July 30, 2009 Show: James White Reviews His Debate with Harold Camping

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Proverbs 27, 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry says that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Listener Calls on the Camping Debate

Good afternoon, Long Island, New York, Connecticut, and those listening internationally over the internet. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, and this is day number one of listener phone calls regarding the two days previous when we had Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries debating Harold Camping of Family Radio on this broadcast.

We were not taking phone calls during that two-day debate for a very good reason. We did not want to take time away from the two debaters, but today and tomorrow is your opportunity to call in with your own questions.

Today, you'll be calling in with questions for Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who opposes Harold Camping's thesis that the church age has ended, and tomorrow, you'll be able to call in with questions for Harold Camping, who obviously defends the position that the church no longer exists.

Today and tomorrow, we are gonna be using a different number than we usually do. This is a toll-free number, 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341. We welcome your phone calls, whether you agree with Mr. Camping or disagree, but I can assure you, your questions must be brief, and we want you to listen to your answer over the internet or over the radio.

We will not give this as an opportunity for either side to have a platform to preach or to give a lecture. We want questions, and we want brief questions, and the number is 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

We'll be right back after these messages with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries to take your questions on the two-day debate with Harold Camping on the theme, Has the Church Age Ended?

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James White on the Debate with Harold Camping

Welcome back, this is Chris Orensen. If you've just tuned into Iron, Sharp, and Zion, this is day number one of our listener phone calls. Today we are taking phone calls for Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who just participated in a two-day debate on Iron, Sharp, and Zion with Harold Camping, founder and president of Family Radio.

Harold Camping believes that the church age has ended, among many other novel things, and the last two days we had both of these gentlemen participate in a live radio debate, and for the next two days we are gonna take live calls from our listeners.

Today we are going to be taking them for Dr. James R. White only, and tomorrow we will be taking them for Harold Camping only. And the number to do that is 877 -753 -3341. It's toll-free, 877 -753 -3341.

Dr. James R. White, in addition to being the founder and the director of Alpha Omega Ministries, is also the author of Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted, and Christ Church Defended, and it's my honor and privilege to have you back on Iron, Sharp, and Zion, James White.

Good to be with you, Chris. I'll tell you what, seems like we've been doing this a lot lately.

Yeah. Well, I'd like you to give our listeners your assessment of these last two days of debate with Harold Camping.

Well, the first day was the only debate part because during the first day when we had the, actually about 65 minutes, it ended up, because the problems we had as far as technical stuff went, that was the only time there was actual debate where Mr. Camping actually attempted to respond to anything I said very clearly to everyone in the audience.

On the second day, he just decided to give his presentation about May 21st, 2011, which, for he and his followers, has become the gospel. I mean, that's what they think spreading the gospel is, is spreading that date, this prophecy, and that he had no interest whatsoever in interacting with anything I was saying.

So there wasn't really a debate at that point. I just simply had equal time to point out many errors on his part, and he just simply let those go by. I'm really hoping that he will follow through, though I'm somewhat skeptical it'll happen, in posting the debate at Family Radio and letting people listen.

Given that, in that second portion, I was able to demonstrate a number of errors on his part, specific errors regarding, for example, his misuse of the preposition ice at Revelation 2010, and things like that.

I just don't know that he's gonna allow that to go out without some editing or something like that. I just don't think that would happen. But, obviously, from my perspective, I was frustrated that Mr. Camping will not interact with criticisms of his position.

He simply goes back to repeating the same thing over and over again. But everyone that I have talked to who has met with Mr. Camping personally has said that's exactly what he's been like for many, many years, and that he has his system, and he just keeps going back to his system, and he cannot hear any criticism of his system.

In fact, that's why I mentioned that caller to Open Forum on Monday or Tuesday's program, the lady asked him, what if May 21st, 2011, passes and nothing happens? And Mr. Camping's reply was, we don't ask that question.

That would be like asking, what if the Bible is wrong? In Mr. Camping's perspective, his unique, never-before-seen, nobody-else-could-possibly-do-this-interpretation is the Bible, and that is what's so very, very dangerous about, well, any of these call groups, because this is, I was honored to have an opportunity to do something here that very few people in the past have been able to do, and that is, I remember E .B. Howe, who wrote the first book against Mormonism in 1834 while Joseph Smith was still alive.

