April 2, 2020 Show with Dr. Curt Daniel on “The History & Theology of Calvinism”

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April 3, 2020

April 2, 2020 Dr. CURT DANIEL, author & pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, who will address: “The HISTORY & THEOLOGY of CALVINISM”

00:05: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown
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01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
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01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this second day of April, 2020.
01:29: And I have known of my guest today for decades. I've known him, I think, known of him ever since I became a born -again believer in Christ in the 1980s, and especially
01:41: I have known of him because I was saved in a Reformed Baptist church, and he is a well -known and beloved figure amongst
01:48: Reformed Baptists and Reformed people in general. His name is Dr. Kurt Daniel. He's an author and pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.
01:58: He's also well -known as being a Bible, or should I say, a book buyer and seller and collector, and that's how
02:06: I got to know who he is many years ago. And I'm so thrilled that I finally have the opportunity for the very first time ever to have him on the show.
02:15: We're going to be addressing a monumental, nearly 900 -page masterpiece that he has created,
02:23: The History and Theology of Calvinism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time ever,
02:31: Dr. Kurt Daniel. Hello, Chris. It's good to be with you. Well, before I go into your personal testimony of salvation, which many of our listeners know is a tradition on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, when we interview a guest for the first time, they give a summary of their salvation testimony.
02:50: That is, if they are a Christian, there are occasions. Rarely, when I have non -Christians on the show as guests, because they have something of value to say to the body of Christ.
03:00: But for the most part, we have brothers and sisters in Christ interviewed on this program. But before we go into your personal testimony, tell our listeners about Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.
03:13: Okay. I've been pastor here for 25 years. Faith Bible Church is an independent,
03:21: Reformed Baptist church. We have about 100 in attendance. We have two other elders, three deacons, and we're trying to serve
03:30: Christ, especially in this coronavirus national emergency. Well, if anybody wants to get in touch with Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, you can go to faithbibleonline .net,
03:45: faithbibleonline .net. Now, as I already informed our listeners,
03:51: I'd like you to give us a brief summary of your salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere, if any, that you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our
04:03: Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Well, let's see.
04:09: Let's start at the beginning. I was born and raised in New Orleans, and I was raised in a rather liberal church.
04:17: I went to church almost every Sunday. It was a liberal Presbyterian church, but somehow some of the gospel came across.
04:24: Mainly, I heard the gospel by watching Billy Graham preach on television many, many times.
04:30: I even heard him in person once. I had a few Christian friends who witnessed to me, and for many years
04:36: I thought I was a Christian, but I really wasn't. And then, back in those days, it was pretty wild, the hippies and the drug culture and Woodstock and all that sort of lifestyle.
04:48: And I got involved in that, and then the Lord made me feel the burden of my sins and the loneliness and fear of death.
04:58: And a few friends witnessed to me and challenged me to see if I really was a Christian.
05:03: I remember one of them, who had been a missionary's daughter, witnessed to me with tears, rolling down her face and told me about the love of Jesus.
05:14: And then, on May 10, 1972, it happened. Jesus gave me the new birth.
05:20: I repented. I believed in him. I was silently converted. I'm one of those that remembers the day and the hour and the place.
05:27: Some don't, but they are saved. But that's when I was converted, and very soon everything changed, and I began to follow
05:34: Christ. Later, I went to a Bible college, and then seminary, and then postgraduate studies.
05:41: I entered the pastorate, and I'm still following the same Jesus that saved me way back then, almost 50 years ago.
05:49: Praise God. And how did you specifically come to embrace or first discover and then embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as Calvinism, Reformed theology, etc.?
06:01: Well, though it was a Presbyterian church I was raised in, I didn't hear anything about this, or at least
06:06: I don't remember anything about this. I remember in one
06:11: Sunday school class, they said the greatest theologians in history were Paul, John Calvin, and Karl Barth, and they didn't even explain much about that.
06:21: Wow. But I went to Bible college. I transferred in from a state university, and it was a very
06:29: Arminian Pentecostal Bible college, but occasionally they would mention
06:34: Calvinism and more to disprove it. But there was a small local Christian bookshop that a family operated and sold books on the side, and they sold very strongly
06:46: Calvinistic books. And, of course, being a poor student, I wandered in there trying to find inexpensive books, and I'd walk away with box loads.
06:56: But all these authors were totally new to me. Who is Spurgeon, or is that Sturgeon, or Surgeon?
07:03: Who is Arthur Pink, John Calvin? All that was new to me, and I still remember holding a very thick book on predestination.
07:12: In fact, it was called The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Vettner. Oh, yeah.
07:18: That's an awfully big book to be written by a woman. I thought
07:24: Lorraine was a woman's name. Yeah, and Meredith Klein, too. I looked at the picture and I said, oops, and I've read that book several times since then.
07:35: So that was my first introduction, reading these books, and then, of course, discussing it with students.
07:41: Some of them said, this is good stuff, and other ones did not. But that was the start of it all, and then
07:47: I continued to study it, never thinking that would be my life interest. I did my doctorate on the subject of hyper -Calvinism, and I've intended to study the subject in depth ever since.
08:00: You did your doctorate on hyper -Calvinism? Yes, at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland.
08:06: I did a very large doctoral dissertation on hyper -Calvinism, concentrating on John Gill.
08:15: Now, I know a lot of folks that I highly revere.
08:21: In fact, one of them wrote a very glowing commendation, which I'm going to read in a little bit, for your book, who views
08:30: John Gill as a great hero of the faith. Do you disagree with that assessment? No, he is a great hero of the faith, but he was hyper -Calvinist, and I am not a hyper -Calvinist.
08:40: I think I know who you're referring to. There's still a little debate about hyper -Calvinism. Tom Nettles. I can say that.
08:47: Good old Tom Nettles. He's been a good friend of mine for well over 25 years.
08:54: Yes, he disagrees with the assessment that John Gill is a hyper -Calvinist. But, of course, there are disagreements in the body of Christ amongst friends and people who are closely allied on theology and other things.
09:06: I know that Ian Murray views John Gill as a hyper -Calvinist.
09:12: I don't want to sidetrack us too much, but that actually is an important question, because many people, in fact, there may be even many people listening right now, who would view you and I as hyper -Calvinists, because we believe in what
09:29: Calvin taught, to a large extent, anyway. They view any person who believes in the tulip, even four of the points, as a hyper -Calvinist at times.
09:45: Could you please define what historically that actually means? There's misunderstanding about it, usually from people that should know better.
09:54: The late Norman Geisler was very evangelical and wrote a lot of useful things, but on this subject he was rather wrong.
10:00: He said that anybody that believes any or all the five points is an extreme
10:06: Calvinist, a hyper -Calvinist, or whatever. Well, that's just simply not true, historically or theologically.
10:14: Hyper -Calvinism began in 1706 in England, with the publishing of a book by Joseph Hussey, entitled
10:21: God's Operations of Grace, but No Offers of Grace. And the movement has continued mainly in Baptist circles and some
10:33: Dutch Reformed American churches. So there's been a very small splinter, just less than 1 % of all
10:41: Calvinists. The essence of that theology is that God works grace, but he does not offer grace.
10:50: They don't like the word offer. We are to preach, but we don't offer. That sounds like quibbling, but what they mean is when we present the gospel to people, we cannot say
11:02: God loves you or that God desires your salvation, because we don't know if they're elect.
