Apologetics Open Q&A

Apologetics Live

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01:28

Oh, here I am talking the whole time and my mic is muted. Welcome to Apologetics Live.

01:35

All right, I had a muted mic. I've been out of the seat for a while and therefore, maybe

01:41

I'm just have to get used to things. Let me start that intro over again. Sorry for the dead air.

01:48

Welcome to Apologetics Live. This is where we answer all of your questions. Any questions you have about God and the

01:54

Bible, we can answer them here. And so, Drew says that I pulled an

02:01

Anthony. Wow, that's pretty insulting there, Drew. No, but I guess you're right.

02:08

I guess you're correct. All right, so Apologetics Live, go to ApologeticsLive .com.

02:14

That is the place to go to get all of your questions answered, that is what we are going to do here tonight.

02:21

This is an open Q &A, so anyone can come in, ask any questions. I am solo, so low that I couldn't raise my voice up.

02:31

No, I am the only host here tonight, so we will see how things go.

02:37

But as we begin, I will do some in the news segments. We may have somebody, we'll see, a heckler who came in, a heckler from online that had said he would come in, so we'll see if he joins us.

02:55

Went through reading his 300 -page book to prepare, so we'll see if that goes.

03:01

So in the news segment, and actually I guess I should give a, oh, wait,

03:09

Anthony Svestro is watching because he said, glad you joined the Tech Challenged side.

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For folks who may be new and don't know, it is usually our other host, Anthony, who is

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Tech Challenged, and usually every episode, and we mean every episode, something,

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I mean, he's got the equipment, it goes well. Oh, that's interesting, okay.

03:34

We did have our heckler came in, I just saw that he popped in, put a chat in the private chat, said,

03:41

I came, and then left the group. I don't know if that means he's not planning on, okay, at least he kept his word that he would show up.

03:51

Oh, it takes a lot to come on the show. Okay, it looks like he may be coming back, there we go.

03:58

Okay, so for a second there, I thought Joe was not gonna show up or just leave.

04:04

So Anthony's usually the one that's Tech Challenged, but this week, yes,

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I will count it though. I'll let you guys be the audience and see how many times

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I have kept, whether how many times I have been challenged here with technology versus Anthony.

04:23

We'll leave that for you guys to decide. Those who are regulars, I think we know the answer.

04:33

All right, so in the news section for you, a couple of things that I had noticed.

04:38

One, any podcaster out there, if you are a podcaster, you have a podcast, one of the big groups that have, a conference for podcasting called

04:50

Podcast Movement. I can no longer, as the

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Executive Director of Christian Podcast Community, will no longer recommend Podcast Movement for Christians or actually anyone conservative, in case you don't know what happened.

05:07

They had their event this week. They took money from Daily Wire. Daily Wire is a conservative news outlet of which they have several podcasts, one of which is

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Ben Shapiro, and Ben Shapiro being like one of the top -rated podcasts in the world, he had a booth at the

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Podcast Movement. Now, this should be a conference about podcasting.

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However, when the nerve of Ben Shapiro shows up to attend his own booth that he paid them to be there with, they were so offended they had to publicly, they had to ask him to leave and then publicly put an apology for the harm that it caused everybody.

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Now, what ended up happening is that they did, we were in contact with Daily Wire, and they tried to say that they, because Daily Wire responded to this and they didn't like that response, and they basically said that they do not allow any of the talent to show up when they have a booth.

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Yet, most of the people that speak are the talent and they have a booth. And so,

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Daily Wire basically said they wanted the post removed, and the response was that they don't, they're not a political organization, they are there to promote podcasting.

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Interesting, because when they were asked to remove that post by the Daily Wire, because it says that it caused harm to people having

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Ben Shapiro there, that they weren't gonna remove.

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And that is clearly political when you're claiming it does harm and damage just by his presence.

07:06

Now, we got a Facebook user that's saying, good morning, brothers. If you want to know how to get your name showing up so that we know who you are, that would be very nice for us.

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Just go to apologexlive .com, and the instructions are right there to get

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Facebook to allow you to, for us to see your name, which is very helpful instead of just referring to you as Facebook user.

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But good morning, Facebook user, I'm gonna assume you're somewhere on the other side of the world. One other thing in the news section that I wanted to talk about is something that I think is very, very serious, very concerning, at least for Americans.

07:49

Recently, there was the FBI that raided the previous president's home in search for documents.

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Now, according to President Trump, those documents are documents that he declassified.

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So coming in there to look for classified documents, the president can declassify whatever he wants.

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And so if he deemed them declassified, they are classified, and he wouldn't need to even lock them up.

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Now, one of the things that people are seeing is that these documents that they show pictures still have markings that say top secret or secret.

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Yes, that is exactly what happens with a declassified document. It will still have the markings.

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It will usually, they'll usually mark something over it. But typically, what documents that are top secret will have is actually a date.

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And it is automatically declassified at after usually 25 years.

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For some reason, whoever shot JFK, we can't know that. That had to be extended for longer.

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And so we have, oh, hey, we have Fabio. He says, hey, Andrew, this is Fabio. We met at Living Waters event this weekend.

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God bless you, brother. So, hey, great to meet you. I was at the Living Waters Ambassador Academy.

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It was a great event. We had a great time with all of the Academy students there.

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They were learning to do evangelism. I think that there were several who got a little bit of a surprise when

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I decided to open air. For those who know my voice, you know what they did not.

09:37

Several people thought that somebody was amplifying because they heard me quite a ways away.

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And so Drew is saying that the documents so classified by the FBI in the picture that they posted, correct.

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And what you saw there was a folder that some have where it would say secret or top secret.

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That would be a folder it was kept in. But the printed document would typically still have the markings because it was printed that way.

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Fabio was saying, your voice is crazy loud. Yes, there were several who,

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Dr. Svester, his team was with mine and he knew to back up when I got up there because he knows how loud

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I can get without amplification. And people were a little bit surprised by that.

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But why do I have such concern with this issue with what the

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FBI is doing with the previous president? First off, this has never been done in history. That is concerning.

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A second thing is the fact that at least according to President Trump, what he declassified and had was papers that show that the

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FBI had broken the law in illegally spying on him. That is very concerning if they went in and took documents that could prove their guilt.

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If the FBI is now being used as an arm of the government of a specific party, that becomes a very concerning thing.

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So that is the next step. Some of you who are regulars here, you know that I've been saying this for years with my background being

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Jewish and being raised after the Holocaust and having that training in Hebrew school of identifying the steps that someone goes through, a country goes through to get that, to become a state like the

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Nazis. We are at that point. When you have the government using an arm of the government being a police or law enforcement to enforce a specific party and to go after a previous president that is likely to run again,

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Joe Biden. There was a memo that showed that Joe Biden's administration did give the go ahead, which means that he is giving the go ahead to go and investigate his not only predecessor, but his probable opponent in the next election.

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This is basically trying to create a one party state. They're going after every one of Trump's lawyers to make it their life so miserable that they don't want to continue representing him.

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That becomes problematic because then you take away essentially his rights to be able to have a case heard because no lawyer will represent him.

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We see this going on in New York that the lawyers that won the case in the

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Supreme Court, which should be a win in their cap, they had been fired for winning their case.

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And that was the case with the gun rights. And that makes it harder for people who have want to fight the government over gun issues to be able to stand out with that.

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Now, let's see, Bill is saying this. He says, good evening from California whereby 2035 only electric cars will be sold, but can't plug in our electric cars from four to nine during flex alert.

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So what he's referring to is something that I had posted as well. California is forcing everyone to go to electric cars by 2035, but with their power grid not handling it, you can't, they just announced you're not allowed to plug your car in from four o 'clock to nine o 'clock because the power grid can't handle it.

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So that's concerning. Get everyone onto electric cars and then you can't use them because you got nowhere to go.

13:45

So I saw Joe is backstage, his camera's off. Let me bring Melissa in, because he is here.

13:52

Melissa, how are you this evening? Do you have any questions for us? Hi, Andrew. Yeah, I have one that I was thinking about.

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This is based on a conversation me and my mom had. She said when she was younger, when she had a different husband, she said that they're reading through the

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Old Testament and it like describes something, like a certain thing that happened.

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And then the husband said, oh, that's nasty. We're switching to the

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New Testament. So I was wondering, because the New Testament tells us not to be sexually immoral.

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I was wondering like, is because it's in the Bible, like the way it describes things, maybe such as like things like the

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Song of Solomon and other things, is it only appropriate because in the

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Bible? Because like, I would think like, yes, there's something that says if it was somewhere else she read it, like it'd be inappropriate.

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I'm not sure what he was referring to specifically. Oh, no, I know what he was saying.

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No, she said that it was, I don't know, it's kind of weird to say, but I'll just say what they said.

15:14

Well, I mean, but the point being is, I guess your question is, if the

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Bible says things, does that make it, would it be inappropriate? Is that your question?

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No, I said if it was anywhere else, it would be inappropriate, but because it's in the Bible, is it considered okay?

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Yeah. Like a sexual thing? Well, what we see in scripture, and you referred to Song of Solomon, there is references that are not, they're not explicit.

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So yes, they are describing something that sexual relations are described in Song of Solomon, but it is not done in an explicit way.

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And I know that when I pastored one church, we had one of the gentlemen who had a big problem with one of the words in the

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Song of Solomon. And so when we would read, we would, in that church, we would read through the

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Bible in the service, and he did not want the

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Song of Solomon read because there's a word that describes a female anatomy that he did not like, and he thought it inappropriate.

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Now, the question is, is that word appropriate or has it been hijacked?

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In other words, has it been used in our culture to have a negative view that it didn't have?

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In other words, there's certain words, there is a donkey mentioned. And if you read King James, it has a word for the donkey that in the time was not a bad word.

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But in our day, it is. So some translations have updated that, but is it wrong to read that?

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No. Well, that is what the word meant at that time. Yeah. It has a different connotation now, and therefore, my suggestion would be is use newer translations so we don't have that issue because our culture has morphed and really corrupted things.

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So I wouldn't say that we say it's just, the argument of saying it's just in the

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Bible, therefore, it's appropriate. In all others' cases, it wouldn't be.

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It's the case that we have to recognize that words have changed. I mean, the word gay, for example, I always use this as an example.

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FDR, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, president of the United States many years ago, was referred to as a very gay man.

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I don't think gay is homosexual. However, in his day, it only meant happy.

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He was saying he was a very happy individual. It wasn't, and if you know anything about FDR, you know it wasn't that he was a homosexual because he got in trouble with his wife because he was having affairs with other women.

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Now, it could be his wife. There was questions whether his wife had interests in men.

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But so Drew is saying here, could you say it's the difference between poetic literature versus erotic literature?

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And I think that would be a really good way of explaining it because what we see in the

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Song of Solomon and the Hebrew poetry is something where it is not being explicit on purpose, and it's something where it's using language that's poetic, figurative, and not explicit, not clear to where,

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I mean, it's nothing like, oh, what's the book? I forgot the book now that's in the kindergarten schools.

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It's a queer book. Literally, it's about homosexuality and talks explicitly about doing things sexually and having adults do things to children sexually.

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That is purposefully sexualized. Now, that's gonna be very different than something that is describing the beauty of love within a marriage.

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They're very different. And so we don't wanna allow the world to corrupt what is beautiful, though they try.

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And so I think what we do is we need to explain the differences and truthfully, anything we have in the

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Bible is mild compared to what we see in culture in America, for sure.

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But I think sometimes people try to make excuses by saying, well, this is in the Bible, therefore, the erotic stuff is okay, too.

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And if people are doing that, then that's a problem. Yeah, that's a good, yeah, good answer.

20:03

Do you mind if I plug my show before I go? Sure, go ahead. Okay, I have a show called

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Truth Be Told Radio and you can check it out, truthbetoldradio .com is the website. And it's on Sundays, usually 2 p .m.

20:16

to 4 p .m., but sometimes I do it a little bit later, but it's around then on Sundays. Are you still on Blog Talk?

20:23

Yeah, Blog Talk Radio. Wow, okay. Yeah, I've been on that for like several years. I think 2009, maybe?

20:30

Yeah, you were an early adopter, where you had to account. It was before, it's like before everybody was podcasting,

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I was podcasting. Yeah, before that was a thing, and back when you started, they offered it free for life, and so you got in early.

20:46

Oh, oh, I didn't get the free for life. No, you didn't, oh. No, no. But you were in early enough. That's too bad, yeah.

20:52

Unless they just start charging, because I know they were having to start charging people, but well, thank you.

20:58

My mom pays for my show, she's my sponsor. Yep, I hope you thank her.

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Yeah, I do. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for coming, Melissa. Bye. All right, so I don't know if Joe is there.

