June 7, 2017 Show with Mike Abendroth on “Things that Go Bump in the Church: Explaining the Bible’s Most Misunderstood Teachings”

The Program Opens With Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and the Day's Guest

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this seventh day of June, 2017.

And I am so delighted to have back on the program someone who has definitely proven himself to be an excellent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and that's Mike Abendroth. He's pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts, adjunct professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

He is author of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Preachers, and the Sovereignty and Supremacy of King Jesus, Bowing to the Gracious Despot, and he's co-host of the No Compromise radio program. Today we are going to address his book, Things That Go Bump in the Church, Explaining the Bible's Most Misunderstood Teachings, which he co-authored with Clint Archer and Byron Yawn.

Not a very good name for a pastor, that's for sure, Byron Yawn, but hopefully we'll have Byron on the program at some point. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very—I was just about to say for the very first time, I can't believe I said that.

It's a delight to welcome you.

Back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Well, guys, I'm glad to be back, and I think I did such a good job the first time, that's why you canceled me the last time. I didn't.

Cancel you, I think I double-booked you or something like that. Well, that's okay, you.

Can take the PhDs over the D-mins any day. There's a pastor here in New England, and his name is Wes Pastor, and so I guess they call him Pastor Pastor, or Reverend Pastor,.

So. Yes, I've heard of Wes Pastor. I've never had him on the show, but I have heard of Wes.

Pastor. Yeah, I want to say it's a New England, some kind of adjunct teaching school for the.

Baptist in Vermont. Okay, and the book that we are going to address, published by Harvest House, is something that I'm sure is going to help our listeners today with some misunderstood issues in the Scriptures.

And by the way, also in studio with me is my co-host, the remembers to turn my mic up, I am here. No, now he's here, unfortunately. Well, as we usually do when we have pastors on the show, even though they've given this description before, since we have new listeners it seems every week, tell our listeners about the Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts.

Sure, well we're just in the center of Massachusetts,.

It looks like Worcester, and that's how the GPS pronounces it. And we have been here, I've been here for 20 years, to the church at Harry and I think of Luther, Germany, and Luther starts the Reformation.

He said, I just preached the Word of God, and then I went and had a Wittenberg beer with Philip and Amsdorff, and I went to bed. I think we need to correct something.

Here, he didn't actually see Luther there. No, I know, but I saw about 14 statues.

Okay, I went to Germany and Luther said... No, I was there for a Reformation 500 conference with the European Bible Training Center, and James White and I were both staying at the La Correa from Europe, and those kind of guys too.

Great, yeah, and you interviewed them simultaneously, I understand. Yeah, well here, this is a good backdrop story. So James was going out, so then... He somehow did some background check on James, and he said, I'm supposed to be debating who?

He backed right out of that. And so the leader of the Reformation 500 conference, if I could just come as well, I, James, and you, Mike, can be the evangelical. And I looked at James and I said, I'm dumb, but I'm not stupid.

There's no possible way I'm going to do this. I'm a pastor and a preacher, and you're the apologist, you know, debate guys.

Yeah, you know, I have to ask James if he has actually ever done that, where he has played the devil's advocate, as they say. In this case, it would be quite appropriate if he was defending the Roman Catholic Church.

I saw, I don't know if you have, but I've seen a debate that was, it was really a mock debate that took place years ago between R .C. Sproul and his mentor, the late John Gerstner. And John Gerstner played the devil's advocate and was an atheist.

And R .C. Sproul was trying to defend the existence of God, and Gerstner was obviously playing the role of someone defending the position that God does not exist. So, I think that was their theme, but it was quite interesting to see that.

Well, when you talk about John San Diego for Ligonier Conference, I believe in 1992, in my mind to think a message entitled, How to Escape Hell. And then he said, I have to amend this. If anyone ever tells you that you can escape hell for sure, he's a false prophet.

So anyway, I was thankful for the ministry of John Gerstner.

Yes, he was one of my early heroes in my new life after rebirth. And I had seen him preach a number of times, once at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, once at the Westchester Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and at least one other place, I believe.