11:09: Hyper -Calvinism says in no way does God desire the salvation of those that are not elect.
11:17: And that many of them say God has absolutely no love for them, even common grace. It's reserved only for the elect.
11:24: Another form of Hyper -Calvinism says faith is a gift, therefore it is not a duty for unbelievers to savingly believe in Christ.
11:34: They have the duty to believe the gospel, but not to savingly believe personally in Christ. Those are the main points of Hyper -Calvinism.
11:42: I have a chapter on my book on that, and I plan to write a very large book on it based upon my doctoral dissertation.
11:52: By the way, I am not, nor ever have been, a Hyper -Calvinist. I count some of them as my friends and beloved brethren in Christ.
12:01: It's an error, but it is not a heresy. Interesting, because I know, again, brethren in Christ, in fact, many whom you know, that would consider, especially the more severe expressions of it, heretical, there are those,
12:20: I mean, it's a diverse group of people. They're not all exactly alike. Some believe that the gate to heaven is a lot wider than you and I would believe.
12:33: Like, for instance, many among the primitive Baptists don't even believe that it is necessary to be a
12:39: Christian to enter into eternity with Christ. And then you have those on the opposite end, like from the
12:46: Netherlands Reformed Church, who have a much more narrow view, a much smaller view, numerically, of those who will enter into heaven.
12:56: But it seems that a commonality is that they deny that the preaching of the gospel and evangelism is a means that God uses to bring the elect to salvation.
13:07: Would you agree with that? Well, the primitive Baptists that you mentioned would say that God is not limited to the gospel.
13:14: He's got elect that will be saved that never hear the gospel. I don't believe that's true.
13:21: I've got a chapter in my book on that, very clearly showing that's unbiblical. Faith comes by hearing.
13:28: Hearing comes by the word of God. Those that don't hear the word of God don't have faith. On the other side, you mentioned certain
13:35: Dutch Reformed people that believe that if you're not a
13:41: Calvinist, you're not a Christian. I remember one of them said so in print, that Arminianism is a false gospel.
13:48: Arminians are not Christians. That is common amongst Hyper -Calvinists. I think that's too narrow.
13:54: There are many very godly Arminians in history. Yes. John Wesley, Billy Graham, A .W.
13:59: Tozer, they had their weaknesses, but they were very godly brothers and sisters in Christ. Let me give our listeners our email address if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr.
14:10: Kurt Daniel. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
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14:43: I understand that. Perhaps you're even a pastor yourself, and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination on something that we're addressing today, and you don't want to identify yourself.
14:54: I completely understand that, too. But only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private issue.
14:59: And if it's a general question, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
15:07: And another thing that I think we should clarify before we move on to the history and theology of Calvinism is your own personal view on the
15:17: Atonement. There have been some, as you know, who have misunderstood your view and have considered you either an
15:25: Amaraldian or a Four -Point Calvinist. And perhaps you could distinguish between what you believe and what the
15:32: Amaraldians believe. Okay, that has been discussed. I guess you could say
15:37: I've been discussed and tested and misunderstood and stood against on the
15:43: Internet. I get letters, but it's usually people who have misunderstood and maybe heard rumors.
15:50: I addressed it in my doctoral dissertation 37 years ago, and in this syllabus, and then in the book
15:56: I clarify it. In my opinion, the mainline historic reform view is this.
16:03: Christ died especially for the elect and guaranteed their salvation, but there's a universal aspect of the
16:11: Atonement for all men, such as it's infinite in value, it's universally sufficient, it's the basis for common grace, the free -off of the gospel, many other non -saving benefits.
16:25: So Amaru himself, who is French, 1600s, said
16:31: Christ died equally for all men. And that's in his brief treatise on predestination, recently translated.
16:39: I do not believe Christ died equally for all men. On the other side of the road is a very high
16:47: Calvinism and hyper -Calvinism that says Christ died only for the elect and there is no universal aspect for the non -elect.
16:57: But in my book I quote a few dozen leading theologians that say Christ died for the elect and there is this universal aspect.
17:05: I quote Jonathan Edwards, Abraham Kuyper, even a few that might be considered hyper -Calvinist, although hypers usually say that it's very restricted only to the elect.
17:19: I quote Lorraine Bettner, John Frame, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, R .C.
17:25: Sproul, and I could go right down the line. And Martin Lloyd -Jones that take this dual view, which
17:32: I think is the main view. It's saying Christ died especially for the elect and guaranteed their salvation, but there is this universal aspect for all men.
17:43: Would this be the view that Andrew Fuller is known for?
17:50: Andrew Fuller, yes, but he is often misunderstood. Michael Haken has clarified this in several places in writings.
18:00: Haken teaches at Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville. Charles Hodge put it well.
18:06: He said there is a sense in which Christ died for all. There is a sense in which he died only for the elect.
18:13: William G .T. Shed said atonement is universal, redemption is limited.
18:19: So there are many ways of saying it, that there is a universal aspect and a particular aspect.
18:26: Now, the particular aspect is limited only to the elect and it guarantees the salvation of the elect.
18:35: And that's what we call limited atonement or particular redemption, a definite atonement, and so forth.
18:43: That's a summary of what I believe. Well, I want to read a few of the commendations for this book because, number one, all of these men that I'm about to read, their commendations, are heroes of mine, and all of them have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, with the exception of Ian Hamilton.
19:07: I want to get Ian Hamilton on the show very soon. And all of them, with the exception of Ian Hamilton, have written glowing endorsements for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as well.
19:19: But first we have John MacArthur. He says, Several years ago, a friend gave me a bound copy of Dr.
19:26: Daniel's notes on the history of Calvinism and the doctrines of grace. I've kept it nearby ever since.
19:33: It's one of the most useful and informative resources in my entire library.
19:38: Well written, crystal clear, and thorough without being ponderous.
19:44: I'm delighted to see this expanded edition in print. And then
19:50: Stephen J. Lawson, president of One Passion Ministries, who is another one of the most powerful preachers alive today, in my opinion.
19:59: This invaluable volume is a virtual goldmine containing the rich history and theology of the
20:06: Reformed truths known as Calvinism. The beauty of this book is its comprehensive breadth and accessible readability that surveys the vast landscape of this immense subject matter.
20:20: Ever since these pages first appeared years ago, it has been a trusted guide to me to navigate my journey through the many pivotal individuals, strategic movements, and doctrinal issues of Biblical Calvinism.
20:38: No serious student of church history or systematic theology can afford to be without this book, without this work,
20:47: I should say, in your personal library. Then we have Tom Nettles, the aforementioned professor of church history, formerly from the
20:58: Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Kurt is a proven scholar and a personal devotee of the doctrines to which he gives such careful attention in this book.
21:10: It does not merely go over the well -known history already present in many volumes, though it does not ignore that, but gives both substance and perspective that is needed today in a time when there is growing renewed interest in these doctrines.
21:27: I personally hope that you will pursue the opportunity to publish this substantial volume, which interacts so thoroughly with Calvinism in its various nuances and denominational expressions.
21:42: And obviously it was published by Evangelical Press, which is why I have this 900 -page hardback sitting at my desk right now.
21:49: Michael Haken, we also just mentioned him briefly before. There is no doubt that Calvinism, even though John Calvin would abhor the term, has played a critical role in the history of the
22:02: Christian faith. Amazingly, though, there have been very few studies that have sought to provide a comprehensive overview of both its history and theology.
