November 1, 2017 Show with Paul Tautges on “The Pain of Empty Chairs: Facing Grief, Loneliness, Sorrow & Suffering During the Holidays”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday and today is a day that the first day of November 2017 that is a day which brings us all closer to some major holidays and major holidays can be such a time of joy and celebration and rest and relaxation and refreshment and rekindling relationships with folks that you love that you haven't seen in a long time perhaps all year or perhaps even longer than that and also on the flip side of that coin they can be especially the hardest times of the year because of those empty chairs those empty chairs of loved ones who are no longer celebrating those holidays with you whether they are loved ones perhaps whom you lost in death.

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I am myself a widower and I also know the pain of losing both my parents and there are many of you listening

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I'm sure that experienced those very same losses and perhaps even the loss of children and of course siblings and other precious loved ones friends that perhaps are were dearer to you than even some of your family members were.

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Well today we're going to be talking about the pain of empty chairs facing grief loneliness sorrow and suffering during the holidays and our guest to discuss this is

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Paul Tauches who is senior pastor of Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio.

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He's the series editor for Lifeline Mini Books. He's a blogger at counselingoneanother .com

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an author of many books including one that is going to be obviously of great importance for our discussion today,

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Comfort the Grieving, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Paul Tauches.

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Thank you so much Chris it's always a joy to be on your program. It's always a joy to have you on the program

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Dr. Tauches and I want to give our listeners our email address if you have a question of your own that you'd like to ask of Dr.

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Tauches our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

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and please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and of course you may remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking and before we even go into the topic at hand

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Dr. Tauches I'd like you to explain once again or describe for our listeners especially for the sake of those who haven't heard you yet on this program because we seem to be getting new listeners every day joining the audience of Iron Trip and Zion Radio but if you could tell us something about Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio.

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Yes, Cornerstone is an evangelical free church here in Mayfield which is the farthest east suburb of Cleveland.

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We're a congregation of about 300 and just a wonderful congregation of people who are loving the

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Lord and growing in their love for God and each other and one of the unique things about our church too is that it is really a strong and continuing to develop a personal one -to -one ministry that we call counseling.

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Of course we're talking about intensive discipleship, loving one another, helping one another through the struggles of life, one of which obviously is the grief and loneliness that we're talking about here today.

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Well, we'll be giving our listeners contact information later on if they'd like to visit

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Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio, but also why don't you let our listeners know about your blog counselingoneanother .com.

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Yes, the whole purpose of the blog is to help believers to grow in the balance of grace and truth.

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My purpose is in the blog primarily to encourage other believers to grow in their walk with the

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Lord so that they then can intentionally be ministering the Word to one another.

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Well, great, and the subject that we are addressing today, as I said, it's a pretty universal subject, especially when you get to be my age.

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I'm 55, going to be 56 in February. The older you get, obviously, the more people you are going to lose.

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You're going to have not only loved ones die, but sadly you know of people who are going through tragic divorces and separations and all kinds of things like that, and I have heard that from those who have been divorced, especially those who were the innocent party in that conflict, or at least the more innocent party, that this could be even more painful than death or losing somebody in death,

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I should say. But what have you come to realize as a counselor, as a pastor over the years that is unique about the holiday season when it comes to those who are mourning either the loss of someone in death or someone who is perhaps left voluntarily in a divorce or separation or something like that?

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Yeah, well, of course, just the whole togetherness that you mentioned at the opening of the program, the extra gatherings, the meals, the gift -opening parties, and all of these things just draw attention to the fact that your life has drastically changed, that if you are going to go to those events, which

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I believe you should with all your heart, continue to participate in as many things as you are able to.

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To go to those things alone is a whole new part of life, and so there are just these constant reminders.

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You have the reminder within, of course, of the loss and the grief that you're experiencing, but you have these constant reminders this time of year that your life is different now, so -and -so is gone, either gone forever or perhaps is no longer a part of your life for whatever reason, and so it just keeps it at the forefront of your mind, which then gives you a choice.

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What are you going to do with those thoughts that are at the forefront of your mind? Are you going to dwell on them and let them control your emotions and spiral you down, down, down, or are you going to discipline the thoughts of your mind and make wise choices through the valley?

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Do you think that one thing that we always have to remember when it is us personally who are experiencing the pain, the ones who actually lost loved ones, that we always have to be reminded of the sovereignty of God over all things?

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It, I think, is a tragedy when people constantly have the heart -wrenching echo in their minds, a what -if.

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Perhaps there are people who are dealing with grief who think that if they had done something differently, their loved one would still be here, but isn't the latching on to the fact that God is in total control a main source of peace?

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Oh, I would say that's the key foundation stone of any peace is to know that even though our whole world is changing all the time, and sometimes it's little changes, sometimes it's very big life changes, that God himself never changes, and that's one of the reasons why

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I'm always drawn to Psalm 46 when I'm myself struggling with grief or in trying to help someone else and just reminding them that God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

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Therefore, we will not fear, though the earth should change and though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea.

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And it goes on and on to talk about there are so many things in our life that change, things that are completely beyond our control.

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Of course, there are things that are within our control which sometimes do lead to grief, but many times it's stuff that we just simply have no control over, and this is where I believe

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God wants to use grief and loneliness that accompanies the grief to draw us closer to himself.

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He alone is the one who in Christ will never leave us nor forsake us.

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We always have a comforter with us when we know the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. And have you come to an opinion from counseling people and from even just meeting people who are going through sorrow and pain after a loss, have you heard the same thing that I mentioned earlier that as far as divorce and separation goes that that can even be more of a hardship on a person than the actual death of a loved one?

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Yes, I have heard that. I've not experienced that in my family or extended family, but I have counseled others.

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I have known other Christians who have said that that is very, very difficult, worse than death, because you know that other person is still alive somewhere on planet earth, and there is this severed relationship that you're powerless to bring back together ultimately, and God has to be the one to work in hearts and whatever level of relationship that is to be restored to, but yeah, because there is no finality.

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Death is a finality, and if the person who died knew the

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Lord Jesus, then obviously we as believers have a hope that goes beyond anything that this world can offer.

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But yes, those who have gone through the bitterness of divorce often grieve even worse.

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Yeah, do you think that one powerful way why that may be true is because there's something different about losing someone in death than having someone that you know is still out there who may hate you or despise you?

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I mean, the very notion that somebody has voluntarily wrenched themselves away from your life,

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I'm assuming that that could be one of the major factors why such losses are so difficult and agonizing to experience.

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Oh, absolutely, yeah, because if your heart is longing to be restored and reconciled to someone, but their choice is to not be reconciled, you're really powerless.

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You have to continue to examine your own heart and life and see, according to Romans 12, if there's anything left for you to do on your end to be at peace with someone.

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But having done that, then you need to rest in the Lord to do the work that only

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He can do. But interestingly, the Psalms are filled with these kinds of examples, and we turn to those real -life examples of loneliness and grief that are caused by broken relationships, and we find, again, the reminder that in the end, our ultimate comfort and hope can only come from the

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Lord. Now, a lot of people who have suffered loss or they're going through depression, they're battling with deep pain, sorrow, regret, they may have a tendency, whether they're believers or unbelievers, to complain to God.

