TIL- Critique in Love

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00:09

Cling to the cross then put both arms around it Hold to the crucified and never let him go

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I'm a fresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever

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Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross

00:40

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us. The comment line is open Again, we thank you for being with us tonight our regularly scheduled program is

00:53

Not regular tonight as you can see we are going to pick back up hopefully next Monday night with Dan and called with chapter 9 in Reform coming to theology by Harrison Perkins Dan and I both shared a birthday this past weekend and I Had a good birthday.

01:10

I think Dan had a good birthday. His wife has taken him out. So He is taking a break

01:16

Claude is sick. So remember caught in prayer and the the fill -in for tonight is big

01:22

John So I've got big John with me. How you doing, brother? I'm doing well. I hope you are. I'm doing good. Thanks as it's muted

01:31

Yes, you should You're muted, but I'm I'm not muted so they both can hear

01:39

Yeah, awesome. Good deal Thank you You Well, it's been a throw off Kind of weekend, which is okay.

01:53

It's all right. It's okay Big John and I spent the morning Saturday morning walking through our local town handing out flyers

02:01

Introducing people to the conference hoping we can get some sponsors for the conference You saw an ad for the conference just a few minutes ago.

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I'll go to labor's conference calm You can go to the giving page if you'd like to be a sponsor or if you're an individual just like to give

02:17

We're looking for people just to help us Cover the cost for travel and lodging for our speakers there.

02:25

There's no charge for the conference It's free registration free to come to the conference. So we would love to have you there

02:31

So go to the registration page and go ahead and sign up. It's open Already and you can sign up for labor's conference

02:39

It's gonna be next April the last weekend in April 2025 and it's gonna be a vertical live church in Newton So we would love to see you there we also have a first time setup and It's going to be weird.

02:54

I want to look at the camera, but also want to look at you hopefully the view on what they're seeing is

03:01

Two different views two different angles, but I'm I'm already coming into your view.

03:09

So it's gonna be unique This is something else You know, I sit in my kitchen table with a laptop, right?

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And it used to sit there with this It's way this way more than I'm used to well

03:27

I'm just I'm thankful that you can be here tonight. I'm thankful to be here I got a house full of teenage girls right now. They're having a movie night

03:33

I left there was Gosh, was there seven eight girls there? Yeah, I mean

03:42

Well hopefully Hopefully this will be good a good conversation and it'll be encouragement to everybody

03:50

Like I said, the comment line is open if you're watching it now watch it later. Leave us a comment Let us know that you're watching yeah, make sure that the audio and the video is synced together, right?

04:00

There's something that don't look right. Please straighten it out while we're here and then you'll know. Yeah, that's right This is live.

04:06

And so hopefully we'll have some folks come on soon and they can We'll ask them when they come on to let us know because this is the first time and hope that it works out well

04:19

Um, so what we want to do tonight. John Put out a video this weekend and Let me say this.

04:28

Let me preface our conversation like this john Um, I was reading a publication this morning.

04:34

It was a baptist publication I was reading it this morning and There was an article in there and it was about It listed probably about eight ten questions um reflective questions and There were two things that come to my mind.

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One thing was It's a similar thing that comes to my mind often in my circles

05:02

We we had rehashed the same problems the same questions over and over again

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I think he asked multiple in multiple questions multiple reflective questions he asked

05:16

The same type question in a different way and the gist of it was How much are you how much are you hanging out in your own world in your own circles around people that are just like you and how as opposed to how much you're reaching out to the law good questions um, but it seems like we we rehash those questions year after year after year and Everybody has a new plan a new idea a new program.

05:43

Thank you guys for watching Hey, let us know we're trying something different. Let us know if the audio and video is syncing is looking.

05:51

Okay Um, i've got big john In my studio tonight myself, and so i'm glad to have him here and we're trying something new

06:00

And but what about this baptist publication? That's one thing that I thought about is

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I want to do something different. I don't want to be in this cycle Spinning my wheels year after year.

06:13

We'll do something different That's another thing that I thought about and this leads to you being here in my house in my studio um

06:22

Those questions we're asking you to reflect on like I said How much time are you spending in your own circles in your own world with your own people as opposed to reaching the laws?

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But I wanted to ask the question How much time are you spending outside of your?

06:41

Denominational tradition and that leads to you being here in my house We spend a lot of time outside of our denominational traditions.

06:49

Everybody's We do we do we do yeah, but overall do you really see that?

06:56

No, not really. Uh, I would say that in some cases Well, I mean i've been warned by people who honestly legit

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Care about me that I should be careful As to who i'm associated with and stuff like that, right and I get it, right?

07:15

I I do get it if you you care about somebody and you have Preconceived ideas and notions about somebody else and you think that person is dangerous you would warn

07:25

You would warn them too if you cared about them. Yeah, right so there's that the uh the other thing is uh some people in our

07:39

I believe Don't have a lot of convictions in their own worldview and they need to be back.

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They need to be continually uh supported and Guys coaxed into what they believe and and to that I Yeah, I have a little bit of gumption

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Yeah, you know, I mean if you go if you're going to have a world view I have a world view, right? Right, you're post millennium

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I disagree with you on that right, right, but You are what you are

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And you made no apologies for it, right? And I respect that right and I can work with somebody if that's what they are.

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Yeah, even if I disagree with right because You're not you're not trying to coerce me

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Into looking at always from your views. Here's here's the way I see and this is how it affects how

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I read this This is how it affects how I see this and that's fine. You're a cessationist. Yeah, right?

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So Uh, there's gonna be a handful of things That unless god intervenes

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We're just not gonna agree on right And that's every single thing in this world

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Is like that who really has a hundred percent agreement with anybody, right? And and I want to have the attitude

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I can be corrected Yeah, well, we ain't got all figured out. That's right. I always preserved right to be wrong.

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That's right uh and If i'm wrong about something I want to have the gumption to say, okay

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I see what you're saying and i'm wrong and and need to repent of that and yeah and have correct thinking.

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Yeah if I can't say There's something I can still learn sure then there's something wrong with my heart

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What's the bible supposed to do when it comes to the believer approve correct and manner of righteousness, right?

09:27

So if you're not going to be correctable or teachable then you just will not open it. That's right. That's right No matter I mean You you brought up the things that I believe in the cessationism the post -colonialism and I wouldn't hold those things unless You know,

09:41

I was persuaded and I believed them and I held them, you know strongly. Um, but you still can't

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Have an attitude that Um, you're superior or right you can't communicate with somebody else, um, and and I feel like I would have

09:58

You you brought up some of the tension that you've got because of some associating with us sometimes, um, and I feel like You probably got the same thing if yeah if I pursued, um,

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I probably haven't Received as much backlash as you have but I feel like Reading that publication it was a baptist publication and I feel like if if I was to pursue

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This ministry and and what we're trying to do and the association that we have with one another if I tried to pursue that Um in the higher levels of say the baptist convention the baptist world

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Um, so like have a have a booth at the convention I'm I don't know.

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I can't say 100 But I think there's a chance that they would say well You're not you're not

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Your ministry is not fully You're not just nc bad. Yeah, you're not bad enough.

10:58

I I feel like we would get that pushback. Um, But that's okay because like I said,

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I don't want to continue my whole life spinning my wheels Rehashing the same problem we have every every year every generation um,

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I want to to be biblical and and the bible calls us to the unity among Believers not just unity among our own denominational tradition.

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Yeah, I think if if we're going to look at it Uh realistically we're going to look at it and say well the church is supposed to be one body

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And scripture repeatedly. So that's that's jesus's last prayer. We read about and examine it that we do.

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Yeah, right. So uh, if That's the mission of the church and you say well,

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I can't work outside my denomination Then in a sense you're saying your denomination is the only church. Yeah whether you realize that's what you're saying or not, right and Should you go to heaven?

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It's going to be really surprising to you You know what? That you're here if there's more than your church there, right?

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What are they doing here? Yeah So, uh, uh, oh Hmm trouble

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Pastor john How are you? The show just got interesting and mobile and mobile

12:21

Oh, yeah absolutely Long time no see. I know. How are you guys?

12:27

I saw y 'all were on and and I missed the message and so I thought well I've got a little bit of time here.

12:33

I thought I'd jump in with you a little bit and see how things are You mean well the the truth and love podcast

12:39

Just went everywhere today and we're We're trying something new.

12:44

I've got big john in my house Nice. Yep. It is nice and we've been talking about how

12:52

A pentecostal is in a baptist house and we're getting along. Yeah Oh, it can happen that's for sure

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That jonathan said he's kind of like a pentecostal my baddest everywhere he goes Well, that's what i'm saying i'm i'm the bad because so I just Yeah, I try to take paul's approach become all things to all people

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So, uh I think the the flyer that was put out had a lot to do with the uh the response video made

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Right. Mm -hmm. That's right. And uh, and you can give me some flack about something that I did wrong No We can arm wrestle about it.

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I i'm very tempted to do that Um, maybe not on this show. Okay, we're doing Maybe with no cameras recording either

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But um This that was kind of the aim dan's going to come back after his little vacation

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We're going to jump back into the book review that we're doing Um, so I asked john to come on because he did a response critique video of virgil walker from g3

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Uh virgil was speaking on I thought about you pastor john.

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Um He he was Talking specifically in that video about um

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What did he call it? cessationist with loose view of cessationism

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What do you call yourself a cessationist with a seat cautious cautious cessationist?

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He's a he's a continuationist continuationist Yeah, is that right john? Oh me

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I call myself a cautious continuous continuationist. Yeah What whatever word he used it's very similar to what pastor john would describe himself and and he was

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I mean, he was pointing out the dangers of That what you hold the virgil walker.

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Yeah, virgil walker And john was responding to that but also he was responding to I think um

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His views on cessationism and his and virgil's critique of continuationism.

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Yeah, so And I kind of messed up a little bit, um, I don't do Criticism videos.

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I don't do discernment videos or none of those things Typically the reason

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I made it was partly because of some of the some of the friction that i've seen guys like robert and claude have to put up with Being what

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I would consider Uh loose like i'd consider them loosely cessationist and in that I don't think and obviously

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I don't think that uh that they would deny that god still is god and that And that some of the things that uh, we see in the in the book of acts god can still do at the same time

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He would consider himself a cessationist in the fact that he doesn't believe in authority

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Authority and stuff like that The way that I understand you to believe am

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I correct in that i'm probably A little bit stronger of a cessationist than what what you described.

16:07

Okay, but I still think some of our definitions need to be worked out What I did want to say on the forefront specifically about your video was that I think you did a really good job um, and I agreed a lot with especially the beginning

16:24

Um, so let's kind of start at the beginning one of the things that you you said was um, you you

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You looked at virgil's approach And his approach was instead of starting with scripture

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He was quoting um Church fathers. Yeah, uh specifically john calvin.