22:12: Dr. Daniel's survey of the narrative and thought of this influential worldview does just that, and does it majestically.
22:23: And this textbook, for that is what it truly is, is thus very welcome and will be enormously helpful for all who are interested in this tremendous
22:36: Christian movement. And I'll read one more. Phil Johnson, who actually has been interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio more frequently than any other guest in the history of this show.
22:47: Phil Johnson, who is the Executive Director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur. It will be pretty hard to overstate how helpful
22:56: Kurt Daniel's notes on Calvinism have been in my study of historical theology and the
23:02: Protestant Reformation. He has an uncanny knack for untangling hard theological knots and deftly sweeping away confusion and misunderstanding.
23:14: I have gained more insight from this volume than from any other book on systematic theology or church history.
23:21: And yet this is a resource I can and regularly do recommend to lay people, even those who are just beginning to study theology seriously.
23:37: It's rare and refreshing to find a treatise on theology that is so comprehensive and yet so easy to read.
23:45: This is that book. Get a copy. I promise you. I promise you will thank me for the recommendation.
23:54: And those are very, I've rarely read, and I'm not exaggerating, I've very rarely read commendations that are that glowing hot as far as their enthusiasm and zeal to promote what you have written here.
24:10: I'm very humbled that they think a lot of the book. I was very honored that John MacArthur and Joel Beakey wrote forwards to the book, and I hope that I'm worthy of that, and I hope people are blessed by the book.
24:24: It just appeared one month ago today. Yes, and Dr. Beakey has been a friend for many years.
24:31: In fact, I was involved in Dr. Beakey's very first radio program after he left the
24:38: Netherlands Reformed denomination that I had mentioned earlier, which he left largely due to hyper -Calvinism.
24:45: And he has been one of my favorite preachers and writers ever since I became aware of him.
24:51: Me too. And what I'm going to do is, so I don't stop you mid -sentence, we're going to go to our first station break right now, and then we'll be back shortly.
25:01: If anybody has questions of your own, again, please send them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
25:08: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. If you live outside the
25:14: USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. We'll be right back with Dr.
25:20: Curt Daniel and the history and theology of Calvinism, right after these messages from our sponsors.
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37:19: Well, please go to solid -ground -books .com and make a long list of items and purchase them and say thanks to Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, for being a key sponsor of this broadcast.
37:35: And thank him for adding an extra financial gift, which he did, on top of his advertising bill this month because he knew the urgent need that we are facing here financially.
37:45: We are now back with our guest today, Dr. Kurt Daniel, and we are discussing his book,
37:51: The History and Theology of Calvinism. And we've already got quite a number of listeners lined up to have their questions asked and answered.
38:01: But before we do that, I just want to ask you a question that relates directly to the title.
38:07: There are many people who absolutely reject the doctrines of sovereign grace.
38:14: In fact, you might even say that they despise what is known as Calvinism.
38:20: They think it's absolute heresy, and very often they will say things like,
38:27: Calvinism began with John Calvin. His teachings were novel in the 16th century, never before taught.
38:35: Some might know enough to know that Augustine had many elements of Calvin's teachings before Calvin.
38:44: He was a mentor centuries later to Calvin. But people equally despise
38:53: Augustine who are saying this, and they will say these are not biblical teachings. So how do you respond to, as far as the history of Calvinism, obviously there's a difference between the formalized tulip, which was developed after Calvin, and what we would consider biblical teaching.
39:10: Well, it didn't begin with Calvin. There were people before him that believed basically the same thing.
39:16: Augustine, Gottschalk, John Wycliffe, first translator of the
39:22: Bible into English, basically taught these views. So it wasn't just John Calvin.
39:27: He didn't invent it. There are many others at his time and since then that have taught these things.
39:33: But the main thing is, what does the Bible say? I firmly believe the Bible teaches these things.
39:39: Now, Calvinism isn't just the teaching of Calvin. It's what we would call reformed theology.
39:46: That branch of the Reformation going back to Zwingli, Calvin, Heinrich Bullinger, and others.
39:53: And some would say, well, isn't this just Evangelical Christianity in general? Well, Evangelical Lutheranism, Evangelical Arminianism would be
40:03: Evangelical. Calvinism narrows it down a little bit closer, and historically those historical distinctives have been known as the doctrines of grace or the five points of Calvinism.
40:15: So a large part of my book is showing that, yes, these are biblical, and I have a lot of quotes from people from all ages and different kinds of churches that express their views on these great doctrines.
40:29: So where does your study, your massive book here, where does it begin with the history of Calvinism?
40:38: It begins with what I call pre -Calvinism, the very first chapter. It talks about Augustine and these others through the ages that were formulating these distinctive doctrines up until the time of the
40:52: Reformation. So about a fourth of the book is a historical survey of pre -Calvinism, the
40:59: Reformation, the Puritans, American Calvinism, and the different branches and varieties of what can be called
41:08: Calvinism or reformed theology. Now, what would you say, from your experience and even your study of written teachings by anti -Calvinists, what do you surmise is the most central reason why those who are anti -Calvinists despise these teachings so much?
41:33: Well, they would say it's not taught in the Bible. The one that they get most vociferous about is their objection, it's not fair.
41:43: It's not fair for God to choose some and not others. It's not fair that if we are totally depraved and unable to believe, it wouldn't be fair for God to condemn us.
41:54: Therefore, we have to be able to repent and believe and obey God when I'm totally depraved.
42:00: So they go through the five points of Calvinism and one by one say, it's not biblical and this is not fair.
42:07: By the way, in the book I answer quite a few of their objections biblically. Well, for those of our listeners,
42:14: I mean, I have an overwhelming confidence that the majority of my audience is
42:20: Calvinistic, but I do have listeners that join the audience nearly daily that I'm aware of who are new
42:30: Christians. Some of them are not Calvinists at all. Some of them don't even understand it. Some are not even
42:35: Christians at all. I have Muslim listeners. I have Roman Catholic listeners and even members of cults who listen.
42:44: But the five points of Calvinism, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance and preservation of the saints.
42:55: In summary form, could you let our listeners know what these teachings are and I know that's difficult in summary form, but what is the most compelling reasons why
43:08: Christians should believe in them? Obviously, you and I agree that they're biblical.
43:14: That's really the most important reason. But how these doctrines affect our understanding of God, our self -awareness of the condition that we are in as men and women and children, and how it affects the way we evangelize and so on.
43:33: Big question. I think you put your finger on it in the middle of that. It gets back to our view of God.
43:40: You may have heard of the great Errol Hulse, a good friend of mine. Oh yeah, I went home to be with the
43:46: Lord not long ago. And many years ago he shared with me a profound thought. He says, Kurt, all errors in doctrinal practice can be traced back to a wrong view of God.
43:57: So, the doctrines of grace are based upon a certain view of the sovereignty of God.
44:06: So in the doctrines section of my book I have a number of chapters on the sovereignty of God, His foreknowledge of all things,
44:15: His absolute predestination of all things that come to pass, the freedom of God, things like this.
44:22: And that God being sovereign is not answerable to man.
44:28: God is God. He does whatever He wants to and can never be blamed. He's not the author of sin.
44:34: For example, the objection, that's not fair. The Bible answers that in several places.
44:40: It says in the book of Job, He gives no accounting of all His works. Romans 9, who are you, old man, that replies against God?
