August 3, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white. I.

Have the foggiest idea what that topic is. We keep saying I have one I don't normally and I was thinking today. I always say good afternoon this is James white, but if you're listening first of all, you already heard the first part and that said that and Secondly you would have had to have been like looking at the archives or listening live and that means you're already in that.

Anyway, so it's sort of a waste of Space and time. Well, not really space. Well server space, I guess but anyway There's really no reason to say that because you already knew that eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one someone in challenges said they missed the dividing line last week.

That's almost inexcusable especially since Thursday night we had Steve camp with us and that's always a lot of fun. And then we had to Frank with us. And that's always fun, too because we you know, I feel sorry for Frank Frank has a tough a tough job out there in the in the Retailing industry and and things like that and and he gets abused a lot in channel especially by certain people from South the Mason-Dixon and So he called in and if you if you didn't listen then, you know You're gonna have to you're gonna have to grab it on on the archive at Aomin org, that's a o min org, which is probably how you're listening to this anyways that's just how it works, but Anyhow, eight seven seven seven five three three three, you know, there's three threes that sort of Trinitarian.

We should send that out we should send our number off to Gail Ripplinger and have her Analyze it and see what it it adds up to okay. Okay. I've got this fixed now.

You can't have a fix and now with no particular topic in particular.

You know that deserves get something over here this work that. Do you think they have that on? Like a like cart or something like that a sound or something like that because that would be really annoying.

No, you really have to go after it there.

All right. Okay, man, you really have to do that. That's not just something you can do just a little bit to sort of straighten the page out. You've really got to go after it. That's something else. But he is the professional I am but a a geeky theologian type guy somewhere in an undisclosed location.

And with no particular time with no particular topic we were playing Star Trek music before we got started. That's how and no particular topic stuff we have. Yeah, we need the stack of stuff. I have a stack of stuff in front of me, but it's really not relevant.

I don't think you really would be concerned about most of the stuff that I have in front of me at the moment some interesting books around here things like that, but We still have that. I still have that.

Famous Famous Catholic converts around here. But the former former Baptist rapper. Yeah, he was he went to our church. We we rap all the time we rap all the time at our church. Yeah I'm gonna miss that too.

I you know. Go on cruise. Listen to the rapper go on. What do I do? I don't it's really a hard decision to make it really is is very difficult. We're listening to the the theme a suite of songs from the trouble with tribbles and.

The scary thing is that there were people in channel. It knew exactly what that was. And then somebody told me about someone they went to school with who had memory memories. That's good memorized the dialogue of all like 78 episodes of the original Star Trek now that.

That's frightening that that's in fact. I think that is probably sick. And probably should be that person needed help and probably did not get any help because we don't see. That portion of our society.

I think I should let John Kerry know about this. We can start a new health care crisis. The health care crisis that has been prompted by people memorizing all of Star Trek. I'll bet shit. You know I asked the guy in channel.

I said did you lose did you have you kept in touch with him? He said no. I lost track with him after school. I think I know where he went. I just realized where he went. He's working in Las Vegas as a Ferengi.

I ran into him. Because I'm absolutely positively serious about this while we're waiting for the all the calls to come flooding in. We went up to the Star Trek experience once me and my family my wife my two kids, and they were much younger then and We went to the to Cork's cafe.

Where you go through the ride thing it's one of those virtual reality ride type things it was really neat you get on the you know the bridge of the Enterprise D, and and That was really cool, and and ready for a break.

I Forgot that he who is in control of the board is not a Star Trek guy, but I'm gonna finish my story anyways and. So you know after you get out of this thing they of course? Dump you right out in the middle of Cork's cafe, so they're hoping that by then you'll be hungry, and you'll sit down and pay out Outrageous amounts of money, and I do mean Outrageous amounts of money.

I mean for the family of four well I guess it wasn't too bad as I don't know 65 bucks or something like that for four of us. That's about 12 bucks. Not 12 times 448 no you the tip and all the rest that stuff anyway.

