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Christian worldview projects table talk show and We'd had a lengthy discussion on the issue of biblical slavery

It's an issue that comes up all the time when we are on the streets evangelizing people always make arguments against Christianity Dealing with the issue of slavery

That's coming your way today on the rap report Where we provide biblical interpretation and application

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community for more content or to request a speaker for your church

Go to striving for eternity org So good evening pastor

Andrew good evening, okay, so thank you for me morning I Forgot I forgot

Yeah, it's actually morning there over there so first of all, I would like to Thank you for coming on and taking the time to have a conversation with me

I really appreciate it. And before we start would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?

Sure I'm grew up in a Jewish home. So I was born miss food and raised Jewish at 16 years old.

I'd be converted to Christianity and And so I went being raised Jewish I was actually raised to believe that Jesus Christ is

Hitler's God That's basically, you know your generation after Holocaust We didn't

Catholic Church had supported Hitler. So that was our view. And so I wasn't really looking for Christ and But I can't refute logic

And so this bus driver who was on driving the bus that we were on for the summer

Was a Christian and shared their gospel and Prophecy and the short story.

There's a longer story. You can go to my rap report podcast go back to hurt my personal testimony It's there somewhere and but but I got saved and then

I ended up in seminary being a pastor of a Chinese Church for several years and as a preaching pastor been, you know, another churches as well, but not as the preaching pastor and then

I after that I had Resigned from there and ended up traveling internationally, which is where I was with you

With I guess last May just just a year ago. A lot has changed George you and I were together in Philippines, right?

This has been a very different year for the world, right? Yeah And so yes, so I've traveled

I've been privileged to be able to travel the world to share the gospel teach And now with the

Internet I was preaching just a few weeks ago in Philippines Refuge Church, I'll be teaching.

I think like 75 pastors next week in India Well been able to preach all over the

United States and I do it all from here the my house So it's it's very different doing ministry now, but all yeah all my preaching

Schedules have have cleared up. I'm supposed to go to Guatemala end of the year

We still haven't canceled that yet and so But I've been privileged to be able to travel but and work for striving for eternity, which is a discipling ministry

So we do we do a lot of different things. We have an online classes on YouTube. So they're free of charge all you need is net and Those are driving fraternity

Academy on our website at striving fraternity org I have books that I write on different religions theology.

I'm working one on the deity of Christ Then we have Podcasting which we're doing right now.

I am the director of the Christian podcast community where we Disciple podcasters to improve both their quality and their content and so we have

I don't know somewhere upwards about 30 podcasts Five of which are mine. So I have the rap report the rap report daily

Apologetics live so you want to be a podcaster and theology throwdown? Mm -hmm. So just a few

I get bored easy You know, I don't I need trying to keep myself busy now I don't know if you could hear this, but I have a real problem right now and I don't know if it comes through but there is a bird that has a fetish with my window and It's not the reflection because when

I when I covered up the window with plastic He went around the corner to hit another window. I don't know what it is, but he has a fetish with my window

So I hope that doesn't come through I Certainly doubt

It's gonna come through and can you tell us something also about your book?

What do they believe? I think you it's a systematic Theology book.

Am I correct? Well, they both are what do they believe and what do we believe? What do they leave is a systematic theology of the major Western religion.

So it covers Judaism Catholicism Islam Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses and then

Christianity So those are the six major ones in that we deal with in the Western world is some thereby you

Catholicism you guys deal with that. It's very big there you're But the thing that I tried to do with that book was to systematize these religions from their their system

In other words, it was to look at what's their authority? What's their view of God specifically a

Trinity? What's their view of Christ specifically deity man sinfulness? Salvation and in time so I I take those six doctrines with all six of those religions the nice thing about it

It's it's quick reference get that and read any one of those sections. There's basically 36 independent sections

So if you're you're want to study those religions, you could just do that now my what do they believe?

What do we believe is a systematic theology Christian religion again? I try to write it as a quick reference the thing that's gonna be really different with that from other systematic theologies is one

It's not real thick. It's 200 pages. And so it's not intimidating It's not something that gets you to be so worried.

Oh, that's too too scary. It's too much I try to write so that everyone yeah stand but it also the thing that I put in there is something you don't see in other theology systematic theology books, which is a chapter on Textual criticism, which is how you could trust the

Bible It is the number one question when I evangelize that comes up that the Bible's been edited. It's been copied.

It's been chained It's you can't be trusted. It's been written by men It's errors all those things and yet with just a little bit of training we can answer those things very easily

And so I tried to water a difficult topic down to something that everyone could would be able to comprehend and be prepared to argue

Mm -hmm Well, thank you so much for that information, so It's available

It's available in Amazon, right? What do they believe is available in on Amazon and in Kindle?

What do we believe is not yet? You're We know you're trying to reformat that. Okay, so That's driving for eternity org.

I'll put it that way. That's okay. Yeah, and You know if it's going to the Philippines We could probably try to figure some other way we've been talking with we actually have a relationship with Rocker Refuge Church there in Philippines and they've started to reproduce some of our training manuals the hermeneutics class

That we have they've they have the rights to reproduce them there. Mm -hmm. Is that The place where Steven pastor

Steven Lawson preached or had a conference. No, I think he was I can't remember the name of the church that brought him out.

It was another group I met the pastor when I was there when we're in the Sky Dome I had the privilege of having lunch with him, but I cannot remember the church.

Okay. Okay, no worries But how long have you been in the only like a thousand people there that day?