44:48: This particularly comes out in areas of sin. For example, if we say
44:55: God is sovereign, does that mean He foreordained the existence of sin? Well, the Bible says
45:00: He foreordained everything for His own glory. Even the existence of sin shows the glory of God.
45:06: Why did He foreordain sin? To reveal either His wrath in punishing it or His grace in forgiving it.
45:14: Why does God allow disasters and evil to continue in the world, ultimately for His own glory?
45:21: For example, why does God allow the coronavirus outbreak right now? Number one, it's a warning to unbelievers.
45:28: It's also an opportunity for them to turn to Christ and be saved. Why does God allow bad things to happen in the life of Christians?
45:36: A number of reasons. To humble them, to have them experience more of God's mercy, help them be sympathetic with others that are suffering.
45:45: These things are not beyond the control of God. God is absolutely sovereign.
45:52: Does that help answer your question? Oh, that's beautiful. And in fact, I will start taking listener questions in just a moment, but I wanted to ask one of my own here.
46:06: In reading the commendations for this work of yours by greatly beloved heroes of the
46:15: Reformed faith, I can't remember who said this. In fact, it may have been repeated amongst several of them.
46:22: But you have information that you address in detail in your book that is not something that's been repeated in works before yours.
46:34: You could fill a library with books written on Calvinism, both pro and con.
46:41: Even just pro -Calvinist literature could fill a library.
46:47: But what is it about your book that is unique, and what are the specific issues that were mentioned that are really in some ways new or at least addressed in a more exhaustive manner in your book?
47:01: Well, a lot of it is simply presenting what is mainstream
47:06: Calvinism. For example, I have well over a thousand quotes from leading
47:11: Calvinists in the past. But so far as some original contributions, I build upon the shoulders of great theologians like my favorite,
47:20: Jonathan Edwards, and keep bringing us back to the center of gravity of what
47:25: God wants from us. What does God really want from us? He wants us to love him, the first and greatest commandment of all.
47:33: And so I try to bring out how these wonderful truths, as profound as they are, should touch our hearts and move us to love
47:43: Jesus more. There's no greater privilege or duty than loving Christ.
47:48: So I try to make it experimental to the heart as well as applicable in the life. And that's one of the things
47:55: I hope is a contribution of my book. Okay, great. We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks,
48:04: I have heard that the great Anglican bishop from the 19th century, J .C. Ryle, was
48:10: Amaraldian. Is that true, or does he have a view that's closer to yours? His view and mine are very similar.
48:18: He's one of my favorite writers. In the book I have several quotes, usually from his expository thoughts on the
48:26: Gospels, showing that Christ died especially for the elect, but not only for the elect.
48:32: There is a general aspect for the non -elect. Some would consider that Amaraldian.
48:38: But to be precise, Amaral believed Christ died equally for all, and there is nothing distinctive just for the elect.
48:46: So Ryle did not believe that, you're saying? No, Ryle believed that there is something distinctly for the elect and not for the non -elect.
48:56: And so that's why I quote him. So in that sense, he would not be an Amaraldian. Well, I better stop spreading that rumor then.
49:03: I always thought he was. I used to think that too. But further investigation, it's useful to get documentation on what people held, say on the extent of the atonement.
49:15: Well, thank you, Susan Margaret. And guess what? You have won a free copy of this monumental work by Dr.
49:22: Kurt Daniel, The History and Theology of Calvinism. Just make sure that we have your full mailing address, so that CVBBS .com,
49:29: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that out to you. We want to thank Evangelical Press for providing these giveaway copies, and we want to thank
49:38: CVBBS for doing the mailing for us so that there's no expense that is required on behalf of Iron Sharpens Iron.
49:48: We have a first -time questioner. And the questioner, this is
49:56: JB from Amarillo, Texas. And JB says,
50:01: Around 20 years ago, we saw an unexpected sudden surge in the popularity of Reformed theology.
50:08: Recently, it appears, this movement has been tearing itself apart from the inside out.
50:14: What do you think is responsible for this? I don't mean describe what's happening. I mean what is causing the self -destruction.
50:21: And he has a second question that I'll follow up after we take our next break. I'm not quite sure where these areas of self -destruction that he refers to are, but I have seen some in Reformed Baptist circles, and Dutch Reformed, Presbyterian, and other ones.
50:42: But then you would find it even in non -Reformed circles. Unfortunately, this often happens in Christian churches.
50:50: They wound their own brethren, and they should not be. We should love each other.
50:56: Sometimes it's a matter of personality, or someone just simply gets tired of the same things.
51:02: He wants something new, and so he gets a little argumentative more than he should be. The Bible says we should strive to keep the peace in the body of Christ, and in the bond of love.
51:14: That's not compromising truth. But as I said, we are to love God, but the second commandment is to love one another as well.
51:22: Yes, he may be referring, I don't know, and perhaps JB can clarify.
51:27: But perhaps he is talking about what has been called the neo -Calvinists, the young, restless, and Reformed movements.
51:39: Perhaps he's talking about that. I don't know. Well, the so -called resurgence began earlier, and then it spread to a younger generation in the late 1990s.
51:52: They got really excited. They were the young, restless, and Reformed. They would attend the
51:58: P4G conference and ones like this. Often they had more heat than light, and we would call them the new
52:08: Calvinist syndrome, where they're in the cage stage, where they always want to talk about and argue, and often in a very rude manner, and they need to grow up to become a little bit more humble and charitable with others with whom they disagree.
52:25: That may be what your friend is referring to. Yes, and aren't many of the new
52:32: Calvinists so -called emphasizing a retreat from the small town with more emphasis on inner -city evangelism and things like that?
52:44: Well, perhaps. Some of them do go to the next stage, and they say, well, when
52:52: I was at that stage, I was a little bit too argumentative. I remember something that the great
52:58: George Whitefield said toward the end of his life. He said, young Whitefield said some things that old
53:03: Whitefield wished he had not said until he had learned more, and I think that's true of many of us.
53:09: It's like zeal not according to knowledge, or zeal with a little bit of knowledge needs to be tempered with humility, among other things.
53:19: Well, J .B., if you want to clarify your question at all after we come back from the break, you could submit another email if you'd like, and of course we have a long line now, so hopefully we'll be able to get to you before the end of the program.
53:33: But make sure you give us your mailing address, because you have won also a free copy of The History and Theology of Calvinism by Dr.
53:42: Kurt Daniel, and since you are a first -time questioner, you've also won a free
53:47: New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will ship it out to you along with your book.
53:57: And we are going to our midway break right now, and folks, please be patient with us as we go to this midway break, because it's a longer break than we normally have, and that is because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
54:10: FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show, because they air this program in a pre -recorded format twice daily, in morning drive and in the evening, and they have to localize their programming, according to the
54:28: FCC, to Lake City, Florida. So, while they air their own public service announcements and localized announcements, we air our globally heard commercials.
54:39: Please patronize our advertisers as much as you can, in order to further ensure
54:45: Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio remaining on the air, and in order to do so, write down the information of as many of our advertisers as you can, and consider even those that you would never likely be able to personally take benefit from, like a church that might be on the other side of the country, why not write them a letter thanking them for their support of Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio?
55:12: Why not even send them a financial gift to thank them, especially during this time when many churches are suffering financially, because of the coronavirus scare, why not thank them for their support of Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio with a financial gift?
55:28: But regardless, please try to patronize our advertisers as much as you can, write down the information so that you can more frequently and successfully do so, and also send us a question for Dr.