And it was a lot of fun I mean your burgers came in this in the shape of the start of the end of the Federation thing and and all the all the Foods were named after Federation stuff and Star Trek stuff what was really funny was they had people in full dress, and we're talking they had Ferengi and Klingons walking around the restaurant, and I'm not talking about just walking around sort of waving and being stupid.

They were not only in complete makeup. Just like they just walk up step the set of Star Trek Authentic stuff and we're not talking about the original Klingons here we're talking about the later ones with all the all the stuff and.

But they're in character completely in character and so The first the Ferengi come by and this one Ferengi offers to buy my wife. He offered to buy my wife, and I tried to bargain with him, but he wouldn't move and so I wouldn't do it and Okay, I will finish the story then we'll move on to important things, but Then the Klingons came by and all that was fun I mean they the guy had a glass of Blood wine you know and he was talking about how he liked it just a little bit coagulated, and I mean these guys we asked him about the first time they ate gach and He goes into this whole long story about it biting all the way down.

And I mean they knew everything they were completely in character. They they knew this stuff, and that's why I say this guy from the university must have been Must have gone to Las Vegas and gone to work there.

I have just been given permission to change the topic as long as I use my British accent. It's great, but I'm just gonna finish this story, then we'll take the calls. Okay. Just just stop whining about it there's there's three or four people that find this interesting and this one Ferengi walked up to me, so I thought I'd be cute and I threw a question out at him, and I said so what's the 39th law of acquisition and if you watched deep space 9, and you know what the Ferengi and the laws of acquisition all the rest of stuff and He gives me this odd look.

And he says he says well There's some confusion about that. There are various Terran books. That's us human people. That lists the 38th law as such-and-so in the 39th law as such-and-so. And then there are some that listed the other way, and I'm sort of like oh boy that was smooth.

I mean you don't know the answer so you make it sound you know and I was I was pretty impressed by that. That was that was pretty good, but as we're leaving much poorer than when we came in I run into him in the hallway over next to the Places where you can buy all sorts of Star Trek memorabilia and things like that, and he said and he remembers me and He he takes me in he says let me show you so I'm like okay.

He's good. He's gonna keep this show up. He takes me over to the book rack and he pulls these two books off, and he opens them up. I mean it didn't even have to look for him. They'd have to look in the index or something opens them up and shows them to me and they're two different lists of the laws of acquisition identical except for 38 and 39.

He knew it he had him he had memorized him. But knew that there were two conflicting lists. And I just happened to pick the one place where there was a difference, and he knew it. So that's why I say I think the guy who went to university with the guy and memorized all the stuff in the original I think he's I think that was him.

I think that was the Ferengi. I really do and I'm not sure if he's the one who tried to buy my wife or not, but Like I said, I did. I did not he wouldn't he wouldn't go high enough, so I didn't do that so okay.

Goodness it is lined up on a blog somewhere. What do you bet? What do you bet someone will blog about you know it doesn't matter what I do. They'll find a place. You know if you if you call someone by their last name if I you know if I'm not happy with someone I'm not gonna call him by their first name like we're buddy buddy.

Especially when they're busily slashing my face with razors or something, and then they'll they'll get on me about that. And it doesn't matter though. They'll find a way of finding some way to do it. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

What's the Ferengi equivalent of a King James only advocate I? Don't know all right. Let's you know what I forgot to open a window mr. A ailment type person because I was I was talking about Star Trek and and things like that so I know that we have a call and and I know that I know that it's on Mormonism so who am I with whom doth I speak?

Hello hello Eric. Hello, Eric. I can hear you now. Hey.

Maybe a quick question. How did you stop them? Well? They were walking through the neighborhood, and I. Okay? Yeah, I didn't trip them up right. Well.

Say well the funniest things I ever see in my life is when I was I had that for a little while. I had this yellow Nissan pickup truck and it's it's Transmission went out in about three months, but anyways I had this pickup truck.

