TIL- Critique in Love

Cling to the cross then put both arms around it. Hold to the crucified and never let him go. I'm a fresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever. Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross.

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us. The comment line is open. Again, we thank you for being with us tonight. Our regularly scheduled program is Not regular tonight as you can see we are gonna pick back up hopefully next Monday night with Dan and called with chapter 9 in Reform covenant theology by Harrison Perkins.

Dan and I both shared a birthday this past weekend and I had a good birthday. I think Dan had a good birthday. His wife has taken him out. So He is taking a break. Claude is sick. So remember caught in prayer and the the fill-in for tonight is big John.

So I've got big John with me. How you doing, brother? I'm doing well. I hope you are. I'm doing good. Thanks as it's muted. Yes, you should. You're muted, but I'm I'm not muted so they both can hear. Yeah, awesome.

Good deal. Glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Sorry, we're just throwing the whole flow off right off the bat. Well, it's been a.

Throw-off.

Kind of weekend, which is okay. It's all right. It's okay big. John and I spent the morning Saturday morning Walking through our local town handing out flyers. Introducing people to the conference hoping we can get some sponsors for the conference.

You saw an ad for the conference just a few minutes ago. I'll go to labors conference calm. You can go to the giving page if you'd like to be a sponsor or if you're an individual just like to give. We're looking for people just to help us Cover the cost for travel and Lodging for our speakers there.

There's no charge for the conference. It's free registration free to come to the conference. So we would love to have you there. So go to the registration page and go ahead and sign up. It's open. Already and you can sign up for labors conference.

It's gonna be next April the last weekend in April 2025 and it's gonna be a vertical live church in Newton. So we would love to see you there we also have a first time setup and It's going to be weird.

I want to look at the camera, but also want to look at you hopefully the view on what they're seeing is Two different views two different angles, but I'm I'm already coming into your view. So it's gonna be unique.

This is something else.

You know, I sit my kitchen table with a laptop, right? And I used to sit there with this. This way this way more than me.

Well.

I'm just I'm thankful that you can be here tonight. I'm thankful to be here. They're having a movie night. I left there was gosh was there seven eight girls there. Yeah, I mean.

Well.

Hopefully hopefully this will be good a good conversation and it'll be encouragement to everybody. Like I said, the comment line is open if you're watching it now watch it later. Leave us a comment. Let us know that you're watching.

Yeah, make sure that the audio and the video is synced together, right? There's something that don't look right when you straighten it out while we're here and then you'll know. Yeah, that's right. This is live.

And so hopefully we'll have some folks come on soon and they can we'll ask them when they come on to let us know because this is the first time and Hope that it works out. Well So what we want to do tonight John put out a video this weekend and Let me say this let me preface our conversation like this John I was reading a publication this morning.

It was a Baptist publication. I was reading it this morning and There was an article in there and it was about It listed probably about eight in questions Reflective questions. Yeah, and There were two things that come to my mind one thing was a Similar thing that comes to my mind often in in my circles.

We we had rehashed the same problems the same questions over and over again. I think he asked multiple in multiple questions multiple reflective questions he asked the same type question in a different way and the gist of it was How much are you how much are you hanging out in your own? world in your own circles around people that are just like you and how as opposed to how much you're reaching out to the law good questions but it seems like we we rehash those questions year after year after year and Everybody has a new plan a new idea a new program.

Thank you guys for watching. Hey, let us know We're trying something different. Let us know if the audio and video is syncing as living. Okay, I've got big John in My studio tonight myself. And so I'm glad to have them here and we're trying something new and but what about this bad the Baptist publication, that's one thing that I thought about is I Want to do something different?

I don't want to be in this cycle Spinning my wheels year after year. We'll do something different. That's another thing that I thought about and this leads to you being here in my house in my studio. Um Those questions we're asking you to reflect on like I said How much time you spending in your own circles in your own world with your own people as opposed to reaching the loss?

But I wanted to ask the question How much time are you spending outside of your? Denominational tradition and that leads to you being here in my house. We do we do but overall do you really see that no not really I would say that in some cases.