55:38: Curt Daniel at chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away,
55:44: God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Dr. Curt Daniel. When Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
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58:53: Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.
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01:00:05: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, this is
01:00:12: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
01:00:20: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:00:32: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
01:00:41: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
01:00:48: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:00:57: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:01:02: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:01:11: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:01:18: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:01:41: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:01:51: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:01:58: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:02:05: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
01:02:10: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
01:02:24: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
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01:02:40: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.
01:02:50: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.
01:03:09: When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?
01:03:17: Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host, Chris Arnson, and Pastor Joe Jacowicz as they explore
01:03:25: God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at firstloveradio .org.
01:03:34: That's firstloveradio .org. Each Friday at 1 p .m.
01:03:39: Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org.
01:03:46: Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. To hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.
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01:05:07: James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the
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01:05:53: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
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01:07:54: This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:08:02: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
01:08:11: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
01:08:23: Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.
01:08:30: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:08:43: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:08:53: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
01:09:01: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign
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01:11:35: or call them, first go to solid -ground -books .com, another one of our advertisers, book -related, because these are two different kinds of book -related advertisers.
01:11:46: Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher, cvbbs is only a distributor.
01:11:52: So therefore, you could kill two birds with one stone and help both of our advertisers by going to solid -ground -books .com,
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01:12:25: Before we return to our guest, Dr. Kurt Daniel, to discuss his monumental work,
01:12:32: The History and Theology of Calvinism, published by Evangelical Press, monumental 900 -page hardback, before we return to that discussion,
01:12:42: I want to remind you of a couple of things. First of all, unless there are going to be prolonged bans on public gatherings extending into May, we are still intending to conduct our next spring free
01:13:00: Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon, featuring, for the very first time ever, my dear friend,
01:13:07: Dr. Conrad M. Beyway, pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and also the former chancellor and now lecturer at the
01:13:17: African Christian University. Dr. M. Beyway has been a friend of mine since 1995. The church where I was a member on Long Island, New York, at that time, was the very first American church that Dr.
01:13:30: M. Beyway preached at, visiting America for the very first time from Africa.
01:13:35: And we have maintained a friendship all these years. He is truly,
01:13:41: I believe, the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth. So he is going to be giving a presentation, God willing, to all the pastors and men in ministry leadership present at the
01:13:51: Iron Sharpen's Iron Pastors Luncheon, which will be held for the very first time, God willing, at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and this is all free of charge.
01:14:01: It has been ever since the 1990s when my precious late wife, Julie, came up with the idea to have these pastors' luncheons every year, and we began them in the 1990s, and we are now continuing them in her honor and memory and in tribute to my late wife after she went home to glory for eternity with Christ.
01:14:22: When I moved to Pennsylvania, I relaunched these luncheons in 2015, and I hope that the
01:14:29: Lord enables us to have one this May. That's Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. Mark that on your calendar in the event that there has been a lifting of the bans on public gatherings exceeding 10 people.
01:14:45: So I hope that you send me an e -mail soon so I can register you absolutely free, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:14:51: chrisarnson at gmail .com, and just put luncheon in the subject line. And keep in mind, folks, not only will you be hearing
01:14:58: Dr. Mbewe for free and being fed a sumptuous lunch from the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania for free, you'll also be leaving with a heavy sack of free brand -new books that I have personally selected that have been donated by major publishers all over the
01:15:16: United States and the United Kingdom, and that is another really huge bonus that you'll be blessed with.
01:15:24: If you are a man in ministry leadership, women are not invited to this event. It is strictly a male leadership invitation for the
01:15:34: Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Put luncheon in the subject line.
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01:18:12: And if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.
01:18:17: As long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we really do need your advertising dollars desperately.
01:18:27: Also, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one,
01:18:32: I urge you to please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line because you are living in rebellion against God if you're not even prayerfully looking for a church.
01:18:45: There is no such thing as a maverick, lone wolf, lone ranger Christian in the
01:18:50: New Testament. Every obedient member of the body of Christ is under the submission or should
01:18:57: I say under the headship in submission to local elders in a local biblically faithful church.
01:19:04: So therefore, rectify that situation. Send me an email. I may be able to help you. I've already helped many people all over the world find churches near where they live.
01:19:12: I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet Earth and I may be able to help you. I may be able to help you find a church where you're going on vacation or to help you find a church for family, friends, and loved ones who are without a church.
01:19:24: Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.
01:19:32: Kurt Daniel on the issue that we are addressing today, the history and theology of Calvinism. chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:19:38: and we have a clarification. I'll let him jump to the head of the line again.
01:19:45: JB in Amarillo, Texas said that I was asking about the most recent splits caused by things like social justice warrior fights that turn to the left of groups like Together for the
01:20:03: Gospel and so on. So that was a little clarification. I don't know if you want to add anything,
01:20:09: Dr. Daniel, about that last question that we had before the break where JB has clarified what he was talking about.
01:20:17: Well, I haven't followed that too closely, just enough to realize that it's an in -house debate that should not cause serious division.
01:20:27: There are good men on both sides. Christians should be involved in preaching the gospel as well as meeting physical needs, social needs.
01:20:36: Remember, preaching the gospel comes first. Jesus came primarily to die for our sins and to preach the gospel.
01:20:43: Feeding the 5 ,000 and healing was subservient to that, but it was not without that.
01:20:50: The two go together. That's about as much as I can say at this time. Okay, let's see.
01:20:57: We have Cynthia who is in Findlay, Ohio, and her question is, let's see.
01:21:09: Oh, she just, I'm not sure what she is asking here. It says Lorraine Bettner, but I don't see any question.
01:21:16: It just says, hey, I heard that. I don't really know what that means. Maybe it was my comment about wondering if that was a male or female.
01:21:25: Oh, that's right. By the way, I spent an afternoon with him a few months before he died.
01:21:34: Delightful fellowship. I recommend the book. Yes, and that is a clarification on Dr. Kurtz's reference, that joke he told earlier,
01:21:45: Lorraine Bettner was a man. Okay, we have, let's see here.
01:21:51: We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings, brothers Chris and Dr. Daniels.
01:21:57: It's Daniel, by the way, singular. I find a lot of people immediately criticize me when they find out
01:22:07: I'm a Calvinist. I usually let them, let's see. I usually tell them that it is biblical
01:22:15: Christianity. How do you handle these situations when you're faced with them?
01:22:21: Obviously, this could take five programs to answer that question, but if you could say anything in summary form, how do you, what's one of the ways or some of the ways in summary form that you respond to people that are anti -Calvinists who don't think it's biblical?
01:22:37: Well, in a friendly, humble way, without compromise, and go to the scriptures, and know your scriptures, and refer to them in order to answer their objections.
01:22:49: Realize also they may be arguing against something we don't believe. They may have a wrong view of what we believe.
01:22:56: If we explain it properly, some of them might say, well, that's what I believe, or they might say,
01:23:03: I've never seen those Bible verses. Can we go over those again? We also need to back it up with a holy life, because if we're living a disobedient life, that's not a good advertisement for the doctrines of grace.
01:23:17: Okay, Grady, you have won a free copy of the book we are addressing, The History and Theology of Calvinism, and we thank
01:23:26: Grady from the bottom of our hearts here at Iron Trip and Zion Radio for his faithful financial support of this program, and we hope that you continue to support us, and keep listening to us, and spread the word about us in Asheboro, North Carolina, and beyond.