Come on. I didn't remember everyone's name No, it's not a problem actually

How how long have you been in the ministry pastor Andrew? So, of course for those people who are aspiring to be a minister also will be inspired by your work well,

I started striving for eternity back in about 2000 and I guess 2007 2007 when we actually started that but it didn't it has changed since then but I've been in ministry as pastor before that Well, I don't know going right going back about 25 years.

I started when I was one Uh -huh I'm only 26 25

I can't I can't be too much older than her. I don't know what we do because in a couple of days We're gonna be married 26 years.

So I guess she's gonna have to start 30 Yeah You're you're you're actually making this conversation really easy

Because of you know Having so much fun so much fun Even from the beginning.

Have you learned any Filipino language? No, I have not but I have

I have had Balut and enjoyed it So so they've had a bunch of Americans that came over and And Mark Spence easy

Miss Wayne from Living Waters and Justin Peters and and it was it was really funny because None of the

Americans were willing to even look at Balut. And so when they explained what it was like, yeah,

I'll have it What's the big deal? so after church I get done preaching and Pastor Armand goes we have a surprise for you and I think it literally was like the parting of the

Red Sea just with people like Soon as he said that everybody got up from their chairs and spread out and like all of a sudden they brought in a table

I'm like what is going on? And then I saw a carton of eggs and I went ah All I could say all

I could say is I enjoyed it it tasted good but better than the taste was the look that I got to see on Justin Peters face as I ate it because it was something like It was great.

I wanted to get a still shot of his the look on his face as I just took that egg It popped it in my mouth after looking at it.

I went to show him in there. Yeah, it wasn't good for a good Well, I haven't eaten both for quite some time because of this quarantine days.

I know I've been missing sushi That's I think that's gonna be the first thing I'm gonna do when I get I told my wife that we're gonna have to make homemade sushi

Love my sushi. Mm -hmm. How about Filipino food aside from Balut?

Yeah, I enjoyed I enjoyed a lot of it I I didn't find anything when I travel I like to try local food

I will problem when I go to India India is the only food that my stomach hasn't been able to handle and I do have a group that's trying to get me to India actually two groups and The only fear

I have is the food because I know I I've tried it about a dozen times and it just doesn't sit

Well with me, but I enjoyed the the Filipino food. That was it was really enjoyable And the look on Justin's face when

I had blue it was worth all It was better than everything. Well, I think if I were there that would also be one of my unforgettable

Experience when of course to see pastor to see Justin Peters face looking at the

Balut Okay So, I guess we have already a lot of viewers

Watching us. I guess we should start our topic for tonight

Over there for today. You wanted to say this evening. I know I know Super early.

No, not really. It's only nine o 'clock my time. It's not that early Mm -hmm, but you know, we can

I woke up super early Just for this show. It'd be a complete lie All right, so I think the subject of slavery is very intimidating when a

Christian is being asked regarding this issue and because of its of course the presupposition from the object

From the one who objects it that slavery is the slavery of the Bible or in the

Bible is evil Is it normal to be intimidated by this kind of objections?

It's it's intimidating to be challenged with any objection, especially one that seems difficult to understand

However, I can remove that Intimidation very easily because there's one thing that I always practice when someone makes a challenge

I ask a question and if you do that, then there's no burden on you Think about it.

The challenge is how could the Bible be true? It supports slavery, right? Coming as a challenge. Well, I'm gonna ask a question instead of sitting there and trying to defend slavery

Which I can do and we'll discuss today But I'm not in the position of having that burden if they say that the

Bible, you know can own slavery There's a couple different ways. I attempt typically go. I'll first ask them to define slavery

I'll ask them what does slavery look like because for most people when they talk slavery

They're thinking of like the African slave trade or Slavery where you have ownership of another human being where they work as an indentured servant without pay they have no rights and that is the idea to have and I will keep asking them to explain the what their ideas of Slavery until we get that worked out.

There's a reason I'm gonna do that We could dig into this more during the show, but here's the thing when they admit that I'll say oh

Oh, so what do you think about employment? I mean, is that indentured slavery and indentured?

Servitude is that a slavery because at least in America We ended up having the people in the

South who got worked outside used to refer to the people in the north that worked in Industries worked in in buildings that where they worked long hours for little pay back many years ago

That was the they said that was voluntary slavery Because they were having to work all these long hours for someone else to tell them how long to work and tell them how much

They could get paid and so it was an interesting view that they had of it But the reason

I do that is this reason because once they say that employment is not slavery.

Well, why is it not slavery? Well, it's not slavery because people can they can you know, they get paid they can kind of pick and choose where they go

Things like that Now this is gonna be where we can make a difference between the slavery in the

Bible and the slavery That we have in that they're thinking of see what very few people that bring this question up Realize is that slaves in the

Bible had rights slaves in the Bible got paid a half -day's wage So they weren't they were not unpaid labor.

They were paid labor They didn't get paid as much why not because it was often they were paying off debt

It's often that they owed someone money or they couldn't provide for themselves They couldn't manage their money and they rested on on someone else to care for their housing their health care their food all their needs they just didn't get paid as much because Part of the payment went toward their living and all that a great example

We have of really that what that slavery would look like would be Japan in the 80s

After World War two Japan had changed where you work for a company and they owned everything

The Japanese companies owned your house they paid for your clothes your food your health care your education everything and the idea was if If the company is paying for everything and owns everything the better the company does the better you do

You can get a better car. You can get better clothes It all depends on how the company does so people would be more likely to work for that company

That was the the concept behind it, but but they owned everything you didn't pick up and leave the company You couldn't do that easily and they got to say how many hours you were and they got to say what you could do

But you got paid that's closer to the biblical slavery That's none of and no one would call what happened in Japan slavery.

