How to Present the Gospel then Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James wife Thank You Maury welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning quick programming note we will not be here on Thursday as I think during this particular point in time.

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I'll be driving from Philadelphia to somewhere in Well driving to Tom's River, I guess that's sort of in the middle of New Jersey someplace so no dividing line on Thursdays, but we

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Lord willing will be back again next Tuesday at our regular time here on the dividing line

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Just a couple thoughts about various sundry things. First of all, my apologies. I have not yet gotten up the

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Response that I want to post on a Jimmy Akins comments on James chapter 2 and the syntax of the

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Greek article there in James chapter 2 I was quite honestly a little bit surprised by what

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I read on on the blog there, but I guess I shouldn't be but we will be responding to that as soon as we possibly can

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Hopefully by this afternoon, but when you've got a short week and you got to get packed and everything else things just sort of Pile up on each other

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Yeah, you know, I I do need Somebody in channel should give me the weather forecast for say a

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Friday Highs and lows and Tom's River because something tells me I'm gonna catch back up with this front the cake through here and I should probably

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Bring some some warm clothes. I have a I have a feeling I don't know Well, we'll find out don't wanna don't want to forget about the fact that well, it was pretty cold here

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It got cold here. We had pipes pipes bursting Here in Phoenix, and that's pretty unusual for us.

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No two ways about it Yeah, that doesn't happen In fact, I don't think we'd had a hard freeze in at least five or six years since 1990 a hard freeze since that long

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Yeah, you're kidding. Yeah, I knew it had been and whether you see the thing is is that people back east don't understand How do you have pipes bursting?

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Being in the desert. We don't wrap our Our pipes we you know We bury our water lines two feet down in the ground as they come out from the street and then we run them through our attic

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Yeah, and they're not wrapped or anything like that. And so surprise surprise Yeah, no reason no reason to do anything like that.

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But yeah, it's It was Sunday morning was the coldest morning in 17 years in Phoenix.

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And so Hey, what can I say? Let's see Friday high is around 40 chance precipitation 30 % 40s, that's it got up to what was it 48 or somewhere?

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Hey, I'm wasting time Wanted to make some comments on the program About last

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Thursday and the result of last Thursday as you may recall

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I took about a half an hour and I played a few clips from the stop and think video and You know could be a tempest in a teapot type situation

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There's only a certain number of blogs and websites of people who would even openly

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Proclaim themselves to be reformed who comment on things and there was quite a lot of disagreement.

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I Felt a lot of disagreement that was based primarily Upon Assuming what you thought somebody else was saying and then responding to what you assumed they were saying

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I mean there are folks within what calls itself the broader reform community. Just just detest yours truly

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There's no two ways about it. And so it doesn't matter what I say, it's going to be taken You know They're gonna hear it in whatever way they want to hear it and and twist it whatever way they want to twist it and that's

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Just sort of the way things are and and I'm accustomed to that and and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used

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To that's that's for certain But you know, I I posted a few blog

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Articles I discussed a few things and in relationship to Especially the name that's the fact that it seems, you know, it's one thing we can all sit around go

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Dave hunts what love is this boy? That's pretty bad stuff but it almost seems like the the omnibenevolence viewpoint that he has of an

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Undifferentiated love of God that they can can in no way shape or form have any Distinctions to it it gets lost on On even folks who call themselves reformed when it comes to certain areas like the proclamation of the gospel now

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I don't know how many times I've said this Maybe I bet you algo knows we'll ask algo and channel because algo knows all things and I'll go knows

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Everything I've ever said when I said it and what tone of voice I use when I said it that's why he frightens me But I'll go probably can can count up for us.

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How many times I have said we Do not know the identity of the elect

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How many times in responding to to the canners and responding to various people speaking down at Johnny Hunt's Church?

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We turn the pulpit into an anti -calvinism seminar location How many times have

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I said the problem? With so much of this argumentation is we don't

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It assumes that we Calvinists claim to know who the elect are. We don't we don't know and So that explains why we

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Have all that experience in Salt Lake City and Mesa and standing along the what was that a creek?

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Was that Cherry Creek? Was that was that where you're down? It was what's actually the creek we were in or was that sort of I forget

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I think that was right alongside the creek It was down sure. Yeah, I was down in but we were there was another area

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So there's like a walkway right along right along the creek right along the edge of the creek But you almost had to climb down into it.

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It was really weird. Remember that that's everybody's walking through You know their way to mass on the way. Well to Cherry Creek Park where there's the good papal mass

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Yes, that's where they were going. So anyways, that was where rich and I were passing out tracks to the Roman Catholics There and we we didn't we had pictures and we were looking for those people.

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Yeah, well, that's right There's the elect and we're like, okay, is that one? No, not him. Don't give him the track.

