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    Interview on BAPTISM w/ @wreckedtoreformedstudios7138

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    Christ Rescued Me! ....from the "CoC" The God Who Justifies by James White https://amzn.to/3vUt1pC https://amzn.to/3NmJNUV =============================== Church of Christ Exiles This is a Facebook Group meant for people coming out of the Restoration Movement that are seeking community and help with receiving the Gospel of Grace. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1558657601255622

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    00:02
    This is wrecked to reformed Welcome back to rectal reform podcast.
    00:25
    I'm your host Randy Atkins and we have a guest The apologetic dog
    00:32
    How are you brother? Randy I'm doing wonderful. Thank you for being gracious and waiting on me.
    00:38
    I was having to put the apologetic puppy to sleep baby JJ Yeah For those of you who don't know this is
    00:46
    Jeremiah Nortier our brother from another mother in Christ And as his sign says it don't mean it it don't mean that Hey, we got to meet.
    01:00
    What was it about a month ish ago at In Tullahoma at the Y Calvinism conference.
    01:06
    It was so good getting to meet you and your wife in person yeah, it was a blessing meeting you brother and I We got a picture together didn't we
    01:15
    I think so. We I try to get those selfies when I can right? Yeah, it was trippy meeting people in person that you've seen like on social media
    01:26
    It's just I'm you know who I met that was just I was starstruck, but I kind of couldn't believe it
    01:32
    It was Todd frill. I met at g3 cuz he's so tall He's so intentional talking to you and his hands are like giant mitts
    01:42
    So he's one while I was just talking to him just kind of nodding my head freakishly tall frill.
    01:48
    Uh -huh. I Remember when he was hosting What was it it was
    01:57
    Was it the way the master or something? I remember they did a collab way back in the day him and like right come over to them
    02:03
    Yeah, I remember that because I was watching that kind of stuff right after I was saved
    02:09
    But no, it was the Strange fire conference. You remember that?
    02:15
    Okay, so that's also where I found out about him I was like who is this knucklehead who is hilarious and I don't know if he gave a plug or I looked up his name
    02:25
    And that's how I became a wretched member was him hosting the train strange fire back when
    02:31
    I was in college Yeah, man, I loved it When were you in college?
    02:37
    So I went to college oh man, I got I got to check the memory banks on this one it was 2011 through 2015
    02:47
    Okay Okay. See I wasn't saved until Like the end of 2016 the beginning of 2017
    02:54
    Wow. Yeah, praise God. Praise God. Indeed. I lived Everybody who listened to this probably already heard the this but I lived my whole life thinking that I was a
    03:04
    Christian until God humbled Me and saved me. Oh, man yeah, he put me in the hospital for three days and I was terrified and I knew by the grace of God that if I Died in that state
    03:15
    I would go to hell. Mmm, and so I I had a hole in my esophagus That was bleeding air to the chest cavity
    03:22
    Yeah, that was scary and I prayed didn't know what to pray how to pray I just said, you know,
    03:28
    Lord, please. Please. Don't let me die. God, please. Don't let me die and At the end of those three days
    03:34
    They were gonna do like an x -ray to see where the hole was so they can go in cut it open suture it up Close it back up and they couldn't find it.
    03:44
    Yeah. Wow. It's gone So that was that was the beginning of God drawing me to himself
    03:53
    And probably six months or so later I Understood the gospel granted repentance and faith and was saved.
    04:05
    Yeah That's incredible. I love hearing people's testimony, especially the ones where there's like massive
    04:12
    Providential, you know circumstances like you're talking about. I think all Johnny Mac It wasn't his testimony, but it was his call to ministry.
    04:20
    That was pretty radical. I think he had a Vehicle accident and he landed on his back and was kind of looking in the sky like all right,
    04:29
    Lord I just want to be all in for you. And I was I just like God takes those those trials those circumstances, but you can just see how he's redeeming the time even though the days are evil
    04:39
    Like God is still right Amen Yeah, it was similar to What he he did to me not that it was
    04:48
    I was in an accident or anything like that, but I Was very prideful I was a prideful arrogant jerk and had the mouth of a sailor and Yeah, yeah, and I was chasing everything the world had to offer
    05:03
    And then I remember after God saved me I was I was finally reading through the
    05:09
    Old Testament. I'd read through the New Testament like seven eight times by that time because I was just reading whole books of the
    05:15
    Bible, you know every day and I Wanted to know that I had that hope
    05:22
    Of eternal life because I was terrified. I was raised believing that you could lose your salvation
    05:29
    You know one is Pentecostal church a very liberal Baptist Church and no gospel in either one of them, you know, it's very
    05:38
    Of course the liberal Baptist Church was you prayed the prayer you're fine and the the one has been a coastal churches you better do better No, I think well, we'll probably touch on that here in just a little bit
    05:50
    Because topic for today is baptism Yeah, so It was it was it was something because I turned away from all of it by the grace of God all that the world had to offer and I Was reading through the
    06:10
    Old Testament and I got to the point in the book of Daniel where Nebuchadnezzar was humbled Mmm, he came back to himself.
    06:17
    He was granted that his mind back And his understanding returned to him and he said that God is able to humble those who walk in pride
    06:28
    That was me That was me and I was you know, I think the Lord for it every day for for those three days in the hospital
    06:37
    Because that's what he used to draw me to himself. Mm -hmm. Amen. Amen I don't have
    06:46
    Super radical experience like that. I'd tell people though, you know reformed theology does take a seemingly mundane
    06:56
    Testimony and it makes us the sweetest thing that's ever happened because we believe it was a miracle
    07:02
    Right people of the choice in this theology They can't call the the conversion experience a miracle from above now
    07:11
    That's because they're trying to be consistent even though our heart screams No a radical change from deadness and sin not seeking
    07:19
    God in the light switch coming off right even in the midst of remarkable
    07:24
    Providence So, you know, what's the valley of dry bones for every one of us? Absolutely, you know, yeah, we might get to flex a little bit of our
    07:33
    Reformed Baptist covenant theology guns because that's the new covenant. That's right the uttermost.