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And I know that there are those who I have heard endorse that, who go to,

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I think, a blasphemous extreme, but at the same time, it seems that David is doing that, the psalmist, a man who is the apple of God's own eye.

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I mean, where is the balance there? Is this ever appropriate to be complaining to God about this agony that you're going through?

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Oh, yes, I definitely think so. There are the

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Psalms that we refer to as the Lament Psalms, which encourage us to bring our complaints to the

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Lord. The difference, though, between that and what is sometimes encouraged is we're not to come to God with any kind of finger -pointing anger.

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We are allowed by Scripture to lament, to be very open with God about the pain that we feel over what we're enduring, but never to the point where we accuse

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Him of injustice, of not treating us properly.

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And that essentially is part of the definition of anger, is that we get angry because we believe there's been an injustice.

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And to take that anger, then, and point it at God is to do something that's not appropriate because God is just and God is righteous.

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And so even though you have those examples in the Psalms of crying out to God in the deepest of pain, some of the

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Psalms are so, so painful, but even in the pain and even in the complaining, even in the lamenting, there is a faith that is still clinging to God.

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And sometimes that faith is very weak, sometimes it's very feeble.

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It feels as though it's just so thin, but that element of knowing who to turn to is still there.

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And God is our comforter, and I don't think that God wants us to pretend in our conversations with Him.

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I think He wants us to be real, and He welcomes that. So give us, perhaps, an example of how

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David complained and yet didn't cross the line. Well, I think of, um, um, let me just read a couple examples here of his crying out to God.

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He says in Psalm 61, Oh God, hear my cry. Listen to my prayer.

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From the end of the earth, I call to you when I'm, when my heart is faint, lead me to the rock that is higher than I, for you have been my refuge, a strong tower against the enemy.

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Let me dwell in your tent forever. Let me take refuge under the shelter of your wings.

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He's crying out there as an example of, um, of his weakness.

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He admits to God, my heart is faint. I need you to listen to me.

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If you won't listen to me, then, then who will? Because he speaks of, um,

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God being a strong tower against his, against his enemy. So he has, he has, uh, enemies in his life, and he's turning to God to, uh, to comfort him.

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The Psalm before that, he says, Oh God, you have rejected us. You have broken us.

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You have been angry. Oh, restore us. You have made the land quake.

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You've split it open. Heal its breaches for totters. You've made your people experience hardship.

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So he, he's, he's complaining to God about his circumstances, about the very things that, um,

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God has brought into their lives. But at the same time, he is saying, restore us, restore us.

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There's nowhere else to turn. Give us help, he says in verse 11, against the adversary.

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So even in the midst of complaining about his circumstances, um, and even acknowledging that it is the sovereign hand of God that has, uh, allowed these, uh, circumstances into his life, his faith is still just hanging on.

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Maybe it's hanging on by a thread, but it's, it's there and it's, um, it's what's keeping him connected to God, so to speak.

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And, uh, isn't Psalm 139 a psalm that David wrote after his, uh, committing adultery with Bathsheba and plotting the death of her husband?

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Um, I know Psalm 51 certainly is. Um, you're talking about Psalm 139 about God never leaving him, is that what you're saying?

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Yes. Uh, Lord, you have searched me and you know me. You know, when

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I sit down and when I rise up, you understand my thoughts from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down and are intimately acquainted with all my ways.

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Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold, oh Lord, you know it all. You have enclosed me behind and before and laid your hand upon me.

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Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is too high. I cannot attain to it.

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And of course, it's a much lengthier psalm than that. That's only the first, uh, five or six verses of that.

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Right. But, you know, what we're talking about here too, Chris, is, is how the

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Word of God serves us in times of grief and loneliness. And that is, there are times in which we don't know how to pray.

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Um, our grief has taken hold, um, to the point where we don't understand what this loss is all about.

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We don't understand what God is trying to do in our lives through this.

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Uh, but we continue to cry out to him and the psalms are, uh, songs that were sung by Israel.

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Many of them also were prayers. And, and so we can take these psalms and we can make them our own and we can know that we are praying, uh, according to the will of God.

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But, but what, uh, what it helps us do is it fortifies our faith because as we are praying these psalms back to God, um, we are reminded of the very promises of God.

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You know, I think of, I think of Psalm 63 as, as such beautiful truths about God that we need to cling to, uh, at times when we are really confused and, uh, we just simply don't understand what, what

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God is doing. Um, David says, because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you, so I will bless you as long as I live.

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In your name, I will lift up my hands. My soul will be satisfied as with fat and rich food, and my mouth will praise you with joyful lips.

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When I remember you upon my bed and meditate on you in the watches of the night, for you have been my help.

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And in the shadow of your wings, I will sing for joy. My soul clings to you.

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Your right hand upholds me. So David is, is really forcing himself to make the choice to live again.

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Um, and, and that's something that needs to happen after, uh, a major loss.

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Sometimes we can, we can just, uh, fall into a depression and a, a spiral that basically says you just don't even want to live anymore.

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And, um, he's saying, I will, I will, I will. And then he reminds himself that God, you have been, you have been my help.

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And, and in the shadow of your wings, I will sing for joy. So there's this constant communication with the

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Lord, whereby we're honest about, um, our struggles and our fears at the same time, our faith is clinging to some of the most basic, uh, promises of God, which then feeds our souls and, uh, leads to, to life that is, uh, joyful again.

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Yes. And just, uh, as David had to experience, uh,

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I'm sure that there are people out there who are in perhaps an even deeper mourning, as they grieve the loss of a loved one.

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But, uh, one of the reasons perhaps is because they themselves were involved, uh, perhaps by accident in the person's death.

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We, many of us have heard about, um, uh, a very famous Christian recording artists whose son accidentally ran over the adopted daughter of that artist.

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And, and, uh, of course it was completely unintentional and, but the, still the, the agony of, of thinking that, uh, or knowing,

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I should say, that, uh, there is guilt involved in that, that, uh, we have

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David realizing after, uh, Nathan, the prophet rebuking him that, uh, that, you know, he had committed this, this wicked deed, uh, of not only committing adultery, but he actually plotted the murder of somebody.

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He plotted the murder of the Shiva's, uh, uh, husband,

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Uriah the Hittite. I mean, that must have been something brutally agonizing to, to cope with mentally.

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Right. Right. Yeah. So there's that genuine guilt, you know, that David shouldered because he was the one who committed the sin.

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But then there's also imposed guilt that some people struggle with.

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Um, this is, this happens very often in the cases of death by suicide, that those who are, uh, those who remain alive, um, agonize and they agonize for a long, long time and, um, wondering what, what could

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I have done to, to change this? Was there something I could have done? Um, was

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I blind? Didn't I see this coming? And, or, or did I do something or not do something that contributed to this?