And and I had put behind the front seat my tracks and my Bible and stuff like that because it wasn't the King Cab or Something then you know how trucks are is not a lot of place planning. And I saw he's two more missionaries riding down the road up around Shea and Tatum.

On their on their bikes, and so I hung a geely. I pulled in front of them and. And I pulled over the side of the road and I got out as they rode by. I said hey guys wait a second. So you just got a picture this we're on a sort of lonely road.

They pull about 10 feet in front of me. They stop they're still on their bikes. But they've they've stopped and they're looking back at me. And I'm pulling the seat down in my truck. And I'm reaching behind the seat in my truck for something and when I pop out of the cab with my Bible and tracks.

They look like they are there is white as sheets, and they're expecting that. I'm pulling a 12-gauge. That and I'm just about to make the martyrs and you know what that conversation was very short. It was it really didn't go anywhere.

So I was just wondering if maybe you would use the same type of really bad tactic or if you just stopped him and were Nice to him. So anyway, I felt sorry for those guys. I didn't realize what I was doing until it was all over with.

Yes, they do so you were talking with some missionaries they during the conversation.

I was trying to make a point. They were talking about their burning bosom. And and they have these feelings and I could not is just frustrating as can be. Felt like they were right, and I couldn't get them to accept or admit.

So I started it. I was trying to the one guy said look have you written all you know ABC type book on. Yeah. Would you say that's even a waste of time. No no it's not.

It's not a waste of time the books called letters to a Mormon elder and and we still have it available through the ministry. And it's available online as well, and it starts off with exactly what you're talking about the the Mormon testimony and and how to get them to Step on to objective ground if it all possible, but it is interesting.

You know I wrote that book in 1990 and Here we are Almost a decade and a half later now 14 years specifically I wrote over the summer of 90 so That while I had encountered some missionaries Like that at that time the vast majority had not yet become that Utterly subjective and wishy-washy as far as their thinking is concerned and hence you could You could quote some materials to them even from their own Prophets and Apostles.

Certainly obviously Mormonism up until the last couple of generations Did not believe like they believed they did believe there was such thing as false religion and pretty much everybody else was in it and You could you could get them you can still talk to missionaries who really really believed What They believed was true, and that what I believed was demonstrably not true and It's a whole lot easier to deal with someone in that situation than it is to deal with someone like who you were talking about but You the only way you really could go with someone who who would actually go to the point of saying we will not discuss verses.

Even when you could say well, you know I'll use your translation if you'd like to you know so on so forth. A couple things you could do a you could say so are you saying that no one can really know what?

The Bible says if that's the case and why did Brigham Young say? Receive the truth no matter who presents it to you take up the Bible and compare it with the religion of Latter-day Saints. See if it'll stand the test drill discourses volume 16 page 46.

Why would he invite us to take up the Bible and compare with what you're saying if I can't look at the Bible and know? What it actually is saying so that I can compare with what you're saying you you seem to have a different view Than Brigham Young did would be one one direction to go but the the fact the matter is the the Mormon scriptures just don't simply Present that kind of worldview.

I mean in the Doctrine and Covenants. You have a section about Refuting those who who disagree with Mormonism and God would make their shame manifest and you can't do that Without engaging them in some form of dialogue and discussion and so that's really much more a modern Problem that that you face in dealing with with LDS people today and to be honest with you I think it's also one of the reasons why the numbers on Mormonism are Going down and not in the sense of you know Mormonism isn't shrinking.

But the the massive growth numbers aren't there anymore instead what you have is what would be called natural growth you have the children of Mormons Being baptized in the Mormon Church, but you don't see this this huge growth that you had During the late 80s and into the into the middle and late 90s that has really changed, and I think that part of it Really does have to do with you know something that I think some politicians need to learn.

And that is when you when you start trying to go just for the middle of the road. When you when you start going for only the undecided's. You don't excite your base anymore, and that's what's going on in Mormonism as well.

