Dan Wallace's Actual Words

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good afternoon, welcome to the Dividing Line on a Thursday afternoon.

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Yes, this is James White and no, your player is not going at low speed.

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It is spring in Phoenix and last year,

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I think, I don't know, I don't remember these things, but I think I managed to skip this last year.

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But basically, about two out of every three years, come the spring in Arizona, I take a trip somewhere,

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I pick up a respiratory infection, and then it turns into this deep in the lungs asthma type thing till about May.

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And I walk around clearing my throat, making odd, strange noises and feel fine, but sound horrible.

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So what can I say? That's just, actually, if I wanted to do some radio voiceovers right now, this would be the time to be doing it.

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Actually, I can barely hear myself. That may be a function of, I don't know what that's a function of, but that's fine. But I have a nice, low voice now and it doesn't hurt.

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I know I'm fighting something. I just actually took a baptinep to try to help get over it a little bit faster.

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So the brain synapses may not be moving, working quite as quickly as normal, which some people would say is very slow at normal speed and now will even be worse.

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But we'll see. Our plan for the dividing line today is to continue our response to Wajdi Akhavi.

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And then in the last half hour of the program, we will have open phones. So if you would like to get in touch with us, you can do so.

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And I've got my cough button right within range here. When you hear breaks, just brief breaks, just stay calm, doesn't mean you've lost your connection.

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It means I'm pushing a button and trying to get things back to functional status again.

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Anyway, we will have open phones at 877 -753 -3341 starting in about an hour from now.

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So feel free to call in and there's just so many people that are so brave behind keyboards that, of course, have an open invitation at all times to call the program.

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But they never do. So those of you who have serious questions might want to call in as well.

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But before we get to continuing our response, and I hope Mr. Akhavi will give me a few moments, this is relevant actually,

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I think, would probably be relevant to him as well. I hope he'll take a chance, take an opportunity to listen to this as well. But, yeah,

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Guardian, GuardianOnline47, he's been on hold for how many years now?

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Three years, something like that, yeah, from the Catholic Answers Forums, that'd be great. Anyways, the audio of the debate with Bart Ehrman became available overnight.

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And I listened this morning. The presentations were pretty much the same as they had been just a few weeks ago.

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There was not nearly as much interaction and audience participation. So I didn't think it was quite as valuable along those lines as I would like it to have been.

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But we do have the specific statements from Dan Wallace.

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I've got them queued up. It's just a minute and a half, two minutes. Concerning the forthcoming publication, evidently in January of 2013, of a book by Brill.

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Documenting the discovery of a number, from what Dan is saying here, I would guess, six papyri manuscripts, fragments from the first and second centuries of the

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New Testament. Increasing the number of manuscripts available to us in that time period from 12 to 18.

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That is a very large percentage increase. And ironically, even in the face of that,

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Bart Ehrman challenged Dan, just as he challenged me. And this is what

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I don't understand, because Dan had made that statement about a dozen manuscripts in the second century in the first debate they did at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

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And Ehrman never challenged him. He challenged me. I didn't expect him to because he hadn't challenged

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Wallace. He didn't challenge Dan in their second debate, but finally in the third debate he finally gets around to it.

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Which I found very odd. So anyway, I have the audio,

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I want to play you the audio, of what Dan Wallace said, specifically, concerning this forthcoming material.

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And then we will get back to our comments to Wajdi Akhavi. Fifth and finally, to take

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Mark's Gospel as an illustration again, even if we had no rock -solid evidence of what Mark's Gospel looked like in the first century, we have overwhelming evidence that it is hardly different from what scholars have constructed from the available evidence.

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Of course, to demand a first century copy of Mark goes far beyond what is demanded for any other ancient literature.

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However, in the last few months, several very early fragments of the New Testament have been discovered. These will be published by an international scholarly publishing house in a book one year from now.

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By way of background, prior to this book, I mentioned that we knew of as many as a dozen second century manuscripts from the

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New Testament that were in the second century. Once the book is published, the numbers will change dramatically.

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As many as 18 New Testament manuscripts from the second century. Among the finds was also a fragment of Luke that is from the early second century.

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It thus rivals P52, that fragment that Bart showed you. The manuscript traditionally considered to be the oldest

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New Testament manuscript known to exist. And yet, this new

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Luke fragment is not the oldest New Testament manuscript. The oldest manuscript of the

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New Testament is now a fragment from Mark's gospel that is from the first century.

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How accurate is the dating? Well, my source is a papyrologist who worked on this manuscript, a man whose reputation is unimpeachable.

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Many consider him to be the best papyrologist on the planet. His reputation is on the line with this dating, and he knows it.

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But he is certain that this manuscript was from the first century. This papyrus fragment, just like the other new discoveries that we are preparing for publication, strongly confirms what most scholars have already said is the original text.

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Well, in conclusion, is the original New Testament... So, there you go. There's what Dan had to say.

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So, he makes specific reference to a Lukan fragment that rivals

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P52, which means 125 or earlier, and a Markan fragment.

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Now, that's important because we had very little papyri. We certainly don't have a full papyri copy of Mark.

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And P47, as I recall, off the top of my head, I wasn't reviewing it before the program, but about the only papyri fragments we had of Mark at that time.

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And so, again, believe me, once there is a listing of this book anywhere, we will have it on pre -order, and we will pay for whatever shipping it takes.

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And I will be extremely excited to see this. But, I'm just telling you right now, there will be a pushback against it when it comes out.

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There will be those who, even before it comes out, will start questioning the early dating.

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There will be others who will put these fragments in the 3rd century someplace, or maybe the 1st century into the 2nd century, that type of thing.

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And that will go back and forth for a number of years, until some type of settled consensus can be arrived at that may or may not answer many of the questions.

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But I will give you my predictions right now, that while these fragments might shed light on particular textual variants, what they will do is what every other early manuscript find has done, and that is demonstrate that we possess the text of the

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New Testament already. They will just simply give us earlier and earlier attestation of that.

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And so I think it is exciting. I very much look forward to it. I look forward to amending my

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New Testament reliability presentations in light of it. And then getting to tell the story about how only a few years ago,

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I gave you these numbers. And they have now improved. They have increased.

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And that's an exciting thing. But again, we just need to be careful not to jump too quickly on to incorporation of that information material, until there has been, you know, the responses, and then the counter responses, and then a scholarly consensus.

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And even then, remember, scholarly consensus does not necessarily mean almost anything at times.

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Remember, there was a, depending on how you define, for example, the term critical scholarship. In fact, I was listening to this debate this morning, and Dan had to point out that for Bart Ehrman, critical scholarship means the scholars who agree with me.

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And he is correct about that. That is how Bart Ehrman views things.

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And, you know, he guards his, he is careful to guard his statements along those lines.

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But that is how he functions. And there was a time when, quote unquote, critical scholarship, back in the 1870s, was certain that the

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Gospel of John had not been written until at least 175 AD. So just keep those things in mind when you hear what people are saying.

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All right. With that, let's move back to the presentation that Wajdi Akhadi made.

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For those of you who have not been listening to this or have not heard this before, this is a video released by Mr.

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Akhadi called Quoting Jesus. It is a video that he specifically would like to be used to call people to faith.

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This is his act of dawah, you might say, calling people to believe in Islam.

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And we are 39 minutes and 25 seconds into it.

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It is approximately an hour and 10 minutes. So there is about half an hour left of it, I would say approximately.

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And this will be the fourth section, the fourth time that we have been delving into this.

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We have gotten into the section on the Trinity. The last time that we were listening,

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Mr. Akhadi had just raised the question of Jesus' statement about the last hour.

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And I had responded as I have been attempting to do this. I have been directly addressing

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Mr. Akhadi. And I know that in correspondence with him that actually he had missed one of them.

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I sent all the links to the programs we have done so far. And I would like to thank him because I do believe that he will take the time and the effort to listen to all of my comments.

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And I hope that he will listen to them more than once. It would be difficult,

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I would imagine, for him to respond meaningfully to certain sections of what

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I am saying without listening very carefully to them. And I have listened to his presentation multiple times.

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And so I want to thank him for taking the time to do that and apologize it is taking me so long to get through it.

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But I also hope that on one level he is thankful that I have posted his video on my blog.

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And if he provides a response, I will post it too. We are people of the truth. We believe in Al Haqq.

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And we believe in him who is Al Haqq, the truth, the way, the truth, and the life, in fact.

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And we do not believe that Jesus' statements about that in the Gospel of John are limited to the

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Jews or limited to a particular period of time. We believe that Jesus' statement there remains just as true today as when

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Jesus said those words. And so with that, we go back again.

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I had begun, if I recall correctly, I had begun responding to that particular text by asking

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Mr. Akri some questions. And had pointed out that there were certain aspects of Jesus' divine power that were voluntarily, for the purpose of the

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Incarnation, veiled. And, for example, his glory was not seen except but briefly by three of the apostles on the

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Mount of Transfiguration. And that there is a voluntary limitation on Jesus' part so that he might be our example in all things.

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He made himself dependent upon the Holy Spirit so that he might be our example as we, likewise, must be dependent upon the

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Holy Spirit of God. And so I think it's important to keep those things in mind.

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And that's where we had stopped in our response, Mr. Akri. We now pick up where we left off.

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How can Jesus be co -equal with God, part of the triune Godhead, and not know the

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Day of Judgment? But that is consistent with the fact that we believe no one knows the Day of Judgment but Allah عز و جل.

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Not even the malaika, not even the angels, not even the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم. No one knows the

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Day of Judgment but Allah. Consistency, subhanAllah, consistency in the teachings. Now there's an argument which may be presented by our fellow

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Christians. They say there's a statement in the Bible which says, I and my

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Father are one. Now, I just realized,

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I keep intending to do these things but it's difficult to, you know, multitask a whole lot while trying to listen to what

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Mr. Akri is saying and look up references and everything else. But I wanted to, and I'm going to try to remember.

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Maybe somebody in channel can remind me after the program to write to Mr.

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Akri and see if my book on the Trinity has arrived at his location as of yet.

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Because we did send it out. And I'm not sure that we can even track international stuff, we really can't.

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So, I will ask Mr. Akri, because we did send it, if the book has arrived there in Saudi Arabia.

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But there are a number of texts, Mr. Akri, that I think it would behoove you to attempt to respond to in the

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New Testament that far more than those that you raise.

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Far, far more than those that you raise. And especially those that specifically identify

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Jesus as God. I would love to hear your explanation of how it is that all of the earliest followers of Jesus that we have any knowledge about, believed in Jesus Christ as Kurios, as Lord, the very name used in the

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Greek Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, of Yahweh himself. And that those early writers, such as Peter and Paul, and the writer to the

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Hebrews, could quote Old Testament texts. John, the very same gospel that is cited by Muslims all the time to attempt to fulfill

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Surah 61 and Surah 7, especially Surah 61, 6.

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Concerning Jesus giving good tidings of a messenger who would come after him, whose name is

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Ahmed. The fulfillment being found allegedly in John chapters 14 and 16.

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That same writer, likewise, use Old Testament texts that were about Yahweh and apply them to Jesus.

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How could they do that? I mean, that would be like someone taking texts, to give an example that you might find more compelling, taking texts that are about Allah in the

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Quran and applying them to a messenger. So, in fact, this is an illustration

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I never thought of until just now. Sometimes it's dangerous to think like that on the fly, especially with as many antihistamines and cough medicines as I have going with me.

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But think of it along these lines. You have a particular

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Surah in the Quran, Surah Al -Ikhlas, Surah 112. And it is a text that is dear to the heart of many

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Muslims, as you know, according to the Hadith. Quoting this particular Surah is like quoting, what was it, one -third, one -half, one -third of the

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Quran. Muhammad thought very highly of it, according to the Hadith. And it's about as close as you get to a creedal statement in the

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Quran itself. And so, with that in mind, what if you had a writer?

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Take the, let's say the first two ayah of Surah Al -Ikhlas and apply them specifically to a messenger who has come later.

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What would that tell you about the person making that application? You know what Surah Al -Ikhlas is about.

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And you know that it can only be true of Allah, right? And so if someone applies that to a messenger, then what are they telling you?

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That they believe that messenger truly was Allah. And in fact, as I'm sure you're aware, there were some

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Sufi people who made statements. They got themselves in great trouble.

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In fact, if I recall, one executed for doing something similar to that. And the point is, that's exactly what you have, for example, in Hebrews chapter 1, verses 10 -12, where a verse that could only be applied to Yahweh, Psalm 102, 25 -27, is applied to Jesus.

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What does that tell you? That the first followers of Jesus believed.

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They believed He was Yahweh in human flesh. And so, we'll look at the text that you're bringing up.

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I do believe that John chapter 10, verse 30, does present the deity of Christ. I would direct you,

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Mr. Akhadi, to a video, and I will try as best I can to remember to link you to this video.

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A fairly short video, actually, where I discuss the proper use of John chapter 10, verse 30, and its testimony to the deity of Christ.

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And, of course, you'll find similar comments in the Forgotten Trinity, if the book has arrived, or when it arrives.

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Hopefully, Lord willing, it will arrive, there in Saudi Arabia. Have you heard this before?

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Let me give you the explanation for this one. You must know the context. Whenever you read something, you must know what verses preceded it, and what verses will follow it.

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Because they will have something to do with the general meaning. In Islam, we can give the same example.

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Can you read, فَوَيْلُ لِلْمُصَلِّينَ and stop? No. فَوَيْلُ لِلْمُصَلِّينَ أَلَّذِينَ هُمْ عَن صَلَاتِهِمْ سَهُونَ

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If you read it on its own, woe to those who pray. But in fact, it's about those who are negligent about prayer.

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So the context is important. Now, let me give you the context of this one. It's in John chapter 10 verse 30.

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Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the sheep, the believers which Allah gave him.

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He said that he will strive to keep the sheep, the believers which Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala gave him.

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Then he said that no one will be able to pluck them out of his hand.

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Now, let me just briefly stop right there and point out that that's not all that Jesus was saying.

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It is true that he was saying he will keep his sheep. But verse 28 says,

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And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

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My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the

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Father, we are one. And so, it's not merely keeping sheep.

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There is in this text the assertion on Jesus' part that he has the ability to give eternal life.

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And that needs to be kept in mind as to what it is about these words.

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Because remember, context comes before and after. And the after context, as soon as Jesus said,

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I and the Father, we are one, the Jews picked up stones again to stone him. And so, there is something about what

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Jesus said that caused the Jews to understand this as a statement of blasphemy.

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And that needs to be kept in mind. And no one will be able to pluck them out of the hand of Allah, of the

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Father. I and my Father are one. Now, notice the implicit assertion there of Unitarianism.

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And I need to challenge Mr. Akri on this point. He has just stated, no one can take them out of Allah's hand.

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I would point out that to make that assertion and to identify

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Allah solely as the Father is one of the main problems that you are going to have.

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If you would say that Allah is

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Yahweh, the personal name used of the

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Old Testament God, who Abraham worshipped. If you would say that, then you need to keep in mind that the

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Bible identifies the Father as Yahweh, the Son as Yahweh, and the

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Spirit as the Spirit of Yahweh. So, when you use that terminology and just assume that Allah is only the

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Father, you are assuming the end of the argument. You are assuming what you have yet to prove. And you are going against the biblical evidence to do that.

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And that leads to inevitable problems. In purpose, the same way

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I strive as a messenger, he strives that the people who follow him do not leave

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Islam. Allah also ensures that the believers don't leave Islam. وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيضَيَّعَ إِيمَانَكُمْ

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Yeah, but that's not what Jesus is talking about. It's not talking about leaving

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Islam. It's talking about Jesus giving life to his sheep in contrast to the unbelieving

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Jews. And the sheep, in this immediate context, would, of course, be

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Jewish as well, in the sense of the apostles and those who believed in Jesus at this point. So, it's not a

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Jew, Christian, etc., etc. issue. It is believers over against unbelievers.

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It has nothing to do with Islam. That's an anachronistic reading back into the text of something that there's no historical evidence would be true at the time.

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And the fact that Jesus gives eternal life to them.

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This is a salvation issue. And what it means is Jesus is the source of eternal life to those who believe in him.

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And there is nothing in the Bible that could ever lead me to believe that some revelation that comes 600 years later could countermand the very statements of Jesus himself on that issue.

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Allah is never to waste your Iman as it comes in Surah Al -Baqarah. So, the same way

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Allah ensures that you remain in faith if you strive. And the Messenger, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, would strive.

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You know, Wajdi, that's a big difference between us. I do not remain in faith because I strive.

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I remain in faith because of what Jesus Christ did. I strive.

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I seek to live to God's glory. I seek to mortify my flesh.

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I seek to repent of my sins. And I am a sinful man. And I experience sin.

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And the Christian life is a life of repentance. But, I do all of that only because of what

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Jesus Christ has already accomplished for me. And so, the ongoing nature of my faith is not based upon my striving.

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It is based upon the fact that Jesus Christ accomplished all that needed to be accomplished on my behalf.

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And He, by His Spirit, has brought spiritual life to me. So that I might continue to serve

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Him. And I will continue to strive. And I will continue to persevere in the faith.

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But only because of what Jesus Christ has done. Not because of anything in me. And that, I think, is a major point of difference between us.

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You strive that you remain in faith. The purpose are one. Can't you see? If my boss sent me to you.

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And he told me to tell you something. And I conveyed it to you. I say to you, look. You say, no,

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I don't believe you. Say, look. I and the manager are one. We have the same goal, man.

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To bring this business up. Our purpose is the same. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

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Now you want it, it gets better. Look at the further explanation. This is a logical explanation.

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Look at the ayah, the verse in the Bible. Jesus said, I do not pray for these alone.

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But also for those who will believe in me through their word. That they also may be one in us.

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Now, for the audience's benefit here. Mr. Akhavi has leapt seven chapters into the future.

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And has left John chapter 10. What this indicates to me, most probably.

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Is utilization of secondary sources. Because there are a lot of websites out there.

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Especially Unitarian subordinationist websites. Jehovah's Witnesses, other people like that.

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Who, in attempting to deal with John chapter 10 verse 30. And the oneness of the

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Father and the Son. Will leave the immediate context of John chapter 10.

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And will go to Jesus' high priestly prayer in John chapter 17. And will say, well notice.

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All believers are one. In the Father and the Son. That doesn't mean they're all one God. Well, a couple things.

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Mr. Akhavi had already said. We need to look at context. But John chapter 17 is not the context of John chapter 10.

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I mean, it's important. I'm not trying to avoid it. But it's not the same context.

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It's not the same incident. It's not the same time frame. It is important in the sense of an overall understanding.

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Of what the gospel of John says about the oneness of the Father and the

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Son. I will agree to all those things. But you need to realize and need to understand.

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That the immediate context that you just skipped. That demonstrates that your understanding of John 10 verse 30 is insufficient.

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And a contextual is the very next verse. The Jewish reaction to what

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Jesus said. And his response and his quotation of Psalm 82 .6. And his identification of his accusers as false judges.

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And those things. And the consistency of his works with the works of the Father. And their testimony to his identity.

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And all those things. So to skip to John 17. Well, even then.

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To go to John chapter 17. Before you can quote verse 11.

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That they may be one even as we are one. The verses before that include the statement on Jesus' part.

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That to have life you must know the Father and the Son. And Jesus says in John chapter 17.

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Verse 5. And if you're going to quote verse 11. I assume you believe verse 5 is valid as well.

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And now Father glorify me together with yourself. With the glory which I had with you before the world was.

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So can you. Do you believe Jesus' words in John 17 .5. Do you believe that he existed in eternity past.

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That he was glorious in the presence of the Father. I don't believe that that is

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Islamic theology. And so can you explain John 17 .5. And if you're going to say.

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Well John 17 .5 is a later corruption. But the verse I'm quoting isn't.

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Then can you show us a manuscript that substantiates that. What if I went to the

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Quran. And started chopping up the Quran into pieces. And said well I. Let's go back to Surah Al -Ikhlas.

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If you just took Surah Al -Ikhlas. Ayahs 1, 2 and 4. I'd have no problem.

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With what's in Ayahs 1, 2 and 4. It's Surah 112, 3.

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That I have a problem with. Right. So can I just chop that up.

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Or if I were to say well. You know I don't think that was original. I don't think that's.

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The third ayah was actually written originally. Wouldn't you be well within your rights to say.

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Do you have any evidence of that. And so. If you're going to say.

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Well that was a corruption. And additions like that. Then I would say you need to have some evidence of that.

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And. Given that the Gospel of John. I think even you know

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I can't tell. I don't know for what Dan Wallace said. Whether there are any manuscripts of John.

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In these new findings. At least as it stands right now before the publication of these new findings.

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The Gospel of John is the earliest and most widely attested. Of the four gospels.

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In the papyri. And so you're talking about the earliest and best attested book of the

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New Testament. Happens to be the Gospel of John. So. I just think.

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That that's a. A fair request on my part. That if you're going to say that.

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You know. One is corrupted. Maybe you don't say that. I didn't say that specifically at this point.

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But I'm just simply saying if you're going to quote. From John chapter 17. Then you need to look at. By your own statement.

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At the context of who's speaking. And the one who is speaking has said he is eternally existed in the presence of the father.

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No one then could read the rest of John chapter 17. And think that the oneness. That we have.

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With the father and the son. Is of the same nature as the oneness of the father and the son.

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Because we have not eternally been. We have not eternally existed. So obviously the unity we have with them.

36:21

Is because of our union with Christ. But it'll always be of a different kind. Then the unity that exists between the father and the son.

36:29

Because theirs is eternal. And we are not eternal. We have not existed.

36:35

For eternity. That's something that has to be kept in mind. Now according to this.

36:41

If we were to understand I and my father are one. Then we were to read may be one in us. Meaning now the disciples and everyone are also in God.

36:49

So now Jesus, God and everyone else are one entity. Not. That does not follow.

36:56

Because the oneness of the father and the son. A is eternal. And our oneness is not eternal in that way.

37:05

And B as I point out in the video. That again

37:10

I will attempt to remind. To send you the link to. The verb in John chapter 10 verse 30.

37:19

Is a plural verb. Esmen. And hence does not make one entity.

37:27

There is one being that is God. That is shared by three divine persons. The father, son and the Holy Spirit.

37:33

And that is not what is in view. In John chapter 17. In talking about our unity.

37:39

With the father and the son. But it is what is in view. When you start talking about an eternal relationship.

37:46

Between the father and the son. It cannot be. You see. That they also may be one in us.

37:54

That the world may believe that you sent me. So then Jesus is not speaking about them being one.

38:00

They are being one in purpose. The message is the same. The disciples of Jesus. Jesus himself. And the creator of Jesus.

38:06

And the disciples. All of them have one objective. Now of course the phrase creator of Jesus.

38:12

Is not found in the text. That is being read into the text. The maintenance of the belief. Of those who follow the prophets and the messengers.

38:21

Okay. Logical evidence. This by the way. This argument.

38:27

The only one which is not of mine. Is from a Christian himself. Arius. That would be a little bit.

38:35

Honestly. Like. Quoting a well -known.

38:45

Well I guess. It is not perfectly parallel. But if I were to quote a well -known.

38:54

Shiite Imam. From 200 years after Hijri.

39:02

And say to quote a well -known Muslim. Against you. You would not.

39:09

Find that to be an overly compelling argument. And. Certainly.

39:15

Mr. Akhavi. Once you get an opportunity. And I hope and pray you will take the opportunity.

39:23

To at least. Read through the book. And see. The wide range.

39:30

And depth of biblical evidence. For the deity of Christ. The text identifying him as Yahweh.

39:38

Especially. Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12. And John chapter 12 verse 41. And in fact.

39:45

If you wanted more information than that. On those texts just a few months ago. Here on the program.

39:52

On my blog. I link to this where I did a debate with a Unitarian. On these issues. And then on the program.

39:58

I went into. Great depth. In a discussion.

40:03

Of those texts. And the I am sayings of Jesus. And. And so on so forth. Here on the program. We spent.

40:09

Literally hours. On that on that topic. Once you. Have an opportunity to see that.

40:17

Then I think that it would. It would. Strike you. That. There's much more.

40:24

To be looked at here. And that since there's such a wide variety of evidence.

40:30

In the Bible. That you haven't dealt with. Or I don't see any evidence. That you're familiar with.

40:37

Or that has been presented to you in the past. That it would impact. Your reading of the text of the

40:44

Bible. If you're operating on the faulty assumption. That there's just a verse over here.

40:50

And there's just a verse over there. And everything else is consistent with the Quran. Well then I can understand how you come to conclusions.

40:56

That you've come to. But I just don't think you could actually read. The entirety of the text of the

41:01

New Testament. And come to those types of conclusions at all. The Egyptian from Alexandria.

41:07

He said. I'm sorry. And hence. Look at someone like an Arius. Who said there was a time when the sun was not.

41:17

And. View the man as a Christian. Any more than you would view.

41:23

People who would question the prophethood of Muhammad. Or. The centrality of the

41:29

Quran. Or all the rest of these things. As being Christians. I mean it's definitional. To.

41:37

Accept. What the Bible says about Jesus Christ. Our great God and Savior. And so to identify

41:44

Arius as a Christian. Would be the same thing as identifying Muhammad as a Christian.

41:49

I mean it just. It's definitionally. Outside. Rationality to to go that direction.

41:57

I realize the historical sources. Historians don't want to get into theology. And so as long as somebody called themselves a

42:04

Christian. Well then they are. But you of all people. I would think.

42:09

Given the tradition of Islam from which you come. You know that there are people who call themselves

42:15

Muslims. Who are not. And so if you recognize that reality. Then you must recognize that there are people who call themselves

42:22

Christians. Who fundamentally are not either. He said. If Jesus was in reality the begotten son of God.

42:29

Then it followed that the father must have existed before him. The son. Can the son come before the father? It's always the father who brings gives birth to the son.

42:39

And notice that we have here. The definition of begotten. Taking place in time.

42:46

And Mr. If you will read the refutations of areas. By especially his contemporary.

42:56

A man by name Athanasius. Who became. Three years after the Council of Nicaea.

43:02

The Bishop of Alexandria. A man who suffered for his faith. He was kicked out of his church five times.

43:09

For his defense of the deity of Christ. But a man who. Very firmly rooted.

43:15

His defense. Of the deity of Christ. In the scriptures themselves. And then others that came after him.

43:24

You will see. Hillary like Hillary of Portier. People like that. You will see.

43:30

That they ground. Their refutation of areas. In pointing out areas is error in thinking.

43:38

That the sun was begotten at a point in time. And hence. Applying the human temporal standard.

43:48

Of father and son. And creation and begettal in that sense. To the biblical terms.

43:57

That are meant to be taken. In the sense of eternity. And hence our relationship terms.

44:03

And not temporal terms. That would mean that there was a time when the sun was not. Therefore there must have been time.

44:12

Where the sun Jesus did not exist. Because the father must come. Before the sun.

44:18

In contradiction to John's own statement. In John 1 1. When he said the

44:23

Logos was as to his nature deity. And that the Logos had eternally been in relationship with the father.

44:29

Utilizing a very form of the Greek verb. That does not point to a point of origin. In John 1 1.

44:35

He uses the imperfect form of I me there. He does not use the aorist form. And. Given that that is the very introduction.

44:43

To the book that speaks the most. Of the relationship of the father and the son. I would suggest to you. That that should be sufficient.

44:50

To allow you to. Not use this kind of argumentation. Since God is in essence eternal.

44:57

And ever existing. Jesus could not be of the same essence of God. Because the son.

45:03

Must come after the father. The father is eternal. Eternal.

45:09

Ever living. So how can the son who had to come later on. Be eternal ever living. If he had to come.

45:15

Logically it does not make any sense. Logically. If the relation is an eternal one.

45:22

You are assuming that it is not. You are assuming that it is a creative relationship. You are assuming that it is a relationship that comes into time.

45:29

Which means you have to. Take part of the Bible. And then reject another part of the Bible. And just as you would.

45:37

Loathe to allow us. To do that to the Qur 'an. We would loathe to allow you to do that to the Bible. I think you need to keep that in mind.

45:45

Now this caused a lot of fitna by the way. In the fourth century among the Christians. Ares brought this idea.

45:50

And it caused a lot of havoc among the people. Because he was presenting ideas. Which were not very welcome.

45:55

Because already trinity or the trinitarian belief. Had already been widely spread.

46:01

Among the Christians. Now I find that interesting. That you make that statement.

46:07

Because there are. So many Muslims. Who believe that.

46:13

The doctrine of trinity was invented. At the council of Nicaea. And some.

46:19

Even at times after that. And as a result.

46:26

At least what you are saying right now. Is that those

46:31

Muslims. Are in error. The problem will come. When you seek to.

46:38

Go beyond that. And to identify the actual origin. Of the doctrine of trinity.

46:44

Which is found in the Bible. While the term trinity. Is not found in the

46:49

Bible. Of course. The reason we believe. And of course the book lays this out.

46:55

But I will just summarize for you. The reason we believe in the doctrine of trinity. Is because we believe in all of the Bible.

47:01

We believe the Bible teaches. There is one true God. We believe the Bible teaches. That there are three divine persons.

47:07

Who are distinguished from one another. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And we believe the Bible teaches the equality.

47:12

Not the sameness. The Bible clearly differentiates. Between the Father, the Son and the Spirit. The Father, the

47:18

Son and the Spirit take different roles. In the economy of salvation. But. The Bible also very clearly.

47:25

Indicates to us. That the Spirit. And the Son. Very clearly.

47:33

Are deity. And various ways in which this is proven. As the book will show you.

47:39

In an opportunity to look at it. And so. It's important to recognize that.

47:45

While there was development. In the understanding of the doctrine. As the church faced various criticisms.

47:51

And questions about it. The source to which. They turned. For their belief in the doctrine.

47:59

Was divine revelation. They went to what the scriptures say. And I have often described myself.

48:05

As a biblical Trinitarian. I believe what I believe. Because I believe the Bible. And I believe all of the

48:11

Bible. Let me give you a brief history of the Trinity. First let me quote some.

48:16

Biblical verses from the Old Testament. For thus says the Lord who created the heavens. Who is God. Who formed the earth and made it.

48:23

Who has established it. Who did not create it in vain. Who formed it to be inhabited. I am the

48:29

Lord and there is no other. This is how it began. With la ilaha illallah.

48:35

In Isaiah chapter 45. Now. As Mr.

48:41

Akhari goes through these texts. Those of you. Who have. Studied Mormonism.

48:47

Who have maybe ever been active with us. In passing out tracts to Mormons. Things like that. We'll hear a number of texts that we.

48:55

Memorize and that we utilize. In defending Christianity against Mormonism.

49:00

Because Mormonism of course. Believes there are many gods. And we believe there is only one true God. And every biblical

49:07

Trinitarian. Will agree. With every text from Isaiah. We would not agree.

49:14

That. What is being said. By Isaiah. In Isaiah 43 .10 or 44 .6

49:20

and 8. 45 .5 to 7. 44 .24 where Yahweh alone.

49:26

Stretches out the heavens. Creates the earth. That that's the same as la ilaha illallah. That's not the shahada.

49:34

Why? Because Mr. Akhari. Is making a direct equation. Between Allah and the father.

49:43

And. The rest of the Bible shows us. That that name Yahweh. Who is being discussed there.

49:49

In Isaiah. That name Yahweh has a wider application. It's to the being of God. But Mr.

49:56

Akhari is going to. Limit that to one person. Given that the New Testament identifies. Jesus as Yahweh as well.

50:02

That undercuts. That identification. And that's another reason why.

50:09

When Muslims say. Oh we all believe in one God. Well. I know what they're saying.

50:15

But to accept that statement. Is to deny what the Bible itself says. Because Yahweh.

50:22

Is not Unitarian. Yahweh is Trinitarian. So first there was one

50:27

God. The creator alone without any partners. Okay. But things didn't remain the same for a long time.

50:33

Another ayah which supports this. Is but now. Thus says the Lord who created you.

50:39

Oh Jacob and he who formed you. Oh Israel. Before me there was no God formed.

50:45

Nor shall there be after me. I even I am the Lord. And besides me there is no savior.

50:51

Subhanallah. Now I just. I appreciate. I appreciate your statement there.

50:59

Wajdi. But I want to point. Something out to you.

51:05

Isaiah 43 10. Which you just quoted. Is one of my favorite texts.

51:10

In all scripture. It's an awesome text. And the way you quoted it.

51:16

You seem to agree. With exactly what it says. But let me point something out to you.

51:22

You are my witnesses. Declares Yahweh. And my servant whom I have chosen. That you may know and believe me. And understand that I am he.

51:28

Before me no God was formed. Nor shall there be any after me. The very words that Jesus uses.

51:36

That you may. I'm sorry. That Isaiah uses. That you may know and believe me. And understand that I am he. Jesus quotes of himself.

51:46

In John chapter 13 verse 19. Now. Mr.

51:52

Aqabi. Would you and I both agree. That Jesus. Knew the

51:58

Old Testament. I mean certainly. Who you believe is virgin born. And worked miracles.

52:07

You would think that this messenger of Allah. Knew. The scriptures of Allah.

52:12

Right I mean. You're quoting from Isaiah. And I would argue sir.

52:20

That. There is no reason. To believe. That Muhammad.

52:27

Knew enough about the content. Of what we call the Old Testament. Or the Jews call the Tanakh. To differentiate between.

52:36

The various books. And. If this was in fact sent down by God.

52:43

And Jesus quoted. Of himself. What are you going to do with that? What are you going to do.

52:52

With Jesus's willingness. To identify himself. As Yahweh.

52:59

I think it's vitally important. That you are aware. Of these things. I don't have any reason to believe.

53:06

That you are aware of these things. But in making you aware of these things. My hope is that you will then.

53:12

Give consideration. To what it means. No God came before the creator. No one will come after him.

53:18

There is no savior but him. Clear. But that didn't last. Between 150 and 318.

53:26

After Christ. The Greek philosophy. Particularly also the Babylonian.

53:31

Philosophy was introduced. Babylonian. Philosophy. Introduced to.

53:39

What? Introduced to whom? It's easy to make this.

53:47

Type of assertion. But what do you mean Babylonian philosophy? Babylon had fallen.

53:54

Greek philosophy is not the same as Babylonian philosophy. The church definitely.

54:00

Utilizes. Greek philosophical terminology. To respond to Greek philosophical questions.

54:07

I mean the gospel. Has now gone into the Greek world. Paul stands upon Mars Hill. He did not.

54:14

He did not avoid. Engaging the philosophers. So. It's not surprising.

54:22

Whatsoever that Christians attempt. To answer questions in the language. That has been used.

54:28

To ask the questions. But Babylonian philosophy. Greek philosophy. There needs to be some real specificity.

54:37

What do you mean? Neoplatonism. What elements of it? I mean.

54:42

There's a lot of Greek philosophy. And a lot of Islamic teaching today. Primarily from Aristotle.

54:49

You may not be aware of it. But it's there. Does that make Islamic teaching wrong? Or. Can.

54:57

Does truth need to be expressed. In the language people understand it? We have to be very careful on these lines.

55:05

As a result. Arguments and discussions concerning. These new philosophies on the nature of the son

55:11

Jesus. In relationship to the father. Sprouted. And the year 325.

55:17

In the council of Nicaea. Resulted in the first. Uniform Christian doctrine.

55:22

Called the Nicene Creed. The council declared. That the father and son.

55:28

Are of the same substance. And co -eternal. So in the year what? 325 years after Jesus.

55:35

Now the idea of including Jesus with God. Started sprouting. And having some popularity.

55:43

Ok. Wait a minute. Now before. Mr. Akri. You said that the

55:49

Trinitarian doctrine. Was already popular. At the time of Arius.

55:55

And Arius was. Becoming popular. A number of years before the council of Nicaea.

56:01

Now it sounds like you're saying. You're saying. Something different. The reality is.

56:08

That you can go. Way way way back. Mr. Akri.

56:14

To find. Clear testimony. Of the deity of Christ.

56:22

Long before. The time of the council of Nicaea. And I'll. I'll close this.

56:28

This section. With just a few. Examples of this.

56:34

But. For example Ignatius. In writing to. Ignatius was a.

56:42

A Christian. Who gave his life. As a martyr. In.

56:50

Somewhere around. 107 to 108 AD. So you're talking.

56:56

200 years. 200 years. Prior. To the council of Nicaea.

57:04

Ignatius who is also called Theophorus. To her who has been blessed in greatness. To the fullness of God the Father. Ordained before time to be always resulting in permanent glory.

57:12

Unchangeably united and chosen in true passion. By the will of the Father. And of Jesus Christ our

57:17

God. To the church which is in Ephesus of Asia. Worthy of felicitation. Abundant greetings in Jesus Christ.

57:23

And in blameless joy. That's the beginning of his. Epistle to. The Ephesians.

57:30

And later in that same epistle he said. My spirit is but an off scouring of the cross. Which is a scandal to the unbelieving.

57:35

But to us it is salvation and life eternal. Where is the wise man? Where is the disputer? Where is the boasting of those who are called understanding?

57:43

For our God Jesus the Christ. Was conceived by Mary according to a dispensation of God. From the seed of David yes.

57:49

But of the Holy Spirit as well. Notice. Here this is Ephesians 18.

57:56

That he's called. The Messiah. He's called God. He's conceived by Mary of the seed of David.

58:02

But of the Holy Spirit as well. You have God being talked about. You have Jesus being called

58:07

God. And you have the Holy Spirit being involved. And this is 200 years prior to Nicaea.

58:14

When Ignatius wrote to the Romans. He said for our God Jesus Christ. Being in the Father is more plainly seen.

58:19

The work is not of persuasiveness. But Christianity is a thing of might. Whenever it is hated by the world.

58:26

When he wrote to Polycarp. He said await the one who is above every season. The eternal. The invisible. The one who for our sake became visible.

58:32

The untouched. The impassable. Who for our sake suffered. Who endured in every way for our sake.

58:38

And one of my favorites is in his letter to the Ephesians. I'll close with this. There is one physician of flesh and of spirit.

58:45

Generate and ingenerate. God and man. True life and death. Both from Mary and from God. First passable and then impassable.

58:52

Jesus Christ our Lord. That is the highest level of Christology.

59:01

The highest level of Christological thinking. And it's in the first generation.

59:10

After the time of the Apostles. That is absolutely incredible.

59:19

And so the idea that this developed. Down the road at the Council of Nicaea. Simply ignores the reality.

59:29

Of the historical evidence itself. And there is much more that I could give you.

59:35

But I would just again. Direct you to the information.

59:41

In the forgotten trinity. That would demonstrate that this is not in fact. Some lie. There was some later development.

59:48

Yes there was development. In the sense of the. Clarification of questions.

59:54

Utilization of terminology. There was a lot of. There was a lot of difficulty.

01:00:00

That arose from the fact. That you had two main languages. Being spoken in the church.

01:00:06

By the beginning of the fourth century. The Eastern churches. Were continuing to speak

01:00:11

Greek. The Western churches were primarily speaking Latin. And some of the questions.

01:00:17

Consumption and substance. And the relationships between them. Were due to difficulties in the translation.

01:00:22

Of those languages. And the fact that especially the Eastern church. Had already had to deal with.

01:00:28

One particular heresy. Which is called Sabellianism or Modalism. That was the first heresy.

01:00:34

They dealt with. Was not a denial of who Jesus was. But a confusion of Jesus and the

01:00:40

Father. And certain people. In the Eastern church. Were especially concerned.

01:00:48

About the use of the term. Homoousius. At the Council of Nicaea.

01:00:54

Because they felt it would give further ammunition. To the Sabellians. Who they were still struggling with.

01:01:01

And so there's a lot to the history here. And I would. I'll try.

01:01:07

Again to remember. If I go right into my computer. And do it right after the program. Maybe I'll remember to do these things.

01:01:12

But I'll try also to link you to. A link to the. Extensive.

01:01:18

Extensively long dividing line we did. Where I went over the Council of Nicaea. The Council of Chalcedon. The Nicene Creed.

01:01:24

The Chalcedonian Creed. The Athanasian Creed. And basically gave a class.

01:01:29

On the subject of Christology. Which would give you much more information.

01:01:35

Along those lines as well. So looking at. My information here.

01:01:40

We are now 46 minutes. Into. Quoting Jesus.

01:01:46

Which means we still have at least one. Full program to go. But we're going to take a break.

01:01:53

During which I will. Cough up a lung. And then start taking your phone calls. At 877 -753 -3341.

01:02:01

877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

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01:05:03

Welcome back to The Dividing Line. We finally got to use our bumper music there again. So. I don't know what happened to it at the start.

01:05:11

I'm still talking and all of a sudden. Rich starts talking. About well. It was a recording of something

01:05:17

Rich said about 15 years ago. Well you saw the look on my face when I told it to go. And it just kind of sat there.

01:05:23

And sat there. It was like the hamster on the wheel. But the wheel was stuck.

01:05:28

Yes. That's how the phone system is today too. It's disconnected me six times so far.

01:05:34

It just doesn't even want to. It's feeling about as well as I am I guess. I don't know. 877 -753 -3341.

01:05:42

Is the phone number. Open phones the last half hour. I guess this is sort of your shot.

01:05:49

Because. I will not be able to talk as fast. As I normally can. But if you've.

01:05:56

Had some things you'd like to comment on. I realize of course. That the topic of the preceding hour.

01:06:03

Is not the kind of thing that. Gets a lot of folks calling in. But. There's a lot of stuff going on.

01:06:11

There's a lot of stuff on. Gay marriage and. Homosexuality and.

01:06:17

Abortion and. The fact. It's just simple governmental.

01:06:23

Intrusion into the church. And what that means about. Cooperation between Protestants.

01:06:29

And Roman Catholics and. All that stuff. There's a lot of stuff going on.

01:06:35

And so we'll be. Happy to do that. Actually right now so far it's still working.

01:06:41

So I think I can go ahead. And bring up Tom. Hi Tom how you doing? Hey Dr.

01:06:46

White doing well. How's yourself? Well how do I sound to you? We'll pass on that one.

01:06:53

Okay. Well I've got a question for you. About really about consistency.

01:06:58

And apologetic methodology. I was actually having a dialogue. With a Jewish gentleman recently.

01:07:04

And he ended up pulling. A lot of the same arguments out. That I've heard you make. Against Islam before.

01:07:11

And an example of that would be. Talking about how our books. As in the New Testament.

01:07:17

Comes after their books. The Old Testament. The Hebrew Scriptures. And then basically saying from there.

01:07:24

That well your books contradict our books. So maybe you should look at our books first. And take that into account.

01:07:31

Maybe your books aren't so hot after all. So basically. I guess my question is. How would you respond to this guy?

01:07:40

Well I'd hand him. A full set of Michael Brown's books. Answering Jewish objections.

01:07:46

But obviously. You know. That thought crosses my mind very often.

01:07:52

When I point that out. And then in fact just this weekend. I had the privilege of lecturing up at.

01:07:59

Central Baptist Theological Seminary. In Plymouth. Minnesota.

01:08:05

Which is a suburb of Minneapolis. And I. Specifically raised.

01:08:11

This as an issue. In the sense that. There is such a. Fundamentally different.

01:08:18

Type of relationship. Between the Quran. And the

01:08:23

Old and New Testaments. That exist between. The New Testament and the Old Testament. In other words. When you look at.

01:08:30

How the New Testament. Approaches. Let's put it this way.

01:08:38

How the Christian Scriptures. Approach the Tanakh. What is.

01:08:43

What is found. In the. Christian Scriptures about the Tanakh.

01:08:48

What you have. Not only a. Thoroughgoing affirmation.

01:08:54

Of the divine nature. Of the. Jewish Scriptures. But you have an intimate.

01:09:02

Familiarity. On the part of the writers. Who themselves recognize. That for their community.

01:09:10

Those Scriptures. Remain the living voice of God. I mean all through the

01:09:15

Gospels. Has it not been written. Is it not written. Has not God said. You can't.

01:09:22

If you pulled. The Old Testament quotations. And citations.

01:09:29

Out of the book of Hebrews. You wouldn't have anything left. Okay. So. What you have.

01:09:37

Is a. Now. Now what your Jewish friend is saying is. Yeah but we don't interpret them.

01:09:46

In that way today. That's not the same thing. As saying. That the

01:09:52

New Testament writers. Were trying to change. Pervert. Overthrow.

01:09:59

Supplant. Those writings. In any way shape or form.

01:10:04

Now compare that. With what you can't even begin. To compare that. With what you have.

01:10:12

In the relationship. Of the Quran. To either. The Torah or the

01:10:19

Injil now. We can't even tell. Almost anything.

01:10:26

About the familiarity. Of the writer of the Quran. With the contents of either one.

01:10:32

Because as far as I can see. There is exactly. One. Biblical citation.

01:10:39

One. In the entirety of the Quran. And it's the Lex Talionis. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth.

01:10:45

And that does not require. I mentioned to the folks this weekend. I said I'll bet there's a bunch of people.

01:10:52

In this room. That could have. Quoted an eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth.

01:10:59

But I'll bet you. Almost. Except for the professors. Nobody. Would be able to tell me where it is.

01:11:06

Because you know it. Having heard it. But you don't know where it is. Contextually. It's not because you've read it.

01:11:13

It's because you've heard it used so often. And so. It seems to me.

01:11:19

That you could make a very strong argument. That the writer of the Quran. Familiarity with the content.

01:11:25

Of the Torah. The Psalms. And the New Testament.

01:11:31

Is nothing more than what. A young Bedouin. Boy. Would. Come up with.

01:11:40

Having gone on caravan into Syria. And sat around. Campfires at night.

01:11:45

And listen to Jews and Christians talking. And so there is a. Even though.

01:11:52

There is a theme. In the Quran. Where Muhammad attempts.

01:11:57

To substantiate his own prophet hood. By. Drawing the parallel.

01:12:06

From. Moses. Through Jesus to himself. It's found in Surah 5.

01:12:12

It's also found in Surah 7. And so this is clearly. Since it's found at different times.

01:12:18

In the life of Muhammad. And in the. Time period of the revelation of the

01:12:24

Quran. It's obviously something that was a part of his teaching. Even though that's there. What is amazing.

01:12:31

Is that Muhammad. Never. Takes the time.

01:12:36

To make himself a student. Of the books that his own. Revelation said were sent down by God.

01:12:44

So. There is a huge difference there. And in fact there is at least one hadith. Where Umar.

01:12:50

Who had become the. Second caliph. Umar brought the Torah.

01:12:56

Into the presence of Muhammad. And Muhammad. Asks him what is that.

01:13:02

And he says it's the Torah. And he began reading from it. And. The prophet's face.

01:13:09

Becomes red. And he. Abu Bakr.

01:13:15

Rebukes Umar. And. Then finally. When Muhammad calms down.

01:13:21

He speaks and says if. If Moses. Were to be alive today.

01:13:29

He would be a follower of me. In other words. You don't need that stuff. And so.

01:13:35

That has resulted sadly in a. In a tremendous amount of. Continued ignorance.

01:13:41

On the part of the followers of Muhammad. Of the very books. That their book says.

01:13:47

Contain light and guidance. And I think laid the seed bed for. The modern Islamic viewpoint.

01:13:53

And that being that there's really no reason to know that stuff. Because it's all been corrupted anyways. So. Going back to the apologetic methodology.

01:14:00

I don't think I'm at all being inconsistent. Because. My New Testament. Seeks to.

01:14:09

Draw directly from. I mean. When the writer of the Hebrews can quote.

01:14:15

Entire blocks of text. And say. This is what we're talking about. This is what we're fulfilling.

01:14:21

We stand in perfect harmony here. That is light years. From what the

01:14:27

Quran does. In its. Well. Fundamental ignorance. Of both the

01:14:34

Old and New Testaments. I would love to see. Where the Quran would attempt to interact.

01:14:40

With Philippians 2. 5 -11 or Colossians 1. 15 and following. Wouldn't that be useful? But there's nothing there.

01:14:47

And you look through the Hadith. And there is just. Abysmal ignorance. Of the

01:14:53

New Testament text. And. That's why. So much of our conversation.

01:14:59

With our Muslim friends. Can't go to that depth. Because those foundational documents.

01:15:05

Just show no familiarity with it at all. So I think I'm being consistent at that point. Want to follow up?

01:15:11

Yeah. Well I mean. That makes perfect sense for one thing. And I guess. Kind of like you mentioned. The fact that the schools of interpretation.

01:15:19

Between Christianity and modern Judaism. Or as it exists today. Kind of grew up side by side as well. Oh yeah.

01:15:26

And there's so many. I mean today. You look at the range of Jewish beliefs.

01:15:33

I mean there's Judaism. That is so far from having any meaningful belief. In the inspiration.

01:15:40

Of the Tanakh. That it's sad. I mean it really is. Evidently the person you're talking to.

01:15:48

Is more conservative in his views. And I don't mean the conservative group either. Because sometimes the names of Jews.

01:15:54

Doesn't even begin to identify. Where they actually are in the spectrum of things. But conservative in the sense.

01:16:00

Of actually believing. In the inspiration of the Old Testament. It seemed to be.

01:16:06

I couldn't get a finger on just exactly. Where he was coming from. But he opened the conversation with questions about.

01:16:12

The incarnation. Two natures in Christ. That kind of got us off. On that tangent in the first place.

01:16:19

Well that sounds like a good conversation. I would imagine you're familiar with Michael Brown's work. Yes sir absolutely.

01:16:25

In fact I have four of the five volumes. In good shape there. There you go. He gave me mine.

01:16:33

I'll let that one go too. Did you see the debate. That he and I did.

01:16:39

Side by side. Or between the two of you. I have that one. The one against Anthony Buzzard and Joe Good.

01:16:47

I've watched it probably four or five times now. Good good. Did they ever make available.

01:16:55

Straight through. Or did they cut it up. Because the way that I saw it. The way that something was sent to me on DVD.

01:17:02

It bounced all over the place. And there wasn't any flow to it. But there really was when we actually did it.

01:17:09

There seemed to be flow. In the DVD that I have. The way they showed it on TV. When it was actually broadcast on Jewish Voice.

01:17:16

Was kind of all over the board. It really went all over the place. There was much more of a flow to it. And I felt a consistency.

01:17:23

In how it actually happened. But hopefully what you could tell was. Mike and I work well together.

01:17:32

Oh man. We really do. And I look forward to the day. When he and I can do that again.

01:17:38

But I also look forward to the day. When we actually really tackle Reformed Theology too. So we'll see when that happens.

01:17:45

Well you know one of these days. Somebody needs to sponsor that back to back. See if we can get you guys somebody else. That would be fun.

01:17:50

And I think you would go for that too. So the next time I want to have Mike on. Is we're waiting for this book on Isaiah 53 to come out.

01:17:59

And it's now scheduled for a March release date. It was supposed to be way last fall. And there's some editing issue.

01:18:06

Michael has told me that there's some editing problem. That's slowing it down. But our plan is to have

01:18:12

Michael on. And he and I to just tackle the text of Isaiah 53. Straight from the Hebrew. Oh that would be great.

01:18:18

And that should be a whole lot of fun. So we still want to go there. Hey Tom thanks for listening. Thank you Dr. Whyte. Get better okay.

01:18:24

Alright thank you. God bless. Alright hey. It's been a long time. But our good friend

01:18:31

Pierre has called back in. Hi Pierre. Hello. How are you? I'm doing alright right now.

01:18:38

It's been a long time. What are you up to? I was calling because.

01:18:47

I wanted to discuss with you. Your response to.

01:18:53

I guess the young man you called. I called him Alma. But that was meant to be. A compliment.

01:19:00

But I think I saw what his name was later on. Was it Derek I think? I think it was

01:19:06

Derek. I could be wrong. But that was the name that was on the YouTube video. I looked at that also.

01:19:12

I don't remember exactly. Now are you going to rhyme your response Pierre? What do you mean by rhyme my response?

01:19:18

Oh no. I don't do that. You don't do that?

01:19:25

I was hoping for. Pierre's rhymed response. To my comments to Alma.

01:19:31

That would have been. So enjoyable. I'm sure. Go ahead.

01:19:40

Anyway. My. I guess my take on the matter.

01:19:46

Is that while I understand. Where you're coming from. And where you know. Christianity in general comes from.

01:19:53

And saying that we are not Christians. I would certainly not agree. Disagree. With the idea that we are not traditional.

01:20:00

Christian. However. I think that the issue.

01:20:06

That has Mormons. Confused. Is that. By that.

01:20:13

There is the idea. In Christianity in general.

01:20:18

We think. That you perceive us. As just simply not believing in Jesus Christ.

01:20:24

Period. No. And you try to emphasize. We have too much respect.

01:20:32

For Joseph Smith. No. Certainly I hope I've explained.

01:20:38

Over the years Pierre. That the fundamental issue. At least for those of us. Who have taken the time to study

01:20:44

Mormonism. I mean I can't speak for people. Who have never read the Book of Mormon. Doctrine and Covenants. Teachings of Robert Joseph Smith.

01:20:50

Etc. But for those of us who have. And spent all that time.

01:20:55

And talked with literally thousands of missionaries. And so on and so forth. Is while you talk about Jesus Christ.

01:21:03

The fundamental issue. Have you read letters to a Mormon elder by the way? I have not.

01:21:08

I did read the response. That was published by. Barnes.

01:21:16

Oh after all. Wait a minute. So after all these years. Of calling in. You've never read letters to a

01:21:22

Mormon elder? Pierre you hurt me. I am crushed. I am beginning to weep.

01:21:29

On the cover of my microphone. In front of me. Even now. The problem with a book like that.

01:21:35

Is that. It is if you will. A fictitious. Controlled conversation.

01:21:43

Coming out of the mouth. Of the Mormon elders. Mormon elders. Actually they never write.

01:21:49

They never reply. So you've never even looked at it. Pierre if I sent you a free copy of the book.

01:21:55

Would you look at it? Well I certainly would look at it. But you don't have to send me a free copy. I will be happy.

01:22:01

No I will be happy to send you. Because you have called so many times. I will be happy to send you.

01:22:07

A free copy of Letters to a Mormon Elder. You will see. That I literally bent over backwards.

01:22:14

To accurately represent. Mormon orthodoxy. And cite Mormon sources.

01:22:19

And so on and so forth. So when we get to the end of our conversation. Please don't hang up. Rich will put you on hold.

01:22:26

And we will be happy to send you. Not only that. But I will send you Is the Mormon My Brother.

01:22:31

And I promise. Neither book will show up attached with any Christian missionary. To your doorstep. And I don't mind that actually.

01:22:39

I would enjoy a conversation with Christian missionaries. Well we don't. There is only me and Rich. So we don't have anybody who lives in your area anyways.

01:22:45

But be that as it may. The issue Pierre. The reason when we talk about not believing in Jesus Christ.

01:22:53

Our concern is not. Oh you believe in Joseph Smith. Rather than Jesus Christ. Our concern is obviously much more foundational.

01:23:02

And that is. When Joseph Smith said. You have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.

01:23:08

I will refute that idea. And take away the veils that you may see. In the King Follett funeral discourse. A text that you must admit.

01:23:15

Is quoted very often. By church leaders. Not only in the 19th century.

01:23:21

But all through the 20th century. And into the 21st century. When he did that. He separated himself and his followers.

01:23:30

From worshippers. Of the one true God. And so it's the issue of polytheism.

01:23:35

It's the issue of the nature of God. And so when we talk about Jesus. We know that there is a personage.

01:23:41

That you call Jesus the Christ. That you. Exalt and honor.

01:23:47

And so on and so forth. Some Mormons say well we worship him. And some Mormons say we don't. I mean even Alma said we only worship one true

01:23:53

God. And I wanted to ask Derek, Alma. Whatever his name is. Well who is it? Do you worship the

01:23:59

Father? Do you worship the Son? Do you worship the Holy Ghost? There are three different Gods for you.

01:24:04

Which one do you worship? We worship

01:24:10

God the Eternal Father. In the name of Jesus Christ. And by the power of the

01:24:16

Holy Spirit. So do you worship Jesus Christ? These three separate distinct individual beings.

01:24:22

Constitute one Godhead. Godhead. But the object of your worship.

01:24:27

If you worship one God. Are you saying you worship one Godhead? No we worship one

01:24:33

God. God the Eternal Father. Right. So you don't worship

01:24:38

Jesus Christ. As a God specifically. Yes because he is the

01:24:43

Savior. But he is not God the Father. Whom we are commanded to worship. Even Jesus Christ himself.

01:24:50

Points out that the distinction between himself and the Father. With the Father being the only true and living

01:24:57

God. In John chapter 17. Well actually. That's not the terminology he uses in John 17.

01:25:04

But I just needed to know where you're coming from. Because we've had different Mormons say different things.

01:25:10

You're probably aware of the controversy at BYU. When Bruce Armaconkey went up there. And all the rest of that kind of stuff.

01:25:16

Back in the 80's. So it's hard to really know. But our objection then.

01:25:21

Is the fundamental theological objection. That there's only one true God. And when you have a

01:25:28

God. Even the God you worship. According to you. Was once a man. Right. He's an exalted man.

01:25:36

And he at one point in his existence. Whether he continues to do so now or not. I'd have to ask you.

01:25:41

But he used to worship another God. Did he not? Bill has known about that.

01:25:48

But I think the fundamental answer is yes. Okay. And that's where we say.

01:25:53

That is a divide. That is too wide. To be bridged by all the good intentions.

01:26:00

Warm feelings. And meetings between BYU professors. And evangelicals. And get togethers at the

01:26:06

Mormon Tabernacle. In Salt Lake. It's too wide a divide. To be bridged.

01:26:13

That's a fundamentally different religion. In fact. I have said

01:26:18

Pierre. That Islam. Is closer to Christianity. Than Mormonism is.

01:26:24

Because of that fundamental issue. We would take issue with that. If I would anyway.

01:26:31

I would admit to you. That we are in fact. Seriously monotheistic.

01:26:38

And that's why I told you. In my answer to you. Who do we worship?

01:26:44

We worship one God. Even God the Eternal Father. Okay. Who has not eternally been a

01:26:51

God. Right? That's not the issue. The issue is God now.

01:26:56

But it is for Christians. When we talk about monotheism. And the definition of monotheism. And that is an error.

01:27:04

That is an erroneous understanding. Of biblical teaching. Let me give you an example.

01:27:09

For instance. I think it was in the book of John. Where Mary wants to hold him.

01:27:16

When he appears there at the tomb. And he said basically. Don't touch me.

01:27:23

I have not yet gone. Up to my Father. And your Father. My God.

01:27:29

And your God. So if the Father. Is the

01:27:34

God of Jesus Christ. I think in any culture. When someone is your God. He is greater than you are.

01:27:41

So the idea of homoousio. So that somehow. God as Christ.

01:27:47

Or Christ as God. And the Father as God. Somehow. These guys are co -equal.

01:27:55

I would submit to you. It's not in fact a biblical teaching. Except that Jesus said in John 14 .28.

01:28:01

The Father is greater than I am. The term he used for greater there. Does not mean greater. As in having more of an essence.

01:28:07

Or exalted or exaltation. Or anything of the kind. But the problem Pierre. Is it's always been when we talk.

01:28:14

Is that you are operating on the foundation. Of a belief. That God has not eternally been

01:28:20

God. And the New Testament was written. By people who all believed. The testimony of Isaiah 43 .10.

01:28:26

Before me there is no God formed. And there shall be none after me. And so I don't believe.

01:28:32

That the Mormon has any foundation. Upon doing any meaningful interpretation. Of the text of the

01:28:38

New Testament. Because the fundamental truth. Of the biblical revelation of God. Has already been rejected.

01:28:44

Not by biblical exegesis. But because of the fact. That you accept. The prophethood of Joseph Smith.

01:28:51

And that Joseph Smith clearly taught. In the King Follett funeral discourse. And in Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22.

01:28:57

So on and so forth. A view of God that is completely separate. From that of Yahweh.

01:29:03

And that's where we. That's where we separate. And that's why I said the things.

01:29:09

That I said to Derek. Slash Alma. Whoever he might be. So Pierre please stay on the line.

01:29:17

My voice and our time. Have both run out. Please stay on the line for just a moment. Rich is going to put you on hold.

01:29:24

He needs to do that because my side isn't working. And he's going to get your address. And I want to send you both those books.

01:29:31

So the next time you can call me back. And say yes I looked at your books. Hey folks.

01:29:36

Thanks for putting up with my voice today. I'm afraid it may be something that you hear. A few times over the next number of months.

01:29:43

If this is my experience. But hey I feel better than I sound. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on The Dividing Line.

01:29:49

God Bless. Good morning at 11