EXCLUSIVE: Interview with the creator of The Real David Platt Documentary: Jeremiah Burke DMW#247

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The real David Platt documentary is taking social media by storm. We sat down for an exclusive interview with the creator

00:08

Jeremiah Burke stick around Exploring theology doctrine and all of the fascinating subjects in between Broadcasting from an undisclosed location dead men walking starts

00:24

Well, hello everyone welcome back to another episode of dead men walking podcast as always you can find out more about us at DMW podcasts calm

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Check us out on socials real DMW podcast on Twitter X real dead men walking podcast everywhere else

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Thanks for coming along on the ride. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing with a friend. We really appreciate you.

00:49

So this is an exclusive Episode so I won't stay too long on the intro the real

00:56

David Platt documentary has been Released just a few days ago.

01:02

It's already racked up hundreds of thousands of views both parts one in part two I've been railing against David Platt since 2012 after I saw him on the

01:11

Elephant Room documentaries put on by guys like Mark Driscoll Perry Noble James McDowell and then

01:20

David Platt Steven Furtick and just about every one of those guys have been ousted from their church and started a new church with their own authoritarian elder board

01:31

That Allows them to do whatever they want and that seems to be what has happened here in the real real

01:37

David Platt documentary We have the creator and participant Jeremiah Burke on Reached out to him.

01:44

He was happy to come on. So we've got some additional details for you So if you watch the documentary and you had some questions,

01:51

I think hopefully we answered some additional questions for you he was a lovely guest very forthright and outgoing and informational and You know just just an all -around good guy brother in the

02:06

Lord that just said hey there was some stuff going on this church for years and years and we had to expose it and That's what the documentary is about.

02:13

So Jeremiah Burke on this episode We talked probably geez good 45 50 minutes

02:19

I think it was only supposed to be a half hour, but we just got going and kind of talking back and forth but exclusive interview

02:27

Dropping Not weekly. I'm just gonna drop this. I just recorded it five minutes ago

02:32

We'll edit it down get it out to you guys So you can take a look for those who watch the real David Platt documentary part one and two

02:39

This is an interview with the creator and he was a participant in it as well. So next voice you hear

02:45

It's going to be me and Jeremiah Burke. So Jeremiah, thanks for coming on dead man walking. I appreciate it just want to sit down with you and Discuss the real

02:54

David Platt documentary, which you were part of First of all, what has been the response that you've gotten from this documentary because it seems to be very popular over the last couple days

03:07

Yeah, there's been a pretty positive response Majority positive and I mean from what

03:12

I've seen you 97 98 percent pluses has been very appreciative very thankful you know, there's a couple of Bits of negativity and that's fine as well

03:24

But it's it's gone pretty broad. I mean we've gotten We've been contacted from people in Europe Russia a gentleman actually asking to to see if we could give him permission to translate it

03:37

Into to Russian so he can distribute it through through Russia as well, but all over different parts of Europe So it's it's it's

03:45

I guess it's had a pretty broad reach at this point only a weekend So I guess that's that's pretty good news

03:50

Yeah, the internet's a crazy thing how it kind of can go global like that before we get into too much of the doc

03:57

You were prominently Kind of featured in that but I didn't really get to know too much about you and your wife

04:04

Could you give us a little bit of background on who you are and kind of a little bio on you?

04:11

Sure. Yeah, I've well start with myself. We've we've been attending the church for I guess 19 years since 2005

04:19

On a regular basis became members in 2015 I personally work in the wealth management industry and so numbers are always come kind of something

04:28

I'm looking into and following pretty closely My wife is actually a photographer. So that's what she does full -time and The church is actually the reason we moved to Northern Virginia.

04:40

So we're both Kind of from Maryland and then kind of moved west for this church.

04:45

So this has been a pretty big part of our lives since Since we got married Sure, so there for 19 years.

04:54

Are you still still attending McLean Bible Church? So virtually I guess so in 2021

05:03

Yeah late 2021 Church leadership decided to Disfellowship us that's after they kind of trespassed us

05:14

So we we haven't legally been able to go On any of the campuses

05:21

Per our attorney said don't don't do it. So we're not going on on campuses to attend services, but we attend online

05:30

Is pretty much how we attend So it's it's still kind of up in the air. Apparently they just fellowships disfellowshipped us and removed our membership

05:38

It actually that was part of our court case They tried to have us removed from the actual litigation of the judge

05:46

Didn't accept their request actually rejected it and said they had no Evidence to show that they actually ever removed us or followed any procedures to remove us

05:54

So in a way, I guess we're kind of members and I guess the way in the church's I were churches eyes were not members at the same time.

06:01

So yeah, so so I guess if someone watches docu Yeah, someone watches documentary.

06:06

They'd go. Oh my gosh after everything you've been through and kind of how you retreated Why would you still stick around?

06:12

Is it kind of like hey, this is our home church This is where we've been for almost two decades. Like we need to see this thing through.