    07:40
    That's right That's right and I love having this conversation with my
    07:46
    Presbyterian brothers out there Because it's like You just don't understand the covenant
    07:54
    That's what they'll say to us and it's like our response is no We do understand the covenant that's why we're bad this
    08:02
    So I will say this though. Yeah, I was jaded Towards reformed
    08:07
    Baptist covenant theology and obviously Presbyterian covenant theology because I grew up I say grew up for about eight when
    08:13
    I was 21 Into my mid almost late 20s. I was very dispensational with with John MacArthur's teaching and as we were talking before we started
    08:22
    Faithful man, we love him. We differ with eschatology with him now, right? But when my it's funny because when my eschatology began to shift
    08:31
    I was actually preparing for my debates I was reading a lot of books and there were just a few stellar
    08:36
    Arguments that just hit me different if you will and I remember the day I called the pastor
    08:41
    I served with I said Nathan I don't think I'm pre mill anymore. And you know, he said I told you that would happen and we laughed and So what that did was when my eschatology shifted it allowed me to now hear
    08:55
    Positive cases for post -millennial ism thought all millennial ism thought and Covenant theology because for the first time
    09:04
    I wasn't committed to like a a leaky moderate dispensational Understanding and I read the kingdom of God by Jeffrey Johnson phenomenal book very similar with how with how
    09:17
    Rinehan talks about the covenants and going further back to the you know 1689 federalism with Nehemiah Cox and those guys and My mind just felt like it was
    09:28
    Expanded because now I I feel like I have a better grasp of how God relates to his people in terms of covenant
    09:37
    So I only knew covenant theology through a Presbyterian lens because I had a lot of Presbyterian friends, right?
    09:44
    And I just couldn't understand the distinctions with Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist covenant theology and like you're getting at It's it's way different.
    09:54
    You know, I mean, yeah we believe that the covenant made with Abraham was cut with different blood and therefore as a
    10:02
    Different covenant than the new covenant that's cut with the blood of Christ and is it that is the covenant of grace?
    10:09
    So anyway, when I start when a lot of these pieces started coming together, I'm just like man I can't go back after this.
    10:15
    All right Yeah, it's it's interesting because obviously Everyone From the dawn of time
    10:24
    Adam and Eve all the way to the end of redemptive history Are all saved by faith alone.
    10:30
    Mmm Right. I mean you go through Hebrews 11. You can't you can't just can't avoid it, but there are different covenants and Abraham was saved before the covenant and he was saved before A circumcision and he was saved long before the law.
    10:50
    Mmm, so I've asked before with Roman Catholic who
    10:59
    I met who actually bought my vehicle from We were driving around and I saw his his beads on his hand and I was like What's that and I was pretty sure
    11:12
    I knew what it was he's like, oh that's my my prayer beads I was like, oh, okay Catholic he's like, yeah and so I asked him
    11:22
    I was like so How does somebody have peace with God oh man, and he's like,
    11:29
    I don't know mmm You should have said who's the blessed man.
    11:38
    I Did I went to Romans 4 and And and and showed him that and then
    11:46
    I asked him I was like, do you know how people in the Old Testament were saved? Mmm, he's like, well, they weren't
    11:51
    I was like, yeah, we're like by faith alone Just like in Romans 4 and in Romans 3, you know 328 we we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from any works of the law and That's any works at all
    12:08
    Because they would say well it's it's not works of the law it's things that are pleasing to God and I'm like and Where do you find that?
    12:17
    Mmm. Mmm, you're like Last time and last time we checked the law was holy righteous and good
    12:24
    Problem is this gets back into our covenant theology that law only condemns.
    12:30
    Yeah. Sorry to our Presbyterian brothers It's not a different Administration of the covenant of grace.
    12:36
    It is a law that condemns because it crushes If it's not a field to perfection because God is holy
    12:45
    And I'm with you all these historic covenants that stack are just more of a testimony against us and Galatians telling us that we need a
    12:58
    Savior that can fulfill it perfectly exactly and then
    13:04
    It's like It was a really good conversation because he just sat there and listened to me preach the gospel to him for like 20 minutes
    13:12
    While we're sitting in the in the parking lot and and then I I called down there because I wanted to talk to him again
    13:19
    And he moved back to Louisiana. He was only here for like a week or two So you talk about Providence that yeah
    13:27
    God put me there. God put him there and and that Divine appointment was was carried out according to God's will man.
    13:37
    But anyway So along with that we talk about Covenants we talk about circumcision
    13:46
    What is it that the law can never do? So depending on how we we want to answer this the law
    13:55
    Cannot save us right? So I mean we go a different few different angles, but like it's interesting how we talk about circumcision
    14:02
    I don't know if you were able to listen to all of my last debate But I brought up that Reformed Baptist Covenant theology sauce
    14:10
    To a church of Christ that I promised she was scratching his head Like why does he keep talking about how the
    14:17
    New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant in every way? I'm right. Oh it matters because the law you kills right?