Well, I mean I've been warned by people who honestly legit Care about me that I should be careful as to who I'm associated with stuff like that right, and I get it right I do get it if you you care about somebody and you have Preconceived ideas and notions about somebody else and you think that person is dangerous.

You would warn You would warn them to if you cared about him. Yeah, right. So there's that the the other thing is.

Some people in.

Our I.

Believe don't have a lot of convictions in their own worldview and they need to be back. They need to be continually supported and Know what they believe and and to that. Yeah, a little bit of gumption.

Yeah, you know, I mean if you go if you're gonna have a world view have a world view right, right? You're post millennium. I disagree with you on that right, right, but you are what you are and you made no apologies for it, right and I respect that right and I can work with somebody if that's what they are.

Yeah, even if I disagree with right because You're not you're not trying to coerce me Into looking at it always from your views. Here's here's way I see and this is how it affects how I read this. It's how it affects how I see this and that's fine.

You're a cessationist. Yeah, right, so There's gonna be a handful of things that Unless God intervenes, we're just not gonna agree on And that's every single thing in this world is like that who really has a hundred percent agreement with anybody, right.

And I want to have the attitude I can be corrected. Yeah. Well, we ain't got all figured out. That's right I always was very right to be wrong. That's right.

And.

If I'm wrong about something I want to have the gumption to say, okay I see what you're saying and I'm wrong and need to repent of that and yeah and have correct thinking. Yeah, if I can't say There's something I can still learn.

Sure, then there's something wrong with my heart What's the Bible supposed to do when it comes to the believer through correct and manner of righteousness, right? So if you're not going to be correctable or teachable, then you know, that's right.

That's right no matter I mean you you brought up the things that I believe in you know, the cessationism the post-colonialism and I wouldn't hold those things unless You know persuaded and I believe them and I held them, you know strongly.

But you still can't Have an attitude that You're superior or right? You can't communicate with somebody else and I feel like I would have you you brought up Some of the tension that you've got because of some associating with us sometimes um, and I feel like You know, we got same thing if yeah, if I pursued I probably haven't received as much backlash as you have but I feel like Reading that publication.

It was a Baptist publication and I feel like if if I was to pursue This ministry and and what we're trying to do and the association that we have with one another if I tried to pursue that In the higher levels of the Baptist Convention the Baptist world So like have a have a booth at the convention I'm I don't know.

I can't say 100 But I think there's a chance that they would say well, you're not you're not Your ministry is not fully You know, it's not NC Baptist. Yeah, you're not Baptist enough. I feel like we would get that pushback.

Um,. But that's okay because like I said, I don't want to continue my whole life spinning my wheels Rehashing the same problem we have every every year every generation I want to to be biblical and and the Bible calls us to the unity among Believers not just unity among our own the denominational tradition.

Yeah, I think yeah, yeah, we're gonna look at it Realistically, we're gonna look at it say what the church is supposed to be one body. Mm-hmm and scripture repeatedly So that's that's Jesus's last prayer.

We read about Yeah, right. So if That's the mission of the church and you say well, I can't work that's I'm a denomination Then in a sense you're saying your denomination is the only church. Yeah. Whether you realize that's what you're saying or not, right and Should you go to heaven?

It's gonna be really surprising to you That you're here if there's more than your church thing right you know, what are they doing? Yeah. Trouble.

Brad.

Pastor John.

How are you?

The show just got interesting and mobile and mobile. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm Tom. No, see I know. How are you guys?

I saw y 'all were on and and I missed the message. So I thought well, I've got a little bit of time here. I thought I'd jump in with you a little bit and see how things are.

Well, the the truth and love podcast just went everywhere today and We're we're trying something new. I've got big John at my house. Nice, yep, it is nice and we've been talking about how a Pentecostal is in a Baptist house and we're getting along.

Yeah.

It can happen that's for sure. Jonathan said he's kind of like a Pentecostal my baddest everywhere he goes. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm I'm the bad Bacostal. So I just yeah, I try to take Paul's approach.

Become all things to all people.

So, uh, I think the the flyer that was put out had a lot to do with the response video of me. Right. Mm-hmm. That's right. And and you can give me some flack about something I did wrong. No. We can arm wrestle about it.

I'm very tempted to do that. Maybe not all this show. Maybe with no cameras recording either.

