Interview on BAPTISM w/ @wreckedtoreformedstudios7138

The Apologetic Dog

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00:02

This is wrecked to reformed Welcome back to rectal reform podcast.

00:25

I'm your host Randy Atkins and we have a guest The apologetic dog

00:32

How are you brother? Randy I'm doing wonderful. Thank you for being gracious and waiting on me.

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I was having to put the apologetic puppy to sleep baby JJ Yeah For those of you who don't know this is

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Jeremiah Nortier our brother from another mother in Christ And as his sign says it don't mean it it don't mean that Hey, we got to meet.

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What was it about a month ish ago at In Tullahoma at the Y Calvinism conference.

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It was so good getting to meet you and your wife in person yeah, it was a blessing meeting you brother and I We got a picture together didn't we

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I think so. We I try to get those selfies when I can right? Yeah, it was trippy meeting people in person that you've seen like on social media

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It's just I'm you know who I met that was just I was starstruck, but I kind of couldn't believe it

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It was Todd frill. I met at g3 cuz he's so tall He's so intentional talking to you and his hands are like giant mitts

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So he's one while I was just talking to him just kind of nodding my head freakishly tall frill.

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Uh -huh. I Remember when he was hosting What was it it was

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Was it the way the master or something? I remember they did a collab way back in the day him and like right come over to them

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Yeah, I remember that because I was watching that kind of stuff right after I was saved

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But no, it was the Strange fire conference. You remember that?

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Okay, so that's also where I found out about him I was like who is this knucklehead who is hilarious and I don't know if he gave a plug or I looked up his name

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And that's how I became a wretched member was him hosting the train strange fire back when

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I was in college Yeah, man, I loved it When were you in college?

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So I went to college oh man, I got I got to check the memory banks on this one it was 2011 through 2015

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Okay Okay. See I wasn't saved until Like the end of 2016 the beginning of 2017

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Wow. Yeah, praise God. Praise God. Indeed. I lived Everybody who listened to this probably already heard the this but I lived my whole life thinking that I was a

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Christian until God humbled Me and saved me. Oh, man yeah, he put me in the hospital for three days and I was terrified and I knew by the grace of God that if I Died in that state

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I would go to hell. Mmm, and so I I had a hole in my esophagus That was bleeding air to the chest cavity

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Yeah, that was scary and I prayed didn't know what to pray how to pray I just said, you know,

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Lord, please. Please. Don't let me die. God, please. Don't let me die and At the end of those three days

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They were gonna do like an x -ray to see where the hole was so they can go in cut it open suture it up Close it back up and they couldn't find it.

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Yeah. Wow. It's gone So that was that was the beginning of God drawing me to himself

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And probably six months or so later I Understood the gospel granted repentance and faith and was saved.

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Yeah That's incredible. I love hearing people's testimony, especially the ones where there's like massive

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Providential, you know circumstances like you're talking about. I think all Johnny Mac It wasn't his testimony, but it was his call to ministry.

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That was pretty radical. I think he had a Vehicle accident and he landed on his back and was kind of looking in the sky like all right,

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Lord I just want to be all in for you. And I was I just like God takes those those trials those circumstances, but you can just see how he's redeeming the time even though the days are evil

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Like God is still right Amen Yeah, it was similar to What he he did to me not that it was

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I was in an accident or anything like that, but I Was very prideful I was a prideful arrogant jerk and had the mouth of a sailor and Yeah, yeah, and I was chasing everything the world had to offer

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And then I remember after God saved me I was I was finally reading through the

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Old Testament. I'd read through the New Testament like seven eight times by that time because I was just reading whole books of the

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Bible, you know every day and I Wanted to know that I had that hope

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Of eternal life because I was terrified. I was raised believing that you could lose your salvation

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You know one is Pentecostal church a very liberal Baptist Church and no gospel in either one of them, you know, it's very

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Of course the liberal Baptist Church was you prayed the prayer you're fine and the the one has been a coastal churches you better do better No, I think well, we'll probably touch on that here in just a little bit

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Because topic for today is baptism Yeah, so It was it was it was something because I turned away from all of it by the grace of God all that the world had to offer and I Was reading through the

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Old Testament and I got to the point in the book of Daniel where Nebuchadnezzar was humbled Mmm, he came back to himself.

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He was granted that his mind back And his understanding returned to him and he said that God is able to humble those who walk in pride

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That was me That was me and I was you know, I think the Lord for it every day for for those three days in the hospital

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Because that's what he used to draw me to himself. Mm -hmm. Amen. Amen I don't have

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Super radical experience like that. I'd tell people though, you know reformed theology does take a seemingly mundane

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Testimony and it makes us the sweetest thing that's ever happened because we believe it was a miracle

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Right people of the choice in this theology They can't call the the conversion experience a miracle from above now

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That's because they're trying to be consistent even though our heart screams No a radical change from deadness and sin not seeking

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God in the light switch coming off right even in the midst of remarkable

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Providence So, you know, what's the valley of dry bones for every one of us? Absolutely, you know, yeah, we might get to flex a little bit of our

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Reformed Baptist covenant theology guns because that's the new covenant. That's right the uttermost.