    14:26
    The law doesn't save us, right? Yeah, and so the the
    14:32
    Judaizers in the early church were they fell under the the curse the anathema of Galatians chapter 1 but why was it that they fell under the curse of Galatians chapter 1 is because they added something to the gospel
    14:50
    I Want to speak to that a little bit? Yeah, because Roman Catholics and the
    14:55
    Church of Christ Sorry, if we're getting a little bit ahead, but I don't know you're good I've often said
    15:01
    Church of Christ are Roman Catholic light. They just have less sacraments. They don't have a priest there
    15:06
    They don't have a full or theology. I mean, they're full -on Pelagians like born -perfect, you know,
    15:11
    I mean And so but they have a lot of shared response That's why a lot of Church of Christ will just when they leave
    15:18
    Church Christ they go back to Rome Essentially, I got a book plug. I want to bring up later but They swim the
    15:27
    Tiber they swim the Tiber And Going the wrong direction what quoting
    15:35
    Romans 3 28 and Galatians 2 16 about how we're justified by faith in Christ apart from works a law what
    15:44
    Roman Catholics and Church Christ will say Not by works the law and we're saying timeout
    15:51
    Well, we're Paul's telling us what justifies us and you can put any kind of working principle in The the negative placeholder, so don't think that When you put so much emphasis on The works of the law
    16:07
    I'm over here saying that's the best kind of work that you can think of you know
    16:13
    I mean and it still isn't going to get you in So the fact that you want to replace that with baptism or replace it with some other
    16:22
    Sacrament or some other, you know participation on your part. This is why I try to explain the
    16:27
    Church of Christ It's not that they the Judaizers were just believing in the wrong system of religion right there
    16:33
    You know, they maybe grew up under the the old covenant and they just couldn't let it go because they were used to it
    16:39
    No, no, there's something much deeper The whole apologetic to the book of Hebrews is don't go back to the old it never could save it could never forgive sin
    16:50
    Why are you neglecting such a great salvation in the new covenant that saves to the uttermost and forgives all of our sin past present and future
    16:58
    Not just your past sins and I have to emphasize that to the Church of Christ because that's what they believe They believe their baptism is a reset
    17:05
    Jesus wipes your slate clean and now it's up to zero and back to zero and then it's just up to you to repent
    17:13
    Every time you sin, but here's the thing the Judaizers were not just going back to the wrong system of thought
    17:20
    It's they were trying to add their works now They were specifically works of the law
    17:27
    But I try to tell the Church Christ by your working participation in baptism in principle
    17:33
    You are trying to go back to the old covenant that only condemns that Baptism that you think is washing away your past sins by your own efforts that will be used as a witness
    17:44
    Against you on the day of judgment. Yeah, because you're not trusting in Christ It's You know, you're whenever anybody adds anything to the gospel.
    17:56
    They have a motive. It's a self -righteous motive you know they and you have the
    18:04
    You have the Ceremonial People who they like the sacerdotal stuff so they they actually like These things whether it's
    18:19
    Roman Catholicism with the priesthood and and all their you know ceremonies and things like that or You have
    18:29
    Those who are religious obviously we see this all the time You got
    18:34
    Mormons you have Church of Christ. You have Jehovah's Witnesses. You have all these people who who like the ceremonies
    18:42
    But The reason that they like the ceremonies is because they believe that they save them
    18:48
    That they justify them in Scripture does not allow it. It leaves no room for any of that and then obviously
    18:56
    They have Acts 2 38 Which I'm glad that you brought up in your opening statement.
    19:02
    Yeah Context is king Sometimes that's what that says back there, right?
    19:09
    Yeah But now I have to I have to leave up the it don't mean that because I mean it
    19:16
    I'll read I'll read Romans 5 1 like you've alluded to that therefore we've been justified by faith
    19:23
    Right, and they'll be like it don't mean that and I'm like, okay We gotta we gotta go the distance here and define our terms.
    19:28
    I see. Yeah Yeah, that's for sure and I love love
    19:35
    Romans 5 Because Usually I'll go to Romans 5 or both justification, but then also
    19:43
    The federal headship of Adam and then Christ, you know all in Adam die. Mm -hmm all in Christ are made alive and and that's that's our only hope is is
    19:55
    Christ what he accomplished on the cross his life his death his burial resurrection and Who he is? hmm,
    20:00
    I always try to mention that because then you have the people who They they're like, oh, yeah,
    20:06
    I believe in all that but do you believe in who he is? Hmm. Well, he was a good man
    20:12
    Nope, you've missed it completely He's God in human flesh if you deny the Trinity now,
    20:18
    I always tell people it's like you can be confused on the Trinity Yeah, but the moment you deny it you're denying parts of the gospel.
    20:25
    Mm -hmm So I want to piggyback on that. Yeah, you got to meet
    20:31
    Keith Foskey at the conference. I did I did. Yeah Yeah, so incredible man had lunch.
    20:36
    Yeah. Oh, man He's so he's organically funny like that's who he is.
    20:42
    And that's what's awesome So got to meet him too, and he had me on his channel to talk about Lutherans their understanding of baptismal regeneration you know in the
    20:51
    Church of Christ because he's like Jeremiah and I might need some help with this because I Can kind of understand the mindset of why
    20:57
    Church of Christ or a cult? It's kind of a baptismal Justification mindset having your passings remitted in the water
    21:04
    That's what they'll say you contact the blood of Christ and the watery graves of baptism
    21:10
    And he's like, what do you do with Lutherans? And I told Keith I was like look this is actually a really difficult question
    21:17
    That I've spent a lot of time talking through and I was challenged to think through this because I've debated
    21:24
    Lutherans on baptism, you know, I mean, yeah And this is and it goes back to a point you just made like with the trend you can't be informed of the
    21:32
    Trinity and Deny it and be saved However, you can affirm the Trinity be confused and definitely your articulation about it could be all over the place
    21:41
    But in your heart, you're not denying it. That's actually my upbringing. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church We rarely said the word
    21:48
    Trinity, but I knew it was reality didn't understand it. The Illustration was a man a single man can be a father son and brother and that's kind of like the
    21:59
    Trinity and we know that's You know, that's heretical, right? That's like it's like water.
    22:05
    No, that's modalism. That's here. No. Yeah, I start thinking that's modalism Patrick Yeah, how dare you
    22:12
    Patrick? So when it comes to justification by faith alone
    22:18
    The Lutherans will hearken that to the rooftops going all the back to Martin Luther himself Praise God used
    22:25
    Martin Luther mightily in church history out of the darkness light You know out of the darkness of Rome was that gospel light that justification by faith apart from works?
    22:35
    Yeah, what I told Keith was Lutherans seem to try to hold two things that don't work together
    22:44
    Yeah, and I think they have a busted view of the covenants and so forth but they in one hand will hold to Justification by faith alone and they'll try to hold to baptismal regeneration, right?
    22:55
    And I'm saying those things can't but with the Lutherans I do see a lot of their doctrine reflecting a lot of the early church fathers and you know being
    23:04
    Reformed Baptist I don't think the early church were Identically Reformed Baptist today.