They call that industry and so I will I avoid a lot of the tension there because what

I'm gonna start doing is just asking them questions with the goal of getting to That point of getting them to actually admit what they think slavery is and then ask them

Do you know that slaves in the Bible got paid a half -day's wage? Did you know that slaves in the

Bible aren't treated as property in the book? So they're gonna argue for slavery being ownership

But that's not what we see in the Bible in the Bible if in biblical times If you lost say a cow say you had a cow he wanders into my property

I have a legal responsibility according to biblical law to return that cow but if you have a slave that runs away

I am don't have that same biblical responsibility because a Person is not property

And so I don't return the person that runs away like I would a cow and see they don't study that out

They don't know those things So by definition, what is biblical slavery?

Well, I would say biblical slavery is more of an employment system You had a couple reasons that people would be slaves

It was usually the and and people will often look as if slavery was the worst thing ever if you get the book 12 12 years a slave

The this is written by a man who was born in New York. He was a free African American here in the

United States He went down to DC to make some money play music. He was a violinist

He was kidnapped there and forced into slavery. Now his the first place that he was a slave he was a slave to a

Christian man and He had he actually writes in the book had he remained there his entire life

He would not have thought slavery to be a bad thing but he was moved to sold to another plantation where they mistreated people and everyone looks at slavery as if it is always the worst possible way of living and yet they did

The the in biblical law we see that there are rules for the slave owners to care for slaves

They had responsibility to provide for them and make sure that they're well cared for not to mistreat them

There would be rules against the mistreating of them so so what you end up seeing in biblical slavery is it's the focus on it is on the

Responsibility of the the master to the slave to respect him and to follow rules and so biblical slavery

Typically people would get themselves into slavery there maybe the

Israelites took over a land and They would basically kill the men in warfare.

Well in a time where women didn't work the only the only way to provide for those in the land that are left is

Employment system and that is what's called slavery. So they would be employed and provided for now people say oh

But they were they were slaves for life. Yes It meant that owners there are the masters would have because they overtook that that land and own that land now

They had a responsibility to provide for those families for the remainder of their life because they would have no other means

So it's it's to protect to them from it poverty Another way you'd have people going into slavery is when they would get themselves in debt

They would themselves or family members and what ends up happening there

Is that that person would would be working until they work off their debt now?

There is there was provisions where someone might say I I I prefer Working from my master and so they would become a slave for life

In other words, they may recognize that there they don't have a means of employment. The master is taking care of me

I'm gonna I'm gonna be a slave for the rest of my life for him And so you remain that way and the the master would continue to provide for him

It's it's more than the provision you have at a company that you work for where they just give you a paycheck

You know here they're providing your food your lodging your clothing anything you need.

That's their responsibility And so it's a little different than what people often think of slavery because they focus on the slave they focus on Well, they don't have rights there.

They're not they're just property They're not treated as humans and that's not what biblical slavery would be.

It's it's the responsibility of a master to take care of all the needs of The person who and there are people who just don't know how to manage finances there's people who don't know how to provide for themselves and they they overspend if they get in debt and They get trouble and it it's a actually in the

Bible We see is slavery is a protection against poverty because if they didn't have the system of slavery, what would happen with these people?

Here in the United States. We see what happens when you when you have no system like that They didn't live on the streets.

You didn't see that in Israel. Why because they had a system to protect them. Mm -hmm. So Have you ever encountered?

someone or Engaged someone and then raised this kind of objection.

How did you handle it? Oh, I get this all the time Remember, I I do open -air evangelism on the streets in Mm -hmm.

Well, even in the Philippines Philippines. I got to do something I can never do here in the United States I had this was

I went to we went to a mall one of the malls there in the Philippines in in Manila and actually set up a

Amplifier in their court. I have watched that. Yeah three stories I'm I I was actually preaching the gospel inside of all

I can't do that in the United States. It was great You know, everyone's like hanging down. I'm looking up as preaching and they're hanging down listening

But I go around the country preaching on the streets the gospel and I will get this a lot

There's two things that come up the most The the biggest thing used to be can you trust the

Bible in different forms as I mentioned earlier a second? Biggest thing is slavery

Used to be at least now the number one thing that's coming up almost every time is homosexuality that comes up almost every time now so slavery is now kind of bump to three but but I get this regularly and and really the way to handle it is asking

Them questions challenging them and then seeing how much they actually know about the scriptures now what they're gonna do

There's a couple passages. They always turn to there's a passage. Yep Exodus 21.

Yep Yep, they're always gonna go to that and and because what they're what they're looking it seems

Seems in their mind to be like the the ultimate proof because what you you end up having in in Exodus 21 to 25 that you have the laws of slavery and They're there.

It's gonna talk about this case where okay, you get a Hebrew slave and a Gentile slave So the Gentile slave you have someone who comes in They are you've the

Israel's come in they've conquered a land there's people who are there So you have this woman who has no other means of providing for herself or her children.