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That's right That's right and I love having this conversation with my

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Presbyterian brothers out there Because it's like You just don't understand the covenant

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That's what they'll say to us and it's like our response is no We do understand the covenant that's why we're bad this

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So I will say this though. Yeah, I was jaded Towards reformed

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Baptist covenant theology and obviously Presbyterian covenant theology because I grew up I say grew up for about eight when

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I was 21 Into my mid almost late 20s. I was very dispensational with with John MacArthur's teaching and as we were talking before we started

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Faithful man, we love him. We differ with eschatology with him now, right? But when my it's funny because when my eschatology began to shift

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I was actually preparing for my debates I was reading a lot of books and there were just a few stellar

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Arguments that just hit me different if you will and I remember the day I called the pastor

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I served with I said Nathan I don't think I'm pre mill anymore. And you know, he said I told you that would happen and we laughed and So what that did was when my eschatology shifted it allowed me to now hear

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Positive cases for post -millennial ism thought all millennial ism thought and Covenant theology because for the first time

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I wasn't committed to like a a leaky moderate dispensational Understanding and I read the kingdom of God by Jeffrey Johnson phenomenal book very similar with how with how

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Rinehan talks about the covenants and going further back to the you know 1689 federalism with Nehemiah Cox and those guys and My mind just felt like it was

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Expanded because now I I feel like I have a better grasp of how God relates to his people in terms of covenant

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So I only knew covenant theology through a Presbyterian lens because I had a lot of Presbyterian friends, right?

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And I just couldn't understand the distinctions with Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist covenant theology and like you're getting at It's it's way different.

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You know, I mean, yeah we believe that the covenant made with Abraham was cut with different blood and therefore as a

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Different covenant than the new covenant that's cut with the blood of Christ and is it that is the covenant of grace?

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So anyway, when I start when a lot of these pieces started coming together, I'm just like man I can't go back after this.

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All right Yeah, it's it's interesting because obviously Everyone From the dawn of time

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Adam and Eve all the way to the end of redemptive history Are all saved by faith alone.

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Mmm Right. I mean you go through Hebrews 11. You can't you can't just can't avoid it, but there are different covenants and Abraham was saved before the covenant and he was saved before A circumcision and he was saved long before the law.

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Mmm, so I've asked before with Roman Catholic who

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I met who actually bought my vehicle from We were driving around and I saw his his beads on his hand and I was like What's that and I was pretty sure

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I knew what it was he's like, oh that's my my prayer beads I was like, oh, okay Catholic he's like, yeah and so I asked him

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I was like so How does somebody have peace with God oh man, and he's like,

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I don't know mmm You should have said who's the blessed man.

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I Did I went to Romans 4 and And and and showed him that and then

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I asked him I was like, do you know how people in the Old Testament were saved? Mmm, he's like, well, they weren't

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I was like, yeah, we're like by faith alone Just like in Romans 4 and in Romans 3, you know 328 we we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from any works of the law and That's any works at all

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Because they would say well it's it's not works of the law it's things that are pleasing to God and I'm like and Where do you find that?

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Mmm. Mmm, you're like Last time and last time we checked the law was holy righteous and good

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Problem is this gets back into our covenant theology that law only condemns.

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Yeah. Sorry to our Presbyterian brothers It's not a different Administration of the covenant of grace.

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It is a law that condemns because it crushes If it's not a field to perfection because God is holy

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And I'm with you all these historic covenants that stack are just more of a testimony against us and Galatians telling us that we need a

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Savior that can fulfill it perfectly exactly and then

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It's like It was a really good conversation because he just sat there and listened to me preach the gospel to him for like 20 minutes

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While we're sitting in the in the parking lot and and then I I called down there because I wanted to talk to him again

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And he moved back to Louisiana. He was only here for like a week or two So you talk about Providence that yeah

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God put me there. God put him there and and that Divine appointment was was carried out according to God's will man.

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But anyway So along with that we talk about Covenants we talk about circumcision

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What is it that the law can never do? So depending on how we we want to answer this the law

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Cannot save us right? So I mean we go a different few different angles, but like it's interesting how we talk about circumcision

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I don't know if you were able to listen to all of my last debate But I brought up that Reformed Baptist Covenant theology sauce

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To a church of Christ that I promised she was scratching his head Like why does he keep talking about how the

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New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant in every way? I'm right. Oh it matters because the law you kills right?

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The law doesn't save us, right? Yeah, and so the the

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Judaizers in the early church were they fell under the the curse the anathema of Galatians chapter 1 but why was it that they fell under the curse of Galatians chapter 1 is because they added something to the gospel

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I Want to speak to that a little bit? Yeah, because Roman Catholics and the

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Church of Christ Sorry, if we're getting a little bit ahead, but I don't know you're good I've often said

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Church of Christ are Roman Catholic light. They just have less sacraments. They don't have a priest there

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They don't have a full or theology. I mean, they're full -on Pelagians like born -perfect, you know,

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I mean And so but they have a lot of shared response That's why a lot of Church of Christ will just when they leave

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Church Christ they go back to Rome Essentially, I got a book plug. I want to bring up later but They swim the

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Tiber they swim the Tiber And Going the wrong direction what quoting

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Romans 3 28 and Galatians 2 16 about how we're justified by faith in Christ apart from works a law what

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Roman Catholics and Church Christ will say Not by works the law and we're saying timeout

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Well, we're Paul's telling us what justifies us and you can put any kind of working principle in The the negative placeholder, so don't think that When you put so much emphasis on The works of the law

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I'm over here saying that's the best kind of work that you can think of you know

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I mean and it still isn't going to get you in So the fact that you want to replace that with baptism or replace it with some other

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Sacrament or some other, you know participation on your part. This is why I try to explain the

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Church of Christ It's not that they the Judaizers were just believing in the wrong system of religion right there

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You know, they maybe grew up under the the old covenant and they just couldn't let it go because they were used to it