    23:10
    I think they were working through a lot of things I think justification by faith alone and sola scriptura is
    23:16
    Embedded in the early church fathers and the debate rages on with Roman Catholics on those things, right?
    23:21
    But I don't think they had the balance of view of baptism You know, there was a lot of baptism by immersion going on I think they are trying to make heads or tails about what's going on with with baptism in what way is it sanctifying?
    23:36
    And sure they they thought that that was maybe identical with being born again We would say that's impossible because we have a an anthropology that hates
    23:44
    God, you know, right? So I'm very charitable when it comes to the early church in Lutherans because I don't think they
    23:55
    I think as long as you don't deny justification by faith alone
    24:00
    Then you can be in kind of a realm of merciful inconsistency
    24:05
    But there are a number of groups that fundamentally deny justification by faith alone
    24:11
    Roman Catholicism since Trent denies sola gratia and sola fide and I'm like, okay you did that to yourself so when we look at We'll just say saints of history that come before Trent Very gracious towards them because they're not a part of that era that Anathematized in my mind the only gospel that can save right?
    24:32
    So that's how and then the Church of Christ Well along with the other cults will go straight to James to to say all you see
    24:39
    This is the only time that faith alone is mentioned and it says not and I'm like, okay Well context is king.
    24:45
    We gotta go explain what's being discussed there, but it does that make sense? I think as long as you don't deny
    24:51
    Sola fide and there's maybe merciful inconsistencies or confusion. I'm not willing to boot someone out of the kingdom
    24:59
    It's but when they carry that hard denial fully informed of what we're meaning then to me you've committed that Galatian one
    25:06
    Harrison Mm -hmm. Yeah, it's Usually my answer with with Lutherans and this was brought up on the post
    25:14
    I made About baptism if you believe that baptism saves you you're not saved and and that is a like that the context of that was responding to Church of Christ friend of mine his mom was on the phone and on speakerphone and she was talking to somebody and They were complaining about somebody
    25:40
    Not living right and they were baptized and I was like that's because baptism doesn't save you and that went into a debate between me and them over the phone and and me trying to preach the gospel to them, but Yeah, they kept
    25:58
    They can I encourage I encourage you with something? Yeah. Yeah So what I like to say is baptism does not justify us
    26:05
    Because when we say baptism doesn't save because I agree with you because that's what we're already meaning by saves
    26:11
    Yeah, what they want to immediately do is say well you're denying First Peter 3 21 and Mark 16 16 now
    26:19
    There's a whole context and but what I've noticed is they can't tell me I'm wrong when
    26:25
    I say baptism doesn't justify us the closest verse that they will push is I think it's 1st
    26:31
    Corinthians 6 11 you you have you were washed right? Right. You were sanctified Justified in the name of our
    26:38
    Lord Jesus Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit And so there's an assumption with wash there I'm over here like look
    26:43
    Titus 3 5 1st Corinthians 6 11 You're gonna make your case that wash always means a wet immersion in baptism, right?
    26:51
    Oh, that's that's something that gets the conversation in the direction that I want to go is saying baptism never justifies a person
    26:59
    Yeah, and and there's there was it was kind of clickbaity. Hmm the way.
    27:05
    Oh, I see the way that I said it Sometimes you got to draw them out of the woodwork
    27:10
    Exactly But the reason why I did that is It's because I was talking with Church of Christ and I wanted to see
    27:20
    How many people was gonna comment on it? And the biggest response was I guess all the Lutherans are out and I'm thinking
    27:29
    Well, not all of them. We've got a lot of them. Yes Because it's case by case.
    27:35
    Yeah, it is case by case It is person by person and if they go consistent in Martin Luther's inconsistency
    27:44
    Then they're not saved if they're trusting in their baptism. They don't know the Lord Yeah, no, that's a great point because I forget the
    27:52
    Latin of what we're getting into. It's either the work working like you're talking about the
    27:59
    Ex -opera operato. I cannot remember the Latin but it gets into this fundamental distinction
    28:05
    Are you trusting in the sacrament itself to do the work? Or is it the person's trust that we would come along say in the finished work of Christ?
    28:15
    well You know the the timing of when I remember Calvin and his commentaries He was he was pretty gracious with people being regenerated before during or after baptism
    28:26
    Now, I'm not Presbyterian so I don't have to agree with Calvin on that I think it's painfully obvious and this goes back to our view of the
    28:35
    Covenant that you you have to profess faith in Christ in order to receive the sign of the new covenant that oh
    28:43
    By the way is better than the sign of the old covenant. So to be regeneration
    28:49
    Definitionally like to be people Roman Catholics can point me to everyone they want to in church history and I value church history
    28:55
    But I tell people the church has been sanctified Overtime now,
    29:02
    I'm all for simple reform on I can look back and always find the true gospel that's always saved but we
    29:08
    I I say we see growth we see reform and things are getting refined and that's
    29:13
    Yeah, yeah, I don't wanna get all preachy. Oh, no. No, you're good. That's that's good stuff.
    29:19
    I I talked to a friend of mine All the time about this kind of stuff when
    29:26
    He he complains about all the the division and everything because some people do divide
    29:33
    With others obviously on eschatology on baptism when they shouldn't, you know, Presbyterian Reform Baptist But Our job isn't to Divide over secondary tertiary issues if they fall into those categories
    29:52
    Church of Christ baptism Does not fall into those categories so we divide with the cults
    30:02
    But like I was telling him I was like When you look back at the early church
    30:07
    You see a lot of problems when you read Galatians, you see a lot of problems and I mean
    30:15
    There are probably churches like Galatia I'm sorry, first Corinthians the church in Corinth That say
    30:23
    Galatians, I guess I did why Galatia had its issues too. I mean, I'm you're right with both.
    30:29
    All right, but Then you look down through church history and you see these things being refined.