06:18

Is that kind of the attitude? Yeah, I think for for those who are there kind of before the the

06:25

SBC Kind of got in the church was very influential not only having an impact, you know obviously on our personal lives and the community that was built and Just what you get theologically

06:39

But it was a huge impact on the DC area A lot of politicians and and I guess big players in DC Would come and attend and so it was a very influential church and and it was a beacon of light

06:52

Which is kind of how the documentary opens is just to give people context of what the church actually was. So in the

06:58

DC area It was it was very well known and it did great stuff it really did and so our idea, you know behind the whole documentary and kind of standing up to the corruption was just to Bring the truth to light

07:17

You know restoring the truth and transparency and the original purpose of the church which was to impact

07:25

Washington, you know with the gospel of Jesus Christ and therefore You know with the impact of Washington we could possibly

07:32

Impact the world so that vision that was there for a long long time Before David came is something, you know,

07:40

I think it would be good for the church to have restored Not just for the church of the body, but just for the community in the world in general

07:47

Yeah, no, absolutely. So You're a longtime member there. Like like you said,

07:52

I think you said 19 years. Is that what I heard? Attending for 19 years, but a member since 2015 2015.

07:59

Okay, so Longtime attending their member for a long time as well to coming up on a decade and So when was the first time that you started having some misgivings about what was going on in your home church well,

08:14

I guess for different people it's it's different time so when when David was presented and I Guess we kind of knew it then but we didn't really know it then

08:24

The the leadership of the church was actually violating the Constitution then because they're supposed to bring forward multiple candidates

08:30

To the church, you know for us to see and and there was no candidates It was it was David Platt alone

08:36

So there was no one else and and they admit to that at least some of them admit to that to this day and You know, you know a bit of fault there

08:46

But I didn't even know who David Platt was he wasn't on my radar I guess some people may have known some people may have not not have known but It I think when he first came on there there was a group that that definitely

09:00

Left at that point because of that one the process wasn't followed It was just a violation of the Constitution from the very beginning and two they had concerns with Platt again

09:09

I didn't have concerns because I had no idea who he was Sure, I'd say 2019 is probably when

09:17

And I had some friends kind of after that that I know of it left maybe in 2018 time frame

09:23

And then more in 2019 and that's probably when when I started to have concerns Was 2019

09:31

And you give some grace right, you know sure in there if you see something, but then it just became

09:37

Kind of more egregious and and to the point in 2020 where it's like this is crazy. What's what's actually happening here?

09:44

But that was the same time Kovac came around and they shut the church down So even though there was craziness, you know within the church itself and and kind of what they were putting out content wise the

09:57

There was no way to voice any opposition to what was going on because the church was shut down So I'd say 2019 is is kind of when

10:05

I started to see things and definitely into 2020 for sure Yeah, one of the most riveting parts of that documentary is some of the footage that I think you took if I'm not mistaken

10:17

I think there's there's some footage of you walking into it looks like a congregational meeting or a vote to some kind I can't remember off the top of my head and It was just it was it was absolutely riveting by it by you know

10:29

Catching like David Platt and some of the leaders turn to you and just run and in I could never a million years

10:37

I mean, I'm the church I attend now is the largest church Congregational wise and you know, I'm 43 and I think we have about 600 700 people

10:45

It's the largest church I've ever attended But I could never imagine me walking up to my essentially my pastor and him turning and running and being

10:54

Bustled away by security. He wouldn't even look in the eye I think it was your your lead elder was kind of you know

11:01

Taking him back and he go this is just a from what I saw in the documentary from what you're telling me a church member that had questions and And to be treated like that it really hurt my heart really because shepherds have a very high standard in the

11:14

Bible We read in you know Go read Ezekiel 34 and what he talks when God talks about his leaders turning their people away and what he's gonna do to them

11:21

Okay, you know and you know wolves among sheep and all that And you mentioned that video a little bit earlier.

11:28

Can you expand on that a little bit? like what was the thought process of We're gonna go to this meeting and did we want to record it to make sure like everything?

11:37

Everything I'm saying and doing is on the up -and -up and it can be documented. Was that kind of the idea? Yes, so what was going on?

11:45

They had actually sent Actually, no one knows who sent it there was an email that had gone out earlier that day

11:51

It was signed by the elders or at least the the signature line said elders or NBC elder board something to that effect

11:58

And it was basically saying after our you know, multiple attempts to contact or not contact you but to speak with you

12:04

Etc to address your kind of consistent opposition to the church and its leadership You're basically dis fellowship.

12:11

That was that was the idea and there was a meeting that night and They did it right before that meeting which we were planning on going to that meeting anyway

12:19

Because it was the one meeting they were allowing where you could ask questions on budget on concerns that you had with the church and The church won't have any

12:30

I Guess kind of congregational meetings is what they are. So the last congregational meeting they had was

12:37

July July 18th, and I think you can see from the documentary it opens with threats

12:45

There's police everywhere The reason they say if anybody talks Is because in Virginia, I think it's a class one misdemeanor if you interrupt a religious service

12:54

So what they started to do was combine the actual congregational meeting which is not a religious service with the actual service itself

13:01

There that way they could justify You know pulling people out If you combine right an actual worship service with a congregational meeting because otherwise they under the law

13:10

It couldn't do anything right because it's just a congregational meeting. They would combine Congregational congregational meets with worship services so that they therefore could bring the police in and do what they want to do to silence everybody

13:20

So what they would have is these? Because they can't let the congregation actually know what's happening because the majority of the congregations unaware of Any of the craziness if you will

13:31

So they hold these small meetings where they can kind of control the narrative They can kind of control the questioning.

13:37

And so that's what we were going to was actually one of those small meetings At the church for anybody that did have questions either on the budget or just the church in general

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And you know, we thought it would be good to have record of what they're doing We didn't think they would actually kick us out.