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No, no, there's something much deeper The whole apologetic to the book of Hebrews is don't go back to the old it never could save it could never forgive sin

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Why are you neglecting such a great salvation in the new covenant that saves to the uttermost and forgives all of our sin past present and future

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Not just your past sins and I have to emphasize that to the Church of Christ because that's what they believe They believe their baptism is a reset

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Jesus wipes your slate clean and now it's up to zero and back to zero and then it's just up to you to repent

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Every time you sin, but here's the thing the Judaizers were not just going back to the wrong system of thought

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It's they were trying to add their works now They were specifically works of the law

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But I try to tell the Church Christ by your working participation in baptism in principle

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You are trying to go back to the old covenant that only condemns that Baptism that you think is washing away your past sins by your own efforts that will be used as a witness

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Against you on the day of judgment. Yeah, because you're not trusting in Christ It's You know, you're whenever anybody adds anything to the gospel.

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They have a motive. It's a self -righteous motive you know they and you have the

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You have the Ceremonial People who they like the sacerdotal stuff so they they actually like These things whether it's

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Roman Catholicism with the priesthood and and all their you know ceremonies and things like that or You have

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Those who are religious obviously we see this all the time You got

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Mormons you have Church of Christ. You have Jehovah's Witnesses. You have all these people who who like the ceremonies

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But The reason that they like the ceremonies is because they believe that they save them

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That they justify them in Scripture does not allow it. It leaves no room for any of that and then obviously

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They have Acts 2 38 Which I'm glad that you brought up in your opening statement.

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Yeah Context is king Sometimes that's what that says back there, right?

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Yeah But now I have to I have to leave up the it don't mean that because I mean it

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I'll read I'll read Romans 5 1 like you've alluded to that therefore we've been justified by faith

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Right, and they'll be like it don't mean that and I'm like, okay We gotta we gotta go the distance here and define our terms.

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I see. Yeah Yeah, that's for sure and I love love

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Romans 5 Because Usually I'll go to Romans 5 or both justification, but then also

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The federal headship of Adam and then Christ, you know all in Adam die. Mm -hmm all in Christ are made alive and and that's that's our only hope is is

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Christ what he accomplished on the cross his life his death his burial resurrection and Who he is? hmm,

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I always try to mention that because then you have the people who They they're like, oh, yeah,

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I believe in all that but do you believe in who he is? Hmm. Well, he was a good man

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Nope, you've missed it completely He's God in human flesh if you deny the Trinity now,

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I always tell people it's like you can be confused on the Trinity Yeah, but the moment you deny it you're denying parts of the gospel.

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Mm -hmm So I want to piggyback on that. Yeah, you got to meet

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Keith Foskey at the conference. I did I did. Yeah Yeah, so incredible man had lunch.

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Yeah. Oh, man He's so he's organically funny like that's who he is.

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And that's what's awesome So got to meet him too, and he had me on his channel to talk about Lutherans their understanding of baptismal regeneration you know in the

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Church of Christ because he's like Jeremiah and I might need some help with this because I Can kind of understand the mindset of why

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Church of Christ or a cult? It's kind of a baptismal Justification mindset having your passings remitted in the water

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That's what they'll say you contact the blood of Christ and the watery graves of baptism

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And he's like, what do you do with Lutherans? And I told Keith I was like look this is actually a really difficult question

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That I've spent a lot of time talking through and I was challenged to think through this because I've debated

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Lutherans on baptism, you know, I mean, yeah And this is and it goes back to a point you just made like with the trend you can't be informed of the

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Trinity and Deny it and be saved However, you can affirm the Trinity be confused and definitely your articulation about it could be all over the place

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But in your heart, you're not denying it. That's actually my upbringing. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church We rarely said the word

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Trinity, but I knew it was reality didn't understand it. The Illustration was a man a single man can be a father son and brother and that's kind of like the

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Trinity and we know that's You know, that's heretical, right? That's like it's like water.

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No, that's modalism. That's here. No. Yeah, I start thinking that's modalism Patrick Yeah, how dare you

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Patrick? So when it comes to justification by faith alone

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The Lutherans will hearken that to the rooftops going all the back to Martin Luther himself Praise God used

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Martin Luther mightily in church history out of the darkness light You know out of the darkness of Rome was that gospel light that justification by faith apart from works?

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Yeah, what I told Keith was Lutherans seem to try to hold two things that don't work together

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Yeah, and I think they have a busted view of the covenants and so forth but they in one hand will hold to Justification by faith alone and they'll try to hold to baptismal regeneration, right?

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And I'm saying those things can't but with the Lutherans I do see a lot of their doctrine reflecting a lot of the early church fathers and you know being

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Reformed Baptist I don't think the early church were Identically Reformed Baptist today.

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I think they were working through a lot of things I think justification by faith alone and sola scriptura is

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Embedded in the early church fathers and the debate rages on with Roman Catholics on those things, right?

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But I don't think they had the balance of view of baptism You know, there was a lot of baptism by immersion going on I think they are trying to make heads or tails about what's going on with with baptism in what way is it sanctifying?

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And sure they they thought that that was maybe identical with being born again We would say that's impossible because we have a an anthropology that hates

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God, you know, right? So I'm very charitable when it comes to the early church in Lutherans because I don't think they

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I think as long as you don't deny justification by faith alone

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Then you can be in kind of a realm of merciful inconsistency

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But there are a number of groups that fundamentally deny justification by faith alone

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Roman Catholicism since Trent denies sola gratia and sola fide and I'm like, okay you did that to yourself so when we look at We'll just say saints of history that come before Trent Very gracious towards them because they're not a part of that era that Anathematized in my mind the only gospel that can save right?