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He's not on camera. Oh, there he is. Okay, so let me bring Joe in.

21:19

All right, Joe, can you hear me okay? Yeah, I can hear, can you hear my voice? Yeah, so you went outside, so now you look, we just have the silhouette of you.

21:32

Okay. Actually, I'm under guard, and this is near to the

21:37

Wi -Fi. Ah, well, near to the Wi -Fi is good. So let me set this up for folks, and I wanna give you a chance to explain your view.

21:46

I put a quote out, and I'm just gonna look at this. I put a quote out from John Calvin. It said, it is the quote, hell reigns wherever there is no peace with God, unquote,

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John Calvin. And there was lots of different responses, but you had a response.

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You jumped in on it and said, and Calvin takes away the peace by teaching saints, by teaching saints are under the obligation to keep law.

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And we were going back and forth. You basically told me to look up Luther's view of his commentary on Galatians 3, which

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I didn't get a chance to do. You sent me your book, which is, what is this? 303 pages long that I spent today reading.

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And so I first wanna ask you, before I get into you giving your view of this, it did confuse me, and you and I talked about this a little bit privately.

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The book is authored, and the way it's authored is by an

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S, pronounce your last name so I don't mispronounce it. Jonathan Bidja Chalt.

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Okay. Bidja. Bidja Chalt is the first name, Bidja Chalt is the last name,

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Chalt is the first name. And you're close to the wifi, and you're digitizing, that's not good.

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Can you get - Yes, I can. Jonathan is the first name, Bidja is the last name,

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Chalt is the - Can you hear? Can you hear me okay?

23:31

Yeah, I can hear you. Okay, you're digitizing, so either we don't have, either you gotta get closer to your wifi.

23:45

Well, it's not a matter of not hearing you, it's that the internet is not strong, your internet's not strong enough, maybe with sending the video, you might have to turn your video off if we can't.

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Oh, I can't see your video properly, I can hear your voice also.

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Yeah, it's just that we can't hear you, you're sounding like a robot. Oh, really?

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Yeah, because the internet is there, maybe try turning the video off, and we'll just, because we're getting that distortion you get when you don't have a strong internet signal, so it's not that we can't hear you.

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No, I can hear your voice, but I don't know why it's happening. Yeah. There we go, let's -

24:31

I can't hear my voice. Okay, try speaking a little bit longer. Can you hear my voice now?

24:39

Yeah, although there's still a little distortion, so we'll have to see. We'll see how this works.

24:45

So one of the things I thought interesting with this was you titled your author as the author page, and I'll share it so people can see what

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I'm talking about. It's written by Jonathan Baidja, if I pronounced that right?

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Baidja, B -A -I -D -J -A, yeah. Okay, so it looks, this looks like it was authored by two people,

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Jonathan Baidja and Charles Spurgeon, which got me curious. I was like, whoa, Charles Spurgeon wrote this.

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But you said Charles Spurgeon's your middle name, which confused me because usually a middle name goes in the middle.

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So I'm just curious. I have two points of curiosity before we get into context. Why did you put your name as Jonathan Baidja, Charles Spurgeon, when it should really be

25:41

Jonathan's Charles Spurgeon Baidja? I don't know the order generally in India.

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Actually, my name was like Bidja, Jonathan, Charles Spurgeon. First comes the last name, and then the first name and the middle name.

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So I don't know this order, but I just put Jonathan Bidja, Charles Spurgeon. Just use my name for my advantage.

26:04

That's it, yeah. Yeah, and that was what I was thinking, was that you were using it to your advantage.

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Now, Spurgeon, as you and I talked, Spurgeon was a Calvinist, and your dad was a

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Calvinist. You're not a Calvinist, I guess. You're more Lutheran from our conversations.

26:23

No, no, no, not necessarily. I mean, I don't know in which box you put me, but I do believe in the doctrine of election and total depravity and all those stuff.

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I do believe. It's not like Lutherans. I don't think Lutherans believe in election, most of them.

26:41

Yeah, well, I think they would, but... Okay, so that answered one question, and let me go to...

26:50

I'm very curious about this page. This is the dedication. I am really...

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I'm gonna assume the best and figure that you have just a typo, or...

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But are you, when you say dedicated to the Savior of Lord Jesus Christ and his servants, are you implying that the

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Lord Jesus Christ is in need of a Savior? Oh, then say me.

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Do Lord Jesus Christ called, said that,

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I am going to my father and your father, my God and your God.

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I don't think Savior is using, saying my

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Savior is greater than calling my God, right? If you can call someone my Savior, and if you call someone my

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God, which one is great? My God is great, right? So I'm saying,

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I put that word because Father is the one who promised that he is going to make his enemies his footstool, right?

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And Jesus, if you read in Psalm 22, he prayed

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Father to save him from the death and from the enemies. It's not, I mean, it's just your conscious that tricking you to see it as some, is it a heresy or something like that?

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It is, that word make, I know that word makes you in your conscious a little bit uncomfortable.

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I know that. I put that because I just want to give praise to the

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Father, to the God, that's it. Okay, but there is, there's a distinct difference in saying to the -

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See, Lord Jesus is the King of the saints. Imagine, he sits on the throne of David and his people are like Israel.

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His saints are like Israel. Then who is the one that going to behind, that is the one who is behind the

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Lord Jesus is the Father. His Father is the one. Yeah, I understand there's a difference with the

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Father and the Son. What I'm asking is, does Jesus in your mind need a savior? No, in what sense you are saying?

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Like, I mean, you should not, I know that did pricks, you should not remove the humanity of Christ from him just by,

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I mean, it pricks you, this guy, what he's saying. I put that it because he,

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Father is his savior. He saved him from death. He raised him from death. Do you remove that word in the scripture?

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That Father raised him from dead with his mighty power? I mean, I know that - Do you wanna remove that? No, right?

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Paul will say in like 1 Timothy, our

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God, our savior and of Jesus Christ, our hope. Yeah, he's our savior.

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He's Lord Jesus savior and our savior. Lord Jesus is the salvation of God unto the ends of the earth.

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The salvation comes from Father through Lord Jesus. So calling the

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Father as a savior is not a wrong word. He says, there is no savior beside me.

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Okay, so I'm curious then, and I know this is off topic, but just in this, I actually thought that it was just a typo, and I knew you're from India, and I was just,

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I was actually thinking it was gonna be something that I let you know that you might wanna say dedicated to the savior and Lord Jesus Christ, but you meant that to be that God the

31:06

Father is a savior to Jesus Christ? Is that correct? Yeah, Lord Jesus Christ and his people.

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Okay, I know how God would be a savior to us human beings. In what sense then do you see him as the savior of Jesus Christ?

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Because he is Father, he is the one who created all things by him, who is the one who sent

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Lord Jesus into the world to save us. He is the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead and seated on his right hand, who is the one who is going to make his enemies his foes too.

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And Lord Jesus calls him savior. Save me from, if you read the

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Psalms 22, he clearly says, right? Save me from this and that.

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So then it's not wrong thing to call him a savior.

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I mean, I don't understand why your conscience is steered up with those words.

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I know that it will steer up, but I just put that so that I can give the glory and praise to the

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God. Okay, are you, just because as we're having the conversation it's causing me to have some questions.

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Are you saying, so let me ask this. Is Jesus sinless? Yeah. Yeah, he did not sin, right?

32:34

Okay, so God didn't save him from sin. No, saving is not only confined to the sin.

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He can save from enemies. He can save from death. He can save from other things. It's just a word, you know?

32:50

Yeah. So, and like Fabio says, I'll ask his question for him. Why would

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God the son need to be saved from God the father? We are the sinners, not him.

33:02

I'm confused. No, no, no, no. The context is different.

33:07

I'm not saying Lord Jesus Christ need to be saved from his father. God, I'm saying he's going to save his people through Lord Jesus.

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I mean, who else is behind the Lord Jesus? Who is the power and who is the one behind the

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Lord Jesus is the father, right? But they're within the same

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Godhead. And so I don't think of, you know,

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I don't think of Jesus having needed a savior. For example, when he was on the cross, he said he would raise himself from the dead.

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He didn't, I mean, the father rose him from the dead. The spirit rose him from the dead. They're all involved in his resurrection.

33:52

Yeah, all that's true. But what I'm saying is I gave praise to the father because the book

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I wrote is in context to father's making his enemies his footstool.

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So I gave praise to the father who is going to make his enemies, means

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Christ's enemies, his footstool. He promised that and he's going to keep that. So I chose to praise father for that.

34:25

And it's not any big issue. I'm not saying saving is, you're saying saving is something, it's not confined only to sin or any particular thing.

34:35

Saving can be any, save from anything. Yeah, and that's what, I guess

34:40

I just wanted, before we get started, clarify how you mean that Jesus needs a savior.

34:47

But we'll move on. And let me just, let me answer one question real quick here from Kyle.

34:53

Kyle says, Dr. Andrew, you look restored physically. Well, two things with this, Kyle. First off, I'm not a doctor, at least not yet.

35:01

But I did see many doctors. I am doing better physically. I am in great amount of pain though, even right now.

35:10

Folks who don't know, I was in an ATV accident, broke a rib and fractured another, punctured a lung.

35:18

So I was out in California doing open air evangelism, which forced me to use my lungs.

35:24

Basically, speaking is painful, but it's good for me, is what the doctor said, because it forces me to breathe in and to use my full breath.

35:35

So I was out and using my voice, which shocked, as Fabio has said, shocked some folks.

35:46

But yeah, so Chris Honholds just says about that wording, he says, sounds very poor usage of the word and just, it is confusing.

35:55

It might be something you may wanna think of, the way some people may react to that in that.

36:04

So let's get into, what I wanna do is give you a chance to explain your view and why you believe

36:13

Calvin puts people under the law, which

36:19

I find interesting because everything I know of Calvin and his teaching would be the opposite.

36:27

And so I wanna give you a chance to explain, but I'm gonna say that this isn't an opportunity to do a sermon because I wanna interact with you.

36:37

So I'm gonna, I'll stop you at points where I want clarification, but I want you to try to be as concise and as brief as possible.

36:45

You know, I know you have written 300 pages on this, but so having read that,

36:53

I'd like you to be, try and be as concise as possible. So if you could explain your view.

36:59

Okay, when I say living under the law, I am saying means living in your conscious, subconscious, and judging your thoughts, actions, and deeds according to the standard of the law.

37:14

Living under the law, that's what I meant. And then alive under the law means also that your conscious will be alive to the standard, not the human interpretation of the standard of the law, but the actual high standard of the moral law of God.

37:33

Okay, so that's the thing. So, yeah. Let me first ask, when you're using the word law, because there's different usages for law, when you're using law, because you're saying that -

37:47

Yeah, I will give you the definition of the law. Law means all the 10 commandments, and all that is related to the 10 commandments, both in Old Testament and in the

37:59

Sermon on Mount, and in other gospels, and then in epistles, everything that is a moral law, which is some way or the other way tied to the 10 commandments.

38:10

That's a moral law. So, you're limiting it to the 10 commandments then?

38:16

No, no, no. 10 commandments, from that, everything springs. Allow thy neighbor, from that, everything's, give charity, everything comes that.

38:26

And even Sermon on Mount also, it also comes under the law.

38:32

All that is morality, what is right and what is wrong, evil and good. Yeah, it's all two.

38:39

Two thoughts with that. I mean, first off, Jesus actually put the, he had it reversed.

38:44

He said that the law comes out of love God, love your neighbor.

38:50

Yeah. That became, so the moral law, the 10 commandments come from that.

38:56

But when you're just saying that which is right and wrong. Yeah, that shows what is right and wrong.

39:03

Yeah, but - The law reveals what it's, if you are doing something, it shows that you are doing something wrong. It's in our conscious, right?

39:10

Yeah. But every law is moral. I mean, that's what a law is.

39:17

If there's a law - Yeah, but I mean, because these people have some, I just, I use moral because they segregate into civil law, civil law, and then land disputes, and all other things like ceremonial law.

39:31

Say, suppose ceremonial law is there, civil law is there, moral law is there. Just I'm saying, when

39:36

I use the law, it's about the morality, which moral law, which you feel if you do something wrong, you will be pricked in your conscious.

39:46

It tells you you are doing wrong. That's what I meant law there. Okay, and I know we're spending a little bit of time on this, but it's essential to, throughout your book, it becomes very important to understand how law is being used, because I don't,

40:04

I do not break up the law by ceremonial, civil, and moral, because that's not how the

40:12

Bible breaks it up. We don't see that distinction. And in fact, I would say people would be hard -pressed to try to figure out which of the 614 laws are in which of those categories.