01:23:42: We have Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly,
01:23:47: H -O -S -C -H -T -O -N, and Anthony asks, and I have to enlarge
01:23:55: Anthony's question, because it is microscopic in his email, so I'm going to repeat our email address while I'm doing that.
01:24:02: It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, if you have a question, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
01:24:11: Chris, what does Dr. Daniel believe, I don't know why he's asking me, is the most effective way to live and teach these truths today, in the light of so many websites dedicated to casting aspersions on these teachings, suggesting there were
01:24:28: Gnostic roots, and other ignorant kinds of objections. He has a second question that I will follow up with after you answer that.
01:24:38: So basically, what is your answer to the accusation that Calvinism is rooted in a form of Gnosticism?
01:24:46: Well, first I would laugh, because that is silly. It's got nothing to do with Gnosticism, such as what
01:24:54: John and Paul opposed in the time of the New Testament. It's got nothing to do with Gnosticism.
01:24:59: It's no secret revelations of hidden truths that only a few
01:25:04: Christians have discovered. No, it's right there in the Bible. I don't generally interact with screeds, blogs, things like that on the internet, that are not worthy of attention.
01:25:17: They need to search the scriptures and learn more about what they're talking about. Otherwise, they're talking about what they don't know.
01:25:24: You remember how the Bible mentions people such as that. So you can't fight every battle.
01:25:30: You need to choose your battle. Do it friendly, but know the Word of God. That's the main thing to say.
01:25:36: Here's what the Bible says. Do you have a problem with that? Let me also say that people often misunderstand.
01:25:44: One of the common objections is, well, Calvinism kills missions. Calvinists don't evangelize.
01:25:50: Well, first off, there are a lot of non -Calvinists that don't evangelize either. But these doctrines should be an incentive to witness, not a hindrance.
01:26:00: It certainly hasn't stopped me from witnessing. I regularly preach the gospel at nursing homes. I have a prison ministry.
01:26:06: I preach hundreds of times in the open air evangelistically. If we show them in our life that we put these things into practice in a biblical way, that will answer a lot of the objections that people have.
01:26:21: Thank you, Anthony. Please make sure we have your mailing address, because you have also won this wonderful book by Dr.
01:26:28: Kurt Daniel, The History and Theology of Calvinism. We thank, again, Evangelical Press for providing us with these giveaway copies of this very expensive and large book.
01:26:39: We also thank CVBBS .com for shipping it out to our listeners free of charge to us.
01:26:49: I forgot to read the second question from JB in Amarillo, Texas.
01:26:56: I apologize, JB. I said I was going to read it when we came back from the midway break.
01:27:02: Is there anything we can do to repair the church splits and so on that he was talking about and get back to where we were 10 years ago and when everything was rolling along wonderfully?
01:27:16: I don't know. Was it ever rolling along wonderfully? Well, let's say we hit a bump in the road, and if someone said or did something that was untoward, he needs to apologize.
01:27:29: That's a way to bring about reconciliation, also be willing to forgive, also to see what are the major issues worth going to the mat on, and at the same time, we can agree or disagree on these things.
01:27:44: Those are some biblical principles without compromise that I think can help bring reconciliation.
01:27:51: We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says,
01:27:58: Do you think that Reformed Baptists are far too often guilty of splitting hairs and having infighting dominate their presence because they rightfully want to be meticulous about preserving biblical truth, but they wrongfully react to those who disagree on some secondary and tertiary issues with too much hostility and too much negativity?
01:28:27: Good point, and it's not Reformed Baptists. Baptists in general tend to do a lot of fighting, not just the
01:28:35: Fundamentalist Baptists either. There are far more varieties of Baptists than there are of any other persuasion amongst
01:28:42: Christians in America. He did bring up one good point. When a person objects to the doctrines of grace, to me,
01:28:51: I will often say, I respect and appreciate the fact that you value truth so much that you want to challenge error, even if that isn't really error, because a lot of people, they don't seem to worry about what anybody believes.
01:29:07: In a postmodernist view, so I'd say, thank you for at least valuing truth enough to want to argue about it, but we need to do it in a biblical,
01:29:15: Christlike way. All right, John, and make sure we have your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine, so we can have cvbbs .com
01:29:25: ship you out a free copy of The History and Theology of Calvinism, which you have also won by sending in your question.
01:29:32: And again, I am losing my memory badly today. I think it's just because I'm so excited about this subject.
01:29:39: But Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia, had a second question that I overlooked. Do you think using confessions of faith and solid catechisms are the way to go alongside of solid preaching of these truths, meaning
01:29:52: Calvinism, of course? Yes and no. In the book, I state that, I quote the confessions and creeds to show what
01:30:01: Calvinists have believed what the Bible says. They are not authority scriptures, or soloscripture.
01:30:07: But then some people think this is some new innovation. And we say, no, this is what many churches have believed for centuries, and we show them in the confessions of faith.
01:30:19: Just like in my book, I quote hundreds and hundreds of different writers, not as authority, but as illustrations in the way a preacher will quote someone in one of his sermons.
01:30:31: Does that help? Yes, it does. And one thing that I'd like to add is that perhaps you disagree with what
01:30:40: I'm about to say, but when I have spoken to anti -confessional brothers in Christ, most of whom are not
01:30:48: Reformed, but some are in the Reformed family, I say everybody is confessional whether you want to call it that or not because once you write down anything you believe, you are really stating what you have summarized from the
01:31:04: Bible, which is all a confession and a creed is. I can remember years ago going to a
01:31:10: Church of Christ conference, and one of the individuals involved in the conference got up and said that we as a church have never had confessions and creeds other than the
01:31:23: Bible and Christ Himself. We don't have man -written creeds. And I stood up and raised my hand and I said, excuse me,
01:31:31: I have a tract from your narthex in your church here that lists all the things that you believe, that you believe in strictly a cappella singing, that you believe in baptism by immersion for the forgiveness of sins, etc.
01:31:45: I said this is a confession whether you call it that or not. So how do you respond to what I just said? Almost everybody has some written document, even if they don't tell their people about it.
01:31:55: I knew a church in another locality of the United States that emphasized they do not have a confession of faith and they never will.
01:32:06: And they ended up firing one of their teachers. And then the teacher later found out the church did have a confession that was legally binding because it had been filed with the state, but they never gave it to the preacher.
01:32:17: But they still had one nevertheless, sometimes in the trust deeds of a local church or tax deductibility or something.
01:32:25: But that's not the main thing. The main thing is what does the Bible itself teach? What say the scriptures?
01:32:32: Great. And I'm going to read the question from my next listener and have you answer it when we come back from our final break.
01:32:42: I already know right now that I want to have you come back if you are willing to come back for another interview at some point.
01:32:52: Because we've just scratched the surface, obviously, of this discussion. But we have
01:32:58: Michael in Princeton, New Jersey. My own personal experience with initial rejection and ultimate acceptance of the
01:33:07: Reformed Baptist theology started with thinking that the doctrines of grace made
01:33:13: God the author of evil and was heretical. It wasn't until I encountered the writings of Greg Bonson and Gordon Clark on the issue of theodicy the defense of God in the midst of evil and pain and listened to defenders instead of the attackers that I came to recognize the misinterpretations of the attackers.
01:33:39: Could you please explain your own personal understanding of why Calvinism does not make God the author of evil?
01:33:45: I would greatly appreciate your viewpoint on this critical issue and I believe it keeps many from recognizing its truth.