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And, um, so those thoughts can be so, um, condemning and crippling.

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And that too, again, is we have to go back to the word of God. We have to let the word of God speak to our hearts.

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And, and, um, in the case of David, of course, who murdered someone, he needed to face the

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Lord squarely, um, and confess his sin. In the case of the unexpected death of someone in our life, whether by suicide or some other means, uh, we must return to the fact that God is the giver and the ender of life.

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And, uh, somehow in the mystery of his sovereignty, um, and the fact that he knows the, the day, the day of every person's birth and the day of their death, um, we go back to trusting in that.

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That doesn't, of course, eliminate human responsibility, uh, for the person who takes their own life.

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But, um, you know, we have to continue to run back to the

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Lord as being the one who comforts us. Yeah. I want to return to that subject when we return from our break, because, uh, there are quite a number of Christians I know who have experienced the death of a loved one through suicide and they are shattered by it.

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They are confused. They don't know where to find peace because they don't know whether or not they should have any hope that this person is in eternity with Christ, or if, or if they should automatically assume that that person is lost forever.

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But, uh, we're going to touch on that when we return from our break. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Paul Tauches and the pain of empty chairs.

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If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Paul Tauches, and he is senior pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio, senior editor for Lifeline and many books, blogger at counselingoneanother .com,

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and author of many books, including one that is very much a part of our discussion today,

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Comfort the Grieving. Our theme today is The Pain of Empty Chairs, Facing Grief, Loneliness, Sorrow, and Suffering During the

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Holidays. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And we were, before the break, touching on the loss of someone in one of the most unusual and really what must be one of the most heart -wrenching ways or reasons to grieve,

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I should say, is grieving over the loss of someone who has taken their own life and suicide.

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And in fact, we have a listener who has a question about that. We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks,

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I don't know of any other scriptures that discuss suicide other than King Saul falling on his sword and the more famous incident of Judas hanging himself after betraying

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Christ. Are there other examples of suicide in the scriptures?

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Because one of the reasons why many people have no hope at all after someone kills themself is because of the fact that the two examples we have were evil people.

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So do you have any other examples in scripture that you know of? Yes, there actually is the example of Samson, who we have no reason given from scripture to not believe that Samson was a genuine believer in the

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Lord, though he obviously did some things that brought great displeasure and dishonor to the

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Lord. It does seem to indicate that that he did know the

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Lord. He certainly was chosen by God to be one of the judges to deliver his people from the

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Philistines. And though he had many faults, it does seem that he was a true believer who prayed to the

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Lord to give him that final moment of strength at the end of his life to collapse the temple on his captors.

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And even though he knew full well that that would mean his own death, he is listed in Hebrews 11, the great faith chapter, as one of many who through faith conquered kingdoms and administered justice and gained what was promised.

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And so some people question, well, was Samson's death, was it suicide or was it martyrdom?

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You know, I'm not sure we really need to make that distinction.

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So drawing a really hard line, I know some people do try to draw a very hard line on suicide being an ultimate determining factor of a person's eternal state before God, but I don't think we have enough information from scripture to come to the conclusion that a genuine believer cannot be brought to that depth of despair whereby that would be experienced.

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Now, of course, with Samson, it was more than just someone who could not handle the hardships of life anymore or was dealing with self -loathing or anything like that.

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There was a more noble attachment to his self -inflicted death, which brought about the death of others.

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Is there any indication from the scriptures that God was displeased with him for that? Not that I'm aware of.

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And as far as the, oh, by the way, thank you, CJ, in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

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And you have won, by virtue of your question today, you have won a copy of Comfort the

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Grieving. So we hope that that will bless you and bless others. But the issue that comes up with some folks, a lot of it depends upon what their theology is, what their theology is in regard to the loss of salvation.

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Is salvation, is true salvation? Does it have the possibility of, does a truly born -again believer have the possibility of losing salvation or eternal life?

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That I think is sometimes hinged on this issue because you have people who will say that automatically, if someone were to take their own life and die without the opportunity or the inclination to repent, because obviously not everybody who commits suicide dies instantly, but but they will say that that is a reason why suicide is an unforgivable sin, because the person doesn't have time to repent.

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And the difficulty that we have as Christians is when we try to give hope, when we attempt to give hope and peace of mind to those who grieve after someone has committed suicide, if that person who committed suicide was a professing believer, we want to give them hope, but we also at the same time do not want to lessen the severity or seriousness of that sin, because it is so final.

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How do you deal with that issue? Yeah, absolutely. You know, the same thing would be in the case of, maybe a little less intentional, but in the same case of a drug overdose, a heroin overdose, which is something we see in our city here in this area, averaging one a week.

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You know, when a person has willingly, deliberately, deliberately in the sense that it's their own choices that have brought them to that place of bondage to that drug, but by their own doing they have brought about their death, we certainly cannot sugarcoat the reality of the choices that the person made in order to get to the place where they got.

41:36

And that's where I think that it's really important that we go back again to God not only being sovereign, but God is the ultimate judge, and God is the one that we rest in.

41:50

We'll have questions in our mind concerning why a person died, and what brought it about, and who perhaps impacted them, and where are they now after death, but ultimately we will not get those questions answered in the here and now.

42:14

Ultimately, we have to go back to the character of God, and we have to come to the conclusion that says, okay,

42:21

God is just, and God always does what is just, and God is able to sort through things that we cannot sort through.

42:34

Yes, will not the judge of all the earth do what is right?

42:40

Exactly, yeah. But aren't there many circumstances that should not just obliterate all hope when it comes to someone who has committed suicide?

42:53

Like, for instance, there are people who attempt, and perhaps successfully attempt, to commit suicide.

43:04

I've heard that, in fact, I know of cases, people I know who if they are on some kind of an antidepressant medication, if they change medications, or if they just combine the wrong medications, that that can lead to suicidal tendencies.

43:22

In fact, you even hear those kind of warnings on television with certain types of medications.

43:29

And so you'll have a person who, if they were in their right state of mind, they would never even dream of committing suicide.

43:36

You have people that are brought to that point of committing suicide. Yeah, in fact,

43:43

Bruce Ray, in his little mini -book, his little Lifeline mini -book,

43:48

Help My Friend Is Suicidal, he brings up the example of a pastor who everyone was just stunned when he one night put a gun to his head and took his life.

44:05

And it was weeks later that his wife had discovered that he had been put on a new heart medication.

44:15

And it listed as depression and suicidal thoughts as possible side effects.

44:23

And had they known that, they could have removed the gun from the house. So certainly, those are factors that have to be remembered.

44:36

We live in a heavily medicated society, and anytime we do take something, we need to have knowledge of what are the potential impacts that it will have on our body and our mind.

44:51

Yeah, that's another difficult issue in and of itself. You have a divide amongst

44:57

Christians, and I think that both extremes could be life -threatening and dangerous.

45:04

You have the one extreme of people who are more than happy and content with the fact that the world of psychology and psychiatry seems to have medication as the first answer to any kind of difficulty in life.