And so she is a slave In the case here, she's unmarried and you get a

Hebrew slave and by the way Here's the thing with the Hebrew slaves that within this is again

Son, you bring up with with them is to show how little they understand slavery And you in Israel there was a year of Jubilee every seven years all debts were freed

So if you had a slave who's a slave because he owes someone money But that money hasn't paid off by the time of the

Jubilee All debts are free all slaves that are there for debt are released

So it's not this view that they have that of not having rights and things like that You see there's there's all these laws protecting people and the protecting the slaves and the responsibility of the masters

So if you have a Hebrew slave who ends up becoming a slave he gets himself in debt. He is

Finds another slave who's a Gentile and he decides he wants to marry her

He can marry her but when the Jubilee year is up the Hebrew slave is allowed to leave but the master still has an overriding responsibility to per to protect and provide for that wife and And because of that even if they have children that responsibility is for the children as well and so what ends up happening is that the the

Hebrew man has a choice he can leave he's free But what the scriptures say is he has to leave alone

Why because he got himself in debt to start with which which exposes that he may not be

Someone who can care for the wife and children without the provision of the master So the the the protection that's provided for the

Gentile woman and her children remains with the master not to the husband who already has displayed a failure to handle his finances and so now the the

The Hebrew has a choice he can leave alone and that the wife and children still have their are under the headship of the master or he can remain a slave give up his that Freedom of Jubilee and remain a slave and stay with his wife and people think that that's a very strange text because it seems like that they're you know that They're being a slave in it that it's causing divorce

But it's a protection law and that's the thing we have to understand. This is it's a responsibility issue that the master has now the other one that people will say when it comes to slavery is you have a

Master who come they come into a land. You have a woman who? husband died in warfare and What ends up happening there is as that that occurs you you end up seeing that there will be times where?

Someone's going to be attracted to a woman or want a woman as a wife who was a slave and he will take her

Now it's very interesting because people will say oh he you know, like here you got people a pillage of land they they rape the women and then they just take him as as wise, but they're slaves and They can't you know, they can't do anything

Well, actually they're making him a wife and there's rules there if a man does that he's never allowed to divorce her

He has to always treat her as a wife. He can't let her go and and So it's not the way that they always picture it or explain it

Like he just he rapes a woman then she's forced to marry the rapist and then you know

She's just a slave and he can cast her aside. No, he can't cast her aside You know the fact if he casts her aside

He's got it. He's got to give her the the money of an endowment so she could provide for herself

You know, but you know, this is the thing that you end up seeing is most of the people don't understand

What the protections were and they don't see it as a protection system They see it as a system of ownership of another human being now

Let me do you ask how I deal with it. Mm -hmm. Here's something I do I do this often and I don't know if this will work

I don't know what the position is in your country with the issue of abortion But what

I typically will do when someone brings up this issue I will challenge them and I'll tell you

I'll ask them. Why is slavery wrong? Mm -hmm I will get them to a point where I what I want them to say is that it is wrong to say you own

Another human being I'll say what's wrong with that. What's wrong with saying? This is my property I really want them to argue against the issue of this is my property

I was outside of an abortion clinic preaching the gospel We were there all day But there was only one person who got the police called on them and it was me and it's because they had a black and african -american gentleman standing outside of the door so he could usher the women in and I said

I was saying and they could hear me inside. I said sir, what's wrong with slavery? Do you have issues against slavery?

And he said yes. I said what's wrong with it? He's he says it's wrong to say you can own another human being I said why he said because people don't have a right to own other human beings

I said what is wrong with saying this is my property if you paid for something now it sounds like I'm arguing first for slavery, which

I kind of am and that gets them to Really want to defend their view and so when they start saying it is wrong to say this is my property

Then I turned to him and say well then explain one thing to me, sir What is the difference between saying this is my property and this is my body?

Every woman who goes into that clinic says this is my body and I can kill

Another human being because I have ownership over that human being There is the only difference between slavery and abortion is that slaves were not always mistreated and they lived

Abortion is the same argument that they are against with slavery, but it always leads in death well most of the time death unless it's botched and so I will take their argument and show that they're hypocritical because The majority of people that are gonna challenge me on the slavery issue support abortion in fact

I'll play a clip if you want This is what happened we have a well -known

Atheist here in in our where we live in Country named

David Smalley and he was doing a debate with a friend of mine Matt slick and became time for Q &A

Their whole argument their whole argument was on the issue that the Bible is immoral and his whole

Argument was on morality and he focused on slavery the whole time he and I talked beforehand

He knew exactly what my argument was because we talked about the abortion issue And this is what he said when

I got up to ask a question. I'm mr. Smalley. Do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy

I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you because he knew he had no he knew that his whole argument

When I made the case to him, there were even atheists in that room.

No it oh Because they realized they want to support abortion and he did he tried to argue for abortion

But I said it's an ownership issue You're taking you're taking a position that you can own another

Human being that human being inside the mother's room has a totally different DNA could have a totally different gender

Okay is a completely separate human being just they're inside of the womb

But when you say you can kill that human being that is an ownership issue Yep, no different than the slavery.

They are against Wow. That was amazing So basically the problem about this objection is the lack of understanding of the biblical slavery because of their interpretation

Which is the 20th century? or 17 to 20th century

Chattel slavery or African slavery, right for the most part But we I mean, that's what a lot of people are most familiar with but slavery has been

Part of the work system employment system As far as we know from antiquity,

I mean, you've always had cultures that ended up employing some form of slavery You can go back in, you know, even in scripture

We go back to Egypt and we see that we see that they the Israelites were slaves in Egypt So they there was always a form of slavery now slavery was a work system an employment system and yet we have to recognize the fact that even though this

System was in place. Not all cultures practiced it the same way Right, so we see that there there were laws for Israel.