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So that's how and then the Church of Christ Well along with the other cults will go straight to James to to say all you see

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This is the only time that faith alone is mentioned and it says not and I'm like, okay Well context is king.

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We gotta go explain what's being discussed there, but it does that make sense? I think as long as you don't deny

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Sola fide and there's maybe merciful inconsistencies or confusion. I'm not willing to boot someone out of the kingdom

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It's but when they carry that hard denial fully informed of what we're meaning then to me you've committed that Galatian one

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Harrison Mm -hmm. Yeah, it's Usually my answer with with Lutherans and this was brought up on the post

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I made About baptism if you believe that baptism saves you you're not saved and and that is a like that the context of that was responding to Church of Christ friend of mine his mom was on the phone and on speakerphone and she was talking to somebody and They were complaining about somebody

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Not living right and they were baptized and I was like that's because baptism doesn't save you and that went into a debate between me and them over the phone and and me trying to preach the gospel to them, but Yeah, they kept

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They can I encourage I encourage you with something? Yeah. Yeah So what I like to say is baptism does not justify us

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Because when we say baptism doesn't save because I agree with you because that's what we're already meaning by saves

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Yeah, what they want to immediately do is say well you're denying First Peter 3 21 and Mark 16 16 now

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There's a whole context and but what I've noticed is they can't tell me I'm wrong when

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I say baptism doesn't justify us the closest verse that they will push is I think it's 1st

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Corinthians 6 11 you you have you were washed right? Right. You were sanctified Justified in the name of our

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Lord Jesus Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit And so there's an assumption with wash there I'm over here like look

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Titus 3 5 1st Corinthians 6 11 You're gonna make your case that wash always means a wet immersion in baptism, right?

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Oh, that's that's something that gets the conversation in the direction that I want to go is saying baptism never justifies a person

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Yeah, and and there's there was it was kind of clickbaity. Hmm the way.

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Oh, I see the way that I said it Sometimes you got to draw them out of the woodwork

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Exactly But the reason why I did that is It's because I was talking with Church of Christ and I wanted to see

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How many people was gonna comment on it? And the biggest response was I guess all the Lutherans are out and I'm thinking

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Well, not all of them. We've got a lot of them. Yes Because it's case by case.

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Yeah, it is case by case It is person by person and if they go consistent in Martin Luther's inconsistency

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Then they're not saved if they're trusting in their baptism. They don't know the Lord Yeah, no, that's a great point because I forget the

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Latin of what we're getting into. It's either the work working like you're talking about the

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Ex -opera operato. I cannot remember the Latin but it gets into this fundamental distinction

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Are you trusting in the sacrament itself to do the work? Or is it the person's trust that we would come along say in the finished work of Christ?

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well You know the the timing of when I remember Calvin and his commentaries He was he was pretty gracious with people being regenerated before during or after baptism

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Now, I'm not Presbyterian so I don't have to agree with Calvin on that I think it's painfully obvious and this goes back to our view of the

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Covenant that you you have to profess faith in Christ in order to receive the sign of the new covenant that oh

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By the way is better than the sign of the old covenant. So to be regeneration

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Definitionally like to be people Roman Catholics can point me to everyone they want to in church history and I value church history

28:55

But I tell people the church has been sanctified Overtime now,

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I'm all for simple reform on I can look back and always find the true gospel that's always saved but we

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I I say we see growth we see reform and things are getting refined and that's

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Yeah, yeah, I don't wanna get all preachy. Oh, no. No, you're good. That's that's good stuff.

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I I talked to a friend of mine All the time about this kind of stuff when

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He he complains about all the the division and everything because some people do divide

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With others obviously on eschatology on baptism when they shouldn't, you know, Presbyterian Reform Baptist But Our job isn't to Divide over secondary tertiary issues if they fall into those categories

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Church of Christ baptism Does not fall into those categories so we divide with the cults

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But like I was telling him I was like When you look back at the early church

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You see a lot of problems when you read Galatians, you see a lot of problems and I mean

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There are probably churches like Galatia I'm sorry, first Corinthians the church in Corinth That say

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Galatians, I guess I did why Galatia had its issues too. I mean, I'm you're right with both.

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All right, but Then you look down through church history and you see these things being refined.

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I mean we had Baptists being drowned Right, yeah, and we had

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I cannot remember his name but he was down in the terror hole when Martin Luther was nearby and he knew about it because He believed what the

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Bible said about baptism and so he didn't have his children baptized and so they put him in a hole for like six or seven years until he died and So we're seeing these things being refined we're even seeing you know what

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I see is a great refining in eschatology where you have this push

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Eschatology matters and it does it's not what you divide over unless they go where into the heresy of full preterism

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And and that's really where we divide but you have people that have very strong opinions and they don't know how to have their opinions and not divide mm -hmm

31:39

You've been through that Yeah, I try to encourage people to learn This this under have this understanding of theological triage meaning that not everything is a first -tier gospel issue like the

31:54

Independent fundamental Baptist a lot of those that you disagree with them on one point and then you're out

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You're out you're kicked out of the kingdom Church Christ are like that a lot and I've noticed it's the heavy legalistic groups that are that Fundamentalism where everything is a first -tier issue

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I've tried to explain like this What I believe is first here is you gotta believe in the right

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Jesus and you got to receive the right Jesus the way that he prescribed and kind of backing up in the conversation a little bit you gotta believe that Jesus is