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No, not him No, but isn't it good that we have gone so much farther now Then we did we could in 93 because now we have that special elect metal detector

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That's right And they just walk through that and if they're elected beeps and if they're not it doesn't and that that works so much better But then there are those who exercise free will and don't want to walk through the metal detector and well

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But that proves right then and there that they're not allowed to walk through the metal detector. So yes, we've got it all figured out

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We just don't know so we passed out tracks to everybody and and You know people

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They it's a matter of balance. It's a matter of balance It really really really really really really is a matter of maintaining some some balance here

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Obviously what seems to have missed by a lot of folks and I think we need to think about this We've got a problem in our nation look around especially at Look around the churches at the churches in general don't don't limit it too much

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But but look around it at churches that at least try to take the Bible seriously Brother Tom Askew has rather openly

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Stated that he views the the Southern Baptist Convention as an unregenerate denomination that our churches are filled with unregenerate people and And I think that's a very you know, as he said at our conference we've lost the gospel and I think that's a completely valid Observation to make

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I mean in how many churches can you seriously preach the whole counsel of God and not get yourself booted out?

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That tells you something that tells you something about the nature of the people that are in there. They are the religiously hypocritical they are there those who continue to bow the knee to self and Have had a a

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Christian layer of icing put on top of them, but that doesn't change the inside and How do you get churches filled with unregenerate people well

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You got to get them in there somehow and so you use these methodologies use these ways of getting them in there

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But if you don't challenge their sinful rebellion you end up with the church filled with sinful rebels who now think and now they're even worse because now they think they're right with God because you have given them this promise that If they would walk down a certain aisle shake a hand do a certain thing, you know fell out a card, whatever

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Boom, they've got their ticket punched her on the way to heaven I've really been thinking I think that the utter heresy and I I don't pull any punches anymore

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Especially after my experience with with Bob Wilkin in 2005 It's it's it's simple heresy the the heresy of the the cheap gracers

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Who actually believe that God has no purpose in salvation none whatsoever he's just there as the as the celestial ticket puncher and he punches your ticket and You're going to heaven and now he could care less about the rest of your life

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He doesn't he has no purpose and conforming into the image of Christ Nothing like that at all. I think that heresy has had a significantly wider impact than most people think that it has

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Because there is this there is this This idea that well, hey as long as it works

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Isn't it better that it works? Well, is it working if it is is your methodology working if it fills your church with unregenerate people?

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now Again, there's a balance here because everybody can go look back in time and you can look back to it

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Let's look back to Spurgeon's Day. Let's look back to England. I mentioned this in the dividing line before I was there in I think

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February of last year and I was speaking in London and so many of the questions came about hyper

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Calvinism about hyper Calvinistic churches and People whose experience was coming out of these hyper

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Calvinism churches They can have no assurance their salvation all the rest of stuff and I was a little bit taken aback by that because that's just not our experience here but it certainly was over there and it certainly was in the past and you can have people who become so again and balance the other direction that You somehow have to demonstrate an absolute perfection of salvation

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You have to be able to quote the entirety of 14 catechisms before you can ever get to the door of the church

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And so you end up with with nothing Well, that isn't our problem here

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Okay, and I think one of the things gotten lost here is that societies change context change everybody's talking about well

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It's it's a that video is a wonderful contextual a contextualization of the gospel message You know and the surfing and the

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California thing and and so on so forth. Okay, let's really contextualize for a moment What is the greater danger in Western society today?

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Filling churches unregenerate people because you have presented a God who's basically your buddy or The dangers of the hyper

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Calvinism that we were just talking about I Mean think about our society for a moment Think about what has changed all the biblical paradigms of royalty of Lordship We live in the

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United States and everybody's equal. See I've got my rights and God better Keep in mind the

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Bill of Rights around here. I Mean the idea of me being clay and he's the

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Potter. Oh, no no, no egalitarianism all the way not just men and women but but God gets in on this too and We may allow him to run around and play with stars and stuff

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We really don't believe it as that because there's natural processes and and we're good naturalist materialists when we really when you really start getting

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Down to push and shove we've we've imbibed so much of the society there were good naturalist materialist God's just sort of overseeing these natural processes.

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He got him started He clicked his fingers did the Big Bang and now he's just sort of you know doing his thing

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He's not really overly involved with stuff and but we'll let him do those things out there. But when it comes to man Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't we don't want a creator like that We don't want a creator who's actively involved in human experience can't have that so We want a

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God and and this is this is the main part that just of the video that just just made me want to Hide under chairs in place we want a

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God who's actually able to get down on one knee and And beg us for a relationship

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Beg us for a relationship, that's he's he's desperate man. He just you just oh, please accept me

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I mean, we've got folks running around right now. They're trying to find they're doing Google searches and PDF searches and everything else for the word beg just to try to find some place where say it's okay to be a

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Calvinist and say God begs you for a relationship The problem is all those citations as one particular person.

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I'm thinking of has found aren't in the modern context They're in a context where people still understood the idea of royalty and power and Sovereignty and we're not in that context.

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We're in a humanistic context we're in a context where people think that they can make God our size and That God has to well in essence respect my rights we live in a humanistic post -christian society folks and When you put

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God on one knee begging for you to marry him Not even the right paradigm there.