We don't think of slavery the same way I think in the 21st century Yep Because we have we think we have more rights we can we can go and find our a job somewhere if we don't like that Working for this company.

We just move to this company But ultimately they pay us they tell us how long we're gonna work If we want to get that paycheck

And we have a little bit more freedom in most countries that we can pick up and go somewhere else But we also don't have the protections that can come with that system now

It's always it always comes down to where you can have abuse and that's always the problem

That's why the Bible has restrictions on what can happen to protect people Mm -hmm And so that's why

I think you always had slavery as far back as we can we have recorded history We we see that there's been slavery so the question is why well because there's some people who who can take care of themselves and others and some who can't and The people who can't if you don't help them and take care of them and provide work and things like that What ends up happening is they go into poverty?

So which is better? I mean you look around the world and you look at the countries that that don't have a system to protect you know the the poor they're gonna have either a large number of Poor the countries that try to protect the poor like they have welfare states

Over in Europe and you end up seeing that over time It ends up being such a drain on the system that the countries end up collapsing over time we in this country my country have even the worst of both worlds because we're trying to be a welfare state taking care of the poor while having open borders having everyone come in and You've there's never been a country that has been able to successfully do that countries that have welfare states usually have closed borders

Countries that have closed open borders typically don't have a welfare state America used to not have a welfare state

We said you come in and you work, but we didn't have provision if people couldn't take care of themselves It was a a well type of attitude

There was no protection for them So is that concept of protection the same as insurance in our institution

You know, I never thought of it. But yeah, it would be in a sense. It's yeah I mean we had we the difference being is we pay insurance

And Protection from biblical slavery is free, right? Yeah, and well we we pay insurance.

We hope that they're gonna pay us when Things go bad I Have friends who are you know, we're doing a trip to Israel striving fraternities is doing a trip to Israel in 2021 and we the trip sold out but but if anyone wants to get on that waiting list go to 2021

Israel trip comm we have people coming from all over the world Ireland Mexico Everywhere it's it's really kind of neat Canada America.

And so it'll be Justin Peters and I did leading things and Really? What what we noticed with that is this whole kovat 19?

We were talking about the insurance with the the guy who's running he goes Let's not get the insurance yet because after kovat 19, we don't know which insurance companies are gonna still be business

Because they're just paying out too much. Yeah, and so, you know It's it is a thing where let's let's take that for example, like it's not really an insurance thing but what happened here in America was

We had a we have a president who said, you know to to not overwhelm the health care system

We're we're gonna try to tell everyone to stay home and not go to work we're gonna tell businesses to to either shift where their employees can work at home or You know shut down and because the government was forcing it the government said well

We're gonna we're gonna have to come up with money to pay people to keep their employees, you know paid

So you got money for two months to keep people on salary? Well since the government was the one shutting down the businesses this president said well

It's the government's responsibility to to pay for this to you know, make good on the the damages that they're inflicting

What do you have happen? Well, there's just not enough money to go around to everywhere and You know, they try they did put restrictions and penalties on big businesses that they didn't need the money so they were like no

We'll give money back But there's a bunch of small businesses that just didn't have money to pay for employees and said, you know what?

I'm gotta open my business. You may have this law, but I have to feed my family I have to have my employees feed their family

And so, you know we had one woman who opened a hair salon so she could feed her family and her employees could could get paid and You know, she said and they arrested her and she said if you got to put me in jail you put me in jail

But I'm not shutting down my salon because you know, my employees need to eat What happened there?

She got sentenced to seven days in prison She was willing to do that so that she could take care of the people who worked for her.

Mm -hmm That's a responsibility as a business owner that she had same as that you'd have with a master that has slaves

They have a responsibility to make sure they take care of people. Mm -hmm Right.

Thank you so much for that. Very informative explanation, so How about in the

New Testament? They're quoting Versus like Ephesians obey your masters, etc, etc

And link that versus to chattel slavery Do we have the same response to them in regard to that kind of objection?

Well, I think here we get into something very interesting because You'll sometimes find

I don't are you familiar with Andy Stanley down there? You know who he is. Yep Okay, my condolences.

Sorry that we spread our bad theology around the world, but Andy Stanley is one who tried to say we need to unhinge

The Old Testament from the New Testament One of the things he doesn't like about the Old Testament is that it talks about slavery

He doesn't like that very much and I've been meaning to do a podcast on this on my rap report podcast

I got a eventually I'm gonna I'm gonna do this But when he was talking about unhinging the

Old Testament from the New his argument was he didn't he just he did not like that because of the fact that here he has

The Old Testament that refers to things like slavery and that's just so wrong And so I did a little research

How many New Testament books refer back to the Old Testament and which books we have left?

if we unhinge all of the Old Testament and remove all the New Testament books that refer back to the

New Test or the Old Testament. Well, I discovered we would only have one book left

There's only one New Testament book that doesn't refer to the Old Testament at all doesn't allude to it or anything

It happens the only book Dealing with slavery. That's right

Philemon the one chapter That one book and what's the whole purpose of Philemon?

the whole purpose of Philemon is that here Paul is writing to Philemon who had a slave who ran away and He's saying to him listen your slave who ran away.

