November 1, 2017 Show with Paul Tautges on “The Pain of Empty Chairs: Facing Grief, Loneliness, Sorrow & Suffering During the Holidays”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com this is Chris Arns and your host of

iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday and Today is a

day that the first day of November 2017 that

is a day which brings us all closer to some major holidays and

major holidays can be such a time of joy and celebration and rest and

relaxation and refreshment and Rekindling relationships with folks

that you love that you haven't seen in a long time perhaps a whole year or perhaps even longer than that and

Also on the flip side of that coin.

They can be especially the hardest times of the year because of those empty chairs

those empty chairs of loved ones.

Who are no longer?

Celebrating those holidays with you whether they are loved ones perhaps whom you lost

in death.

I am myself a widower and I also know the pain of losing both my parents and

there are Many of you listening.

I'm sure that experienced those very same losses and perhaps even the

loss of children and of course siblings and other precious loved ones.

Friends that perhaps are dearer to you than even some of your family members were.

Well.

Today we're going to be talking about The pain of empty chairs facing grief.

Loneliness sorrow and suffering during the holidays and our guest to discuss.

This is Paul touches who is senior pastor of cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield

Heights, Ohio.

He's the series editor for lifeline many books.

He's a blogger at counseling one another calm an author of many books.

Including one that is going to be obviously of great importance for our discussion today.

Comfort the grieving, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron chirp and Zion radio.

Paul touches.

Thank you so much Chris.

It's always a joy to be on your program.

That's always a joy to have you on the program.

Dr. Touches and I want to give our listeners our email address if you have a question of your own that you'd like to

ask of Dr. Touches.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n ze

n at gmail .com and please as Always give us your first name your city

and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And of course you may remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter

over which you are asking.

And before we even go into the topic at hand, dr. Touches, I'd like you to

Explain once again or describe for our listeners, especially for the sake of those who haven't heard you yet on this

program.

Because we seem to be getting new listeners every day joining the audience of iron trip and Zion radio.

But if you could tell us something about cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio.

Yes an evangelical free church here in Mayfield

which is the Farthest East suburb of Cleveland.

We're a congregation of about 300 and just a wonderful congregation of

people who are loving the Lord and growing in their love for God and each other.

And one of the unique things about our church to the

strong and continuing to develop a Personal one -to -one ministry that we

call counseling.

Of course.

Talking about intensive discipleship loving one another helping one another through the struggles of life.

One of which obviously is the grief and the loneliness that that we're talking about here today.

Well, we'll be giving our listeners contact information Later on if

they'd like to visit a cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio.

But also, why don't you let our listeners know about your blog counseling one another calm?

Yes.

The the whole purpose of the blog is to help believers to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ to grow in the

balance of grace and truth.

Primarily to encourage other believers to grow in their walk with the Lord

so that they then can intentionally be ministering the word to one another.

It and.

The subject that we are addressing today as I said, it's a pretty

Universal subject especially when you get to be My age I'm 55

gonna be 56 in February.

The older you get obviously the more people you are going to lose.

You're going to have.

Not only loved ones die, but sadly, you know of people who are going through tragic

divorces and separations and all kinds of things like that and I have heard that

from those who have been divorced especially those who were the

innocent party in that Conflict or at least the more innocent party.

That this can be even more painful than death or losing somebody in death I should say

but What have you come to Realize

as a counselor as a pastor over the years.

That is unique about the holiday season when it comes to those Who

are mourning either the loss of someone in death or or someone who is perhaps?

Left Voluntarily in a divorce or separation or something like that.

Attention to the fact that you're Lee changed that

we're going to go to those events

alone

as a whole new.

So there are they just these constant reminders?

You have the reminder within of course of the loss and the grief that you're experiencing, but you have these

Constant reminders this time of year no

longer a part of your life

for whatever reason.

And so it it just keeps it at the forefront of your mind which then Gives you a

choice.

What are you going to do with those thoughts your mind?

Are you going to dwell on them and let them?

Control your emotions and spirals you

going to Discipline the thoughts of your mind.

Do you think

that?

One thing that we always have to remember when it is us personally.

Who are experiencing the pain.

The one who the ones who actually lost loved ones.

That we always have to be reminded of the sovereignty of God over all things.

It I think is a tragedy when people

constantly have the the heart -wrenching echo in their minds.

What if.

Perhaps there are people who are dealing with grief.

Who think that if they had done something differently their loved one would still be here but isn't isn't

the the.

Latching on to the fact that God is in total control a main source of peace.

Foundation stone Of any piece is to know that even though our whole

world is

changed life changes.

That God himself never.

That's one

of the reasons why

I often just reminding them that God is our refuge and strength a very present

help in trouble.

See and it goes on

and on to talk about.

There are so many things in our life that change things that are completely Beyond our

control.

Of course, there are things that are we then lead

to grief, but Many times it it's stuff that we just simply have no

control over and.

And this is where I believe God wants to use grief and

Loneliness that accompanies the grief.

He alone is the

one who never leave us nor forsake us

Comforter with us when we know the Lord

Jesus and.

Have you.

Come to a an opinion from counseling people and from Even just

meeting people who are going through sorrow and pain after a loss.

Have you heard the same thing that I mentioned earlier that?

As far as divorce and separation goes that that can even be more of a hardship on a.

Person than the actual death of a loved one.

Yes.

I have heard that I've not experienced that in my family or extended family, but I have.

I have counseled others.

I have known other Christians who have said that that is a very

very difficult worse than death because you know, that other person is

still alive somewhere on planet Earth and.

And there is this severed relationship bring

back together.

And God has to be the one to work in hearts and whatever, you know.

Whatever.

No, that is is to be restored to.

But yeah, because there is no finality death is a

finality and if the person who died knew the Lord Jesus and.