    30:37
    I mean we had Baptists being drowned Right, yeah, and we had
    30:43
    I cannot remember his name but he was down in the terror hole when Martin Luther was nearby and he knew about it because He believed what the
    30:55
    Bible said about baptism and so he didn't have his children baptized and so they put him in a hole for like six or seven years until he died and So we're seeing these things being refined we're even seeing you know what
    31:13
    I see is a great refining in eschatology where you have this push
    31:19
    Eschatology matters and it does it's not what you divide over unless they go where into the heresy of full preterism
    31:27
    And and that's really where we divide but you have people that have very strong opinions and they don't know how to have their opinions and not divide mm -hmm
    31:39
    You've been through that Yeah, I try to encourage people to learn This this under have this understanding of theological triage meaning that not everything is a first -tier gospel issue like the
    31:54
    Independent fundamental Baptist a lot of those that you disagree with them on one point and then you're out
    31:59
    You're out you're kicked out of the kingdom Church Christ are like that a lot and I've noticed it's the heavy legalistic groups that are that Fundamentalism where everything is a first -tier issue
    32:11
    I've tried to explain like this What I believe is first here is you gotta believe in the right
    32:16
    Jesus and you got to receive the right Jesus the way that he prescribed and kind of backing up in the conversation a little bit you gotta believe that Jesus is
    32:25
    The second person of the triune God who took on flesh and is the God man
    32:31
    That's kind of first step and by the way full preterist will redefine Jesus no longer being the
    32:37
    God man. So I tell people yes this this heresy has Redefined everything in Christianity Yeah But and then and then receiving the right
    32:47
    Jesus the way that he prescribed My mind is equally important with believing the right Jesus, which is by faith apart from your works
    32:54
    Yeah, so you can tell me you believe in the Trinity all day long but if you're if you are talking about the necessity of your baptism or talking about the necessity of a
    33:05
    Sacrament or you're working participation in any way You have committed the
    33:11
    Galatian one heresy Even if you're trying to tell me well, I'm not doing works of the Mosaic law
    33:16
    I'm like you are doing exactly what the Judaizers are doing even though they were doing it with the the law of Moses you in principle are
    33:27
    No longer holding to this law gospel Distinction you're obliterating that and you're making the gospel law and that's really the fundamental problem that the
    33:36
    Judaizers were having When Jesus talks about you can't put old wine in new wineskins, he is not talking about just the
    33:44
    Old Covenant he's talking about the perversion of The the Mosaic law in the Old Covenant that is a legalism
    33:51
    Trying to mix that with the new gospel covenant and they're incompatible, right?
    33:57
    They don't work So I'm just saying the Pharisees of old Especially of Second Temple Jews, they got that wrong in all the the works righteous religions of the world and the cults are doing that kind of same
    34:11
    Galatian one heresy and That's why when you see my debates I wore for definitions of terms and yeah,
    34:19
    I tell people don't like that because I'm not gonna if you I'm not gonna let them define terms
    34:25
    I understand right if I don't define these biblical terms the enemy will So I will spend all the necessary time defining terms and then being consistent with those terms when we go to proof texts
    34:35
    Always looking at context, right? Amen Yeah, it's it's it's really really really important Were you were you able to watch my last debate that I had with the
    34:47
    Church of Christ minister on baptism? I think that was the one that I was
    34:52
    I Listened to your opening statement. I hadn't gotten all the way through it Because it's been a very busy busy.
    35:01
    Oh, yeah. Well, I was gonna say I won't spoil you just look forward to the cross -ex I just want to let you know there.
    35:07
    Yeah, but you may remember So a lot of people don't understand why I'm going so like in my opening statement the the thesis
    35:16
    I should say is was written water baptism is Necessary for our justification before God a lot of people scratch their head and think why doesn't
    35:25
    Jeremiah go to acts 238 and the baptismal proof text to negate You know the the affirmative
    35:32
    Because I'm saying this debate no one realizes it but is about justification Right.
    35:39
    Yep. The affirmative is gonna go all to the proof text. They're gonna beg the question They're gonna come up with their own definition of baptism and and just kind of redefine everything
    35:48
    So for me, there's kind of two parts you maybe remember this in my opening statement I defined six terms and then
    35:55
    I went to a parable. Do you remember which one it was? Trying to think of it it was the parable of the
    36:03
    Pharisee and the tax collector. Yes Yes, because that gets to the heart of the disagreement everyone so what
    36:11
    Baptist and Church Christ have historically done is they've gotten in You know bickering matches over acts 238 in the proof text you're not gonna make much headway
    36:22
    He's gonna have a good point over here. He's gonna have a good point and they're just gonna disagree disagree disagree But what are the things already being assumed in acts 238?
    36:32
    Well a bias from the Church Christ and Roman Catholics are Some kind of works are okay to participate in for your justification before God and I'm over here saying okay if we hold the faith alone and we're gonna be consistent with what
    36:47
    Genesis 15 6 said with what Jesus taught on in the Gospels and what Paul preaches on through the book of Romans Galatians and We see demonstrate in the book of Acts.
    36:57
    Well, there's more fundamental issues afoot and So in my six definitions and I try to encourage people if you can
    37:05
    Understand these six terms this will help you for most of the heavy lifting when you go to any proof text in these kind of conversations
    37:12
    I said you got to understand faith works justification sanctification
    37:19
    Baptism and the word obedience or obey Yes, when you understand how those words relate to each other, but are different they all have different semantic no domain
    37:29
    Faith is not works. Yes, you can't ultimately separate them But they must be distinguished and then the same thing with justification sanctification
    37:38
    If you understand that well that acts 238 is not a big not a big deal
    37:43
    No, there are there are more nuanced points But you're equipped to understand that a repentant faith is what justifies you before God and now we are called to obey in sanctifying works to a command to demonstrate our faith to the world to give glory to God and so, you know,
    38:02
    I got accused in my debate of allowing my Systematic and biblical theology to override the proof text and I'm like dude
    38:11
    You got to define terms and when you walk away with the conclusion, you better believe that better be consistent in light of everything else and Yeah, one thing that I I always point out is what happened directly before acts 238
    38:29
    Mm -hmm They were cut to the heart they listened to the Peter preach the gospel.
    38:35
    Yeah. Yeah yeah, so I mean when you see and There's there's two two things that where they were cut to the heart.