He may even owe you some money. His name is Onesimus He's he came to me. He got saved He's been very valuable to me and and you owe me

Philemon because you know, I'm the one that led you to Christ So you owe me. Well, you can put his debt on my account so he's basically sending

Onesimus back to Philemon very interesting and It's the only book that doesn't have any allusions back to the

Old Testament So Andy Stanley would be left with one book of the New Testament and it would be a book all about slavery

I Don't know he exactly wants to unhinge the Old Testament from the new so so that's the idea of Andy Stanley why he wants to unhinge

The Old Testament from the new because of the issue of slavery It seems to be the biggest thing that he has issue with I mean

I think the other things that he would have issues with he doesn't like the you know The fact that the

Israelites went to war I mean basically what it is is he doesn't like in his 21st century

Sensibility. He doesn't like things he reads in the Bible, but those were the things that happened in those days

I mean, is he gonna unhinge himself from America because of the African slave trade which he doesn't like I mean is that a logical way to go about things to try to rewrite history and ignore the actual events of things?

So I I just think he's he's got a system. He can't hold to Consistently, but what you end up seeing in the

New Testament is yes You have Paul telling slaves to remain slaves you have him sending

Onesimus back to his master Now remember, this is a Roman slave under Roman rules

So in Roman rules a slave was property fine Lehman who could have had the right in Roman law to kill if he so desired

Onesimus especially since Onesimus it seems stole money from him when he left

Paul sends him back. Why because to Paul what was more important is the gospel and the issue of restoration forgiveness things like that Reconciliation and so you you end up seeing that there's a lot more lessons that we have that Philemon and Onesimus need to learn.

In fact, historically we do see that there seems to be a church leader named Onesimus So there actually is the possibility that even though Onesimus was a slave to Philemon when they got to church

It may be that Onesimus was a leader over Philemon be real interesting situation of how to do

How that works out? But that's that is the reality You know, you you have to recognize the fact that the

Bible in the New Testament you see Paul talking about submission You brought up Ephesians.

Yeah, where's it mentioned in Ephesians 5 and 6? You can't just say 6 why because it starts in 520 the the thing that you'll forget and this is a passage many people know

Because they of you know, they are gonna talk about husbands, you know Love your wives wives submit to your children and they never start in verse 21 they start at verse 22 22 says wives submit to your husbands.

Okay. Well, where do we see submission there? Oh just one verse before submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ Wives submit to their own husbands and then later he's gonna be talking about Slaves obey your your earthly masters in chapter 6 verse 5 this whole thing from that you end up seeing that starts in Chapter 2 verse 15 and works its way all the way down to chapter 6 verse 9 is all the concept of mutual submission that we have

He's talking about that within the church. We submit to one another husbands to wives wives to Wives to husbands husbands to wives children to parents parents to children fathers.

Do not provoke your children to anger Slaves to masters masters to slaves, you know

He's basically what Paul is doing there is he's talking about a mutual submission that we have within the church and it affects all

Realms whether your spouses parents to children

Masters to slaves every type of relationship that we have we should be having mutual

Submission to one another in the church. That's that's the thing Paul's laying all that out He's just he's he's not just giving a statement but breaking that down So yes, how would that attribute to us when we go to work?

We are to submit to our employers if we're the employer We are to to have to submit in the sense to our employees to care for them provide from we have a responsibility

We have to take care of their needs now in America You we see this breakdown because those that are at the top have now, you know

They've they've been able to give themselves more and have less of a concern for the people that work for them

So they protect themselves over their people. They actually if we were applying biblical rules

They would have a responsibility to make sure that their people are taken care of it

You know, you do see us with something like our current president doesn't take a salary He's got enough money. And so he's he has decided he's not gonna take the $800 ,000 a year

That is allotted for him He put that back into the government so that they wouldn't we wouldn't need to do as much taxation

That is that is the way someone should I remember the story? There was a car manufacturer

Lee Iacocca was the head of it and and he took we he had made enough money

The company wasn't doing well, and he just said I'm gonna take a $1 salary per year.

That's all he made was $1. Mm -hmm and You know that way that he wasn't making the big money and everyone else could be employed

That was a responsibility That would be a biblical practice that people at top would would have see that there they have a responsibility to take care of their

Employees, that's the view of biblical slavery. Um, do you think? Why shadow slavery?

Exists in our time is because of the When people start to depart from the scriptures

I think that cattle slavery is because people have a sin nature you if you give them a

Position where they can feel that they can control another human being. Mm -hmm. They will do that There's plenty of examples throughout history where people once they get control over another human being

Will try to exert that control and and try to get more for themselves. That's because we have a sin nature

That's the reason we need biblical principles because the biblical principles are to protect against our sin nature to protect other people because we recognize that these people that you have

Are a Responsibility to care for not to take advantage of cattle slavery is is nothing more than one person wanting to control another person

Mm -hmm, exactly so whenever someone is trying to bring up the

I think your internet may be going out. Oh, I didn't hear the question.

Sorry the internet went out for a bit there Oh, I'm sorry. So let me back up needs a backup Cover me

So so basically when someone tries to object regarding slavery in the context of 20th or 21st century slavery

We Christians should really ask the objector What do you mean by slavery in order for us to really have this kind of clarification both sides, right?

Yeah, it's a good book if you guys could get a hold of it is called tactics by Greg Coco and The reason

I always recommend this I you years ago I was gonna write a book on evangelism and I realized most of what I teach is in his book

You know, like so when he came out with it, I just recommend he'll get that Teaches you how to ask questions and what the purpose of questions are.

Yep If someone challenges you ask questions, you can ask questions to gather information. What do you mean?

What what do you mean by slavery what what is why is it wrong that those are information gathering questions or it could be to Expose them as when

I get when I start asking them why slavery wrong? Because you're against ownership of another human being then do you support abortion?