But.

This that was kind of aim. Dan's gonna come back after his little vacation. We're gonna jump back into the book review that we're doing. So I asked John to come on because he did a response. Critique video of Virgil Walker from g3.

Virgil was speaking on. I thought about you pastor John. He he was. Talking specifically in that video about. What did he call it. A nationist. With loose view of cessation. What do you call yourself.

A cessationist with a seat caution cautious cessationist? There's a he's a continuation continuation.

Yeah, that right John. Oh me. I call myself a cautious continuous continuationist. Yeah.

What whatever word he used it's very similar to what pastor John would describe himself and and he was me he was pointing out the dangers of that. What you hold the Virgil Walker, yeah, Virgil Walker and and John was responding to that but also he was responding to I think His views on cessationism and his and Virgil's critique of Continuation.

Yeah, so. And I kind of messed up a little bit. I don't do criticism videos. I don't do Discernment videos or none of those things. Typically the reason I made it was partly because of some of the some of the friction that I've seen guys like Robert and Claude have put up with.

Being what I would consider Loose like I've considered them loosely cessationist and in that I don't think and obviously you don't think that they would deny that God still is God and that and That some of the things that we see in the in the book of Acts God can still do at the same time.

He would consider himself a sensationist in the fact that he doesn't believe in authority stuff like that the way that I'm probably a little bit stronger of a cessationist than what what you described.

Okay, but I still think some of our definitions need to be worked out. I what I did want to say on the forefront specifically about your video was that I think you did a really good job. And I agreed a lot with especially the beginning so let's kind of start at the beginning.

One of the things that you you said was.

You.

You looked at Virgil's approach and his approach was instead of starting with scripture he was quoting Church fathers, yeah. Specifically John Calvin. He mentioned Jonathan Edwards, and I think he mentioned somebody else but It took him a while to bring up scripture and I appreciate that critique because yeah I think and I think in his heart he would land there, too.

I'm not sure why this was his approach. But I think that was a good critique. If we're going to try to understand and believe old to a doctrine It must come first from scripture. And I think you did a good critique on that.

The the thing that that he did I think starting out and what first really kind of got him a crawl was There's been a lot of so Jonathan you can satisfy yourself as a as a Calvinist. Am I right?

All right.

And and in the fact that you're a Cautious continuationist he says that you're dangerous that men who hold this worldview are they're questioning everything from the authoritative nature of scripture all the way up to Complementarianism and things like that include in gender roles inside the church because you clearly don't have a good understanding of.

Scripture and.

As far as I can tell He used zero scripture. Taking in context that would support Cessationist view I would go as far as to say that he could have used I Would have used different scripture. To line up that point I don't know if someone prepared this for him and he was reading this from a monitor as if it was somebody else's talking.

But taking like Ephesians 2 and then reading verse 20 out of it doesn't give you enough information to make any kind of claim whatsoever. And I think that was just I was just probably done and I made a mistake.

Right off the bat and said Hebrews 4 instead of Ephesians. Didn't realize that till I was listening back to it. My kid was listening to it and I was like That's not a fiesta Hebrews. What's Ephesians 4 that's speaking truth and love.

Sounded familiar it did, right? So the point I was trying to make was His his entire philosophy is stemmed off of God giving Supernatural gifts to a few people during a period of time to lay the foundation of the church and I think that That's just not just wholly wrong.

But I think that that's a poor understanding of what the foundation of the church is. Also think it's foolish to assume That we began this thing in the Spirit and with the power of the Spirit and it stopped and now we can finish it on.

Our own.

Which is what he would lead you to believe. It took it took the Holy Spirit Supernaturally moving on man for a period of time to lay the foundation and once the foundations lay we no longer need this same thing.

So to me that seems like it flies in the face of Galatians where Paul says you foolish Galatians Who's bewitched you this thing you started in the Spirit you continue in the flesh and I know that that skips verses there.

I don't have it in front of me so that was kind of where I was. I was I was just I was so like a dog on a bone with that and I really couldn't. I Had lost track during the video that the really what I was trying to get at was that.

Holding to this view that he has Is makes him more like KJV only IFB man. And it makes him a believer in scripture first. Which is akin to cultism if I can be honest with you.