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That's the church. Anyways proposals and and marrying and all the rest of stuff. That's a church We we've got this individualistic

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Western society focused upon man and you put God down his knee and I'm sorry That's not what you're supposed to be doing and I can't imagine that there is anyone who would who would

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You know object to this from who claims to be reformed in any way shape or form

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We've got to remember the cultural context in which we're dealing with these things Because that's not the cultural context that existed even a hundred and fifty years before people understood who

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Lords were They understood where their position in society was we don't have that anymore and so all those elements of the biblical that those are gone and So that's why we have to emphasize these things

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That's why we have to be careful about these things or we're gonna end up presenting a God who's just really overjoyed

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To have you on his team And that ends up explaining what so many of our churches end up looking like today, you know when

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Where how do you put together? The the fact that the P you say to say people.

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Well, what do you say then to people? What do you say and you wouldn't see cry to God for mercy?

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Cry to God for mercy If you don't think that would be something in Spurgeon would have said you haven't read much

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Spurgeon cry to God for mercy That's not the same thing is stop and think and you know

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God's on his knees in front of you going, please have a relationship with me. Look at all

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I've done for you Half coming. Come on, man. Be nice. Look at all that God's done for you

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Be nice to God That's not the same thing as cry to God for mercy

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Because to cry to God for mercy means you're at the end of your rope. You don't have anything left You have you you have been emptied of everything.

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You see your absolute guilt before God You've been broken and you cry to God for mercy.

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I Don't see that as the same thing as add God to your vitamins so you can have a better life

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Now one more comment along those lines don't Don't make a massive mistake here

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Everybody jumps the idea. Oh You're attacking pastor Chan.

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No, I'm not It could have been an actor in that thing. I don't care I'm talking about one presentation

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You say well, you're taking out of context everything else he does and his ministry I'm not the one that spent

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I don't know how much money which no one's even mentioned that putting together this video

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Okay I The problem we have today is that we can't disagree with a position or a statement without People automatically thinking that we're trying to be mean to a person

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This is the same thing I've complained about over and over again with people like Dave Hunt though. They with historical

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Individuals early church fathers. They'll find something they don't like Something they consider heretical and for someone like Dave Hunt it could be you know, not being a dispensational premillennialist

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Which would pretty much make everybody up until the 1800s a raving here do you want to make them that and You can go after him on that basis and therefore you can just dismiss everything that they ever said

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That's that that is irrational and that's not what I'm doing. I Would like to think that the illustrations

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I've talked about the examples I've talked about in the video are just simply an aberration That they're they're not a consistency but at the same time, let's face it if they are an aberration in this context

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They're not an aberration in the broader evangelical context United States today This is what a lot of people a lot of people are getting the idea

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But what Christians are saying is man God is so desperate to have a relationship with you that he's on one knee begging you

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Instead of God commands men everywhere to repent cry out for mercy you know and I just I I see a

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Contradiction between that kind of a statement and the earlier statement of video about God's wrath and judgment and his law and stuff like that You know and even though the law had already been sort of I don't know turned into the suggestions

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Hey, you know if you don't kill each other, you'll have a better life. No, you don't kill each other cuz God says not to He's your creator life is sacred.

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It's it's you know, I don't see those two is quite fitting real Well, but be it as it may at least something was said about God's wrath and God's holiness earlier on But it doesn't seem to fit real well with the later presentation.

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So I just wish we could have you know discussions about this without all the

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Personality stuff and this person said this and this person said that and that It's I think the most disappointing thing has just been how?

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How there's been almost no meaningful conversation it's all been knee -jerk reactions and and and taking sides and Lobbing bombs this way in that way and it's in and I I've mentioned this in in channel.

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I Think honestly honestly that there should be about one 100th the number of blogs that allow for comments as there are

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I Am officially launching the anti blog comments movement now everybody knows

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I don't have any and I Cannot even begin to imagine what my comment section would look like on a regular basis

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Can you imagine? the the Muslims and the Mormons and the

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King James only us and the Jehovah's Witnesses and the oneness Pentecostals and and the atheists

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Along with the radical Arminians who would all be jumping on no matter what was said Action, let's let's face it

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If you want to say something on the internet There is nobody who can't go out and get himself a blog, right?

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I mean how long is it to say to set up a blog you go to blogspot .com and and what you know five minutes most if you're a slow typist and So if you want to go and and tell the whole world what you think then get your own blog

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No one's stopping you The fact matter is what you end up having in comments is a bunch of folks who have blogs

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But nobody reads them and so they go the blogs of people that actually you want you go you know,

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I'd like to know what that person has to say and so you create your blog role and ever and you go on these blogs and It's people trolling for more blog traffic to their own in essence in many instances but it really becomes the place where you just simply

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Concentrate the ignorance of the Internet and theological subjects and there is a massive amount of ignorance in the

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Internet on theological subjects let me tell you that and Then throw in the problem of anonymity.