40:26

People will always say the Ten Commandments is in the moral law. Some people limit it only to the Ten Commandments, but from a

40:33

Jewish perspective, the laws, these are holiness laws. These are laws of -

40:39

Yeah, yeah, they are there, ceremonial law, like washing and all those stuff are there.

40:44

What I'm saying is the law was written, given to Jews in a written format, but Gentiles also have law.

40:53

They have, that is ingrained in their conscious. When Paul writes to Galatians, before you came to Christ, you are under law.

41:01

He's not saying they are under the Jewish law. They never, they were never under the

41:07

Jewish law. The law is in their conscious. That's what

41:12

Paul was referring to, either in Galatians or in Romans. When he's talking to Gentiles, he's not referring to the

41:19

Jewish 600 laws. He's saying the law in the conscious. So let me use some different language and see if we're in agreement.

41:30

And then if we are, we can then use language that we know we're in agreement. I refer to universal law, laws for the nation of Israel, laws for the church.

41:42

So what I mean by universal, let me give you a, for instance, I think that on the seventh day of creation,

41:48

God created, had a law for all human beings universally about a

41:54

Sabbath, that they should take one day off from working, a day that should be devoted to worship, but that they work for six days, rest for one.

42:03

That is universal for all people. However, when Moses came along,

42:09

God had specific laws for the nation of Israel. That was for the nation, not for the

42:14

Gentiles, that had more on top of that, which said, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can do this.

42:21

And that was for the nation of Israel. And there's laws that are for that nation that don't apply to the

42:27

Gentiles. And then after Christ, there became laws that were specific for the church.

42:34

For example, we see the nine of the 10 commandments reiterated in the

42:39

New Testament, we don't see the Sabbath because it's already a universal law from the seventh day of creation.

42:47

I would say we are all still under that. No, he says, do not anyone judge you for Sabbath or full moon days.

42:54

He said that Sabbath or full moon days or anything like that. The thing is, the law is there, it came into existence upon human conscious from the time when

43:08

Adam and Eve ate the fruit, which gives them knowledge of good and evil.

43:13

That's from, it stems from that time, even before Moses. People knew that doing certain thing was wrong.

43:22

When say, suppose when he said about Rebekah, if somebody from us might have slept with her, you would have brought such an evil thing on us, something like that, right?

43:41

You know, certain thing, doing certain thing is wrong intuitively because it is that law is ingrained in the human conscious even before the

43:50

Moses. But when he gave it through the Moses, he gave it in a literal format, do this, do that, do that.

43:58

It's a written format he gave, what was there. So when I say

44:04

Calvin is asking, teaching people,

44:10

I mean, not all, because when I say this, I'm saying all humans by nature are under the law after they come into age, certain age, like 12 years or 13 years, when they know what is right, what is wrong, what is left or right.

44:25

So at that age, from that age, every human beings are born under the law and they will live under the law until the day they die.

44:34

When they go into the dominion of death, then law doesn't speak to them. Until that time, all humans are under that law.

44:42

So when I say Calvin is placing them under the law, means Calvin is teaching them,

44:49

I mean, teaching to saints, although you are already believed, you are saved, you are partakers of death and resurrection of Christ, you are still under the law and you are in an obligation to keep the law.

45:05

That's what he's teaching. That's a problem there. So you're saying, and I wanna clarify, make sure

45:14

I understand, you're saying that as believers, we no longer are under the law, meaning no right and wrong.

45:26

No right and wrong judgment upon your conscious.

45:31

So law has no authority to judge your conscious. It has no right to condemn your conscious, like all the people, because you are not under its dominion.

45:46

Because you are dead with Christ, law doesn't have authority to speak the dead.

45:54

As a believer, are you saying that someone, a believer can go sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not under the law anymore?

46:05

Yeah, this question naturally comes. Paul also has to say, shall we sin because we are not under the law?

46:11

It's not the sin part. You see, if scripture teaches. Oh, and he dropped.

46:20

I think he'll come back in. But while he's not here, I'll get to some comments that were made.

46:28

Captain Black Eagle said, when we were talking about the new section, he said, if it wasn't for Jesus, I would be afraid, but I have no fear with Jesus.

46:38

And that is the thing. As believers, we don't have to fear what our government is doing. John Myers says, hey,

46:46

Andrew, I'm glad you're feeling better, bro. Been praying for you. I may be able to join here if the

46:52

Lord wills. Well, I hope you do, because if Joe doesn't come back, we're just gonna have to go to other questions.

47:00

So let me address some of the questions that did come up. We were talking about the Sabbath and Captain Black Eagle said,

47:07

Jesus is our Sabbath. And Melissa Bonser for Jesus said, it's Sabbaths, not

47:13

Sabbath. And that is something that we could look at is as we look at that, that's in Colossians.

47:21

I forget if it's one or two, I think it's two. Let's see.

47:28

Yeah, two, trying to find it.

47:33

I wanna say 2 .15, but it wasn't that either. There is, so it refers to,

47:42

Paul in Colossians will say, will speak about not holding people to festivals or Sabbaths and the

47:51

Sabbaths are plural in that passage. And one of the things a lot of people don't know is that there's more than one

48:00

Sabbath. Sabbath just means seven. And so when we look at that, just trying to find it real quick,

48:10

Colossians 2 .16 is what it is. All right, so Colossians 2 .16. And what that says is, therefore let no one pass judgment on you in question to food or drink or regard to festival or new moon or Sabbath.

48:26

And that is a plural. So it should be Sabbaths. And so what

48:32

Melissa was pointing out is correct. And the point there is that there is several

48:38

Sabbaths that you have. Each of the high holy days, each of the holidays would be a Sabbath, a day of rest.

48:45

You have the seventh year is a Sabbath. That's a day, a year of rest where you let the land rest.

48:54

So it just means seven, but you can have multiple ideas of it, but it is the idea of a period of rest.

49:03

And so in the context of food and drink, which is the issues that they're raising with the holiness laws that Israel kept that the

49:12

Gentiles did not, with the festivals, the new moon, the Jewish festivals, the new moon, the

49:20

Gentiles would celebrate, and then the Sabbaths. This is saying that we don't judge one another.

49:26

These laws that were for the nation of Israel, the food and drink and Sabbath days were now over.

49:34

And actually in Mark, Jesus said, Jesus ended up saying that he declared, it says that he declared all food clean in Mark, and that was before he rose from the dead.

49:50

So one of the things a lot of people don't understand is that the food and clothing laws for Israel were to keep them separate from the nations to keep the line for Messiah pure.

50:03

So once Messiah was born, there wasn't a need for the laws of separation to keep the line.

50:12

Now we could still argue the laws are necessary for separation from the world. We still need to be holy, but the laws

50:20

I would say that were specific to Christ, that we don't need those.

50:26

So Joe is back. So, oh, no,

50:32

Joe's back again twice. Here we go. You're in here. Yeah, I just chose a mobile network.

50:39

This wifi is not working properly. Okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, no problem. So the issue of when you're saying the law,

50:49

I mean, to tell somebody who is a believer that they should not sleep with a prostitute, of course, you go to the crazy examples, but it makes it clearer.

51:02

No, no, no, it doesn't make crazy because it is not about his conscious.

51:12

The conscious, Allah has no authority to condemn his conscious. The thing is, he is no more under the sin also.

51:22

When you are dead with Christ, you are dead under the law, dead under the sin. You don't need law to tell you because all those people who are sleeping with the prostitutes, do you say they are not under the law?

51:36

All the human being? No, they are under the law. Those who are under the law only do those things. But you are mistaken.

51:43

You agree that there's a universal law for all human beings, correct? Yeah, yeah, universal law is there.

51:51

And that law actually helps the sin to overtake humans because the sin,

51:59

Paul wrote, sin uses the commandment, which is holy, to produce all manner of concubines in my mind so that I will be carried away to do sin.

52:10

So when you say being not under the law makes you honorable to do sin, it's not true because sin has no edge over you when you are not under the law, but sin will have edge over you when you are under the law.

52:28

That's what I'm saying. When law is operating on your conscious, it telling you, don't do this, don't do this, that's when sin becomes more powerful on you than when law is silent.

52:38

That's what I'm saying. Okay, so I think

52:43

I heard you say something and I wanna make sure that I don't misrepresent you.

52:49

It sounded like you said what makes sin sinful in a sense, what makes sin bad is its effect on us?

53:01

The law makes sin more sinful and law also help,

53:10

I mean, sin uses the law just like satan go, I mean, serpent go to the

53:15

Eve and ask him, do you really can eat all these trees? I mean, you don't need, you should not eat the fruit of all these trees.

53:25

He is picking from the Eve a specific commandment. Then Eve comes, you should not eat this particular tree.

53:34

Then he uses that commandment to deceive her and to put all the concupiscence and the desire toward that which is forbidden.

53:44

So the sin uses which is forbidden by law to bring all manner of evil desires in human beings.

53:52

That's how sin operates on human beings using the law. Therefore, when I say you are not under the law in your conscious, sin will not have that much edge on those who are consciously dead to the law.

54:07

That those who are consciously alive to the law. So you will have more, sin will have more edge on those who put their conscious and strive to be at the standard of the law.

54:22

They will have more problems. Okay, so Joe, I'm gonna try something with you because this is like the second or third time

54:28

I've asked you what I think is a simple yes or no. And you have a long answer that never actually answers the question.

54:38

So let me try it again. And it really is just, it's a yes or no type of question.

54:45

Okay, tell me what is that? Okay, so is, when you're saying -

54:54

Is a saint or believer can go and sleep with a prostitute? That's the question, right? Well, that was two questions ago, but yes.

55:01

Okay, okay, okay. So if a saint or a person, he can do without,

55:11

I mean, with faith, he can do that. If he can't do without faith, he should not do because without faith, everything is sin.

55:20

Are you saying that if he - So yeah, so if you say Prophet Hosea, he did that.

55:29

Some other people might have done that, like Samuel or other, Samson or other. But the thing is, the thing is that at the end of the day, he is doing with the right conscience, he has the faith.

55:46

Are you doing with faith or without doing with faith? Yo, hold on one second. You are using, you know, you are using that just to prove because I'm saying

55:57

I'm not under the law, therefore I'm telling people to go and sleep with the prostitutes or the some.

56:04

Then the thing is not, it's not like that. I don't wanna have to mute you, but I will. Because it's not according to the nature.

56:10

What is their nature? Okay, I - Can sheep go and kill people, you are saying? You say, yeah, he can go and kill people, but he does, in reality, he doesn't do that because it's not his nature.

56:23

Joe? Yeah. I don't wanna mute you, but I will if you keep going. We wanna have a dialogue, which means you can't talk over me when

56:33

I'm trying to say things, all right? Okay, okay. I can't do it with you. It can happen because there is, you know, the way that I understand.

56:41

But first I gotta correct, Hosea did not sleep with a prostitute.

56:48

He married - I know that, but he had to marry some adult or something like that.

56:55

We can't talk over each other because then people hear nothing, right? Yeah. Okay, so Hosea married a woman who then prostituted herself.

57:07

That does not justify sleeping with a prostitute. So -

57:13

No, no, give me the answer. You asking me that question because you are saying, can a believer sin because he is under the law?

57:25

You ask the same question which Paul has answered. How can we do? We are dead unto the sin.

57:31

That's the answer, Paul's answer and my answer. You are asking me the same again and again that question.

57:39

I said, he can do that. He can do anything. Believer can do anything with faith.

57:46

Ultimately, it's God who is going to judge. It's not the world, not the law. So if he sleeps with a prostitute but has faith in doing it, then it's okay?

57:58

Yeah, it's okay. Okay, I'm gonna ask this again because I want to make sure that I heard you correctly.

58:06

Yeah, it's okay. If he does, he can do that with faith.

58:13

Wow, okay. Are you - But he will not do, it's a different thing because he acts according to his nature which is not doing that.

58:24

Just like lamb doesn't kill humans. Okay, so you're saying that as long as we have faith, whatever we do in faith is not sin?

58:40

Yes. Okay, are you familiar with Gnosticism at all? No. Okay, what you're teaching is

58:50

Gnosticism and it's actually what the entire book of Colossians and 1

58:55

John are condemning. Okay, Gnosticism was the belief that people had an enlightened knowledge.

59:06

That's what Gnosticism means, it's knowledge. That they had an enlightened knowledge and that anything physical is evil but anything spiritual is good and the example that would be used is, and that's why

59:24

I ended up asking this example, they argued in that day that you could sleep with a prostitute as long as you didn't give your spirit over to it and it was okay.

59:35

No, no, no, no. I know where you're coming. The thing is that having same words doesn't mean this and then is a different.