And I can remember seeing James Montgomery Boyce turn white as a ghost, sitting behind Dr. Gerstner at 10th Presbyterian, as Dr. Gerstner said from the pulpit, You cannot be an Arminian Christian. Actually believe what you say you believe and be saved.

Let me repeat that. You cannot be an Arminian Christian. Actually believe what you say you believe and be saved. And I think that was quite horrifying for Dr. Boyce to hear, even if he may have agreed with him, I don't know.

But the fact that the Bible study hour was such a popular program, spanning denominational lines, that I think he was a bit taken aback by that public statement. Well, the first time I went to the PCRT.

Was in, I think 1989. And I don't think it was that year, but it was another year where Boyce, of course, he's got the gravel, had the Christian message, and the message was entitled. And of course, he explained what he meant, but I was sitting there looking around thinking.

How the Book Was Written and Why "Things That Go Bump in the Church" Was Chosen

Well, we want to make sure that we get as many of the biblical issues or biblical teachings that are misunderstood covered in your book, Things That Go Bump in the Church. Just briefly, how did you collaborate with Clint Archer and Byron Yon on this project?

Yeah, thanks for the question.

What I do in my life is, while I might not be talented, I know how to recognize talent. Both of those men are English teacher when he was in the secular world. And so we'd all been to Master's Seminary.

He's known for other things, but they maybe need a little platform with some reformed thinking in the probably early 70s. And so we thought, what if we put Things That Go Bump in the night? By the way, did you know that I'm from Amityville?

I did not know that. I was born.

And raised in Amityville and did not move out of Amityville until I came here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Did flies have anything to do with it? And the movie actually came out probably closer to either the late 70s or the 80s because the actual murders occurred in the early 70s, where Ronald DeFeo murdered his entire family, including one of my friends, who was my classmate in Catholic school.

And his original story after being arrested was that demons told him to do this. He later changed his story. But that's where the horror story came into play when the family that moved in after that murder left and wrote the book.

And there is some question as to whether it was just to make money because they could not even afford the mortgage on the home, or if it was actually supernatural things going on. And I used to scoff at the story and immediately dismiss it.

But I am wondering now, at this point in my life, whether there could have been supernatural things not connected to the house, but to George Lutz, the man who was the husband and father and co-author of the book, because he was involved in the occult.

He dabbled in it. I'm not saying he was like a high priest in the Church of Satan or anything, but he dabbled in the occult and was reading occultic books and so on, books about spells and seances. So you never know.

I mean, I don't know what goes on in the demonic realm. Sometimes we Reform people too easily dismiss it. But anyway, I went a little bit too.

Far with that segue. Sorry about that. Oh, no, I think that's interesting because, you know, sometimes the charismatics will say that demons are real and there's an invisible warfare that's going on. I think demons are still around.

That helps to understand a question I've.

Always had, too. This is the Reverend Buzz Taylor, by the way. He keeps saying that because everybody says I sound like him and he doesn't want to take credit for what I say. The blame is a better way of putting it.

But, you know, I've heard those things. I was charismatic for a while myself and I used to hear about the demons of this and that, you know, and I used to wonder, what did the demon of smoking do before we came over here and discovered smoking?

Well, I know. And I just have been in Germany and Europe for the past two months. And so, you know, their common vice is not certainly smoking. It's, you know, every time you sit down, it's alcohol. So is there a demon of alcohol, but a different demon for drunkenness?

I mean, it just these inconsistencies. But with the book, what we thought was, you know, Jesus, when he said doesn't carry it anymore, but that's decided.

Endorsements for the Book and the Value of Hard Teaching

Yeah, well, I'm going to read some commendations from some folks for the book. The aforementioned James White, a mutual friend of Mike Abendroth's and mine. Things that go bump in the church is a wonderfully readable, communicative and comforting nightlight for the inquiring Christian seeking guidance through the tough questions that are so often kept in the shadows of the fellowship.

That's an excellent commendation there. Stephen J. Nichols, who's also been on this program. He is, this is certainly outdated because now he is the president of Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Florida.