Very few people bothered to invest time in giving a response during the lifetime of Joseph Smith. We had that opportunity. This is how cult leaders operate. They brook no opposition. They claim to have their own interpretation that comes from God.

It cannot be questioned. When anybody calls in and offers some other way of looking at things, they're just dismissed. This is the common, standard way in which these groups begin, and that's how Charles Hayes Russell and Mary Baker Eddy and Ellen G. White and all these groups got started, is this claim of special insight that no one else has ever had, and so we actually had an opportunity.

In our day and age, it's a little bit different given the internet and broadcast and things like that, to actually oppose someone in that very same position, so I was honored to have the opportunity of doing that, and I certainly hope that people heard that this position that is being presented is just simply indefensible outside of, you're assuming that Harold Camping has some kind of inspired insight in the scriptures that no one else has.

We've already been getting emails from people. We have two folks for phone calls. We'll get to them in just a moment, but we've already been getting emails from folks that say, well, you can't disprove what he was saying.

You can't disprove what he was saying, and I think the rational person recognizes that the argument that was presented yesterday by Mr. Camping is completely dependent upon Mr. Camping's authority. In other words, he gets to pick what's significant.

He gets to identify what numbers are significant, what verses are significant. He gets to make the spiritual applications to that, and no one else can insert anything in there, because if you change just one number, the whole thing collapses like the house of cards that it is, and so how can you disprove an irrational argument?

The only way you can disprove an argument is to prove it's what? Irrational, but if it, at its basis, is already a subjective thing that is fundamentally based upon an authority claim by Mr. Camping to have this spiritual insight that no one else has ever had, there is no way to disprove it, because it's not actually an argument.

It's already irrational, so proving that it's irrational isn't gonna accomplish anything, so that's the nature of this kind of teaching. It is not what the Bible is teaching. It is an abuse of the Bible, and I think a lot of people have certainly seen why careful rules of exegesis are absolutely necessary for us to handle the word of God and to show respect to God.

When you do not use meaningful rules of exegesis, you are forcing your words into God's mouth, and that's what Harold Camping does.

I'm sorry, Dr. Wright, your time is up. Oh, wait a minute, that was yesterday. I want to remind you of the number 877 -753 -3341. Please give your first name and the city and state where you're calling from so we can get an idea of where our callers are listening all over the United States and perhaps other parts of the world, but who's our first caller?

Chris, we've got Jeff in North Carolina calling.

Jeff, welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Thank you, thank you. It's good to be here. How are you guys today?

Doing good.

About maybe 50 or something teaches about how God uses numbers and teaches...

Okay, can you listen to...

Well, Jeff, let me ask you a question. How can we put trust in a person who uses numerology, who doesn't even understand the most basic revelations of Scripture regarding the nature of God, for example?

But Jeff, wait a minute, you've made the claim that you followed these things out. How can anyone objectively verify that 23 is the number of destruction or 17 is the number of this or five is the number of that?

There are all sorts of exceptions to any type of rule that you would apply in regards to numbers. Do you really think that, do you believe that any of the original authors intended, anyone to understand the use of these numbers when they wrote them?

Well, I think Bible teaches that...

Well, you believe in some degree where they were...

Well, God...

That's very interesting, but the problem is, Harold says that no one has ever understood these things until now because a book was sealed and this is the Bible and he can't defend that that was the Bible.

I mean, there's no exegetical basis for saying that Daniel 12 is talking about the Bible, but why did it take till now?

Jeff, don't interrupt.

Jeff, I want some interaction. Why did it take till now? Why is it that all these martyrs and these men who have known the Trinity and they've actually known the biblical languages and they've actually done the requisite, they didn't see any of these things.

Now, Mr. Camping says it's because he is the recipient of this sort of latter day revelation type stuff. You know, God's opened up the understanding. Do you believe that God's opened up the understanding?

And why give us the word, but then all these preceding generations of Christians, it wasn't worth it for the spirit of God to reveal these things to them. They didn't need to know anything. He didn't say because it was so long, Jeff.