45:27

And they prescribe mind -altering substances in a very free and easy way without much thought.

45:36

And you have people becoming addicted to all kinds of drugs as a result.

45:43

And then you have the other extreme where people think, there are Christians, professing Christians who think that under no circumstances should someone ever be medicated for psychological issues.

45:56

And you have people, unfortunately, who have very serious mental illnesses when they go off of the medication that they were taking, that they commit suicide or do something else that is seriously physically damaging to themselves or others.

46:14

But where are you on this issue of medication, knowing that you're a counselor? Don't you think that there is a danger on both sides of that spectrum?

46:22

Yes, definitely. I think there's a danger in both sides. We shouldn't swallow hook, line, and sinker the mentality of our society that wants to turn every behavior into a disorder and then medicate it.

46:41

But we also should not swing the pendulum completely in the other direction and somehow pretend that we have solved the mystery between the impact of the body and the soul.

47:00

Mike Emlett has a biblical counselor who's written a brand new book on that particular subject.

47:06

He calls what you just described the Goldilocks principle, those who are too hot toward medication, that is, think it's the answer to everything, those who are too cold toward it.

47:20

They've come to the point where they say, well, there's no such thing as mental illness. There's no such thing as a psychological problem that could be helped through medication.

47:34

And he's calling the church, he's calling us as Christians, as people who love the

47:40

Lord, to think about this in a more balanced way. In fact, he's someone you might want to have on your program at some point in the future.

47:49

Oh yeah, sounds terrific. That's not our topic, obviously, today, but years ago

47:57

I wrote a prayer for people who are left behind after suicide, and it's something that people can find on my blog.

48:08

Actually, there's a counselingoneanother .com on the right -hand column. If you scroll down, there's a list of all the categories, the topics, and suicide is one of the topics, and there are dozens of articles there that would be of help to people to be ministered to if they have been left behind after suicide, or if their friend, someone they know, is having suicidal thoughts, give some counsel there to them.

48:43

And, of course, suicide is never the answer, but some of us may be too flippant in our condemnation towards those who have either attempted or actually,

48:57

I hate to use the word successfully again, but they actually were able to carry through with the suicide, which ended in death, and where it involves people that have been in an excruciating physical agony.

49:11

Now, once again, I'm not in any way, shape, or form legitimizing that sinful, evil answer, because it is murder.

49:21

It's self -murder, but at the same time, the reason why

49:27

I'm even saying this is that we should not totally always abandon hope that the person who has committed suicide may be in eternity with Christ.

49:40

When we are to give comfort to those who are the remaining family members and loved ones, it isn't a blanket answer of the person is with certainty damned, am

49:52

I right? Yes, and there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is to absolutely refuse to come to the

50:03

Lord Jesus Christ, to believe on Christ and acknowledge who he is and what he has done.

50:10

Scripture says that someday in the future, every knee is going to bow before God in heaven and on earth and even under the earth.

50:19

So even people who have died without Christ are going to some day, even from hell, they will acknowledge his

50:33

Lordship. Of course, it will be too late at that point for them to be saved, but we need to understand that the only sin that is unforgivable is to turn away from the gift of salvation that God is offering to us in Jesus Christ.

51:00

And let's see, we do have a listener who has a question.

51:07

In fact, what I'll do is I will read the question and I will give the answer when we return from the break because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence, but we have a listener who is located in Lafayette, Colorado, Kelly, who is a first -time questioner, and she says,

51:38

Hi, Chris, I just enjoyed lunch with a dear friend of mine whose 18 -year -old son died unexpectedly last

51:44

September while running in a cross -country race. He had an undiagnosed heart condition.

51:51

As we were talking about her loss and the upcoming holidays, she told me how important it is that people acknowledge and talk about her son.

52:00

So often people feel awkward and don't know what to say, so they don't say anything, or they just avoid the grieving person altogether.

52:09

I would like Paul's thoughts on this and any advice he would give on how to talk to those who are grieving, specifically comforting things we could say or specific verses that would comfort.

52:23

And that's Kelly in Lafayette, Colorado, and we will have you answer her question when we return from the station break.

52:30

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

52:37

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence unless the question involves a personal and private matter, and you'd rather not bring attention or reveal your identity.

52:55

We totally understand a subject like this especially might lend itself to a question like that.

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But don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages with Paul. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

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01:00:22

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastors Study every

01:00:28

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

01:00:38

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

01:00:44

Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

01:00:50

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

01:01:01

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsin. Before we return to our discussion with Dr.

01:01:09

Paul Tauches regarding the pain of empty chairs, facing grief, loneliness, sorrow, and suffering during the holidays, we just have some important announcements to make regarding special events that are coming up.

01:01:22

First of all, coming up in November next month, from the 17th through the 18th, our friends at the

01:01:30

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and this is going to be held at the

01:01:43

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. The theme is for Still Our Ancient Foe, which is a reference to Satan from the classic

01:01:54

Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress, and speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

01:02:03

If you'd like to register for this conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

01:02:10

click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:02:17

I am going to be there, God willing, with an Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth, so I look forward to seeing as many of you as possible, especially all of you who live in or near Pennsylvania.

01:02:28

I would love for you to make every effort to be there, and it will be great to share fellowship with not only new acquaintances who

01:02:37

I've never met before, but also old friends who I know in and out of the audience of Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:02:46

So try to make it, if you can, November 17th through the 18th, and go to alliancenet .org,

01:02:52

alliancenet .org to register. And then coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th is the

01:03:01

G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and God willing, I will be there as well, manning an

01:03:08

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitor's booth. And this is going to be a very exciting conference worthy of traveling from wherever you live.

01:03:17

In fact, when I went to the last one, there were people from all over the world that went to the

01:03:24

G3 Conference, including the UK and other parts of the world and all over the

01:03:31

United States. It was just such a joy to meet so many people that I had never even heard from before, not even with questions during our live program.

01:03:41

I met so many people for the very first time who are longtime listeners of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, even some of them going back to 2005, when we first launched in New York.

01:03:53

But the speakers at the G3 Conference include Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

01:04:00

Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

01:04:12

The theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The 17th of January is exclusively a

01:04:20

Spanish -speaking edition of the conference with their own speakers who are fluent in the

01:04:27

Spanish language, but the 18th through the 20th is the English edition of the conference that will feature those speakers that I just listed.

01:04:35

If you would like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

01:04:42

and I ask of you, please, if you are registering for any of these events, please let those folks who are organizing them know that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:04:57

I'm so delighted that I am hearing from time to time from people who are registering, and they are letting me know that they have told the folks at these conferences that they heard about it through Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:05:11

In fact, today I just heard from First Love Publications, who is going to be manning their own exhibitors booth there as a result of hearing about the

01:05:26

G3 Conference through me and this program, so I'm just so delighted about that, and I hope that more of you follow suit and not only perhaps register to sponsor an exhibitors booth, but also just to attend, and I look forward to meeting many of you for the first time and also rekindling relationships with those whom

01:05:51

I have met before. Now I have to do something that I find very uncomfortable doing, as I keep telling you, but it's something that needs to be done if indeed

01:06:02

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is to remain on the air. We are in a financial crisis, and we definitely need the sponsorship of new benefactors and advertisers to keep this program on the air.