Obviously we as believers have a hope that goes beyond anything that this world can offer.

But yes those who have gone through the bitterness divorce

often grieve even worse.

Yeah, do you think that one powerful way why that may be

true is because there's something Different about losing someone

in death than having someone that you know is still out there who may

Hate you or despise you or the I mean that the very notion that somebody is voluntarily

wrenched themselves away from your life.

I'm assuming that that could be one of the major factors why such losses

are so difficult and agonizing to experience.

Continue to you to do

on your

end to be at peace with

someone he can do.

But interestingly the Psalms are filled with these kinds of examples.

Turn to those real loneliness

is by broken relationships and we find again The

reminder that in the end our ultimate comfort and hope can only

come you know a lot of people.

Who have suffered loss or they're going through depression?

They're they're battling with deep pain sorrow regret.

They may have a tendency whether they're believers or unbelievers to

complain to God and I know that.

There are those who I have heard endorse that who

go to I think a blasphemous extreme, but at the same time

it seems that David is doing that the psalmist a Man who is the

apple of God's own eye?

I mean, where is the balance there?

Is this ever appropriate to be complaining to God about this?

This agony that you're going through.

Oh.

Yes, I definitely think so.

They you know, there are the psalm

courage us to

difference though between that and what is sometimes encouraged.

We're not to come to God with any kind of finger pointing anger

to lament.

To be very open with God about the pain that we feel

enduring where we

injustice not treating us and that

essentially is a part of the definition of anger is that we get angry because We

believe there's been an injustice.

And to take that anger then and point it at God is to do something that's not

appropriate because God is just and God is righteous.

And so even though you have those examples in the psalms of Crying out to God in the deepest of

pain Some of the psalms are so

but even in the pain and even in the complaining even in the

lamenting faith.

That is still clinging that

sometimes that faith is very weak.

Sometimes it's very Feeble it feels as though it's just it's so thin.

Who to

turn.

God is our comforter and I don't think that wants us to

our conversations with him.

I think he wants us to be real and he welcomes that

so.

Give us perhaps an example of how David complained and yet didn't

cross the line.

Think of

Let me just read her

from

the end of the earth.

I call to you when I'm

our against the enemy.

Let me dwell in your tent forever.

Let me take refuge under the shelter.

He's crying out there as is an example of his

weakness.

He admits to God my heart is Faint I.

I need you to listen to me.

If you won't listen to me then and who will because he speaks of God

being the strong tower against it against this enemy.

So he has he has Enemies in his life and he's turning to God to

comfort him.

The psalm before that he says Oh God, you have rejected us.

You have been angry dope

and he lets breaches for you've made your people experience

hardship.

See he's he's complaining to God about his circumstances about the very things

that Brought into the

same time.

There's nowhere even

in the

midst of complaining about his circumstance.

Um, and even acknowledging that it is the sovereign hand of God

into his life

still just hanging on.

Maybe it's hanging on by a thread

keeping him connected to God

and.

Isn't Psalm 139 a psalm that David wrote after his

Committing adultery with the Sheba and plotting the death of her husband.

Yes.

Lord you have searched me and you know me.

Yeah, you know when I sit down and when I rise up you understand my thoughts from afar.

You Scrutinize my path and my lying down and are intimately acquainted

with all my ways.

Even before there is a word on my tongue behold Oh Lord, you know it all.

You have enclosed me behind and before and laid your hand upon me.

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me.

It is too high.

I cannot attain to it.

And of course, there's it's a much lengthier song than that.

That's only the first.

Five

or six verses of that

song about here to

Chris is we don't understand but we

continue

to cry out to him and the

psalms

are

praying

these

we

need

because Your steadfast and

rich

food and

my mouth.

Will I remember you upon my bed and meditate on you in

the watches of the night?

For you have been my help out

of your wings.

I was the choice to

live again.

And that's something that Needs to happen after a

major loss.

Sometimes we can Depression

and I want to live anymore and

he's saying I will I will I will and then he reminds him

Ben You have been my help and in the shadow of your wings.

I will sing for joy.

So there's this constant communication with the Lord whereby we are Honest about

than our fears at the same time.

Our faith is clinging To some of the most basis

of God which then feeds our soul

life.

Yes, and just as David had to experience I'm

sure that there are people out there who are in perhaps an even deeper mourning

as they grieve the loss of a loved one, but One of the reasons perhaps is

because They themselves Were involved Perhaps by

accident in the person's death.

Do we many of us have heard about a Very

famous Christian recording artists whose son accidentally Ran over the

adopted daughter of that artist and and of course, it was completely

unintentional and but there's still the The agony of of thinking that or of

knowing I should say that there is guilt involved in that that's We have

David Realizing after Nathan the Prophet

rebuking him that you know, he had committed this this wicked deed

Of not only committing adultery, but he actually plotted the murder of somebody plotted the murder of

the Shiva's Husband Uriah the Hittite, I mean that must have been.

Something brutally agonizing to cope with mentally, right?

Right.

Yeah, so there's that genuine guilt.

You know that David Shouldered because he was the one who committed the sin.

But then there's

also often in the

cases.

There's

something

I could have done.

Was I blind didn't I see this coming and or or did I do something or not do something that

contributed to this and.

So damning and crippling and that

too again is word of God.

We have to let the speak to our hearts.

And David, of course who murdered someone he needed to face the Lord squarely

and confess his sin.

In the case of the unexpected death of someone in our life whether by Suicide or

some other means we must return to the

fact that God is the giver and the ender of life and somehow in the mystery

of his sovereignty.

And the fact that he knows The day and the day of every

person's birth and the day of their death.

We go back to trusting in that.

It doesn't of course eliminate human responsibility.