13:54

But you know, we figured you know, I guess there's a possibility there's always that possibility when we walk in but Better to have it recorded so that everybody could see what's actually going on in the church

14:06

Yeah, so so that video and if anyone's listening and they're watching that Documentary we're talking about the it's kind of I think it's in part two maybe and it's halfway through Here's the thing.

14:18

I've worked in politics since 2008. I'm a locally elected official I've been a legislative liaison at our state

14:24

Capitol I've worked on national campaigns been to DC twice did the whole thing right sat down with interior secretaries with Trump and this and that This is exactly what?

14:34

Slimy politics feels like but it was like church politics And I've seen it at the local level to to where it's like, let's tweak this bylaw

14:43

Let's tweak this thing so we can kind of push everyone else out and then our core group of people that have a certain idea

14:50

We can move it forward and no one else's voice matters and that's really kind of how the Documentary kind of spun it and I and I was you know on it from you.

14:58

It's sounding like that's kind of how it was, too so one can you kind of confirm that it almost felt like there was a

15:06

There was there was a smaller group of maybe men or a board with David Platt That was kind of like we're gonna do what we want to do and no one else really gets a vote unless you're on board

15:19

Yeah, wait, can you repeat that real quick? I think I just cut out there for a second. I'm sorry. No, that's fine I was just saying it seemed like there was a small kind of cabal or kind of group of people that wanted a certain thing an agenda and In they would then they tweak rules and things like that and kind of to push everyone else out

15:37

So they could kind of move what they wanted forward. Is that kind of I mean, that's what the documentary Kind of sets up.

15:43

Is that accurate? Yeah, so to a degree yes, so there's definitely a senior leadership team of Individuals who are kind of in that group and that would be obviously

15:54

David you have Wade Burnett who is Another individual they brought on and he's quite a character in the whole grand scheme of things and people should remember his name

16:05

But not necessarily for right now. That's a bigger story down the road But but David Wade Burnett Joe Carter is obviously involved in that That group or an elder board.

16:20

I wouldn't put them in that inner circle I would put them into the individuals that were kind of elevated or inserted into their role because they're they're yes men and David knew that and that's what he had to have so In a way, he's kind of stroking their egos because these are just guys from the church and he's saying hey

16:40

I think you deserve to be an elder. Let's let's put you in the elder board. And so they're they're simply there's yes, man I wouldn't consider the elder board

16:48

Involved in the deep corruption Yeah Some of them, you know, maybe here and there but but they were simply installed because they're all yes men with with absolutely no discernment

16:59

At all, but but there is a group within the senior leadership, which would be David Wade Joe Carter and you could probably include

17:07

Mike Kelsey. He's the new Kind of stand -in for David for the time being they know completely what's going on what they've done

17:15

So, yeah, it's a to a degree. Yes, there are individuals and then to a lesser degree the elder board is

17:21

They're just yes men that were installed by David. Yeah, so in 2011 there was this series of videos that was really pushed by Mark Driscoll called the elephant room dialogues and it had pastors come together and they were gonna talk about the elephant in the room, right and This was so this is 13 years ago 14 years ago

17:42

And after watching that David Platt was in that along with guys like Perry Noble Mark Driscoll James McDowell and sometimes

17:50

I wonder if was that is that the mentality of those guys because Here's what all four of those guys have in common all four of those guys have been ousted from a church

17:59

Set up a new church and then put all of their guys around them with no type of repentance or confession

18:07

And essentially run a church that is very authoritarian instead of you know,

18:12

Presbytery or Congregational kind of like McLean was and it's

18:18

Watching back in 2012. I think I watched I went Why is David Platt lumped in with these guys because back then he was preaching this like poverty gospel like sell all your stuff

18:27

You know, they made like like live for that's how you're spiritual and then years later

18:32

We look at the majority of those guys in those tapes and every one of those pastors and look at I'm not disparaging any of those

18:38

I'm just stating facts every one of those pastors for whatever reason We're ousted or called to repentance

18:45

But finally and then set up a new church and then put guys around them that are their guys and you can't question me

18:51

And that's what really irks me and gets me upset is when you see shepherds abusing power like that And I just wanted to confirm it

18:58

Kind of felt like that at McLean as I watched a documentary of like no look at that There's not gonna be any checks and balances.

19:05

There's no accountability, which is really outside of like, you know, the law It's not biblical right and to have you guys get mistreated like that.

19:14

What was something? Like I said makes my makes my blood boil But um the one question that was just nagging at me while I was watching this and I'm thinking other people might want to know

19:24

If you're a pastor like Lon Solomon who has nurtured a church for decades for years and years and years and then you kind of Hand off the reins.

19:31

Was there any interaction from him going? Look what you're doing to the church or look how it's being divided or or was there anyone that went to him and said?

19:40

Hey, do you have any input on this? I didn't see a whole lot from that I don't know how much you can speak to that. But that was a question that I had watching the documentary

19:49

Sure, sure So there has not been any anything from lawn so we didn't leave anything out that actually was there there there is

19:57

Okay, nothing from lawn. No comment. No, no, nothing I do have some second -hand knowledge from a very reliable source, but so lawn does have either

20:07

I guess we would call it a succession agreement or Retirement agreement of some sort right so that's in play and From my sources it is ironclad.