You're putting that in there. No, he didn't say anything. He said to the apostles who represent all believers, it is not for you to know the times and the seasons. That's all he said. He didn't say because you've got so much work to do or because it's been so long.

He said, it's not for you to know. Right, and I believe that's true.

It wasn't for them to know.

And it wasn't for them to know. So why would anyone think, given that the command is that all of us are to be ready for the coming of Christ at any time, why has that now changed? Well, it's certainly not the Bible and it's certainly not Revelation chapter five because those seals are open and each one of the seals is revealed in Revelation chapter five.

So it's not the Bible and it's not anything in the book of Revelation. So to try to take something like that, that no New Testament writer ever picks up on and amplifies on and says, this is what it is, and say, oh, this means some new revelation is taking place.

Again, Joseph Smith, Jehovah's Witnesses, that's everybody's shtick, is to say, well, you know, these preceding generations, they didn't need to know these things, but we need to know them now. And that's why somehow we get to apply these verses and these numbers, but not these over here, because whenever anyone calls up with other numbers for Mr. Campion, he shoots them down.

Why? Upon what basis? What is the standard that we can appeal to? See, when I teach men in seminary and I teach them Greek or Greek Acts of Jesus, they can go out from there and they can find other men who will teach them the same things.

And they can go to the same texts in the Bible, generation after generation, and find the same truths. Harold can't do that.

What's your take on Revelation 3?

You're talking about the, remember then what you received and heard it, keep it and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

Right.

Well, now, what do you think he means?

Well, he's writing to the church at Sardis and Sardis has problems. It says you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.

So the church at Sardis had a reputation of being alive, but it was an outward reputation. And the Lord Jesus is telling them that remember then what you received and heard, in other words, go back to what had been originally preached to them, keep it and repent.

If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. So they cannot just assume that they are going to continue receiving the blessings of Christ upon their fellowship because he can come and take away their candlesticks.

So in context, in the historical context, there was a church at Sardis, these were their issues, and the Lord Jesus through John wrote to them. And this isn't talking about the end of the world. At what hour I will come against you, the church, when that particular individual church, Sardis does not exist as a Christian church any longer.

So that individual fellowship ceased to exist, just like the Church of Jerusalem ceased to exist during the days of the Muslims. There are Christian churches there now, and there probably are Christian churches in Sardis now, but that particular group and the pastor of that group to whom these things were addressed, that particular group could disappear from the face of the earth.

God can do that with an individual local fellowship.

And that's what it's all about. It is not to look deeper into Scripture to ignore exegesis.

When you were looking at Revelation 3 .3, and to transfer that out of the original context and make this something about the coming of Christ now is not going deeper, that's going shallower. That's going away, that's easy to do.

That's what the cults and isms have done for a long time. That's not going deep. That's not allowing the Scripture to speak in its original context and its original language. That's not going deep, Jeff.

I think that's a very important point.

Thanks a lot for your call, Jeff. Our number is 877 -753 -3341. This is a different number that we're using for call-ins for the next two days, a toll-free number, also enabling more of you to call in, 877 -753 -3341.

Dr. White, I think we extended an extra measure of grace and mercy to Jeff. I don't think that we should allow our callers to stay on that long, otherwise we'll have two or three callers at most.

Okay, I understand.

But I think we have another caller online, don't we?

Yes, we do, yes, we do. And Chris, we've got Jim in Staten Island on the line.

Jim, welcome to Interp and Zarn.

Oh, thank you. Hello, Jim.

Ah, yes, indeed, uh-huh. Right, well, real quickly, Jim, my question for you, though, would be 2006, 2007. This was long after he started teaching that the church age had ended and stuff like that.

Oh, yeah, no, but the point I'm trying to make is I stayed teaching that and he's eventually

Oh, yeah, and now he has.

Called on the 22nd saying, no, no, no, no, no.

I heard the call, Jim. I heard the statement you were making. My concern, and I agree with you, obviously, you are correct, he cannot handle text like that because he has really abandoned a historical Christian view of the doctrine of the atonement with his two deaths of Jesus thing.