01:33:53: That's excellent. Michael, thank you. We're going to our final break and we'll have you answer that question when we return,
01:34:01: Dr. Daniel. If anybody wants to join us, please email us immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:34:07: ChrisArnson at gmail .com ChrisArnson at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:39:59: Welcome back. This is our final segment of today's interview with Dr. Kurt Daniel.
01:40:05: He's already expressed his interest in accepting my invitation to return at a future date that we will determine after the program is over.
01:40:13: If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, I would do so very quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.
01:40:20: Our email address, again, is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
01:40:27: And Michael in Princeton, New Jersey, as you probably recall before the break, basically said that one of the primary concerns that non -Calvinists or anti -Calvinists have is that they believe we are making
01:40:41: God the author of evil, which they find abhorrent. So how do you respond to that? This is probably the most popular objection that unbelievers throw at believers, but also unbelievers throw at Calvinists.
01:40:56: I've got a whole chapter on the origin of sin in the Bible. This man quoted
01:41:01: Gordon Clark. I quote him as well. Here's a brief summary. The Bible says that God's foreordained everything that comes to pass.
01:41:10: Romans 11 .36 Of him, through him, and to him are all things to whom be glory forever.
01:41:15: Ephesians 1 .11 God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.
01:41:21: He's the first cause, but he uses second causes. They're the ones that are to be called the author or the ones to be blamed for sin.
01:41:31: That includes ourselves. But also Satan. Jesus says he's the father of lies.
01:41:37: And yet, as Luther said, Satan is God's devil. Job 1. God allows
01:41:43: Satan to go and test. He allowed Satan to test Jesus. James 1 says
01:41:49: God never tempts anybody himself, but he allows people to be tested and tempted by the devil.
01:41:56: God himself tempts no man. He never promotes sin. He never approves of it.
01:42:02: Perhaps another great illustration is the cross. The worst sin in all history was the murder of the
01:42:08: Son of God. But there are three or four verses that tell us God himself foreordained it as a means to bring in a greater good, namely the salvation of the elect and the glory of God's grace.
01:42:21: As I said earlier, God foreordained the existence of sin to show his attribute of holy wrath in punishing it or holy love in forgiving it.
01:42:34: Isaiah 45 .7 is another verse that has bearing on this. God says, I form the light and create darkness.
01:42:40: I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. There's still much mystery.
01:42:46: How can God foreordain it in a way that he is not blamed for that? That is probably one of the unrevealed secrets that Deuteronomy 29 .29
01:42:56: tells us about. We should not probe into unrevealed secrets. Secret things belong to the
01:43:02: Lord our God. Lastly, I guess you could say, does God presently allow evil and sin to operate in the world?
01:43:10: Obviously he does because it exists. So if God now allows it without being blamed for it, what's wrong with him foreordaining to allow it without being blamed for it?
01:43:22: Here's a brief summary of some of our answers. Great. And make sure we have your mailing address,
01:43:29: Michael, so that cvbbs .com can ship this book out to you,
01:43:34: The History and Theology of Calvinism, compliments of Evangelical Press, and cvbbs .com.
01:43:39: We have Ron in Petersburg, Illinois. He's a first -time questioner, so he's also going to win a
01:43:47: New American Standard Bible on top of the book. If you could ask John Calvin one question regarding the church of today in America and its greatest need or shortcoming in its function, what do you think his answer would be?
01:44:05: Well, I think I know which Ron this is, but this is a question I haven't really thought about.
01:44:11: If Calvin or Jonathan Edwards or Spurgeon from the past could be brought up to the present, what would they make of American Christianity?
01:44:19: They'd say it's very shallow, it needs to be more biblical, we need to throw out some of the silliness and get back to a holy view of who
01:44:27: God really is, submit to His sovereignty, obey His law, love God more, love your families, and be as Christlike as you possibly can.
01:44:37: I think that's what Calvin would probably say. These were great giants in the past. The average
01:44:43: Christian today is a midget compared to those great men. We can learn from great teachers in the past.
01:44:50: They're not infallible, only the Bible is. But when we read them, that kind of charges our batteries to say,
01:44:56: I want to be like them. Those were great godly men and women of the past. I hope that's a brief answer that helps.
01:45:04: Thanks, Ron. And make sure you give me your full mailing address in Illinois, so that you'll not only receive the book by Dr.
01:45:12: Daniel for free, but you'll also receive a New American Standard Bible for free. We have Charlie in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
01:45:18: In fact, I'm going to give Charlie his full name, because he's been a guest on this program. And he's also a former colleague of Ken Ham.
01:45:27: He is the founder of Six Day Creation. I believe it's .com.
01:45:32: I'll verify that in a second. I always forget whether it's .com or .org. But Charlie has a question.
01:45:40: And he says, I have some friends who claim to be four -point Calvinists.
01:45:45: The point missing is L, limited atonement. Please explain why that is the most difficult point to accept.
01:45:54: Probably the most difficult point to accept, because there are verses that talk about Christ dying for the world, all people, and verses like that.
01:46:05: Also, we have to preach the gospel to all people. Those do bring out the universal aspect of the atonement, as I said at the beginning of the broadcast.
01:46:15: They need to be balanced with other verses that concentrate on the particular aspect of the atonement.
01:46:22: Jesus laid down his life for his friends, John 15, for the church, Acts 20, 28, his bride,
01:46:29: Ephesians 5, 25. Verses like that. When you see those two sides of the same coin, you say, yes, there's the for all as well as for the some alone.
01:46:42: And we can't just concentrate on one. That would be like saying, well, Jesus is only a man because it says he's a man.
01:46:49: The other verses that also say he's God, so he's both. Well, thank you,
01:46:56: Charlie. And I did verify that it is sixdaycreation .com for Charlie's website.
01:47:03: And the word six is spelled out, S -I -X. sixdaycreation .com Thank you,
01:47:09: Charlie, for the excellent question. Going back to that very same question,
01:47:17: I have heard friends of mine and folks that I admire who are not friends of mine,
01:47:24: I've not gotten to know them, but who are on the same page with me theologically regarding the doctrines of grace who have said that no matter how much people protest against limited atonement, they're really very often, if not always, and even if it's subconsciously, they're really first and foremost opposed to unconditional election.
01:47:49: They don't like the fact that their scheme of evangelism has been ruined or has been complicated because they really have a gospel that they present to strangers or people that they know are lost where they are claiming to these people that God loves them in the same way, with the same intensity, to the same measure as He loves
01:48:20: Christians, and so on. Do you believe that that's an accurate assessment, that people just don't like the fact that there is a fixed number of the elect and that there are people...
01:48:32: Oh yes, some have said it just like that. The Bible says God has a general love for everybody.
01:48:37: Psalm 145 .7 He also has a special love for His people in that that spills over into election.
01:48:45: He has a general call for all people, but God has chosen only some. Spurgeon once said,
01:48:51: Why shouldn't Jesus Christ have the right to choose His own bride? Why shouldn't God have the right to choose whoever
01:48:58: He wishes? And we have to remember two things. Number one, God is sovereign and absolutely holy.
01:49:06: Secondly, mankind is responsible and guilty.
01:49:12: We can never blame God if He chooses some and not others. What's unfair about Him not choosing unbelievers that prefer their sins?
01:49:21: Nothing unfair about God sending them to hell or passing them by. Nothing is unfair about that.