    38:44
    There was The three thousand and then there was the people who didn't
    38:50
    Believe right right and in chapter eight. I believe it was when Stephen was preaching of the book of Acts and And So Peter preaches the gospel, but what kind of response?
    39:05
    Would you expect from people who believe what was preached? What should we do to be saved?
    39:13
    Mm -hmm. They believed what was preached They believed that what he said was true because God pierced them with the gospel
    39:22
    So good. Yeah. Yeah, and so the heart of the disagreement is how one receives the gospel remember
    39:29
    You gotta believe the right Jesus and then you gotta receive the right Jesus the way that he told us Yeah, so that's that's the big disagreement with like the
    39:36
    Church of Christ There's a ton of disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church for for other things But if we're equipped with definitions of words, not only, you know appealing to be dag and lexical sources
    39:47
    But knowing other clear scriptures that give us that definition like Hebrews 11 1 now faith is and I'm like, okay
    39:55
    That's probably a good workable definition that the scripture itself is giving. Yeah the assurance
    40:01
    Of things hoped for and there's other good translation that say the the substance, right?
    40:06
    It's this idea that you have firm trust in the promise of God, even though you can't see it with your physical
    40:12
    Eye, you know it to be real in your heart. That's why Hebrews 11 3 says by faith we
    40:17
    Understand right we get reason we get Understanding we put our faith in God that he formed the world, right?
    40:25
    That's the only necessary foundation to have understanding at all or or truth or knowledge and so my point is
    40:33
    Assurance is that firm trust which is of the heart and then he says Conviction of things hoped for and so conviction is an inward assurance
    40:42
    That's going to live life differently in our works a faith. Yeah moving right working outward
    40:49
    And so my point is that's that's crucial and then when you have that in mind with what Jesus taught the
    40:55
    Old Testament taught and Galatians Romans a lot of these epistles. It's clear already out of the gate that it's repentance that Forgives someone's sins right a repentant faith and you can demonstrate that a number of different ways but people want to hang on to the second imperative and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and If you understand what baptism is it's a
    41:20
    Ceremonial right in water that signifies that pictures that represents these beautiful Realities that God has already done in a believer's heart and life
    41:30
    Like you said already being cut to the heart But that'll get abused and so that's why we we have to do the heavy lifting of defining our terms
    41:37
    Otherwise the enemy will do it for us, right? Yeah, that's good
    41:43
    Real quick good. The reason why that parable is so good is Because justification like you were saying earlier has always been by grace through faith apart from works
    41:55
    Yeah, now that they want to go against the grain by all means, but I'm not gonna grant your presuppositions and assumptions
    42:02
    We understand the strong consistency. That's the just shall live by faith This has been a reality from faith to faith that that pattern of the gospel that even we see in seed form in the
    42:14
    Old Testament So Jesus teaches on justification. He talks about two men that are radically separate from one another and so anyway
    42:24
    Jesus paints the picture of justification by faith alone meaning apart from any of your works any any of your
    42:30
    Accomplishments works the law none of that contributes because the Old Covenant Condemns, you know,
    42:37
    I mean, right and I'm not gonna spoil it because I cannot wait to get your thoughts on some of the cross sex and the rebuttal time but yeah
    42:47
    That right there those six terms that was was talking about and then that parable that gets straight to the heart and core of the issue right, and it's like People will obviously say well the
    43:03
    Old Covenant didn't didn't kill or anything like that it's like What's it's?
    43:10
    the law of God Cannot justify you. Mm -hmm. What it does is it stirs up the sin that's in you.
    43:17
    Mm -hmm and shows you how sinful you are By Affecting you being that it's good and you're not
    43:28
    So it was never if someone wants to quabble over the old the
    43:34
    Old Covenant The law doesn't kill and then I asked I asked the question then why did
    43:40
    Paul called the Old Covenant the ministry of death Help me out. Exactly exactly and Because there there are a lot of people confused on it but when you're
    43:55
    Reading through the Old Covenant the old the law and everything you're watching
    44:00
    Moses slosh the water on the blood on the people He said
    44:06
    I've given you blessing cursing
    44:12
    Well, you can't earn the blessing now Obedience was temporal blessing sure in that sense, but you can't keep it perfectly.
    44:24
    That's why King David, what did he say? Over and over again. I love your law.
    44:30
    I've gone astray from your law I love your law your your word. Have I hidden my heart that I might not sin against you.
    44:37
    I've Sinned Hmm, you know, so you're you're seeing this
    44:44
    Played out in a in a man after God's own heart King David and then we see
    44:51
    Psalm 51. Well, if you're justified by obedience Well, he's done for yeah, because he's absolutely
    44:59
    Disobedient to the law of God by committing murder and Well, he did a census he committed murder and adultery and all these things
    45:10
    But you even Moses Moses didn't keep the law perfectly right even though he was the prophet of the
    45:19
    Old Testament He sinned and he was he didn't make it to the promised land did he right?
    45:26
    No, yeah, he didn't I Wanted to add something to what you're saying
    45:34
    Galatians 3 kind of speaks to the purpose of the law And we know that it was meant to be a tutor until Christ came right and that's that's the thing that old
    45:45
    Johnny Mac Did a great job of really emphasizing but it wasn't until a covenant theology came along and just wrecked my world
    45:51
    Because I would read Galatians 3 10 and Did not feel the gravity of what
    45:57
    I feel I understand now for all who rely on works The law are under a curse for it is written curse
    46:04
    It be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law and do them
    46:11
    Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law for the righteous shall live by faith
    46:21
    And you know James 2 10 just talked about a few some about one point law It's as though you shattered the whole thing and it gets back to God is holy.
    46:29
    He demands perfection that was one big point of Jesus in the the Sermon on the Mount and when you go back to the principle of works
    46:39
    You are going back to an old covenant paradigm that only kills and if you're not
    46:47
    Perfect then you've shattered the whole thing because God is holy and just and he punishes law breakers
    46:54
    Yeah and I don't I don't ever get to this long enough with Church Christ because we're always in Acts 2 38 and the proof text and I'm like All right, you know if you read the verses before and after it that does the heavy lifting by the way
    47:09
    But do you have a law written on your heart? We might even call it, you know a theonomic principle.