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The second person of the triune God who took on flesh and is the God man

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That's kind of first step and by the way full preterist will redefine Jesus no longer being the

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God man. So I tell people yes this this heresy has Redefined everything in Christianity Yeah But and then and then receiving the right

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Jesus the way that he prescribed My mind is equally important with believing the right Jesus, which is by faith apart from your works

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Yeah, so you can tell me you believe in the Trinity all day long but if you're if you are talking about the necessity of your baptism or talking about the necessity of a

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Sacrament or you're working participation in any way You have committed the

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Galatian one heresy Even if you're trying to tell me well, I'm not doing works of the Mosaic law

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I'm like you are doing exactly what the Judaizers are doing even though they were doing it with the the law of Moses you in principle are

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No longer holding to this law gospel Distinction you're obliterating that and you're making the gospel law and that's really the fundamental problem that the

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Judaizers were having When Jesus talks about you can't put old wine in new wineskins, he is not talking about just the

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Old Covenant he's talking about the perversion of The the Mosaic law in the Old Covenant that is a legalism

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Trying to mix that with the new gospel covenant and they're incompatible, right?

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They don't work So I'm just saying the Pharisees of old Especially of Second Temple Jews, they got that wrong in all the the works righteous religions of the world and the cults are doing that kind of same

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Galatian one heresy and That's why when you see my debates I wore for definitions of terms and yeah,

34:19

I tell people don't like that because I'm not gonna if you I'm not gonna let them define terms

34:25

I understand right if I don't define these biblical terms the enemy will So I will spend all the necessary time defining terms and then being consistent with those terms when we go to proof texts

34:35

Always looking at context, right? Amen Yeah, it's it's it's really really really important Were you were you able to watch my last debate that I had with the

34:47

Church of Christ minister on baptism? I think that was the one that I was

34:52

I Listened to your opening statement. I hadn't gotten all the way through it Because it's been a very busy busy.

35:01

Oh, yeah. Well, I was gonna say I won't spoil you just look forward to the cross -ex I just want to let you know there.

35:07

Yeah, but you may remember So a lot of people don't understand why I'm going so like in my opening statement the the thesis

35:16

I should say is was written water baptism is Necessary for our justification before God a lot of people scratch their head and think why doesn't

35:25

Jeremiah go to acts 238 and the baptismal proof text to negate You know the the affirmative

35:32

Because I'm saying this debate no one realizes it but is about justification Right.

35:39

Yep. The affirmative is gonna go all to the proof text. They're gonna beg the question They're gonna come up with their own definition of baptism and and just kind of redefine everything

35:48

So for me, there's kind of two parts you maybe remember this in my opening statement I defined six terms and then

35:55

I went to a parable. Do you remember which one it was? Trying to think of it it was the parable of the

36:03

Pharisee and the tax collector. Yes Yes, because that gets to the heart of the disagreement everyone so what

36:11

Baptist and Church Christ have historically done is they've gotten in You know bickering matches over acts 238 in the proof text you're not gonna make much headway

36:22

He's gonna have a good point over here. He's gonna have a good point and they're just gonna disagree disagree disagree But what are the things already being assumed in acts 238?

36:32

Well a bias from the Church Christ and Roman Catholics are Some kind of works are okay to participate in for your justification before God and I'm over here saying okay if we hold the faith alone and we're gonna be consistent with what

36:47

Genesis 15 6 said with what Jesus taught on in the Gospels and what Paul preaches on through the book of Romans Galatians and We see demonstrate in the book of Acts.

36:57

Well, there's more fundamental issues afoot and So in my six definitions and I try to encourage people if you can

37:05

Understand these six terms this will help you for most of the heavy lifting when you go to any proof text in these kind of conversations

37:12

I said you got to understand faith works justification sanctification

37:19

Baptism and the word obedience or obey Yes, when you understand how those words relate to each other, but are different they all have different semantic no domain

37:29

Faith is not works. Yes, you can't ultimately separate them But they must be distinguished and then the same thing with justification sanctification

37:38

If you understand that well that acts 238 is not a big not a big deal

37:43

No, there are there are more nuanced points But you're equipped to understand that a repentant faith is what justifies you before God and now we are called to obey in sanctifying works to a command to demonstrate our faith to the world to give glory to God and so, you know,

38:02

I got accused in my debate of allowing my Systematic and biblical theology to override the proof text and I'm like dude

38:11

You got to define terms and when you walk away with the conclusion, you better believe that better be consistent in light of everything else and Yeah, one thing that I I always point out is what happened directly before acts 238

38:29

Mm -hmm They were cut to the heart they listened to the Peter preach the gospel.

38:35

Yeah. Yeah yeah, so I mean when you see and There's there's two two things that where they were cut to the heart.

38:44

There was The three thousand and then there was the people who didn't

38:50

Believe right right and in chapter eight. I believe it was when Stephen was preaching of the book of Acts and And So Peter preaches the gospel, but what kind of response?

39:05

Would you expect from people who believe what was preached? What should we do to be saved?

39:13

Mm -hmm. They believed what was preached They believed that what he said was true because God pierced them with the gospel

39:22

So good. Yeah. Yeah, and so the heart of the disagreement is how one receives the gospel remember

39:29

You gotta believe the right Jesus and then you gotta receive the right Jesus the way that he told us Yeah, so that's that's the big disagreement with like the

39:36

Church of Christ There's a ton of disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church for for other things But if we're equipped with definitions of words, not only, you know appealing to be dag and lexical sources

39:47

But knowing other clear scriptures that give us that definition like Hebrews 11 1 now faith is and I'm like, okay

39:55

That's probably a good workable definition that the scripture itself is giving. Yeah the assurance

40:01

Of things hoped for and there's other good translation that say the the substance, right?