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He mentioned jonathan edwards and I think he mentioned somebody else but Um, it took him a while to bring up scripture and I appreciate that critique because yeah,

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I think And I think in his heart he would land there, too I'm, not sure why this was his approach

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But I think that was a good critique if we're going to try to understand and believe hold to a doctrine

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It must come first from scripture And I think you did a good critique on that the the thing that that he did

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I think Starting out and what first really kind of got in my craw was

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There's been a lot of so jonathan. You can classify yourself as a as a calvinist.

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Am I right? And and the fact that you're a cautious continuationist he says that you're dangerous

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That men who hold this worldview are uh, they're questioning everything from the authoritative nature of scripture all the way up to uh complementarianism and things like that including gender roles inside the church because you clearly don't have a good understanding of scripture and As far as I can tell

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He used zero scripture Taking in context that would support

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Cessationist view I would go as far as to say that he could have used I would have used different scripture to line up That point

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I don't know if someone prepared this for him And he was reading this from a monitor as if it was somebody else's talking points but Taking like ephesians 2 and then reading verse 20 out of it doesn't give you enough information to make any kind of claim whatsoever

18:36

And I think that was just that was just poorly done and I made a mistake Right off the bat and said hebrews 4 instead of ephesians

18:44

Uh didn't realize that till I was listening back to it. My kid was listening to it and I was like Why that's not a that's not hebrews.

18:52

What's ephesians for that's speaking truth and love sounded familiar. It did right So the point

18:57

I was trying to make was uh his his entire philosophy is stemmed off of God giving supernatural gifts to a few people during a period of time to lay the foundation of the church and I think that that's just Not just wholly wrong, but I think that that's a poor understanding of what the foundation of the church is

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I also think it's foolish to assume That we began this thing in the spirit and with the power of the spirit and it stopped and now we can finish it on our own

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Which is what he would lead you to believe it took It took the holy spirit supernaturally moving on men for a period of time to lay the foundation and once the foundation is laid

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We no longer need this same thing so to me that seems Like it flies in the face of galatians where paul says you foolish galatians

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Who's bewitched you this thing you started in the spirit you continue in the flesh and I know that that I skipped some verses there

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Uh, I don't have it in front of me so that was kind of where I was I was

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I was just I was sort of like a dog on a bone with that and I really couldn't I had lost track during the video that The the really what

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I was trying to get at was that holding to this view that he has Is makes him more like a kjv only ifb man and it makes him a a believer in scripture first Which is akin to cultism if I can be honest with you

20:24

Yeah, I think he I think he did blur the line because he he began and should have stuck with his critique on the cautious Continuationist or the cessationist with the seat belt.

20:36

Um, that's how he started But then he ended up talking about the new apostolic reformation and he threw in some other word -based folks um

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And that's where he started to blur the line And I would have leaned I leaned more towards his critique there

20:53

When he was talking about those folks and the emotionalism that they seek after you know

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And and those kind of and and I think I think you kind of agreed with that to a point.

21:04

Um Um those kind of manipulative tactics and sometimes do lead to The complementary doing with the complementary and more egalitarian view on church leadership um, just as an example and maybe other um changes in doctrine and church quality, um, just because they're more emotional led not the

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Not the continuationist Or cessationist with the seat belt, which is who we originally was talking about.

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Yeah, but those So what he did was he lumped he lumped everybody that wasn't a hard uh stout staunch cessationist

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He lumped everybody else in the same camp. Now what happens when you do that is that for starters

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You're not being genuine with With the critique right so and I and I don't want to say his name but there's there's people that we know personally

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Who want every continuationist? Or every cessationist and every galvanist together as if they're the same thing, right?

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And that's just not that's just not so that's you know and uh And just for a minute and it was because of The cautious continualist or a continualist with the seat belt, you know,

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I mean those kind of go hand in hand or cessationist That's a cautious cessationist or leaky cessationist or cessationist with the seat belt

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I think I think I think it's really important to know I think a lot of guys that identify in those camps

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It it that is a response. I don't have a problem being called a continualist. I'm not offended by that um

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I say i'm cautious that is a response to hyper charismania you know and And I think the leaky cessationist or the cautious cessationist or those kind of things.

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That's a response to that term has to be there because of the The hyper cessationist just like hyper calvinism or those hyper positions, you know uh

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We've said this before. I don't I don't Somebody that has a biblical view A real biblical view of cessationism, but yet believes that the sovereignty and the power of god to do as he wills uh is very

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Is I mean not a breath difference than the guy who believes? In continuationism and the power of god to do as he wills.

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I mean there's like this like this very very close I think the the question becomes what's normative in a sunday morning worship service

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You know, I think that's that's where our Or what's possibly normative and even then when we get down to praxis or the praxi our sunday morning worship services for those that are continuous in that mind or Cessatious in that mindset our sunday morning worship service would not look different We would believe that the power of god could do as he wills even among believers

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And so so I think what we're cautious is I don't think it's normative For on a sunday morning worship service where a body of believers are gathered together that you're going to have a massive healing service and 50 people are going to stand up and give messages in tongues or people speak in other languages or Or you know, there's always some kind of apostolic miraculous breaking through Gospel movement because it is it is a gathering of the believers to celebrate

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What they've already been given in christ in the gospel. So it doesn't mean the holy spirit's not there The holy spirit's obviously there the power of the holy ghost is there

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But the power of the holy ghost is there to empower the saints to glorify christ in that moment and so so You know when it gets down to those things, that's that's where it's really a shame

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Because I do believe the reality is when he's he's lumping in Those people that are in those two categories is dangerous.

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I believe those two categories really represent the majority of orthodox conservative protestant christians

25:16

It was somewhere as far as to say that they fall outside of the realm of orthodox christianity at all

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That's right and he goes as far as to say that anyone outside of The hyper cessationist camp is not only

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Not only lost but is leading others astray And that's where I say that someone who's someone whose worldview is that pigeonhole

25:43

Is akin to a cook Can you define what you mean by hyper cessation?

25:48

So his view of hyper cessationism as best as I can tell just by this video, right?

25:54

I don't know virgil walker I don't know what he teaches Six other days out of the week, but in this particular video he claims that all

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Gifts that god used man to do Stop with the apostles age and anything that I suppose anything that is claimed to have been done through man by god is a lie

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And or is an abuse? It have you watched the video brother john

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I watch videos. I watch clips, but i've not watched the whole thing So it's a it's a 14 minute and some odd second video and in that video.

26:37

He really Shows that I believe what happened Is that he was a part of a charismatic church at one time and he got he got clipped and his his um, so there's no means getting back, you know, he got he got hurt in a charismatic church

26:54

Sorry And ran To the exact opposite end of the spectrum

27:01

Out of fear of that happening, right? Totally valid. Yeah, you know, I believe that's it's a totally valid Response for instance, if you get burned you never stick your hand in something hot again, right?

27:14

right, so my Now I get angry with about that but not angry at him.

27:19

I get angry about the person who abused him. Right, right And I understand

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The desire once having come out of that to try to warn Everybody and maybe the easiest way for his own conscience is to say hey

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If it looks at all like it if it sounds at all like it It is like it stay away from it.

27:40

But that's You don't do that with anything else, right? I did want to commend you on your approach to that and i'll get back to that in a second

27:48

But I wanted to to touch back on the definition of hyper cessationism. So I I wouldn't label him a hyper cessationist for those reasons because I lean

28:00

Of course being a cessationist. I lean more towards that view If I were to label him a hyper cessationist

28:07

It would be because He wouldn't hang out with somebody like pastor john Okay Let's try to define this just a little bit so in cessationism

28:20

I find two general camps What I would consider hype more hyper leaning cessationist

28:28

They would say that god no longer anywhere in the world at any time ever uses the signed gifts

28:38

To make the gospel known even in unreached people groups. They would go to that extreme that those have fully and completely ceased and and they would be

28:49

Do I? I'm, just going to agree with that. Oh and so So that's leaning to that side

28:56

So that is that's what I would call a high cessationist a hyper cessationist

29:02

Would believe that all gifts including the gifts of preaching teaching

29:08

The offices of the church and maybe even the gift of pastoring as an office Have even ceased

29:14

So I don't think he would say that I think he is in the camp of signed gifts

29:21

Have ceased and never will be done again anywhere in the world at any time no matter what the circumstances so there's sort of a

29:30

High cessationist and then you've got what we call a cautious cessationist That says it's not normative for signed gifts to exist.

29:38

God still uses normative gifts in the body for the building of the saints for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministries

29:45

Ephesians 4 says Signed gifts are not normative But are possible on the mission field and different places if God so sees fit, but it's not normative

29:56

Then we've got on the other side of that you you've got the same kind of three -tier deal you've got those that would say

30:03

It's normative uh for Signed gifts to be done With apostolic work if you will when

30:10

I say apostolic i'm not talking about the 12 apostles i'm talking about groundbreaking sent ones where the where the bible describes apostles as sent ones

30:18

There are still those that have those kind of gifts where they're breaking into unreached people groups

30:24

And God it is normative for God to empower Those people with that calling with signed gifts of the holy ghost to affirm the preaching of the gospel.

30:34

That's normative Then you go on You know on down the line to to the hyper side of charismania as we've already talked about so So Robert if i'm not misunderstanding you

30:46

I think you're more in that camp where it's possible, but not normal right even on signed gifts

30:53

Oh and it like third world countries things like that very very close and I would make the distinction like Virgil does and I and I know this is this is something that you critique.

31:06

Um big john on your video And and I understood where you understood where you're coming from and I appreciated the passage that you used

31:13

And you you caused me to think which is good. Um But the approach that he takes

31:19

As a cessationist is that they were we're using that term that you don't like signed gifts.

31:25

Um, and and they were And you talked about how some people view them as at will yes, so I've heard some say it right so As as signed gifts in in that capacity,

31:41

I believe those things have ceased but I don't it. It's not out of the realm of possibility for god to do as he pleases um, like god performs miracles today

31:56

Yeah And that's undeniable um I i'm still working out things in my mind and heart about about tongues about about prophecy

32:10

Um, and that goes to the revelation Uh subject that you talked about in your video, but as far as god doing what he wants to pastor john

32:19

You know, that's his prerogative um I don't see him doing what he did

32:25

In the first century with the apostles at that time in that church But as far as what he wants to do today is through the holy spirit

32:34

Um, I see a distinction sure and just with the language you use it's not a critique

32:39

It's just just an honest statement of what i'm fixing to say We we are many are in this in the cessationist camp are

32:50

Are rooted in what they see And what they've experienced and the same thing on the continuous point of view we we in those circumstances

33:02

Have experienced miraculous gifting things And so so a lot of times people say i've never experienced this so this is my normative

33:10

So this is why I believe this way others have said I am experiencing authentic things and i'm not talking about the cuckoo.

33:16

We're kind of putting those out there in the Whatever zone, you know what I mean? But i'm talking gospel centered loving people preaching the gospel doing mission work that they are saying

33:26

Hey, we on a regular normative basis, and this is why I believe what I believe What what landed?