59:45

Enlightenment is also is in the Bible. Paul says you are enlightened and if you follow the way and in Colossians he said you are enlightened.

59:55

The thing is, it's not the, I am not talking that thing. The thing is

01:00:00

I'm talking about the conscious and the law. You use the word can we do sin because we are not under the law.

01:00:09

So I just said. Was sin. Yeah, I said that whatever the believer has the ability to do all things.

01:00:18

Luther also said believer has a free to do all things. He is not under the law.

01:00:26

Therefore that you can use crazy stuff. Can you go and kill a thousand people or anything like that?

01:00:34

It doesn't make any sense. Okay, so yeah, I'm starting to see why you have issues with what

01:00:43

Calvin taught but I'm surprised because Luther is gonna disagree with you vehemently as well.

01:00:49

But the thing that I look at with this is let me explain what sin is and what makes sense.

01:01:01

Okay, and then how does that apply to unbelievers?

01:01:10

Because. They're not under the law. Yeah, no, they are under the law. That's what

01:01:15

I'm saying from the beginning. All humans are under the law. On the day God will judge according to their thoughts in the conscious.

01:01:24

Their law tells them this is wrong but they do that. They will be judged because it told you you are doing something wrong but they anyway go and do that what is wrong.

01:01:35

They will be judged for that. But you even. Yeah, that's what Paul said in Romans first and second chapters.

01:01:42

All humans are under the law. Otherwise he wouldn't say the Galatians you are under the law before you came to Christ.

01:01:49

All humans are under the law. That's the thing I'm saying from the beginning. All humans are under the law.

01:01:55

Okay. And they will be under the law until they die. Yet you even quoted Paul in saying that unbelievers are not under the law.

01:02:04

No, no, no. I never said that. I said that all humans are under the law until they die because law comes from the time when

01:02:13

Adam and Eve eat the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit, I mean the fruit of the tree.

01:02:20

The law operates on all human conscious until they die. Even the worst evil sinner who never heard about Christ knowing his conscious what he's doing right and what he's doing wrong.

01:02:34

Okay. He may not have clear or the standard of the law but he will have that light in him.

01:02:40

What is right, what is wrong. The knowledge of good and evil is operating on all human conscious, which is the law.

01:02:48

Okay. So let me explain it this way. What makes sin, sin is not its effect.

01:02:56

And that was one of the earlier questions I asked you is if it's the effect on human beings, it's not.

01:03:02

It's the nature of God. That is the standard. So why is lying wrong?

01:03:08

Because God's not a liar. Why is stealing wrong? Because God is not a thief. It's the -

01:03:14

Yeah, law is the standard of God, right? Joe, when - He is the standard of the God. Okay. Joe, when

01:03:20

I'm speaking, please don't speak over me. Okay. I don't think

01:03:25

I'm doing that with you. I'm asking for the same respect. Is that fair? Okay.

01:03:31

Okay. Thank you. So what makes sin sinful is that it goes against the nature of God.

01:03:42

And those attributes that God has given to man that were made in the likeness of God, meaning we have certain attributes that God has, we have those attributes.

01:03:55

And within that, within what he created, we have a knowledge, a conscience that reveals to us right and wrong.

01:04:03

That conscience can be seared, okay? So we can desensitize ourselves to sinful behavior and our conscience can say wrong is right and feel justified in that.

01:04:18

That doesn't make it right. What makes it right or wrong is the nature of God.

01:04:26

And so whether we're a believer or not, wrong is always going to be wrong.

01:04:33

It is always going to be wrong to lie, to steal, to murder, to sleep with a prostitute.

01:04:40

That is going to be wrong because it's outside the nature of God. That's what makes it wrong.

01:04:46

That doesn't matter whether we're a believer or unbeliever. And if, so it sounds like you're saying that where Calvin is putting people back under the law is because you're saying that Calvin taught people to obey

01:05:03

God. It is - Okay, let me, can

01:05:09

I answer now? Yeah. Say, what you are saying is creation brought into the humans what is right and wrong.

01:05:20

It is absolutely wrong because God didn't create, the day when

01:05:25

God created Adam and Eve, they don't have the knowledge of good and evil until they eat the fruit from the tree.

01:05:33

So it's wrong that it's came by the creation itself. It's not, it came after that.

01:05:40

And then other thing is that when I say Calvin is putting under the law,

01:05:45

I'm saying he's putting them, their conscious under the law.

01:05:51

Say, suppose how many of you live a life without your conscious condemning you, you are not feeling guilty or you are feeling you've done wrong or doing something wrong for a week.

01:06:05

Tell me, can you live for one week like that? Well -

01:06:10

Without feeling guilty, unconscious, without feeling I'm doing something wrong, all right. Cancel your conscious, tell me.

01:06:17

They can because - They can if they're desensitized to it, if they've convinced -

01:06:23

No, no, no, no, no. I just ask a direct question. Are you living without feeling guilty, conscious, or pricked in the conscious, you are doing something wrong or something not, which is correct, without your conscious condemning you, your heart's condemning you?

01:06:40

Can anyone say I can live for a month without such a thing? And I just - Honestly, answer me directly, yes or no?

01:06:47

I answered it directly. If you try listening instead of talking over me, you'd hear my direct answer because I just explained what sin is and you explained an opposite to it, which says you're not really listening,

01:07:01

Joe. So I want you to listen. The direct answer, can someone live for a month without feeling pricked in their conscience?

01:07:10

Yes, if they have so desensitized themselves to where they convince themselves that wrong is right, when they think that everything they do in faith is right, then yes, you have a bunch of people, even those that claim to be

01:07:28

Christian, they call themselves sinless perfectionists. They believe they never sin.

01:07:34

And when they do wrong, they don't think it's wrong. They justify it and convince themselves they're right.

01:07:41

So can people? Yes. Now, let me redefine, because you mischaracterized what

01:07:47

I had said sin is. I didn't say it started with creation. It started with -

01:07:54

No, I said, you said right and wrong came and because the

01:07:59

God's nature is what is right, he is right. So for the God created them so they'd have the what is right and what is wrong.

01:08:07

You said that. Yeah, but it didn't come as part of creation. Yeah. It's from the nature of God, which is eternal, okay?

01:08:20

No, if that is true, they would have known at that time they were naked.

01:08:26

God had the knowledge of good and evil, right? They would have known before eating the food, they already know they are naked.

01:08:34

If they have that from the creation. No, what makes it sin is going against the nature of God so when

01:08:44

God instructed them not to eat of one piece of fruit, they sinned when they ate of it, but the law is still there.

01:08:54

The sin is still there because anything against the nature of God is sin.

01:09:02

So no, it's not when they ate of the fruit. That's when they, Adam and Eve, were conscious of what they did wrong, but right and wrong, justice and injustice still existed because it's from the nature of God.

01:09:18

So it's eternal. Okay, so then you are created a new means, they are created in Christ because the old creation has passed away after the resurrection.

01:09:36

I mean, if they partake in the resurrection of the Christ through spirit, then they are a new creation and they are walking according to the creation.

01:09:44

That's what I'm saying. They are not under the law. The whole law is given to show what is right and wrong, what is sin, but they pass from that dominion.

01:09:54

They don't come under that again. So what you are saying is not like somebody is striving to be like that by keeping the law, therefore, the law is necessary upon their conscience.

01:10:11

It's not right because the fundamental why law was given is for condemnation.

01:10:17

It's not for justification. No matter if you are a apostle, you are a prophet, it only condemns you.

01:10:23

It doesn't justify that something you are doing is right. The first, the most purpose of the law is to condemn.

01:10:32

It's not for justification. Therefore, it always condemns you. Well, that's not exactly true.

01:10:41

Because - That's not true, that's what Paul says, right? Okay, the word law, you have a mistake you're doing.

01:10:50

It's a logical fallacy called a fallacy of equivocation. You're taking the word law, using it different ways in different scenarios and mixing them together, okay?

01:11:02

This is why precision matters. Law is not always condemning. There is law that reveals that we can't keep the law so that it means to miss the mark.

01:11:15

It is the idea to reveal to us that we need a savior because we're guilty, we break his law.

01:11:21

But there's also laws that separate. They separate the

01:11:27

Israelites from the world. That doesn't condemn Israel. Those are laws of separation.

01:11:33

That's not condemnation. Breaking those laws, okay, would put them, is only

01:11:41

Israel in that position, not everybody. Okay, yeah.

01:11:47

So - Can I answer now? Go ahead, go ahead and ask the question. So when

01:11:53

I'm discussing about the law, I'm primarily discussing about the word law mentioned in New Testament, particularly

01:12:01

Epistles of Paul and in other places. When I say law, I am saying about the moral aspect of the law, about what is right and what is wrong, under which all human beings are under, all human hearts and conscious are subjected under to that.

01:12:21

Therefore, when I say I am not talking about the ceremonial law, Jews keeping

01:12:26

Sabbath or circumcision, or like any other aspects of the law, I am only talking about the moral law and its effect upon human conscious and how it helps the sin and how a believer can live without condemnation in the conscious before God through faith in Christ.

01:12:50

That's my whole aspect of talking, you know? That's what I'm talking about. I get that you're saying that.

01:12:56

The problem is you keep quoting Paul where he's using it different than you're using it. And that's the problem.

01:13:03

You can't quote Paul when he's referring to the laws to Israel and quote him there and then apply it to your use of the law.

01:13:14

That's the equivocation, the fallacy of equivocation you're doing. Because you're saying only the New Testament usage.

01:13:20

Well, Paul is using it the way that I just said in the passage you quoted.

01:13:26

And so you can't turn and say, okay, we're gonna use it.

01:13:32

I'm using it this way, but I'm gonna quote Paul who uses it differently because then you're taking Paul out of context.

01:13:41

So the thing is, I mean, more concerning to me than what our original discussion was as far as Calvin's use of the law is this idea that you believe that we can violate the nature of God, but if we say we have faith, it's okay.

01:14:06

That is concerning because that would say that if you believe that, then you believe that people with a desensitized conscience because they've told themselves wrong is right long enough, but they think they're doing it in faith.

01:14:24

They think they're doing it in spirit and it's okay. Okay. Okay, let me tell you, when

01:14:30

Paul said I am dead unto the law so that I can live unto

01:14:36

God, what he means is when he was talking to the Peter in second Galatians, what he means is

01:14:42

I am dead in my conscious to the laws, to the law, which says don't do this, don't do that.

01:14:52

I am dead unto that so that I can live by faith in Christ who loved me and gave himself for me so that I can live by faith in Christ before God.

01:15:04

My conscious can live without feeling guilty or condemned. That's what he means.

01:15:10

So you cannot live unto God without dying unto the law. That's what. All right. So Calvin's teaching.

01:15:17

You're speaking of in Galatians, correct? Yeah. Okay. You're speaking about Paul's talking with Peter about the law in Galatians, correct?

01:15:30

Yeah. And the issue that Paul had with Peter was an issue of separation law, not moral law.

01:15:40

It was the fact that he would not eat with the Gentiles. So this is a perfect example of what

01:15:47

I'm trying to say to you. You just took Paul out of context to make your point.

01:15:53

Paul, typically he even mentioned the circumcision. He mentions the food and these laws for Israel that are the very things you're saying are not what he's saying.

01:16:09

That is specifically directly the context. You actually just gave me a perfect example to show you what you're doing.

01:16:17

Can I answer that? I know very well what you're saying. Can I answer that?

01:16:24

The epistle of Galatians in which Paul was saying to the

01:16:29

Galatians, you are under the law before you came to Christ. He is not saying you are eating

01:16:36

Jewish specific foods. You are circumcised. He's not talking about that law.

01:16:41

It's not separation law. When he says you are under the law before you came to Christ he's specifically talking about the moral law upon the conscious about which

01:16:51

I'm talking. The Galatians who are Gentiles who are never under those separation law or circumcisions or keeping

01:16:59

Sabbaths. The whole context of the Galatians is about that law, not the separation laws.

01:17:07

So therefore, when Paul says, shall we find we who came to Christ, if we found ourselves as sinners, did

01:17:15

Christ become minister of sin? What he means is that after coming to Christ, you are still condemned in your conscious and your law is showing you, you are a sinner, you've done wrong and making you guilty as if it does like that.

01:17:34

Did Christ become minister of condemnation, which is Moses giving the law?

01:17:40

Did he became Moses? That's what Paul was saying there. Did he become

01:17:45

Moses? I mean, in a sense, did

01:17:52

Christ become the minister of condemnation? Did Christ came to condemn people conscious by putting their conscious under the law?

01:18:03

That's what Paul means there. Well, that's the whole - Or he came to free their conscious from the guilty and condemnation of the law.

