Osama bin Laden, and Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white. And welcome to the dividing line on the 3rd of May.

How did that happen another year passing by even faster than the year before? That's normally how it works a a big day in in world news. Slowing down a little bit but lots and lots of stuff still coming out.

Got home from church Sunday night and Ironically first heard about these things in my chat channel and on Twitter. In fact, it was interesting I was seeing things posted in our chat channel before Fox News was reporting them.

It's fascinating. How media has changed over the past couple of decades and especially over the past decade? Stuff I mean somebody was live live twittering the attack and didn't even know what he was live twittering there in Pakistan.

There was a guy Started twittering about there's a house helicopters, and he had actually moved out of Islamabad to get to a quiet place. Yeah, he was watching the whole thing didn't know what it was.

Didn't know bin Laden was in there and he was twittering the whole thing and people only found out about later fascinating stuff, but It doesn't necessarily change the fact that We don't get a lot of the information that we need to be getting just because we get a lot of information doesn't need Doesn't mean that we're getting the best information or the most needful information, unfortunately and One of the things that has struck me in listening to the coverage of the end of Osama bin Laden is once again the attitudes that are being Communicated and of course for me considering the whole issue relating to the Islamic faith and Osama bin Laden as a Muslim and as a a man who was called Sheikh by many Muslims and Who argued a particular theological position?

Osama bin Laden's Religious Motivation and the Al-Qaeda Reader

Fascinating. I read this morning Sheikh Yasser Qadhi's comments on the death of Osama bin Laden he obviously opposes opposed bin Laden, but he is of two minds as Obviously he would be in his situation Having opposed bin Laden and bin Laden's theology but at the same time Recognizing that there are a lot of people rejoicing and You know how is that viewed?

By people around the world certainly I know how we felt when we saw people in Pakistan and Afghanistan and places like that rejoicing on 9 -11. There is at the same time a recognition in Yasser Qadhi's article that far more Muslims many more Muslims were killed as a result of The activities of Osama bin Laden than Westerners by by a long shot.

And that explains a lot of things there's a lot of people in Saudi Arabia. You know the reason that the the Middle East is such a powder keg is it is that there's such a mixture and only very stringent Military control can Keep those mixtures from becoming explosive and you see that happening in Syria.

I think you would see that happening in Saudi Arabia very frequently. It's a small minority. That's ruling over a large majority and in Saudi Arabia. You you know Osama bin Laden was detested. Because he was calling for the overthrow of the monarchy there.

Because they basically had submitted to the West that the Arabian Peninsula was the the place from which attacks against Iraq were launched and so on and so forth and. So you you have a lot of things going on, but what generally has not been discussed.

Because I don't think most people understand it or want to understand it or you want to go there it's sort of like when someone calls into a Radio talk show host at radio talk show today and starts quoting the Bible you you've got about three seconds before the guy's gonna shut you down.

Almost anywhere and So They don't want to talk about the religious nature of Osama bin Laden's worldview. I've heard almost nothing about it. I've heard about how terrible and nasty a guy is and you see the same video of him firing an AK -47 over and over and over again and and walking through the desert and blah blah blah blah, but the reality is This man was Motivated to do what he did by religious principles that few people seem today to want to understand.

Oh, he just hijacked a peaceful religion. Really? I Mean, that's not even that's not even you know. Just from a simple debate perspective if you want to in some meaningful way defeat this man's philosophy and worldview.

Don't you think you need to get us a little something more than that maybe a little more in-depth than that? I would I would hope so. Want to read you a few things. I Wonder sometimes if I'm on a watch list someplace because of the books.

But years ago when I first got my Kindle one one of the first books I wrought I wrought yeah, that's good I bought was the Al-Qaeda reader and It is a source book of Of materials written by Osama bin Laden and by his lieutenants.

You would think it would be stuff that would be read and understood by everybody because you want to understand what motivates people but Doesn't work that way. Let me read to you al-qaeda's declaration of war against Americans and You tell me if this is a religious motivation or a non-religious motivation.

Praise be to Allah who revealed the book the Quran controls the clouds defeats Factionalism and says in his book then when the sacred months have passed Slay the idolaters wherever you find them seize them besiege them and be ready to ambush them.

Quran surah 9 ayah 5 and prayers and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah Who said I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped. Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my commandments.