Yeah.

I think he I think he did blur the line because he he began and should have stuck with his critique on the cautious Continuationist or the cessationist with the seatbelt. That's how he started. But then he ended up talking about the new apostolic Reformation and he threw in some other word-based folks and that's where he starts to blur the line and I would have leaned.

I lean more towards his critique there when he was talking about those folks and the Emotionalism that they seek after and and those kind of. And and I think I think you kind of agreed with that to a point.

Those kind of manipulative tactics and Sometimes do lead to the complimentary doing with the complimentary and more egalitarian view on church leadership. Just in as an example and maybe other changes in doctrine and church quality.

Just because they're more emotional led not the not the continuationist Or cessationist with the seatbelt, which is who we originally was talking about. Yeah, but those so what he did was he lumped. He lumped everybody that wasn't a hard stout staunch cessationist.

He lumped everybody else in the same camp. Now what happens when you do that? Is that for starters? You're not being genuine with With the critique, right? So and I don't want to say his name, but there's there's people that we know personally who lumped every continuationist or every cessationist and every Calvinist together as if they're the same thing, right?

And that's just not that's just not so that's you know, and.

That's the reason and just for a minute and was because of. The cautious continualist or continualist with the seatbelt, you know, I mean those kind of go hand-in-hand or cessationist. That's a cautious cessationist or leaky cessationist or cessationist with the seatbelt.

I think I think I think it's really important to know. I think a lot of guys that identify in those camps. It that is a response. I don't have a problem being called a continualist. I'm not offended by that.

I.

Say I'm cautious. It is a response to hyper charismania, you know and and I think the leaky cessationist or the cautious cessationist or those kind of things that's a response to. That term has to be there because of the the hyper cessation.

It's just like hyper Calvinism or those hyper positions, you know. We've said this before. I don't I don't. Somebody that has a biblical view a real biblical view of cessationism. But yet believes that the sovereignty and the power of God to do as he wills Is very is I mean not a breadth difference than the guy who believes in Continuationism and the power of God to do as he wills.

I mean, there's like this like this very very close I think the the question becomes what's normative in a Sunday morning worship service, you know I think that's that's where our What or what's possibly normative and even then when we get down to praxis or the proxy? our Sunday morning worship services for those that are continuous in that much or Cessationist in that mindset our Sunday morning worship service would not look different.

We would believe that the power of God can do as he wills even among believers. And so so I think what we're cautious is I don't think it's normative for on a Sunday morning worship service where a body of believers are gathered together that you're going to have a massive healing service and 50 people are going to stand up and give messages in tongues or people speak in other languages or or You know, there's always some kind of apostolic miraculous breaking through Gospel movement because it is it is a gathering of the believers to celebrate what they've already been given in Christ in the gospel.

So it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit's not there. The Holy Spirit's obviously there the power of the Holy Ghost is there but the power of the Holy Ghost is there to empower the Saints to glorify Christ in that moment and.

So, so, you know when it gets down to those things that's that's where it's really a shame. Because I do believe the reality is when he's he's lumping in those people that are in those two categories as dangerous I believe those two categories really represent the majority of Orthodox conservative and Protestant Christians.

Somewhere as far as to say that they fall outside of the realm of Orthodox Christianity at all that's right, and he goes as far as to say that anyone outside of the hyper-cessationist camp is not only not only lost but is leading others astray and.

That's where I say that someone who's someone whose worldview is that pigeonhole is akin to a cook. Can you define what you mean by hyper-cessationist? So his view of hyper-cessationism as best as I can tell just by this video, right?

I don't know Virgil Walker. I don't know what he teaches six other days out of the week, but in this particular video he claims that.

All.

Gifts that God used man to do Stopped with the Apostles age and anything that suppose anything that is claimed to have been done through man by God is a lie and Or is an abuse. If you watch the video brother John I watch video I watch clips of them don't watch the whole thing.

So it's a it's a 14 minute and some odd second video and in that video He really Chose that I believe what happened is that he was part of a charismatic church at one time and he got he got clipped.

And he is.

So there's no means getting back, you know, he got he got hurt in a charismatic church of sorry Okay, and ran To the exact opposite end of the spectrum out of fear of that happening. Totally valid. Yeah, I believe that's a totally valid response.

For instance, if you get burned you never stick your hand in something hot again, right? Right, so my. Now I get angry with about that, but not angry at him. I get angry about the person who abused him, right, right.

And I understand The desire once having come out of that to try to warn Everybody and maybe the easiest way for his own conscience is to say hey if it looks at all like it if it sounds at All like it is like stay away from it, but that's you don't do that with anything else, right?

I didn't want to commend you on your approach to that and I'll get back to that in a second. But I wanted to touch back on the definition of hypersensational. So I wouldn't label him a hypersensationalist for those reasons because I lean Of course being a cessationist.

I lean more towards that view if I were to label him a hypersensationalist It would be because he wouldn't hang out with somebody like Pastor John.

Let's try to define it's just a little bit so. In cessationism, I find two general camps. What I would consider hype more hyper leaning cessationist. They would say that God no longer anywhere in the world at any time ever uses the signed gifts To make the gospel known even in unreached people groups.

They would go to that extreme that those have fully and completely ceased.

And.

And they would be. Do I? And so so that's leaning to that side so that is that's what I would call a high cessationist. A hypersensationalist would believe that all gifts including the gifts of preaching teaching.

The offices of the church and maybe even the gift of pastoring as an office have even ceased. So I don't think he would say that. I think he is in the camp of signed gifts. Have ceased and never will be done again anywhere in the world at any time no matter what the circumstances.

So there's sort of a High cessationist. And then you've got what we call a cautious cessationist that says it's not normative for signed gifts to exist. God still uses normative gifts in the body for the building of the Saints for the equipping of the Saints for the work of ministries.

Ephesians 4 says. Signed gifts are not normative. But are possible on the mission field and different places if God so sees fit, but it's not normative. Then we've got on the other side of that. You've got the same kind of three-tier deal.

You've got those that would say it's normative.

For.

Signed gifts to be done with apostolic work if you will. When I say apostolic I'm not talking about the twelve apostles. I'm talking about Groundbreaking sent ones where the where the Bible describes apostles as sent ones.

There's still those that have those kind of gifts where they're breaking into unreached people groups and God. It is normative for God to empower Those people with that calling with signed gifts of the Holy Ghost to affirm the preaching of the gospel.

That's normative. Then you go on You know on down the line to to the hyper side of charismania as we've already talked about. So so Robert if I'm not misunderstanding you I think you're more in that camp where it's possible, but not normal.

Right even on signed gifts. And it like third world countries things like that.

Very very close and I would make the distinction like Virgil does and I know this is this is something that you critique big John on your video and. And I understood where you understood where you're coming from and I appreciate the passage that you used and you caused me to think which is good but the person that he takes and as a cessationist is that they were.

We're using that term that you don't like signed gifts and and they were. And you talked about how some people view them as at will. Yes, so I've heard some say it right. So. As as signed gifts in in that capacity I believe those things have ceased but I don't it.

It's not out of the realm of Possibility for God to do as he pleases. Like God performs miracles today. Yeah, and that's undeniable.

I.

I'm still working out things in my mind and heart about about tongues about about prophecy. And that goes to the revelation. So that you talked about in your video, but as far as God doing what he wants to Pastor John, you know.

That's his prerogative. I don't see him doing what he did in The first century with the Apostles at that time in that church, but as far as what he wants to do today through the Holy Spirit.

I see a distinction sure and just with the language you use. It's not a critique. It's just just an honest statement of what I'm fixing to say we we're many are in this in the cessationist camp are. Are rooted in what they see and what they've experienced.

And the same thing on the continuous point of view we we in those circumstances. Have experienced miraculous gifting things and so so a lot of times people say I've never experienced it. So this is my normative.

So this is why I believe this way. Others have said I am experiencing authentic things and I'm not talking about the cuckoo. We're kind of putting those out there in the Whatever zone, you know what I mean?

But I'm talking gospel centered loving people preaching the gospel doing mission work that they are saying Hey, we on a regular normative basis. And this is why I believe what I believe what what landed.

Where I'm at personally and again, it's it's a famous passage in this in 1st Corinthians 12, but you know when you get when You were talking about a second at will and and at will would mean a person wills.

I don't see anywhere in Scripture where someone picked up a gift at their own will. 1st Corinthians 12 tells us very plainly that in verse 11 all these are empowered to the same Spirit who appoints to each one individually as he will.

And and so I think it is clear that that God has not willed for some to experience or know these gifts. Based on her at they have a different set of the normative gifts if you will I think I think potentially they all fall under the category as God wills and so they're all normative to God.

That may not be normative to us, but they're all normative to him. And on the flip side for somebody that is in a situation that needs. Well, we might consider from our perspective what we see as a miraculous gift and God gives it as he wills.

Still normative to God even though it's not normative to what we see and so that's I think that's a very important distinction because when I listen to Virgil's video too, that's He's he's quoting people that are quoting from what they're experiencing.

You know and and even Augustine, you know in his writings and different stuff. Like he or in his early writings was writing from a practically a cessationist point of view that as far as he can tell. The gifts are not continuing but then later in his ministry there's a town that there was miraculous healings broke out and those kind of things in that scenario and and he he labeled as a form of revival that there was a breakout of a movement of the Holy Spirit and he recants his cessationist view and begins to say it is obvious as The Lord wills the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active in the earth.

And so he's making that Differentiation that even his early writings was based on his observation not necessarily based on text in Scripture. And so so I think that's what we're dealing with a lot in this too.

It's it's and that's why I appreciate John's critique as well. Affirming what you just said a second ago Robert, you know it he's quoting church father. He's quoted quoting from Observation and potentially like John said he's quoting.

And he's read he's pushing back from a hurtful experience, you know. But we can't base.

Our our.

Foundations. We can say I'm making an observation, but we can't base the foundation of what we believe and why we believe what we believe. Solely on what we've experienced or haven't experienced, you know, we have to come back to script.

It's it's an it's.

Go ahead. John, I want to tag on to that and say something that's going to sound almost like a contradiction. If there was one thing That I would have to say The Apostles had the liberty of using that we don't have the same liberty at least in the same way of using.

It would be their experiences because as Having been our witnesses of the resurrection and walking with the Lord.

And when tested.

By the Sanhedrin their response was we can only testify of what we have seen and what we have heard, right. And obviously with the baptism of the Holy Spirit there came an understanding a deeper understanding of the Old Testament and where they started quoting the Old Testament whenever they were.

They were ministering. I'm sorry about that and uh so in that way, I would say that There's nothing. There's nothing wrong with personal experiences, but they can't come scripture.

Unless.

You were in a position of the Apostles in which your experiences are what were transcribed into script. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So that's why I says it almost sounds like a contradiction of terms.

Isn't it that way the Apostles were special in that? Yeah. That makes sense at all. Yeah. You don't have a button. If I meet you, I meet me. Yeah, I went for the longest time I had a right oh that comes.

And just weird times. Always the worst time Sunday morning mid-sermon. Oh, yeah, you know. Mm-hmm. I got it.

Well.

That that was another thing and Pastor John brought it up that I wanted to commend you on on your critique video and and I think that you stated this that it's still just speculation because he didn't come out and Make the connection.

He did bring up the fact that there was a little bit of hurt in his life from maybe some experience. He said about past experience past experience. Yeah, and and I think I think you admitted that it may be some speculation on our part to say that that experience is kind of the driving some driving force in is Where he stands to their speculation.

But what I wanted to commend you on was I think where you stand is where we try to stand as well where there are extremes on both sides where we can get carried away in our Emotions and let our emotions drive our doctrine and our emotions drive and it happens on both sides.

Sure. I.

Mean, all right, so.

Uh.

Brother Jonathan, you know as many people in church of God as I do. Right, well, maybe maybe not quite as many but you know a bunch of them, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But some especially some years before I joined the church of God.

My understanding was there was some radical views on holiness that was propagated out on folks. That was unrealistic in some areas and in some areas were personal convictions that people were pushing on other on other folks.

To the point where they drove folks away. They drove folks either out of church or into a different kind of church body where there was a whole different system of values a system of poor belief and. And in that I mean I went to school with some of them when I was in high school.