01:18:12

That's what he means. Well, see, the issue, I think you have two issues that I would encourage you to think through, study on.

01:18:22

One is what makes sin sin? Because I'm saying that it's the nature of God violating the nature of God, going against the nature of God is what makes something sin.

01:18:34

And you're saying it's the effect of our conscience that we, that guilty feeling.

01:18:41

Those are two very different things. The other thing - No, they are the same. No, they're not.

01:18:50

Because - No, give me one second, I'll tell you. Because the operation of the law happens on your head.

01:18:57

And when I saying law won't justify you before God means it's not,

01:19:04

I'm not talking about some judgmental room before the throne of God. I'm talking about in your head, in your conscious, law will never justify you before God.

01:19:15

It always condemns you before God. In your heart of hearts, in your conscious, law always condemns you.

01:19:23

That's the purpose of the law. You cannot turn it again to appear before God in your conscious, in a right manner by using the law.

01:19:34

That's fundamentally opposite to the purpose of the law. So you're saying -

01:19:39

That's what Luther also said. Okay, well, I'm not so concerned with what Luther says. I'm concerned with what the Bible says.

01:19:45

You're saying that people's conscience can't be seared, that a person can't be, can't convince himself that wrong is right and he would believe that.

01:20:00

What is wrong, what is right, what who teaches is the law teaches, right? No, no, no, no, hear very clearly.

01:20:08

This is the whole thing, because you keep saying the law teaches it, and it's the feeling we have of consciousness.

01:20:14

And I'm saying it's the nature of God that determines it. It's God's nature that determines right and wrong, not our conscience.

01:20:24

Our conscience can be seared. We can convince ourselves wrong is right, and scripture says that.

01:20:30

So Paul ends up saying in Titus, what is it, 115, 16, something like that, where he's gonna say to the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but even their minds and their conscience are defiled.

01:20:50

So to a person who is defiled, their conscience will tell them wrong is right.

01:20:58

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, give me one second. If I go to India, they never heard the law of God.

01:21:07

There are Hindus who feel guilty of doing certain things. It's not the law.

01:21:14

It's not the God's nature or anything. It's the law in their conscience. What else, what is right or wrong?

01:21:21

And you are saying, give me one second. Those who you are saying, those who are seared in their conscience, on which they are insensitive to the law, that's not what

01:21:31

Paul is saying there. The Paul is talking that verse is about the faith and the gospel, because they use the law for their justification and to appear before God.

01:21:45

Their conscience are seared to the truth. The faith there is talking about the truth.

01:21:52

They don't accept the truth because their conscience were seared to what is life.

01:22:00

Actually, it's not at all about the conscience or justification in the conscience.

01:22:06

It's not about that. It's just a Christian misinterpretation of some dark sentence there and use it for their teachings.

01:22:14

That's what it is. Paul is writing this to someone who thinks like you. That's the point.

01:22:21

Tell me, read the context. We will interpret the word. Read the one and two passages above and that sentence above that.

01:22:30

Let's be really clear. He says in verse 10, for there are many who are insubordinate. Now, if they're insubordinate, they're claiming they're

01:22:38

Christians, but they're not being Christian. Okay, he calls them talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.

01:22:47

Those are the Judaizers. Those that are putting people back under the law of Israel, saying you have to keep the law of Israel, right?

01:22:57

Read the scripture. I will miss the, read the three sentence, one above and below. We can see what it is.

01:23:05

Well, forgive me for starting five verses before, not just one verse. I'm actually trying to give you context.

01:23:12

Okay, read that. I'm starting with - Read the next verse also, following that. For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.

01:23:25

They must be silenced since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain that which they ought not to teach.

01:23:38

One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

01:23:45

This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths, the commands of people who turn away from the truth.

01:24:03

To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and consciences are defiled.

01:24:14

They profess to know God, but deny him by their works.

01:24:21

They are detestable, dishonest, unfit for any good work.

01:24:26

These are people who are saying they know God, they're doing this in faith.

01:24:33

Scripture says that they're detestable - Can I talk about that verse?

01:24:39

Because I will forget what the verse is, okay? The verse is primarily about those who are promoting the keeping of Jewish law.

01:24:50

I mean, who is promoting the Jewish law upon the Gentiles. And their conscience were impure because their conscience itself condemns them.

01:25:00

Their heart itself condemns them because law condemns them. Let me say one more thing. How the conscience or hearts will be purified, the question is that Peter answers, through faith in Christ, the

01:25:13

Gentiles' hearts were made pure. God made their hearts pure through faith.

01:25:19

Therefore, if any person, Gentile or Jew, tries to keep the law to be right according to the law in their conscience, his conscience will be defiled because the primary work of the law is to show sin and condemn them.

01:25:39

They are sinners. Just like, give me one moment. Just like Adam and Eve, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge and evil, gave

01:25:47

Adam and Eve the knowledge that they are naked because the job is to show they are naked and they are sinners.

01:25:55

But Christian has to wear the righteousness robe, which is the

01:26:01

Christ's righteousness, not their work's righteousness or anything like that. Therefore, he must live by faith.

01:26:08

And you said like, he also, Paul also said, everything is right to those who are of faith, those who are of pure conscience.

01:26:16

For impure, everything is impure because their conscience were defiled. Law condemns them. They are sinners. They are guilty conscience.

01:26:23

So they are already defiled in that way. That's what Paul means there. That's what

01:26:28

I think about that sentence. All right, well, I hate to this point, you got it completely wrong.

01:26:34

And a simple way you can know it, context. Because he says, for there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.

01:26:47

So if he's saying, especially of a certain group, it means they're not all of that group, but you're saying they're all of that group.

01:26:54

No, they're not. But the fact is that he is saying that people's minds and consciousness can be defiled.

01:27:03

You're saying they can't be. Our conscience is not immutable.

01:27:12

Our conscience can change, okay? And so before you go on, let me just, because -

01:27:20

Okay, give me, I will give you one word, which Paul says, I will show you what it is.

01:27:26

Before you go on, just, son, I have to do, and Chris Honhold says,

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So not only do you get a discount, but you also get that. So back to Titus.

01:29:22

Titus is saying that our consciousness can be defiled. Yeah, give me,

01:29:30

I will tell you one verse, you can look it up. The thing is, when Paul talks about two people going and eating to that idol, that is sacrifice to the idol, in I think in Corinthians, when he says, one who is a strong Christian, who has,

01:29:47

I mean, like wisdom to understand what is right, I mean, like spiritual wisdom, that nothing is, all things are made by God.

01:29:56

And he goes and eats, which is sacrifice by the idol. One another brother who has weak conscious, he takes courage to go and eat that same food.

01:30:05

Afterwards, he condemns himself because his conscious condemns after doing what other person has done.

01:30:12

So if he does like that, his conscious will be defiled. And he says to the stronger brethren, you have destroyed the weaker brethren by your liberty,

01:30:24

Christian liberty. So the conscious is defiled by the condemnation of the law.

01:30:30

When a person is Christian, it defiles the conscious of a person. So the person will become guilty before the

01:30:39

God. That's what I'm saying. So again, so here's one thing we don't do.

01:30:46

We don't ignore a passage that teaches something we don't want it to teach and go to another passage.

01:30:53

But the passage you go to is really quite good because the passage you go to proves my point and proves you're wrong.

01:31:02

That the conscious is not immutable. That the conscience can be, what is

01:31:09

Paul saying? He's saying that if you tell someone who thinks that eating an idol, eating meat that was offered on titles, was it wrong?

01:31:18

Paul's saying, it's not a sin. It's not a sin. But if you convince a person to go against his conscience, he'll stop hearing the conscience.

01:31:32

In other words, he will get in it or be desensitized to it.

01:31:38

And that's what Paul is saying, that we have to have a pure conscience, just like he says in Titus, have a pure conscience, have one that is sensitive.

01:31:46

In other words, we don't - No, no, no, no. Sensitive conscious means you are saying that a person keeps his conscience under the law and he is always sensitive to condemnation.

01:31:59

He's doing certain little thing and the law comes, you are doing wrong, you are guilty, you have what you have done.

01:32:06

That's not the stronger conscience, it's the weaker conscience. The stronger conscience is living by faith and dying in your conscience under the law.

01:32:16

That's a stronger conscience. Weaker conscience is a weak that feels guilty or condemned by the law every day, every hour.

01:32:23

That's what Calvin wants to make Christians. That's why I'm saying, posted that one.

01:32:30

You're saying he wants to make them weak conscience Christians? Yeah, weak. Why did, how did, you know,

01:32:40

Roman Catholic Church did? I mean, he placed the law upon their conscience.

01:32:46

I mean, what you need to be right, you need to be to the standard of the opposals, you need to be as holy as the saints.

01:32:55

It placed their law more than what God gave, all sorts of distorted laws upon their conscience.

01:33:02

Therefore, they were under the burden all those years. Okay. So the

01:33:13

Roman Catholic Church doesn't tell, go and do adultery, go and do murder. It places the law on their conscience and it places the

01:33:25

Christian conscience under the law. Okay. So that's the tyranny.

01:33:32

All right, I'm gonna ask this question and I'm probably gonna kick myself for asking this.

01:33:40

You're referring to 1 Corinthians 8 with the food offered to idols.

01:33:47

What do you think is the purpose, based on the context of 1

01:33:56

Corinthians chapter 8? And folks in the audio, I'm cringing right now.

01:34:03

Don't use your liberty to cause obstacle to the weaker brethren.

01:34:09

That's the context. Do not use your liberty. Somebody who is a weaker brethren, who is struggling with the law, with this weak conscience, who condemns himself on every little thing because he is not according to the standard of the law, is struggling with the law, he's alive in his conscience to the law.

01:34:30

Don't trouble that person by your strength and your liberty. That's what Paul's ultimate view of that passage.

01:34:38

That's what I mean. Okay. Well, you got that right. Pastor Darren asks this question for you.

01:34:47

So then why did God write his law upon our hearts if he wants us to be weak

01:34:53

Christians? So when I say all human beings are under the law, it's not talking about, it's talking about that moral law.

01:35:05

When he says, Paul says, when scripture says the law, there has two meanings.

01:35:10

One is the law, which is the gospel is also the law, which is called a holy commandment.

01:35:18

If you break that commandment, you will have no continuity with father and the son.

01:35:24

That's what John writes in third epistle and Peter writes in, I think in second epistle, the false teacher break that holy commandment and they will fall away.

01:35:36

That you, the word where that is, the law is there, the Christ who is the personification of all morality is the image in their hearts is that law, not the law everybody has, every human being has upon their conscious.

01:35:55

It's not about that law. You are conflating those both two. Okay. Chris Honholz is asking you, he says, wait, did he just say the gospel is the law?

01:36:10

Gospel is the holy commandment, which breaking that commandment is sin unto death.

01:36:18

If you break that commandment, you will have no fellowship with father and son. That's the greatest commandment

01:36:26

Christian has to keep. And then next commandment is love your brother. That's the primary two for the

01:36:33

Christians. Yeah, that doesn't - If you go to another gospel, you are basically leaving

01:36:41

God and you are doing that greatest sin, which leads to unto death, spiritual death.

01:36:50

You are falling away from Christ. Not if you do something, you won't fall away from Christ. If you do that one, you will fall away from Christ.

01:36:57

Fabio is asking for you to give chapter and verse where it says the law has two meanings. Can you provide that?

01:37:06

The thing, I think in 2 Peter, the ending, they go back to the elementary, just like the dogs go back to the mud to eat, it's vomit and pigs go to the mud.

01:37:25

So also false teacher will break that holy commandment that was there in Peter. And in John's epistle to the elderly woman, when he says those, if you don't abide in the doctrine of Christ, you have neither father nor son.

01:37:43

That doctrine is that the commandment, the holy commandment. John also writes in first epistle, every transgression is forgivable.

01:37:53

If you pray to God, if your brother do something wrong, you can pray, God will forgive. But there is a sin unto death, which is that holy commandment.

01:38:03

If you turn away from the truth of the gospel, you are falling away from Christ. That's the top one.

01:38:10

What verse is that? Which one? It's in John, it is there.

01:38:16

I don't have the Bible. In that you just refer. If you type in Google, you will find out.

01:38:24

I'm asking. Because you just said there was, you just said you quoted a verse and I'm asking you for you to get it so you could get it right, where all sin could be forgiven except one.

01:38:40

And then. Yeah, it's in John, in John's Bible. What?

01:38:47

It's there. Give me, just type it. If your brother sees him doing sin, like I'll just type that one.