Never since Allah made the Arabian Peninsula flat created its desert and encircled it with seas. Has it been stormed by any force like the Crusader hordes? That have spread in it like locusts. Consuming its wealth and polluting its fertility all this is happening at a time when Nations in which nations are attacking Muslims in unison as if fighting over a plate of food in Face of this critical situation lack of support.

We are all obliged to discuss current events as well as reach an agreement as on how best to settle the matter. No one argues today about three well-established facts known to everyone. We enumerate them as a reminder so that the one remembering may remember.

Number one for over seven years America has been occupying the lands of Islam in its holiest of places the Arabian Peninsula plundering its riches dictating to its rulers humiliating its people terrorizing its neighbors and turning its bases in the peninsula into a Spearhead with which it fights.

The neighboring Muslim peoples now realize that from Osama bin Laden's perspective the u .s military presence in Saudi Arabia, which of course is there at the invitation and acceptance of the Saudi Kingdom.

Is a crusader horde plundering the Saudi Arabian Kingdom. Just so you understand. While some people may have argued in the past over the reality is the occupation all the people of Peninsula now acknowledge it.

There is no clear evidence in America's ceaseless aggression against the Iraqi people all launched right from the peninsula though its leaders collectively refuse having their land used for this end, but they have been subdued and That's very important understand.

They believe that these Nations the Islamic nations have been subdued by the crusader hordes number two despite the awful devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people the hands of the crusader Jewish Alliance and Despite the astronomical number of deaths which has exceeded 1 million.

Despite all this the Americans attempt once again to repeat the horrific Massacres as if the protracted sanctions imposed after the brutal war or the fragmentation and devastation was not enough for them.

So now here they come again to annihilate what has left this people and humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Number three. Now if the Americans purposes behind these wars are religious are religious and economic Put the two together.

We are we are not accustomed To thinking in this way, and that's why people don't understand Al-qaeda and the lengths to which they'll go and the places they'll be willing to live in the sacrifices. They'll be willing to make.

But if you're calling American forces crusaders you're hearkening back to images of Allegedly zealots with with crosses upon their chests and And They were religiously motivated indulgences or revolts it might have been but now if the Americans purposes behind these words are religious and economic and so you must understand as foolish Irrational and insane as it is There are many people of believe that this is a crusader nation a Christian nation Seeking to do to spread Christianity.

That's why we're there never mind the fact that it's a it's a minority of The soldiers in the field that are Christians and a small minority of the Christian population. I'm sorry the American population that would even in any way shape or form Seriously live a Christian life even try to live a Christian life.

I didn't say Self-identify as Christians and in a pew research poll or something like that that that's that's irrelevant. If you want to identify Christians you ask a question does it impact their daily life if it doesn't then the numbers become irrelevant but they believe that there are religious and Economic reasons so too are they also to serve the Jews petty state Israel?

Diverting attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and the murder of Muslims there. There is no better evidence of this than their eagerness to destroy Iraq the strongest Neighboring Arab state and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq Saudi Arabia Egypt and Sudan into many paper States whose disunion weakness will guarantee Israel survival in the continuation of the brutal crusader occupation of the peninsula.

Remember, where was Osama bin Laden born in Saudi Arabia? So he's much of his rhetoric is focused upon that. Did you know he was the I saw I saw the number yesterday 17th of 54 children something like that That Tells you something anyways all these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah His messenger and the Muslims now that's vitally important.

You need to understand that the quote-unquote moderate Muslim Says there cannot be jihad without a caliph. The caliph is the universal leader of Muslims. There is no caliphate today and Hence there is no caliph despite Ergen Kanner saying that his father as he passed away was surrounded by caliphs.

There's not one let alone many caliph is a very special very Recognizable office and position and there isn't one today. And so the moderate Muslim says there can be no jihad because once the caliph declares jihad Then the coffers life and property becomes default and can be taken by any Muslim.

But without that declaration of jihad that can't happen without a caliph that can't happen. Therefore this stuff is invalid. But if one arose and we all agree to use the caliph, then it would be cool.

We could kill you. There's the that's that's why we're not, you know overly You know Made to feel warm and fuzzy by The existence of moderate Islam at that particular point in time when people take that particular position.

Anyway It's vitally important for the al-qaeda position to be that There has been a declaration that a state of war does exist. And therefore we do not need a caliph to tell us What's going on the jihad is appropriate because anybody with two eyes can see That the Muslims are under attack.