33:33

um Where i'm at personally and again, it's it's a famous passage in this in first corinthians 12 but you know when you get when

33:42

You were talking about a second at will and and at will would mean person wills

33:48

I don't see anywhere in scripture where someone picked up a gift at their own will first corinthians 12 tells us very plainly that in verse 11

33:57

All these are empowered in the same spirit who appoints to each one individually as he will

34:04

And and so I think it is clear that that god has not willed for some to experience or know these gifts based on Or at they have a different set of the normative gifts if you will

34:17

I think I think potentially they all fall under the category as god wills and so they're all normative to god

34:23

They may not be normative to us, but they're all normative to him um And on the flip side for somebody that is in a situation that needs

34:34

Well We might consider from our perspective what we see as a miraculous gift and god gives it as he wills

34:41

It's still normative to god, even though it's not normative to what we see and so that's I think that's a very important distinction because when

34:49

I listen to virgil's video too, that's He's he's quoting people that are quoting from what they're experiencing

34:56

You know and and even augustine, you know in his writings and different stuff Like he or in his early writings was writing from a practically a cessationist point of view that as far as he can tell

35:08

The gifts are not continuing but then later in his ministry. There's a town that there was miraculous healings broke out and those kind of things in that scenario and and he

35:18

He labeled as a form of revival that there was a breakout of a movement of the holy spirit

35:24

And he recants his cessationist view and begins to say it is obvious as the lord wills

35:30

The miraculous gifts of the holy spirit are still active in the earth And so he's making that differentiation that even his early writings was based on his observation not necessarily based

35:41

On text and scripture and so so I think that's what we're dealing with a lot in this too

35:46

It's it's and that's why I appreciate john's critique as well Affirming what you just said a second ago robert, you know it he's quoting church father.

35:56

He's quoted quoting from Observation and potentially like john said he's quoting And he's he's pushing back from a hurtful experience, you know but we can't base our our foundations

36:13

We can say i'm making an observation But we can't base the foundation of what we believe and why we believe what we believe solely on What we've experienced or haven't experienced, you know, we have to come back to script and I would say

36:29

It's it's a it's a faith. Go ahead john. I want to tag on to that and say something that's going to sound almost like contradiction uh

36:38

If there was one thing That I would have to say The apostles had the liberty of using that we don't have the same liberty at least in the same way of using

36:50

It would be their experiences because as Having been eyewitnesses of the resurrection and walking with the lord

37:00

And when tested By the sanhedrin their response was we can only testify of what we have seen and what we have heard, right?

37:08

and obviously With the baptism of the holy spirit there came an understanding a deeper understanding of the old testament and where they started quoting the old testament whenever they were

37:21

They were ministering i'm sorry about that and uh, so in that way I would say that There's nothing

37:31

There's nothing wrong with personal experiences, but they can't trump scripture unless You were in the position of the apostles in which your experiences are what were transcribed into scripture

37:44

You see what i'm saying? Yeah So that's why I says it almost sounds like a contradiction of terms, isn't it?

37:50

That way the apostles were special in that. Yeah That makes sense at all.

37:56

Yeah, well, you don't want you don't have a talk button If I meet you

38:01

I meet me too That's okay I've uh, yeah, I've been for the longest time.

38:08

I got a very cold that all comes in just weird times Always the worst time sunday morning mid sermon.

38:15

Oh, yeah, you know You know, I got you Well that that was another thing and and pastor john brought it up that I wanted to commend you on on your critique video and and I think that you stated this that it's still just speculation because he didn't come out and Make the connection

38:34

Um, he did bring up the fact that there was a little bit of hurt in his life from maybe some experience He said about past experience past experience.

38:41

Yeah, and and I think I think you admitted that it may be some speculation. Um on our part to say that That experience is kind of the driving some driving force in is

38:57

Where he stands today speculation speculation but what I wanted to commend you on was I think

39:02

Where you stand is where we try to stand as well where there are

39:09

Extremes on both sides where we can get carried away in our emotions and let our emotions drive our doctrine

39:15

And our emotions drive and it happens on both sides. Sure. Sure I mean, all right.

39:20

So let's uh, so come on I can't right I cannot swing it on your side uh

39:28

Brother jonathan, you you know as many people in church of god as I do Right, or maybe maybe not quite as many but you know a bunch of them, right?

39:35

Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah Back some especially some years before I joined the church of god

39:42

My understanding was there was some radical views on holiness that were propagated out on folks

39:48

That was unrealistic in some areas And in some areas were personal convictions that people were pushing on other on other folks

39:55

To the point where they drove folks away They drove folks either out of church or into a different kind of church body where there was a whole different system of values a system of poor belief and uh

40:08

And in that I mean, I went to school with some of them when I was in high school as soon as they left mom and dad's house, they went to a totally different church group because They they wanted to get away from From what they were living under and in a lot of ways the leadership

40:25

Was abusing the authority that they seemed to have had over that church And they were pushing an agenda.

40:31

That's something that bothered them It was a personal nitpicky thing or a pet thief if you will and they decided to make their entire church like a visual representation of something that was their pet thief,

40:43

I've got a Church that I help up and i'm not gonna say where because if I do

40:49

They know what they want Uh Who whatever? the pastor's wearing

40:56

Within two weeks all the men of the church will wear that if If the pastor and I want there's some outlandish out there something that will never happen

41:03

But if the pastor showed up in a purple velvet hat every sunday morning Give it three weeks

41:10

Purple velvet hat to be flying off the shelf. You get what i'm saying? I guess and um And it wouldn't be that he's pushing that it's just that that's they tend to gravitate towards what their leader is doing and uh and you know if you have somebody who who has

41:27

That kind of pull with people but he stays in the book He stays in the word and his his pushes that you always run to the cross that you always run to the word

41:35

You always run to the scriptures and then you know you wind up Seeing very little of that man's personal opinion in anything right but if if mr.

41:47

Walker Was a part of a charismatic church where the leadership there would

41:54

Assume some kind of authority and say that god had given them this authority based on some kind of move of the holy spirit

42:01

And then began to do something that really just pleased their flesh. Not only are they lying And I believe guilty of blasphemy

42:09

But they're also hurting the church and I believe that they'll be they'll be judged

42:16

Of the strictest kind Come some last days and in fact, maybe the ones that jesus is talking to in matthew chapter 7

42:24

And he says depart from me for I never knew you uh So in virgil's case if that's what happened to him,

42:31

I totally sympathize with where he's at But we cannot let our personal experiences right be the sole driving factor of our theology, right?

42:40

And if your personal experiences is that because you met one who was was derailed

42:46

Make you think that everybody who believes similarly to him is derailed and you use personal experiences to your own demise, right?

42:54

Let me jump in here I'm not being rude to you by not looking at your eyeballs. I'm looking at you on the screen

42:59

Oh, I just I feel like if I look at your eyeballs and try to be man to man with you Jonathan's just gonna see my cheek.

43:05

Oh Should I be looking at the camera? So i'm looking at you in the screen. Um That's why i'm not looking at your eyeball eyeball

43:12

Um Yeah, I agree with you and um Let's see

43:20

There was there was let me let me offer three things and get both of your opinions on on these three things

43:27

I want to look at um, let me ask you this one first because it's not script

43:33

I want to look at the scriptures that you brought up but let me um, let me ask you this question first and see if there was there's maybe some confusion maybe we can

43:42

Straighten things out. Um and jonathan, maybe you can Jump in here. I think you could be helpful on this one as well.

43:49

Um the the lumping in with cessationist and being reformed um

43:59

You mentioned people that we know that want to say all calvinists are cessationists all cessationists are calvinists

44:06

They're just you know Intertwined so tightly that you can't separate the two um

44:12

And and when you say reformed you mean calvinist? Jonathan, um

44:19

Would you say because I thought about this as as big john was doing the the critique or review on virgil walker

44:27

When the comment was being made that Reformed guys are usually cessationist

44:34

I thought So Are we meaning reformed as in calvinist or reformed as guys coming out of the reformation?

44:46

You see what i'm saying because I I think that would be true. Um Coming out of the reformation

44:54

Would be different than saying all reformed slash calvinists are cessation What do you think about that So I think you've got some historical calvinists

45:06

That are cessationist and I think that was sort of a general rule um During john calvin's day.

45:13

Okay. I mean like during that era of reformers and the reformation

45:19

I think that was Pretty pretty a pretty normal assessment. Um that kind of went hand in hand what what's really caught the apple cart with that and and the reason it's so hard is because um we now have a resurgence of reformed theology in our culture

45:39

It's been a great resurgence of that And a great resurgence of reformed theologians who are continualists

45:46

So for example, you know, john piper would be one, you know, john piper has been probably

45:53

One of the most influential theologians of of my lifetime, you know, um with writing and Got some other

46:11

Such as like david clatt, you got me. Sorry glitch. Here we go but like uh

46:18

You've also got other high influencers like david clatt. Uh, that would be a reformed continuous

46:25

Uh, matt chandler would be a reformed charismatic is the term he uses he says i'm a reformed charismatic is the phraseology that he uses um, so you've got a lot of guys that Are well respected in christian communities that have been high influencers in american christianity

46:45

That are reformed or calvinistic leaning in their theology or high I wouldn't call them and I wouldn't call myself like a high calvinist.

46:53

You know what I mean that that like um, even when it comes to like double predestination and things of that nature, you know, um, but at the same time, uh

47:02

You know, I don't have i'm not offended if someone calls me a calvinist or reformed in my theology especially in the study of soteriology,

47:10

I think that's been the big the big shift is not like a

47:15

A clinging to the term calvinism. It's answering the question who gets the credit for your salvation god or man

47:22

And and and so we were raised in a culture I was raised in a culture where it was a hundred percent based on me.

47:30

God suspended salvation In space and it's up to me to reach up and get it um, well that is a

47:37

Terrible definition of grace in my opinion, you know, um, and so So that so I fell in love with the doctrines of grace, you know with grace and that kind of thing and then

47:51

Then I just began to study scripture. So you've got another whole group and resurgence of people that have really

47:59

Take scripture at face value like I was meditating on this the other day like going back to first corinthians 12 and When when when paul writes if cessationism is true

48:12

Then then we have to kind of like take our marker And go like to chapter 12 like like verse 28

48:21

Like where it says, you know, he first God appointed to the church first apostles

48:27

Second prophets and third teachers So then we're going to have to go there and say okay Apostles no longer exist prophets no longer exist.

48:35

We believe in the gift of teaching And if this is and it isn't I believe in chronological order because it's like and then and then and then

48:42

So then it goes then paul goes and writes and then miracles then the gift of healing then the gift of helping

48:48

So we're going to say well, we don't believe in the gift of miracles the more the gift of healings Well, we're okay with the gift of helping and the gift of ministration, so we'll leave those in there

48:57

We're going to have to black out the other ones And then various kind of tongues You know those kind of things well

49:02

We're not sure about that. So we'll black that out And then paul says are all apostles are all the prophets are all teachers do all the miracles do all do these things.