40:06

It's this idea that you have firm trust in the promise of God, even though you can't see it with your physical

40:12

Eye, you know it to be real in your heart. That's why Hebrews 11 3 says by faith we

40:17

Understand right we get reason we get Understanding we put our faith in God that he formed the world, right?

40:25

That's the only necessary foundation to have understanding at all or or truth or knowledge and so my point is

40:33

Assurance is that firm trust which is of the heart and then he says Conviction of things hoped for and so conviction is an inward assurance

40:42

That's going to live life differently in our works a faith. Yeah moving right working outward

40:49

And so my point is that's that's crucial and then when you have that in mind with what Jesus taught the

40:55

Old Testament taught and Galatians Romans a lot of these epistles. It's clear already out of the gate that it's repentance that Forgives someone's sins right a repentant faith and you can demonstrate that a number of different ways but people want to hang on to the second imperative and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and If you understand what baptism is it's a

41:20

Ceremonial right in water that signifies that pictures that represents these beautiful Realities that God has already done in a believer's heart and life

41:30

Like you said already being cut to the heart But that'll get abused and so that's why we we have to do the heavy lifting of defining our terms

41:37

Otherwise the enemy will do it for us, right? Yeah, that's good

41:43

Real quick good. The reason why that parable is so good is Because justification like you were saying earlier has always been by grace through faith apart from works

41:55

Yeah, now that they want to go against the grain by all means, but I'm not gonna grant your presuppositions and assumptions

42:02

We understand the strong consistency. That's the just shall live by faith This has been a reality from faith to faith that that pattern of the gospel that even we see in seed form in the

42:14

Old Testament So Jesus teaches on justification. He talks about two men that are radically separate from one another and so anyway

42:24

Jesus paints the picture of justification by faith alone meaning apart from any of your works any any of your

42:30

Accomplishments works the law none of that contributes because the Old Covenant Condemns, you know,

42:37

I mean, right and I'm not gonna spoil it because I cannot wait to get your thoughts on some of the cross sex and the rebuttal time but yeah

42:47

That right there those six terms that was was talking about and then that parable that gets straight to the heart and core of the issue right, and it's like People will obviously say well the

43:03

Old Covenant didn't didn't kill or anything like that it's like What's it's?

43:10

the law of God Cannot justify you. Mm -hmm. What it does is it stirs up the sin that's in you.

43:17

Mm -hmm and shows you how sinful you are By Affecting you being that it's good and you're not

43:28

So it was never if someone wants to quabble over the old the

43:34

Old Covenant The law doesn't kill and then I asked I asked the question then why did

43:40

Paul called the Old Covenant the ministry of death Help me out. Exactly exactly and Because there there are a lot of people confused on it but when you're

43:55

Reading through the Old Covenant the old the law and everything you're watching

44:00

Moses slosh the water on the blood on the people He said

44:06

I've given you blessing cursing

44:12

Well, you can't earn the blessing now Obedience was temporal blessing sure in that sense, but you can't keep it perfectly.

44:24

That's why King David, what did he say? Over and over again. I love your law.

44:30

I've gone astray from your law I love your law your your word. Have I hidden my heart that I might not sin against you.

44:37

I've Sinned Hmm, you know, so you're you're seeing this

44:44

Played out in a in a man after God's own heart King David and then we see

44:51

Psalm 51. Well, if you're justified by obedience Well, he's done for yeah, because he's absolutely

44:59

Disobedient to the law of God by committing murder and Well, he did a census he committed murder and adultery and all these things

45:10

But you even Moses Moses didn't keep the law perfectly right even though he was the prophet of the

45:19

Old Testament He sinned and he was he didn't make it to the promised land did he right?

45:26

No, yeah, he didn't I Wanted to add something to what you're saying

45:34

Galatians 3 kind of speaks to the purpose of the law And we know that it was meant to be a tutor until Christ came right and that's that's the thing that old

45:45

Johnny Mac Did a great job of really emphasizing but it wasn't until a covenant theology came along and just wrecked my world

45:51

Because I would read Galatians 3 10 and Did not feel the gravity of what

45:57

I feel I understand now for all who rely on works The law are under a curse for it is written curse

46:04

It be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law and do them

46:11

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law for the righteous shall live by faith

46:21

And you know James 2 10 just talked about a few some about one point law It's as though you shattered the whole thing and it gets back to God is holy.

46:29

He demands perfection that was one big point of Jesus in the the Sermon on the Mount and when you go back to the principle of works

46:39

You are going back to an old covenant paradigm that only kills and if you're not

46:47

Perfect then you've shattered the whole thing because God is holy and just and he punishes law breakers

46:54

Yeah and I don't I don't ever get to this long enough with Church Christ because we're always in Acts 2 38 and the proof text and I'm like All right, you know if you read the verses before and after it that does the heavy lifting by the way

47:09

But do you have a law written on your heart? We might even call it, you know a theonomic principle.