01:38:55

There is a sin unto death. Type this word in Google, you will find that one. There is a sin unto death about which

01:39:01

I am not talking. You don't know the passage. Oh, I have to, I mean, if I minimize this, it might go right.

01:39:09

Just type that one. There is a sin unto death about which I am not talking. That's what

01:39:14

John's verse there. And you're saying it's in John? Okay, that would be good.

01:39:20

Let's see. Okay, so sin to death, because I know it's in Mark.

01:39:29

There is a sin unto death about which I am not talking. That's how the words go.

01:39:36

Yeah, well, nope. Sin unto death is not gonna show up.

01:39:45

So in Mark. In Mark. No, no, it's in John. It's not in Mark, it's

01:39:52

John. So, yeah. He refers to a, well, okay, maybe it's, let me look here.

01:40:03

There is 1 John, maybe that's what you're referring to. 1 John 5 .16 says, if anyone sees his brother committing a sin, not leading to death, he shall ask

01:40:14

God and God will give him life. To those who commit sin, that does not lead to death.

01:40:23

Okay. That sin is all the breaking of the Ten Commandments and all the moral laws.

01:40:30

That's a transgression. And the sin unto death is departing from the faith of the gospel.

01:40:40

I mean, from the truth of the gospel, from the doctrine of Christ. That's the sin unto death. Okay. But what you quoted was, this one's

01:40:57

Matthew 12 .31. Therefore, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but the blasphemy against the

01:41:04

Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. That was the language you used. You didn't use the language,

01:41:10

John. No, I am talking about, he said, is the gospel a commandment?

01:41:18

Yes, gospel is a commandment. Pastor asked, is the gospel a law? Yes, gospel is a law, it's a commandment.

01:41:25

Falling from that gospel is a sin unto death. In other words, if you depart from the doctrine of Christ, you are spiritually dead.

01:41:33

Hold on, you're using law multiple ways again. I mean, I really,

01:41:42

I'm very concerned for you, John, Joe. Now, wait, your name, you came in as Joe, your name is

01:41:50

John, your name online is Joe, but you said your name is Jonathan, so I'm very confused.

01:41:56

Yeah, that's my nickname people call me, my friends call me that way. Okay, so I'm very concerned for you because what you're saying and what you've been doing throughout this hour and a half is ignoring the context of scripture, jumping around to try to make the

01:42:19

Bible say something you want it to say. You start with an answer and you're looking to make the

01:42:25

Bible No, no, no, I read Bible very perfectly and I read it for more than 20 years.

01:42:36

Nobody, I read no, like nobody has read that even in this generation, I read for 36 hours, 40 hours,

01:42:46

I read and meditated for hours. So it's not that I'm cooking something in my opinion.

01:42:52

Okay, so you're saying, because you read the Bible for 20 years and meditate upon it, no one has done that?

01:43:00

Maybe done that, but certainly I am among the top 1 % who spend that much of meditation and reading scriptures.

01:43:09

You can assume that one. So that you are saying, I just came up with some opinion and then

01:43:16

I try to find it on the scriptures, it's not like that. Okay, I have a question, does your arm hurt?

01:43:24

No. No, because I mean, you're patting yourself on the back so much, I was afraid your arm might hurt.

01:43:31

No, I was just leaning on the wall. Did you know that pride is a sin?

01:43:37

It's actually like the number one sin. Okay, I know all that shaming tactics, because -

01:43:44

It's a shaming tactic. So Paul says, yeah, Paul says, I am the -

01:43:50

You're in the top 1 % of all Christians in the world? No, that's a shaming tactic.

01:43:56

I'm not, I'm just being honest. It's not shame, nobody's shamed.

01:44:01

You shouldn't be ashamed of yourself, because Paul knew Christ. What does he say?

01:44:08

He calls himself the chief of sinners. You're - He also calls himself, he also calls himself,

01:44:16

I am in no wise, less knowledgeable than the least of the opposers. He also calls himself, do you call him a pride?

01:44:24

No, right? So saying the truth is not pride. Yeah. How can you speak with authority when you are, when you have those who are, and you keep telling me -

01:44:39

You said you can listen, okay? Or there is a big, big, big difference between claiming that you're right about the scriptures because you're in the top percentage of people because you studied it or read it for 20 years.

01:44:56

No, no, no, no. I didn't claim it because for that, I am saying is the context is, you are saying

01:45:03

I just came up with an idea and then I find out it in the scripture. That's what I am saying.

01:45:08

It's not, I came with the idea. I came from the scripture. What scripture did I came with?

01:45:13

The scripture - Because you are again telling the context. Okay, but scripture disagrees with you.

01:45:20

And I've shown that in several verses tonight. I've shown you several verses where you ended up claiming things that the exact context says the opposite.

01:45:33

You should not be praising yourself for having studied for 20, I mean, by your argumentation, you've only got 20 years.

01:45:41

No, not 20 years, not 20, I think 27 years. I got twice that on you.

01:45:47

Does that mean I'm right? That's okay, that's okay. I will tell you one little secret.

01:45:53

Yeah, everyone should be aware that both wise virgins and foolish virgins and their lambs, which is churches, they are all in sleep.

01:46:06

They're all in sleep according to Christ. It's not my word. No, no, no, no, no, no. Before he's coming, they're all in sleep.

01:46:13

That was according to you. That was what you're - Look, you wrote a 300 page book and you said it would clarify your position.

01:46:22

I read your book, 300 pages of arrogant babble.

01:46:27

That's what it was. No, it's not arrogant babble. I said the truth, the truth is that one.

01:46:35

No, no, no, it's what you wish to be true. It's what you wish to be true, but you condemn -

01:46:40

No, no, no, that's what scripture says. I wrote about Daniel and Revelation, about the beast.

01:46:46

Tell me how I am wrong with the interpretation of Daniel 11 and Revelation. That's all the truth.

01:46:55

Scripture says they will be falling away and God's anger will come and they will go into captivity.

01:47:00

And again, he will bring them. I guess the same thing. You have that as a past tense. You already have us in the final days.

01:47:09

You have us in the, you want to go to Daniel. You've messed up his timeline.

01:47:15

No, I didn't mess up. If I messed up, then Christ also messed up when he says -

01:47:21

No, Christ didn't. The reason you did is because you're not, you're not looking at context, but I'm going to -

01:47:29

No, the reason is that Christians support the beast.

01:47:35

That's it. Christians worship the beast, most of them, whose names were not in written in the book of life.

01:47:41

They worship the beast. Yeah. Well, the beast is the empire of Germanic tribes, which we call now

01:47:47

West. That's the beast. And Protestants are ten horns. And Babylon is the church of Rome.

01:47:54

That's the truth. That's a historical point. If you are subscribed to the dispensationalism, you cannot find the son.

01:48:02

Okay, so folks, you heard what he just said. If you subscribe to interpreting the

01:48:08

Bible correctly, you cannot find the son. If you interpret the

01:48:13

Bible using hermeneutics, using context, looking at it in its grammatical literal interpretation, you can't -

01:48:22

No, no, no, no. You said that. No, Bible, everywhere it's not literal, sir. Give me one minute,

01:48:28

I will tell you. If he says that Jonathan went and strengthened

01:48:33

David's hand in law, doesn't he saying about the physical hand?

01:48:39

It's not physical hand. Therefore, revelation uses the hand means it's not a physical hand.

01:48:44

Well, we do - It's just how you need to use scripture to interpret scripture.

01:48:51

Yeah, and you abuse that. You have to first interpret it. Yeah, give me one minute.

01:48:57

I will give you one more example. When David says - And we're gonna bring

01:49:02

John in. Turn this off here so we can see there. John, you always come in with your name being something special.

01:49:11

So you are not John. You are top 1 % Christian. Welcome. Foam finger number one, my friend.

01:49:19

I am number one. I'm on the top 1 % of the

01:49:24

Christians that are out there. I am dead serious.

01:49:30

I am so up there. I'm way above. I don't care about your logos knowledge there,

01:49:37

Andrew. Andrew, let me tell you.

01:49:45

I don't care how much money you spent on your logos and how much knowledge you have about your

01:49:52

Bible. Let me tell you something. I am the top 1 % of any

01:49:59

Christian. Oh, John, you always crack me up. All right, so thanks for coming in.

01:50:08

All right, so let me wrap up the show and address some of the comments that we've had throughout and explain some of what you end up seeing there.

01:50:18

Let me speak specific since Joe's still backstage. My concern is that your pride has blinded you.

01:50:28

Your pride has blinded you into thinking that you have the truth when you have a lie.

01:50:34

That your study and meditation, ignoring the context, when we take the

01:50:41

Bible literally, it doesn't mean every word is literal. If I say I'm so hungry, I can eat a cow. It doesn't mean I can literally eat a cow.

01:50:48

That is a phrase, an idiom. We would interpret that as an idiom. That is the normal way of language.

01:50:55

But to condemn all people, all dispensationalists, all

01:51:00

Calvinists, all the people that you list in your book, they're all condemned to hell by what? Not by scripture, but by you.

01:51:08

You have an issue with pride. And the fact that you think that a professing believer can sleep with a prostitute, but as long as they do it in faith, it's not a sin.

01:51:23

That's scary. That's dangerous. The fact that you're writing and trying to teach people this stuff is scary.

01:51:36

It really is. Because I am concerned for your soul that you would think that a believer can sleep with a prostitute and that'd be okay.

01:51:45

That you think that the conscience is the law.

01:51:52

That's dangerous. And I do have concern for your soul with that. You need to interpret within context, the immediate context.

01:52:01

In fact, I was gonna play this in the beginning and I didn't but maybe I should have. This is from a previous show where we dealt with someone like this.

01:52:08

But this is how to use context because you mentioned interpreting scripture with scripture and you only do that after you interpret within the immediate context because you,

01:52:21

Joe, had used passages that use the law and you said it's the moral law but then Paul is using it as a law to the

01:52:28

Israelites which is not the moral law. So the context proved you wrong but this was what we ended up having played.

01:52:36

And they play this clip from a previous show on how to use context. You start with the pre -eucalyptus. You start with the immediate context of what it's saying because that's where it's giving the definition of the words, the terms, things like that.

01:52:48

Then you branch out to, you wanna go chapter, you can do chapter, but chapter breaks are not inspired.

01:52:54

Neither are verse breaks, but you break out from that. So you want, if you have something that is a section where you are starting to, as we were looking at, you have something that is supporting.

01:53:06

Well, you're gonna start with, well, what's this supporting? That's the immediate context that right there in that part.

01:53:12

So you're gonna use that because we're in the sentence structure may end up helping us to see how a word is used, what it's emphasizing, what's it supporting.

01:53:21

Is it being used as an illustration or as a literal, things like that. Then you branch out and work your way out to a book.

01:53:27

You can end up then going, if you're looking at specifically a word, you're gonna then wanna look at how that word is used by the same author because the author may not use the word the same way.

01:53:38

You then can break out into how the word is used elsewhere in scripture. But just because a word is used several times one way by many writers of scripture, doesn't mean it's being used the same way every time.

01:53:51

And so that's why the immediate context is so important. And that's the whole thing. Immediate context is so important.

01:53:58

All right, let me, before I get to some of the comments that we had that I wanted to go to, I just wanna remind folks that if you wanted to get the book,

01:54:05

Sharing the Good News with Mormons, we have that at strivingforeternity .org, 35 % off with the coupon code

01:54:14

LDS. That stands for Latter -day Saints. Go get the book, Sharing the Good News with Mormons. If you're interested in sharing the gospel with Mormons, it will be very helpful, but it's also helpful because 24 different authors writing 24 different styles of interpretation give you lots of ideas.

01:54:29

So let's run through some of these comments we had. Chris Hanholds had said this, even as believers, we have conviction in our hearts.

01:54:38

Our conscience of sin leads us to confession and repentance. And that is a thing that we saw as a big difference with Joe and I.

01:54:48

Fabio had said, God doesn't have authority to judge us. What? Yeah, I was interested when he said that too.

01:54:55

It's our conscience that is doing the judging, not God. That's a problem.

01:55:03

Jason Cave, and by the way, if you see the little icon next to Jason's name there, that's because he is a member and a member is someone who supports us on YouTube.

01:55:12

So if you go to YouTube, I mean, better, if you really wanna support us, the better way to support us, just saying is go to strivingforeturning .org

01:55:21

slash support. That's the best way to help support us is to go there.

01:55:28

But we do appreciate the YouTube support. So Jason says, sounds like he's mixing

01:55:35

Eastern consciousness -based religions with the

01:55:40

Bible. And it's interesting that you said that, Jason, because he is coming from India. And I was wondering how much of that thought was influencing what he was saying.