49:09

No um But earnestly desire the higher gifts and so it's like we'd have to take that passage of scripture if we're a cessationist

49:17

And begin to mark out Like okay, I can't We don't believe this.

49:23

We do believe this. We don't believe this We do believe this and then paul's chronological would have to be completely out of order because there was apostles the prophets the teachers

49:31

So teachers remain But what became before teachers and after teachers were going to start x -ing out again and so so that that to me when when guys like myself and and and coming

49:48

Those other camps that I just mentioned Are reformed also cares

49:56

Guy sorry There we go there Yeah, we're talking about that are reformed

50:05

That are reformed and are calvinistic um It's a group of guys in that's been a resurgence in american culture that weren't tied to some denomination or some system but are more

50:19

In love with taking scripture at what scripture says And reading scripture in a very value manner

50:26

So so that's not insulting to someone else, but it is insulting to the high cessationist that are calvinistic cessationist

50:34

They're saying oh, we're more like the original reformers okay and so I understand their argument in that but my goal is not to be necessarily like original reformer.

50:46

I praise god what they did but um Um But my goal is not to be just like them, you know, it's it's to open the word of god and discover what it says so I do think a lot of the

51:00

The scariness that virgil was saying for guys like myself for guys like others

51:06

Problem is we don't fit in anybody's box so therefore It makes him really uncomfortable, you know, because we're not calvinistic enough you know to really be

51:18

The perfect model of john calvin um And so so he's saying anybody that's not fitting that Early church father mold must be wrong um, so so that's that's the way

51:31

I see it because there is there's a lot of modern day theologians that Are right what we're talking about now that are highly respected people that are high influencers in christianity today so let me tackle those two verses and you guys can

51:47

I'll graciously point out where i'm wrong Um Looking at the first one that you that you brought up.

51:54

Uh, you you were reading about peter And I think you were speaking to those who say well

52:02

This is an example people will use will say peter used his gift at will and you read the passage where he says um

52:10

You know silver and gold have I don't have but what I do have I'll give to you, you know stand up and walk and then you can't continue which was

52:20

Really good and I and I was grateful for that and you continue to read and then you had peter speaking after the fact and he was like This was this was not me.

52:31

This was the holy spirit. This was jesus christ, you know, he was giving all glory all credit um to god for what had happened and and so that was kind of your defense of The not at will argument.

52:46

Sure. Um, so I think in that this is what I was thinking when I was listening to you

52:53

I think in that circumstance where you read both passages um if Let's just say hypothetically.

52:59

I was a continuationist and I was in a continuationist church I would want my continuationist brothers and sisters to reflect

53:09

As much as we could Peter in that instance because I see both and happening

53:19

And I think that's it If continuationism is true and and and people still have the that give

53:28

Then they should behave just like peter that he gave all glory and credit to god for what happened

53:35

He did he took no credit and he I mean He He made sure that they knew it was not him however, you can't take away from that passage where he says

53:49

I have jesus I have jesus But he is the one giving the command to the the person

53:57

Take up your bed and walk. Oh, that's well. I won't say that's a simple question to answer That's not a simple question answer.

54:03

It's loaded because there's going to be some Uh liberties I take with this, okay, so in acts 2 as a spirit gives the utterance they speak right

54:14

So i've always got the impression at least that they're speaking as the holy spirit is whispering in their ear what to say all right, so whenever Jesus speaks and preaches to people he tells them the kingdom of god is at hand continually

54:30

Mm -hmm. Now is the day now is the time today is the day kingdom of god is at hand, right? And then peter walks up to that man.

54:37

All i've got is the gospel That's I mean, that's literally what he says. I don't have no silver.

54:42

I don't have no gold what I do have i'm going to get Right, right free that he was given so freely

54:52

Sorry guys, sorry, I got a phone call Sorry, so the uh the idea is

54:58

That if the holy spirit gives the utterance when they're speaking in tongue And peter fixes his eyes on him and says what such as I have

55:06

I give you in the name of jesus christ Get up and walk and the man gets up and walk. Now if you're saying that you're if they are uh, if and is that what you said?

55:16

Not either or you're a if and When you asked me this question You said you could see it being both that peter

55:23

Both were happening at the same time peter gave the command as as it I mean it it reads as if He's doing it at will.

55:31

That's the way a plain reading of it. That's the way it looks he's doing it at will But then you have the other happening as well where he is making sure the explanation he's not giving any credit to himself

55:42

It's all how many times does jesus say something? That the people in the room don't understand and he explains to the apostles

55:51

And gives them a better understanding or more perfect learning if the parables are right, right, right

55:56

So it's not it's not uncommon or at least it doesn't seem uncommon to me For somebody who's in the know to make a statement to somebody who's absolutely out of the know

56:07

Making a statement and the people that are around Writing down or reporting exactly as what they saw but what you see is not the whole story

56:17

So the whole story is what peter tells us the whole story Here's what you think you saw you think you saw me tell this man to get up and walk but in actuality what happened is

56:27

Jesus has made this man. Well the same jesus that you put on the cross the same jesus your dirty hand that you've killed

56:33

I think both can be true You can give credit Obviously credit has to go to god.

56:40

Sure But he had that in the cessationist view At that time peter had that gift to say get up and walk

56:49

And he's able to give jesus because he he did not receive that gift. Okay, so let's use the same logic

56:56

I mean, he didn't create that gift if peter having that same gift then

57:02

Why do you walk by him every other day? Why was that one day? Good question. Why didn't jesus walk by him?

57:09

These are 38 years every day for 38 years. How many days did jesus walk by? well I Jesus may be a little and I think you brought this up too in your critique jesus is a little different scenario because you do have that passage where Jesus healed did heal somebody in the temple

57:27

But it was it was to show um Show he's got on the side.

57:33

He's got yes. Yeah, there was a purpose in that healing So he may have already walked past that man multiple times, but there was a purpose in that day in that time

57:41

Uh for him to do that, what was the purpose in the six What is the purpose in the sickness?

57:48

I don't think we can say glorify god Who's saying this man or his parents?

57:54

Nobody this this man's condition is like this so that the glory of god might be revealed in him, right? Paul and his infirmities.

58:01

He said I glory in my infirmities, right? So if paul having the ability to heal at will

58:07

Takes and can't be healed when he prayed for himself then It doesn't seem it doesn't seem logical

58:14

To me to say that he has the ability to heal at will and then tell timothy to drink a little wine for stomach right Well, the argument would be from the cessationist view well, that's because the giftings were already dying at that point yes, yeah, and but that doesn't line up with the rest of the books because as as the books of the bible increase as the as the uh

58:32

Officials grow on and the years go by that it seems the giftings of the holy spirit tend to multiply in the church. Okay it

58:40

So robert in that text you think there's anything unique about acts 3 verse 4 You got it in front of you

58:49

Yeah, I do It just says this is when they entered in the beautiful gate and it says there in verse 4 and peter directed his gaze at him

58:56

As did john And said look at us So do you think the holy spirit was involved in?

59:04

Making them focus on him and them calling out to him to look at them There's no speculation right here.

59:16

Yeah Um, we're we're gonna take some I did say we're gonna take some liberties with the text, right? I cannot

59:22

I cannot deny the the involvement of the holy spirit, I mean um, so that's what i'm saying apart from christ we can do nothing but you know and that goes back to the the tension between you know, we were talking about calvinism a while ago the tension between Um the sovereignty of god and responsibility of man.

59:40

So, you know, there seems to be some tension here about their gift of healing

59:48

And their use of it And the holy spirit's role. I see that tension the same as we do with calvin

59:54

So just like when jesus at the pool of bethesda, why did he walk across so many? Only he'll one

01:00:00

And we had we had the answer jesus says that I Do nothing that I do not hear and see from the father

01:00:09

And our and so I think our assumption of the apostles giftings and they're working in miraculous they do nothing

01:00:17

That they don't hear And see from jesus or hear and see from the holy spirit

01:00:22

So I see peter and john walking into the temple just like they normally would any other day And the holy spirit does something in them without taking hyper liberty with the text

01:00:32

But I mean like I think it's stringing it together That for some reason the holy spirit stopped them because how many other lame beggars were there as well, you know but for this one guy in particular

01:00:44

The holy spirit stops them both of them. It wasn't just peter to peter and john

01:00:51

Both had the same unction the same pause the same conviction the same

01:00:57

Stop of the holy spirit to gaze at him And then they spoke to him. Look at us

01:01:04

You know and and got his attention and so um, so I so it's not like just a random act of a gift

01:01:14

This was something that was very intentional That they had walked by how many other people that needed healing how many other people that needed deliverance how many other people?

01:01:24

so for me, too, this this is where my Reform theology kicks in this is a this is a view of election as well

01:01:32

That this this man was predestined and elected to receive exactly what peter and john that god was going to give them through peter and john this was like I was

01:01:46

He's not making Me god god is is god. That's right, right and there's going to be things god does that You Nobody understands the reasoning behind it.

01:02:00

That's right. That's why you believe right? That's why you have faith one of the things that I remind my church continually is that I don't know what's going to happen in 10 minutes

01:02:11

I I can plan I can I can scheme and plot and do whatever I want to do I don't know what 10 minutes is going to hold

01:02:18

I'm, just following The lord i'm following his word, that's what the bible says We just do this right one step at a time one day at a time, right, but 12 3 and 12 speaks to me

01:02:30

That's how this replied to peter menendezer. Why do you marvel at this? Or why do you gaze at us is it by our own power or not that we had made this man walk, right now?

01:02:40

I purposely chose The legacy standard bible tonight and the nasb 95

01:02:48

The other day so that I can't be accused of trying to use A version of scripture that doesn't dwell inside of many uh

01:02:58

Reformed houses, right? The only other one I could probably use an esv which you got one over here I could flip that and it's not going to say nothing any different than that, right?

01:03:07

so, uh I just think that it's I mean it I I see peter saying it's not anything to do with me

01:03:17

If peter was from charitable, he'd say anybody who believes in the lord now

01:03:24

You talk about revelation with the other question. We're going to talk about a hope, right? Or we're going to you said you had two questions. Yeah No The other question was you kind of brought it up in your explanation.

01:03:34

You're talking about tongues um And let me make one more comment and then we'll get to that one. Um, maybe a point of agreement on this particular passage

01:03:43

Good would we say that john and peter especially peter here? Um were conduits

01:03:51

I mean, I suppose you could say that if you want to Would you would you use that terminology? in this particular case

01:03:59

I'd probably use more of the term fire hose They they were the same thing we are today they were the hands and feet of jesus so Does that make sense?