20:19

He is not allowed to say anything and by that I mean anything negative against the church That's from from what

20:24

I've heard And so he obviously can't come out If he was in support of David, you know, he obviously would have come out if Lon Solomon had

20:34

Any support for what David has done? To the church and then he said you would have seen

20:40

Lon Solomon come out if he was in support He obviously can't come and support our side because he you know, he can't disparage anything the church is doing

20:48

Or else his succession agreement and obviously the money that's that's that's tied to that Would be compromised.

20:54

So Lon has not spoken To us. He's not Given support or to the church in any stretch

21:02

Nor has he given support to our side? He's remained silent and completely neutral at this point

21:08

Yeah. Yeah, that's just too bad. So Yeah, we're obviously here with Jeremiah Burke talking about the real

21:15

David Platt documentary How were you approached on that? Did you have anything to do with the making of the documentary or were you approached by someone?

21:24

Where did this idea for this documentary come from? Yes, so I don't think there was you know, we first, you know, if you see the motion that was put forward

21:36

In March of 2021 at the congregational meeting where you know Basically, my wife asked if we're affiliated with the

21:41

SBC and David You know four or five times in a row lies

21:47

And then I make a motion for his removal At that point there was no plan or idea for a documentary actually, we had

21:57

Planned to just you know, bring it to the congregations attention that evening and let the congregation deal with it

22:02

But the church Seriously overreacted did In my opinion, we're not may not seriously overreacted.

22:11

They just they took the wrong steps following that and then What happened was when when the congregation decided to vote against David's elders because as the documentary states?

22:22

There was a vote and we were voting the elders down and there was gonna be a new elder board put in and they were

22:27

Going to fire David that is 100 % what was gonna happen and the church knew that David knew that So the first vote that they had and they lost

22:35

Then there was another vote And that's when they started to manipulate everything. So I guess it was right around that point.

22:41

We thought wow, this is this is getting crazy and so I guess the intent wasn't to necessarily produce a documentary, but the

22:51

Corruption got worse and worse and worse and You know, it was kind of all out there

22:57

Not a ton of what we had was private apart from our recordings that we took And then it, you know came together and we thought was appropriate

23:05

Three at one, you know just for our local church. So the congregation could see what was actually happening It wasn't the documentary wasn't necessarily intended for the for the wider audience

23:14

It was the intent was for the church itself so that we could deal with the church matter but the David and his his kind of Board of Elders and leadership team became so incredibly corrupt

23:24

I think people are now starting to see that but the original intent wasn't necessarily to make a documentary It was really just to inform our local congregation of what was actually happening in their own church and how they were being deceived

23:36

Yeah, so across media platforms, I mean close to a hundred thousand views in the first couple days and it's picking up steam

23:46

Just because I think people are very aware now, you know churchgoers members things like that They want to know about abuse from shepherds and pastors

23:56

They want to know about things that aren't being done biblically and not know about it because we want to you know

24:04

Heap coals on someone's heads and spread rumors But there are really wolves among sheep and there are people who abuse their power and things like that including

24:13

And let me just preface this. I have lots of friends in the SBC. I'm reformed

24:19

Presbyterian I have I grew up non -denominational I went to a

24:24

Baptist Church So so I've got friends in all denominations as long as they're Orthodox Christians and they believe you know

24:30

They believe the Nicene Creed with that being said I've had some on the SBC side say hey

24:35

This is this is just SBC not really understanding its books and in kind of just being

24:41

Apathetic towards something I have other people saying no the yes This is what the SBC does and it kind of you know, it'll assume someone and use their notoriety to grow the

24:52

SBC I'm not calling you an SBC expert But you were in a church that had this struggle between it correct me if I'm wrong

24:59

Essentially non -denominational to SBC and then struggling over whether or not you're part of it

25:05

What do you place any blame on the SBC or do you think there was anything going on there? That was I don't know secretive or untaught or or anything like that Or was it just oh, we didn't we didn't really understand.

25:17

What are your thoughts on that? Sure. Yeah, I think just from our discovery documents alone The SBC was very involved in in this takeover

25:26

I mean you can blame a lot of it on on David because he's obviously the destructive force behind everything that's happened since then but He obviously didn't act alone.

25:35

Kevin is L very involved in this from the very start I'll kind of just name a couple of names that we do know what was going on.

25:42

Han still back Was aware Brian Autry from the

25:49

State of Virginia SBC V was involved Clint Clifton Who was part of NAM?

25:56

No longer with us actually passed away a couple of years ago in a plane crash. He was very involved so there are definitely

26:02

SBC figures and I think within the SBC world because I know a couple of guys in the SBC who are very good friends and They said this is in the in the higher -up circles

26:14

If this is not only McLean that this has been done to or being done to currently And I guess it's not even a secret amongst them.

26:21

But yeah, they were heavily involved I mean the amount of money that was going to the SBC and the amount of money that was actually flowing from the

26:28

SBC through McLean That wasn't an accident, I mean it's it's

26:34

Not quite a million. I think that was flowing from the SBC to the church and then out Kind of using it as a conduit or a pass -through

26:42

I think it's around 900 ,000 if I'm not mistaken that I'd have to check the discovery documents again But it's it's somewhere in that in that range and they're taking this money and moving it through the church

26:51

So but it was Kevin Azell was very very involved in this Hans Del Vecque was at least aware, but it was it was definitely

26:58

SBC up at the top orchestrated for sure see my thoughts are too if I'm an executive or I'm on any any boards at the national level with the

27:08

SBC and Then I see publicly David Platt coming out and saying we are not an SBC Church, which we know is not the truth

27:16

Was there any pushback from the SBC going like what are you talking about? You're on our website? You're in you know, you're you filed legally that way like all these was there anyone from the upper echelons going?