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No one can see you you can hide behind your keyboard and It's it's it's like, you know leaving open containers of gasoline around guess what's gonna happen over time boom you know like End of the last episode of 24 boom

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Boom boom boom very big boom. So I really think that especially in the theological realm there there there should probably be something along the lines of You know either limiting who can comment to people who have demonstrated a capacity to do so over time or or you know from my perspective

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My RSS reader doesn't even show comments. I Mean if I want to know what somebody says my

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RSS reader tells me I don't care about the comments. I I'm sorry, if I wanted to know what those folks said

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I'd go read what they had to say But I there's only so much time in a day to do what you need to do and how many decent discussions have been sidetracked

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By the comments section. They've just been blown up torpedoed So I'm starting the end of comments movement and Obviously, I am the president of the movement because I've never had them

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What boycott them boycott them? I don't know. We're boycotting comments. Oh, well, we've always boycotting

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See, there you go starting the end of comments boycott. Yeah, but we've always done that now. I'm just inviting everybody else to join.

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I Mean the Calvinist gadfly did it but that's because he only he doesn't have enough time to keep up with it But now I'd want it to become a conviction on his part because he's listening right now

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Anyway, so so anyways, there's just some some of the thoughts that I've got on that stuff because it just it's been amazing to me

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Over the weekend. I did have one comment about is The idea are you a commenter on on my?

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Right now at the moment. Yes Do you feel any inconsistency here?

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No, I don't Is that because you have control of all the knobs and control I control the vertical and the horizontal

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But the idea that the mental picture of Christ bowing or bending his knee to beg us and you you talk about crying for mercy and It just flies utterly opposite of what the gospel really is in the fact that it is to be as Philippians 2 10 tells us

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Every knee shall bow before him. It is our knee that is to be bowing before him begging him for mercy

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He doesn't beg us. We are to be big. Oh, but there have been a few there's there's two or three citations

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You can find where someone has used the word beg now, of course is a completely different context But yeah,

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I am fully in agreement and that's that was my whole point every knee will bow and every time confess Christ the

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Lord well That comes later see once once you see once you get him in with the nice picture of Jesus bowing before them

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Then maybe you can teach him over time and then maybe someday They'll bow the knee in reverse.

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Now, of course what that means is what you're teaching him is what you got him in with was a lie And I guess some folks don't have any problem with that as long as it works as long as we are pragmatic then that's okay now a

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Lot of you're going. Oh, you're being mean to somebody. No, I don't actually I wasn't I had in all my comments just now

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I was the only thing about one person When I was thinking about anybody at all most of time I didn't have any particular individual in mind if you're sitting here going

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Well, I think that was written to that person and now he's got that and that not get off that stuff just listen to what

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I'm saying in general and Forget the politics that I'm not a politician If if I was in politics would be the world's worst politician.

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No two ways about it. I don't do the Alliance's thing I don't do the you know Like I said in my blog and I mean this seriously and this is this is me

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This makes me very unpopular with a lot of people believe me. I know I'll you'll never see me up there with the big guys because I've ruined any chances of ever doing that because I Refuse to take this filter and put it between me and this microphone in front of me or me and my fingers and on the blog and Sit here and go, okay if I'm gonna say this

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All right now I've got to think about what this groups gonna say and this group and this ministry over here and that individual and that author

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And this preacher and and I've got to run it through all these things and and by the time you run The truth through all those filters.

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There's not much left of it and to be honest I'm just not smart enough I'm just not smart enough

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To do that kind of stuff. I'm just not sorry. Don't don't have the

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The capacity just don't have it. So there you go eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and I'm afraid

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We we have some calls, but I know that the one's gonna take quite some some time to Cover and I doubt you're gonna be able to do the break -in for another a minute and a half or so And pray right there.

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Okay. All right, so I'm gonna I'm gonna take the second call first. See if we can Squeeze it in here. Let's Let's talk to Medford.

27:24

Hi Medford. Hi. Hi, what's up? Hi. How are you? I'm good. Am I the right?

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This is dr. White, right? Uh -huh. I'm sorry. I didn't realize I just have a question I have had my first real experience with some

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Jehovah's Witnesses lately recently and I talked to them and Afterwards I felt like you know, it went really really well except for the man yelled at me

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But his wife stayed and talked for about five minutes, which is very nice But anyway afterwards I was looking through your website and I didn't see that you had any

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Thing that specifically addressed Jehovah's Witnesses. Am I overlooking a book? I have your King James only

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I have your you know, there's there's an entire section called Jehovah's Witnesses on the website No, there's no reason for me to write a book on Jehovah's Witnesses because I don't

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I don't write books that someone else has already written Okay, anything that I have

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Relevant to say that I have either said on on the blog in the debate with Greg Stafford or in the

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Forgotten Trinity There are excellent works on the subject of Jehovah's Witnesses already out by folks like Dwayne Mignogny and So there's no reason for me to be writing books that people have already written.

