July 30, 2009 Show: James White Reviews His Debate with Harold Camping

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Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron, the only daily live broadcast in the New York metropolitan and greater

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Long Island area, on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians have a platform to address the burning issues faith in.

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2717 tells us, Iron Sharpens Iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view, in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Mark, Connecticut, and those listening internationally over the Internet, this is

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Chris Orinson, your host of all. This is day number one of listener phone calls regarding the two days previous, not taking phone calls during that two -day debate, for a very good reason.

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We did not want to take time away from the two debaters. But today and tomorrow, 753 -3341, we welcome your phone calls, whether you agree with Mr.

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Camping or disagree. But I can assure you, your questions must be brief, and we want you to listen to your answer over the

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Internet or over the radio. We will not give this as an opportunity for either side to have a platform to preach or to give a lecture.

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We want questions, and we want brief questions, and the number is 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.

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We'll be right back after these messages with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries to take your questions on the two -day debate with Harold Camping on the theme,

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The Spirit of New York, WNYG. Welcome back. This is Chris Lorenzen, if you've just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is day number one of our listener phone calls. Today we are taking phone calls for Dr.

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James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who just participated in a two -day debate on Iron Sharpens Iron with Harold Camping, founder and president of Family Radio.

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Harold Camping believes that the church age has ended, among many other novel things, and the last two days we had both of these gentlemen participate in a live radio debate, and for the next two days we are going to take live calls from our listeners.

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Today we are going to be taking them for Dr. James R. White only, and tomorrow we will be taking them for Harold Camping only.

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And the number to do that is 877 -753 -3341. It's toll -free.

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877 -753 -3341. Dr. James R. White, in addition to being the founder and the director of Alpha Omega Ministries, is also the author of Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted, and Christ Church Defended, and it's my honor and privilege to have you back on Iron Sharpens Iron, James White.

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Good to be with you, Chris. I'll tell you what, it seems like we've been doing this a lot lately. Yeah. Well, I'd like you to give our listeners your assessment of these last two days of debate with Harold Camping.

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Well, the first day was the only debate part, because during the first day when we had the actually about 65 minutes it ended up, because of the problems we had as far as technical stuff went.

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That was the only time there was actual debate, where Mr. Camping actually attempted to respond to everything I said very clearly to everyone in the audience.

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On the second day, he just decided to give his presentation about May 21st, 2011, which for he and his followers has become the gospel.

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I mean, that's what they think spreading the gospel is, is spreading that date, this prophecy. And that he had no interest whatsoever in interacting with anything

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I was saying. So there wasn't really a debate at that point. I just simply had equal time to point out many errors on his part, and he just simply let those go by.

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I'm really hoping that he will follow through, though I'm somewhat skeptical it will happen, in posting the debate at Family Radio and letting people listen.

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Given that in that second portion, I was able to demonstrate a number of errors on his part.

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Specific errors regarding, for example, his misuse of the preposition ice at Revelation 2010, and things like that.

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I just don't know that he's going to allow that to go out without some editing or something like that.

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I just don't think that will happen. But obviously, from my perspective, I was frustrated that Mr.

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Camping will not interact with criticisms of his position. It simply goes back to repeating the same thing over and over again.

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But everyone that I have talked to who has met with Mr. Camping personally has said that's exactly what he's been like for many, many years.

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And that he has his system, and he just keeps going back to his system, and he cannot hear any criticism of his system.

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In fact, that's why I mentioned that caller to Open Forum on Monday or Tuesday's program, where the lady asked him, what if May 21, 2011 passes and nothing happens?

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And Mr. Camping's reply was, we don't ask that question. That would be like asking, what if the Bible is wrong?

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In Mr. Camping's perspective, his unique, never -before -seen, nobody else could possibly do this interpretation is the

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Bible. And that is what's so very, very dangerous about any of these call groups.

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I was honored to have an opportunity to do something here that very few people in the past have been able to do.

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I remember E. B. Howe, who wrote the first book against Mormonism in 1834 while Joseph Smith was still alive.

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Very few people bothered to invest time in giving a response during the lifetime of Joseph Smith.

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We had that opportunity. This is how cult leaders operate.

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They brook no opposition. They claim to have their own interpretation that comes from God.

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It cannot be questioned. When anybody calls in and offers some other way of looking at things, they're just dismissed.

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This is the only common, standard way in which these groups begin. And that's how Charles Taze Russell and Mary Baker Eddy and Ellen G.

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White and all these groups got started, is this claim of special insight that no one else has ever had.

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And so we actually had an opportunity in our day and age, it's a little bit different given the internet and broadcast and things like that, to actually oppose someone in that very same position.

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So I was honored to have the opportunity of doing that. And I certainly hope that people heard that this position that is being presented is just simply indefensible outside of your assuming that Harold Camping has some kind of inspired insight into the scriptures that no one else has.

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We've already been getting emails from people. We have two folks online already for phone calls.