    47:15
    That's right Transcendental meaning eternal like God has never denied himself and his holy character and there ain't no way
    47:23
    You keep the law the moral law of God perfectly either because we can't right
    47:29
    So and you mentioned this earlier Romans 5 the church Christ Do not like talking about Romans 4 into 5 because they deny that Adam represented us in any way
    47:42
    You gotta think they're full -on Pelagian. So they're born. Yeah, and it's our Environment that corrupts us
    47:48
    Randy, right? It wasn't that you were born with an inherited Corrupt nature. They don't want nothing to do with that But then that's gonna have you're gonna have a problem when we step into Romans 5 that you know
    48:00
    All men die because of one man's transgression and the beauty is but we can be represented by another man
    48:07
    And be represented by him You got trust in all of who he is and what he did and not a divided trust in What obedience that you can bring to the table?
    48:18
    That's the whole point of counting the cost of discipleship is This is a trust that's willing to leave everything and have your your gaze set on the only
    48:28
    Savior right, so I've had to scale that language barrier Randy of just Figuring out what the
    48:34
    Church of Christ mean because they know the same Christian ease we do but we mean way different things by it
    48:40
    Oh, yeah and it's it's very interesting because a lot of what they say
    48:47
    Sounds very and they're probably really not gonna like this but sounds very much in the same vein as Mormons I Would I would take it a step further a lot of people know the
    49:00
    Mormons are Whacko, you know, I mean, right now I think the Church of Christ are more dangerous because they use the 66 66 books of the
    49:08
    Bible and they know the Christian ease and They actually flew under the radar of Walter Martins the kingdom of the cults
    49:17
    You won't see the Church Christ or Seventh -day Adventist. They're both restorationist groups, right? It's because they use so much terminology as the the
    49:25
    Protestants and evangelicals So to your point, I think the COC are more dangerous than the
    49:32
    Mormons, yeah yeah, and that's that's the danger of Colts that look very similar to us and speak very similar to us, but when you press them on Justification when you press them on the gospel, they just add that little bit of poison.
    49:50
    That'll kill you It means I've looked at this way too. They want to ultimately
    49:56
    Redefine Faith into faithfulness. That's the subtlety of what they're doing and they can do it in a lot of different ways
    50:03
    But that's the core of what they're doing and then they're trying to loosen the understanding of works They'll say well if you're doing the works of God Then you're not doing a human work and what they mean is the works of God is code for your obedience to a list of Commands and I'm like, oh
    50:20
    I figured you out because we look to the works of God and in John 6 or Colossians 2
    50:27
    That's not what's being talked about, you know And right would rightly say regeneration is the work of God because we were passive We were at the thing that we were active in was going against God spitting in his face.
    50:41
    We are rebel We were like the Apostle Paul or Saul of Tarsus going down the road of Damascus if we're active in any sense
    50:48
    It's in spiritual rebellion, but Paul calls that being dead in your sins and trespasses Yeah, so regeneration truly this born -again experience is from above and that is where the eye is proper not
    51:00
    I obeyed I you know give tithes of all that I get I Was baptized right?
    51:06
    It's the eye is proper and saying no God says I will take out that heart of stone and I will give you a heart of flesh and you see the
    51:14
    I mentioned so many many times because Salvation is a
    51:19
    Work of God and that's not code for you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and just being more obedient than the next person exactly, and the the only other eye that we should say is that I Was a sinner against God and deserved his wrath and there's nothing
    51:38
    I can do to save me But Randy the people at Pentecost said what must we do?
    51:46
    And you're telling me I can't do anything See, that's that's the exact we get and I tell people doing the will of God Obeying doesn't always mean works
    51:58
    You can't write obey the gospel by repentance and faith and believing and that's not your works
    52:04
    That is a heart trusting in Jesus and not trusting in yourself So I'm telling you
    52:09
    I've had to scale the language barrier They they really want to own the fact that there are some works that play a part in your justification
    52:17
    Just not all works like works of law or works of merit or works of the flesh I'm telling you and I just say tell me what the definition of works is that you're already
    52:27
    Assuming when you're giving me different kinds of works exactly. I actually don't want to tell you that because they know they're hung exactly and That's the problem with Church of Christ cult and it's
    52:44
    It's rampant around here. There are different pockets, but around here is pretty pretty thick with Church of Christ and I think this is gonna be helpful for people who
    52:59
    God is going to bring to himself. Hmm, right? Yeah, cuz I get accused of being mean and You know speaking of Galatians Was Paul mean when he said to the
    53:09
    Judaizers have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth? Mm -hmm and so my heart is
    53:16
    I want to declare the truth in love and since we trust God to save to the uttermost and He gives the increase and his word doesn't return void my heart and prayer like yours is
    53:26
    That God's sheep that are trapped in this cult will hear the truth of the gospel and he would save them out of it
    53:33
    And I do think you know, we're not saved based on you know How much theology we know like there are truly regenerate people saved by amazing grace in the
    53:44
    Church of Christ Believing in Christ alone in spite of what's being taught to them.
    53:50
    So by us pursuing them in evangelism and apologetics
    53:55
    Maybe by God's grace They will be saved out of it into a healthy church to flourish in their walk with Christ So when people are just like Jeremiah, you know debatings mean it can be and it can be done poorly
    54:07
    But it can also be done in a way that edifies the hearers and we trust God's Word going forth and it'll accomplish all of its purpose
    54:16
    Yeah, absolutely Yeah That's good. That's really good.