01:06:18

I have been silent about public appeals for donations and advertising for a long time, but several months ago

01:06:27

I began making these public appeals because those who advertise with me daily, who spend their hard -earned money keeping this show on the air, have urged me to make these public appeals because they don't want

01:06:40

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01:08:26

That is, of course, if indeed you want us to remain on the air. If you love this program, if you're edified by the topics and guests, then please consider donating as much as you can and as often as you can.

01:08:37

And now we are back to our guest, Dr. Paul Tauches, and we are discussing a timely theme with the holidays coming up, the pain of empty chairs, facing grief, loneliness, sorrow, and suffering during the holidays.

01:08:54

Our guest Dr. Paul Tauches is Senior Pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio.

01:09:01

He's a series editor for Lifeline Mini Books, a blogger at counselingoneanother .com,

01:09:08

and the author of many books including Comfort the Grieving, a book that has obviously a lot to do with the subject that we are discussing.

01:09:19

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:09:26

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

01:09:36

But before the break, we had a question from a first -time questioner, Kelly in Lafayette, Colorado.

01:09:45

She has asked, I just enjoyed lunch with a dear friend of mine whose 18 -year -old son died unexpectedly last

01:09:52

September while running in a cross -country race. He had an undiagnosed heart condition. As we were talking about her loss and the upcoming holidays, she told me how important it is that people acknowledge and talk about her son.

01:10:07

So often people feel awkward and don't know what to say, so they don't say anything or they just avoid the grieving person altogether.

01:10:16

I would like Paul's thoughts on this and any advice he would give on how to talk to those who are grieving, specifically comforting things we could say or specific verses that would comfort.

01:10:29

Dr. Tauches? Yes, I think that the question is an excellent one.

01:10:34

Sometimes we think that we are doing a service to people who are grieving by not talking about the loved one who is gone for fear that we would be the cause of more tears, that we would be, in a sense, picking a scab that shouldn't be picked again.

01:10:57

But really talking about the person who has passed away is one of the most wonderful ways you can minister to that person.

01:11:09

I like to ask questions. I like to just ask questions about the person who has passed away.

01:11:16

You know, what were some of the things that they really enjoyed doing? You know, what were their hobbies?

01:11:23

What are some of the ways that they really were a blessing to your family? You can encourage them to, you know, keep the memories alive.

01:11:38

I know that after my mother passed away eight years ago now, around Christmas time, it was such a shock to all of us.

01:11:50

She was healthy. We had no idea that she had a brain aneurysm. And so in a matter of three hours, she was taken from us.

01:12:01

And so that first Christmas was really, we were all still in shock.

01:12:06

And we were just doing our best to hold together and continue to love one another and remember mom.

01:12:17

But every Christmas, we do things. And it's not organized, but each of us kind of does something that we feel is a memory to mom.

01:12:28

One of the things I like to do is I like to bake one of mom's recipes that was always a favorite in the family.

01:12:38

And I'll bring that and I'll even say something about, you know, remember, these are mom's date bars or, you know, this is mom's

01:12:47

Heath Bar cake. And it's just another one of those little things that brings the memories back.

01:12:56

So I think that we need to be silent. There is a place for silence in that initial moment of shock and grief where you, it may be wise for you to not say anything, to just sit and be a comforting presence with someone.

01:13:18

But as time goes on, they need to talk. It's good for them to remember the good things that the

01:13:28

Lord has done through that person and the value, the great value that that person brought to their lives.

01:13:37

As far as scriptures, you know, to minister to them,

01:13:42

I would direct them to scriptures that model the peaceful trust in God in times of loneliness.

01:13:55

I like, personally, I like Jesus's um, uh, high priestly prayer in John 17 is very deeply ministering to me, knowing how the

01:14:11

Lord himself prayed for his disciples and prays for me. And I love the passage in John 14 where Jesus talks about the comforting presence of the

01:14:22

Holy Spirit and the peace that he alone gives that the world cannot give.

01:14:30

I think of some of the psalms like I had read earlier from Psalm 63 or Psalm 62.

01:14:42

There's Psalm 13, 5 to 6, which follows a time that we spoke of earlier of complaining to God, of lamenting, being honest with God about our grief.

01:14:55

How long, Lord? How long will I go through this trial? How long will it feel as though you have abandoned me?

01:15:02

But the psalm continues beyond that point to deal with just reminding us of God's steadfast love for us.

01:15:12

And I would be slow to, I would be slow to say things like, you know,

01:15:20

God had a purpose for this and he's going to use it someday. There's a time and a place for that, but you need to really minister to that hurting soul first with love, care, presence, involvement.

01:15:38

Whatever you do, don't forget. We think that people move on a lot faster than they actually do.

01:15:48

So this is a common refrain you hear from people who lose a loved one is that, you know, you get phone calls, sympathy cards the first few weeks, but after that, everyone else's life just goes on.

01:16:05

And if you can stay in contact with the person and not be afraid to talk about that loved one, that would be so helpful.

01:16:16

Yeah, there are, aren't there certain things that we might have to be very careful about when and where and how we remind them about a truth like you just mentioned that God has a purpose in this and he will work all things together for the good and so on.

01:16:41

Although that may not be always appropriate at certain times to throw at someone like a placard, of course, that's never appropriate to just speak flippantly.

01:16:54

Because even, you know, the tone of one's voice and the look in one's face can mean the world of difference when you're telling them something about a scriptural truth.

01:17:06

But even though it may not always be correct at a certain point to remind people of the fact that God has a plan for even a horrific event as the death of a loved one, that is something that when we are the ones going through the suffering and the pain and the grief and the sorrow, that we should remind ourselves of that.

01:17:32

That is for certain, isn't it? Oh yes, absolutely. And there will be the time when it is very, very appropriate and needful for the one who is helping the grieving person to be able to talk about that particular biblical truth.

01:17:49

I'm just saying that we need to be careful that we don't do that independent of loving relationship.

01:17:59

You know, we're quick to throw verses at people and then let them figure it out.

01:18:05

And I just think that in the case of this friend who, you know, so suddenly lost her teenage son, you know, this woman needs a friend.

01:18:15

This woman needs someone to take her out to coffee and take her out for breakfast.

01:18:23

Needs a minimum contact of every few weeks. And just loving relationship and how you're doing.

01:18:32

And maybe even doing normal life stuff together. Going shopping together.

01:18:38

Just get her out of the house. But when love is shown, and the love and compassion is shown in those ways, the doors to speak some of those harder truths are naturally going to open.

01:18:57

And that is when they're going to be most readily received and therefore then minister to the soul.

01:19:08

Well, we thank you so much, Kelly, for writing into Iron Sharp and Zion Radio for the very first time.