This has a different, this is a professor of Christianity and Culture at Lancaster Bible College. So this is a little bit of outdated there. But anyway, Stephen J. Nichols says, imagine always eating chocolate cake and never partaking of vegetables.

That's James White. Have we simply become too addicted to the comfortable, too addicted to being affirmed, too soft? Even nature knows the dark night of the soul precedes the light of the dawn. Read this book and you'll see how these hard doctrines, like our daily dose of broccoli, can be so good for us.

And by the way, I just want to give a disclaimer here. James White is quite a health enthusiast, but the food aspect of his Olympic level training and cycling and so on does not match his diet at all.

Well, when James and I were in Wittenberg together,.

I told him where I found some protein powders out. I guess there are exceptions. And my friend.

Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and he's also an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor not far from where I'm sitting, about an hour away, I believe, who is coming back to the program, God willing, in the near future.

In fact, this may interest you. I don't even know if you know this about Jeffrey, Mike, but Jeffrey is one of the very few Orthodox Presbyterian pastors who does not accept Catholic baptism. Well, he's a better friend.

Well, he is coming on to discuss that at some point. But Jeffrey C. Waddington says, This book proves that sound teaching can be engagingly written and served with a dash of humor and punch. Things that go bump in the church is hard-hitting yet pastoral in the best sense of that word.

The authors are experienced pastors and students of God's Word and the history of theology. You'll find yourself caught up with the flow of the text, unawares as various controversial yet important doctrines are discussed.

I recommend this book to Christians everywhere who desire to become mature disciples of Christ. Let me also just read the background, a brief bio, of Clint Archer and Byron Yawn. Clint Archer is pastor of Hillcrest Baptist Church, South Africa, and he holds an MDiv, a THM, and a DMin degrees from the Master's Seminary.

When he's not preaching or writing, he likes to date his wife, wrestle with his three kids, and ride his motorcycle. And Byron Yawn is the senior pastor of Community Bible Church in Nashville, Tennessee, and a much-sought speaker.

Byron has an MDiv and DMin degrees from the Master's Seminary as well, and is married to Robin and has three children. But I guess he doesn't like wrestling with them because that is absent from his bio.

Well, if he's from Nashville, that would not be wrestling, that would be raffling. First of all, I want to give my email address out for our listeners. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. If any of you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Mike Ebendroth, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA, and you may remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter.

The Nature of Sin and the Need for Self-Examination

Well, what is sin, and if you could define it, and it's interesting that you give it the title in your book, the hairy wart on the witch's nose. Well, it's interesting.

To me, especially in the day and age we have now with some big shots and evangelicalism, they sound like Kierkegaard. Of course, that's an aspect. It's just not the right way to think about sin. People try to blame God.

It's nothing new. Let's not do that. Yes, and I can still.

Remember vividly when I first became a born-again believer. I was on a car ride with a Missouri Synod Lutheran friend of mine, and I love my dear Missouri Synod Lutheran brethren, but those that are truly regenerate would have to admit that there is rabid nominalism within that denomination and many of the mainline denominations.

And my friend at that point was a nominal Christian, a Lutheran, but lived his life like every other average non-believing individual, not to any excess or anything like that, but just your average secularist.

And when he was asking me about my new faith, he said to me, now, you don't think I'm a sinner or something, do you? And I said, well, the fact that you don't think you're a sinner is the first reason I think that you really are not born again.

Because isn't that a crucial aspect of the Christian life is that we are aware that we are sinners and that we are in desperate, urgent need of a Savior because there's nothing beautiful or meritorious or deserving of salvation from a holy and righteous God.

Absolutely. And when you think of Romans 7 and 8, if you wanted to...

Yeah, the skier tumbling down the hill, the mountain.

Yeah, and it was the...

I didn't even hear what you said. What did you flub that?

Yeah, the agony of defeat, you know, and so that's switched around with Romans 7 and 8. You've got the agony of sin, oh wretched man that I am.