01:55:52

Jason also had said this, didn't the first church start worshiping on Sunday to separate themselves from the

01:55:59

Jewish Sabbath? And that is true. That was something we talked earlier in the show about the

01:56:05

Sabbath. And there was that distinction that was made between the Christians and the

01:56:10

Jewish people. Nelson said this, I hope he understands that Jesus is the only way for Gentiles to get saved.

01:56:19

I'm hoping the same and from reading his book, I believe that he believes that Jesus is the only way.

01:56:27

However, Nelson, it seemed that he adds to that our conscious. The fact that he says that certain people like dispensationalists cannot be saved.

01:56:39

And you heard him say that on the show. It's in his book as well, several times. Then he's adding to scripture what the gospel is, that you have to have his interpretation to be saved, not the scripture's interpretation, his.

01:56:57

And he makes a distinction because I would say that there's many Lutherans, many reformed people, Presbyterian, Calvinists, dispensationalists that are saved.

01:57:07

I'll also say there's many in those same groups that are not because it's not being a member of that group that saves someone.

01:57:15

So when you say a specific group can't be saved, it's gotta be because they're denying the deity of Christ as part of the group or denying the gospel message and dispensationalists don't deny the gospel message.

01:57:31

And maybe Joe doesn't know the gospel message. So let me be clear with it. When I say the gospel, it's not a law, as he had said.

01:57:39

The gospel is the fact that we have sinned and violated God's law. And in doing so, we have broken his law, are guilty in his sight and deserve eternal punishment.

01:57:52

But God himself came to earth, died on a cross that we could be set free.

01:57:59

He paid the punishment that we owe. Being an eternal being, he could pay an eternal fine, becoming a human being and living a sinless life, he could be a substitute for people.

01:58:09

And therefore he can, having paid that price in full, can offer to us the forgiveness of sin.

01:58:15

That is the gospel. It's not a law, it's grace. So Drew had said, is he saying that we have the capacity not to sin?

01:58:26

It sure sounded that way, Drew. It sounded like he was teaching sinless perfectionism. And shortly after that is when he said that we could sleep with a prostitute and do it in faith and it wouldn't be sin.

01:58:39

And Drew said this, I think I broke my chin from my jaw hitting the floor.

01:58:47

Yeah, I was surprised at that too. He's teaching the old heresy of Gnosticism.

01:58:56

Ethan is asking, I don't know if you have talked about Matt Chandler yet, but if there is time,

01:59:03

I would love to hear your opinion, Andrew. So Ethan, I don't really have much of an opinion on that because I didn't look at enough details.

01:59:12

It is strange. There is something more to the story, so it seems.

01:59:18

It seems like they're trying not to give the specific details. They're trying to protect maybe

01:59:25

Matt Chandler's reputation while trying to do the right thing. This is very common where people don't say exactly what has happened.

01:59:34

Matt Chandler has resigned from the pastorate of his church under the counsel of the elders because he had an inappropriate non -sexual online relationship with another woman.

01:59:48

Not sure, they gave no context of that. But what was unclear about it was that it was both disqualifying and not disqualifying at the same time.

01:59:59

I don't get that. So there's more to the story is my conclusion.

02:00:05

I don't have enough information to say that it's right or wrong. However, I will say that we've done a previous episode dealing with Matt Chandler.

02:00:14

If you go onto the previous of Paul Jack's Lives, search for Cedarville University because what

02:00:21

Matt Chandler did was to cover up and not expose someone that was in his church that was sinful and allowed him to go and get hired at Cedarville University.

02:00:33

They hired him and then they had to do what Matt Chandler's church should have done and that is to get rid of him and expose him for the sin.

02:00:42

That he would have saved Cedarville University from having to do that had he done the biblical commands of exposing sin, which there's much scripture that deals with that of having to correct sin, which proves that those who are in the faith doesn't mean that they're without sin.

02:01:04

I'll encourage you to go back as we did to Titus, that passage that we read made it crystal clear that there are people who are, though they're in the faith, still

02:01:18

Paul, and this is back to the discussion with Joe, that is one that Joe should study out the passage of Titus 1.

02:01:28

Why? Because that is exactly Joe's point and Paul is saying that people like Joe are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good work.

02:01:40

He is preaching the same thing that Paul is addressing with these

02:01:46

Judaizers and the other insubordinate people. So that is why

02:01:52

I would have a concern. Okay, Chris Huff came in kind of late and he said, what shall we say then?

02:02:00

Are we to continue in sin that grace should increase? May it never be. How shall we who die to sin live in it?

02:02:08

Now, it's interesting because Joe quoted this, Chris. He quoted this very verse, but he used it different than you saw it because we would look at this and say, yeah, sleeping with a prostitute is exactly what

02:02:23

Paul would be saying. We should not be sinning, but Joe says we can do that and it's not sin.

02:02:30

Chris Hunholds said, good grief. This guy is 100 % unwilling to hear anything that challenges his predetermined view.

02:02:43

Chris, I agree with you. I think we saw that throughout. I tried to patiently explain to him why he was taking things out of context, but even toward the end, you saw that he just wanted to continue to fight and argue.

02:02:58

Someone pointed out that when someone is talking over someone over and over again, that's usually a sure sign of problems.

02:03:04

Chris later had said, I give Andrew lots of credit for his patience. I would have likely have muted or booted him by now.

02:03:12

Well, Chris, the show is for the purpose of doing apologetics and showing how it's done.

02:03:17

And we as Christians have to have patience, Chris. I know it's hard. I know that you usually, when you lose patience, just arrest people.

02:03:26

That's the advantage of being a police officer. But no, it's a thing where we have to realize, look, we have to recognize that we are wrong in our theology.

02:03:39

Every one of us is. We don't know where. Maybe there could be things that Joe could say that would help me to understand things, that would give me insight.

02:03:49

But when he takes the passages out of their direct context, I know he's breaking the first rule of interpretation.

02:03:56

And if you can't follow the rules, the rules of interpretation, you can't say that you have the truth.

02:04:04

I'll paraphrase Calvin, even though I know Joe doesn't like him. Calvin had said, when you have to twist

02:04:11

God's word, you no longer have God's word, but man's word. And when you're making the scripture say something that does not say, you have your own thinking.

02:04:21

And that's what Joe has because the direct context disagreed, all right? Kevin Schaefer had said, people who jump all around and talk over people are frustrating.

02:04:33

People who do that tend to be unteachable. God needs to work in his heart before opening his eyes.

02:04:42

And I don't know if Joe is unteachable. He had that persona, but I don't know him well enough to make the claim.

02:04:53

It appears that way, but let's pray for him. Chris said, Andrew, he doesn't care about context, brother.

02:05:01

We've established this. Yeah, I do believe that after two hours that that was established.

02:05:06

Now, this one's more personal. Ethan said, Andrew, Noah Schinnenberger goes to much church here in Ohio.

02:05:15

Not sure what much church is. I just learned about y 'all's connection this week.

02:05:21

So Ethan, I will be with Noah this coming up soon.

02:05:27

Let's see. I will be with Noah on the, looks like the 10th.

02:05:33

So I'll be sleeping over his place. He is my son -in -law's twin brother is who he is.

02:05:40

So that is the connection. And if you're out that way, maybe we can hook up at some point and get to meet up.

02:05:49

Okay, Pastor Darren came in late and he said lots of equivocation happening in this discussion regarding the meaning of the law.

02:05:59

And those that understand the different usage of the law saw this.

02:06:05

We have to have precision in the words. That's why I took the time to try to understand how he was using law, but the problem is he wasn't consistent.

02:06:14

Leslie says, oh, I'm gonna rewind. Yeah, this was one that you have to re -listen to.

02:06:20

Chris Honhold said, thank you. Wow, that was nuts. I agree with you. One last one that I had marked earlier during the show is

02:06:28

Favio says, so does he think he needs to keep the law, whatever that means in his head to be saved?

02:06:37

That's a good question. I would have liked to have asked him whether he believes that keeping the law would save him.

02:06:47

I know that Pastor Darren came in late because he had said this, yikes, a believer can sleep with a prostitute in faith.

02:06:55

He didn't hear that part. So Pastor Darren, you're gonna wanna rewind and listen to this because not only did he say that, but he claimed he was one of the top

02:07:06

Christians in the world because he studied the

02:07:12

Bible for 20 years and meditated on it more than anybody else, more than anybody else.

02:07:20

I mean, that's interesting because some of us have been saved maybe even longer than he's been alive, but I've been studying the

02:07:32

Bible for 38 years now, and specifically in the area of hermeneutics, how to interpret the scriptures.

02:07:41

And so that is something that when someone makes a claim that the number of years they've been studying, if that is it, and the devotion to the study, if that makes him right, then

02:07:55

I'm what, twice as right as him and he should be listening then? But it didn't seem he was listening because he was too busy talking.

02:08:03

And this is one of the things we do apologetics you have to recognize. When you have someone like Joe, who's not listening at all, he has a point of view he wants to teach.

02:08:16

If you saw throughout the show, I was trying to understand his position. I didn't wanna misrepresent his position.

02:08:22

I kept asking that. He wasn't doing that. In fact, a couple of times I had to point out he said the complete opposite of what

02:08:30

I said I was saying. So it can be frustrating. Some other comments

02:08:36

I'm seeing now. So Chris Honholds, brother, Chris Honholds says, brother, you showed extreme patience and kindness to Joe tonight.

02:08:43

Well done in responding and giving him opportunities to learn, even if he refused it at every turn.

02:08:49

Well, we can still pray for his soul. Jason says, striving fraternity class on biblical hermeneutics is amazing and free on YouTube.

02:09:00

Thank you all for the content, Andrew. Continue fighting the good faith, sorry, continue fighting the good fight, brother.

02:09:09

So yeah, Jason, thank you for that. We should mention, you can go to strivingfraternity .org,

02:09:16

go to our academy, and Joe, I encourage you to do this. We have 20 lessons on how to interpret the

02:09:22

Bible. We do you well to take that. Chris says,

02:09:28

I guess this is back when I mentioned supporting. He said, yep, we are supporting SFE.

02:09:34

It ain't much, but every little bit helps. And I agree with that immensely, Chris. And if those of you wanna help keep us on doing what we're doing, strivingfraternity .org

02:09:44

slash support. We know that smaller ministries, which we always desired to be a smaller ministry, smaller ministries during bad economic times are the ones that suffer.

02:09:55

So if you can help out, we would greatly appreciate it. Fabio says, thank you for sharing the gospel.

02:10:03

He needs to hear it. All of us need to hear it. Even those of us who are saved need to remember from where we came and remember that the gospel is a glorious grace to us who believe.

02:10:20

Chris Hough was speaking to his brother, Drew there. They're both co -hosts, or they both are hosts.

02:10:27

I guess now Chris actually hosts it and Drew is the co -host. I don't know, they keep mixing it up.

02:10:33

But anyway, they are on Matter of Theology podcast, another podcast on Christian Podcast Community. He says,

02:10:38

I still haven't picked up my jaw from the floor after that comment. Yes, that was an unbelievable comment.

02:10:48

Let me just quickly go through, see if there's any other ones here that we got here.

02:10:57

Did it, did it, did it. So Pastor Darren says, did you just admit you're wrong in your dispensationalism?

02:11:05

That's what I heard. No, I think dispensationalism is the proper way of interpreting the

02:11:12

Bible. I do think Joe doesn't understand dispensationalism because I think he believes as many that it's an end times system and not a hermeneutical system.

02:11:23

I'm gonna bring in, I know we're gonna close out the show, but someone did come in, someone who I haven't seen before.

02:11:29

So I'll add in Francisco. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing all right.

02:11:36

Thank you for having me on, Andrew. I've been watching you for a little bit now.

02:11:42

And I just wanna ask you a question. I don't know too much about Calvinism or Reformed theology,

02:11:49

I know a little bit, but I guess my question is, I've seen you guys, you specifically going out and witnessing and giving people the gospel, and it seems like there's an urgency in it.

02:12:00

But I guess my question was, and it might just be from my little understanding of Calvinism as far as the elect, how you guys understand the elect.

02:12:14

If God already knows or have already chosen who's going to be saved, why such urgency,

02:12:21

I guess, to go give, if he does the regenerating, of course, and if he knows who's gonna get saved and he gives them the faith to get saved,

02:12:30

I guess that's my question. Okay, yeah, that's a good question. So when God speaks of election and predestination, he is speaking in language that you and I can't understand.

02:12:42

What I mean by that is God is eternal and we are not. So you and I think of things in time, right?

02:12:50

God's eternal, he's outside of time. He created the time -space continuum. So what we end up seeing is that,

02:12:56

I explain it this way, everything's an eternal now to God. So this is the best I could do in trying to explain this.