01:04:18

Right, right. So I would see that I would see that different. We would all think that there were a fire hose or a conduit um, and I would kind of see

01:04:27

How that played out a little bit differently, but I wouldn't see that scenario being played out today so I don't believe that there's any conduits today

01:04:38

All right. Um, I think that's a bad description Yeah, I think it's a bad description to use the word conduit

01:04:44

Because because a conduit nothing it's a conduit is designed for something to pass through but not remain

01:04:51

And we are the temple of the holy spirit He remains in us and I think

01:04:57

I think not thinking thoroughly through it I've used the term conduit as a means by which god delivers a gift but after thinking

01:05:07

Through the last while, you know I mean, we're jars of clay Right and and god fills us

01:05:16

As jars of clay weak vessels to show that the surpassing power belongs to him and not to man

01:05:22

I think that's what peter's making an argument here about that Hey, you think this was me, but I am just a jar of clay.

01:05:30

I am a weak vessel The surpassing power belongs to god. I'm just an uneducated

01:05:36

Fisherman, I you know and peter gets it gets the same gig when he goes to the house of carnelius

01:05:41

You know the holy spirit sovereignly moves on them and they bow down to worship peter and like they rip their clothes and be like Look, you know,

01:05:49

I mean we we We're just a messenger, you know, and so so I So it's hard again

01:05:59

Just when we start dealing with and the identity of a believer As one who is the temple of the holy spirit the power of god is within us

01:06:07

We are the hands and feet of jesus. We're living stones building up the body of christ You know and and then god

01:06:14

Strengthens us for the work that he's called us to do I don't see that it's changed. I totally agree with what john said a while ago

01:06:20

I'm, not saying that the apostles calling or gifting was not unique and special in the book of acts and the breaking forth of that Versus where we're at today in a normal church situation

01:06:31

I'm, not saying it's not unique or special or even that they're the pillars, you know the foundational things

01:06:38

But as far as an identity in christ and the indwelling of the holy spirit You know,

01:06:43

I don't think that's changed from yesterday today or forever, you know, and so So I but I do agree with you that the word conduit could be a very misleading term, you know

01:06:53

Um, I don't disagree with that Let me say this and maybe you guys can still love me a lot after I say this so I don't know

01:07:02

Um So do you believe salvation is a miracle would you classify it as a miracle? Yeah Would you and would you classify let's say?

01:07:13

Let's say big john you have um terminal cancer and that In the next 10 minutes you were healed and would that be considered a miracle?

01:07:24

So my approach to your salvation as a lost person and your Healing of terminal cancer would be exactly the same i'm going to pray and ask god

01:07:34

To save you and i'm going to pray and ask god to heal you my approach would be exactly the same in both

01:07:41

Scenarios, I would say that that the salvation part is exceedingly hard Oh, sure.

01:07:46

Sure. Sure God made man with dirt Breathe breath life into him.

01:07:53

He had to die to save him, right? so I would say that it would from a from a just purely theoretical

01:08:01

You know theological point of view I would say that God healing a man of a terminal condition is far

01:08:09

Simpler of a thing than him saving a man from the sin. Oh sure the the quality of the the you know

01:08:16

We could we would agree that you know, they're different but they're still miracles That make sense greater works you shall do

01:08:25

Maybe And what peter and them saw was 3 000 souls saved at a time which one is greater true

01:08:36

I I totally agree no disagreement and I like maybe go to that verse Let me say this real quick, let me

01:08:45

Um, maybe a better phraseology of your words Um, I don't think us praying

01:08:51

In part praying for someone parts salvation into them. I don't think we find that biblically But what we do find?

01:08:58

Is by the preaching of the word the gift of proclamation and the preaching

01:09:04

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god and how will they know unless they have a preacher? So god still gifts men to preach the gospel

01:09:13

By which Faith as a gift of god is birthed into people's heart, which is the miracle of salvation

01:09:20

So it's still by the anointing of the holy spirit and the preaching is the normative way

01:09:25

That faith is imparted into someone's life by the holy spirit for salvation to come that is absolutely a miracle originated with the gifting of the holy spirit and it would be no different than on the other hand

01:09:37

Of praying for someone to be healed of cancer That it's still an unction and a faith of the holy spirit gifted to that person to pray

01:09:46

And then pray is believing, you know And and having that because I think there is those that have the gift of faith that they believe what is impossible where other

01:09:57

Others are praying and it's not a lack of faith It is a surrender and I and I and the hyper charismatics say that this is a prayer of unfaith

01:10:06

You know, but if they say lord, I don't know what your will is my desire is this person to be healed

01:10:11

So we pray that you heal them Nevertheless, not my will but your will be done. Whatever you decide we're good with, you know

01:10:18

And we should pray that if we don't have That clear unction of the holy spirit, but there's been other times in my life to where To not sound arrogant about it

01:10:30

But that I have prayed over people and I had such a confidence that when I prayed for them like it wasn't lord

01:10:36

Let your will be done It was like I know god what you're getting to do and i'm excited to pray for this person and I got to see people be healed

01:10:45

Knowing with that confidence in my heart that there was something that god had Given me an absolute directive to do and we prayed for them and they were healed that it was praying with faith

01:10:55

And it was like praying with the pre -knowledge Asking and you shall receive Kind of kind of scenario and so we don't always have that man

01:11:04

That's but I do believe in peter and john going back to your text here peter and john like I think

01:11:09

I don't think they had a Even a wince of wonder You know of is this guy fixing to be healed

01:11:16

I think they had such an absolute conviction that with with a boldness and unapologetic in the name

01:11:22

Unapologetic nature in the name of jesus get up and walk You know that there was a confidence there

01:11:29

They already had that work that word from the lord or however, you want to say it without being hokey they already had that conviction or so So that's what i'm saying, but it's all miracles.

01:11:39

It's all absolute miracles. And so Another thing that I would say in your in your illustration one is um is

01:11:50

From the physical brings about a spiritual manifestation. So in other words the preaching of the gospel is in the physical realm

01:11:57

And it's bringing about a spiritual miracle of salvation And obviously it's god doing it. But I mean don't misunderstand that Miracles is the other way around it's from the spiritual side bringing something natural

01:12:10

You know a miraculous in the natural so it's still miraculous So so I think that's the thing that we're dealing with too and we look at miracles and those kind of things

01:12:18

It's a two -way highway It's very complex. And so some things are spiritual matters

01:12:24

But what benefit is it of a person if they gain the whole world if they get all the healings in the world and they lose their soul

01:12:30

You know, so you never see in scripture where the healing is separated from the gospel So I was just going to tag on to what john had already shared about this text

01:12:40

It's awesome that he continued to read through that. I think I think the miracle not only was for the man

01:12:46

But the miracle Also was for the crowd of jews that ately rallied around them that they also preached the gospel to that crowd of jews

01:12:54

They gathered around them So the miracle was a breaking forth of the gospel In the midst of the synagogue to where now they had everybody's attention and listening.

01:13:02

So god's work wasn't just about This guy being healed. It was The it was the affirmation of the proclamation of the gospel.

01:13:11

So I think it's really important We take the whole context the whole story John did that is a great job.

01:13:18

Yeah, and that's what I appreciate about it. Um Let me throw some more complexity into that Your scenario there and you can untwist me um, which

01:13:27

I probably need to be so I don't see a scripture where uh, let's say a healing is qualified needing something whereas Salvation is qualified in scripture

01:13:40

By hearing the word, I don't know about that because the bible says that he sent forth his word and it healed but not all like God could heal somebody in ten book two that didn't have

01:13:56

A faith somebody with faith respect, right, but he can't save somebody without his word

01:14:04

And then hearing it now because they he qualifies that in scripture faith comes by hearing hearing from the word of god

01:14:11

That's bringing up. I didn't know that your parallel illustration of salvation and healing and being miracles

01:14:17

Is a good comparison. That's my point. That's okay. Okay. I got you. I'm gonna say

01:14:22

I like where you're going with this Where's the stop button on this thing

01:14:33

Yeah Here's my other uh scripture untwist me on this one, too

01:14:40

So I was listening to your your passage and it was I think you were still touching on the at will

01:14:45

And you you were brought in tongues. You didn't see where Tongues were an at will thing.

01:14:51

They they spoke tongues as they were given utterance. I think that was the passage that you were you're

01:14:58

Quoting from there or reading from What come to my mind was? What then was the purpose then of paul writing his books on?

01:15:09

telling them and giving them parameters and boundaries for These gifts if if they're because you think about jesus and you think about the children coming to jesus and jesus said and and the whole

01:15:25

And the apostles tried to forbid the children from coming to jesus and they said do not

01:15:30

Do not suffer little children from coming to me. They were trying to stop the work of the holy spirit. So if if it's

01:15:38

The spirit giving them the ocean and then that's when they do it then that would be what paul

01:15:44

Would be doing just like the apostles are trying to do if he's putting boundaries and seat belts and and and um kind of rules in in the in his um books

01:15:57

Of how to use these gifts he would be stopping the work Or controlling the work of the holy spirit

01:16:05

If he's giving them rules about how to use it So now first of all, he's not giving them rules.

01:16:11

Okay on how to work in the holy spirit He's giving them rules on how to conduct church what you're talking about, correct?

01:16:17

So I want to make sure that I don't I want to make sure

01:16:22

I answer the question correctly, but I want to ask correctly first. Okay, so when you Talk about virgil walker and I talked about virgil walker having been uh abused because of people claiming something happened in the spirit

01:16:36

And asserting authority that they said the spirit give them, right? There's rules conducting how we behave

01:16:44

Inside the congregation, isn't there? Yeah so What paul's doing to me is laying out frameworks and if you see things outside of this, this is not of god

01:16:57

So the argument then to me would reverse and say if all By the inspiration of the holy spirit is writing these books and he doesn't expect this to be something that continues beyond or has already

01:17:10

Started to cease in his day. Why even write it? Why not say to the opposite and say if you ever see anybody claiming tongues, you know that they're false

01:17:18

You need to stay away from them I got you.

01:17:24

That's that would be my answer to that when paul's talking to them He says at the end of all that he says forbid not to speak in his tongue, right?

01:17:31

But to make sure everything's done decently and in order so if you You may have it may not that I don't know in your life, but if you've ever been in a church where Five or six different people all of a sudden start speaking in tongues and you're standing around you're like i'm not sure at this point

01:17:46

What's legit and what's not i'd hate to say that but i've been in that place before And it's in those cases

01:17:52

I can be honest. I've said all right, let's go And my wife it's we just leave

01:17:58

I mean I just go get in my truck and I go home because We're not working inside Anymore, we've stepped out of what what has been prescribed in scripture as the way the church is

01:18:09

Uh, one of the things that I so appreciate about uh,

01:18:14

I'm gonna say his name but one of my pastors, uh That I first was studying under was he was uh, he was preaching at a church one night and I was there

01:18:23

It wasn't his church and uh Two people had got up during the course of the evening

01:18:29

Spoke in tongues and the third person got up. He said I might count that's three. He told his bible He said i'm done and he

01:18:35

And he walked away from the from the podium, you know And he turned it back over to the to the shepherd of the house and I thought

01:18:43

Well, that's I mean that's walking dead in line with scripture, you know, so um

01:18:51

And jonathan you might have disagreement with me on any of that and that's fine if you do I still love you I'll either either way. I hope

01:18:56

I didn't come up as disrespectful. No, no, and i'm i'm not trying to be either. Uh, just Comparing what you said to my example.