They've been fragmented and if we simply wait around till they can all get together and elect a caliph and then the caliph declares jihad. Then we're all going to be destroyed. That's that's the argumentation that adwara laki is using and You know al-qaeda continues to use to radicalize even Americans to their position radicalize convert Convert them to that position.

Well, Emma, which is a plural for those who have been confused by Eric and Cantor's books. Well, Emma throughout Islamic history are unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty. Whenever the enemy terrors in the lands of the Muslims.

This was related by a mom been kudama in al-mulkuni Imam al-kisai in al-badai al-kutubi in his commentary and the shake of Islam Ibn Tamiya in his chronicles where he states as for defensive warfare.

This is the greatest way to defend sanctity and religion. This is an obligation consensually agreed to by the ulema after faith. There is nothing more sacred than repulsing the enemy who attacks religion and life.

It's important to recognize Ibn Tamiya especially Ibn Tamiya has been interpreted by various people, but one of the most important interpreters of Ibn Tamiya and Communicators of his perspective is Wahhab and hence you get the Wahhabi sect there in Egypt.

This is a Salafi perspective. It's a very stringent very Fundamentalist Interpretation of things and Many intelligent people hold to it from the Islamic perspective anyway on that basis and in compliance with the law's order.

We hereby issue the following decree to all Muslims the ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military is An individual obligation incumbent upon every Muslim who can do it and in any country this until the Aqsa Mosque, which is the one in Jerusalem and you ever see you see a picture of Jerusalem the cityscape is dominated by the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Holy Mosque in Mecca are liberated from their grip.

Until their armies withdraw from all the lands of Islam defeated shattered and unable to threaten any Muslim. Now think about for a moment folks. What what that means? In essence what this is saying is Americans have to be killed all around the world until the Saudi regime falls and the state of Israel.

Because You can't even go to the Holy Mosque in Mecca. I can't even go visit the Kaaba because I'm not a Muslim. I'm not even allowed there. And yet Al-Qaeda is saying well, yeah, but you all control it because you all control the government that controls it.

So there's there's a statement. This is in accordance to the word of the Most High fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together Surah 936 and the word of the Most High fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression and all Religion belongs to Allah surah 839 now think about that for just a moment fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression and All religion belongs to Allah.

I think oppression there or to one of those two is fitna as I recall. Which is why that one movie was called fitna. Until all religion belongs to Allah that that's not exactly a good ground for what we might call ecumenical dialogue.

But that's how it's being cited now again. You have to ask Well, how do the non al-qaeda Muslims interpret these verses well. Generally, they would say well, these are all defensive wars. Well, that's all kind of saying Al-qaeda saying this is a defensive war you've invaded our lands and Our leaders have been subdued by you and therefore These are defensive wars.

But they would say no because you know if you look in the law Muslims made pacts and agreements about living without Attacking certain lands in which they lived and and therefore they're violating these things.

It's a little bit harder for them to make their arguments. It honestly is a little bit gonna offend a few people here. But it's a little bit Like Trying to deal with King James onlyists and One of our calls is on this.

It's easy to preach King James onlyism. It's really easy. I could I could be a great King James only preacher. All you've got to do is you pick your text not difficult to do you you find first Timothy 316 and you?

Put together a list of things and man you can preach him and godless liberals. It's easy to test godless liberals, you know, and It's it's easier and faster and simpler to throw out King James only arguments without thinking about the history of the text and the history of the King James and the history of the Greek manuscripts and You know for a lot of folks once you start talking about all that stuff.

It's like I Don't know That sounds pretty complicated and I don't know that it would necessarily be complicated. I'd like it nice and simple and there's a mindset of people That function in that way and they are impressed by that kind of thinking impressed by that kind of Reasoning and So it's similar I think in that it's a whole lot easier to preach jihad.

It's a lot easier to tap into frustrated angry young Muslim men Who for some reason aren't taught to better themselves and you know contribute to their their Society and so on so forth. They're just it's easy to inculcate Victim mentality amongst people who don't have much.

It's real easy. It takes a lot more work to go well. You need to understand what happened in the early centuries and you know You know Bite to it and so anyway We will be taking phone calls by the way eight seven seven seven five three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three Four one or dividing that line by Skype.

Let me finish this off and the Most High said and why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and on behalf of those? Oppressed men women and children who cry out Lord rescue us from this town and its oppressors.