27:26

No, you are an SBC Church. You're a huge church. That's part of our denomination or did we not see any of that from the

27:31

SBC? Yeah, I we had friends call and people we hadn't even actually met probably until The last two or three years that had called in in 2017

27:42

And and the SBC if you call 800 line, they were very, you know open about it like yeah, McLean is is

27:47

SBC, but the church would deny it and and obviously as you can see today David still denies it but When you call the 800 lines, they were they were very open or even the the state cooperative.

27:59

They were You know open but this is before kind of everything went crazy and everybody figured out what

28:04

David was doing But then you see the deposition tape of Ashley Clayton who was on the executive committee of the

28:10

SBC He was very open with me when I emailed him that yes McLean is affiliated a hundred percent but then when it came to his deposition he backtracked and Unfortunately for him,

28:21

I mean he was lying under oath Yeah, and you could see that in the deposition tape, but I think under it

28:28

Everything was kind of locked down. No one thought this stuff was gonna go public I Guess they just thought it was gonna end and that's maybe why he was willing to lie under oath

28:38

But it's out there now. So, you know, he was involved obviously as well from the executive committee It's always ironic to me when

28:44

Christians who believe in an omnipresent God I think they can get away with lying in secret and it'll never come to light.

28:50

It's like you should fear God more than you fear Maybe someone like you with a little bit of detective skills and you know, it's a motive to expose people

29:01

Yeah, so I just blew my mind that you had stuff on the website Because this is

29:07

I hate to compare it to this again, but this is politics 101. You will literally have documentation

29:13

Dead to rights facts in front of you and the politician will look right at you and say the exact opposite I mean, that's the feeling

29:19

I got when I when you see websites and monies and text, you know stuff And it's all pointing to a member of VC and you got tape out there going we are not a member of the

29:28

SBC I'm just gonna man if I was a board member of the SBC What are you talking about? Like how can you lie publicly when all this stuff supports that way and I know

29:36

I'm kind of chuckling but it's it's really a It's not only angering but it's sad that you'd have a leader doing that and that's why

29:43

I'm so grateful that you did a documentary like this just to kind of expose those things and and bring it to light because And this is the kind of one of the last two subjects

29:51

I want to get to as we wrap this up um You know from what I saw in the documentary and I just want your confirmation

29:58

It looks like for the most part those that were kind of um, I don't know how you want to put it

30:04

The rebels the the milk intense you troublemakers, right? I mean, that's exactly what if I went to the leadership of McLean right now and said that that's what they would call you

30:13

Right, but it looks like you guys did everything Biblically, I mean you really tried to go take the steps go to the elders go to the church

30:20

This was the documentary is kind of like a last resort It feels like I mean you were dealing with this for years and years before he said, okay

30:27

Something has to be done. Is that correct? Yeah, so I mean different groups, um have done different things over the years.

30:33

I mean they Multiple members confronted the church, uh when this first happened But again, it wasn't widespread and they denied and lied about it back in 2017

30:41

And then it's come up even since then um on a regular basis. Um, um some very devout

30:48

Uh individuals within the church have approached. Uh, david himself Uh and and leaders within the church in private meetings, which they shared with me

30:56

Um, they've had documentation that they've submitted and and no answers, uh on this on this sbc affiliation

31:03

Much less the money flow. I mean no one had any idea about the money flow until the discovery documents actually

31:08

You know made that stuff clear as you can see the treasure in the documentary wasn't even aware of the money flow so uh this had all been brought up multiple multiple times over the years and everybody was just shut down or the church would use fuzzy words to describe the relationship, but But they would never confirm affiliation or even affirm that that that was

31:29

Anywhere near true uh, and so it came to 2020 and I just started doing my own digging in late 2020 and Um by 2021 because again,

31:38

I didn't know anything about the sbc. I had no familiarity with it at all Um, but I spent I don't know

31:44

Maybe a thousand hours doing research to figure out. Uh, you know, were we affiliated? Were we not? What was all the evidence and that's what

31:50

I presented on march 31st. Um, and that was You know I thought that was going to be the last congregational meeting

31:56

Um, because that was a motion that was presented and they still actually haven't addressed that motion

32:01

But that's why they won't hold congregational meetings because they can't have anything that they have to actually put in the records Of the church, um, you know things that are happening.

32:09

They can't allow that so that's why everything's been shut down and everything's just uh, basically a broadcast that they do, uh, you know their convenience, but uh, this whole sbc thing was

32:19

Was something that people had brought up for years and years and no one just had the evidence because we didn't have the money flow uh to confirm it and then

32:28

I How I did I actually went to the annual reports of the sbcv and that's where I was able to pull the the transactions

32:34

And those are hundreds of pages. I think 170 180 pages And so if you're willing to dig through those in detail, you can find the answers um, and that's what

32:41

I presented but again, we didn't have any of that until I think 2018 or 2019 had I even known um, and I found it in 2020.