I don't know if you ever read the late Jerry Bridges book, Acceptable Sins, or if you've ever heard of it, but he was basically saying that many Christians are so focused on those scandalous, overtly wicked sins that even your average person who is not even a Christian might view as aberrant behavior, and we forget those things that are more subtle in regard to how those not only in the community and the lost world around us view it, but even as the church tends to view them with less severity, but they are still serious sins nonetheless, and that we need to examine our hearts for these things, you know, things like gossip, things like pride and arrogance, things like bigotry, covetousness, and even lust and things that are more easily gotten away with, not with God of course, but with our authorities in the church and our brethren in Christ, things that are private sins and so on.

But we as Christians sometimes are looked upon as those who are always pointing out the sins of others like homosexuality and adultery and fornication and dirty movies and vulgarity and things like that, but we really have to be constantly examining our own hearts for those sins that may escape the attention of others, am I right?

Well that is so true, and I was thinking.

About Romans chapter 1 and 2 as you were talking about that. Sometimes we forget that self and you can just sense, yes those are anything else, but I was... Did you bring up your co-author again? I.

Heard you on somewhere. But at the same time that you say that, I have to say, I don't know if you share my concern with this, I hope you do, but there is a backlash to what you have said in the church where there are even very prominent speakers, even some that would be within the Reformed faith, who, I don't know if they're intending to do this, but it appears that when they are giving their public sermons and lectures and writing and so on, they very often, in my opinion, give the appearance that they are equating homosexuality and other sins of that nature as being on the same level of severity as gluttony and lusting after someone's wife, but never consummating that, and coveting your neighbor's bank account, that kind of a thing.

We have to be careful, though, when we say that all sin will send us to hell, to Christ, it's certainly true. But isn't it true that we cannot blur the lines of distinction between sins because there are sins that are much more heinous, and the way that the church responds to those sins must be different.

I mean, obviously, you're not going to treat a member of the church who is known to be a glutton at the church picnics, you're not going to treat that person in the same way as an unrepentant homosexual.

Well, Chris, I think we're on the.

Exact same wavelength. We as evangelicals are very quick to somehow, it's not only a lawless act, someone of the opposite sex, it doesn't go against nature, but it's still sinful. So, I just think we're so PC these days, we can never say, look, there is a different degree to this.

We just want talking points. If you have one time stand before God, and you don't have all of Christ's righteousness, it's going to be a nuclear winter for eternity. And so when we talk about homosexuality, because people just want to put it as sin.

Yeah, especially because what happens is.

Everyone who is a Christian recognizes that they still sin. The scriptures clearly say that he who says he is without sin is a liar. So therefore, if everybody sins and all sins are the same, then why not ordain homosexuals, active, unrepentant homosexuals, or even those that would be chaste and believe in monogamy, and they think that that is somehow acceptable before God because they're not running around having all kinds of anonymous affairs and all that kind of.

Thing. Well, along those lines, Chris, keep in mind that the Apostle Paul in Galatians, when he was listing the deeds of the flesh, he said that he looked at the temperamental sins of just hatred, jealousy, envy, things like that, and said those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God, but yet he never put a death penalty on those.

Things in the scriptures either. Right, exactly. And so basically what I was trying to say is that if you try to force all activity that is sinful on the same plane and same level of severity of evil and disobedience and rebellion, and therefore since all of us sin, then you're going to be making all kinds of exceptions for not only membership in the church, but leadership in the church, and even one being viewed as a true brother or sister in Christ, those litmus tests, if you will, are out the window, and you're basically welcoming nearly anybody as a brother.

And sister in Christ who says they love Jesus. Identifying something as people that repent only God with their heart before God, they need to be, and it reminds me of my old days when I was a remember all his sins and he's going to his mentor, stop it, I've got to get those, but the dawning moment for Luther, so God can provide and really be glad whenever you think of sin.

I'll be thinking of awards on witch's noses. Well I don't know if I've ever met a witch, but I listen, and I always tell people, you know, I wish that was the first thing that I thought about, but.

Unfortunately it is the Salem Witch Trials. Well I didn't even know what you just followed up with,.

So. Well sometimes you should read the Cotton Mather biography, because we don't deal with any of this stuff, and so with Mather's impressions and subjective feelings and hearing from the Lord outside of Scripture, if the witch trials could have been done from.