You don't have you know when you're when you're basically saying well your religion is good for you. My religion is good for me. That doesn't really excite anybody. I mean, that's just that's not an overly attractive way of presenting things and.

So I think that may be related to what's what's going on there I think there's it's there's multiple a multiple number of reasons obviously as to What's going on as far as growth goes the Mormonism, but yeah, it's it is important.

I think to try to reason with such a person and bring them to a point where they Are are forced to deal with the fact that God has revealed his truth and Mormons have always had a subjective foundation for dealing with truth, but it's become much more pronounced over the past number of years and.

And we're encountering more and more it's but it would be pretty rare. To run into missionaries who wouldn't even look at a passage of the Bible the old saying used to be well We don't Bible bash. That's the terminology that they they use we don't Bible bash.

But the very idea of even looking at text of Scripture as if it was just a complete waste of time. That that really is more of a modern type of situation and really at that point. You're you you have to approach them as you would pretty much almost any Pagan who has been convinced that God has not spoken with clarity in in the Word of God and.

So you you know with a Mormon one really profitable direction is to go well you believe in the Holy Spirit, right? Well, of course. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth? Isn't he describes the spirit of truth in the Gospel of John?

Well, yes. He's describes the spirit of truth. So the Holy Spirit will not testify of that which is untrue. Well, yeah, okay. So now we can now we can define truth. Can we not is there is the will the Holy Spirit testify to you?

That Joseph Smith was a prophet but testify to me that Joseph Smith was not a prophet well, no, I guess I guess he couldn't do that because Joseph whether Joseph it was it was not a prophet is a is a fact that exists it's a true or false statement and it was true or false for you and I were ever born and so what I feel about or you feel about doesn't change whether it's true or false, right and Then you know move on from there.

So there there are different directions that you can go and try to get into a gospel presentation with them that point. But it does require establishing that we can know what the truth is.

I think I'll download this for an a peg and just play it off my iPod. To a quick question on the sovereignty of God and love. Sure what is I've heard him I'm confused over he. If I understand correctly, I've heard him multiple times talking about that.

God doesn't Love the name. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, I don't want to be number one. Mm-hmm, and what is the wanting it when after they receive it they love it and they want it. I don't I mean what is driving that?

Well the answer to the To the second question what is driving that is a philosophical commitment to libertarian free will. It is a term that's in years past Hank did not use but it is a term that now is is determinative of his of his philosophy and hence of his theology which is built upon that philosophy and libertarian free will requires Certain elements to exist.

It is ironic. I mentioned I think last week I played a cut from the Bible answer man were. The accusation of ice of Jesus and John 6 was being made so on so forth and in the process, I don't know if I Remembered to mention that that was toward the beginning of the show.

You've got libertarian freedom so so then toward the end of a show a guy calls in and he was going through a tragedy in His life and it was ironic that that Hank defaulted back to his own upbringing within the Reformed camp.

In answering and talking about God's purpose and and and no meaningless suffering. I'm sorry those two positions don't happen to go together. You can't fit them together. They one comes from a completely different perspective than the other.

But very frequently our prayers and especially how we we respond to tragedy are significantly better than our state of theology. And that's that's the case and in that that situation as well. So what drives it and what is is offensive?

To the libertarian is the is their commitment to. That that centrality of free will if I am dependent upon God making me alive. If I am dependent upon God for resurrection to spiritual life. Then I as an individual Cannot hold to libertarianism and so it's offensive to me when I hear someone saying that and so you have the misrepresentations.

Those are caricatures when you talk about someone being dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. That that is that is a complete caricature of of the Reformed position. And yet those kinds of caricatures are very common and you'll hear them repeated very often.

I mean all you got to do is I can start down the list here with the Adrian Rogers and Johnny Hunt and and pretty Much a number of the major leaders in the Southern Bapst Convention, for example. Use that very same terminology all the time and it sounds good and it illustrates your libertarianism.