32:47

So But well the church had done everything they could everybody was doing everything they could um, and so the bring it before the congregation was

32:56

Was kind of the last resort and then they they kind of rejected that. Uh, and so We still have to get it to the congregation.

33:05

The congregation must be aware Uh, and so that was the point behind the documentary is to make the congregation of where what's actually happening

33:10

Where's their money going? That their leadership is actually lying through their teeth Every single week that they say we're not a part of the sbc nor were we ever so It was for the congregation.

33:21

So to to to bring the truth, uh to them and hopefully Leadership to be transparent with what they're actually doing now.

33:29

I'm unaware. Is the church still claiming that they're not part of the sbc? Or have they acquiesced to that point yet, i'm sorry, can

33:38

Can I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Sure, is the church still claiming that they're not part of the sbc or have they acquiesced that point?

33:48

Uh, they still uh, uh have never spoken to that, um after they they kicked us out they they've never addressed it um

33:58

To my knowledge, they're still affiliated. I've seen nothing to the contrary Uh to show that they're not um, at least at the state level

34:06

Um the national affiliation they may have removed but the the money flow was was all at the at the state level um, so they may be they may not be there there's no way to tell because they don't even recognize it to begin with but Yeah, that's he recognized it.

34:19

Obviously Yeah, that's one of the most egregious things too is hundreds of thousands of dollars. It seems like maybe maybe millions we don't know being moved back and forth between the sbc and the church and David platt directing it and really no accountability the documentary shows the like you said the treasurer didn't even know.

34:38

Oh, well We just have this box. We just have this bucket. Look at i'm a I had to I had to chuckle to myself because he there's

34:47

I can't remember the gentleman's name, but he goes Well, we don't want a 60 page report if we itemize everything and I'm a county commissioner

34:54

I sit over a 60 million dollar budget. I have a 800 page report And I account for every single pencil and paper clip in every single department that we preside over Because I was duly elected to do so and that's the law and I just had to chuckle and go

35:10

Okay. So now we have a secular state government or local government That has more scruples and morals than a church

35:18

Please don't look at the general fund is is from the devil himself Let me tell you from working at the state capitol.

35:25

That is a slush fund You know you put it in the general and mix it up and who knows where it's going out So when you when you have leadership and a pastor and then even the you know, financial officer saying well

35:35

We don't want to itemize everything then we'd have a really long report to read. I kind of Screamed at the screen and went.

35:42

Yeah, that's exact. Yeah, you you gotta it's work But that's what we expect So, I mean that was that was a big big turning point in the documentary too

35:50

Just the financial stuff here and like you said this went on for years. I'm not making any accusations

35:56

But that's probably just the tip of the iceberg of whatever you could get access to I would imagine in my experience

36:02

You find it once. Yeah, you're usually going to see a pattern of that, you know Yeah, so we know at least two million dollars that went out to the sbc.

36:11

That's that's what was turned over um and there's millions more that were used to advance the cause of the sbc as far as church planting and things like that are

36:19

Concerned which were sbc churches and I think that was a lot of the confusion. Uh was kind of the church didn't the church leadership at least some of the elders probably didn't know what the

36:29

North american mission board was or what it was for Or why the church created an integrated auxiliary called new city network and integrated auxiliaries aren't required to file 990s

36:38

So they you attach that to the church basically and then you can move money Into the church and into that entity and they kind of move it around and no one knows where it goes and that's what

36:46

They had done was basically create this entity where once it goes in there Uh, it's it's going out to plant supposedly churches, but who knows at this point?

36:57

Yeah Yeah, we yeah, we have some checks, but no one knows. There's no accountability or You know show where it went or whether it actually went there or not,

37:05

I guess Yeah, and that's the really frustrating part we should be held to the utmost highest standards as believers in our accounting and Transparency and obviously how we treat others and unfortunately, it feels like the leadership

37:19

Uh under david platt has not held to any of that when I look to a secular government And they have a higher standard than the church of christ and i'm not talking about the denomination the the body of christ

37:32

That that's a real problem And that's why I think these type of things should be exposed and once again why i'm grateful that you made the documentary

37:39

So as we finish this up and put book ends on this Uh What what were the because I didn't really get into it.

37:46

Maybe you can speak to it It looked like the people who were kind of were pushing back the people that were really victims

37:52

I will say and I don't use that word lightly. I think we live in a victim mentality kind of societies, but Looking at this documentary truly victims of of leadership

38:02

It looked like there was a smattering of different reasons why they had some issues or maybe why they were pushing back

38:08

Um, were they financial were they uh theological doctrinal was was it uh, like, you know

38:15

Woke stuff coming in like what was your opinion when you talked? Obviously doing the documentary you got to talk to these people, you know

38:21

Um, you went to church with them Was there a consensus of like one thing and this is why we're pulling back or was it a couple things going on?

38:27

Or just all together. Yeah, I think it was It was a series of things. I think the the initial wave that left the church was almost

38:35

Immediately upon david arriving and I think that group knew who david was and and and had tracked his his material prior um the second wave, um was probably 2019 when um, president trump came and he came on stage and david prayed for him and then david sent a

38:53

Uh an apology letter saying that you know having trump had upset, you know, some members of the congregation uh,

38:59

I think you had another wave leave At that point because then they they thought this this guy is is

39:06

Kind of lost the sauce if he's saying things like this um, and then 2020 Um when they shut the church down,

39:13

I think you had another wave that left then. Um Actually, I think there was another Actually after 2019 was when trump came 2020.

39:22

Um, uh, there was a period I think it was late 2020 when he basically from the

39:28

Pulpit said if you if you can't unite, uh, despite your political differences, maybe you need to find a new church.

39:35

Um, and You know what? It was at that point was basically If you're conservative get out of the church because it was only conservatives that were basically complaining because david's

39:43

I don't know if anybody knows david's a pretty far -left radical um And and 95 of the church was pretty conservative.

39:50

So what he was saying You know if you can't unite with me um on on these political things and basically leave the church is what he was saying and I think that was another wave that left um, and then uh,

40:04

I guess In 2020, they really started to push a lot of the the um, crt agenda, which

40:09

I think drove some people away You know They were having this class called the the gospel the church justice and race and you know before you

40:14

Could go in and comment you had to provide your ethnicity and your political affiliation David wanted to know what they were and then as you go to class and there's comments um

40:23

Basically what they were doing, they would say yeah, we got a ton of feedback. We've implemented this and into the the material uh

40:30

But basically all the comments were this is terrible. You should never produce something like this. Um, and they what david was doing is just filtering out all the comments because 95 of the people in the class were conservative and He would then say wow, we've got a lot of great feedback

40:44

Um, this is what you guys thought and and here's the the product, uh that we're that we're pushing out but it was basically filtering out any any

40:52

Negative comments, which was practically everything was negative. Um, and I think that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way when you know, david's obviously discriminating based on your ethnicity and your um political affiliation as to What what comments he's gonna take and which ones he's not?

41:08

Uh, so I think that drove a lot of people away uh, and by that point, I mean, you know in 2020 you're

41:14

You know these different waves. Uh I mean, you're probably 8 000 people by that point that had left

41:21

I mean was it wasn't the church at something 13 14 15 000 at its height Yeah, so around 13 000, um right around there was was its average attendance.

41:31

Um, and then by well late 2020 Uh after all of these different things 2020 was was a lot of odd stuff.

41:38

Um, I think david margin the blm um Event in dc,

41:44

I think that was another catalyst, uh, but by late 2020 Uh around 8 000 people had left uh, give or take uh, and then 2021, you know, you we were moving into the votes um

41:57

Uh to basically vote david out had those people all stayed and not left david would be gone at this point There there would be no way that they could manipulate the vote

42:05

Which they did I think we provided two graphs which you can see in the um in the documentary.

42:10

Those are showing what the um the membership was after basically right after this july 18th vote, which was

42:17

Uh, basically they were pulling membership members off the membership roll so they couldn't vote or inactivating them um

42:23

For for no reason at all. No one had any idea why Including one of the guys who founded the church chuck, right?

42:29

You might have seen that his mother betty right, uh was one of the founding members He was pulled off the membership roles, but um, it was it was a consistent

42:38

Um series of events. I think that got different people over time uh Um, which ultimately culminated in in people who didn't voluntarily leave because of david and what he was doing, uh

42:50

That they were just removed, uh by the church leadership themselves when it came time to vote. So yeah, that's that's kind of the uh, uh,

42:58

The the order if you will of of how the church membership. Yeah began to decline and ultimately ended inclined

43:05

So last question probably the biggest one maybe one you can't even answer. Uh, But i'm always interested

43:12

What do you think the motive was here for for not only david platt but also for the elders who seemed to kind of go along or if they did have some issues they felt pressured to To go along.

43:26

I know there was I think I like I said I can't remember his name but a gentleman in the documentary who was an elder and he looks right at the camera goes

43:32

Yeah, I was wrong and i'm sorry and you know total change of heart Well, I mean what's the motive here is is it as simple as a

43:41

Greed for notoriety power fame money. Is is it none of those things? Is it you know what

43:47

I mean? Like you're close to that. You were a member there, you know These people you talk to them on sundays and through the week

43:55

Um, are they just horrible evil guys or are they just misguided and falling into sin? Like what are your thoughts on that as we finish up?

44:02

sure, I think for A majority of the elder board, um Unaware probably and and um, and maybe a bit naive as to what was happening behind the scenes.

44:13

Uh, um So maybe a little more discernment might have might have helped for some of them. Uh, Some of them obviously were in on the whole thing and very corrupt.

44:23

Um, so I mean larry cooper who was the chairman of the board obviously had to know what was going on because he none of this would happen if it wasn't for him, but uh

44:33

Dale sutherland who was mentioned there who was the ex -cop? He had been elevated. Um, The whole thing was basically orchestrated by him

44:40

And the sbc and then everybody else kind of fell into place. Um, I personally don't even think david was the was the first option

44:47

Uh for the church. I I personally think it was probably somebody like jd greer. Um, but that's that's just my guess

44:54

Uh, because david coming up Even had they not rammed him through I don't think anybody would have

44:59

Had it been a legitimate, you know put him up with other candidates I don't know if people would have taken him because he um

45:06

I mean not to disparage him. He doesn't he doesn't really fit the sophistication of the dc area. Um, you're very very intelligent people here and um

45:14

David just isn't you know, given options. David is not the person that most people would probably pick.

45:20

Um, Plus I feel like you would you you'd probably have a pick of many being such a large kind of mega church even at that time and You know, yeah with the history you have as the church in the location.