Give us from your presence some protecting friend. Give us from your presence some defenders surah 475. By Allah's leave we call upon every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with the laws order to kill the Americans and Wherever and whenever they find them.

We also call a Muslim ulema leaders youths and soldiers to launch the raid on the devil's army the Americans and Whoever allies with them from the supporters of Satan and to route those behind them. So they may learn a lesson.

Allah Most High said oh you who have believed respond to Allah and the messenger whenever he calls to you To that which gives you life and know that Allah Comes between a man and his heart and that is he to whom you shall be gathered surah 8 24.

Allah Most High said oh you who have believed what is the matter with you when you are asked to go forth in the cause Of Allah you cling so heavily to the earth. Do you prefer the life of this world the hereafter?

But little is the comfort of this life in comparison to the hereafter unless you go forth and fight. He will punish you with a grievous torment and put others in your place. But he cannot harm in the least but he you cannot harm in the least for Allah has power over all things surah 9 38 339.

Allah Most High said so do not lose heart nor fail it fall into despair have faith and you shall triumph surah 3 139 signed by Sheikh Osama bin Muhammad bin Laden as well as Ayman al-Zawahiri commander of the jihad group in Egypt, he's still around and and others so there was the 1998.

Was that 1998. I'm looking at the date here. The world Islamic Fronts declaration to wage Jihad against Jews was issued February 29th in the Arabic newspaper, okay. Then after that there I'm not gonna go into that I was gonna read this but I spent more time on that than I had to but it's an interesting book and you would find interesting the article moderate Islam is a prostration to the West and Because it really lays out the the most conservative understanding of why this form of Islam finds Anything less than itself to be Non-islamic and that's the type of argumentation of you.

So it's called the al-qaeda reader. I'm a little so no, I'm not. I'm not surprised. I'm Disappointed that I have not heard more of these citations in the discussion that has taken place since Osama bin Laden's death.

But look the vast majority of folks just view him as public enemy number one why he did what he did and Why he has convinced other people to join with him why he has convinced people to give their own lives To do what they did.

You know, we think of 9-eleven and there were 19 people who did what they did knowing they were going to die in the process. If we don't come to understand what motivates that. Then we will never be able to fight it.

And how do you fight it? Well there there is a military aspect. I mean we we protect our borders. We protect our wives our children. We protect ourselves against evil men. But what's the greatest weapon in?

This kind of warfare it's a demonstration that all those verses they're quoting are wrong simply wrong and We're not allowed to say that. That's the one thing the West says you can't do the West says you can't say those verses are wrong.

You have to honor those verses even to the point of giving Osama bin Laden an Islamic funeral at sea. Because we don't want to offend anybody. Well, it's too late. This is this is you have to deal with the the rotten foundation.

The rotten foundation is believing that Muhammad was a prophet, but the one thing the West cannot tell you you can't believe. The one thing the West says you cannot do is say Muhammad was not a prophet.

Now they can Blaspheme Christ all they want evidently, but the one thing you cannot do is say Muhammad was a false prophet. Saying so would in their minds drag a political Motivation into a quote-unquote religious war which they don't seem to understand.

They are terrified to admit from the Muslim perspective. There is no distinction between a political and religious situation. That's the whole point. There is no distinction none and and as long as we continue be Pretending to be secularists in this sense.

We will never understand these people and we will never Be able to deal with it. I mean look at look at the utter collapse of the Scandinavian countries northern European countries. Along these lines putting people on trial for saying Muhammad is a false prophet.

Why not put all the Muslims on trial for saying that the Bible's? Giving false prophecy because after the Quran says the Quran says the Bible the Quran says Jesus wasn't crucified. The Bible says it was therefore the Quran saying the Bible's wrong, right?

Oh You're not they can say all they want the backwardness of it is just absurd refusing to recognize that. That Osama bin Laden was the product of a way of thought that goes back to say you could tube and the the Islamic Brotherhood and It goes back to Ibn Tamim and it's a certain kind of Islam.

It is a kind of Islam. That's all there is to it. Just reality get used to it or don't get used to it because maybe you won't even have a chance to say much more about eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Let's take our phone calls and I've got a couple things queued up need to get back to that Bible thumpers stuff I need to get some of that done before the end of the program today, but we'll see. Let's start by talking with Gary in Virginia.