That's exposing a problem I mean you heard the reaction that David Smalley had he didn't want to deal with that in front of Right.

Yeah, he was trapped with that and that's what that question did It exposed a problem that he knew he had that he wanted to avoid and so you can ask questions that that expose now

When I'm doing that, is there any pressure on me? No, there's none because I'm not the one having to answer if they make a claim you ask a question

Then there's no pressure on you I had a guy in New York that you know was telling me that there is no God because there's evil in the world

Mm -hmm, and I said evil. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and I said well you to explain this to me How could you have evil without God so I think evil is the best argument for God and you know what he was he said

Why what's evil? He's now asking me a question and I said sir. I didn't say evil exists You did you see he wants to put the burden back on me and I said no

No, you said evil exists. You said we can't have God because there's evil in the world. What is evil?

Mm -hmm. He didn't have a definition for evil. He kept asking me. What's evil? What's evil? So after a couple times

I said, okay Evil is the absence of good and good is defined by the nature of God.

How can you have evil without God and In a crowd of people he just threw his hands up and left the crowd because he had no answer

He's like many people but many people don't like that answer though in the Christian perspective, right?

In fact, they don't they don't accept that It doesn't matter if they accept it. Yeah, I mean what criminal accepts that they're they're guilty when they stand before a judge

Yeah, I mean, they're always pleading their innocence It doesn't matter whether we like it or not

The fact is is if if you define evil by anything else other than the nature of God Then you have isn't a subjective standard and therefore you can never hold your standard against another person

Therefore every single country that has prisons would be wrong Because the guilty person justifies his behavior and therefore if you have a subjective standard

You can't say you're wrong and I'm right It can't be you have to have an absolute standard

So why is lying wrong because God is not a liar? Why is stealing wrong? Because God is not a thief

Why is raping wrong because God is not a rapist You see it all goes back to the nature of who

God is God is good. Evil is the opposite of that the lack of good

Like darkness is the the lack of light evil is the lack of good so What do you think is?

the Relationship between the Old Testament and the biblical slavery and the gospel

Well, I think what we've seen the relationship to biblical slavery in the gospel would be this is that you know

God has recognizes the sinful nature of people That people would in this in nature would do what we see around the world that they would want to own

Other people control other people and make everyone submit to themselves because as we see in Genesis 3 human beings want to think that they could be like God and they feel that when they feel that they can own another human being or force another human being to bow down to them and do what they wish and Because of that it shows the sin nature that we have it shows that God is right that we are sinners and God had protections on People God had to provide a way for people to not do you know to know that they're accountable to someone greater than Themselves and that's

God himself and when we break God's law, which we all do we are accountable to God And that's why

God himself had to come to earth God himself had to come to earth to die on a cross to be a payment of sin that you and I Jordan we can never pay you and I can never pay a

Consequence that is forever and so Because of that God being an eternal being is the only one that could pay that fine

Being a human being he could pay for men. That's what makes Jesus unique which makes Christianity unique Christianity is not a system of morality

Christianity is a system of Christ It's based on a very special person who's truly

God and truly man being truly God He can pay the fine of eternity and pay it from all people

For being a man. He can pay that for people. And so what you see here is that Christ is because of his death it is sufficient

All because he is eternal, but he provided that because we're sinners because we have that need

Left to our own devices. We would continue in sin and rightly deserve an eternity in a lake of fire

But God made a way of escape he himself came to earth died on the cross that we could be set free

There we turn from trusting ourself or trusting our good works turn and trust Jesus Christ.

That's the gospel We can have the forgiveness of sins or as Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5 21

He who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God So Christ the punishment of sin upon himself and then calls us righteous that blows my mind

Yeah, but that's what that's that's the view now. Here's the thing. What does Scripture say?

What does Paul say in Romans you and I are born? Slaves to sin and when we turn to Christ and repent of our sin we become slaves to Christ Notice he uses that same mindset of slavery that we see

God putting in the Old Testament In other words, we have a duty to our master

He in now in this case the way Paul's using it is the the worldly the the cattle slavery concept

We are in slave to sin it controls us But when we come to Christ, he should control us and we put old things away.

We put away that sinful lifestyle We have to stop doing that and be a slave to sin and live every day

Thinking that way now I have I have a it's taken down now because I've I'm packing up and moving

I have this cover here because I don't want you to see an empty bookcases behind me because my books are practicing separation

My books are quarantined Boxes and their practice like to have one thing.

Yeah, they're practicing social distancing for me right now. It's sad It's really hard because I'm preaching and I'm like,

I don't have all my commentaries so um, but the thing is that as we um, you know as we

Look at what the gospel message is. I have this note that used to be on my desk here and it says you are a slave

Serve your master is a constant reminder to myself that when I became a Christian Yes, I was no longer a slave to sin, but it doesn't mean

I'm not a slave anymore. Yeah I'm still a slave. I'm just a slave to Christ and I have a responsibility as a slave to serve

My master the way he wants me to serve to the best of my ability And that's that's the message for a

Christian to the unbeliever within your you're still a slave to sin Mm -hmm, that's in controls.

Y 'all don't know. I'm gonna live my life my way. I'm I'm enjoying my sin No, you're not that sin is it sin is leading to death.