A cessationist perspective. That's a definite idea for a book, I would look into that book theme if you were into writing a book on that subject. Well I have a few planned, but that's not in the pike here lately.

We have to go to a break, and we have a whole bunch of listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered, so let's go to a break right now, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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Because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Mike Abendroth. We are discussing his book, Things That Go Bump in the Church, explaining the Bible's most misunderstood teachings, and some of the issues that we hope to have enough time to address today are sin.

We've already gotten into a bit of that. Not that we are actually practicing sin. I mean, as far as the discussion that we're having. And also some other chapters that Mike has specifically written on in the book, like hell, and like unconditional election, and discerning the voice of God, and church discipline, and others.

So, in fact, there is a chapter on homosexuality. We were just discussing that, but that was written by Byron Yawn, but I'm assuming that Mike is familiar enough with the chapters he did not write where he can have something to say on them as well.

But if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And let's take a question from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and this is Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and I have to enlarge the font on Ted's email because it is microscopic.

Okay, here we go. You have made it abundantly clear that you prefer verse-by-verse exposition to topical preaching, and hey, who wouldn't? But what is the biblical foundation for this preference? Did the apostles go verse-by-verse through Isaiah?

If so, I must have missed that part of Acts. Wow, Ted's got a little bit of a sarcastic bite to him there, and he obviously has some knowledge of you, Mike, for him to draw a conclusion of something like that.

But if you could respond to Ted's comment-slash-question, if there is really a question.

There. I began teaching the Bible. I do regularly, and then he began to preach from that particular passage. I don't think it just happened. If I had to say why would I believe in verse-by-verse teaching, I would say, number one, that's a good way to teach through any book of the Bible, because I don't want to miss anything, and I think it makes me not

You could make a good case.

And couldn't you also add to that that the New Testament writers were receiving new revelation? You are not. You know, the fact that you don't hear an exposition of the Old Testament by the New Testament is because, largely due to the fact that they were receiving new revelation.

There is a New Testament. There is a New Covenant. Yes, well, that and what lies behind Ted's question, he doesn't like expository preaching. He's afraid of redemption that goes on. So Compromise Radio, if he

And the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to add there.

I would think the main argument for expository preaching is simply believing in the inspiration of the Bible. I mean, you know, I remember years ago when there was a lot of talk on Christian radio about the First Amendment and original intent and all that.

We should be more concerned about original intent when it comes to the Scriptures. And if the Bible really is inspired, we have no business talking about anything but its original intent. We need to get back to that, and I can't think of any other way than expository preaching.

And it also is helpful in preventing hobby-horsing, isn't it?

Well, everybody's got a hobby horse, and so now if you You know what, I didn't write these next In God's Word What God's Word said Easier Eric Alexander, if he taught on regeneration, to teach on it.

So The logical, rational As a matter of fact, I think that's how you read a book

Eric Alexander, you just brought back a fond memory from one of the first, in fact, perhaps the first Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology meetings that I ever attended. He was one of the earlier regular speakers there.

As you said that, I just got an email from Ted, and now I know who this Ted is.

Friend or foe?

Ted is my friend. I just didn't know he was from Tuscaloosa. So, Ted is a linguist, and I think years ago, when I started No Compromise Radio, he fed all my no-co shows into some computer for analysis, and then he told me the things that I talked about the most.

And I think back, you know, six years ago, he said, I regularly said, the quote was, according to

Well, believe it or not, we already have to go into another station break, but hey, Ted, thanks for your question, and you have also won a free copy of Things That Go Bump in the Church by Mike Abendroth, Clint Archer, and Byron Yawn.

Thanks to our friends at Harvest House Publishers. We shipped out to you thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who ship out all of our winners in the Iron Sharpens Iron audience, their free Bibles, books, DVDs, and other things they win by sending in their questions for our guests.

So we thank Todd and Patty Jennings, owners of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, for their faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are going to a break right now. If anybody else would like to join us, if we have time to squeeze you in, we do still have quite a number of listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered, and we'll get to as many of you as we can.

But our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, with Mike Abendroth. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world-class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above. For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333. That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.