Hi Gary. How are you? Yes, sir.

Your debate with mm-hmm.

Mount a mountain passable or something. Yes, right. Exactly Like.

Well, that's that's a that's a big subject.

That there is nothing before the fourth century and that's when it starts to Show itself and then becomes predominant because the area in which it is found Specifically around Byzantium becomes the only area that is producing Greek manuscripts, especially after the Islamic expansion where North Africa has taken over and Latin becomes the language of the of the West, so.

As far as a specific pre -4th century testimony to Not a Byzantine reading but to the Byzantine text type. There's a difference between a text type and a reading there are times you can find a reading Maybe even uniquely Byzantine, but if it's but if in the next line, it has a uniquely non Byzantine reading Then you're not looking at a Byzantine text type.

That's something that people are sometimes confused about because they'll say oh well, but there's this one reading over here and and Etc, etc. You know, it's really bad when you have a super annoying ringtone and then it goes out over the air like that.

I mean it.

Go next. I'm trying to study.

Yeah, well the problem is There are lots and lots of books. They tend to be very expensive. Frequently they are collections of scholarly articles. For example, I have the both both Brill compilations of all of Ehrman's works and J Eldon Epps works.

And I don't know I think they're like a hundred and sixty nine dollars a pop or something like that. They're just ridiculous. I mean, obviously you can get them from a library, hopefully. But the problem today is That while there there are still some folks out there doing what they need to be doing.

There has been a real shift in New Testament textual criticism the money and the chairs of New Testament studies that are relevant to these things have been hijacked by The current generation of New Testament textual critics who have pretty much given up on looking for the original text and what they're doing now is Exegeting the variations and playing mind games in my opinion in trying to discern What we can learn via the textual variations about what the early scribes believed about this that or the other thing and While there may be some Interest in a few things like that.

It's it's not actually historically anyway is the purpose of textual criticism to exegete a Textual variance and the scribes who produced them and Bart Ehrman is one of the primary Forces and leaders in this along with some people over in Europe as well.

So the problem is that a lot of the stuff that's being produced today Isn't all that worthwhile, I mean you You can you can call some Information from it, especially as new papyri or are discovered and and collated and things like that.

You can you can get information like that. But the primary focus is is not so much upon the original text anymore as upon these other issues. And that's that's a bit of a problem. So.

Now I've looked mentioned by the island. Yes, and the other. The other one is I think the decisions that were made in the UBS for oh the textual commentary.

Yeah, I mean if you're looking for information like that, then the main things you want to get would be the textual commentary by Metzger Philip Comfort's massive volume Which we have in our store Textual commentary on the New Testament, that's a that's a real goldmine The diaglot that we have which includes the any t-textual notes and the appendices Together with the na -27 text and The rest of Philip Philip Comfort stuff encountering the papyri encounter.

I think it's encountering the manuscripts now. I think about it. All of those will give you a lot more information to you. Okay, cool. All right. I Think is I think it's funny the the ringtone some people some people have it gets your attention.

All right, thanks Gary. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is a phone number. Let's talk to Jeff in Philadelphia. Hi Jeff. Yes, sir.

Just a little bit, but I'm uh-huh about a month ago and yes requested. Yes, right. Well, that's good, I know you've and then I have and I oh, oh good excellent and He basically oh, really? Yeah. You're backed up, but you'll you'll thought of emergent types.

Apologetic is the emergent reform perspect challenge some of though.

That's true, I mean I I still do not consider myself an expert on the emergent movement, but Having seen the issues that Rob Bell was is raising and then having been thrown headlong into a dialogue with Brian McLaren and hence having to finally read his material and Listen to his material and discover just how very similar it is to what Rob Bell said and love wins except much better Written I mean McLaren is an English major and it was actually nice to read a book that was written in complete sentences and paragraphs and things like that, but Having had to do all of that Again it just emphasizes the My recognition that the Lord put me through the education he put me through.

I didn't enjoy Having to deal with all the challenges that were involved in going to Fuller seminary, but Now it has given me the vocabulary to Hear what these folks are saying because it's it's just all it is.

It's just Protestant liberalism And when I when I have jokingly said it's Protestant liberalism and skinny jeans with Britney Spears microphones done by Twitter What I'm saying is it's it's it's the the Protestant liberals weren't big on attracting the culture by being cool and hip but that's what the emergent folks are doing, but this the the underlying substance is It's still the same thing take a Protestant liberal and stick him in skinny jeans with a Britney Spears microphone and let him Communicate by Twitter and you've got an emergent guy and that's just this way it is.

One thing I I commented on to a few of our wiping out the Canaanites and that sort of thing and It got mentioned to them that you know you're constantly saying God is mysterious God is bigger than we can imagine executing judgment.

Then he's not very mysterious, then you know. Ain't that big ain't that big. He's he's big he's bigger than that I guess or something. Yeah, no it's.

Perfectly fits your conception. Yep. You know. You're giving think in terms of like maybe sort of leftist. Well. You can't you can't avoid it reading Brian McLaren.

He's he's open about it. He's.

They want to think in terms of strange by you right. That can't be so yeah.

We can't we can't avoid the dialogue. I'm as a movement. I think it'll fracture all over itself. I don't know what kind of Long-term impacts gonna have but I was I was interested to note that on Wednesday night of last week.

My fellow elder read an email from someone who had been over I believe in Africa teaching over there and that the brethren in a reformed Baptist context in Africa. We're asking about Rob Bell and love wins, so.

The Internet the internet has changed the world. I mean again if there's a guy sitting in that town In Pakistan where Osama bin Laden had been living for five or six years. And he's twittering the attack on the compound that has changed the world that I mean it is instantaneous Communication and that that's can be a good thing that means that good words from from John Piper R .C. Sproul or John MacArthur Mark Devere whoever those good words Go out quickly Around the world, but so does everything that Richard Dawkins says or Rob Bell says or whatever else so.

What we we need to start doing is cultivating an ability to. You know we talked about discernment. And we we've certainly seen that the large majority of discernment ministries have no discernment and how they have participated in the Ergen-Kanner cover-up, but that was always a a Discernment of one type of teaching versus another type of teaching now what we need to develop is Discernment within the cloud.

Cloud discernment the clouds become a term that is used now. I mean I have an Amazon cloud drive now. Which basically just means that it's stored on the web for you someplace rather than on a hard drive.

You're carrying around with you and We are in a data cloud. We have stuff coming at us from every which direction and the next generation even our own generation has to learn to have discernment in. How much data you let through and where it comes from and how you interpret it?

I'd be a main driver. I think. Oh yeah very much so yeah very much so. Hey Jeff. Thanks for your call all right. God bless. Bye-bye.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One. Let's talk with Jonathan. Hi Jonathan.

Good. Well if you don't mind I'd like to make you come out Rob Bell real quick and ask my question. I actually got to watch his discussion or debate on unbelievable. And I must say I also got to listen to something you had talked about with I Believe it might have been a woman some years ago where you guys were arguing about whether or not the hell Eternal hell is a dust and kind thing and you pointed out that the unregenerate sinner even after living is Still not going to make a decision for Christ unless God gives him that grace.

And that's something I wish so badly would have been said to Rob Bell because he kept saying if a 17 year old.

In 17 million years in hell yeah, that was that was the one thing that and again, I I can say I've been an Adrian Warnock shoes because Well actually I didn't see it in the seat that he sat in but I I always sit in the seat that Rob Bell was in.

In the studio, but be that as it may. It was a little weird to watch that. I I wish there had been time. You know me sometimes you can't tell sometimes Justin is giving you the cut sign. He's going to a break or whatever and when you come back Justin asks you a different question.

You gotta go a different direction. I don't know, but I do wish that the one thing that had been said was his 17 year old for eternity thing. Assumes something that is simply non assumable and unfortunately listening to the listening to the comments.

Listening to other people who talked about it people just don't think that way they figure well once you're dead, that's it. There's there's no more your hearts been changed all of a sudden. You've become a saint and that is something that we need to challenge.

Very strongly and point out to people is not the case.

Well, I was thankful for the talk that you gave before that because it really it eternal punishment really only makes sense in the reform personally. Be Depraved without God changing their hearts.

I just mentioned to folks because you may not folks may not know what to talk about. What I'm. What you're referring to there, I assume is the unbelievable program I did with Mr. Foster and his wife Back in I think it was like August of oh nine or something like that.

We actually did two programs we had one on Calvinism and one on eternal punishment and I did it by ISDN line from KPXQ here in Phoenix and Those are still available in the unbelievable archives and I had linked to them Beforehand so that people could you know, listen to that.