01:19:03

So we agree that the apostles have authority And at that time, they weren't the apostles.

01:19:10

They were still the disciples. So I know it's kind of weak but you know Comparing what you said to my scenario.

01:19:17

Um the The disciples at that time with the children were

01:19:25

Giving parameters on order But jesus said Forbid them not or suffer them not to come to me.

01:19:35

Maybe I understood your question, you know So paul, you know giving orders for church worship

01:19:44

Um It's kind of doing the same thing as disciples it would be forbidding um

01:19:55

We're stopping the work of the holy spirit But by giving those parameters kind of like the disciples were doing

01:20:02

In in that scenario, they were they were stopping the work of the holy spirit By stopping the children from coming stopping the children from coming.

01:20:09

Sure. And she straightened them out Jesus did so god's straightened them out, right? so whenever Paul's giving instruction to the church

01:20:17

About how to do things decently in order by the will of the holy spirit and the breath of the holy spirit He's straightening them out problems that would come

01:20:26

When people get out of order So what will we go to for a correction when we're out of line?

01:20:31

So the the premise of of this Um questioning is about is it at will or not?

01:20:38

So it's not The bible I don't believe the bible gives any credibility to someone saying that they maintain

01:20:46

A gifting that somehow god gives them this thing to use at their own Their own free will

01:20:52

I just don't I just the scripture doesn't line up and say that He says as the spirit gives the utterance every single time somebody speaks in tongues in the book of acts

01:21:01

So paul is giving parameters to the holy spirit paul's giving parameters I think there's

01:21:07

I think what paul's talking about Is legitimate and false. I think I think he's helping give discernment to the church of how to discern what is legitimate

01:21:15

What is false? I think he's also giving parameters on the role of women and men

01:21:22

Because there was still that affirmation of teaching And but then he also gives the authority to the spiritual leaders

01:21:33

We often skip over this passage. It says that if anyone thinks that he is a prophet or spiritual

01:21:38

He should acknowledge the things that i'm writing to you as were commanded of the lord So for those that are spiritual leaders

01:21:48

These are commands from the lord and then the command and this this makes Cessationist quiver what john already quoted to you as a command of the lord

01:21:58

Then so my brothers earnestly desire to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues

01:22:06

So so in other words we'd have to say Cessationist says well We're going to read this from a historical context, but this really doesn't have any application because this whole chapter is about Decency and order with speaking in tongues and prophecy and we no longer have that in the church

01:22:22

So we don't have to worry about this So it's not limiting the holy spirit. It's limiting flesh another thing

01:22:31

From a continuations worldview, I would say that if If We don't read scripture

01:22:41

And let scripture be authoritative in every area of our lives And if we don't read scripture and allow scripture to to govern everything from where we have church how we raise our family and our kids

01:22:51

And we treat portions of scripture as no longer necessary than the people that wind up getting bamboozled are the people who are the most ignorant of the parts of the scripture the the

01:23:03

Statement of Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it kind of comes to mind if you don't read the scriptures

01:23:08

And and think that they're applicable to you today, then you're not inclined to spend any time studying them

01:23:14

Why would you right and except to argue i'm not saying that's what you're doing But a lot of guys do study some scriptures to argue their point and um,

01:23:23

I I I don't want to be that kind of guy You know what? I mean? I want to study scripture to know the lord and to grow in him

01:23:31

Um, but it's about reading it and you agree with this sure we just um differ on The interpretation of it, you know, we believe in grammatical historical um contextual interpretation of scripture and so there are passages where they're specific to them

01:23:50

And we just may differ on which which ones Um, they are so I will give you this

01:23:57

The book of corinthians is not written to you It is written to the corinthian church

01:24:03

But all scripture is profitable probably so You have to be able to learn from it and be able to use it for correction and proof in a manner and leading in all gods and holiness, so if If it weren't timeless and if it weren't for you,

01:24:20

I'm going to use the word for use of to you Then it really has no business being in there, right?

01:24:25

That's a good distinction Yeah, that's good. So let me ask you just I had no question in In charismatic circles that you've been in and this is just observation.

01:24:35

This is really not scripture. It's just question Who speaks the loudest in tongues the most in tongues women or men women

01:24:45

Right And notice in this text This this is what we're saying robert And I agree with john john said 100 in church services that i've experienced where the supposedly these gifts are happening

01:24:59

This this is why we say that we're we're a seatbelt or we're cautious or like john said up and walk out when things are out of order

01:25:07

This passage in first corinthian 14 is not only for the corinthian church When you go down and and pick up in verse 33 for god is not a god of confusion

01:25:16

But of grace as in all the churches of the saints

01:25:22

All the churches not just corinth, but as in all the churches of the saints The women should keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak but should seek

01:25:32

You know, but in submission, you know seek the counsel of their husband is what it's saying on further through there, you know, so So just keep in mind too the things that he's addressing in corinthians, even though it is

01:25:42

Yes, it is written to the corinthians and there are specific things in there that in context are for the corinthians church

01:25:49

He's also saying this is not just for here. It's for all the churches and all the saints Everywhere, I think

01:25:56

I think by the time that paul got to corinth He already knew that his letters were being circulated among all the churches and his assumption is that the

01:26:05

Eventually be reading the letter of the corinthians And the galatians eventually be reading the letter of the corinthians

01:26:11

He he's already making that assumption because now he begins to address all churches as well. So The north carolinians would be that's right.

01:26:21

So you so you cessationist let me tell you this You can't pick and choose which verses that you want to apply.

01:26:27

Well, that's true. You can't use cessationist. You can't pick out Um women need to be silent and not not teach

01:26:34

Right and then leave out the speaking in tongues Right. I mean all scripture What's what's all of it mean?

01:26:42

No Hey, that's something cessationists have to work out i'm being i'm being funny you say cessationist cessationist

01:26:48

That's something cessationists have to work out. I mean those passages because we we want to use um

01:26:54

We forbid women to the speaker teach But then we want to talk about how we view first corinthians chapter 12.

01:27:01

So that's something that we got to work out well, I think that Well, i'll work it out just submit to This is this is hey good point, it's good for every camp

01:27:19

Yeah Uh So if we're not careful what we're going to run into is

01:27:25

The same thing that virgil walker wants you to do which is Huddle up to yourself

01:27:32

And never get outside of your club so that you'll never be uncomfortable And if you do that Man, if you do that, you will you will die and the church that you're part of i'm afraid will die too iron sharpens iron and if you can't learn

01:27:48

To to talk to the to the church the whole the whole church

01:27:54

Even the people you disagree with You're going to live a life of sterile passivity, right? And and if I didn't if I didn't mind being uncomfortable

01:28:04

I'd only be having cessationists at my house Yeah, i'm glad you I mean you you have shared the love of jesus.

01:28:10

I feel welcome the whole time You sent me a chair. You got me a cup. I mean, you know, I mean I got I did bring my own coffee

01:28:17

Because what you're drinking is way too harsh for this this time of day. This has got a residue

01:28:22

I did I did give you the flimsy chair though. Well, you did but I mean it's good for my back because i'm supporting

01:28:30

So what he had to do was uh in order for me to fit in the camera screen. I had to sit on the lower

01:28:38

And if I sit up straight I start to disappear Oh, uh, is there any questions that I that you want to ask just pointedly?

01:28:46

Uh, no, there's nothing off the table, you know, we have no notes, right? Right. So if there's something that you'd like to say,

01:28:52

I won't take any offense to it whatsoever But I may not be a banter No, you did bring up revelation and that I think that was the only other thing that I wanted to bring up from the your video uh was was maybe maybe a misunderstanding of revelation because I think

01:29:10

I hope all cessationists would agree with you on Your use of the words revelation because we

01:29:18

Your use of it Because we need the holy spirit to help us to understand scripture

01:29:25

Yeah So but they're speaking of special revelation. So I and everything here's the thing when i'm speaking about a special revelation

01:29:34

So we have general revelation with my understanding and I only took very minor classes So some of y 'all that done some educating straighten me out.

01:29:42

My understanding is general revelation is revelation of god's Power and his omniscience by the five senses that he gives sight smell touch taste

01:29:52

Whatever you see the ground you see the sky you see the buildings you see see creation and you know God must exist

01:29:58

Romans chapter one What i'm talking about is special revelation, which is supernatural revelation is where you realize

01:30:04

Or like peter realized this man is god Mm -hmm And that takes a special revelation because it took god revealing to peter that jesus is god

01:30:14

Well, I think our special revelation would be scripture and then extra biblical revelation would be

01:30:21

Hearing from god so outside of scripture. You don't think that the supernatural discernment of reading the scripture would be special revelation

01:30:31

Because I would The scripture is special revelation And Sir do what?

01:30:41

How do you understand the scripture there? Because there's a lot of people that read scripture and don't understand. Yeah. Yeah I mean scripture does tell us that you need no man to teach you.

01:30:51

You have the holy spirit So it is the holy spirit that leads and guides us in understanding scripture and and what you talked about is a tough tough issue because there's

01:31:02

Just so this as an example tonight. We have the same holy spirit, right? But we come up with different conclusions.

01:31:09

So let's look at the way that who's listening most So let's look at what the bible says. So jesus says

01:31:15

I gotta leave and I believe him. We'll send you a cup This is the jones version. Okay, this is not this is not king james Uh, so he says

01:31:21

I have to leave And i'll not leave you comfortless. I'm gonna send you a comforter and when he comes he naughty it ever charismatic that looks at this thing jesus

01:31:32

Is god he is god god the father he is god god the holy spirit He is god not it is not an impersonal force

01:31:41

So when he comes he'll lead you and guide you in all truth now

01:31:47

Fortunately by god's providence Who is true? What is true jesus is true, so how do you understand

01:31:56

Jesus if not by the holy spirit and jesus is referred to more than one occasion as the word

01:32:02

Made flesh, right? So i'm not doing too many Acrobatics here by saying that we're not going to understand the words that christ told us unless He reveals to us his word and if he's revealing to it to you it is by definition a revelation, right?

01:32:18

And that revelation is the to me That is what the church is built on is the supernatural revelation of who christ is no and I totally understand

01:32:27

That's how you view special revelation. I totally understand that the point that I wanted to make was that We see scripture as you you described general revelation correctly

01:32:38

But we see special revelation as scripture. I agree and we would include in I don't know that we would include in special revelation the

01:32:54

Enlightenment or the understanding Well, he's not right on everything, okay

01:33:04

Just saying I just want to throw a curveball to you on that no, uh, all right So we don't understand scripture unless god tells us what it means

01:33:12

And that's all there is to it well, it's the same possible you mentioned this a while ago jesus spoke to the apostles in in Parables so that those so that there's those that would understand and those that don't

01:33:27

Because the truth is hidden from the pharisees. It's hidden from them So but it's not hidden from the apostles.