01:19:15

And because of the fact that you are a first -time questioner, not only are you going to receive a free copy of Comfort the

01:19:24

Grieving by Dr. Paul Tauches, but you're also going to receive a brand -new

01:19:29

New American Standard Bible because of the fact that you're a first -time questioner. And we're going to need your full mailing address in Lafayette, Colorado, so please email it to me as soon as you can at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:19:44

chrisarnson at gmail .com, so our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com

01:19:50

can ship both of those things out to you as soon as possible. We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Sharp and Zion Radio.

01:20:00

In fact, it was Todd and Patty Jennings who, I don't know how long ago it was, maybe two years ago, but they're the ones that first introduced you to me.

01:20:11

And I don't mean face -to -face, but I'm talking about your writing and so forth, and they urged me to invite you on to the program.

01:20:18

Oh, that's great, yeah. Todd and Patty are dear servants of the

01:20:24

Lord, and you know, before we move on to whatever specific thing you want to move on to,

01:20:30

Chris, I just thought I'd say a little bit more about that whole idea of ministering to one another in times of grief.

01:20:38

And you know, written communication is something that is going by the wayside.

01:20:46

Email is great. Texting is great. But you know, from time to time, it is so precious to receive a handwritten note in the mail, maybe with a couple scripture verses written in it.

01:21:05

Someone took the time to write that card. Someone took the time to address it.

01:21:11

Someone took the time to put a stamp on it. And there's a level of love and compassion that is communicated through that that we can't get through electronic communication.

01:21:26

And I would encourage that to anyone who's wondering how to minister to loved ones or friends who are grieving.

01:21:38

And to do it, you know, more than just the standard times of year, not just the

01:21:44

Christmas card or, you know, just whenever they're on your heart. And let them know that they're loved and they're being prayed for, and invite them over to gatherings.

01:22:00

And for the person who's grieving, that's really, really important. And maybe that's a topic we can move on to, is just what are some of the things that lonely people need to do that will help their own loneliness and help their own struggle?

01:22:20

Yeah, in fact, let's do that. I'm going to take our final break right now, so I don't have to interrupt you mid -sentence.

01:22:27

This will be a briefer break than the other ones. And if anybody would like to join us while we still have time, please email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:22:37

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence, unless you are asking about a personal and private matter and wish to remain anonymous, but only remain anonymous if it is a personal and private matter.

01:22:54

Don't go away, God willing we'll be right back after these messages with Dr. Paul Tauches. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round

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01:26:49

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Bibles, books, DVDs, CDs, and other things that they win through submitting questions to our guests.

01:29:43

And I wanted to read something, Paul, before we go on to the subject that you brought up of the loneliness aspect.

01:29:53

I just wanted to read to you a brief email that Kelly, who just wrote to us earlier, who won a copy of your book and won a copy of the

01:30:05

New American Standard Bible. She says, Hi, Chris. Thank you so much for Paul's wonderful, encouraging answer.

01:30:11

I cried when I listened to him. Your program is an immense blessing to me. I listen every day, usually podcast, today live.

01:30:19

Thank you. And still, listening to Paul, my friend said handwritten notes are very important to her.

01:30:26

She specifically rereads these notes often. He hit the nail on the head.

01:30:32

So glad he said this. Well, thank you very much again, Kelly. And I thought that that would bless you too as well,

01:30:38

Paul. Yeah, that's a great encouragement. And loneliness is something that is not only involved with anyone's death or anyone's divorce or anything like that.

01:30:51

You have people who are just lonely. You have people who perhaps have never even had a spouse.

01:30:59

Perhaps they've come from a small family. You just have people who are alone and lonely.

01:31:07

And that can be a very sad and heart -wrenching thing, especially when you know that there are families having fun and having a big crowd of folks around dinner tables every time there's a holiday.

01:31:23

And they may give reports of how much fun that they had and the people that traveled far distances to join them in the celebrations.

01:31:33

And these lonely folks are sitting very often home alone, eating a

01:31:39

TV dinner or what have you. I don't even know if they still call them TV dinners, but frozen dinner that they've heated up.

01:31:46

But if you could give us some words of encouragement and counsel in regard to this issue.

01:31:52

I would. I'd like to share some things that I've gleaned from, I think is one of the most wonderful little mini books written by Deborah Howard, a registered nurse.

01:32:05

It's called Help, I'm So Lonely. And during the break, I did go on to Cumberland Valley website and make sure that they have this.

01:32:13

And they do. It's a little mini book. It's only $3. It is worth way more than that.

01:32:20

It is so good. Help, I'm So Lonely by Deborah Howard. And so the counsel advice

01:32:28

I'm going to give now is really largely drawn from Deborah.

01:32:34

But for people who are the actual lonely person, and like you mentioned, it might be various reasons for loneliness.

01:32:47

Sometimes people who are still married, their spouses still alive are lonely.

01:32:54

They could be in a troubled marriage and be very lonely. They could be single and they feel like everyone in their life is is married or they could be elderly.

01:33:06

And they're starting to lose touch with their community. So she gives a number of really good reminders.

01:33:16

First to spend time with people. The loneliness can be a spiral where you feel lonely because you're not connected to people.

01:33:28

And because you feel lonely, you tend to want to spend more time alone. And that can be a vicious cycle.

01:33:37

So spend time with people. Determine that you're going to take that initiative.

01:33:45

Don't be afraid to cry. Don't be afraid to feel ashamed because of your loneliness.

01:33:54

Take those fears to the Lord. Take those feelings of loneliness to the

01:33:59

Lord. And when we say spend time with people, obviously we're not saying have no time alone, but have time alone that has a purpose.

01:34:16

If you want some alone time, one of the things Debra encourages is go for a walk and enjoy time in nature rather than just sitting at home because you'll be out and about.

01:34:28

You'll be getting some exercise, which is good. And you'll be out in the midst of God's creation, which just has a way of eliciting from us praise and positive reminders of the goodness of God in our lives.

01:34:50

She encourages lonely people to be sure they're taking care of themselves and eating properly and exercising and cultivating new interests, new hobbies, maybe pick up something that they've always wanted to learn, go to the local community college and take a class about something.

01:35:15

Set goals. Don't abandon church for sure. Christian people who are lonely, it's interesting as a pastor,

01:35:23

I see this quite frequently. I see people who are lonely and yet they don't come to the gatherings.

01:35:33

And then they complain about their loneliness. And there just comes a point in time where we have to make a choice that we're going to live again.

01:35:43

We're not going to be stuck in this dark valley of grief and despair and loneliness.

01:35:52

And also to feed on the Word of God, to stay in the Word of God. It might be hard some days, but the scriptures really are the bread that our souls need.

01:36:07

And so just taking initiative in those areas is going to be incredibly helpful for the person who is feeling stuck in loneliness.

01:36:19

Yeah, you said something very important about not forsaking the assembling of the brethren.

01:36:28

I think that it's a very dangerous combination or dangerous cocktail, no pun intended, when you are depressed.