For the person who takes their own life, but

continue to run back to the yeah.

I want to return to that subject when we return from our break because there are

Quite a number of Christians.

I know who have experienced the death of a loved one through suicide

and They are shattered by it.

They are confused they don't know where to find peace because they don't know whether or

not they should have any hope that this person is in eternity with Christ or Or if

they should automatically assume that that person is lost forever.

But we're going to touch on that When we return from our break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Don't go away.

God willing we'll be right back after these messages with Paul touches and the pain of

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Welcome back.

If you just tuned us in our guest today is Dr. Paul touches and he is

senior pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights, Ohio senior editor

for Lifeline and many books blogger at counseling one another calm and author of

many books Including one that is very much a part of our discussion today.

Comfort.

The grieving our theme today is the pain of empty chairs Facing grief loneliness sorrow and

suffering during the holidays.

If you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN is the energy mail .com and we were before the break

touching on the the loss of someone in one of the most

unusual and and really What must be one of the most heart -wrenching

ways or reasons to grieve I should say is grieving over the loss of someone who has taken

their own life and Suicide and in fact, we have a listener who has a question about

that.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Who asks I?

Don't know of any other Scriptures that discuss suicide other than King

Saul falling on his sword and the more famous incident of Judas

Hanging himself after betraying Christ.

Are there other examples of suicide in the scriptures because one of the reasons why

many people Have no hope at all after someone kills themself

Is because of the fact that the two examples we have Were evil people.

So do you have any other examples in Scripture that you know of?

Yes, sir.

Actually scripture was

a genuine Believer in the Lord though.

He obviously did some things that brought great displeasure and dishonor to the Lord.

It does seem to indicate that That he didn't know the Lord.

He certainly was chosen by God to be one of the judges To deliver his people from the

Philistines and.

And though he had many faults. It does seem that he was a true believer who? prayed to

the Lord to give him that final moment of strength at the end of his life to

collapse the temple on his Captors and even though he knew full well that

that would mean his own death he is.

He's listed in Hebrews 11, you know, the great faith chapter is one of many who who through

faith conquered kingdoms and administered justice and Gained what

was promised.

And some people question.

What was Samson's death?

Was it suicide or was it martyrdom?

You really?

Need to make that Make that distinct.

Some people do try to draw a

very hard line on Suicide being

Determining eternal state before God, but I don't

think we have enough information from Scripture to come to the conclusion that

That a genuine believer cannot be brought

to would be

now, of course with Samson.

It was more than just someone who could not Handle

the hardships of life anymore or was dealing with self -loathing or anything like that

there was a more noble attachment to his Self -inflicted death which

brought about the death of others.

Is there any is there any indication from the scriptures that the God was displeased with him for that?

And as far as the.

The oh by the way, thank you CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York and You have

won by virtue of your question today.

You have won a copy of comfort the grieving so we hope that that will bless you and bless

others, but the issue that comes up with

Some folks a lot of it depends upon what their theology is.

What their theology is in regard to.

The loss of salvation is salvation is true salvation.

Does it have the possibility of.

There's a there's a truly born -again believer have the possibility of losing Salvation or eternal life

that I think is sometimes hinged on this issue because you have people who will say

that automatically.

If someone were to take their own life and and die without the

opportunity or the inclination to repent.

Because obviously not not everybody who commits suicide dies instantly but but they will say that

that is a reason why suicide is an unforgivable sin because the person doesn't have

time to repent and the.

The difficulty that we have as Christians is.

When we try to give hope when we attempt to give hope and peace

of mind to those who grieve after someone has committed suicide if That person who

committed suicide was a professing believer.

We want to give them hope but we also at the same time Do not want to lessen the severity

or seriousness of that sin because it is so final.

How do you deal with that issue?

You know, the same thing would be in the case of maybe a little less intentional but in the

same case of a of a drug overdose a heroin overdose, which is something we see in our

City here in this area averaging one a week.

You know one of

our own choices

that

we cannot sugarcoat the choices

that The person made in order to get to the place where they got.

And that's where I think that it's really important that we go back again to

God not only being sovereign but God is the ultimate judge and God is the one that

we rest in.

And we'll have questions in our mind concerning Why a person died and and what

brought it about and who and where

are they now?

After death.

But ultimately We we will not get those in

the here and now.

Ultimately we have to go back to the character of God and we have To come to the conclusion that says, okay

God is just and God always does what is just.

God is able to sort that we cannot sort.

Yes will not the judge of all the earth do what is right and we.

But there are aren't there many circumstances That should not just obliterate all

hope when it comes To someone who has committed suicide like for instance,

there are people who attempt and perhaps successfully

Attempt to commit suicide.

They Are.

I've heard that in fact, I know of cases.

People I know who if they are on some kind of an antidepressant medication

if they change medications.

Or if they just combine the wrong medications that that can lead to suicidal tendencies.

In fact, you even hear those kind of warnings on television with certain types of

Medications and so you'll have a person who if they were in their right state of mind

They would never even dream of committing suicide.

You have people that are brought to that point of committing suicide.

Yeah, in fact Bruce Ray and his little

lifeline mini book help.

My friend is suicidal.

He He brings up the example

Stunned when he put a gun to his head and took his

life and it was weeks later that his wife had discovered that

He had been put on a new heart medication

depression and suicidal thoughts as possible side effects and

Had they known that they could have removed the gun from the house

certainly have to be remembered.

We live in a heavily medicated society and And anytime we do take something we need to

we need to have knowledge of what are the potentially Impacts that it will have on our

body in our mind.

Yeah, that's another difficult issue in it in and of itself you have a divide

amongst Christians and I think that both extremes could be life

-threatening and dangerous.