47:15

That's right Transcendental meaning eternal like God has never denied himself and his holy character and there ain't no way

47:23

You keep the law the moral law of God perfectly either because we can't right

47:29

So and you mentioned this earlier Romans 5 the church Christ Do not like talking about Romans 4 into 5 because they deny that Adam represented us in any way

47:42

You gotta think they're full -on Pelagian. So they're born. Yeah, and it's our Environment that corrupts us

47:48

Randy, right? It wasn't that you were born with an inherited Corrupt nature. They don't want nothing to do with that But then that's gonna have you're gonna have a problem when we step into Romans 5 that you know

48:00

All men die because of one man's transgression and the beauty is but we can be represented by another man

48:07

And be represented by him You got trust in all of who he is and what he did and not a divided trust in What obedience that you can bring to the table?

48:18

That's the whole point of counting the cost of discipleship is This is a trust that's willing to leave everything and have your your gaze set on the only

48:28

Savior right, so I've had to scale that language barrier Randy of just Figuring out what the

48:34

Church of Christ mean because they know the same Christian ease we do but we mean way different things by it

48:40

Oh, yeah and it's it's very interesting because a lot of what they say

48:47

Sounds very and they're probably really not gonna like this but sounds very much in the same vein as Mormons I Would I would take it a step further a lot of people know the

49:00

Mormons are Whacko, you know, I mean, right now I think the Church of Christ are more dangerous because they use the 66 66 books of the

49:08

Bible and they know the Christian ease and They actually flew under the radar of Walter Martins the kingdom of the cults

49:17

You won't see the Church Christ or Seventh -day Adventist. They're both restorationist groups, right? It's because they use so much terminology as the the

49:25

Protestants and evangelicals So to your point, I think the COC are more dangerous than the

49:32

Mormons, yeah yeah, and that's that's the danger of Colts that look very similar to us and speak very similar to us, but when you press them on Justification when you press them on the gospel, they just add that little bit of poison.

49:50

That'll kill you It means I've looked at this way too. They want to ultimately

49:56

Redefine Faith into faithfulness. That's the subtlety of what they're doing and they can do it in a lot of different ways

50:03

But that's the core of what they're doing and then they're trying to loosen the understanding of works They'll say well if you're doing the works of God Then you're not doing a human work and what they mean is the works of God is code for your obedience to a list of Commands and I'm like, oh

50:20

I figured you out because we look to the works of God and in John 6 or Colossians 2

50:27

That's not what's being talked about, you know And right would rightly say regeneration is the work of God because we were passive We were at the thing that we were active in was going against God spitting in his face.

50:41

We are rebel We were like the Apostle Paul or Saul of Tarsus going down the road of Damascus if we're active in any sense

50:48

It's in spiritual rebellion, but Paul calls that being dead in your sins and trespasses Yeah, so regeneration truly this born -again experience is from above and that is where the eye is proper not

51:00

I obeyed I you know give tithes of all that I get I Was baptized right?

51:06

It's the eye is proper and saying no God says I will take out that heart of stone and I will give you a heart of flesh and you see the

51:14

I mentioned so many many times because Salvation is a

51:19

Work of God and that's not code for you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and just being more obedient than the next person exactly, and the the only other eye that we should say is that I Was a sinner against God and deserved his wrath and there's nothing

51:38

I can do to save me But Randy the people at Pentecost said what must we do?

51:46

And you're telling me I can't do anything See, that's that's the exact we get and I tell people doing the will of God Obeying doesn't always mean works

51:58

You can't write obey the gospel by repentance and faith and believing and that's not your works

52:04

That is a heart trusting in Jesus and not trusting in yourself So I'm telling you

52:09

I've had to scale the language barrier They they really want to own the fact that there are some works that play a part in your justification

52:17

Just not all works like works of law or works of merit or works of the flesh I'm telling you and I just say tell me what the definition of works is that you're already

52:27

Assuming when you're giving me different kinds of works exactly. I actually don't want to tell you that because they know they're hung exactly and That's the problem with Church of Christ cult and it's

52:44

It's rampant around here. There are different pockets, but around here is pretty pretty thick with Church of Christ and I think this is gonna be helpful for people who

52:59

God is going to bring to himself. Hmm, right? Yeah, cuz I get accused of being mean and You know speaking of Galatians Was Paul mean when he said to the

53:09

Judaizers have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth? Mm -hmm and so my heart is

53:16

I want to declare the truth in love and since we trust God to save to the uttermost and He gives the increase and his word doesn't return void my heart and prayer like yours is

53:26

That God's sheep that are trapped in this cult will hear the truth of the gospel and he would save them out of it

53:33

And I do think you know, we're not saved based on you know How much theology we know like there are truly regenerate people saved by amazing grace in the

53:44

Church of Christ Believing in Christ alone in spite of what's being taught to them.

53:50

So by us pursuing them in evangelism and apologetics

53:55

Maybe by God's grace They will be saved out of it into a healthy church to flourish in their walk with Christ So when people are just like Jeremiah, you know debatings mean it can be and it can be done poorly

54:07

But it can also be done in a way that edifies the hearers and we trust God's Word going forth and it'll accomplish all of its purpose

54:16

Yeah, absolutely Yeah That's good. That's really good.

54:23

I I did enjoy your debate review and you touched on a lot of that with fish

54:33

Heard that you know, I was like, why is he calling the calling him the fish bone? I know his last name's

54:38

Fisher Is that's I was thinking We want to make a segment called the fit

54:44

Something like the fish bone and the dog and have a funny graphic with it But I'm pretty sure he calls himself that I've always

54:52

I thought that was hilarious I was cracking up. I thought did

54:57

Jeremiah give him that nickname because that's hilarious Oh Well tray is awesome. We're about to we're gonna do a part two of my debate review coming up soon

55:06

So look forward to that. It's funny So this I've not told anybody else this but Marlon Wilson at the gospel truth debate platform

55:14

Yeah, he reached out to me. I guess was early today He asked if me and Trey would be willing to do a two -on -two debate with two

55:22

Rando Church Christ and I just said oh, I'm down. I'm right. I'm good today I was like everything is super fresh on my mind

55:30

So anyway, we'll see if anything comes about with that That would be cool.