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We'll get to them in just a moment. But we've already been getting emails from folks that say, well, you can't disprove what he was saying.

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You can't disprove what he was saying. And I think the rational person recognizes that the argument that was presented yesterday by Mr.

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Camping is completely dependent upon Mr. Camping's authority. In other words, he gets to pick what's significant.

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He gets to identify what numbers are significant, what verses are significant. He gets to make the spiritual applications to that.

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And no one else can insert anything in there, because if you change just one number, the whole thing collapses like the house of cards that it is.

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And so how can you disprove an irrational argument? The only way you can disprove an argument is to prove it's what?

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Irrational. But if it at its basis is already a subjective thing that is fundamentally based upon an authority claim by Mr.

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Camping to have this spiritual insight that no one else has ever had, there is no way to disprove it, because it's not actually an argument.

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It's already irrational, so proving that it's irrational isn't going to accomplish anything.

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So that's the nature of this kind of teaching. It is not what the

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Bible is teaching. It is an abuse of the Bible. And I think a lot of people have certainly seen why careful rules of exegesis are absolutely necessary for us to handle the

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Word of God and to show respect to God. When you do not use meaningful rules of exegesis, you are forcing your words into God's mouth.

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And that's what Harold Camping does. I'm sorry, Dr. Wright, your time is up. Oh, wait a minute, that was yesterday. I want to remind you of the number, 877 -753 -3341.

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Please give your first name and last name and the city and state where you're calling from, so we can get an idea of where our callers are listing all over the

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United States and perhaps other parts of the world. But who's our first caller? Chris, we've got

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Jeff in North Carolina calling. Jeff, welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron. Thank you, thank you.

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It's good to be here. How are you guys today? Doing good. Good. I enjoyed the show yesterday and the day before.

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It was very interesting. When I was 21, Christ came into my life.

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I wasn't part of any church. I hadn't heard of Harold Camping or this or that. I was brought up Roman Catholic, but I never had a personal relationship with God.

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And when I was 21, God led me into His Word, and that was about maybe 15 years ago, 14 years ago.

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I've been blessed by God's mercy to have been led into the Bible and to have been transformed and made a new creature in Christ.

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When I came to the Lord, I was introduced to Charles Stanley and J.

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Vernon McGee and a lot of the classic radio ministers. That was really great.

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More to the point, after hearing about Harold Camping a few years back, a friend of mine and myself set out to really pick apart and disprove a lot of the things he was saying.

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I can remember one night we spent six hours going through all of the genealogies and the time information from Genesis right on through.

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To our amazement, we came up with the same timeline that Harold Camping talks about.

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Also, we did a study on what Harold Camping teaches about how

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God uses numbers in the Bible and they're relevant, how he'll use the same numbers over and over with a few exceptions.

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Each time, a specific number will be referring to a specific point or a specific topic.

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So I think that a lot of what

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Harold Camping teaches seems so over the top, but I think that very few people are actually willing to really put the time in studying the

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Bible to see if there's any validity before they judge it, criticize it, or condemn it.

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Okay, can you listen to... Jeff, let me ask you a question. How can we put trust in a person who uses numerology who doesn't even understand the most basic revelations of the

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Scripture regarding the nature of God, for example? Yeah, I don't think we are to trust

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Harold Camping. I've heard Harold Camping say, the times

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I've listened to him, that he doesn't want people to trust him, but just to trust the Bible.

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And numerology, I think it's actually doing a disservice to say that Harold Camping uses numerology as we know what is commonly believed as numerology in the occult world.

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I believe there are two different things. What you're calling numerology is not the same as looking at where God puts numbers in the

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Bible as Word, and then often, many times, around a specific topic.

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So I think it's doing a... Well, Jeff, but Jeff, wait a minute. You've made the claim that you've followed these things out.

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How can anyone objectively verify that 23 is the number of destruction, or 17 is the number of this, or 5 is the number of that?

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There are all sorts of exceptions to any type of rule that you would apply in regards to numbers.

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Do you really think that... Do you believe that any of the original authors intended anyone to understand the use of these numbers when they wrote them?

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Well, I think, personally, because I believe what the Bible teaches, that God is the author of the

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Bible, not Paul or John. I do believe the Bible clearly teaches that God authored the

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Bible completely. So, you know, we're just mere men, and I think that a lot of even what the original penmen of the

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Bible, the those who God used to write the Bible, they most likely did not understand a lot of what they were writing.

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I honestly believe that. I mean, John... So you believe in some type of dictation theory? Excuse me?

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Do you believe in some type of dictation theory, where they were sort of taken over? Well, no, no.

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I mean, God... It's not what I think. The Bible does teach that holy men of old wrote as God the

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Holy Spirit moved them. They were moved by God directly to write the

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Bible. See, that's the amazing thing about the Bible. Here I am just sitting here, and every time

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I think about the Bible or I read the Bible and believe what it says, that it is a book written by God for humans for the duration of humanity from...

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But Jeff, that's very interesting, but the problem is, Harold says that no one has ever understood these things until now, because a book was sealed, and this is the

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Bible, and he can't defend that that was the Bible. I mean, there's no exegetical basis for saying that Daniel 12 is talking about the

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Bible, but why did it take until now? Jeff, don't interrupt.

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Jeff, I want some interaction. Why did it take until now? Why is it that all these martyrs and these men who have known the

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Trinity and they've actually known the biblical languages and they've actually done the requisite...

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They didn't see any of these things. Now, Mr. Camping says it's because he is the recipient of this sort of latter -day revelation type stuff.

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You know, God's opened up the understanding. Do you believe that God's opened up the understanding? And why give us the word, but then all these preceding generations of Christians, it wasn't worth it for the

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Spirit of God to reveal these things to them. They didn't need to know anything. Well, that's a good question, and I think an answer to part of it is where, you know, when the apostles asked

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Jesus about the time of the end, and he said that it wasn't for them to know the details of that, because there was so long.

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I think that there are certain aspects of the Bible... He didn't say because it was so long, Jeff. You're putting that in there. Oh, well,

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I... Right. He said because, you know, you've got work to do... No, he didn't say anything. He said to the apostles who represent all believers, it is not for you to know the times and the seasons.

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That's all he said. He didn't say because you've got so much work to do, or because it's been so long. He said, it's not for you to know.

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Right, and I believe that's true. It wasn't for them to know. And it's not... It wasn't for them to know. So why would anyone think, given that the command is that all of us are to be ready for the coming of Christ at any time, why has that now changed?

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Well, if indeed what is talked about in Daniel is the book that God, you know,

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God said, put a seal, go thy way, Daniel, and put a seal upon this book, and it will be at the time of the end.

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Now, what book do you think that is? Well, it's certainly not the Bible, and it's certainly not Revelation chapter 5, because those seals are open, and each one of the seals is revealed in Revelation chapter 5.

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So it's not the Bible, and it's not anything in the book of Revelation. So to try to take something like that, that no

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New Testament writer ever picks up on and amplifies on and says, this is what it is, and say, oh, this means some new revelation is taking place.

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Again, Joseph Smith, Jehovah's Witnesses, that's everybody's shtick, is to say, well, you know, these preceding generations, they didn't need to know these things, but we need to know them now, and that's why somehow we get to apply these verses and these numbers, but not these over here, because when everyone calls up with other numbers for Mr.

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Campion, he shoots them down. Why? Upon what basis? What is the standard that we can appeal to?

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See, when I teach men in seminary, and I teach them Greek or Greek act of Jesus, they can go out from there, and they can find other men who will teach them the same things, and they can go to the same texts in the

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Bible, generation after generation, and find the same truths. Harold, can't you do that?

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Can you give me what your take on Revelation 3 .3 is real quick? Well, are you talking about the letters to the churches?

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Yeah, Revelation 3 .3. Remember then what you received, and heard it, keep it, and repent.

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If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Right. What do you think he means when he says, if you do not watch, you will not know what hour

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I will come? Well, he's writing to the church at Sardis, and Sardis has problems. It says, you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

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Wake up and strengthen what remains, and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my

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God. So the church at Sardis had a reputation of being alive, but it was an outward reputation, and the

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Lord Jesus is telling them that, remember then what you received and heard, in other words, go back to what had been originally preached to them, keep it, repent.

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If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. So, they cannot just assume that they are going to continue receiving the blessings of Christ upon their fellowship, because he can come and take away their candlesticks.

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So, in context, in the historical context, there was a church at Sardis, these were their issues, and the

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Lord Jesus, through John, wrote to them. So, if they had watched, they would know what hour,

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I mean, what does it mean? This isn't talking about the end of the world, at what hour I will come against you, the church, when that particular individual church,

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Sardis does not exist as a Christian church any longer. So that individual fellowship ceased to exist, just like the church at Jerusalem ceased to exist during the days of the

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Muslims. There are Christian churches there now, and there probably are Christian churches in Sardis now, but that particular group, and the pastor of that group to whom these things were addressed, that particular group could disappear from the face of the earth.

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God can do that with an individual local fellowship. I just want to say one last thing, just as a fellow believer in Christ, which

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I would hope with all my heart that you are truly a believer, as that's my hope for everybody, you know,

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I would encourage you to maybe look a little deeper in the

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Scripture at some of the topics that Harold Camping talked about, because I've done it with the intention to disprove it, and have come away with some agreement with things that are not...

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When you were looking at Revelation 3 .3, and to transfer that out of the original context, and make this something about the coming of Christ now, is not going deeper, that's going shallower, that's going away, that's easy to do, that's what the cults and isms have done for a long time, that's not going deep, that's not allowing the

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Scripture to speak in its original context and its original language, that's not going deep, Jeff.

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I think that's very important. Thanks a lot for your call, Jeff. Our number is 877 -753 -3341.

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This is a different number that we're using for call -ins for the next two days, a toll -free number, also enabling more of you to call in, 877 -753 -3341.

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Dr. White, I think we extended an extra measure of grace and mercy to Jeff, I don't think that we should allow our callers to stay on that long, otherwise we'll have two or three callers at most.

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Okay, I understand. But I think we have another caller on the line, don't we? Yes, we do.

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And Chris, we've got Jim in Staten Island on the line. Jim, welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron. Oh, thank you.

27:22

Hello, Jim. Hello. How are you doing? I met you, I wrote back with you to Long Island one time, you preached at a church in Tampa back around the year 2000 or so.

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Ah, yes, indeed. Yeah, but I just want to thank the Lord and you and everybody that orchestrated this interaction.

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I use that term lightly, and I'm hoping that a lot of people that are still stuck following family travel camping, their lives will be opened.

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I was a devout contributor, promoter of family radio.

27:56

I went on seven track trips. I started to become a little disturbed at the end of 2006 into 2007 when he started teaching that unsaved men can begin to do the will of God, St.

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Jonah, chapter 3. I used to be a frequent caller on the open forum until the spring, but now

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I'm getting so discouraged. That's about a year I was calling frequently. But he would cite

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Jonah chapter 3 and Luke 18, the public and the sinner, showing that a man can cry out for mercy.

28:24

Right. Well, real quickly, Jim, though, my question for you, though, would be 2006, 2007. This was long after he started teaching that the church age had ended and stuff like that.

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Oh, yeah, I know. But the point I'm trying to make is I stayed with him up until that point. Then when he started getting to an annihilation that unsaved people will not be resurrected, and I told my friend,

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I said, if he's teaching that, then he's eventually going to have to touch on the atonement, like what actually happened with Christ. Oh, yeah, and now he has.

28:55

But paramount, paramount. I called on the 22nd. I was about the third caller in on the open forum.

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And I called the Thursday prior to that, but he wouldn't let me speak. He kept saying, no, no, no, no, no, and just over -talking me.

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But in 1 Corinthians 15, he stated that the resurrection in verse 4.

29:15

Yeah, I heard the call, Jim. I heard the statement you were making, my concern, and I agree with you, obviously.

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You are correct. He cannot handle text like that because he has really abandoned a historical

29:27

Christian view of the doctrine of the atonement with his two deaths of Jesus thing. But my concern, Jim, real quickly would be when you say you were with him until that time, what about the church?

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Do you think that he's right about the church age having ended? Well, now I'm reevaluating everything he's taught.

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Of course, I listened to him since 1986, I believe, and I went from 1994.

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I saw the trouble with the time passing when, you know, except those days be sure and no flesh will be saved.

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I discontinued going to the church about a week after 9 -11, and there were circumstances that led to that.

30:05

I was kind of disgusted with the place I was attending. Well, Jim, my encouragement to you is to recognize that if you've had problems with a local assembly, that's not the same thing as accepting the idea that the entire church has been destroyed by Christ.

30:19

Well, I'm reevaluating that. Yeah, that's a good thing. I think we're probably coming up on a break here right now.

30:25

But thank you for your call. Really, very, very quickly, please. All right. The big trouble, and you wrote dangerous airwaves, he's a very dangerous man because when we called and asked him, what should

30:35

I do with my two cats on May 20th? Should I euthanize them? And he said, well, if I told you to do that,

30:41

I would have all these animal rights activists on my neck. He said, you're going to have to pray for wisdom, but he more or less endorsed what he was saying.

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So now people are going to start looking at their loved ones and wondering. Yeah, that is a very scary application.

30:56

Thanks a lot for calling, Jim. And keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron. And we have to go to a break right now.

31:04

And once again, our number is 877 -753 -3341. That's toll free.

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877 -753 -3341. Please give your name, city, and state when you call.

31:16

We invite calls from both of those who wholeheartedly defend Mr.

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Camping and those who oppose him, and those who are just not certain. You might not even be a Christian. You might be a

31:26

Muslim. We do have Muslim listeners now. You might be Jewish. You might be an atheist or agnostic.

31:33

You might be evangelical or Roman Catholic. Well, we'd love to hear from you at 877 -753 -3341.

31:39

This is day number one of our two days of calls from listeners. Responding to the recent debate between Dr.

31:46

James R. White and Harold Camping of Family Radio on the theme, Has the Church Age Ended?

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35:21

Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen. If you've just tuned us in, today is day number one of our listener phone calls regarding the recent two -day debate between Harold Camping, founder and president of Family Radio, and Dr.

35:34

James R. White, the co -founder and director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, who also wrote the book

35:39

Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended.

35:45

Our toll -free number, if you have a question regarding this two -day debate, our number is 877 -753 -3341.

35:53

877 -753 -3341. Before we go to any callers, I would like to extend my deepest gratitude to BatteryDepot .com.

36:03

In fact, I know that Dr. James R. White uses BatteryDepot .com. I most certainly do. Yes, and I'm sure you're pleased with them, too.

36:11

Oh, yes, very much so. We were mentioning in Channel a couple days ago when the spot was on, and I said, hey, those guys help us out here at the ministry.

36:19

So everybody said, well, we'll have to get our batteries from them. Excellent. We appreciate that. I hope everybody listening starts using

36:26

BatteryDepot .com for all of your battery needs because of the fact that they make events like this two -day debate between Harold Camping and James White possible, and the

36:34

Daily Iron Sharpens Iron program in general. Also, we want to thank the law firm of Buttafuoco & Associates, and Dan Buttafuoco is also the founder and president of the

36:42

Historical Bible Society, and I know, Dr. White, you've been dazzled by his collection. Oh, yes,

36:48

I've told him many times that if he doesn't put me at his will to get that Stephanos text,

36:54

I'm going to haunt him someday. And also we have, of course, the publishers of the

37:00

New American Standard Bible. We want to thank them also for helping to make this broadcast possible, and I also know that happens to be your favorite translation, the update version.

37:10

Oh, well, and obviously worked for them for quite some time. That's right. That's right. 877 -753 -3341 is our number.

37:19

And by the way, I'm sure you agree with me, Dr. White, that many individuals who are now troubled by what

37:27

Mr. Camping is teaching now, one of the reasons they're so saddened is that they at one time treasured family radio, not only for the music that they found beautiful, but so many of the solid teachers that were once regularly aired on that program who can no longer be a part because they're pastors of churches, many of them.

37:47

Oh, yeah. And you yourself have been on there at least on a handful of occasions. I personally mailed your tapes into the

37:54

Conference Echoes, and they aired every one that I sent in. Yeah, well, but once he started the teaching against the church, that was the end of that.

38:04

But the false teaching has consequences, and especially the stuff he's teaching now.

38:10

We haven't had time to develop it, and we need to get back to our callers, but his teaching, The Crisis Died Twice, is just, it makes the term heresy far too light.

38:21

When you really think about what the result of that is, the fact that it has impact upon the Incarnation and the meaning of the

38:27

Atonement, everything, extremely important stuff, and yet no one's ever come up with anything like that before.

38:33

There's no reason to believe that. There's so much clear biblical evidence against such a belief. But again, this is what makes his system what it is, is he's its final authority.

38:44

He gets to pick and choose what verses mean and what verses had meaning only back then and what verses only have meaning now, etc.,

38:51

etc. It's a very irrational approach, to be sure. Well, let's get to our next phone call,

38:57

Rich. Chris, we've got Mark in San Antonio, Texas. Mark, welcome to Iron Sherpa's Iron. Good afternoon, gentlemen.

39:04

Chris, I just wanted to tell you that you have fans here in San Antonio. What did you say? I didn't hear that. Yes, you said you have fans in San Antonio.

39:11

Oh, great. Thanks. Good to hear that. Okay. Well, like the previous caller, I too was, and I like to emphasize that word, was an avid student, you know, of the teachings of Harold Camping.

39:26

I was one of the ones who fell for the 1994 date. When I moved to San Antonio from Long Island, you know, back in 1993,

39:37

I felt that the Lord sent me to San Antonio. It wasn't by any accident or anything, and I really thought that the

39:45

Lord wanted me to show the people of San Antonio that the end was coming in 1994. And I was going out because there was no family radio station here, so I figured that I was really the only voice, you know, giving out the truth here.

40:01

And I was out giving out literature and telling people that in all likelihood, even though not 100 % just mimicking

40:07

Camping, that 1994, that it was possible that the end was coming. And finally,

40:14

September of 1994 came and went, and I was, you know, disillusioned because, you know, the way

40:22

Mr. Camping explained it, I was able to see it from the Bible. And I remember, I kept on saying to myself, well, if it doesn't happen in 1994, what am

40:31

I going to do with the Bible? Because I clearly see it. And even after 1994, I still saw that date because the way

40:39

Camping was explaining, you know, explaining it using his methodology and interpreting the

40:44

Bible. That is one of my biggest concerns, Mark. It really is that so many people,

40:50

I do believe, will connect the trustworthiness of the Bible, its authority, its message, with this one particular teaching that does not take into consideration the methodology that one must use to allow the

41:06

Bible to speak for itself. And that's been one of my constant themes from the very first of the program on Tuesday, is that I know that that's one of the greatest dangers.

41:17

Absolutely, you know, and I feel really strange in, you know, calling you today because both of you gentlemen,

41:24

Dr. White and Hal Camping, have both been instrumental in bringing me to the point where I am right now when it comes to the doctrines of grace and so on and so forth.

41:35

Even though, you know, Dr. White is in error when it comes to paedo -baptism.

41:41

But that's another story. Anyway, I'm teasing, guys. But the question that I have for you,

41:49

Dr. White, you know, for example, Pastor Camping, excuse me,

41:56

Brother Camping, he says that the fall of Jerusalem happened in 587, also that the flood happened on a certain date.

42:10

Now, these dates are supported not only by what

42:15

Camping says in Scripture, but, you know, for example, historians do agree that Jerusalem fell to the

42:22

Babylonians in 587. Do you think that Camping may be onto something here? Well, there's no question that there are certain dates in history that are absolutely firm.

42:30

It's actually 586 -587 because the ancients counted years differently than we do as far as when they began.

42:38

But you see, the date of the fall of Jerusalem is based upon cuneiform tablets, thousands of them over hundreds of years.

42:44

And so we have historical evidence of those things. Trying to identify the exact date of the flood is a completely different issue that requires a large number of assumptions built upon further assumptions built upon further assumptions.

43:01

Now, even if someone were right about that, it is still the methodology of taking the text apart and connecting things together that the original authors never saw, nobody else has ever seen since then.

43:15

And there is nothing other than, well, I see this connection. Well, why don't you see this one over here that William Miller saw?

43:22

Why don't you see this one over here that this person saw? It is completely subjective as to which ones you place weight upon and which ones you do not.

43:31

So certainly the Bible is filled with history and verifiable history as to the fall of Jerusalem and things like that.

43:38

When we get into a period of time where we have the historical documents to demonstrate, there is no question about that.

43:44

You bet. And let me just quickly ask this because I know there are probably other callers. Oh, there are, yes. Yeah, if you can just simply get into, because even though back in 1994 we were still holding on to this date, we still held on to the essentials, the

43:58

Trinity, eternal sonship, and so on and so forth, eternal torment, but now he seems to be drifting away from that.

44:05

Now, I'm a really stickler when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity and eternal sonship. How is he denying the

44:10

Trinity and eternal sonship? Well, let me just, I'll fast forward it here a little bit so you can hear it.

44:17

Let me just play for you. This was from just a, I believe this was

44:23

Monday or possibly Tuesday on the open forum.

44:29

You got it piled up there, Rich? But nevertheless, even as he said that in John 14, he said, he is saying, for example, in verse 9,

44:45

Have I been so long time with you? And ye hath not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the

44:53

Father. And how sayest thou then, show us the Father? Christ is emphasizing right there,

45:01

I am the Father. When you look at me, you're looking at the Father. You talk about plain language, there it is.

45:08

But we can't, we just leave it alone. God is one God, and it's way beyond our understanding.

45:17

But thank you for God. He actually, just before that, and I tried to fast forward it real quickly so we get to our other callers, but he said

45:23

Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Spirit. I think the problem with the sonship issue has come up because he's developed this

45:30

Jesus became the Christ, the resurrection, and he died twice, he died in eternity, and then he demonstrated death, etc.,

45:38

etc. I think it's just sort of the snowball effect over time is what's going on here.

45:44

And as I've likened it on my blog, the elastic has snapped, and he is moving farther and farther away from orthodoxy at that point.

45:52

Hey, Mark, thanks for calling. And next time you're near Max Lucado's congregation, tell him to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron.

46:01

He's an old friend of mine, and I would rejoice to hear him embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace. All right, we've got more callers here.

46:09

Yes, who's the next caller? We've got Brad in San Jose, California. Hey, guys, thanks for taking my call.

46:15

I have three points, but I'll try to make them quickly. I really enjoyed all the last callers.

46:21

I have the empathy is mostly with the first caller. He made two points I'd like to pick up on, and I have a third one

46:26

I'd like to make quickly. Jim, you had said that you had asked him a question initially, how are things different today?

46:34

In other words, how are we to be allowing ourselves to see these verses with a new or different interpretation that other people had not.

46:42

And I would respond to that. I would say, well, what about the guys on the road to Emmaus, and what about progressive revelation?

46:51

And I'd just ask you to respond to that. Well, it's very simple. This does require, and Mr. Camping's system does require, that in essence we have a

46:59

New Testament, that the New Testament has now become the Middle Testament, and the Old Testament the

47:04

Old Testament, and now there needs to be a new revelation, because he's claiming, in essence, to have the same rights that the apostles had in seeing the fulfillment of Jesus Christ in the

47:13

Old Testament scriptures. The problem is the New Testament teaches that the Old Testament scriptures were a type, a shadow, that's the

47:19

Hebrew language, of what has been fulfilled in Christ. In these last days, he's spoken unto us by his

47:25

Son, but now we have to come up with the idea that, well, but that's not enough, because now there's something beyond that.

47:31

We'd have to have more scripture to even begin to go there, and we can't go there, because the fulfillment of all these things has been in Jesus Christ, and it is one message.

47:42

His people have had one gospel to spread, and that gospel has never been anything about May 21, 2011.

47:48

So it really does require, even though Mr. Camping keeps saying, well, this is just in the Bible. Well, yeah, like the 365 .242

47:55

is in the Bible or something like that. It's not in the Bible if you cannot identify it as having been the common possession of the people of God as the gospel has gone out into the world.

48:05

That is a fundamental violation of the completedness of God's revelation in Jesus Christ.

48:11

It requires new revelation, and I think that is really what is being claimed. Okay, I think the covenant is completed at the end of time.

48:20

I appreciate your response. I'm not sure I agree with it 100%, but the next point I have to make is he brought up thief and the knight in Revelation.

48:30

The theme is brought up in numerous scriptures, not just the one, and you made a good response,

48:36

I think. It didn't say thief and the knight in Revelation 3 .3. It just simply says like a thief. Yeah, okay.

48:43

So I accept that response, but if you go to look at 1 Thessalonians 5 .2,

48:49

it's clearly talking about the end of days, and so I think that he still has a valid point.

48:56

Maybe he should have brought up a different scripture. How would you respond? What if he had brought up 1

49:01

Thessalonians 5 .2? Well, obviously Christians believe that Christ is going to return, and my eschatology is that he's going to return suddenly, and it's not going to require 7 years before he returns or half a return and then a full return or anything like that.

49:18

He could return tomorrow. That, I think, is the faith of Christians down through the ages, and so that's what the text is talking about there.

49:27

That's not what the text is talking about in Revelation 3 .3 when you look at it in its original context.

49:33

That letter to the church of Thartis had a meaning when it was written, and to pull one section of that out and apply it to something completely different is the mechanism of destroying the message of Scripture.

49:47

We can't do that. 1 Thessalonians is talking about that. There's no question about it, but just because the word thief appears in both, this is one of the primary problems with Harold Camping's exegesis is that, well, as long as a word is the same word, or even notice his use of kefar in the pitch of the ark.

50:05

Well, because the three Hebrew letters are the same, this means it's a picture of the atonement.

50:12

Again, that is just simplistic errors that can be used to prove absolutely anything, and if someone actually wanted to invest the time to sit down with Harold's own writings, they could turn his own writings into a mishmash of silly contradictions by using the same methodology.

50:29

Why does the Bible have to be subjected to that kind of treatment when we would never allow our own writings to be treated in that way?

50:36

Well, because the Bible's written by God. The first caller made that point. I think it's very important. So wait a minute. So we show it less respect.

50:42

No, it's not less respect. Then we just show our own. I'd like to say something. Okay. You show respect when you listen to the text.

50:48

Yes. And I have to say that I don't want to make such a personal comment.

50:55

It's not. But this issue is of great concern to me. It has been for a long time. I read your book,

51:00

Dangerous Airwaves When It First Came Out, hoping to find some sort of answers there.

51:05

There were some, but my criticism I would make both to your book and to during the debate is that it seemed a bit ironic that you were criticizing him for not responding to your points.

51:20

But you really were not spending time to listen to his points and understand why he was responding in the way that he has.

51:28

I have listened to hours and hours of Harold Camping, sir. I listened to at least 12 hours of Harold Camping lecturing on this subject before I did those.

51:39

And I don't have time to do that, by the way, but I did. And I never misrepresented him.

51:44

I have heard, I know what his arguments are, and at their very foundation they involve a method of interpretation that can turn the

51:53

Bible into theological Plato. This is exactly what Joseph Smith did. This is exactly what all these other cult leaders have done.

52:01

It's a false comparison, I think, Jim, but I appreciate it. Upon what basis? Upon what basis is that a false comparison? I would just like to make the constructive criticism that I think you should always respect the many facts.

52:11

No, you just made a statement. Please take the time. How is that a false comparison? Joseph Smith claimed to receive an insight into the scriptures that no one else had ever had.

52:22

That's what Harold Camping is saying. He's saying flee the churches, he's denying central Christian doctrines, and he's saying he has an insight that no one else has.

52:30

How is that not a valid comparison? Hey, Dr. White, I think we have to really end this call and take another one because we're really running out of time.

52:37

Okay. Thanks for calling. And who's the next caller, Rich? Okay, we've got

52:43

Art in Sacramento, California. Hello, was that Art? Hello, Art.

52:50

Welcome to Iron Sherpins Iron. Thank you. Yes, just to get briefly to the point here, on what 2

53:00

Peter 1 .20 is saying about no prophecy is of any private interpretation, or it says, knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

53:16

Did you know that that and 1 .19, verse 1 .19,

53:22

is all one sentence? Well, actually, the best translation of the

53:29

Greek at that point, that is the idios epilouseos, is from someone's own interpretation.

53:35

That is, it is the statement that's being made that the scripture does not come from the prophet. The scripture comes from men as they are carried along by the spirit of God.

53:46

And so I think that that very phrase, private interpretation, has been greatly abused because it's actually talking about the origin, the source of scripture.

53:55

It has nothing to do with the issue of private interpretation as a person reading and studying the scriptures.

54:02

But, again, I'm not sure what you mean by one sentence. Well, it says here, verse 1 .19

54:08

says, We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well, that ye take ye this unto a light that shineth in a dark place until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

54:18

In other words, until you understand, colon, or semi -colon, colon, knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

54:31

Now, this isn't just talking about that we already have. It says we have also a more sure word of prophecy.

54:39

This is King James. And so we already have this prophecy.

54:46

So it's a matter of understanding it, as it says, until the light that shineth, that you take heed, study, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

54:58

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Let me put you on hold real quick and give you your answer, so we can try to get one more in. The text is saying, yes, we have this.

55:05

We don't need to have anything beyond this. And it's saying that knowing this, first of all, that no prophecy of the scripture comes from someone's own interpretation means that it has come from God.

55:15

That's what introduces verse 21. No prophet is ever produced by the will of man. Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the

55:20

Holy Spirit. But you're exactly right, Art, that we have this. We don't need to have something that's coming along at another point in time.

55:27

Thank you, Art. We've got Daniel in Inglewood, California. Daniel, welcome to Oren Sharpen's Oren. Thank you.

55:34

Yes, could you please read for me 2 Thessalonians 3 -12?

55:42

You didn't give me a chapter. 2 Thessalonians 2 -3 -12.

55:50

We don't have time to read 3 -12. Just go ahead and make your point. Okay. Well, how about reading it? Well, the point is the

55:56

Bible is the authority and the Bible is the word of God. And now you're saying that in Revelation 3 -3, that it's speaking about that specific church.

56:04

It's Revelation 3 -3, and it was speaking about that particular church because it was addressed to them directly.

56:10

So that's your point of view. Show me from the text where it says anything other. Why does it say,

56:15

I will come against you? The only antecedent in the language to you is the church. If you give me a minute to talk, then

56:23

I can show you where in 2 Thessalonians God is specifically talking about Satan sitting in the temple that is called by God's name.

56:31

Wait a minute. You were just talking about Revelation 3 -3. Right. How'd you get over to 2 Thessalonians? Because you, okay, this is my point.

56:37

You see, your problem is that you don't listen, okay? If you listen to the word of God, No, no, my point is that you utilize the

56:45

Bible as if it is theological Plato. The Bible is the word of God. It is the word, and that does not mean that you can abuse it by ignoring the context and the meaning of the original writer.

56:55

I'm not abusing it. I'm calling you to give you a verse, and you're totally not even going through it. No, sir. No, sir.

57:00

Okay, let me read it. Rich, let's go to the next caller. Our audience is not here to listen to our caller's lecture.

57:09

We've got Vida in Los Angeles. Vida in Los Angeles. Welcome to Iron Sherpa's Honor. Thank you very much.

57:16

Mr. White, I really appreciate the fact that you and Mr. Camping had the debate, but I have to tell you, I was really disappointed because I didn't think

57:22

I got a lot out of it. However, I have been anxiously waiting to talk to someone who could give me answers to the things

57:29

Mr. Camping says because I don't understand a lot of what he says, but there does seem to be this vein of something that I think is worthwhile exploring.

57:38

And the last caller was talking about something that I think, and I want your listeners to hear this. 2

57:44

Thessalonians 2, the whole chapter, verses 1 through 12, says something very specific about a great apostasy, and I think what is not happening when

57:56

I hear you talk is that there will come a time, not throughout the

58:01

Church Age, but towards the end there's a specific time in which there will be a great apostasy.

58:07

And it talks about Satan taking his seat, playing like he is

58:13

God, and getting God's people to worship him like he is God, and that God takes himself out of the way and allows this to happen as a precursor to his return, and that he even allows those who are worshipping this

58:27

Satan to be deluded into thinking it is really God because they don't have a love for the truth.

58:32

That's what the chapter says in a sumptuous way. Well, thank you for calling Dr. White Respond, and that will have to be our last call today.

58:39

Well, very, very quickly, that is a verse that Harold Camping utilizes to attempt to say that Satan is seated in the

58:47

Church, and that is, of course, not Paul's point whatsoever. He specifically says that God gives a delusional spirit to those who do not love the truth.

58:55

Then he continues on, verse 13, but you, brethren, and he makes the contrast between the true believers and the false believers who are deceived and led astray.

59:03

Again, you have to utilize the Scripture in a meaningful fashion. Thank you so much, Dr. White, for being a part of this broadcast.

59:10

I eagerly look forward to having you back on very, very soon. Thank you, Chris. And how do our listeners get a hold of Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted, and Christ Church Defended?

59:21

Well, we have a few copies left at AOMN .org, but because of all of this, we're going to be expanding that and coming out with a new edition that will address many of Harold Camping's new heresies as well.

59:31

So be looking for that as well. Yes, and for any of you who missed the first two days of the debate, go to www .aomin

59:40

.org, which stands for Alpha Omega Ministries, a -o -m -i -n .org, or go to sharpens .org,

59:45

the Iron Sharpens Iron website, s -h -a -r -p -e -n -s dot o -r -g. Please make sure to stay tuned tomorrow for Harold Camping and questions from our listeners.

59:57

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

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