But it doesn't actually represent what Reformed people believe because none of us believe that anyone is dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. What we do believe is in something called spiritual resurrection and it's it's so odd for me to listen and and just you know when I say odd, it's just I wish I could could Try to get through this kind of thinking but all the time when people call in they're talking about witnessing Situations and trying to be faithful and trying to you know, hang on and and keep sharing with someone Hank will talk about well.

You know, it's God that changes the heart. Well, wait a minute. How why isn't that offensive? Why isn't that the very same thing as kicking and screaming into heaven and everything else if God has to change the heart the very?

Center of man. Then doesn't that tell us something about man's need beforehand that he doesn't have this this libertarian freedom and and and if. Does God change everyone's heart. Does God only change certain person's hearts it when God changes the heart?

Well that sometimes fail and sometimes succeed. That was what we were trying to get into the very last hour of the debate that we had on the Bible Answer Man. And We didn't unfortunately get very far because a ran out of time and be George Bryson was taking a very different position than Hank was on it because I was trying to point this out.

I was trying to point out Hank's own usage of that that phrase God has to change the heart and and George goes well, well, of course he does and I said so everyone whose heart is changed is going to come to Christ.

Well, no, no, no and seen that there that's where they ended up splitting company. But that didn't really come out very clearly. I could tell in the studio that was the case, but I was trying to bring that out.

But we we sort of ran out of time and it went off in another another direction. Anyway, so I'm not did I answer both your questions? No, no, believe me I've been I've been the receiving end of it it's anger.

No, I I didn't. They it was very obvious it the as I mentioned in the in the discussion of it afterwards it was How do I how do I put it it was a sad experience for me and I had seen. How those experiences how those encounters went at least a dozen times before I had been the Bible Answer Man and I had never seen anyone treated in that same fashion and so it had been fairly intense during the breaks and It was very obvious to me that you know, there was a particular perspective that was going to be promoted it didn't work.

But it was very obvious to me and and you know, what can I do in that type of situation? I'm not going to make a fool of myself. I'm just going to try to stick to the issues and that's exactly what happened when the caller started calling in.

The truth came out. I mean you know you had a caller call in and ask about John 6 and one side was able to go directly to the text and let The text speak for itself and the other side. I mean just you know I went off on on on a tangent someplace and and left everybody going hey Wow one side keeps touching the Bible and one side doesn't and We're actually gonna be making that debate available We'll be purchasing them from CRI and then making them available to folks would like to have them.

So.

Anyway, don't just tell people not to listen to it before they go to sleep. Yeah.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and If you would like to talk about more theological issues Then you can give that number a call if you don't call during the upcoming break.

That means that is that is the the the audience's way of saying to me That you want to hear more about my Star Trek recollections in a British accent. What's that ailmen. We're going off the air. Power failure.

I didn't say a power failure. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna take a break and we'll be back right after this.

It's all In a manufactured grace myself some religious place by weeping.

Justification by Faith Alone and the Heart of the Gospel

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified.

But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers the doctrine of justification? Is now being challenged from within the walls of Reformed evangelicalism itself.

Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue justification the heart of the gospel. With pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture our pillar and foundation of truth David King the president of the Southern Baptist Conventions founders conference Tom Askell New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers Eric Svensson the founder of the Spurgeon archives and president of grace to you Philip Johnson Nationally renowned reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author.

Dr James White join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org Org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God. James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in a readable and responsible style.

Author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611. You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error. Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the New Covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a o min org. That's www .aomin .org.

Responding to a Mormon Question About Subjective Testimony

And I'll go back to the dividing line, my name is James White and we're taking your phone calls. We had a number of.

Suggestions during the break for topics in the second half including. One fellow in in, Louisiana Who had a how about a John Teshien version of John Denver's lost tapes written by Manilow? sung by you as you imitate Captain Kirk in Britain and.