55:35

You're gonna have to let me know when that happens if it does Yeah, I'm friends with with Marlon he's

55:45

Blessing for sure. That's a solid dude right there. Yeah, he is. Yeah, he is Some some of those debates that he he kind of hosts

55:54

Yeah, they go Yeah, they go they go he did pretty quick. Sometimes He has a hard job and I know he wants to let the interlocutors kind of duke it out

56:06

But that's such a like if both people aren't committed to being cordial It can get out of hand quick.

56:13

It just takes one of the two, but I think overall he does a fantastic job I don't know if you knew that but we flew

56:20

Marlon from California to Jonesboro, Arkansas To host his first live in -person debate between me and another and a

56:28

Church of Christ minister about two years ago Oh, that's awesome Yep, I did not know that.

56:34

Yep. It was incredible. I got to debate Church Christ preacher on baptism in front of a crowd of 200 people or so and The majority was

56:45

Church Christ and Randy the first few rows were just all Church Christ giving me the most scathing

56:50

Looks you could imagine it I don't know what this says about me But I loved every second of it because they had to listen to this

56:57

Baptist Explain the context of Acts 2 38 mark 16 16 first Peter 3 21 and all the rest and I had him trapped

57:04

They couldn't go anywhere. Yeah, that's awesome. I Love it The Lord will use it for sure

57:12

Amen Man yeah, that's that's awesome. So if you would tell all the the listeners where they can find you

57:21

I know you have YouTube. Do you have a podcast on like the podcast apps yet? Not yet That was the key word not yet.

57:29

I do have a website the apologetic dog calm. It's getting revamped. I'm so excited I got a web designer that's got all these cool ideas and this gentleman is a

57:37

Christian and he is doing this Out of a labor of love like will not let me pay him because he's like this is for Kingdom purposes

57:45

Jeremy I'm like, okay, okay So I just I got a lot of things in the works

57:50

Like I have a whole list of things that I'm just wanting to revamp. I only got a new studio This is incredible because I'm at my house.

57:57

I can do more content. I love the whole going live thing Yeah of watching like Anthony Rogers and guys and it's like man, they they crank out live content all the time

58:07

But it's so much easier when you just hit go and I have a stream dick That allows me to just like change the scenes of when

58:15

I'm doing stuff And my son is you don't have to do a you don't have to do any editing when it's done. It's done

58:20

You know, I mean, yeah the YouTube channel The apologetic dog is where you people can find the majority of my content.

58:27

This will eventually be put on to podcast I have something in the works where I'm gonna be on.

58:34

I heart radio in the near future and There's a ton of opportunity to put all my content

58:39

It there it's integrated with some Christian platforms and it just reaches a super broad audience so I hope to be able to do a live radio called in discussion and I Still have a full -time job as a hospice chaplain, right?

58:54

And my heart is To be full -time at 12 -5 where I serve as a pastor at I'm in the near future and so if that happens then we'll just see what the

59:03

Lord does with the apologetics ministry because Randy my church family is my biggest support along with my wife

59:11

Right because they're just like the Lord has gifted you Jeremiah in certain ways that we want you to be a gift to the rest of the body and so to have that support behind you means all the world and I've told people if you're not a member of a healthy church, not just a you know

59:27

Evangelical church and it's just barely understands the right gospel. That's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about somewhere where there's gospel culture deep holistic discipleship

59:38

Yeah, so when you have that and that's that that's the home base of them saying hey

59:44

We want to help support you in these ways man. Sky's the limit. So I'm just really excited for whatever doors and opportunities the

59:50

Lord gives me Amen Amen. Well praise God for that. I appreciate your brother.

59:56

I love brother. It was wonderful meeting you in person and And Yeah, Lord willing all that will go through pretty soon

01:00:05

Yes. Well Randy, thank you so much for having me on we'll have to do it again man Absolutely, and next time we will talk about ninjas

01:00:15

Yes, and what we're gonna figure out the time zone difference and yes Yeah, it was an hour later here than it was there sorry, but It's it's kind of funny because when

01:00:31

I was hosting passing the torch With Andrew Schumacher He's an hour

01:00:39

Before which meant that I had to start at 9 o 'clock anyway and Yeah, every time

01:00:48

I do that I'm dog -tired the next day, but it's it's well worth it and it's a blessing Hi, by the way,

01:00:54

I was pulling for you on the the dead men walking podcast I Appreciate it.

01:01:00

I was pulling for you, man. Yeah, man. That was a blast I I knew the moment that I seen that I was against the dividing line.

01:01:07

I was like, yeah I'm I'm I'm a fish in a barrel. I'm about to take a 12 -gauge shotgun slug.

01:01:13

What an honor to be no Like sphere with dr. I'm over here like that's incredible Yeah, it was pretty awesome and Greg.

01:01:22

He texts me. He's like, I'm sorry for your luck You're against James White and I'm like, yeah,

01:01:27

I'm I'm done for like it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. It's an honor Well, alright brother,

01:01:34

I hope you have a wonderful evening and we'll definitely do this again, thanks brother god bless it

01:01:40

All right, brother god bless Real quick. I just want to thank you for listening to the podcast

01:01:46

It is so much fun to make but it's definitely not free and it takes a lot of work