You have the one extreme of People who are more

than happy and content with the fact that the

the world of psychology and psychiatry seems to have medication as the first

answer to any kind of difficulty in life and the

prescribed Mind -altering substances in a very free and easy

way without much thought and you have people becoming addicted to all kinds of

Drugs as a result.

And then you have the other extreme where people think there are Christians professing Christians who think that

Under no circumstances should someone ever be medicated for psychological

issues.

And you have people unfortunately who Who have very serious mental

illnesses when they when they go off of the medication that they were taking that they commit

suicide or do something else that is Seriously physically damaging to themselves or others,

but where are you on this issue of medication knowing that you're a counselor?

Don't you think that there is a danger on both sides of that spectrum?

Yes, definitely.

I think there's a danger in both both sides.

We shouldn't swallow hook line and sinker the mentality of our society

turn every Behavior into a disorder and then and then medicate

it.

But we also should not swing the pendulum completely the other direction

pretend that we

Between the impact of the body and the soul.

Mike Emlett has a biblical counselor.

Who's written a Brand new book on that particular subject.

He calls what you just described the Goldilocks principle toward

medication that is think it's the answer to everything those who are too cold toward it.

They've come to the point where they there they say well, there's no such thing as mental illness.

There's no such thing as a Psychological problem that

could be helped through medication and He's calling the church.

He's calling us as Christians as people who love the Lord to to think

about this in a more balanced way and In fact, he's someone you might want to have on your

program at some point in the future.

Oh, yeah sounds sounds terrific.

That's not Our topic obviously years ago.

I wrote a prayer Decide and

it's something that people can find on my blog.

Actually.

There's a At counseling one another calm on the right -hand column if you scroll down

there's a list of all the categories the topics and Suicide is one of the topics and there

are dozens of articles there that would be of help to people to

be ministered to if if they have been left behind after a suicide or If their

friend someone they know is is having suicidal thoughts also

there to them and.

Of course suicide is never the answer but some of us may be too

flippant in our condemnation towards those who have either attempted or actually

But I hate to use the word successfully again, but they actually were able to carry through with the suicide and which

ended in death and Where involves people that have been in an

excruciating physical agony.

Now, I'm not once again I'm not in any way shape or form legitimizing that that

Sinful evil answer because it is murder.

It's self -murder.

Yeah, but at the same time The reason why I'm even saying this is that we

should not Totally always abandon hope that the person who has committed

suicide May be in eternity with Christ we

When we are to give comfort to those who are the remaining family members and loved

ones.

It isn't a blanket answer of the person is with certainty damned.

Am I right?

Yes, there is only one unforgivable sin and

that is to come to the Lord Jesus Christ to

believe on Christ and acknowledge Who he is and what he has done.

Scripture says that that someday in the future Every knee is going to bow

earth and even under the earth.

So even even people who who have died without

Christ are going to some even in from from

from hell, so it will be it'll be too late at that

point them to be saved, but We need to understand

that the only Sin that is unforgivable

turn the gift of salvation that God

is offering to us in Jesus Christ and.

Let's see.

We do have a listener Who has a question.

In fact, what I'll do is I will read the the question and.

I.

Will Have you take the.

I'll give the answer when we return from the break because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence

but we have a listener who is Located in

Lafayette, Colorado.

Kelly who is a first -time a questioner and She says hi Chris.

I just enjoyed lunch with a dear friend of mine Whose 18 year old son died unexpectedly last

September while running in a cross -country race.

He had an undiagnosed heart condition.

As we were talking about her loss and the upcoming holidays.

She told me how important it is that people acknowledge and talk about her son so often

people feel awkward and don't know what to say, so they don't say anything or they just

Avoid the grieving person altogether.

I would like Paul's thoughts on this and any advice he would give on how to talk to those who

are grieving Specifically comforting things we could say or specific verses

that would comfort and that's Kelly and Lafayette Colorado and we will have you answer her question when we

return from the station break and If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Once again, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a r n z e n at gmail .com and Please give us your

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private matter and you'd rather not Bring attention or reveal your identity.

We totally understand a subject like this especially might lend itself To a question like that, but don't go away.

God willing. We'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen before we return to our Discussion with

dr. Paul touches regarding the pain of empty chairs Facing

grief loneliness sorrow and suffering during the holidays.

We just have some important announcements to make regarding special events that are coming up.

First of all coming up in November next month from the 17th through the 18th

our Friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are having their annual Quaker

Town conference on reform theology and this is

going to be held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in

Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

The theme is for still our ancient foe which is a reference to Satan from the

classic Reformation hymn by Martin Luther a mighty fortress and Speakers include Kent Hughes Peter Jones

Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant.

If you'd like to register for this conference go to Alliance net org Alliance

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I am going to be there God willing with an iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

So I look forward to seeing as many of you as possible.

Especially all of you who live in or near, Pennsylvania.

I would love for you to make every effort to be there and it will be great to share fellowship with not

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it if you can November 17th through the 18th.

And go to Alliance net org Alliance net org to register and then

coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th is the g3

conference in Atlanta, Georgia and God willing.

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Manning and I am sharpens iron exhibitors booth and This is going to be a very exciting

Conference worthy of traveling from wherever you live.

In fact when I went to the last one There were people from all over the world that

went to the g3 conference including the UK and other parts of the world

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Not even with questions during our live program.

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But the speakers at the g3 conference include Stephen Lawson Votie Balcom Phil Johnson

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Anthony Mathenia Michael Kruger David Miller Paul trip Todd Friel Derek Thomas Martha peace

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The theme is Knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

The 17th of January is exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference

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and now we are back To our guest dr. Paul touches and

We are discussing a timely theme with the holidays coming up the pain of empty chairs

Facing grief loneliness sorrow and suffering during the holidays.

Our guest dr. Paul touches is senior pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Mayfield Heights,

Ohio C.

He's a series editor for lifeline mini books a blogger at counseling one another

Calm and the author of many books including comfort the grieving a book that

is obviously a lot to do with the subject that we are discussing and If

you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

CH r is a RN z en gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence and only remain anonymous.

If it's about a personal and private matter, but before the break we had a question from a first -time

Questioner Kelly in Lafayette, Colorado.

She is she has asked.

I just Enjoyed lunch with a dear friend of mine whose 18 year old son died unexpectedly last September while

running in a cross -country race.

He had an undiagnosed heart condition.

As we were talking about her loss and the upcoming holidays.

She told me how important it is that people Acknowledge and talk

about her son.

So often people feel awkward and don't know what to say.

So they don't say anything or they just avoid the grieving person altogether.

I would like Paul's thoughts on this and any advice he would give on how to talk to those

who are grieving.

Specifically comforting things we could say or specific verses that would comfort

dr. Tauch's.

Yes, I I think that the question is an excellent one.

Sometimes we think that we are Doing a service to people who are grieving

by By not talking about the loved one who is gone.

For fear that we would be the cause of more tears that that we would be in a sense

picking a scab that that shouldn't be picked again and Really

talking about whose past is one of the most

wonderful ways you can minister to that person.

I like to I Like to ask questions.

The person is passed.

They really enjoy doing you know, what were their hobbies to?

Your family.

You can encourage them to Keep the

memories alive after my my mother

passed eight years ago now around Christmas time.

It was such a shock to all of us.

She was healthy.

We had no idea that she had a brain aneurysm and so in a matter

of three taken from us and so that first Christmas was

still in shock and we were just doing our best to

Hold together and continue to love one another and and remember

mom.

But every Christmas we we do things and it's not organized.

But each of us kind of does something that we feel is a memory to mom.

One of the things I like to do like to bake one of mom's

Recipes that was always a favorite in the family and I'll and I'll bring that and and I'll

even say something About you know, remember these are mom's date bars or you know, these are this

is mom's Heath bar cake.

It's just another one of those little things that brings the memories back so I

think that we need to be Silence.

There is a place for silence in that initial moment

Achaan grief where you it may be wise for you to not say anything.

To just sit and be a comforting presence With someone but as time goes on

They need to talk.

It's good for them to remember The good things that that's a word has done through that

person and the value the great value that that person ought to their life

as far as Scriptures, you know to minister to them.

I would I would direct them to scriptures that will

trust in God in times of loneliness.

Jesus's free

prayer in John 17 is very Deeply ministering to me.

Knowing how the Lord himself prayed for his disciples and praise for me and I

love the passage in John 14 where Jesus talks about the comforting presence of the

Holy Spirit and and The peace that he alone gives that the world cannot give.

I think of some of the psalms like I had read The

three or the two

five to six which follows a

time that we we spoke of earlier of complaining to God of lamenting being honest with God about.

About our grief how long Lord?

How long will I go through this trial?

How long will it feel as though you have abandoned me the psalm

continues?

Beyond that point to deal with just reminding us of God's steadfast love or I

would be Slow to be slow to say things like,

you know God had a purpose for this and and and he's going to use it someday.

There's a time and a place for that but you need to you need to really minister to that

hurting soul presence involvement.

Whatever you do, don't forget.

We think that people common refrain you

hear from people who lose a loved one is that you know.

You get phone calls sympathy cards the first few weeks.

But after that goes on

with the person and not be afraid to talk

loved one.

That would be so helpful.

Yeah, there are aren't there certain things that? That we might

have to be very careful about when and where and How

we remind them?

About a truth like you just mentioned that God has a purpose in this and he will

Work all things together for the good and so on although that may not be always appropriate at certain times.

To to throw at someone like a placard, of course, that's never appropriate to just speak flippantly.

Because even you know The tone of one's voice and the look of one's face can mean

the world of difference when you're telling them something About a scriptural truth,

but even though it may not always be Correct at a certain point

to remind people of the fact that God has a plan for even

a Horrific event as the death of a loved one.

That is something that when we are the ones Going through the suffering and the pain and the grief and the sorrow

that we should.

Remind ourselves of that that that is for certain, isn't it?

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

And there will be the time When it is very very appropriate and needful for

the to be able to talk about that particular biblical truth.

I'm just saying that we need to be careful that we don't do that independent of

loving relationship

and figure it out and and I just think that in the

case of this friend who So suddenly lost.

This woman needs a friend.

This one needs

a minimum contact of every few weeks.

Loving relationship and how you doing and maybe even doing normal life stuff together.

Going shopping together.

Just get her get her out of the house.

When when love is shown And the love and compassion is shown in

those ways the doors to speak Some of those harder truths

are naturally going to open and And that is when they're going to be

most readily received and Therefore then minister to the soul.

Well, we thank you so much Kelly for writing into iron sharpens iron radio for the very first time

and Because of the fact that you are a first -time questioner

Not only are you going to receive a free copy of comfort the grieving by dr. Paul touches

You're also going to receive a brand new New American Standard Bible.

Because of the fact that you're a first -time questioner and we're going to need your full mailing address in

Lafayette, Colorado.

So, please email it to me as soon as you can At Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

So our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com Can

ship both of those things out to you as soon as possible.

We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support Of iron sharpens iron radio.

In fact, it was Todd and Patty Jennings Who I don't know how long ago it was maybe two years ago, but they're

the ones that first Introduced you to me.

I don't mean face to face but I'm talking about your writing and so forth and they urged me to Invite you

on to the program.

That's great.

Yeah, but I'd say

a little bit more about that whole idea of ministering to one another in times of

grief, you know written communication is Something that is

going by the wayside.

Email is great great.

But you know from time to time It is so

receive a handwritten note with a couple scripts.

Someone took the time to Write that card

someone took the time to address it someone took time to put a stamp on it and there's there's some.

There's a level of love and compassion that

we can't get through electronic communication.

And I would encourage that.

To anyone who's wondering how to minister to

friends who are who are grieving and And to do it, you know

More than just the standard times of year not just the Christmas card or you

know just whenever they're on your heart and Let them know that they're they're loved and

they're and they're being prayed for and Invite them over to

is grieving

important and maybe that's a topic we we can move on to is just.

What are some of the things that that lonely people need to do.

Own loneliness their own struggle?

Yeah, in fact.

Let's do that.

I'm gonna take our final break right now, so I don't have to interrupt you.

Mid -sentence.

This is we a briefer break than the other ones and if anybody would like to join us while we still have time

please email us at Chris Arnzen a gmail .com CH RIS a

RN z en at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

Unless you are asking about a personal and private matter and wish to remain anonymous.

But only remain anonymous if it is a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing. We'll be right back after these messages with dr. Paul.

Touches.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

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Hi, I'm buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CV BBS.

Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

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free Bibles books DVDs CDs and other things.

That they win through submitting questions to our guests and I

wanted to read something Paul before we go on to the Subject that

you brought up of the loneliness aspect.

I just wanted to read to you a brief email that Kelly who Just

wrote to us earlier who won a copy of your book and I want a copy of the New American

Standard Bible.

She says hi Chris.

Thank you so much for Paul's wonderful encouraging answer.

I cried when I listened to him.

Your program is an immense blessing to me.

I listen every day usually Podcasts today live.

Thank you and still listening to Paul.

My friend said handwritten notes are very important to her.

She specifically rereads these notes often.

He hit the nail on the head.

So glad he said this.

Well, thank you very much again, Kelly.

And I thought that that would bless you too as well Paul.

Yeah, and.

Loneliness is something that is not only involved with anyone's

death or anyone's divorce Or anything like that.

You have people who are just lonely.

You have people who?

Perhaps have never even had a spouse.

Perhaps they have.

They've come from a small family.

You just have people who are alone and lonely and that can be a

Very sad and heart -wrenching thing, especially when you know that there are families

having fun and having a big crowd of folks around their dinner tables every time there's a

holiday and and they may give reports of how much fun that they had and

the people that traveled far distances to join them in the celebrations and.

These lonely folks are sitting very often home alone eating

TV dinner or what -have -you.

I don't even know if they still call them TV dinners, but Frozen dinner that they've heated up.

But if you could give us some words of encouragement and counsel in regard to this issue.

I would I'd like to share some things that I

clean I think

is and during the break I did go on to Cumberland Valley website and make

sure that they have this little mini book it's

only $3 only

by Deborah Howard and so the The counsel advice I'm going to give now

is really largely drawn from from Deborah

for people who are the actual Lonely person and like you mentioned it

it might be Various reasons for a lot

of people who are still married.

I've are lonely They could be in a troubled marriage and be very lonely.

They could be Single and they feel like everyone in their life is Is married

or they could be elderly and they're starting to lose touch with their

community so she gives a number of Really good reminders

to spend time with people.

The loneliness can be a spiral where you feel lonely Because you're not

Connected to people and because you feel lonely you Tend to want to spend more

time alone and that can be a vicious a vicious cycle.

So spend time with people Determine that that you're going to take that

initiative.

Don't be afraid to cry.

Don't be afraid to Feel ashamed Because of your

loneliness take those take those fears to the Lord take those Those feelings of loneliness to

the Lord when we say spend time with people obviously we're

not saying Have no time alone, but I have time alone.

It has a purpose some alone

time one of the things Deborah encourages is is go for a walk and enjoy

time in nature rather than just sitting at home because You'll be out and about you'll be getting some exercise, which is

good and You'll be out in the midst of God's creation

Has a way of you know, eliciting from us praise and

positive Reminders of the goodness of God

she encourages lonely people to be sure they're taking care of themselves in

eating properly and exercising and Cultivating new interests

new hobbies, maybe pick up something that they they've always wanted to learn go to the

local community college and Take a class about something

Set goals don't abandon church for sure Christian people who are lonely.

It's interesting as a pastor.

I see this quite frequently.

I see people who are lonely And yet they don't come to

the gatherings and then they complain about their loneliness and And

It just comes a point in time where we have to make a choice that we're gonna live again we're not gonna we're not gonna be stuck

in this dark valley of grief and Despair and lone loneliness

and also to feed on the Word of God to stay in the Word of God.

It might be hard some days.

There's really are red that that our

souls need taking initiative

in those areas is going to be Incredibly helpful.

Yeah, you said something very important about not forsaking

the assembling of the brethren The I think

that it's a very dangerous combination or dangerous cocktail

no pun intended when you are depressed and Sometimes and

I know this from personal experience having been someone Who when I came to

Christ repented of the sin of Drunkenness

and then after 18 years of sobriety fell back into that sin and went to a

Christian rehab ministry to Get right with not only God,

but the church as well.

And and I thank God for Hebron colony ministries I'll keep repeating that until I'm in heaven.

I think Hebron colony ministries and Boone, North Carolina, which is a men's

ministry for those who have abused drugs alcohol

primarily and they also have a a Branch

for women in South Carolina in Santee, South Carolina, but

Self pity And And being alone and not

having the brethren around you where you are accountable to anybody That's a very dangerous combination

and very often when we are feeling sorry for ourselves we deceive ourselves into

thinking that we deserve the right to abuse ourselves by By

using mind -altering Substances and getting drunk and so on isn't that a

very dangerous combination self -pity and being alone.

Yes, self -pity is such an enemy That we have to fight

whether we're depressed or whether we're lonely or there were going through deep grief.

We can easily slip into the to the prison of self -pity and

It cripples us it damages our other relationships.

It's just it's so inward.

There's a place for legitimate grief and and I know this from personal expect

grief for too long and it really has a reverse effect and it turns inward and it becomes

self -destructive and it harms your ability to

abilities in the way that God wants you to and Ends up hurting other people.

So the place for legitimate sorrow and grief

dwelling on them.

We have a listener Joey in Clifton, New Jersey Who says hi Paul you and I met

briefly after your breakout session at the recent ACBC conference.

Thanks for your ministry.

What's a CBC?

I don't know what that is.

Oh, yes, I've heard that before I Appreciate your heart of sympathy for those in grief.

Empathy is something that all Christians should be growing in as we grow closer to the Lord.

My question regards a practical matter That can sometimes become relevant to

situations of comforting grief particularly in the case of brother

-sister relationships in the Lord.

What practical advice would you have to ensure that while bringing comfort?

While bringing the comfort of Christ we do not unintentionally cause a broken heart by the

unintended consequence of attraction.

I have seen Christians be less than careful in this matter and the consequences

can be worse than the initial grief.

They were seeking to comfort any practical ideas.

They have excellent Excellent word of

Advice there and being careful about those situations and I even

remember hearing a pastor Saying that one of the things that he or

a couple of the things that he does when he is Counseling women is that he always has a woman with him.

But he also has the box of tissues right near the person that he's counseling

to to detract from any kind of you know Unnecessary

hug that may occur and and who knows what else would follow if the person was alone and etc.

We are all Susceptible to temptation and of course, I'm not trying to

nullify Or put a prohibition on any kind of physical contact

between brothers and sisters.

But what do you have to say about what Joey in Clifton, New Jersey has mentioned here?

Yeah, I think it's a good honest question because certainly you don't want Satan to take advantage of that

that time of grief in order to further some kind of

further destruction in that person's life by Temptation and leading them into sin

and make sure you keep your boundaries

wise and proper you should.

Bring another sister into the picture another sister in the Lord.

Quickly as possible.

Don't take the girl out to eat alone.

Make it a group activity and you know.

Make it a group activity with several other Young believers who would be able to minister

in this particular situation.

I'm saying young believers just because that's what I'm interpreting from the context it it

might not be that situation, but bring others into the body in the body of Christ into that person's life and

Help them and even pull them aside perhaps privately and say, you know I know I think so -and -so really

really needs a friend right now and would you be willing to be that friend so be

more of a facilitator of the Grief ministry rather than the

one who's actually carrying it out.

That would be that would be my counsel to you.

Thanks, Joey.

You have also won a free copy of dr Paul touches book that

we have been addressing today on grief and Make sure that we have your full mailing address so

that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can send you out a copy of comfort the grieving by Paul

touches and I.

Have I remember someone who is a Christian counselor?

Said something to me that I think that they were very Correct in the advice and counsel

that they gave me.

I just didn't like the way that they said it.

The person's the part when I was Opening up my heart about

this is during a period of dark depression and loneliness and the

The person who I knew personally or know I should say who is a Christian counselor

basically said why don't you just go?

To a soup kitchen, you know for crying out loud.

Just get out of your house and do something that will be of benefit to somebody else and I didn't like

the way that he said It.

But there is truth in that isn't.

Yeah, there was there was but and again, that's just a good reminder that It's

not just the content of our communication.

That is important but it really is the demeanor of it and Proverbs speak

and and You know Colossians talks about our word being a

timely word being Seasoning like

sometimes we is as Christians.

We can be bold with The words we say but very careless.

I'm not saying we should tiptoe around everybody.

That's not at all what I'm saying.

I'm simply saying let's use wisdom and grace and care and And try to speak to someone the way

we would want to be spoken of in that situation.

And of course going back to the Actual rightness of what the person

actually said the content that is something very valuable that we should be.

Reminding ourselves when we fall into these pits of depression that we really should be.

Looking for ways to turn our own morbid introspection

Away from ourselves and turn our attention and our focus away from ourselves and

perhaps use Our time and our energy and our gifts to be reaching out to people who might

be in the same boat that we are in and seek to bless them with the

comforting words of Christ and so on and

Let's see we have Well before I go to the

the listener who Hasn't given me their location yet.

So I'll wait and to see if they will give me their the location.

I want to I Want to read a text of Scripture that

is a classic that is Something that I have read over and over

and over again because I Think that it is so beautifully

Spoken by Paul obviously God breathed.

But using Paul as the human vessel through which we have this scripture in the

first of Thessalonians chapter 4.

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed.

This is starting at verse 13.

Brothers and sisters We do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death so that you do not

grieve.

Like the rest of mankind who have no hope for we believe that Jesus died and rose again.

And so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

According to the Lord's Word we tell you that we who are still alive who are left

until the coming of the Lord.

We certainly Will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep for the

Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command with the voice of The

Archangel and with the trumpet call of God and the dead in Christ will rise first after that.

We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together With them in the clouds to meet the

Lord in the air and so we will be with the Lord forever.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

One of the things that reminds that this text reminds me of

Is that there are sometimes tendencies in certain Christians?

Where they may be paralyzed with doubt over whether or

not their loved one who made a clear profession of faith in

Christ who may have even lived the the life Of a Christian

that Lived the kind of life that you would expect from someone who is regenerate but perhaps

Because of the fact that if we especially if we know them very well, we have very close and intimate friendships

with them.

We may know of their flaws their faults their sins and we start to doubt

Whether or not the person is truly saved forgetting The fact that we have our own

Flaws and for faults and sins and so on but it's interesting, isn't it

that Paul? basically is driving people to

Make the assumption if these people Believe that Jesus died and rose again.

That they are going to be together with us again one day.

They are going to be with Christ and we're not supposed to be grieving like those who?

Have no hope that we are supposed to have great hope and confidence.

That we will see them again and that they are in a far better place.

I know that that's a cliche but in this case when it comes to a genuinely born -again believer, it is

true that they are in a far better place as Someone once said to me.

I Think it was first said to me after my mother went home to eternity.

I.

Believe it was my pastor at the time Mike Adosh.

He said as much as your mother loved you and as much as you miss her.

She would not leave where she is now for a second.

To come here to give you comfort.

She is an indescribable joy and nothing would.

Nothing would tear her away.

Even if she could voluntarily leave The presence of Christ nothing could tear her away

from that that indescribable glory that she is experiencing.

But Aren't we to not be over?

Overly speculative about what negative thing may be

Going on in.

Or may have gone on past tense in the lives of those Christians that we've lost in death.

And and we're to be in general just taking great.

Hope in the fact that we know that they believed in Jesus.

Oh.

Resurrection eternity with Christ.

And and and yes, you know I encourage people to to read some of the

chapters that describe heaven, you know as part of The the grief

ministry so to speak to themselves.

If they're grieving the death of someone who Jesus Christ then boy

read those passages of Scripture and Revelation and speak of of what the new Jerusalem

looks like and.

And just be caught up gift

of eternal life that God has given.

Yes, I think that that.

One of the other things that has come to my mind In regard to this very thing

is that I have met brothers and sisters in Christ Who will speak

with absolute certainty?

That their loved one who is dead whether it's a parent or someone in their family or someone

a friend or what?

Have you?

They'll be certain that that person is damned eternally Even if they were

nowhere near that person when they perished.

And don't you think that we should be very careful not to draw such?

Conclusions.

Such definite conclusions if especially if we know that we have been evangelizing

the this specific person or people.

And just because we weren't there When they departed from this earth doesn't mean

that they didn't Take hold by God's grace of the gospel that you presented to them in the

past.

And they they could very well be in glory for eternity.

Yes, absolutely.

That's a very dangerous Statement to make it's a judgment that we simply cannot make.

It is impossible for us to make that judgment.

It must be left in the hands of God.

What we do know even at that lady

or she cried out to God

even.

Maybe not even verbally maybe couldn't even talk at that

point, but only God knows that

we need to leave that with God.

And We can also if we have been faithful and giving

them.

Well, then we can walk away from that.

Or move on so to speak with a clear conscience knowing that We did

what we were responsible for.

We are not responsible for a person's Salvation.

We cannot do anything to bring that about.

We are just the vehicles of the the good news the message and if we've done that Then

we can.

We can have a clean conscience about but ultimately God's the only God is the only one

who knows.

What transaction did or did not take place in the heart of that person?

We have a listener named Greg who has not given us his

city state or country of residence, but Greg Says my wife died earlier this year.

How does one deal with grief and the guilt of losing his wife and no church

home?

I guess the person I guess Greg is Saying that he does not have a church home.

I'm assuming that's what he means by that.

But if you could respond to Greg, can you can you read that again?

I didn't follow that.

Yeah, he says.

My name is Greg.

My wife died earlier this year.

How does one deal with grief and the guilt of losing his wife and no

church home?

It's gonna be very very difficult Lord, and there's the Word of God, but

There's a desperate need for people and if the man

inquiring of this Doesn't have a church home. Then then

that needs to be the first thing that he does.

He needs to find a Local church

minister.

The Word of God to him.

Look for a faithful Bible preaching church.

It might not be perfect in every way.

I haven't seen one of those churches yet, but Look for a church that loves the Lord that

loves the gospel loves the Bible.

Get involved because without that people to people

ministry really be extremely

difficult to do properly.

Walk through grief.

And the reason I say that is because we're created by God to live

in community.

God himself Has always lived in community the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

They've never been lonely because they've always been together and So

we've been created for community.

We've also been saved by the gospel and the community is the

community of brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Which most visibly is displayed? in a local church, so I Can't go

through grief.

You can't go through grief.

Nobody can go through grief alone.

You have to have people to be top priority.

Yeah, I know that I've repeated this many times on this program, but we have to be very careful that we're not

rejecting Jesus because of Judas and there are people that

Will stay clear of any church because they may have experienced their horrible situation in a church

perhaps.

You know, there's all kinds of things that we hear about Pastors, you know molesting people and you know.

Whatever the case is that doesn't mean that every church in the planet is like that or every pastor is like that

and you have to seek out a faithful body of believers

to attach yourself to because that is the The the very it is a very

clear command from Scripture that we are not to forsake the assembling of the brethren, right?

Some aspects of our loneliness and grief.

We cannot control we have no control over.

But we do have control over a lot of aspects.

That's one of them.

We we have control over involved in

other people's lives.

How much will we?

Interact with other people and is it awkward?

Yeah, it's awkward at least at first.

It's awkward.

And when you you're adjusting to a new life situation I'm sure I'm sure you have felt that Chris having lost your wife

that yes.

There are times in which you go to an event and it's just awkward that she's not with you.

But but you're you're doing it out of obedience to God because you know.

You have to stay in fellowship with other believers.

I want to thank you so much Paul for being on the show and I want to let our listeners know that the website

for the congregation where you serve in Ohio is cornerstone Mayfield org.

Cornerstone Mayfield org and of course The blog is counseling one another calm

counseling one another calm.

I thank you so much for being in the program.

I look forward to your return and if you could hold on so I could say goodbye to you.

Once again off the air and I want to thank everybody who wrote in today.

And I want to thank everybody who listened also Even those of you who haven't written in and I

want You all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

Than you are a sinner.