01:49:27: God is holy, and we are in no place to question the sovereignty or justice of God.
01:49:35: We have to be amazed. Why does God bother to choose anybody? We're all dirty, rotten sinners that deserve to go to hell.
01:49:44: We shouldn't be worried. Why does God pass over some sinners? We should wonder, why doesn't
01:49:49: God pass over all sinners? We're all guilty. It's a wonderful thing that God chose some.
01:49:55: Also, there is the general aspect that God does have a love for all people in that sense we can tell them, yes,
01:50:03: God does love you. With these provisos, that will answer some of the objections of our friends.
01:50:09: We have a listener in England who just wants to send his greetings to you, and I apologize if I'm butchering the pronunciation of where you are in England, but it looks like Oswestry, Shropshire, England, and his name is
01:50:26: Dr. Digby, and he says, just pass on my greetings to Kurt. We have communicated only by email, so nice to hear his voice.
01:50:35: Enjoying listening to him very much, and to Chris, too. That's got to be
01:50:41: Digby James. God bless you, brother. Yeah, that's right. Stay well and be blessed. Yes, it is,
01:50:47: Dr. Digby James. And please, brother, keep spreading the word about this show in the
01:50:54: United Kingdom and beyond. We always love to hear from overseas listeners in unexpected places.
01:51:01: Digby helped with this book, by the way. Oh, he did? Yes. Well, I'd like you, before we get too far into the program with just minutes ahead of us,
01:51:16: I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding this subject before we get to any more listener questions if we have time for them.
01:51:27: These wonderful biblical truths should move us to a wonderful awe and worship of God, and even more so to a deep, deep love of the
01:51:41: Lord Jesus Christ. They should humble us to have tears of love for the Lord Jesus.
01:51:47: Twice in the book, I quote my favorite theologian, Jonathan Edwards, on one of the most moving, profound things
01:51:53: I have ever read in the thousands of books I have ever read. He said, If holiness in the
01:52:00: Creator chiefly consists of love to Himself, then holiness in the creature must consist primarily in love for the
01:52:12: Creator. I think he nails it. Let's worship Him and love Him all the more.
01:52:19: Amen. We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks,
01:52:24: In regard to the divisions amongst Reformed Baptists who agree on most points, how do you respond to the level of importance the division over the impassibility of God is, which seems to be the most recent issue dividing conservative, confessional
01:52:43: Reformed Baptists? Well, I remember when that came to a head two or three years ago and one of the associations split.
01:52:51: Frankly, I think it was an overblown controversy. Very few of the great theologians or confessions give much attention to impassibility.
01:53:02: And I think that Christians should not argue as much as they can on that issue, because when all is said and done, there's more agreement than disagreement on that one issue.
01:53:16: Yes. The fine line seems to be, from what
01:53:22: I gather, that those that are not in full subscription with the 1689
01:53:28: Confession over impassibility still regard themselves confessional because they agree that God does not have passions just like men.
01:53:40: God doesn't fly off the handle and lose His temper. Well, it did have to do with full subscription because the word is found in the 1689
01:53:48: Confession. When you find out what the different sides believe, they both believe
01:53:54: God has emotions, but He does not have weak emotions where He falls helplessly in love or loses
01:54:02: His temper. With those provisos, you find out the differences are not as big as some people would make them.
01:54:09: There seems to be a difference. God most certainly does have emotions, but He does not have passions. That is a weak emotion that is out of control.
01:54:18: Well, there seems to be a difference also over the changing of emotion, of how God could be pleased with somebody and then kindle in His wrath against somebody.
01:54:29: There seems to be a confusion about that, how God's... Well, that's the mystery of grace. Chris, how can
01:54:36: God love people that He is angry with? It's grace. We are children of God, Ephesians 2, 3, and yet that same letter says that God gives grace to the undeserved that He is angry with.
01:54:47: The mystery of grace. That's right. Let's see.
01:54:53: We have C .J. in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, New York.
01:54:59: And C .J. asks, What do you think about Calvinists who think that you cannot enter into heaven if you are
01:55:09: Arminian, and also you cannot enter into heaven if you are a Calvinist, so -called, who thinks
01:55:16: Arminians are saved? You touched on that earlier. Yes. That's a disturbing thing.
01:55:24: The extreme Arminians, like the Sassanians, it leads to liberalism.
01:55:29: That's a rejection of the gospel. But evangelical Arminians definitely are approved, and they believe the same basic gospel.
01:55:37: So I would consider John Wesley, A .W. Tozer, people like this, they are evangelical
01:55:42: Arminians that are brethren, and we should consider them such. In the book I quote a number of leading
01:55:48: Calvinists that say virtually the same thing, Spurgeon, Ian Murray, and others. And so we need to see that Arminianism is an error on one side of the road,
01:56:01: Hyper -Calvinism on the other, but I consider both of them brethren in Christ. And I would want to say to the
01:56:08: Arminians that say Calvinists are not Christians, I would say, now wait a second, that's going too far as well.
01:56:14: We are your brethren, and we hope you consider us to be your brethren as well. Now we're talking about evangelical
01:56:20: Calvinists, evangelical Arminians. Is there non -evangelical
01:56:26: Calvins? Well, they're non -evangelistic. Oh yes, of course.
01:56:31: Those would be the hyper - But even the hyper -Calvinists would be evangelical. They would die rather than deny the essentials of the gospel.
01:56:40: In that sense, they are definitely our brethren in Christ. Same thing with evangelical Arminians.
01:56:45: Can you briefly distinguish between Sassanian Arminianism and evangelical
01:56:52: Arminianism? Well, Sassanianism would teach, first, subordinationism, that Christ is subordinate in his nature, and then that leads to denying his deity.
01:57:04: Subordination to the Father. Yes, the Sassanians did not believe in the full deity of Christ, but some of the early
01:57:11: Arminians at the Senate of Dort were very friendly with the Sassanians and considered them, well, these are our brothers in Christ.
01:57:19: That was the kind of Arminianism that John Owen and the Senate of Dort opposed.
01:57:24: They said, no, no, no, we do not have anything to do with Sassanianism. Sassanianism was simply liberalism.
01:57:32: Huh. Let's see here. Do we have time for one more question? Okay. Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, wants to know, how do you recommend we heal some of the hostility between Pado and Crado Baptists?
01:57:53: Well, it should not be hostile. Some of my closest friends are Pado Baptists. Yes, I agree. Joe Beake has preached in my church a number of times.
01:58:01: Some of my favorite theologians are Pado Baptists. Jonathan Edwards, the Puritans, ones like that.
01:58:07: I'm a Reformed Baptist, and I think that many of them realize the same thing in reverse, that they greatly respect
01:58:14: Spurgeon, for example. And I think that we can foster this unity in Christ by getting to know each other better, and we can agree to disagree without drowning each other in the waters of baptism.
01:58:32: Well, I want to thank you so much, Dr. Daniel. If you could remain on the line so I could schedule our next interview off the air,
01:58:38: I want to remind our listeners that the website for Faith Bible Church in Springfield, Illinois is faithbibleonline .net
01:58:49: faithbibleonline .net And don't forget the website for Evangelical Press, where you can find out more about this book and other titles that they offer.
01:59:00: That website is epbooks .org E -P standing for Evangelical Press epbooks .org
01:59:06: And don't forget you can purchase all of E -V -P E -V books E -P books titles from cvbbs .com,
01:59:15: our sponsor. Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater