When Apostles Talk

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

The Pastoral Epistles as the Church's Operating Manual

Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. We are back in the studio today with Pastor Steve Cooley. And Steve, today, before I get to the subject, wow, that is a wake-up call there. I just think how trivial and how awful we�ve turned Christianity, and when we talk about, you know, �Hey, do we have that Christian coffee

�Oh, Hebrews. Or, �Send Jesus an email. Knee mail, not an email. What are we doing? Can you imagine Paul coming up with some kind of little slang like this?

Well, actually, he was big into slogans and, you know, tokenism and stuff like that. I mean, think about it this way. He said something. Let me see if I can get it right. He said, �Examine yourselves and see if you�re in this faith.

It�s much like send Jesus an email.

Well, yeah. I think so. I think, you know, he can do exceedingly abundantly beyond what we can ask or think. I�m trying to think of some funny slogan.

I can�t do that. Well, he said, you know, what did he say about the gospel, that it was the power of God and salvation?

That was kind of a catchy little slogan. I thought he was talking about flowers when he was doing that. It was the flower power. Remember that when you were kids? Flower power? I was pretty sure it was the gospel.

I thought it was something about the Mod Squad. Was that from Paul? Oh, no. I learned something new the other day. You know, we always joke around with extra-biblical books of the Bible and second Hezekiah and third assumptions and everything.

And then when I heard first Thessalonians, I was hooked, right? Even when Barry was reading Joshua 24 last Sunday night service here, and he was talking about the Hittites and the Perizzites and the, you know... Jebusites.

Uh-huh. And I just kept thinking to myself, it's radio mode, you know, the cellulites, the electrolytes. What are the other ites? I don't know. I don't know. Termites. Yeah. Maddie, my daughter, just got back from Israel.

She studied there at IBEX, the Master's University campus. And one of her fun things was just going there and then instead of, like a tourist who is in the Holy Land, i .e., you know, air quotes around Holy Land, you just are at the Sea of Galilee for, you know, half a day or something or two hours at that site.

She got to, you know, hike and camp and stay out and be there for months. But it was fun to just listen to Maddie talk about, you know, where the Benjamites were and, oh, if Abraham had to go to Dan, how far that would be from Benjamin to Dan.

And so that was fun.

Well, I talked to her briefly on Sunday and just kind of, it really does, being over there, and I think being over there for an extended period of time like that really puts things in perspective. I remember when we were over there for a little bit less than three weeks and just, you know, really understanding the Gospels, not the Gospel, but the Gospels better, because you're just there.

It's like learning the neighborhood, you know, and it really is more like a neighborhood than, you know, sometimes you read things and you just think, okay, he went to the Mount of Olives. Where was that?

It was across the street, you know, it's just like, okay. It sort of puts things, you really get more of a feel for what's going on and just the tension, I think, sometimes becomes more palpable because when you know the geography and you sense how close, you know, everything was and you can see how God was providentially orchestrating things and moving things just by being there, it's really, it is a great experience.

Steve, do you have a desire to ever go back?

Yeah. I mean, now that I'm really learning how to manage my knees better, sure, yeah. How do you manage needs? No, knees, you know, like you start with a knee mail, a knee mail, it's the same thing.

Because you prayed so much over the years, what if, you know, you got hurt when you were a sheriff and so you got some disability stuff and all that, and now, you know, you pray so much your knees hurt, would that be worker's comp here at the church?

How's that work?

It would be worker's comp, but I've learned to pray in other modes because it would kill me. I mean, I just don't have any, there's no cushion left on those knees.

Steve, when I think of evangelicalism, I think of almost everything but 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus. So, I have my ESV study Bible here open to 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus, and I regularly like to read those three books because we call them the pastoral epistles.

And some people think like 2 Corinthians is like the fourth pastoral epistle, and how do we, as elders and pastors, shepherd the flock of God? It's almost like some of these people, the Joe Osteens and the Ed Young Jrs, have forgotten that these three books exist.

How does that work? I think a lot of people have forgotten they exist. You know, if your favorite preacher is Joyce Meyer or, what's her name, the Southern Baptist? Beth Moore. Yeah, Beth Moore. You know, if those are your favorite preachers, well, then you've forgotten the three pastoral epistles too.

What about if we want Moore-Meyer? What if they were on a list of speakers and it was Moore-Meyer? That sounds like a rock band, right? The Moore-Meyer band. Moore-Meyer. Well, Paul writes to Timothy, and he's at Ephesus, and then he writes to Titus, who's at Crete.

And I think we probably should just be expert in those things. And I think sometimes even when churches say, well, you know, we have to do Robert's Rules of Order. When I first got here, everything was voted by a Robert's Rules of Order, and I didn't know anything about Robert's Rules.

And of course, I've learned a lot more since about the pastoral epistles, but I had a good idea what they contained. So I said to the elders once, different elders than what we have now, I don't know Robert's Rules of Orders, but I do know 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus, and so maybe we could just go along with what those men have been told by Paul, and we can figure out the, you know, I second that later.

And they said, neindecker.

How does it work? I mean, this is, of course, ADD Radio again today. How does it work when a church hires a pastor from the outside, and these elders are already doing things the way they want to do it, and now they hire the new guy in?

Should a pastor ever say, you know, do you guys do Robert's Rules of Order before they.

Come? I don't know. That would be a good question to ask, though. I second that. Do you possibly do Robert's Rules of Order? Oh, of course we do. I'll take a hard pass, then.

Paul's Apostolic Authority in 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus

Well, here's the thing for me. When Paul says, to start off 2 Timothy, Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus, by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus, to Call me old-fashioned, if you'd like.

You're old-fashioned. Okay. But when Paul says that, apostle, I think he's trying to say, I have authority.

He's definitely trying to say he has authority. Sorry. He's a sent one.

Right? I mean, that's what he is. 1 Timothy 1, Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus, by command of God, our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, our hope. Call me old-fashioned, Steve, but I think you're old-fashioned.

And when you look at the book of Titus, right, so Titus 1, Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth. I think, call me old-fashioned, you're old-fashioned, Paul has authority because he is bringing the very words of God to these people.

And so, it is no different today. We are under the authority of, of course, all the Bible, but we are under shepherds, and now the Bible, specifically the pastoral epistles, 2 Timothy chapter, 1 Timothy 3 verse 15.

How do you conduct yourself in the household of God, this pillar of faith? What are people doing if they're not going to have these three books as the standard for ecclesiology? Winging it.

I know. Right? And there's no other way to say it. Here, let me just couch this very carefully. You're being disobedient, right? I mean, God says, this is how you run a church, and we say, we generically say, no thanks.

Yeah, whose church is it? Yeah. You know, he says, here are the qualifications for elders, and we say, well, that's okay, Jesus. We're going to vote for them instead, or we're going to have women instead, or, you know what, those qualifications might have been nice for, you know, Crete or for Ephesus, but not so much for us.

Steve, don't you think that when people say to themselves, we really want women in leadership and women preaching, and we want to do the things that we want to do, they're obviously not found in 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus, and that was the initial church.

That was something that we've gone beyond because the trajectory was pointing in a certain direction, and now we're farther along in church history. Don't they ignore, purposely, this apostle idea where God sent Paul to tell Timothy and Titus what to do?

Well, we're in different times, you know, down with the patriarchy. Just had to say that.

By the way, what color was Paul? Do I need to know that so I can know whether to listen to him or not? Well, I don't know, but he was a Jew. We do know that.

But is that dark enough, really? Sometimes we have to have darker skin. Oh, you mean, where did he rate on intersectionality?

Yeah, because I think people in Norway are wanting whiter skin, lighter skin. Finland.

Well, we know that Paul condemned homosexuality, so he loses points for that.

Okay. But I still need to know, I don't want to listen to anybody unless I know what color they are.

Okay. Well, there's a point to that. I don't know if it's a good one.

Hey, Steve, years ago, I predicted, I'm a bad predictor, as you know, but I predicted that there's going to be a commentary series that's going to be of, it'll be mandatory that you have a darker pigment, or at least you self-identify as a darker pigment and publish that.

It's going to happen.

That's really unfortunate. What do I care? Do I really care? I have never, I mean, honestly, if I was reading a book, now, you know, people say, well, that's easy for you to say, you're white, most theologians are white, da-da-da-da, but if I'm reading a book and it so happens to be written by a black man, I will have not even thought about it unless he mentions it.

It doesn't occur to me. I don't find myself thinking, ooh, this guy might be black, you know? I know.

So let's go back to this idea of apostleship and Paul seeing the risen Jesus and being commissioned by the risen Jesus, sent by the Jesus who purchased the Church with his own precious blood, Jesus. And he says, now you have apostolic authority to go tell these people how to operate my churches.

We didn't know, he didn't know at the time, still for thousands of years, the Church would go on, right? They were expecting soon return of Jesus, right, imminent return. For thousands of years. Do I care what Paul's background really is, what he looks like?

He's been sent by God. Well, you should care about his background in so much as whatever has been given to us in Scripture, because that's God-breathed and profitable, etc., etc., etc. But it's interesting because we're not told about his parents.

Do we know anything about Paul's parents based on the Bible? I think... Is it possible that they were a racially mixed couple?

Well, I'm trying to think what they eat in Alaska for special Christmas meals.

I mean, people want to, and this is the thing, right, what does the Bible even say? Not to speculate about foolish things like genealogies and everything. And here we have people who just get so caught up in ethnicity.

I'm not even going to call it color, I don't even want to call it race, because there's one human race that gets so caught up in ethnicity that they forget the Bible doesn't, the Bible just says that we're all one in Christ.

That's what it says. The eternal Son.

I mean, you just have to kind of let that settle in that there's an eternal Son. And he meets Paul, the Christian persecutor and Christian killer, essentially, on the Damascus Road, and he interrupts him and saves him.

And basically, I think that account in Acts, three times it's given, why? Because the new church needs to be encouraged, that the most...the person that persecutes the church the most in all the world has just been slain by Jesus on that road.

And I don't mean physically, but he could have done that too. And now he takes that enemy and makes him a friend and apostle and sends that man to the church as really a love gift, right? This is the goodness of God and the kindness of God.

Oh, I think we could read that into Ephesians 4 very clearly. Yeah, yeah.

And then say, well, you know what? I don't really know. I got to kind of know about his color and his background, intersectionality, his ethnicity. He's a Jew, but was he a Hellenistic Jew? What was his day?

I mean, I am just beyond belief when it comes to that.

Well, and really that way it leads madness. I mean, think about this. If you just read the Bible, you just ask yourself, well, you know, this isn't a very diverse set of individuals writing this book.

Yeah. And by the way, no, we're the women who wrote. So I mean, besides Hebrews, where she wrote Hebrews.

And that's what I mean. This way lies madness, because what you're ultimately going to wind up being is an unbeliever, because you're going to say, this isn't diverse enough for me. If your God is diversity, then get the hints.

I think they probably are hiring over in Emerson and Concord and Lexington and some of those. Yeah. Oh, Amherst, yeah. Sure. Northampton, maybe. Yeah. Steve, I went to Northampton recently to see a concert with my wife and we were walking around downtown.

And the place I took Carl Truman, a Tibet restaurant, it's closed. And that was a place where I had yak with Carl Truman. I couldn't believe it.

I think I was there. And you know what I can hear in the background right now? No, the Bee Gees singing tragedy.

Tragedy. Will you pull up some old Bee Gees songs that are 1960s, like three? Oh. Boy, they were youngsters at the time.

Yeah. Well, they were a very talented young man. But you know, all I can say is yak you very much.

Yanks a lot. So with 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus, and your assignment, congregation, audience is to go read that, those books in the next couple of days. Say to yourself, all right, our church that we attend, right?

You're someplace in Ohio or Canada or whatever. When I read the pastoral epistles, I see our church leadership attempting to try to do what Paul says to the best of their ability. I think you're at a great church if that's the case.

They preach the word, right, 2 Timothy chapter 4. They read the word, 1 Timothy chapter 4. That's why we do both of those, because they're right there in the pastoral epistles. You pray for leaders, 1 Timothy chapter 2, right?

You submit to the Lordship of Christ, all three books.

And they also do this, if I may, 1 Peter chapter 5. So I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed.

Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion but willingly, as God would have you, not for shameful gain, but eagerly, not domineering over those near charge, but being examples to the flock.

So I mean, we have instruction there as well.

Certainly, when Peter writes that, you could add that in to how to take care of God's flock. I agree. Steve, do you think the leaders of a local church should ever remind people to be subject to the authorities?

Would that ever be a good thing to do? Absolutely. Yeah, because it's right there in Titus chapter 3. Thank you for that. And why should we regularly remind them of that? Because it's so hard to do. Right.

I mean, a lot of things in Scripture that are commanded are hard to do. Isn't that funny. How that works out? Yeah.

They're not natural, right? Because they need to be revealed supernaturally.

I mean, here are some things we don't see in Scripture. Think more highly of yourself.

I thought that was a third commandment, by the way, because how can I love God and love others if I don't love myself? Love your neighbor as yourself? There's three commandments in there, Steve, come on.

But I mean, if you talk to most evangelicals, they're pretty sure it's there. It's not there, folks. You know, the hard things are in Scripture. The easy things, well, I'll just say this, the presumptive things are not in Scripture.

You love yourself. The problem is you love yourself too much. We all do that, right? God never has to tell you to love yourself.

Steve, what about pastors who basically take the lead from the congregation, right? Instead of Paul, the apostle of Jesus, with the authority of Jesus, tells me what to do. But I, you know, I kind of have two masters, really, because the church is paying my bills, and if I don't do what they say, then I don't get paid, and I can't eat, and I'm stuck.

What do I do there? Give the people what they want, right? Yeah. No wonder Paul writes in Titus 3, this saying is trustworthy, and I want you, Titus, to insist on these things. Is there ever a time as a pastor you need to insist on something?

Is that why we say sometimes, over my dead body?

Yeah, I think so. Well, I mean, just think about this, in 1 Timothy, again, talking about the pastoral epistles, chapter 4, now, the Spirit expressly says that in later times, some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons through the insincerity of liars, whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from food, etc., etc.

In other words, there are people who are, in later times, are going to create laws, just extra rules. And I think in 2 Timothy, I think that's where you're going now.

Go ahead. No, I was just thinking about extra laws and what people do. You mean to tell me that the heart is not only a perpetual idol factory, but a perpetual add laws onto those idols factories? Oh, it loves to create rules.

It loves to create rules. And talking about the, I want to say the faculty, the congregation being in charge, how about 2 Timothy chapter 3? But understand this, then, in the last days, there will come times of difficulty, listen, for people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving, good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, etc., etc., etc.

And these are the people that you want to turn the Bible or turn the church over to, right? You're going to put them in charge, because when you put the least sanctified people in charge of the church, what do you get?

Like 15-minute messages, right? Bromides.

Steve, you know what? I think you should just probably do a few more shows. I know you did this several years ago in the summer, just kind of on your own shows, no co on your own, you know, I'm busy and can't do the shows.

And then I like to hear about spiritual bromides. He's trying to say I'm hogging the mic. No, no, no, not at all. I just like to listen. Steve, it reminds me of, I think it first happened to me when I was interviewing James White on the radio.

And you know, he just talks and talks and talks and talks. You can't get a word in edgewise, because it's his show. But when I'm having him as my guest, he kept doing the same thing. And I felt like I was just listening to the dividing line, you know, in my own office.

But I thought, oh, I've got to ask him another question. So James, what's going on?

And there's 45 minutes later, okay, I'm going to have to edit that so we can get three shows out of it.

So many guests, I have to remind them. By the way, if I ask you a question, just, you know, don't give me yes or no.

They hear me all the time, but... It's kind of the opposite of being like a witness in a trial where your lawyer, if you've ever had to, you know, testify in court, your lawyer will tell you, look, when I'm asking you questions, it's yes or you can expand on it.

And I'll cut you off if you're going too far. When the other guy's asking, it's just yes or no, nothing else.

With every other guest, tell them to talk extra. When James is on, tell him to land the plane. Just wind him up and let him go. By the way, I think James White recently has said to me that he would have me on the dividing line, but my secretary's still waiting for the call.

How's that work? I'll take care of that for you. You will? Okay. Well, here's what happens. You've got 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus, and you'll see regularly two themes. And those themes, God's a saving God, and that we respond with good works and works of faith.

And I think those two go together, don't you, Steve? Absolutely. And if you are a Christian, you need to be reminded, and your pastors need to remind you about who God is, and I think in light of that, then you respond with good works.

That's just the way it works.

And I mean, we should be always concerned, you know, if we don't respond in good works. I mean, what I find amazing is when you explain the gospel to people and then they respond in other than good works, right?

I mean, if somebody responds to the gospel message with sin and with resentment and with anger, then, you know, that's not what believers do. Believers are joyful because of the message of the gospel that has saved them and has changed their life and has, you know, I think about it all the time.

I just look at my own life and my own trajectory. I would be miserable right now, absolutely miserable and lonely. I know me. I know what I was doing. And I just thank the Lord every day for, you know, salvation, yes.

But I look at my life and I'm going, I don't deserve any of this.

Steve, that's a good point to bring up. What if we didn't get saved and we were, you know, I'm 58, you're 58 or 9? 58. 58. We're 58 years old. I wonder what our lives, our marriages, our divorces, our, you know, whatever, our kids,.

I wonder what they would all look like, what we would look like. My life is a Christmas carol on 12, you know, I mean, it's just like cranked all the way up because I just, you know, I don't even want to know the old me.

So I'm a blessed, blessed man. I wake up every morning. Every morning is Christmas morning and I have to rub my eyes and just kind of go, I can't believe this.

Steve, I'm cantankerous enough, even as a saved man, what would I have been like when I wasn't? It boggles the mind. It boggles the mind. Well, my name is Mike Abendroth. I'm here with Steve Cooley. You can write us, info at nocompromiseradio .com.

If you have show ideas or anything like that, we want to be able to help you. If you've got situations in your church, we want to try to lend an ear and serve you in any way we can. The assignment, friends, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus.

Easy, easy peasy and very edifying. It'll help you.

Mike Abendroth, Steve Cooley, nocompromiseradio .com.

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's Word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.