28:45

The Watchtower files was real good What do you think of John Ankerberg's book

28:51

I don't I don't have it I I Try to read specialists in the field. And so I'm Forgetting the name off top my head right now of the other individual

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We have carried his books in the past on on the witnesses. I'd have to look but Dwayne Mignogny and then there's somebody else that the name is escaping me at the moment, but there are there are

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Like I said works by specialists that are that are the best and I don't

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It's a Mignogny would be the one to look up. Yeah, there's another one And I just right now can't can't think of the name, okay.

29:30

All right. Can I ask you one other thing real quickly? Yeah, just very quickly. I've noticed recently on Flipping through the channel of a lady named

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Melissa Scott and she does a lot of various languages on I don't know if you know who

29:46

I'm talking about. Nope. Never heard her. Okay. All right Well, then I won't pick up anymore. Okay. No, I'd be what kind of a channel.

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Are you flipping? She's on a religious station and I don't know if you've ever why I've just been flipping through the next time you're flipping through the channels

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Just watch for a lady who? Is going into not only the Greek but the Syriac the every language you can imagine.

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She seems to be a pretty Pretty good as far as languages go, but her theology is is

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Not well that explains why she's going into Syriac The only reason that anyone would ever need to go into Syriac and teaching

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Is to refute a specific assertion made for example, I was reading Craig Evans book on on Jesus last night and Not reformulating

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Jesus, but we can not reconstructing Jesus either. I can't remember anything today. Anyway, I was reading his book and he was responding specifically to a couple of extra biblical

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Gospels and the claims by people like John dominant cross and that those are very very early and So as a result

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He had to deal with Coptic Syriac Especially in regards to the Gospel of Thomas and where it possibly came from and linguistic stuff

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That's the only reason you would ever need to get in and anything like that The only other reason someone would do that Is that they have a heresy that they're trying to promote they can't do it out of the

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Greek in the Hebrews They have to come up with something else as if it's somehow relevant and that way you prey upon ignorant people who are looking for A reason to disbelieve and that really is how it works.

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Her name is pastor. Melissa Scott. Well, there's a problem right there Well, I know that I that was not even that it's

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Jean Scott's widow. Yes, it is It's yeah, so it's just a carbon copy of Jean Scott. Now, there you go

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And I have a I have a hard time. She's probably just repeating the the lunacy that he put out So she is and I didn't know if you knew any more about her

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But obviously, you know a little bit and enough to know that that's probably what she's saying. Isn't isn't really? Alrighty, okay.

31:46

Thank you, sir Okay Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

31:52

We'll be back after our break Right here on the dividing line the history of the

32:19

Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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35:29

And welcome back to the dividing line two things David Reed is the name

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I was not able to think of there his writings on the Watchtower Society Very good,

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I recommend those and then yeah pastor Melissa Scott Looks like his his granddaughter actually to be honest with you.

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She looks like she's about 40 years younger than him, but Anyways, yeah, and she's got a little backwards collar thing going and yeah.

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Okay. Well, like I said there's Lot of stuff run around.

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Yes, but does she have funny glasses and a big cigar? That's the question. I Think I don't see the cigar thing going on here.

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That's which is which is good. It's best that they're not Oh Jean smoked him until there was no tomorrow I used to run by there on my satellite and every now and then just kind of sit and watch and go.

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Oh my You know three guys stand there wearing two or three pairs of glasses one on top of the other and he always weared some funny looking hat

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Okay, oh cigars and preach. There you go. Nothing like drawing attention to yourself. Anyways, let's let's

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Get back to the to the phone calls here and let's talk with Jim. Hi Jim.

36:41

Hi, dr. White. How you doing? Good Hey a question for you on John chapter 6 and John 12

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What do you what do you do with? Armenians, you know like a ultra dispensationalist like Lawrence Vance who basically disqualify, you know

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The drawing in John 6 due to John 1232 where they make it a universal thing starting after the cross

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Well that particular argument is is probably the most common idea now the the

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The use of John 12 is extremely common limiting it to some dispensational concept is is a little bit more unusual, but there are a number of people who do that in regards to Trying to say well all that we're talking about in John 6 has to do with Jews Doesn't have to do with the

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Gentiles doesn't have to do with you today, etc, etc and it's another wonderful example of the the

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Isagetical leaps to which people will go for a number of reasons first of all

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To even go to John 12 to interpret John 6 is to mean that what Jesus was saying in John 6 could not have been

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Understandable to anybody that he was talking to at the time to say further that John 6 Is no longer relevant now

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Would also mean that John 3 is no longer relevant now, and in fact basically To go that direction to be consistent.

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You'd sort of have to go with the hyper dis B's who End up with just Paul's writings because you can't tell what in the

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Gospels is actually Relevant once the church age gets gets going The church has rightfully.

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Well, first of all that that whole concept did not develop until very very very very late and if Eighteen hundred years of church history passed on anybody coming up with that.