01:36:39

And sometimes, and I know this from personal experience, having been someone who, when

01:36:47

I came to Christ, repented of the sin of drunkenness.

01:36:53

And then after 18 years of sobriety, fell back into that sin and went to a

01:36:59

Christian rehab ministry to get right with not only

01:37:05

God, but the church as well. And I thank God for Hebron Colony Ministries. I'll keep repeating that until I'm in heaven,

01:37:12

I think. Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina, which is a men's ministry for those who have abused drugs, alcohol primarily.

01:37:25

And they also have a branch for women in South Carolina, in Santee, South Carolina.

01:37:35

But self -pity and being alone and not having the brethren around you, where you are accountable to anybody, that's a very dangerous combination.

01:37:49

And very often, when we are feeling sorry for ourselves, we deceive ourselves into thinking that we deserve the right to abuse ourselves by using mind -altering substances and getting drunk, and so on.

01:38:05

Isn't that a very dangerous combination, self -pity and being alone? Oh, absolutely, yes.

01:38:12

Self -pity is such an enemy that we have to fight, whether we're depressed or whether we're lonely or that we're going through deep grief.

01:38:22

We can easily slip into the prison of self -pity, and it cripples us.

01:38:30

It damages our other relationships. It's just, it's so inward.

01:38:36

There's a place for legitimate grief, and I know this from personal experience, but you hang onto that grief for too long, and it really has a reverse effect, and it turns inward, and it becomes self -destructive, and it harms your ability to carry out your responsibilities in the way that God wants you to, and it ends up hurting other people.

01:39:02

So, there's a place for legitimate sorrow and grief, but we need to take those sorrows quickly to the rather than dwelling on them.

01:39:15

Amen. We have a listener, Joey, in Clifton, New Jersey, who says,

01:39:20

Hi, Paul. You and I met briefly after your breakout session at the recent

01:39:26

ACBC conference. Thanks for your ministry. What's ACBC? I don't know what that is.

01:39:32

That is the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Oh, yes, I've heard that before. I appreciate your heart of sympathy for those in grief.

01:39:41

Empathy is something that all Christians should be growing in as we grow closer to the

01:39:47

Lord. My question regards a practical matter that can sometimes become relevant to situations of comforting grief, particularly in the case of brother -sister relationships in the

01:40:00

Lord. What practical advice would you have to ensure that while bringing comfort, while bringing the comfort of Christ, we do not unintentionally cause a broken heart by the unintended consequence of attraction?

01:40:15

I have seen Christians be less than careful in this matter, and the consequences can be worse than the initial grief they were seeking to comfort.

01:40:25

Any practical ideas? Excellent word of advice there in being careful about those situations.

01:40:38

I even remember hearing a pastor saying that one of the things that he, or a couple of the things that he does when he is counseling women is that he always has a woman with him, but he also has the box of tissues right near the person that he's counseling to detract from any kind of, you know, unnecessary hug that may occur, and who knows what else would follow if the person was alone and etc.

01:41:09

We are all susceptible to temptation, and of course I'm not trying to nullify or put a prohibition on any kind of physical contact between brothers and sisters, but what do you have to say about what

01:41:25

Joey in Clifton, New Jersey has mentioned here? Yeah, I think it's a good honest question, because certainly you don't want

01:41:33

Satan to take advantage of that time of grief in order to further some kind of further destruction in that person's life by temptation and leading them into sin.

01:41:49

So I would say make sure you keep your boundaries wise and proper.

01:41:57

I would say that you should bring another sister into the picture, another sister in the

01:42:04

Lord as quickly as possible. You know, don't take the girl out to eat alone.

01:42:13

Make it a group activity with several other young believers who would be able to minister in this particular situation.

01:42:24

I'm saying young believers just because that's what I'm interpreting from the context. It might not be that situation, but bring others into the body, in the body of Christ, into that person's life, and help them and even pull them aside, perhaps privately, and say, you know,

01:42:39

I think so -and -so really needs a friend right now, and would you be willing to be that friend?

01:42:47

So be more of the facilitator of the grief ministry rather than the one who's actually carrying it out, you know, in person.

01:43:00

That would be my counsel to you. Thanks, Joey. You have also won a free copy of Dr.

01:43:09

Paul Tauch's book that we have been addressing today on grief, and make sure that we have your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can send you out a copy of Comfort the

01:43:21

Grieving by Paul Tauch. And I have,

01:43:27

I remember someone who is a Christian counselor said something to me that I think that they were very correct in the advice and counsel that they gave me.

01:43:40

I just didn't like the way that they said it. The person's, when I was opening up my heart about, this is during a period of dark depression and loneliness, and the person who

01:43:58

I knew personally, or know I should say, who is a Christian counselor basically said, why don't you just go to a soup kitchen, you know, for crying out loud, just get out of your house and do something that will be of benefit to somebody else.

01:44:11

And I didn't like the way that he said it, but there is truth in that, isn't there? Yeah, there was, there was, and again, that's just a good reminder that it's not just the content of our communication that is important, but it really is the demeanor of it, and Proverbs speaks so much about that, a word fitly spoken, and Colossians talks about our word being, a timely word being, seasoning like salt is on our food.

01:44:44

So sometimes we as Christians, we can be bold with the words we say, but very careless about the manner in which we speak them.

01:44:55

And I'm not saying we should tiptoe around everybody, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm simply saying let's use wisdom and grace and care, and try to speak to someone the way we would want to be spoken of in that situation.

01:45:11

And of course, going back to the actual rightness of what the person actually said, the content, that is something very valuable that we should be reminding ourselves when we fall into these pits of depression, that we really should be looking for ways to turn our own morbid introspection away from ourselves and turn our attention and our focus away from ourselves, and perhaps use our time and our energy and our gifts to be reaching out to people who might be in the same boat that we are in, and seek to bless them with the comforting words of Christ and so on.

01:45:56

And let's see, we have, well before I go to the listener who hasn't given me their location yet, so I'll wait and to see if they will give me their location,

01:46:12

I want to read a text of scripture that is a classic, that is something that I have read over and over and over again, because I think that it is so beautifully spoken by Paul, obviously

01:46:34

God -breathed, but using Paul as the human vessel through which we have the scripture in 1

01:46:44

Thessalonians chapter 4. Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed, this is starting at verse 13, brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind who have no hope.

01:47:03

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

01:47:11

According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the

01:47:18

Lord, we certainly will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the

01:47:24

Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

01:47:35

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the

01:47:41

Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever, therefore encourage one another with these words.

01:47:49

One of the things that this text reminds me of is that there are sometimes tendencies in certain

01:47:59

Christians where they may be paralyzed with doubt over whether or not their loved one made a clear profession of faith in Christ, who may have even lived the life of a

01:48:18

Christian, lived the kind of life that you would expect from someone who is regenerate. But perhaps because of the fact that, especially if we know them very well, we have very close and intimate friendships with them, we may know of their flaws, their faults, their sins, and we start to doubt whether or not the person is truly saved, forgetting the fact that we have our own flaws and faults and sins and so on.