    54:23
    I I did enjoy your debate review and you touched on a lot of that with fish
    54:33
    Heard that you know, I was like, why is he calling the calling him the fish bone? I know his last name's
    54:38
    Fisher Is that's I was thinking We want to make a segment called the fit
    54:44
    Something like the fish bone and the dog and have a funny graphic with it But I'm pretty sure he calls himself that I've always
    54:52
    I thought that was hilarious I was cracking up. I thought did
    54:57
    Jeremiah give him that nickname because that's hilarious Oh Well tray is awesome. We're about to we're gonna do a part two of my debate review coming up soon
    55:06
    So look forward to that. It's funny So this I've not told anybody else this but Marlon Wilson at the gospel truth debate platform
    55:14
    Yeah, he reached out to me. I guess was early today He asked if me and Trey would be willing to do a two -on -two debate with two
    55:22
    Rando Church Christ and I just said oh, I'm down. I'm right. I'm good today I was like everything is super fresh on my mind
    55:30
    So anyway, we'll see if anything comes about with that That would be cool.
    55:35
    You're gonna have to let me know when that happens if it does Yeah, I'm friends with with Marlon he's
    55:45
    Blessing for sure. That's a solid dude right there. Yeah, he is. Yeah, he is Some some of those debates that he he kind of hosts
    55:54
    Yeah, they go Yeah, they go they go he did pretty quick. Sometimes He has a hard job and I know he wants to let the interlocutors kind of duke it out
    56:06
    But that's such a like if both people aren't committed to being cordial It can get out of hand quick.
    56:13
    It just takes one of the two, but I think overall he does a fantastic job I don't know if you knew that but we flew
    56:20
    Marlon from California to Jonesboro, Arkansas To host his first live in -person debate between me and another and a
    56:28
    Church of Christ minister about two years ago Oh, that's awesome Yep, I did not know that.
    56:34
    Yep. It was incredible. I got to debate Church Christ preacher on baptism in front of a crowd of 200 people or so and The majority was
    56:45
    Church Christ and Randy the first few rows were just all Church Christ giving me the most scathing
    56:50
    Looks you could imagine it I don't know what this says about me But I loved every second of it because they had to listen to this
    56:57
    Baptist Explain the context of Acts 2 38 mark 16 16 first Peter 3 21 and all the rest and I had him trapped
    57:04
    They couldn't go anywhere. Yeah, that's awesome. I Love it The Lord will use it for sure
    57:12
    Amen Man yeah, that's that's awesome. So if you would tell all the the listeners where they can find you
    57:21
    I know you have YouTube. Do you have a podcast on like the podcast apps yet? Not yet That was the key word not yet.
    57:29
    I do have a website the apologetic dog calm. It's getting revamped. I'm so excited I got a web designer that's got all these cool ideas and this gentleman is a
    57:37
    Christian and he is doing this Out of a labor of love like will not let me pay him because he's like this is for Kingdom purposes
    57:45
    Jeremy I'm like, okay, okay So I just I got a lot of things in the works
    57:50
    Like I have a whole list of things that I'm just wanting to revamp. I only got a new studio This is incredible because I'm at my house.
    57:57
    I can do more content. I love the whole going live thing Yeah of watching like Anthony Rogers and guys and it's like man, they they crank out live content all the time
    58:07
    But it's so much easier when you just hit go and I have a stream dick That allows me to just like change the scenes of when
    58:15
    I'm doing stuff And my son is you don't have to do a you don't have to do any editing when it's done. It's done
    58:20
    You know, I mean, yeah the YouTube channel The apologetic dog is where you people can find the majority of my content.
    58:27
    This will eventually be put on to podcast I have something in the works where I'm gonna be on.
    58:34
    I heart radio in the near future and There's a ton of opportunity to put all my content
    58:39
    It there it's integrated with some Christian platforms and it just reaches a super broad audience so I hope to be able to do a live radio called in discussion and I Still have a full -time job as a hospice chaplain, right?
    58:54
    And my heart is To be full -time at 12 -5 where I serve as a pastor at I'm in the near future and so if that happens then we'll just see what the
    59:03
    Lord does with the apologetics ministry because Randy my church family is my biggest support along with my wife
    59:11
    Right because they're just like the Lord has gifted you Jeremiah in certain ways that we want you to be a gift to the rest of the body and so to have that support behind you means all the world and I've told people if you're not a member of a healthy church, not just a you know
    59:27
    Evangelical church and it's just barely understands the right gospel. That's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about somewhere where there's gospel culture deep holistic discipleship
    59:38
    Yeah, so when you have that and that's that that's the home base of them saying hey
    59:44
    We want to help support you in these ways man. Sky's the limit. So I'm just really excited for whatever doors and opportunities the
    59:50
    Lord gives me Amen Amen. Well praise God for that. I appreciate your brother.
    59:56
    I love brother. It was wonderful meeting you in person and And Yeah, Lord willing all that will go through pretty soon
    01:00:05
    Yes. Well Randy, thank you so much for having me on we'll have to do it again man Absolutely, and next time we will talk about ninjas
    01:00:15
    Yes, and what we're gonna figure out the time zone difference and yes Yeah, it was an hour later here than it was there sorry, but It's it's kind of funny because when
    01:00:31
    I was hosting passing the torch With Andrew Schumacher He's an hour
    01:00:39
    Before which meant that I had to start at 9 o 'clock anyway and Yeah, every time
    01:00:48
    I do that I'm dog -tired the next day, but it's it's well worth it and it's a blessing Hi, by the way,
    01:00:54
    I was pulling for you on the the dead men walking podcast I Appreciate it.
    01:01:00
    I was pulling for you, man. Yeah, man. That was a blast I I knew the moment that I seen that I was against the dividing line.
    01:01:07
    I was like, yeah I'm I'm I'm a fish in a barrel. I'm about to take a 12 -gauge shotgun slug.
    01:01:13
    What an honor to be no Like sphere with dr. I'm over here like that's incredible Yeah, it was pretty awesome and Greg.
    01:01:22
    He texts me. He's like, I'm sorry for your luck You're against James White and I'm like, yeah,
    01:01:27
    I'm I'm done for like it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. It's an honor Well, alright brother,
    01:01:34
    I hope you have a wonderful evening and we'll definitely do this again, thanks brother god bless it
    01:01:40
    All right, brother god bless Real quick. I just want to thank you for listening to the podcast
    01:01:46
    It is so much fun to make but it's definitely not free and it takes a lot of work