45:31

It would probably be a desired area for a lot of pastors Sure, sure Yeah, and they did have good pastors in the past and they all went off to to kind of pastor their own churches and things like that um, but the

45:43

You know, I think from from inside some people was just naive. Some people were very involved in going behind everybody else's back

45:49

Um, and that would definitely be dale sutherland. Definitely larry cooper the former chairman of the board Okay, um and then david was obviously involved the current

45:57

Uh kind of co -lead pastor wade burnett, uh, very very involved. Um, uh, he was kind of I guess the liaison in my opinion between the spc and and Uh and mcclain kind of getting it all orchestrated

46:08

But the spc, you know in my opinion you know McClain, I mean we had a massive budget.

46:15

I mean there was a lot a lot of money. Um, I don't know if that was their primary reason. Uh, I think for The Maybe the greater

46:23

I think there was multiple goals. This is my personal opinion the greater spc uh, probably trying to get influence because the denomination is is

46:30

Declining right and and kind of numbers and influence and I think they may maybe wanted some more political influence

46:36

Yeah, and mcclain was the place to get that. Um, so I think that was for the spc probably their primary goal Kevin, azelle,

46:42

I think he saw it as uh, okay. They've got a lot of money. Uh, we can use their money to to create um all of these spc churches and give the impression that we're that the denomination is expanding and we're expanding in an area that's kind of hostile to the gospel because the dc area is is

46:59

You know, they're not necessarily gospel friendly. So if you can create the impression by creating all these churches, uh, or planting all these churches, uh,

47:09

You know, you can make it look like oh, you know, all of your money is is being Put to good use and we're really growing the denomination

47:15

Uh, so I think that was kevin azelle's um goal, uh to create this perception that churches were growing

47:22

Um churches were being planted. Uh, but it's all it was a perception game for him because none of that is reality. Um, Many of those are defunct, uh at this point

47:32

And for david, I think it was an escape for from imb and a way to Also access some money for radical um as you can see we're funneling money and I think um

47:44

You know what happened in in 20? I think it was 2023 They changed the constitution of the church that the membership no longer has the right to see the financials of the church um, and I think right around that time maybe even a little bit before is is probably uh, when you're going to see a quite a bit of money start flowing to radical my personal opinion, but um,

48:06

Uh now that I don't think they're really funding the sbc anymore, although they could be uh, I think it's an opportunity for david to uh,

48:13

Redirect those funds to radical. Yeah, and who knows? I mean no one's allowed to know right the the church congregants can't so Final final question before I let you go.

48:22

Is there any is there any court updates or anything like that? Since the documentary dropped anything that you can update us with Uh since even you know a couple weeks ago.

48:30

Yeah Um, so our case we we personally dropped our case because what we were trying to get at was the financials

48:36

Uh and the affiliation which was easily proved in in the discovery documents and the depositions um and our attorney

48:43

Felt it was best just to drop it and make it You know open to the public which the judge agreed with he thought it was a public interest case uh, because it was involved the largest denomination in the country along with uh,

48:54

At this time the largest church in the dc metropolitan area. And so the judge basically agreed this this is this is public interest

49:00

Um, so we ended up dropping our case, but there is another case still in the courts It's three years old and that's the one on the illegal removal of members, uh from the 2021 vote uh

49:10

And that is still in the court, uh, they're actually going to the appeals court It's been the appeals court already kicked back to the circuit court.

49:15

Um, They had a hearing a couple weeks ago and they're going back to the appeals court But what the church is fighting at this point is they're fighting.

49:23

Um, Uh discovery they don't want to release any discovery documents as to what they did in 2021 to remove members

49:29

Uh, which is what the plaintiffs are asking just let us know who you removed and why you removed them But the church, um, they're they're fighting tooth and nail

49:37

So that one that one's still in play Yeah, so spending spending all kinds of uh tithe money over just hey

49:44

Just show us some documents of how or why these people were removed. I mean, it's it's insane if you really think about it

49:50

Um, yeah, jeremiah. Thank you so much for spending some time with us uh today Tell the people a little bit about what you got going on if they can follow you somewhere if you got social medias or anything

49:59

Going on, uh throw it out there and we'll make sure we link it up below Uh, sure, yeah, so there's a 501c3 that we formed kind of uh to provide truth and transparency not only for mclean uh, but but for any other churches or organizations that uh think it would help, uh, just bring glory to christ by You know not lying if you will

50:20

So it's called church reform initiative Um, and you can find it at church reform initiative .org.

50:26

I believe there's also a twitter handle That might be church ri or church reform initiative

50:32

But if you know how to work x or twitter, you can probably find that as well Um, but that's what we have going on now um and hopefully we have some more stuff, uh in the future for you guys that uh

50:42

There's quite a bit more than what you're actually able to show in a two and a half hour documentary the amount of corruption is uh is pretty intense, uh, so There's a lot more content we have what we do with that.

50:53

We're not sure at this point. Um, but if you follow the church ri Twitter handle or x handle or um

50:59

If you just go on the website, you'll you'll get periodic updates and you can find a lot of the discovery documents that were turned over Uh, some were shown in in the documentary some were not but you can find them all on the church reform initiative .org

51:11

website All right, cool. We'll get it all linked up and when you drop more information, um, you're welcome

51:16

Anytime to come on the podcast discuss it jeremiah burke. Thank you so much for coming on today Yeah, thanks for having me.

51:22

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51:30

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51:36

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