01:48:49

But it's interesting, isn't it, that Paul basically is driving people to make the assumption, if these people believe that Jesus died and rose again, that they are going to be together with us again one day.

01:49:08

They are going to be with Christ, and we're not supposed to be grieving like those who have no hope, that we are supposed to have great hope and confidence that we will see them again and that they are in a far better place.

01:49:22

I know that that's a cliche, but in this case, when it comes to a genuinely born -again believer, it is true that they are in a far better place.

01:49:31

As someone once said to me, I think it was first said to me after my mother went home to eternity,

01:49:39

I believe it was my pastor at the time, Mike Gaydosh, he said, as much as your mother loved you and as much as you miss her, she would not leave where she is now for a second to come here to give you comfort.

01:49:55

She is an indescribable joy, and nothing would tear her away, even if she could voluntarily leave the presence of Christ.

01:50:07

Nothing could tear her away from that indescribable glory that she is experiencing.

01:50:14

But aren't we to not be overly speculative about what negative thing may be going on, or may have gone on, past tense in the lives of those

01:50:32

Christians that we've lost in death, and where to be, in general, just taking great hope in the fact that we know that they believed in Jesus?

01:50:42

Oh, absolutely, yeah. That's the root of our hope, and that's where we need to quickly shift our eyes.

01:50:53

Acknowledge the honesty of the pain, the grief, the loneliness, but as quickly as possible, make that intentional shift of looking with eyes of faith to the promise of God in the coming resurrection, and the eternity with Christ.

01:51:11

And yes, I encourage people to read some of the chapters that describe

01:51:18

Heaven as part of the grief ministry, so to speak, to themselves.

01:51:25

If they're grieving the death of someone who loved the Lord Jesus Christ, then, boy, read those passages of Scripture and Revelation that speak of what the

01:51:36

New Jerusalem looks like, and just be caught up in great joy for the gift of eternal life that God has given.

01:51:51

Yes, I think that one of the other things that has come to my mind in regard to this very thing is that I have met brothers and sisters in Christ who will speak with absolute certainty that their loved one who is dead, whether it's a parent or someone in their family or a friend or what have you, they'll be certain that that person is damned eternally, even if they were nowhere near that person when they perished.

01:52:30

And don't you think that we should be very careful not to draw such conclusions, such definite conclusions, especially if we know that we have been evangelizing this specific person or people?

01:52:46

And just because we weren't there when they departed from this earth doesn't mean that they didn't take hold by God's grace of the gospel that you presented to them in the past, and they could very well be in glory for eternity.

01:53:03

Yes, absolutely. That's a very dangerous statement to make. It's a judgment that we simply cannot make.

01:53:11

It is impossible for us to make that judgment. It must be left in the hands of God.

01:53:18

What we do know is that Scripture says that even at that last moment, if he or she cried out to God, maybe not even verbally, maybe they couldn't even talk at that point, but in the heart, the hearts cry to God in faith.

01:53:41

Only God knows that, and we need to leave that with God.

01:53:49

And we can also, if we have been faithful in giving them the message of the gospel, then we can walk away from that or move on, so to speak, with a clear conscience, knowing that we did what we were responsible for.

01:54:06

We are not responsible for a person's salvation. We cannot do anything to bring that about.

01:54:12

We are just the vehicles of the good news, the message, and if we've done that, then we can have a clean conscience about that.

01:54:23

But ultimately, God is the only one who knows what transaction did or did not take place in the heart of that person with God in those final moments.

01:54:38

We have a listener named Greg who has not given us his city, state, or country of residence, but Greg says,

01:54:48

My wife died earlier this year. How does one deal with grief and the guilt of losing his wife and no church home?

01:54:57

I guess Greg is saying that he does not have a church home.

01:55:03

I'm assuming that's what he means by that, but if you could respond to Greg. Can you read that again?

01:55:09

I didn't follow that. Yeah, he says, My name is Greg. My wife died earlier this year.

01:55:15

How does one deal with grief and the guilt of losing his wife and no church home?

01:55:25

Well, that's going to be very, very difficult. Obviously, there's the Lord and there's the

01:55:30

Word of God, but there's a desperate need for people, and if the man inquiring of this doesn't have a church home, then that needs to be the first thing that he does.

01:55:46

He needs to find a local church that will minister the

01:55:53

Word of God to him. Look for a faithful Bible -preaching church.

01:55:59

It might not be perfect in every way. I haven't seen one of those churches yet, but look for a church that loves the

01:56:08

Lord, that loves the Gospel, loves the Bible. Get involved, because without that people -to -people ministry, it will really be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to properly walk through grief.

01:56:28

And the reason I say that is because we were created by God to live in community.

01:56:36

God Himself has always lived in community, the Father, the Son, and the

01:56:42

Holy Spirit. They've never been lonely, because they've always been together. And so we've been created for community.

01:56:52

We've also been saved by the Gospel for community, and the community is the community of brothers and sisters in the

01:57:00

Lord, believers, which most visibly is displayed in a local church.

01:57:07

So I can't go through grief, you can't go through grief, nobody can go through grief alone.

01:57:14

You have to have people who are a part of that process, so that needs to be top priority.

01:57:22

Yeah, I know that I've repeated this many times on this program, but we have to be very careful that we're not rejecting

01:57:29

Jesus because of Judas, and there are people that will stay clear of any church because they may have experienced a horrible situation in a church.

01:57:41

Perhaps, you know, there's all kinds of things that we hear about pastors, you know, molesting people, and, you know, whatever the case is, that doesn't mean that every church on the planet is like that, or every pastor is like that.

01:57:54

And you have to seek out a faithful body of believers to attach yourself to, because it is a very clear command from Scripture that we are not to forsake the assembling of the brethren, right?

01:58:11

It is, and that's one of those cases where, you know, we can't control some aspects of our loneliness and grief.

01:58:19

We cannot control, we have no control over, but we do have control over a lot of aspects of our loneliness, and that's one of them.

01:58:29

We have control over how much will we be involved in other people's lives, how much will we interact with other people, and is it awkward?

01:58:41

Yeah, it's awkward, but at least at first it's awkward, and when you're adjusting to a new life situation,

01:58:51

I'm sure you have felt that, Chris, having lost your wife, that there are times in which you go to an event and it's just awkward that she's not with you, but you're doing it out of obedience to God, because you know you have to stay in fellowship with other believers.

01:59:11

I want to thank you so much, Paul, for being on the show, and I want to let our listeners know that the website for the congregation where you serve in Ohio is

01:59:20

CornerstoneMayfield .org, CornerstoneMayfield .org, and of course the blog is

01:59:27

CounselingOneAnother .com, CounselingOneAnother .com. I thank you so much for being on the program. I look forward to your return, and if you could hold on so I could say goodbye to you once again off the air.

01:59:38

All right, thanks so much, Chris. It's been a joy. And I want to thank everybody who wrote in today, and I want to thank everybody who listened also, even those of you who haven't written in, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater