What is a Pastor? Not a Woman, Part 2

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What is a Pastor? 1 Timothy 2:12-14, Part 3

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Hey folks, just let you know this show I'm traveling and so the audio quality is not what I am regularly
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Doing and might be what you're used to so I ask your forgiveness, but I did not want you to miss an episode
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Therefore I'm recorded while on the road with the equipment that I had available.
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I hope you enjoy this anyway Welcome to the rap report with your host
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Andrew Rappaport where we provide biblical interpretation and application This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the
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Christian podcast community for more content or to request a speaker for your church Go to striving for eternity org
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Welcome to another edition of the rap report. I'm your host Andrew Rappaport We're here to answer your biblical interpretations applications to all things in Christianity This is a ministry of striving for eternity a discipleship ministry
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We are continuing our Discussion Series on what is a pastor?
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We started a last episode in discussing what a pastor is not and we said a pastor is not a woman now we addressed some of the emotional arguments that people make when it comes to saying well a woman can be a pastor and There are a lot of arguments made
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I encourage you to go back to epic to the previous episode and listen to that one So that you're in tune with where we're gonna pick up because today we're picking up on Why women cannot be pastors looking at the arguments from the
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Bible that are made? To justify or explain why women can be pastors.
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We're gonna look at the context of those because what do we provide here? biblical Interpretations and applications.
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Well the interpretation of these passages that people use I don't think what they think they mean just saying but we're gonna look at every one of the ones that I have been given and Look at those.
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I will say at the outset if you have one that you think well I missed well, then email us because we're gonna be dealing with those as well the email address is info at striving for eternity
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Dot -com Striving for eternity dot -com just info at striving for attorney calm that will get you the
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That will get to us so that we will be able to deal with your argument Look if you think
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I'm wrong, I'm okay with that if you think I'm missing something. I'm okay with that. Let's discuss it
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So this is one where we want to hear from you. In fact, we're bribing you to hear from you
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We we have more gifts to be sending out this week if you email us with things that you want us to address when it
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Comes to what it a pastor is We have one that came in this week that I'm planning to address when we get to the qualifications of a pastor what does it mean to be a well in the
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Greek one woman man the the Pastor has to be the husband of one wife.
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What exactly does that mean? Is that dealing with divorce or something else? We're gonna address that we got that question in that's gonna be addressed soon
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So what we're giving is we bought a bunch of these cords at a highly discounted price just saying so people don't think we're wasting
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Money, this was actually my own money. It wasn't ministry money But I donated these to the ministry.
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We have these cables Called Lux. They're charging cables.
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They're high -speed cables that all have a lifetime Guarantee with them or warranty.
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So anything goes wrong with them You just send it back to the company and they send out another I know that actually works because my son he did that So if you want to get one of these cables there
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They're longer than normal cables, which I appreciate because I travel and I end up needing that extra length
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But they're very solid cables. I like them They do charge quicker than the normal ones be
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I guess because they're gold -plated So if you want to get one of those just email us with what you want to hear in this series or anything you think
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I got wrong or missing in the series and if there's any that we Need to catch up on like if we're if it's dealing with women's roles and we're wrapped up with that Well, I may do a wrap -up to answering your questions at the end of the season if I didn't get them all
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So as they at the end of the series so with that email info at striving for eternity dot -com
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Let's get into today's Lesson, this is one where I want to go through the arguments in in no particular order
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It's just the order that I heard them that I was challenged with them and I put them in a list I have of all the arguments that are made and my
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Quick responses. So when they come up, I have a ready answer And so this is me going through that whole document looking through one at a time each one of these
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So we're gonna start with Chloe in 1st Corinthians chapter 1 verse 11 If you're not driving
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I would encourage you to open your copy of God's Word This is what 1st
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Corinthians 1 11 says speaking of Chloe It says for I have been informed concerning you my brethren by Chloe's People that there are quarrels among you now the argument that some people have stated here is as I've heard at least that there's people who say we'll see because this says
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Chloe's people or Referring to Chloe in this manner people are trying to say that Chloe somehow
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It Was The pastor that's the argument that's made now.
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I'm gonna first off say when we do interpretation one thing we must do is Remember that a translation is just that it's a translation.
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We want to go back to the original languages and so the word people is inserted it is not there in the
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Greek if you have a Translation of that's a formal equivalent.
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That's a word -for -word translation What you have is they're gonna translate each word one at a time and when they have to put filler words in They're gonna put it in italics.
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This is your New American Standard your King James New King James These are gonna be ones where you can easily see that the word people is added because as I read out of the
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New American Standard it's that word people's in italics So it should be for I have been informed concerning you my brethren by Chloe's That there are quarrels among you now this is
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Probably referring to Chloe's house not necessarily her Congregation as some say and there are some translations that refer to it as Chloe's house
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And so the the claim though is that well if it's in her house, she's a house church leader
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It could just be I know this is a crazy thought that maybe Chloe had the largest house and they needed the largest one
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For the gathering. I mean think about how you would do church If you didn't have a church building you would go and find the biggest home.
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In fact when I was In a church plant We're just starting out.
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We didn't have a church building. I was looking to buy a house Because of the fact that I was doing the preaching and I would
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I was filling that that role at the time The thought was is that well I should get a larger house because if I remained in that role it would make sense because we didn't have a church building where We're gonna have
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Bible studies So we needed someone with a bigger house now That is something that can factor in I know someone else who is planting a church and did the same thing
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He bought a bigger house than he normally would have Only so he could have Bible studies because they didn't have a church building and so the house became the building
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Now this is at a time when there weren't church buildings. So the house was what was used.
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So her house was used That's all that the verse really states. It doesn't mention anything about her being in leadership
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There's there's no leadership role mentioned. It's just that she's been informed by people at Chloe's That there's quarrels
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What's is it people in Chloe's house? Who did Chloe? Talk to Paul Well, we don't see that because it doesn't say it could be if it's by Chloe without the plural
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Possessive but the thing is is that it's it's a question of when we examine this
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We have to ask the question of what's the text actually saying and not read too much into it There's no leadership role
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Assigned here There's it's only inserted and assumed when people want to use this passage to say that Chloe was a pastor
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It could be that Chloe had the biggest house Than anyone else in the church and therefore that would fit for everyone or could be that Chloe was the one that did all the cooking when the church would gather and Therefore it makes sense because it's the easiest on her
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She's the one doing most of the cooking to have it at her house But just having it at her house does not make her a leader in the church
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And so when people argue for this being in Chloe's house That that makes her a pastor we can look at the context and see that's not the case
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There's nothing here that says that she was a pastor or a leader in any way Next we have
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Priscilla now Priscilla is mentioned way more I mean, we have only a few verses with many of these women
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But with Priscilla we haven't a bunch and I want to read some lengthy passages So the first is it the longest that we're gonna read is acts 18
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And so this is what acts 18 says regarding Priscilla then after after these things he left
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Athens and went to Corinth And this speaking of Paul by the way Verse 2 and he found a
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Jew named Aquila a native of Pontius having recently come from Italy with his wife
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Priscilla because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them and Because he was one of the same trade he stayed with them and they were working for by trade
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They were tent makers and he reasoned and and he was reasoning in the synagogues every
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Sabbath and trying to persuade The Jews and Greeks now mind you who is the one doing the reasoning here.
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It's Paul. Let's continue verse 5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia Macedonia Paul began devoting himself completely to the word solemnly testifying to the
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Jews that Jesus was the Christ, but when they insisted resisted and Blasphemed he shook out his garments took them
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And said to them your blood be on your own head I am clean from now on I will go to the
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Gentiles and then he left Went to the house of a man named Titus justice a worship of God who was in the house next to the synagogue now we see here that all that's mentioned here with Priscilla is that she is the wife of Aquila so there's nothing else about Priscilla mentioned.
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Let's look at the next passage And that is Romans 16 3 to 5 it says this is again
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Paul speaking He says greet Priscilla and Aquila my fellow workers in Jesus in Christ Jesus Who for my life risk their own necks to whom not only do
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I give thanks? But also all the churches of the Gentiles also greet the church that is in their house
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So would you see here again all that's mentioned is Priscilla is
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Mentioned with Aquila now some people will make this issue to say well She's mentioned first so she must be the prior one
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You know we don't know why he he mentions the wife first But he did in this case.
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He didn't in Acts in Luke didn't in Acts, but here he refers to Priscilla first maybe he was working closer at Tent making with Priscilla, maybe it's she who helped him when he to risk her own neck for him, so he greets her first Not exactly sure there's nothing given but to read into that That she is a leader in the church because she was mentioned first or that somehow.
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She's preaching There's no mention of that all that we see here is that Priscilla and Aquila were his fellow workers
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Could that be intent making which we already saw in Acts it could be could it be in the ministry well
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It sounds like it because it's it's what they're you know all the Gentile churches are Grateful are they grateful that they spared that they helped
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Risk their neck for Paul that could be there's nothing given to the reason here
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So so far there's nothing that we could perceive in this to say that this is anything more than he's mentioning a husband and a wife
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Let's continue to see if maybe more scripture helps us to understand first Corinthians 1619 the churches of Asia greet you
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Aquila and Priscilla greet you heartily in the Lord with the church That is in their house now notice this time
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Aquila is mentioned first not Priscilla so now you have the dilemma if you're saying that Priscilla and mentioning first makes her the pastor because then
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I guess Now it's reversed now. He's the pastor and she's not you see This is the problem when people try to read something into Scripture But what is very clear in both the passages?
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We just looked at is that the church meets in their house In in their house why maybe they're the biggest house
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Maybe again Priscilla's mentioned first in the other passages. She's doing all the cooking Whatever the reason we don't know.
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The only thing that's mentioned here is the greeting that they greet them Let's look at the last one that we have for Priscilla and that is 2nd
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Timothy 4 19 greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of An or normies.
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So what you have here is three passages That just mentioned to greet
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Aquila and Priscilla. Why because the church meets in their house It's never mentioned
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Her without her husband by the way Is it if we say?
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Bill and Hillary Clinton Now Bill was the president. Does that mean
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Hillary was the president? No if we say Joe and Jill Biden Well, Joe is the president does that mean that Jill is the president?
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No Mentioning the two together doesn't mean one has a role that the other has and to infer a role just because they're both mentioned to infer that she's doing the preaching and teaching that Paul was doing in the synagogue and that's the assumption that she was teaching alongside of Paul to make that assumption is
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Just that it's an assumption There's nothing in any of the passages that refer to her as being anything other than by her husband's side
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It's her the how his house where she's probably doing the cooking But there's no other mention.
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She's never mentioned without her husband. There's no evidence that she ever taught Anybody We might can look to to acts 18 if we continue in there and see that her husband she and her husband were teaching and That passages is the lengthy passage
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I didn't get to read the whole thing But when you get to it, you end up seeing that she was that that they were teaching
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Apollos when they found him But who did the teaching of Apollos? It doesn't say it was from her
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It just said that they were working with Paul they see Apollos and They were teaching him.
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This is in verse 23 of chapter 18 of Acts and having spent some time There he left and passed through the
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Galatia region Strengthening the disciples a Jew named Apollos and exam Alexandrian by birth an eloquent man came to Ephesus and he was mighty in the
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Scriptures a man Had been instructed in the way of the Lord Okay, and then we see in verse 26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue
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But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately
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So you see that? Yes, she might be mentioned first in that passage But it does not say that she did the teaching it says that both her and her husband did the teaching
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So to make the case that she's somehow Teaching men or a pastor based on that passage
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It doesn't say that she's mentioned with her husband teaching Apollos. It doesn't say she said anything
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She could have been completely silent and let her husband do all the talking for all we know There's nothing in the text that says otherwise
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There's nothing in the text that says she taught and there's nothing that says she didn't So to use passages like this to insert something or to make a doctrine to say that women can teach or preach
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Would be to read into the scriptures something that is not there It's to assume something of the text and I want to remind you
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It's a paraphrase from John Calvin obviously a paraphrase because he didn't write this in English So it's translated and I'm paraphrasing from that but he says that when you take
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God's Word out of context You no longer have God's Word. You have man's Word and when you insert something into the scripture
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That's not clearly there. You have man's Word. You no longer have God's Word and That's what's happening here.
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The text does not say what they claim it says So because it doesn't say it who's right could
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Priscilla have taught in fact, I'll say this. Yes. I could say that maybe she did teach
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Apollos But would it have been wrong according to what we saw last week in first Corinthians?
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Sorry in first Timothy 2. Yes See the point is not that just because a woman teaches a man.
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That's not what makes it, right? In fact, it could be that the reason we don't see if she did teach maybe we don't see it because God knew that was wrong
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Because this clear text of scripture in first Timothy 2 and we're gonna spend time probably next week on that The clear teaching is it?
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Exposes the fact that women should not teach or preach or have authority over men That's what the scriptures say
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So to read into this passage is just doing that and so we do not want to build a doctrine on Something that where the scripture is silent
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That's a dangerous thing to do. Let's look at the next woman mentioned in scripture and that is
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Genia Jonah now Gina is in Romans 16 verse 7.
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It just says And sorry that I butcher some of these names but greet
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Anatoly kiss and Gina my kinsmen and fellow prisoners who are
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Outstanding among the Apostles who also were in Christ before me now some like to mention the fact that this is possibly a feminine name and People make a big deal about this.
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I Have no problem with this being a female Because just like Priscilla if it's a female
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Maybe it's she's being mentioned with her husband the first person mentioned if it's a female
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And so if that's the case if she's mentioned with her husband and there's no mention of any role in the church here
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Just saying to greet them because they're his kinsmen and fellow prisoners
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Okay, so They're related to him. So he's saying hey greet them. Does that mean they're pastors that she would be a pastor?
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No, so any use of this to insert or assume
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That she has any role in the church leadership or role of teaching Again is what we would call eisegesis
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Let me explain that word eisegesis it means to put into and exegesis is to take out of so to eisegesis a passage means you're putting a meaning into the passage and to exegesis a passage is to take the meaning out of the passage
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What we want to do is to know God's Word which means to exegete to take the meaning out of the passage and what people do with this person passage is read something into the passage that's
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Not there. They say that because she's mentioned she must be a pastor Now there's many many people mentioned in the
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Bible that are not pastors. Nobody seems to think that Adriakis is a pastor.
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There's no none of these people are arguing that and yet he's mentioned So the fact is is that these are just people that are mentioned and he gives the reason they're mentioned because they're his kinsmen and his
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Fellow prisoners who are outstanding among the Apostles who were also in Christ before Paul That's why he has the this message in greeting
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In fact, this is in a in Romans 16 What's special about Romans 16 the whole chapter is nothing but greet this person greet this person greet this person greet this person now
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He's saying this in the Roman Church. This must be a really big church if every one of these people are pastors
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You see when we look at this even logically the people who say well, she must be a pastor
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She must be teaching. She must be preaching just because a woman is mentioned to be greeted But they don't argue that every other person mentioned is a pastor or somehow teaching or preaching
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You see this is not the way to do Bible interpretation this just mentions that Gina Jania is mentioned in relation to Paul and To greet her.
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That's it. Just greet her So to do anything more is to well, it's to abuse the text just remember
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The the one who is the father of twisting scripture is Satan. We don't want to be like him
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We don't want to take scripture and make it say what it does not say but very clearly take it for what it does say and so all that these so far we've seen is the these women are mentioned and They're mentioned not in a way of having a church leadership role or any function
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They're doing in the church other than housing the church in their home in some cases
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They're working with Paul. They're working with others. But the one you see them working with is their husband okay, so you you did you kiddia and Seneke is another this we see in Philippians 4 2 2 3 let's look at this.
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I urge a kitty Idotia and I urge cicada to live in harmony in the
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Lord indeed true companion I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel together with Clement who?
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Clement also and the rest of the fellow workers also named here in the book of life
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So Paul mentions these two women Who worked alongside him for the gospel the note working alongside the gospel doesn't mean preaching
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It doesn't mean that they were church doing church pastoring. They weren't leaders in the church
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It just says he worked alongside them in what capacity we don't know
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But the sharing the gospel is not preaching. I Know that people call it that today in many places
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But what we have to realize is that when we look at it, it just says That they shared in the gospel now the word true companion in verse 3
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By the way, some take that as a formal name the main name if it's a formal name the name means true companion
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So he may be using that name To point out that he's a true companion, but he wants these two women to act in harmony so just saying if if they're pastors in the church
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He has words for how to deal with that in first Timothy 5 19 and 20
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He's if that was the case, he would say they're continuing in sin You you rebuke them publicly so all would fear
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He's not doing that so right there says that either Paul is not following the the scriptures or well the
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What he would later write so it wasn't the scripture yet But but the the doctrine that we'd have for how to handle discipline
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Either he's not following that or They're not pastors.
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I think it's probably easier to say they're just two women in the church they're causing division and he's asking someone to work with them
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Paul mentions them as Working alongside him for the gospel not preaching.
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They worked with Clement. Oh Oh, so they worked with Paul and Clement So, how do you know maybe it was
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Paul and Clement that were reaching out to the men and they reached out to the women With them that's possible.
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Maybe they were in the marketplace and and the the ladies would go and minister to the other women
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Possible because in that culture the men wouldn't talk to women So is it very possible that in sharing the gospel you had the men talking to men and women talking to women?
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Yeah, so were the women then preaching to men? Probably not even if it was the gospel.
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They're probably sharing it with women Again as with the other there's no evidence
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That they taught anyone so we so far all of these have not shown anything that shows any kind of leadership
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Role that they have it's asserted and assumed it could it could just as easily be that Clement did all the teaching and The other women sat there silent
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The scripture just does not say so to build a doctrine on This is to make the scripture say something it does not say we got to be careful not to do that Let's look at the next passage and and these are some of these are getting
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More and more the arguments that I hear that are taking a little bit more time is we're gonna get on to some of these Later ones.
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So just bear with me as we we do that and I hope that I'm not putting to you to sleep with all this yet But if you are sleepy,
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I'll just tell you you can only stop and re -listen later But if you are sleepy before you put your head on your pillow
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SFE and That is another way of supporting us Let's look at Lydia in Acts 16
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Acts 16 starting in verse 13 looking down to verse 15. It says and on the
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Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside where we were supposing that we would be a place of prayer and we sat down and began teaching and began speaking to the women who were assembled a woman named
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Lydia from the city of Tyre a seller of purple fabrics a worshiper of God was listening and the
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Lord opened her heart to Respond to the things spoken of Paul and when she and her household had been baptized she urged us saying if you have
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Judged me to be faithful to the Lord come into my house and Stay upon us and if we skip down to verse 40, we see her mentioned again
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It says and they went out from prison and entered the house of Lydia and they saw
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The brethren and they were encouraged them and departed now notice. This is how
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Lydia was converted So what we see here is she was a new convert not a leader. There's no way to say that she was a pastor
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Because a new convert shouldn't be a pastor. There's nowhere where she's saying she's preaching
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In fact that this the the scripture is saying that again. It's that she had a big house and they met at her house
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So to argue that she was somehow a leader when when the scriptures are are clear that a new convert shouldn't be a leader
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That the text doesn't say anything about her being a leader a pastor or even a preacher She's a new believer so once again to build the doctrine off of this passage or the the path to look at Lydia as justifying pastors can be women or Preachers of men could be women is to insert it and assume it it does not come from scripture
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Now one that gets a lot of discussion is Phoebe I hear this one a bunch
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Phoebe in Acts 16 again Sorry, Romans 16 and what is
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Romans 16 again? I mentioned it before it's a list of people that Paul says to greet and this is the first of the list and it says in verses 1 & 2
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I commend you to our sister Phoebe who is a servant of the church which is at good
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San Santhea That you receive her in the
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Lord in a manner worthy of the Saints and that you help her in whatever matter.
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She may have need of you for She herself has been a helper of many and of myself as well now
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People say we'll see it says that she's a servant of the church Hmm, what is this word that we have here for servant
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Phoebe is mentioned as a Deaconess a deacon the servant the word for deacon is the word for servant a waiter of tables a feminine version a deaconess deaconess
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You have a woman deacon now that means she definitely is not the pastor and she wouldn't be the preacher
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Can a deacon teach? Yes, there are times when we see the deacons that would preach and teach
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But that's not their role. Their role was as a servant by the way little history note
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Why do we have the word deacon when we had a perfectly good English word because at the time that they were translating deacons instead of being servants were leaders in the church because they created this hierarchy of System where they had bishops and they had
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Cardinals I had all these different things and they had deacons which were the lay leaders And so it was a way to have leaders that were not paid that were in the church
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But because they were being disobedient to the scriptures there. What did they do?
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well, if they translated it properly, then everyone goes Oh a deacon's a servant not a leader and That would have been a problem for them
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So what do they do they create a new English word mistake? We should have kept the word servant because that's what a deacon is a servant
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So a servant is not a pastor not an overseer. Their role is not to have oversight their role is not to teach
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I Will state this could be a further discussion. Maybe we'll get into a discussion of what is a deacon but I have no problem with a female deacon if Note I said if if The deacon is nothing more than a servant that the deacon is not in a role where they're making decisions for the church
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That's the elders roles the pastors role the overseers. That's their job
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That's their the name of their title is to oversee and so that's what they do
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So as we look at this, we have to recognize that this is the role I believe that is
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Exclusive to the men to be the pastors the women can be deacons.
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You can have male and female deacons in fact I think it makes a lot of sense because you know you don't want to have if you have a single woman and you need someone to go and Meet with her and take care of her help her and serve her
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You don't want one of the men going over you want a woman going over and you can have as a husband and wife is
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Fine, but I believe in in first Timothy where it talks about deacons and their roles
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It mentions the women. I think those women are female deacons There's some who disagree and think it's it.
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It's the wives. I think that again That goes back to the translation issues
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We have when the Bible is being translated because the deacons then were leaders and women couldn't be leaders
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And so they said deacons wives, but the word there for wife could refer to Someone specifics wife and it's used that way in Scripture when it's referring to a specific husband
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When it mentions the husband in general it could just be women and so that term could be used either way
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We could spend more time on that, but if you have questions with that just email me And we'll see if there's much interest.
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Maybe we'll dig it into that a little bit more, but info at striving for eternity comm so Some you know we as we mentioned.
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This is the word for deacon a deacon It's it's true that some deacons have also been pastors or preachers
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They be they leave the deacon role become a pastor It's true that some deacons we see them teaching
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Stephen is a deacon we see him teaching Preaching is fine some pastors
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Can and should be servants. I'm not saying that you know you can have someone who I mean every pastor should have a servant leadership
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They they shouldn't see themselves as above the church, but they still have roles to serve but there's a position in the church known as deacon and the pastor is
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One position of oversight and leadership where the deacon can be male or female
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But that is a servant role not a leadership role that it may be hard to understand because so many of the churches give the position as deacon as a
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Leader in the church, and I just don't think that's a biblical model if they're having oversight call them pastor
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If you don't think they're qualified to be pastor. They're not qualified to be deacon anyway It's not like a deacon is a stepping stone to pastor, okay?
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So it's not like you become past a deacon And then you're on the roll to pastor if you do a good deacon role
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No, the deacon think of it this way the pastor's role is the oversight of the church looking at the long -term
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Planning of the church making the decisions and the deacons are the ones that carry out the day -to -day operations
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Instructed by the the pastors maybe that'd be a helpful way to see it Some claim though that Timothy who is also a pastor and is also called a deacon or servant
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Therefore Phoebe is also a pastor Do we see that in anywhere in Scripture? I already said it could be that someone is a pastor and does do service they better by the way
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This is called an association fallacy an Association fallacy is an informal inductive fallacy of the hasty generalization or red herring type now let me explain some of those so it what it does is it asserts by you know an
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Rel association that has nothing to do with anything. So it's an irrelevant association that Basically says, okay, you have one thing
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So in this case Timothy is mentioned to be a deacon He's also a pastor
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Phoebe is mentioned to be a deacon or servant Therefore she must be a pastor that is a hasty generalization
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Which just means you're making a general as I generalization in a hasty way Or it would someone call red herring the red herring is a red herring fallacy is just you you distract with something else
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But this is more closely would be an association fallacy because what's happening here is people who do this are associating something with Timothy Okay and saying well if it's true for Timothy it must be true for Phoebe and there's nothing that correlate the two
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Just because Timothy is a pastor and does service doesn't mean Phoebe who does service is also a pastor that's the association and It's one that's irrelevant.
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And so this is why I said this is a fallacy and it's an if it's a fallacy It's an invalid argument and if it's an invalid argument
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We shouldn't make this argument because it's not gonna be from Scripture. God is not a logical He's not gonna use things where we have to use illogical arguments to make doctrine
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The doctrine is going to be clear from Scripture So all this to say that Timothy is a pastor.
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He's also a servant Phoebe is also a servant but the conclusion That because Timothy has two titles means that she has two titles is invalid
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Okay, let us spend some time with the last person in our list And this is the one we're gonna spend the longest amount of time with but this is the one that has the strongest argument and I'll be honest with you
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I Think this is the worst case that people can make and you'll see why in a moment
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Let me read this is how to judges chapter 4 starting in verse 4 to 14 And then we're gonna look at the first 21 first 21 verses of chapter 5
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I'm gonna read this because it is lengthy, but it is important. This is dealing with Deborah.
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I Want to read this and I want you to notice some things with Deborah there's gonna be two issues that we want to address one is the roles between the religious roles and the civil roles
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That we see there's gonna be Those two aspects. There's a religious leader and a civil leader
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We're also gonna notice one thing really important in this I want you to notice as I read through this the words of Deborah and you see if Deborah is
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Commending Barack for this behavior or if she's offering a judgment on him for this behavior because I Think we're gonna see quite clearly
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What her view is on whether she should be doing this now, you could say if she thinks it's wrong.
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Why did she do it? Well, we'll get to that. Let's start This is judges chapter 4 verse 4.
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And by the way, if you're listening to a Christian podcast That's all about biblical interpretations and applications and you're upset with the reading of Scripture What's wrong with you people to quote
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R .C. Sproul? Um, I can't do it as well as he does but I Do think reading the scripture is important because I want us to get the context of this so that people can't say
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Oh Andrew, you're taking it out of context. I don't want to just say what the scripture says Let the scripture speak for itself.
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So it says this again This is judges for starting in verse 4 if you have your Word of God open read along with me now
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Deborah a prophetess the wife of Lipidoth and sorry again for my pronunciation names was judging
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Israel at the time She used to sit under the this under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment she sat and summoned
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Barak the son of Enomium from Kiddush Natali and said to him behold the
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Lord the God of Israel has Commanded go and march the Mount of Timor and make with you 10 ,000 men from the sons of Nabal Natali and from the sons of Zebulun I will draw out
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I Will draw out to you Sierra the commander of Jeban's army with the chariots and his many troops in the river
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Kunash and I will give them into your hand then Barak said to her if you will go with me
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Then I will go but if you will not go with me, I will not go She said
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I will surely go with you nevertheless the honor Shall not be yours on the journey.
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That is that you are about to take for the Lord will sell Sarah Sierra into the hands of a woman
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Then Deborah rose and went with Barak to Kiddush Barak called
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Zebulun and of Tali together to Kiddush and 10 ,000 men went up with him
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Deborah also went up with him now her now
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Heber and Kenan Had separated himself from the
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Canaanite Canaanites from the sons of Haban The father -in -law of Moses and had pitched his tent as far away from the oak in Zimian Which is near Kadesh Then they told
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Sarah that Barak the son of Adomium had gone up to Mount Tamal Tabor Sarah called together all his chariots 900 iron chariots and all the people who were with him from the
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Haras Harmonium to the river Kadesh Deborah said to Barak arise
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For this is the day in which the Lord has given Sarah into your hands Behold, the
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Lord has gone out before you so Barak went down from the Mount of Tabor with 10 ,000 men following him
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Now we drop down to chapter 5 skip over to the part about the battle to see where Deborah is mentioned again
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So this is chapter 5 verse 20 verse 1 Then Deborah and Barak the son of Adomium sang on the that day
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Singing and I should mention by the way, just the note that what ended up happening was the the jailed
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Heber's wife took a tent peg to Barak and Killed him and so it was a woman who actually killed him which would be a disgrace in that culture by the way
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So as we see in the way, it was worded but let's read verse 1 of chapter 5 then Deborah and Barak the son of Adomium sang on that day singing that the leaders led in Israel that the people
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Volunteered blessed be blessed the Lord here. Oh Kings give ear Oh rulers
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I to the Lord will I will sing I will sing praise to the Lord the
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God of Israel Lord when you went out of from seer when you marched from the field of Edom The field the the earth quaked in the heaven also dripped even the clouds dripped water the mountains quaked at the presence of the
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Lord this Sinai at the presence of the Lord the God of Israel in the days of Shogomar and the son of Ath in the days of GL The highways were deserted and the travelers went by roundabout ways the the pleasantry ceased and They ceased in Israel until I Deborah arose until I arose a mother in Israel New gods were chosen then war
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Was in the gates not a shield nor spear were seen among the 40 ,000 in Israel My heart goes out to the commander of Israel the volunteers among the people blessed bless the
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Lord you who ride on white donkeys you who sit in the rich carpets and You who travel on the road sing at the sound of those who who divide the flocks among the watering places there shall
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There they shall recount the righteous deeds of the Lord the righteous deeds of his pleasantry in Israel Then the people of the
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Lord went down to the gates Awake awake Deborah awake awake sing a song arise
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Barack and take away your captors Oh son of Abian Then survivors came down to the nobles
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The people of the Lord came down to me as warriors from Ephraim Those whose root is in Amalek came down Following you
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Benjamin with all your with your peoples from Makar commanders came down and from Zebulun those who wield the staff of the office and the prince of Issachar were with Deborah as Was is a car so with Barack into the valley they rushed at his heels
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Among the divisions of Reuben they were great resolve. They were there were great resolves of heart
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Why did you sit among the sheepfold to hear the piping of the flocks among the divisions of Reuben?
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Were there were great searchings of the heart Gideon remained across the
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Jordan Why did Dan stay in ships Asher sat in the seashore and remained in the landings?
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Zebulun was a people who despised their lives even to death and Natali Also with the high places of the field the
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Kings came out and fought They then fought the kings of Canaan and to knock
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Near the waters of middick middick Midga middick Meg did go
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Sorry, they took They took no plunder and silver that the stars fought from heaven from their courses.
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They fought Against Syrah the torment of Kaddish swept away the ancient torrid the tort of Kuda Kiss none.
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Oh my soul march with strength then the horses And the hooves beat from across and dashed the seed
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Curse morez said the angel of the Lord utter the curse of the inhabitants because They did not help the warrior of the
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Lord to help the were the to help the Lord's against the warriors And and this goes on to the end of the chapter with what she had said no more mention of her
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So why do we bring this up? Okay this one? I want to spend the most time on if I can If you'd bear with me with this, so what it says here is
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Deborah is a prophetess the wife of lipids And so I know some people will say right there.
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Oh see see she's a prophetess. That's means she's a pastor No a pastor's not a prophet a prophets not a pastor
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They're two separate functions two different roles with two different groups of God's people
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This is a different functioning that God has for people, so let's deal with what it says so Scripture also mentions that Deborah was a judge of Israel.
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She's mentioned in the list of judges So people come to her to pass judgment
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Civil role not religious role that becomes important She's acting as a judge and as a judge.
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She's now is she getting direct revelation from God It yes, that's what
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Scripture is saying by the way It's direct revelation which makes it equal to Scripture Why because it's coming from God and notice no one questions when they get direct revelation no one questions
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Whether it's from God no one questions. What it is. There's not this direct revelation that takes human interpretation
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It's direct revelation, and they repeat exactly what they heard directly from God There's no questioning of it and everyone recognizes that it's direct from God and it's prophecy
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Unlike the prophecy claim today where people go. Oh, you know I got to interpret that I heard from God I heard a voice, but I could be wrong because That's just how
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I interpreted the direct revelation. No there is no interpretation in direct revelation Just like there's no interpretation when when
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Paul writes Romans it is Inspired because it comes from God, and it's direct.
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It's not Paul's interpretation of the revelation It is the revelation, and that's what direct revelation means.
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That's what prophecy is so she's a prophetess So she repeats exactly what she heard from God that means she's not teaching
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It means she's not leading it means She's telling you what God told her to say
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Just like the women at the tomb that are told to go and tell the men This is what
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Jesus said and what do they do they pass exactly pass that message on? That's no different here, so people came to her to pass judgment in civil matters
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Not religious matters that is an important distinction that I make here, but Verse six states that she summoned
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Barack the word in the in that we would have here If we look at the
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Greek manuscript is to call or a point Okay, so the the Hebrew doesn't have that distinction, but when the
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Hebrew scholars were translating the Hebrew Into Greek they used a word here in the
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Spituagin Which is a Greek translation of the of the Hebrew means to call or a point?
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However as One is continuously reading the scripture It's clear that it was the
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Lord who commanded Barack not Deborah So some people will make a big point to say we'll see in the
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Greek it has this appointing and she's commanding him to do something But all she's doing is following God's order.
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She's calling for Barack because God called for him to come to Deborah And so she's sending message
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So it seems that it was known that God called
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Barack to lead the army and She calls him to do what God commanded him to do, but Barack Could not be a man he could it could be a man very much like Jonah Who he knew
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God's command, but didn't want to do it. Maybe he was afraid He was afraid to do it and he wanted
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Deborah there. Why might he want Deborah there? Well for one reason he's afraid and maybe what it comes down to is he sees that Deborah is
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God is speaking to Deborah and he just feels that if Deborah's with him that He would have
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God's favor This is very similar to what we would see in the Old Testament when they bring the Ark of the Covenant to war
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Because they feel God's presence in there is there We see this other times in history by the way with Joan of Arc Okay, where the king wouldn't go to war without her she had to be there because somehow
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I'd like the good luck charm Maybe that is how What he's Barack is thinking here that that having her there would be
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Would be the good luck charm So it he's he's saying he so who is it?
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That's asking her to go in the position And be with him. It's Barack not
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God That's an important distinction to note It's important to note that going to war at that time was seen as a religious activity and not a civil activity
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So in Barack will not go to war without Deborah. She states a judgment on Barack That because of this request he will not go out and get the glory that the general the army would get for winning the war instead
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Because he wants a woman to go with him The judgment is that the
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Lord will will give Will give that honor
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To the hands of a woman which was it would be a judgment on him in that day. So this is not a good thing
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Deborah is saying that there's a judgment on him okay, a
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Should have But a woman will get it. Therefore She is clearly not in favor of a woman involved in the warfare
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She goes This is very much. I think like we see in numbers a 20 22 23 24
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Where you see? Balaam who is he he really wants to go with Balak, but he knows it's wrong
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But he keeps asking and God says fine you can go Then we know it's God's will because he went
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But and yet in his going what he was doing was disobedience and he did it
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But it was for God's purpose. So Deborah is going as a civil leader She's saying it's wrong.
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Now. We could argue whether knowing it's wrong. She shouldn't have gone. I would say yeah But she's going maybe part of her direct revelation
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She knew that Barack would ask this and she knew she would go as a judgment on him
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It could be but what we do know, so, you know I'm not gonna read that in say that's is what it is but what
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I can see clearly is she says that his asking for her to go and her going was a judgment on him and because of that he wouldn't have the honor he should have and In judges 5 the song that we read that's from Deborah the song of Deborah and Barack it's clear that Deborah separates herself from the leaders as She does not include herself with them in verse 1 and in verses 7 to 9
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She even more so separates herself from the leaders Referring to herself as the mother of Israel in in verse 7 and Her heart goes out to the commanders of Israel in verse 9
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So you see she's not putting herself in the level at the level of the leaders. She makes the separation there in her song so in conclusion
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Deborah was not functioning as a religious in a religious activity Or in a religious role as a judge, but as a civil one
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Yes, she's called a prophet But in Exodus 7 and 1 to 4 we see that to be a prophet at the time of Moses at the time
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Moses and before the time of the Kings Meant to speak for God.
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So in a civil role. She did speak for God as a judge it is important to note that when we speak of a woman as Pastors or preachers it is in a religious activity and not a civil one
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Therefore a man may be able to work for a woman in a secular job But that does not mean she's a pastor or could be a pastor or leader in a religious activity such as the church that distinction has not been made from the text and to build a doctrine from the life of Deborah or to insert or assume that therefore
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Women can be pastors and teachers when the scripture does not say that Says the opposite is to again read into the text what the text does not say we do not want to be students of Satan and read into scripture what it does not say and to take scripture at Making it man's word, but God's word and so The fact that she's mentioned to be a prophetess, let me read what it says in Exodus 7 1 2 4 then the
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Lord said to Moses see that I make you as Make you as God to Pharaoh And your brother
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Aaron shall be your prophet You shall speak all that I command you and your brother
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Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh That he let the sons of Israel go out of the land, but I will harden
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Pharaoh's heart and I will Multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt when
01:00:03
Pharaoh does not listen to you then I will lay my hands on Egypt and bring you out of my host my people the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt by great judgment what you see here is that a
01:00:16
Prophet is one you have two prophets mentioned here Moses and Aaron and what are they gonna do?
01:00:22
God is gonna speak directly to Moses. Why why is he doing this? Because remember Moses said
01:00:28
I Stutter, I'm not a man of good speech. And so he's saying that God is gonna speak directly to Moses Moses will speak directly to Aaron the very direct words of God That makes
01:00:42
Aaron a prophet because he is relaying to Pharaoh the direct Revelation that came from God to Moses to Pharaoh.
01:00:51
What makes him a prophet is the relaying of the direct Revelation That is what a prophet is now and then we could say
01:01:02
Okay, someone who reads scripture is a prophet because they're relaying the direct revelation of God.
01:01:07
That's true. That would be Fitting in that definition, but then someone who interprets the
01:01:14
Word of God is no longer doing that now That's not what a prophet does a prophet doesn't interpret
01:01:22
God's Word They relay God's Word and that's the difference there.
01:01:29
I Hope this has been helpful for you to see I that though Deborah is the the most
01:01:35
Difficult of them and I that's why I spent the most time with her It's something that we have to recognize that from the the clear passage of Scripture in in Timothy 2 12 to 14 a woman should not teach or have authority over a man and So what you end up seeing is none of these passages that anyone uses goes against that passage
01:02:01
All except for Deborah It's just women who are mentioned they're mentioned usually along with their husband or they're mentioned because they're the church meets in their house but none of our mentioned in a leadership role and So here you have just the mention of someone being a prophetess does not make them a
01:02:19
Pastor or teacher because a prophet is one who relays the direct revelation from God that's what we see and So even when you have
01:02:31
I forget the name in Acts I should I should actually add that to this list in Acts There is a woman who's mentioned as a prophetess where she prophesies something with Paul Again, is that a problem?
01:02:44
No, because what is she doing? She's relaying the direct Word of God if a woman was to read
01:02:50
Scripture to a man I'd have no problem with that That's no different than what a prophet would do or prophetess is to relay the direct
01:02:57
Word of God Not interpreting not instructing the men in any way but relaying what
01:03:05
God says So something to think about it comes down to definitions as well
01:03:11
But notice that all these passages not one of them actually refute what
01:03:16
Timothy 1st Timothy 2 12 and 14 says so Looking at the biblical arguments made for women pastors women preachers are do any of these convince you
01:03:28
I would hope not In fact, I would hope that you walk away going. Wow.
01:03:33
These are really bad lame arguments because they are I Hope this encourages you to realize that the more we dig into Scripture the more we look to the the right interpretation
01:03:45
The more we're gonna have an accurate understanding of God's Word So may this encourage you in God's Word may this cause you to dig in deeper to the study?
01:03:56
We're gonna continue next week Maybe I'm not sure if I'm gonna look to you guys to let me know email me info at striving fraternity comm or Contact me on Facebook or Twitter or whatever.
01:04:09
Let me know if you want more if Into this we could dig into Specifically looking at 1st
01:04:16
Timothy 2 12 and following some other passages to see the the arguments made
01:04:21
Against women teachers. I kind of made that in last episode But if you want more we'll do that If not, we're gonna move on in our series on what is a pastor and until then
01:04:33
That's a wrap This podcast is part of the striving fraternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church