But my concern, Jim, real quickly would be when you say you were with him until that time, what about the church? Do you think that he's right about the church age having ended?

Well, now, I'm reevaluating everything from 1994, say

My encouragement to you is to recognize that if you've had problems with a local assembly, that's not the same thing as accepting the idea that the entire church has been destroyed by Christ.

I'm reevaluating that.

Yeah, that's a good thing. I think we're probably coming up on a break here right now, but thank you for your time.

Can I say one more thing?

Really, very, very, very quickly, please.

Awesome, and he said, well, if I have a right back, it's on my neck. So now people are gonna start looking at their loved ones.

Yeah, yeah, that is a very scary application, so.

Thanks a lot for calling, Jim, and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron. And we have to go to a break right now, and once again, our number is 877 -753 -3341. That's toll-free, 877 -753 -3341. Please give your name, city, and state when you call.

We invite calls from both of those who wholeheartedly defend Mr. Camping and those who oppose him, and those who are just not certain. You might not even be a Christian. You might be a Muslim. We do have Muslim listeners now.

You might be Jewish. You might be an atheist or agnostic. You might be evangelical or Roman Catholic. Well, we'd love to hear from you at 877 -753 -3341. This is day number one of our two days of calls from listeners.

Responding to the recent debate between Dr. James R. White and Harold Camping of Family Radio on the theme, Has the Church Age Ended?, and we'll be right back.

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More Calls on Camping, Revelation, and Private Interpretation

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you've just tuned us in, today is day number one of our listener phone calls regarding the recent two-day debate between Harold Camping, founder and president of Family Radio, and Dr. James R. White, the co-founder and director of Alpha Omega Ministries, who also wrote the book, Dangerous Airwaves.

Harold Camping refuted and Christ Church defended. Our toll-free number, if you have a question regarding this two-day debate, our number is 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341. And before we go to any callers, I would like to extend my deepest gratitude to BatteryDepot .com.

In fact, I know that Dr. James R. White uses BatteryDepot .com.

I most certainly do.

Yes, and I'm sure you're pleased with that.

Oh, yes, very much so. We were mentioning in channel a couple days ago when the spot was on, I said, hey, those guys help us out here at the ministry. So everybody said, well, we'll have to get our batteries from them.

Excellent. We appreciate that.

Yeah, I hope everybody listening starts using BatteryDepot .com for all of your battery needs because of the fact that they make events like this two-day debate between Harold Camping and James White possible and the Daily Iron, Sharpen's Iron program in general.

Also, we want to thank the law firm of Buttafuoco Associates and Dan Buttafuoco is also the founder and president of the Historical Bible Society. And I know that, Dr. White, you've been dazzled by his collection.

Oh, yes, I've told him many times that if he doesn't put me in his will to get that Stephanos text, I'm going to haunt him.

And also we have, of course, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible. We want to thank them also for helping to make this broadcast possible. And I also know that happens to be your favorite translation, the update version.

Oh, well, and obviously work for them for quite some time.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's right. 877 -753 -3341 is our number. And by the way, I'm sure you agree with me, Dr. White, that many individuals who are now troubled by what Mr. Camping is teaching now, one of the reasons they're so saddened is that they at one time treasured Family Radio, not only for the music that they found beautiful, but so many of the solid teachers that were once regularly aired on that program who can no longer be a part because they're pastors of churches, many of them.

Oh, yeah.

And you yourself have been on there at least on a handful of occasions. I personally mailed your tapes into the Conference Echoes and they aired every one that I sent in.

Yeah, well, but once he started the teaching against the church, that was the end of that. The false teaching has consequences, and especially the stuff he's teaching now. We haven't had time to develop it and we need to get back to our collars, but his teaching, The Crisis Died Twice, is just, it makes the term heresy far too light when you really think about what the result of that is, the fact that it has impact upon the Incarnation and the meaning of the Atonement, everything.

Extremely important stuff, and yet no one's ever come up with anything like that before. There's no reason to believe that. There's so much clear biblical evidence against such a belief, but again, this is what makes his system what it is, is he's its final authority.

He gets to pick and choose what verses mean and what verses had meaning only back then and what verses only have meaning now, et cetera, et cetera. It's a very irrational approach, to be sure.

Well, let's get to our next phone call, Rich.

Chris, we've got Mark in San Antonio, Texas.

Mark, welcome to Iron Sherpa's Iron.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Chris, I just wanted to tell you that you have fans here in San Antonio, so.

What did you say? I didn't hear that.

Yes, you said you have fans in San Antonio.

Oh, great, thanks.

Good to hear that.

Okay, well, like the previous caller, I too was, and I like to emphasize, that the end was coming in 1994. I feel that in all likelihood, 1994, that 1994 came in the Bible, 1994 Bible, because I clearly see it.

And even after 1994, I

That is one of my biggest concerns, Mark, it really is that so many people, I do believe, will connect the trustworthiness of the Bible, its authority, its message, with this one particular teaching that does not take into consideration the methodology that one must use to allow the Bible to speak for itself.

And that's been one of my constant themes from the very first of the program on Tuesday, is that I know that that's one of the greatest dangers.

Bringing me, and so on and so forth, that's for you, Dr. White. You know, do you think that camping may be onto something here?

Well, there's no question that there are certain dates in history that are absolutely firm. The five, it's actually 586 slash 587, because the ancients counted years differently than we do as far as when they began.

So, but you see, the date of the fall of Jerusalem is based upon cuneiform tablets, thousands of them over hundreds of years. And so we have historical evidence of those things. Trying to identify the exact date of the flood is a completely different issue that requires a large number of assumptions built upon further assumptions built upon further assumptions.

Now, even if someone were right about that, it is still the methodology of taking the text apart and connecting things together that the original authors never saw, nobody else has ever seen since then.

And there is nothing other than, well, I see this connection. Well, why don't you see this one over here that William Miller saw? Why don't you see this one over here that this person saw? It is completely subjective as to which ones you place weight upon and which ones you do not.

So certainly the Bible is filled with history and verifiable history as to the fall of Jerusalem and things like that. When we get into a period of time where we have the historical documents to demonstrate, there's no question about that.

There are, yes.

1894.

Well, let me just, I'll fast forward it here a little bit so you can hear it. Let me just play for you. This was from just a, I believe this was Monday or possibly Tuesday on the open forum. You got it piled up there, Rich?

But nevertheless, he said, I've been for a long time with you and ye hath not known me, Philip, he that hath seen me, as I do right there, I am the father. When you look at me, you're looking at the father.

In plain language, they're way beyond our under here for God.

He actually just before that, and I tried to fast forward it real quickly so we get to our other callers, but he said, Jesus is the father. Jesus is the spirit. I think the problem with the sonship issue has come up because he's developed this.

Jesus became the Christ, the resurrection, and he died twice. He died in eternity. Then he demonstrated death, et cetera, et cetera. I think it's just, it's sort of the snowball effect over time is what's going on here.

And as I've likened it on my blog, the elastic has snapped and he is moving farther and farther away from orthodoxy at that point.

Hey, Mark, Mark, thanks for calling. And next time you're near Max Lucado's congregation, tell him to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron. He's an old friend of mine and I would rejoice to hear him embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace.

All right. All right, we got more callers here.

Scripture, Revelation, and Camping’s Interpretive Method

Yes, who's the next caller?

We've got Brad in San Jose, California.

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time. You made two points I'd like to pick up. Jim, you had said that you had asked him a question initially, a new or different interpretation that other people had not.

And I would respond. What about the

Very simple. This does require, and Mr. Camping's system does require, that in essence, we have a new testament. That the new testament has now become the middle testament and the old testament, the old testament.

And now there needs to be a new revelation because he's claiming, in essence, to have the same rights that the apostles had in seeing the fulfillment of Jesus Christ in the old testament scriptures. The problem is, the new testament teaches that the old testament scriptures were a type, a shadow, that's the Hebrew language, of what has been fulfilled in Christ.

In these last days, he's spoken unto us by his son. But now we have to come up with the idea that, well, but that's not enough because now there's something beyond that. We'd have to have more scripture to be able to even begin to go there.