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That's probably a fairly decent Indication that that is not what the original writers could have even begun to understand or intend in their writings

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But beyond that beyond just taking wild Overarching concepts and saying well, you know if it's in the

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Gospels, it's not about the church and therefore we're not gonna worry about it To the more sober -minded person you recognize that what

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Jesus is addressing in John 6 is the unbelief of these individuals right in front of him and He is in the synagogue

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Capernaum. And so yes, these would be Jewish individuals. There's no question about that, but what he says is

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Consistent with what Paul says about salvation itself And so when you give that consideration and allow the text to speak for itself

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What is said in John chapter 6 about eternal life about unbelief the reasons for unbelief

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That's not just the reasons for Jewish unbelief these there's there's nowhere Does it say you are the children of Abraham and therefore you have done

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X Y or Z? instead Jesus speaks in very generic terms when he talks about the unbelief of those who have heard his preaching who are staying right in front of him and explains

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Why they have unbelief is because they have not been given by the father to the son and that he will

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Never cast out those that the father has given to him and so on and so forth these become foundational

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Christological and soteriological assertions that it is sad to see our minions Attempt to get rid of these things just simply because it doesn't fit within their concept of free will so, you know

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Maybe there's some of that there's a I've wanted to recently make some comments

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About the book why I'm not a Calvinist by Jerry Walls and Joseph dongle This particular guy is getting a lot from that book.

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Yeah. Yeah, and his comments on John 6 are are Their comments.

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I'm sorry on John 6 or Again, it amazes me when I see entire books

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Written that pretend to address this issue and they can they can handle texts like John 6 in less than than One physical page both sides, you know when you do that you've you've missed the boat in my personal opinion, but Page 74 of the walls dongle book

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But the Calvinist reading likewise fails to account fully for the context. So they they want to it's it's interesting

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They'll very frequently say well the context of John 6 is actually John 5. Well, okay I mean you could say all of John is the context

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John 6 depending on how wide you want to make your context But the immediate context of the key text in John 6 is but I say to you

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You are not believing you are unbelievers. These are people seeking after Jesus He says you're unbelievers and the rest explains that that almost

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I can't think of almost anybody now Trying to go through the many many many many many interpretations of John 6 that I've examined

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I can't think of anybody who actually honestly deals with that that that part just gets completely lost instead That's what this is what they do here.

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Let me go ahead and read it But the Calvinist reading likewise fails to account fully for the context Jesus is locked in strenuous debate with religious leaders who claim special knowledge of and standing with God from this privileged position

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They seek to discredit Jesus completely their implied charge essentially involves an attempt to sever Jesus from God affirming the latter while rejecting the former in doing this they wish to establish the right to claim

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We know God intimately, but you are utterly alien to us. We stand in right relationship to God, but we completely reject you end quote well, there's an element of truth to that they clearly claim to be the

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Standing in the in the in the tradition of Moses. They clearly are seen by the people as being the the recipients of divine tradition in a sense and So yeah, they're they're seen in that way and Jesus has to deal with those those errors all along But that's not the only thing that's that's under discussion here.

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They are rejecting His claim to have that relationship with the father and he is continually

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Recognizing and exposing the fact that they don't actually love the father Because they don't love him

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Jesus counter charge strikes directly at the root of their authority The presumption that they knew God in the first place you have never heard his voice nor seen his form nor does his word dwell

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On you John 5 37 38 far from knowing God them Jesus's opponents had already rejected

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Not only the testimony of John the Baptist, but also of Moses if you believe Moses you believe me He wrote about me

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But since you do not believe what he wrote how you're going to believe what I say John 5 46 in this question Posed by Jesus we discover the key principle

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Rejecting God's first first offerings of truth will utterly block further illumination

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Now the problem with that is everyone who ends ends up following Jesus many of them had blocked quote -unquote rejected

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God's first offerings of truth, but you can you can see the presupposition of libertarianism and and and a denial of total depravity here

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But here you hear here comes the overarching theme That's going to be used to get around the specific exegesis the text

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God will not offer more truth or manifest his full glory the eternal son while light at hand is being spurned

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I would point out that God has revealed himself in all of creation and yet he then reveals himself in Christ That's our hard to follow in other words in other words

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We can't actively reject the father at the same time have any chance of accepting the son. Well, that's a truism in of itself

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There's no question about that since the father and son are one in nature character and mission the rejection of one necessarily involves a rejection of The other the fundamental issue of this passage is not that of predestination

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But of Christology and the unity of the father and the son I would say the error they make here is to just distinguish between the two in the first place in the sense that yes

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There is no question that the text in John 5 Involves Christology the text in John 6 involves

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Christology 7 Christology 8 Christology 9 Christology All of that is true. But since all those texts also address faith

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Salvation wrath forgiveness and everything else then the point is that your Christology cannot be separated from your soteriology

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You can't have a false Jesus and have true faith in God. No question about that But to say that issues like predestination

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Explaining unbelief are not there because you're talking about Christology completely unwarranted.