01:33:34

So therefore jesus Brings revelation to them But there's past revelation present revelation and future revelation as well.

01:33:42

So I mean that's That's what peter 1 peter 1 talks about too that like at the revelation of jesus christ

01:33:51

Oh you're You're time traveling No, I mean

01:33:58

I I think jonathan I agree on this Uh, and maybe maybe me and you do just to different degrees of it.

01:34:05

My biggest issue isn't the I believe practically the practical

01:34:12

Even even the Cessationist who's a staunch cessationist who absolutely does not affirm any kind of signed gifts or any of the things that y 'all

01:34:20

Say that we we affirm I believe that as he's reading scripture whenever god is revealing himself to scripture.

01:34:28

I believe that he is Actually understanding the scripture as best as he can but we have to we have to give credit

01:34:35

Where's to what is a gift of the holy spirit that we refer to as discernment? And understanding god's word

01:34:41

I just It's it's right in there with it. There's a lot of arrogance in some folks who believe because we have the word of god that In the in the printed text.

01:34:53

That's that's that's all we need and that's partly true The printed text is all you need to know everything about god except the fact

01:35:01

That you can read this as a lost man And stay lost your whole life unless god makes this thing alive to you in your mind, that's right

01:35:10

And that's true and there's a lot of secular historians who read this book all the time And they're just as lost as any old tomcat running around that field out there

01:35:20

And and the fact of the matter is is that when god when god opens your eyes to this scripture

01:35:26

That is an unveiling that is a revelation And then you to me you have to make the decision as to whether you're going to surrender to that or not

01:35:33

I know that that's different for your point of view Well, let me put it to you like this and give this example and then john can correct me and help me understand it better Um, which is perfectly fine, um, so I think there's two things going on I think there's there's truth from god's word, right which you talked about and then there's um desire

01:35:59

And the holy spirit gives both he gives truth and he gives desire desires Um of our heart to apply what we learn, right?

01:36:07

so True with there's a certain order truth comes first and then desire emotions truth has to Desires and emotions have to be informed by truth, right?

01:36:19

See, yeah, i'm gonna I won't be nitpicky because we've been on here a long time But that's not what jesus says

01:36:27

Jesus says if you read hear my words and you do them You're like a man who builds his house on the rock

01:36:33

But if you hear my words and you don't do them, you're like a foolish man who builds his house on the sand Right, so it's not about your desire so much as the reality of whether or not you adhere to god's word.

01:36:44

Sure. Sure, but What i'm getting at is that my desire can be Um, I can

01:36:50

I can mistaken. I'm gonna my desire. I just I can't mistake truth so Let me put it to you like this as an example.

01:36:57

So, um Why as a baptist who is a cessationist which is different than you, right?

01:37:05

So why do you love me number one? From scripture, right?

01:37:10

And number two the holy spirit applies that in your heart to desire to obey that word so both things both things are happening the the truth is

01:37:24

That you should love people were commanded to love one another and then by the work of the holy spirit

01:37:31

Gives you that function or that desire And so that's how I see, you know interpreting scripture.

01:37:37

Um now Am I getting all of my interpretation wrong? That doesn't change what the truth is my interpretation is wrong.

01:37:45

That's solid That's solid wisdom. Yeah, so the truth is always right And I and I and all scripture is true, right and so this is my source um, whether I get it right all the time or not is

01:38:01

Irrelevant to whether this is truth or not So i'm going to come to the truth then as the whole i'm going to seek and pray that the holy spirit would and and Enlighten me and give me the ocean and desire to obey that word to it commands me to love you.

01:38:20

So I If if that desire is in me, so those two things are matching and coming together

01:38:27

The scripture commands me to love you my heart and ocean. My heart's desire is to love you though.

01:38:34

You're different than me Truth and desire are matching up. So I see um a more complete um

01:38:44

I feel like i'm following the holy spirit there and i'm understanding scripture because The truth and my desire are matching up.

01:38:51

I'll give you that. I'll give you that I would say to add to that That there's going to be things that we don't understand on this side of heaven until we pass away

01:39:03

But with that being said I also believe that the more that you

01:39:09

Spend in this book and in prayer the more he'll reveal to you about him That that you're never going to get to the bottom of him

01:39:17

So I refer to that as you get low hanging fruit And then you realize there's some fruit that's higher in the tree

01:39:23

It's just a sweep that takes a little bit more work to get through You got to stay in the book a little bit longer to get to and uh,

01:39:30

I believe that god rewards those who diligently seek him and so I would say that your desires

01:39:38

Go ahead. I love it. So your desires started me to cut you off john. You need to finish I saw your desires reflect

01:39:46

What god's doing in you? Right. How will you know, how will we know them except for that?

01:39:51

They have love one for another right and the more you spend time with god the more you're going to start acting like like god would have you to act and that's just That's both old testament and new testament truth and behavior beginning.

01:40:03

I can tell that they've been around you know, they could tell that you've been around god and and If you've ever gone through a period of fasting and prayer

01:40:12

And and where you sort of push away from everything for a little while Uh, you'll you'll begin to people will begin to notice something's different And that's because the more time you spend with god the more you act like And what's going to speak more to the world?

01:40:26

That you and I agree on continuation or cessation or that you and I are different and yet love one another

01:40:32

I'll give you that. I mean, that's yeah Go ahead brother. Let me real quick.

01:40:40

Um Let's let's make sure that as we're tracking through this we strengthen scripture upon scripture upon scripture, okay?

01:40:48

What what turned my heart? More than anything else toward a reformed theology

01:40:53

Was because I was I was so indoctrinated to a hyper free will point of view that I really did

01:41:00

So much on me that when I did choose god i'm actually doing god a favor

01:41:06

So in other words god owes me because I chose him and then

01:41:13

Brother sent me down and went through romans chapter 3 And as he sat down and went through romans chapter 3 where there's no man that seeks god

01:41:20

No man, just of his own volition just wakes up one day and is like i'm going to seek god I have or I have a desire to seek god.

01:41:27

No man has that of his own volition that doesn't exist According to scripture all men like chief of god pray all have become worthless before god.

01:41:37

That's the sv version I like it because I think it really puts us in the context of who we should be all before god have absolutely become

01:41:44

Worthless. So what worth did god send us none? What need does god have of us none?

01:41:50

Like so it really puts man in his right position and god in his right position. So we did not have a desire seeking him

01:41:57

So that's the romans 3 verdict of god over all mankind every individual

01:42:03

So what changed this from a romans 3 person that no one was seeking god and no one's calling on god to a romans 10 9

01:42:09

Person that we're calling upon the name of the lord to be saved. We're confessing with our mouth We're believing with our heart like there is this human response.

01:42:18

What happened? And and I took a journey on that and so I hope this helps answer a little bit of the question that you guys are

01:42:25

Ping -ponging back and forth between truth and desire Even special revelation.

01:42:31

This is this is where I get my definition from special revelation We go back to what jesus taught in john chapter 6

01:42:39

Jesus said to them and john 6 uh 30 my eyes ain't so good 30 35 jesus said to them.

01:42:46

I am the bread of life Whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

01:42:52

So there's the promise That we get into salvation now Now the question is how did we get to that place to call upon him to believe upon him what happened?

01:43:02

Then jesus says this But I say to you What I say to you have been seeing me yet do not believe but I say to you that you have seen me and do not

01:43:12

Believe so so there's jesus saying hunger never thirst if you believe on me, but then there's some of you that's seen me

01:43:20

But you don't believe on me so that's what I meant to ask that other question. So what's the difference? What's the difference between those that believe on him never hunger and thirst but yet those that seen him

01:43:29

And don't believe like what's the difference? Verse 37 and it's one of my favorite passages in the bible

01:43:35

It says all that the father gives me so step one And over our john 6 44

01:43:43

The father draws right? No one comes father draws Jesus says all that the father gives me so then in words this work of the father giving us to jesus

01:43:53

Now this goes back to what you're saying a second ago john some will hear and not see and some will do it but for those that That get this this special revelation

01:44:04

It's not might come to me. It says they will come to me like they absolutely will when you get this

01:44:11

Profound revelation a divine special revelation from god of who jesus is you will come to him

01:44:19

And in that coming to him that's still of our volition. It's still a changing of our mind and heart We are making a choice to come to him, but it's a guaranteed choice

01:44:28

Like it's it's something that we will come And then he says and whoever comes to me then what?

01:44:34

Whoever this is the whosoever people's like calvinists don't believe in the who Whoever comes to me.

01:44:40

I know why it's turned out. I won't turn them away So so this is this is the whole counsel of the gospel in one verse

01:44:49

That the father gives special revelation to whoever's there that is the preaching of his word

01:44:54

Through the work of the holy spirit. There's a grand mystery of however god does that And then when that happens

01:45:02

They will come they're going to call upon the lord Jesus i'm lost i'm undone sinner.

01:45:08

I need a savior. And then what's the problem? Whoever does that whoever calls upon me like that He won't turn them away, but you're safe all they're going to be safe so Yep, and so that's

01:45:21

That's that has to be those special revelation. That's not because there's those that see jesus and and don't believe

01:45:30

They're not given to jesus by the father they're not drawn by the father they're left in a place of ever learning

01:45:36

But never coming to the knowledge of the truth and so So that is special revelation.

01:45:42

I know that special revelation that we're also talking about is someone that's like, oh I got I got this itch in my head right now.

01:45:49

So that means you know Trump's going to be president tomorrow evening, you know and that kind of stuff. That's all the stuff that it's like, yeah

01:45:58

Prophecy is he making prophecy? We But i'm just saying you're gonna have that you've got these out here making these prophecies

01:46:20

That's like man, that's stupid. They ain't got nothing to do with the gospel That's right, and we should have enough

01:46:25

Permit to say it exactly like that. That's not special revelation That's you trying to rub two quarters together and come up and share your opinion.

01:46:32

I'm not interested That's it. That's it So so what if we're not careful robert what

01:46:41

I don't want to what I what I I don't think you're saying this but if we make If we make the revelation of scripture as common revelation

01:46:52

Then there's no real reason to worship Because i'm able to arrive at the truth of the gospel apart from the work of the holy spirit just because it's written on pages

01:47:02

And and so so we don't Jesus and jesus wouldn't believe that you know what I mean? Jesus would believe that it requires a work a sovereign work of the father

01:47:12

Yeah before anyone come to the revelation of jesus christ and and then in that revelation of jesus christ

01:47:19

We come to him and we call upon him and he gloriously By grace through faith saves us, you know in in that so No, I I totally agree

01:47:30

The the distinction that I wanted to make is when you just use the term or word revelation

01:47:37

There's so many Definitions and nuances of that term. They don't all mean the same thing

01:47:43

So when we're talking about the revelation of scripture that the holy spirit does to help us understand it

01:47:48

Or the enlightening and special revelation if that's the word that you guys want to use of the holy spirit

01:47:55

Showing us our depravity our need for salvation and and giving us the gift of faith That's different than the type of revelation that cessationists refer to which is what you were just talking about describing the um

01:48:10

Now that's extra biblical manifestations is what they're referring to right So there's folks that try to look for extra biblical manifestations of god in their toast and in their coffee

01:48:21

Right, and and you know, I was on my way to work this morning and the way the sun went to the clouds

01:48:26

I just knew that somehow by the time I got there that coffee was already going to be you know It's just stupid stuff like that.