02:13:01

But to God, we're sitting here having this conversation.

02:13:08

Jesus is on the cross. Isaac's being offered up as a sacrifice. Adam and Eve are in the garden.

02:13:14

And whatever is in the future, it's all in the same now to God. We can't understand that.

02:13:20

So when he uses language like that, what he's doing is saying that we had nothing to do with it.

02:13:25

When he says that we were elect before the foundation of the world, that's baby talk.

02:13:32

What do I mean by that? He's trying to explain to us what we can't possibly understand. We can't understand an omniscient eternal being, but we can understand time.

02:13:42

So he talks about it before an event to say that we had nothing to do with our salvation.

02:13:50

Okay, now let me ask you a couple of quick questions just to see where you're at,

02:13:56

Francisco. Do you believe when Adam partook of that fruit in the garden and there was a curse that affected the sin nature, basically, the curse of sin, do you believe that it affected his thinking, his intellectual abilities, his emotional abilities, and even his volitional, his will?

02:14:23

Was all of that affected by it and influenced by sin? I guess I always thought more of what was affected was, just like what

02:14:33

God said, that he spiritually died, that that connection with God was severed. So he's spiritually being dead.

02:14:40

As far as having other effects on him, I guess it could. I mean, it had an effect on the earth.

02:14:47

Yeah, actually, the whole universe, according to Romans 8. Okay, do you believe that when we're saved, we had nothing to contribute to it?

02:15:04

Well, we're saved by grace, by faith only. Okay, so it wouldn't be that we have part of our ability that Scripture would say we're spiritually dead.

02:15:20

It's not that we have some ability still to be alive, partially to make righteous decisions?

02:15:32

Or does it have to be solely upon what God does? I think I see where you're going with that.

02:15:39

I think that, you know, the Bible tells us that we're a slave to sin before we're regenerated.

02:15:46

I think that, you know, hearing the word of God, and that, you know, by hearing the word of God, it gives that person an opportunity to believe the word of God.

02:16:01

Okay, do you believe there's anyone in hell? Yes. Okay, so you, well, come back to that one.

02:16:10

Do you believe that when God does a work, he's gonna bring it to fulfillment?

02:16:17

Yes. Do you believe that once we're saved, once our nature's changed, that we can't lose that?

02:16:26

Yes, I believe that. Okay, so I would say you're a

02:16:32

Calvinist. Now, I said I'd come back to the middle one. So what

02:16:38

I gave you, the issue of total depravity, I'll use the language of Calvinism now, total depravity would say that our will was affected by sin.

02:16:48

Okay, those that don't believe in Calvinism would say that only our intellect and emotions were part of the curse, but not our will or volition.

02:16:57

The unconditional election is the idea that God chose us and we didn't choose him.

02:17:05

And I'm gonna come back to that one in a moment. So I'm gonna put that on hold as well. Limited atonement, if you believe anyone's in hell, you believe the atonement's limited.

02:17:16

Now the question is, how limited? We all believe it's limited, unless you're a universalist.

02:17:23

The issue for some is that some Calvinists will teach that when Christ was on the cross, he only died for the elect.

02:17:32

Not all that claim to be Calvinists will agree with that, but the issue there as well is back to that same thing we first talked about.

02:17:43

In the mind of God, he knew who was going to accept and who wasn't because he's omniscient.

02:17:52

So in his mind, he knew that even though he could say he offers the gospel to every human being, he knows who's gonna accept it.

02:18:04

And so in his mind, he knows, but in our mind, we don't. And so this is getting to your question then, how can

02:18:12

I have a passion for the gospel? Well, because I don't know who's gonna be saved. I don't know who the elect are.

02:18:18

So I'm gonna passionately preach the gospel to everybody praying that they would repent.

02:18:24

God knows who are the elect, I don't, okay? The last one, preservation of the saints.

02:18:32

The fact that the nature of salvation is that when we are saved, God changes us and we cannot lose that.

02:18:40

Why? Because the payment was made at the cross according to Colossians 2.

02:18:46

That's when the punishment was paid. So how can we do a sin that would unsave us, right?

02:18:56

We can't. So I think I answered your initial question. Let me get back to that second one that I said.

02:19:04

And let me explain what I mean by, this is dealing with the idea of irresistible grace as well as the idea of unconditional election.

02:19:14

The way that I tried to explain this is I look at the way we, the doctrine of inspiration, how we got scripture.

02:19:21

When we look at the doctrine of inspiration, we would say there's a doctrine within that called superintending.

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And what this is is that there's different ways people see that we got scripture. There's the dictation method that God dictated to the writers and they wrote down exactly as they were told.

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There is the view that the writers themselves were inspired and then there's this view of superintending.

02:19:49

So let's look at each of those really quick. The first one, the problem with the first one is we see

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Paul writing in a different style than John, Peter. You see them writing things that are personal in nature.

02:20:02

So the dictation method wouldn't fit if God was dictating because you'd have the same type of voice, but you see the individuals coming out in their writings.

02:20:14

So that one wouldn't be right. The second that would have a problem because if everything

02:20:20

Paul writes is inspired, we know he wrote at least one and I believe two letters to Corinth that we don't have.

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We have first and second Corinthians, but we don't have the other two letters. So everything he wrote was not seen at the time as being scripture.

02:20:36

So what is superintending? This is the idea that God works through the human author such that the very things they wrote were exactly as God intended it to be so that God gets a hundred percent of the credit.

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So Paul could not write Romans without God working through him. God had to do a work.

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Paul in and of himself could not write Romans and it be

02:21:07

God's word, but Paul can't take credit for writing it even though he wrote it. God gets the credit.

02:21:13

That's the doctrine of superintending. We see that in the doctrine of scripture. We also see it in the doctrine of inspiration, or sorry, of sanctification.

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In sanctification, do we do good works? Well, yeah, we physically do the good works, but yet it says the spirit does it through us.

02:21:31

So that's that same doctrine. God working through the human such that God gets a hundred percent of the credit and we can't get any, we can't take any.

02:21:42

And so again, we see that. So I take this same thing and I apply it now to regeneration.

02:21:52

So did I choose God? I would say, yes, experientially I chose

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God, but theologically God chose me and I could not choose

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God apart from God choosing me, but chronologically there's no difference.

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This is the issue. I do not see a difference between chronologically, it is a simultaneous act so that God worked through me so that the choice that I made to believe in him was exactly as he intended it to be such that he gets a hundred percent of the credit and I don't get any.

02:22:30

And I could not do that on my own. Does that help you to explain that?

02:22:38

Yes, it helps me understand a little bit more. I guess, it comes to mind when you say that, if God works someone to go to his intended end, for them to be saved, is that the opposite as well?

02:22:54

True, that he intends some people not to be saved. Yes, and he says that, let me look this up real quick in Romans 9.

02:23:05

Here's what Romans 9 says, I'll read a little bit more to give context, but I'll start in verse 14. What shall we say then?

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Is there injustice in God's part? By no means, for he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom

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I'll have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I'll have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy.

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For the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose,

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I raised you up that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on earth.

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So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he has hardened whomever he wills.

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You will say to me then, why does he still find fault for who can resist his will?

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But who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to the molder, why have you made me like this?

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Has the potter no right over the clay to make one of the same lump, one vessel of honorable use and the other of dishonorable use?

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What if God desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power has endured much patience, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

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That passage makes it very clear that yes, God knows those who will be saved and those who will not because he's omniscient.

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And in that sense, yes, he prepared some for glory and some for destruction, he says that.

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Now, that is in his omniscience. We don't have omniscience, right?

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We learn things and this is where we have trouble because we can't comprehend omniscience.

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So he can say this because to him, everything's an eternal now, right?

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Cause he's eternal. And this is what we end up seeing with him. Does that help?

02:25:40

Yeah, it helps me get a good understanding of where you guys come from. I really appreciate it.

02:25:47

Okay, so thanks for coming in and I'll encourage you to get, if you go to strivingforturn .org,

02:25:53

get my book, What Do We Believe? And I have a whole chapter that tries to detail this and make this clear.

02:26:04

So I encourage you to pick that up and maybe that'll help you some, all right? All right, appreciate it.

02:26:09

All right, thank you. All right, folks, we did go into Anthony time by half an hour. Anthony time is whenever we go over the two hour mark.

02:26:17

And so, but Francisco came in there toward the end and I didn't want to make sure we got to his question, but I know many were commenting, we're on Anthony time without Anthony.

02:26:29

Anthony is out on vacation. We were out at the Living Waters Ambassadors Academy and we ended up coming back from that and he needed a vacation,

02:26:42

I guess. And there he is saying, that is always the best time is Anthony time.

02:26:50

He's, so he's at least been backgrounds. It's kind of, Anthony is one to say, if you mentioned his name three times quickly, he appears maybe, you know?

02:26:59

But I hope this has been helpful for you guys. I hope it didn't give you too much of a headache, Chris.

02:27:06

Hope that migraine, you can have something, you know, for that. So Joe, before he left, just, he mentioned a couple of things.

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He says, why didn't the reformers ask question, why

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God sent his servants spiritual captive to Church of Rome for centuries?

02:27:30

I don't understand the question. So the next thing he said, why didn't, why did his indignation come upon them?

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Did apostasy or falling away happen before that? I would say there is no apostasy in God's mind.

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It's just in our mind, all right? So KT is saying, find the hidden Anthony in Anthony time.

02:27:58

And Jason says, Anthony, Anthony, Anthony. So there you go.

02:28:04

So with that, folks, thank you for joining us. I hope this has been helpful. I hope you learned some things.

02:28:10

Hope you learned how we do engage with people that don't agree with us and the importance of trying to hear someone out and the importance of trying to be precise in what we say, making sure that when we hear someone that we're gonna be speaking the same.

02:28:31

Joe had said he wouldn't come on unless I read at least the last chapter of his book because that, excuse me, that supposedly explained the details of his view.

02:28:43

I can honestly say I read his entire book and I'm still puzzled with his view. I did see a lot of condemning of people and who he thinks is not saved and whatnot, but yeah.

02:28:56

So next week on Apologetics Live, we will have Israel Wayne on.

02:29:02

So Dr. Svestro will be covering that. I will not be here because I will be on my way to Ohio.

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I'll be preaching at Providence Church. And that is, so I'll be there.

02:29:17

If you're in the Mansfield, Ohio area, I'll be at Providence Church in Mansfield, Ohio.

02:29:23

So I'll be headed out Thursday night to get out there. And so Anthony will head the show with Israel Wayne.

02:29:32

After that, I will be at Anthony's house at Dr. Svestro's. So not sure what we'll do.

02:29:37

We'll do that one probably together. And then I think that in September 22nd, there's a couple of shows that we'll let you know will be coming up that we're gonna do.

02:29:49

One is I'm gonna probably have on a guy who is a missionary gamer. Now, most people who do gaming and claim that they're doing missions are just playing games.

02:30:00

We're gonna talk to someone that actually goes into games and spends about eight hours a day evangelizing.

02:30:07

That is his full -time job. We're gonna talk with him and get to see that in the gaming world, people will do what they wish they could do in real life.

02:30:18

You'll wanna wait to see what that is. Another thing that we're talking about is we had done a series on dealing with a specific church.

02:30:29

And well, someone has decided to finally, finally, in a sense, break the silence.

02:30:37

Yes, the silence barrier was broken. We will play what was said and address it.

02:30:44

So that will be coming up probably in early October. We wanna make sure that we get everything right when we do that.

02:30:53

And so Drew is saying, I don't know how to play video games, but how to get that job, ha ha.

02:31:01

Actually, video games, you'd be surprised, is now in electronic sports, is big money.

02:31:10

It really is. So you can make a lot of money doing that, but you gotta be good at the game.

02:31:18

This guy's actually not good at the games. Well, he probably could be, but I'll let him explain why he's not when he comes on.

02:31:25

So folks, thanks for joining, paying attention. And again, if you wanna help support us, go to strivingforeturning .org

02:31:32

slash support to help support us in doing what we do at Striving for Turning Discipling, doing shows like this to help you be able to learn how to do apologetics better.

02:31:43

Learn to be patient, learn to hear someone out, learn to be precise, and learn to use scripture in their context.

02:31:51

Do not fall for the bait when someone, when you give someone the context of one verse and they immediately wanna jump to another because the context contradicts what they just said.

02:32:02

They do that because the context doesn't agree with them. It was just kind of sad for Joe that when he did do that, he jumped to another context that also didn't agree with him.

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So yeah, let me make it clear. God says sleeping with a prostitute is sin, no matter what your conscience says.

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You cannot do that in faith, just to be really crystal clear. So until next week, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.