As I thought about what it would be like to try to do that. I realized that it was far far beyond my abilities and So I I'm sorry, but that is a request I could be able to fulfill and I would sort of like to hear a tape of someone Fulfilling that request it would be rather odd.

Um. Hmm let's go ahead and talk with Frank in in San Jose. Hi Frank. How are you good? How you doing? And I just wanna make sure everybody knows you are not the Frank who called last week.

No, I this is actually my first time listening to your program live. I listened to a number of your programs on on the archive, but first I'm calling in that's it's much worse live, isn't it? No.

See Frank last week was a bookstore owner and so I just don't want anybody getting mad at you. You know, like you're a bookstore owner and being upset that you're selling TD Jake's or something.

I said look I work at a bookstore to sell TD Jake's. I try to hide those books.

That's sort of hard to do when you have to put on the end caps or on the top ten bestseller thing. It's terrible. But anyway, what can we do for you Frank?

I was knowing your debate. I listen to debates all the time on the Internet and I Wasn't a debate you did a number of years ago on justification with Mitch Pacwa and I'm the you got a chance to answer one of the things he said about Matthew 18 about the parable of the forgiven death.

Where he said, you know where one of the services forgiven by his master. Then he doesn't forget someone so the master like throws him in jail. Mm-hmm and so Mitch Pacwa was trying to Show that your justification basically depends upon upon your actions.

How would you how do you answer in referring to that parable?

Well obviously the in dealing with any parable the the issue is the context of what is being communicated and and Jesus is not communicating there anything about the nature of Justification and with all these parables is sort of like the you know in Matthew 25 did you the ones who enter into his glory and into his presence are the ones who visited the sick and and did all these things and so we didn't mean that by doing those things we obtain our justification or.

The whole thing goes back to the same Same thing I've mentioned many times before and that is when we look at passages like this are we talking about something that is Prescriptive like you write a prescription for someone as to what to go do it's a prescription as to how one becomes right with God by doing X Y or Z and then you have the Descriptive understanding and that is this is a description of someone who is right with God.

This is this is what a person who is right with God does this is how they behave. This is how they act. And so when Jesus is talking about forgiveness and The the great forgiveness that the king gives to the individual.

Well, what's what's the result in the individual? Does he does he show any evidence of? True thankfulness does he show any evidence of even understanding the extent of the forgiveness that has been extended to him?

No, and so Jesus's conclusion for that from that is not to mention justification. It's not to mention Therefore you can be in the New Covenant and come under the curses of the New Covenant or anything like that.

His his conclusion to to the issue is if you don't forgive others you yourself. You're not gonna be forgiven. So is that a prescription? Is that how if I just go around being a Gandhi forgiving everybody?

Is that how I is that how I'm gonna gain forgiveness? Is that what Paul taught is that what James taught that what John taught that what the people who knew Jesus taught? No, it's not. But if I have been forgiven then we go to Colossians and what does Paul tell me well I'm to I'm to forgive my brother in light of the recognition that I myself have been forgiven my understanding of my being forgiven.

Then becomes the ground and source of my forgiving and that's one of the biggest problems just on a very basic leaving the theological realm for a moment the uber theological realm the high level theological realm and entering into Where theology interfaces with life?

It's very difficult for people especially in personal relationships within the church within marriage within families. To forgive when they themselves are that are not forgiven when they themselves do not understand what it means To truly be forgiven and I saw that as a hospital chaplain over and over and over again.

Especially with people who were grieving who could not forgive because they had no knowledge of the gospel or anything like that and it was a Terrible thing to observe and so that's how if I mean, you know, you can't really get into that in a debate.

But if I had the time to respond to it, I would have just discussed the prescriptive descriptive Issue that comes up when you're dealing with any passage in the Gospels any parables anything like that and would have said well here again we have the the difference between a Man-centered religion and a God-centered religion a religion that says if you do these things you will live which is what the law said and then the faith of Jesus Christ where he did those things and he did those things perfectly and he gave his life for his People and all honor and glory goes to him and not any part of it to me.