01:48:32

They don't have nothing to do with price eggs in china. That's right, right? So the I love paul's version and I don't like the way the lsb says it but it's in galatians 4

01:48:43

The way the king james and where the nasb that said it was a this thing you began in the in the spirit

01:48:49

You don't perfect in the flesh So much of what I hear people saying in the in the in the cessationist slash

01:49:00

Calvinistic camp Especially on your very far ends of it your ragged edges of it

01:49:05

Is that we only needed god to start the church now? We're going to take it over from here and finish and that's exactly what virgil says

01:49:13

Virgil says in these words He says we needed the holy spirit to lay the foundation of the church

01:49:19

But now with the completion of the biblical canon, we don't need the sign of gifts anymore and that is just plain

01:49:26

Wrong because there's a church in america You might be able to make a statement like that, but there's also an unreached people group that have never read the bible

01:49:34

They don't have a bible. So if you're going to use that as your as your testimony Well, you have a finished canon in your language.

01:49:41

Therefore. You don't need the holy spirit to move any I just I just all disagree with that statement period but Then you have to say there's a whole other people group here that either god has completely rejected by not giving them a bible

01:49:52

I I don't think he's saying that and I I would disagree with that I think what

01:49:58

I hear him saying and what cessationist would say is that the holy spirit is not

01:50:06

Relaying the foundation not that we don't need the continued help of the holy spirit But the holy spirit is not relaying a foundation over and over and over and over again

01:50:15

There's only one foundation apostles and they're saying the foundation is the apostles and i'm saying they're wrong

01:50:22

The foundation of the church is who is jesus christ That is the foundation of the church

01:50:27

Well, the scripture now says the apostles and jesus is the chief Apostle says and jesus says in matthew 16.

01:50:34

He says upon this rock I'll build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against him

01:50:39

He said blessed are you simon bar -jonah for fresh blood did not reveal this to you But my father who is in heaven has revealed this to you

01:50:45

And I say to you that peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it break that scripture down and look at it

01:50:53

Well this you either have to say that this is either peter Or this is what god has revealed to peter now

01:50:58

I think we can unilaterally agree that peter's not the rock of the church, can't we right or the foundation of the church

01:51:03

So then it has to be something else of that statement The only other thing in that statement to make sense to me

01:51:09

Is that it's the revelation of who of who christ is and the fact that god has made that revelation to peter

01:51:16

So if that is the reason That if that's what the church is built on And the church is not built on the signed gifts of the apostles or the giftings that god give the apostles

01:51:26

But merely the revelation of who jesus is and then when you look at how the how the lord Through the holy spirit moves on the church.

01:51:32

What is the church saying over and over and over again? This is who jesus is right and that understanding of who christ is is how folks are saved

01:51:41

That's how folks even hear the gospel and by and by hearing the gospel Come to faith in christ and all of that is based on their understanding

01:51:49

Of who jesus is so that'd be the foundation of the church and that's not changed, right? And and that's why paul would say if anyone comes to you with another gospel, let him be an apostle

01:51:58

Because that's the foundation of the church But well the foundation of the church being the revelation of who jesus is the gospel being the good news.

01:52:06

Jesus is the gospel. Yeah Yeah Uh, yeah living god, that's right.

01:52:11

Yeah And that was the message That he jesus gave the apostles and they laid that foundation.

01:52:18

Yeah, well everybody That has had or got it by my definition.

01:52:23

The apostles didn't hit the foundation god did well By revealing who jesus is god is effectively laying the foundation and that lines up with scripture

01:52:32

Because it says the lord has made him both head and chief Cornerstone of the church, right?

01:52:38

so if If i'm right and i could be wrong I stand to be wrong But if i'm right then the foundation of the church is the revelation of who christ is and christ

01:52:46

Is the chief cornerstone, which is a stumbling block of offense to some And to others is our our refuge from from the from the four minutes of hail to come so That's that's my view of what the foundation of the church is

01:53:03

And if and if i'm right in that Then the apostles can be looked at as carpenters of the church

01:53:09

They can be looked at as people who help build the kingdom of god by sharing the gospel all over the world But ultimately it's god who who brings those in And we share in that legacy and the fact that we still take the same good news the same gospel about the same christ

01:53:23

Well, I think it's Quoting galatians and hebrews earlier.

01:53:29

I think it's very safe to say the gospel verse the first row of rocks Where god's building his kingdom building his church by these living stones

01:53:39

I'm, okay saying that they were the first rocks because they're the first believers but i've always Struggled with saying that they're the foundation.

01:53:46

They're not the rock So christ himself is the cornerstone, but what is the rock that we build our house on not the foolish man of sand?

01:53:53

But what is it? I've always made the argument that it's actually the confession of the confession of peter

01:53:59

It's the confession of faith is is bedrock of our foundation, too, you know, i've heard that said and and but I don't know

01:54:08

You said I still think it's the the the the red I still think it's the revelation of going back to our word.

01:54:16

I think it's the revelation of jesus christ and that's where That's the beginning and the end and that's where first peter 1 13 says that we're going to endure until we see

01:54:26

The revelation of jesus christ, you know, so there's like a futuristic revelation As well.

01:54:31

So going back to the word revelation I think the foundation is the revealing of christ.

01:54:37

I think the revelation I mean the the foundation was even what the angel said You know that peace on earth and goodwill toward men like like we're heading toward christmas, you know that that proclamation

01:54:50

I mean that that Jesus himself is now revealed in the earth

01:54:55

And that is the foundation from that point on that the church was built upon and then the apostles become just The first royal rocks and he was the cornerstone

01:55:03

And then the apostles are lining up and i'm building some houses right now. So this is kind of a fresh analogy for me footers and digging foundations

01:55:12

But there's a royal block that goes above the above the foundation, you know, and so yeah, that's just my two cents but But I agree with you john.

01:55:20

I don't disagree with what you're saying Well, well I think it's we've been going on here a good while so let's do all right, let's let's wrap it up, uh, all that Yeah, all that being said

01:55:33

I do Um, I do think big john. I think you did a good job on your review. Um, I think you were fair Um, I think you were kind and loving um

01:55:44

I appreciate that. Yeah, I just think it was a good example of how to Uh lovingly critique somebody and you and you made it clear that you did not have any personal beef with virgil walker kids

01:55:58

That's right. And you also um, well I was going to start the program with What what beef do you have with virgil walker?

01:56:05

But maybe virgil be beefing. That's right but you you said that you you want to make that clear that you didn't not and then you also wanted to you you spoke to Continuationists and you spoke to cessationists.

01:56:18

Um that Don't don't take this out of context. Don't I mean so you were fair to both sides.

01:56:24

I think it was really good Gotta be the board. Yeah Um, appreciate you having me. Oh, yeah.

01:56:30

I'm glad you could come over. Yeah, I Need to remind you that I don't

01:56:35

I'll just live five minutes down the road more often I don't live in tennessee. You're right.

01:56:40

You're so right Oh, but just just as pastor jonathan was reminding us in john chapter six, um

01:56:50

I'm pretty that's the passage you were in right? I'll make sure yeah, it's 36 37.

01:56:57

We The bible does tell us that um, we we need a savior what we have fallen short of god's glory and that we

01:57:09

We Somehow some way we don't none of us understand it. Um Completely, but he uses his word to awaken us and the holy spirit does that and that word is

01:57:23

We have all sinned In adam, we've all fallen short of god's glory um, we cannot live good enough to Earn it and we cannot live good enough to make up for our sin

01:57:38

We need a rescuer. We need a savior and that savior is jesus christ and god's one and only son

01:57:45

That everyone believing in him whosoever However, you want to phrase it Everyone believing in him will not perish but have everlasting life call on the name of the lord.

01:57:57

You will be saved the holy spirit Will give those folks Repentance and faith in him.

01:58:04

It's all to his glory not of ours And and just as as peter um did then

01:58:13

We give all glory to god and just as my brother john and my brother jonathan do they give all glory to god um

01:58:22

And that's that's what this program is about is about Exampling the love that the holy spirit has worked in us and as we try to understand scripture together, so we implore you

01:58:37

And and leave you with the command to submit to your king By repenting of your sins and putting your faith in jesus christ because he is king of kings and lord of lords

01:58:47

No matter what happens tomorrow or any other election day So amen turn to him today uh jonathan

01:58:54

Well, I know big john and myself took up a lot of the the time but would you mind to close us in prayer?

01:59:00

No, thank you guys for letting me join in man. I had my time to Pray Father we do.

01:59:07

Thank you so much for the good news of the gospel and much Of the good news of the gospel is lord that now you dwell among us and dwell with us and in us and that you will never

01:59:19

Believe us or forsake us and by your presence and strength and anointing

01:59:26

In our lives lord to be filled with you to be filled with your spirit we now

01:59:32

Are are convinced? Persuaded that we are children of god co -heirs with christ

01:59:39

And called and empowered to be ministers of the gospel ministers of reconciliation

01:59:45

Lord, we thank you for that and none of that is prayed nor spoken in arrogance But we're we're in awe that you would use common men to do

01:59:54

Um Literally miraculous things in proclaiming the gospel That in itself is is a true mystery to mankind and that's what thank you for that lord and I pray that we never lose in all

02:00:08

Of the majesty of the good news of jesus christ. So lord as people are hearing this tonight, we pray that They would also be in awe that god you have sovereignly set them still just for a moment

02:00:22

Maybe they just caught the end of robert's message right there just to hear the good news Lord, I pray that they would know that that is a miraculous work of your hand that they may know you and be drawn into you

02:00:33

And so we thank you for your promises that we've heard tonight. We thank you for your scripture We thank you.

02:00:39

Holy spirit that you are with us You are sealing us until the day of redemption and the hope that we have in that So we give you glory and pray in jesus name.

02:00:49

Amen. Amen. Amen Thank you big john for joining me, thank you pastor jonathan for joining me and pastor bishop big john

02:00:57

I need to call you by your correct titles. Thank you guys. Love you brothers Thank you all for watching the truth and love podcast and these new faces that join me tonight

02:01:07

Remember as always jesus is king go live in the victory of christ But speak with the authority of christ and continue to go out there and share the gospel of christ