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It's a in essence a means of trying to Bypass the actual text here the

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Jewish opponents inability to come to Jesus did not lie then and the hidden eternal plan of God But in their own track record of trampling prior light of having already denied

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God himself and spurned God's corrective punishment now I stop right there and go wait a minute Professors gentlemen, where's the exegesis you just jumped from John 5?

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you made some semi true statements about some overarching concepts and now you've jumped into into sex and you've made a

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Concluding statement about what the text is and is not saying but the text itself has never even been touched

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It hasn't even been exegeted You haven't even tried to follow The flow of the text from beginning to end in this context at all

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This is the standard type of Arminian stuff. This is I mean this book I'm holding here is recommended by Paul Owen is containing great exegesis

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There's almost no exegesis in it to be had so Can it continues had they received

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Moses fully thereby coming to know the father to the degree possible at the time? They would have already been have belonged to the father's flock and the father would have drawn them to the son

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And the biblical foundation of this is the scriptural words proving this are and Nothing's given.

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It's just again. We can't derive Arminian ism from this text so we're gonna go back to John 5 make some overarching statements come to a concluding statement and then take the concluding statement and use that as Explanation of all of John 6 and basically hope no one notices in the process

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So you have this father's flock and that it's the father's flock and who is in the father's flock

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Well, whoever chooses to be that we know we want to have free will here It's it's all about free will so they're in the father's flock and the father would have drawn them to the son

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But in rejecting Jesus that demonstrated that they had never surrendered to God in the first place That they had set their faces like flint against all those continued overtures since they did not belong to the father's own flock

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They would not be part of the transfer of sheep Already trusting the father into the fold of the

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Son John 6 37 39. There's the key There's the the the eisegetical

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Flipping of the text on its head is well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna find a way to make all of these sheep

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Sheep that have chosen their shepherd by getting to know Moses. Okay, they followed Moses. So these are good people

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These are the good folks who have have put themselves by their own free will actions and the goodness of their hearts

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They follow the father. So they're in the father's flock. And so now it's the father's flock.

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He gives them the son and So people say well see well, how could the father give anybody to the son?

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How were they his to begin with and the amazing thing is the Arminian says because they chose to be in other words

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It's man's Autonomous choice that enables God to then dispose of men to give them to the son and that the son then becomes their perfect Savior fully man -centered

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Completely disconnected from the text you would never get that by actually reading the text and just Actually following it and getting your conclusions from the text

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But that's the very nature of Arminian ism is you take overarching concepts? all wedded to a particular view of libertarian free will and Then you do to the text whatever you need to do the text to make it fit into your overarching concepts.

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And that's what Walls and dongle do and then that's what people on the internet are now doing there

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They're pulling this out and they're saying see this is this is how you get around it And they they'll jump and the the way to detect this is in reading their stuff you will see that they don't start at a certain point in John 6 and Work through the text and follow the logic and follow the argument and allow the text to define its own terms and talk about grammar

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No, they won't even get close to that What they will do is they will make a statement then they will jump around the text and and follow their follow their citations

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Almost always they'll go to 40 45 read it back into 37. They'll be they'll be reversing the actual order

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Because they're not actually concerned about what the text says they're concerned about defending their position and so they'll jump down to 45 see these these people learned from the father and Therefore since they learned from the father they they put themselves in the father's flock and and that's why the father gives them to them completely missing the fact that John 645 is a restatement of 644 and that learning there it is not well

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They chose to learn the father was just teaching everybody He taught everybody equally and these are the ones who chose to learn that is such a gross

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Misreading of John 645 that it's it's sad to me to actually see people who claim to to have some kind of exegetical capacity

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Making that kind of statement, but it's the kind of statement they make all the time 645 is actually a repetition of the same concept in 644 and the teaching there is divine in nature.

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It is it is in fact the very mechanism. It's the the way that Jesus expresses a

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Restatement of that drawing is that the father teaches he reveals he is the source of this is the divine action

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It's not some something where God is just sort of throwing this out and and we choose whether we're going to accept it or reject

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There's something along those lines He quotes from the prophets as it is written the prophets and they shall all be taught of God Who is the day the day is those who have been given by the father to the son?

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We turn that around say they are the ones who choose to be in the father's flock It's just amazing everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me

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Well, who is that those who were drawn by the father to the son the proof in preceding verse only by just tearing the text up Ignoring the fact that all of us would be offended

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If our words were treated this way if we were the ones where people were Taking if someone took something

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I wrote and go they went to the end of the paragraph and then they read that back into a

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Preceding portion of the paragraph so as to make it self -contradictory to turn my intention on said I would be upset with him

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But that's what people do to John chapter 6 None of these people could ever sit down and start back at the beginning of John chapter 6 verse 1.

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Let's start here Let's walk through the text. Let's define these things. Let's let's let's not no jumping ahead

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Here we go. And as soon as you try to force somebody to do that what they go is well I don't think that any one text of Scripture has everything that God wants

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We need to look at all these other things and they'll immediately run off to John 12 or a run -off to you know

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Whatever their favorite to proof text might be but they can't walk through the text. They can't deal with it itself

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This particular guy that I'm working with. He seems to attach a lot of significance to the father drawing in John 6

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Whereas the son is doing the drawing in John 12, how would you handle that? How would you address that?

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well, I think you need to recognize there's a there's that there's two completely different contexts between John 6 and John 12 and if someone is going to Say well, we need to look at these as if they are together with the you know

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The exact the word means exact same thing same context prove it prove it. Just ask him

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Okay, can you demonstrate and see the sad thing is so many of these people they've never been taught to do meaningful exegesis

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They've they've never been taught They've never been put in a position where they actually have to defend what they're stating in any meaningful fashion and so they they play with the

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Bible like it's Play -doh like it's it's just something you can form and and you can take a Snippet here and a snippet there if you're going to say that the drawing of John 6 which is by the father

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Its object is drawing individuals to the son who will be raised up on the last day is

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The exact same meaning of the Greek term found in John 12 Which in that context is the

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Greeks coming to Jesus Jesus does not show himself to the Greeks He hides himself from them his hour had not yet come.

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This is Jews Gentiles and This is very very clear right before the personal ministry to the disciples starting in John 13

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John 12 He does not reveal himself to the Greeks his hour has not yet come that time is coming

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But they has our has not yet come He doesn't reveal himself to the Greeks and instead when he says if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself the lifting up is in the crucifixion and The crucifixion then the all men

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Jews and Gentiles this has to do with the means by which salvation is going to take place

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But to try to say well, well, he's talking about the exact same thing no, I mean does the cross

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Naturally draw every single individual. I mean, how are you even using the word draw here?

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How can you say that it's the same thing especially in light of the fact that's in John chapter 6

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The result of this drawing is the raising up the raising up the scene verse 45 the raising up That was seen previously in the preceding section before the

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Jews start grumbling and so on and so forth If you're gonna allow the text to define these terms rather than just ignoring those things

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Then you're gonna have to see that this drawing by the Father to the Son is Effective the statement

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John 12 is Jesus is going to save Jews and Gentiles. It's not the same context

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So to say well all words must mean the exact same thing is to is to make language

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Something that's that's nothing more than silly putty and there's no one who could seriously take that as having any meaning to it

54:47

Excellent, thank you. Dr. Wright. You're most welcome. Okay, but Yeah, I I knew which

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Websites he was referring to there because the Calvinist gadfly had told me about that. So I had them up.

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It's a website examining Calvinism calm and It's a section on John 6 and John 6

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John 6 37 John 6 44 Excellent examples of utter isogenesis how to turn the text on its head

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And I'm sure the gentleman probably thinks that these you know, what he's offering here is is good solid biblical argumentation, but Am I stating something that is really really really really really obvious when

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I say? The Internet is filled with a tremendous amount of really lousy theology you know at least

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You know back a number of decades you sort of had to convince somebody that you had something meaningful to say you had some skills

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You had some ability to handle the text before your books would be published unless you wanted to have the money to publish them

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Yourselves now it takes nothing All you all you needs a computer and a modem

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Member modems, I remember first my first modem was 1200, but I did get a 300 later on I had a 300 later on but that old

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Radio Shack laptop. You could actually see the the characters coming across the screen But anyways anybody with a computer modem can now basically demonstrate that they really don't know what they're talking about all across the whole world and it's it's sad, but you know,

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I and I Believe me. I I feel the weight of this tremendously for myself every idle word and Will be judged and I think that's not only what is said

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And I say a lot. I talk a lot have to that's part of my part of my work But also,

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I think that's going to include what you type and what you post and what you put out there and People seem to think well, this is you know, this isn't gonna be judged the same way as what

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I speak no, I I think it all it all goes together and We might want to give some serious consideration to that Again program reminder if you just now turn

57:00

Tuning in no one tunes. I mean do you tune a web a web browser? You don't tune a web browser

57:06

It's it's like when we talk about taping something we're not using tape. They're net tuning net tuning. Let's see

57:11

That's that's that's it. That's equivocation of the of the term tune to tune remember remember those old radios

57:17

We used to have that weren't digital and you had to sort of turn a little bit turn a little in fact when you're in Car if you turn north you had to like retune your your am station because you start losing it

57:28

Come on, you're older than I am. Don't don't give me that blank stare. You lived in Prescott Did you just not have radio up there or just what?

57:36

It's net tuning. Yeah net tuning. Yeah, fine, whatever Anyhow, we're changing the meaning of words, you know, well, what's the meaning of the word stretch?

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I didn't know that Here I am a professional broadcaster in Europe. You're explaining all of my secrets here.

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What is that? my Goodness people are gonna think that we were actually just trying to fill that last 30 seconds there.

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It's terrible Anyway, I what I was seriously trying to say was we're not gonna be here on Thursday Looking forward to meeting all the folks in Tom's River and we will be back again next

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Tuesday here on the dividing line We'll see you then God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:34

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