Yeah And it has growing weight. Yeah, and and but they don't know the freedom that they can have with the forgiveness of sin

Because they don't see that they only understand what it's like to be a slave to sin and you don't understand the freedom

You have in forgiveness until you're forgiven that's a problem because they see african slavery as Wrong, but they did not see themselves as slaves of sin

These people are very self -righteous. Yeah. Well that that is true That's what

I was just preaching on that and more this week at church. Um Self -righteousness of the pharisees that they could they could see

Jesus eating with tax collectors and sinners and they're like, you know You're a teacher with nurse as if they're not one, you know

Jesus response I came for sick not that a physician comes to sick

Not the not the righteous like, you know, I I like, you know, the thing I had said on sunday was

Jesus says this statement and and they don't even realize what he's saying about that Your righteousness is based in yourself.

You you have that claim. God doesn't agree with your assessment Exactly well,

I guess uh I'm done with my questions. Uh before we close this conversation any advice from the young christians out there uh about handling these kind of objections in regard to Biblical slavery or well, it really comes down to learning how to interpret the bible.

Um, what I would say is you can go We if you go to strivingforeternity .org look under our academy.

We have a 20 classes on how to interpret the bible how to study the bible and so free of charge

You could take them. Uh, if you want the syllabus, uh, I would i'd recommend you contact ref christ

A rocker refuge church with pastor armand. Uh, he has he has the rights to reprint them there

Uh in the philippines because it would cost it costs less to print them there than for us to ship them over It makes it too expensive uh we don't want that so um, but that that'd be one thing i'd recommend because the the thing we have to do what's really at At issue here with biblical slavery is you must interpret rightly

In other words, you must understand what the slavery was at that time Understand the purpose of it understand the culture

So we can't read our 21st century thinking into the bible

We have to understand the culture and the history and the time at that time of the writing what was being said

What was the purpose of it and then understand it that from their perspective and then bring it into our day

That's what harmonutive is this the the science of interpretation That's what's lacking in many churches.

And that's why so many people this is a struggle for them Because they don't look at it from the from the biblical perspective of seeing it as a responsibility of the masters to take care of the slaves

They look at it as you said cattle slavery with it being unfair to the slave

So I would I would say that's a big thing people people could do. Um, I think if you go to need god

Uh the group on facebook Need for god No, it's it's I think it's need god philippians.

Yeah need god I go to need god .ph and that's the website that but from there on their uh page

I think they have some of the teachings that we did when we were in sabu and so When we did the the uh snatch them from the flames and that is going to be there.

Um There should be a video on on facebook at least that's there from the one teaching that I did

But let me let you your audience know of a different thing And that is if you if you go to strivingforeturning .org

on the front page is a Link to online events and if you go there, you can register may 30th

The same for those who may have missed when justin and I were in the philippines We're going to be doing that same seminar online.

It's a snatch of the flames home edition Uh, so we're gonna because we're all at home

You know, I it started justin and I kind of justin called me up one day he goes How's your how's your uh speaking schedule looking and I went all free

Just it cleared up or everywhere around the world that he's like mine, too I said We're like, what should we do about this?

And he said let's let's do an event that doesn't cost anyone anything. Everyone's at home Anyway, people can't get out.

My encouragement is use this time of quarantine for those who are stuck at home Get into the bible read and study so that the moment we get out

We hit those streets sharing the gospel as much as we can that maybe god would use this covet 19 to bring about a world wide revival that would be

Wonderful to see But it's not us as believers to start studying now and preparing and getting ready to share the gospel to answer the questions

Of biblical slavery and things like that But may 30th if you want to register just go to the striving fraternity dot org

Go to online events there and from there you can register you'll see a video.

That's that That you can watch it right there. You'll be able to watch it free. There's no charge

It's going to be all day may on may 30th For you guys, you're gonna have to decide to sleep during the day and stay up at night

We're gonna start it'll be for you in the philippines. It'll be starting at 10 o 'clock your time. No problem

Six in the morning so, you know for your night owls, it's going to be great you have something to do about the rest of philippine sleep

But the nice thing is it's all going to be we'll we'll end up putting it onto youtube and so it'll it'll be there so that you can you'll be able to watch it and so That's something that we're we're doing taking advantage of time when everyone's home to help basically get christians

Take advantage of the fact that they're all kind of stuck at home to to equip them So that they're ready to win this quarantine less

Okay. Thank you so much for that. Very wonderful gospel presentation there.

And of course, uh for that very short advice yet very uh encouraging uh, well,

I guess, uh, it's already one hour and uh, that's the limit of my commitment

To uh this day. Oh this day. So this evening And I would like to thank you for granting this

Conversation. I hope this is not the last time we'll be doing this pastor. Andrew. No, i'd be happy to come back.

Okay I always want to encourage Christian podcasters. That's why we have the christian podcast community, you know, because we want to encourage

Uh people to to be out there and and podcasting so let's just change that background Look see how quick I could do that.

That was nice. See the background now christian podcast community. Just flip that But uh, yeah, maybe

Available is that available? Is that available in striving for eternity .org? Yeah, well, you can get to all the podcasts there

You could go to christianpodcastcommunity .org as well, and it'll get you to all the shows. Um, and uh,

We even have if you you could if people who want good christian podcasting they could actually subscribe to The christian podcast community podcast feed it's its own feed

So every one of the podcasts that host with us Will be on that feed so you can listen to one feed and get a whole lot of podcasts

Okay. Thank you so much for that. Well, I guess uh It's time for us to say goodbye for now.

Uh, thanks for having me. Okay Pastor Andrew Ravaport. Thank you so much for having me here.

So uh for those for those people watching Don't forget to follow

Pastor Andrew Ravaport on youtube strivingforeternity .org

Visit all the contents there this those Podcasts and content will contents will be very helpful for us young christians

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