Road Trip DL: New Plans, Greear on the Church's Failure, Fesko against Van Til, Preview of RFG

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00:38

There you go, greetings and welcome Greetings and welcome to the dividing line obviously a road trip dividing line.

00:46

I am somewhere in Texas I am at a park that I have never been to before so Really nice folks nice folks in Texas and it's sort of cloudy day and it's breezy and about 70 72 degrees

01:01

I thought it was gonna be this really really really cold trip But so far

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Of course, I shouldn't say anything about that, huh? Because I still got a long ways to go. So let's Not worry about that.

01:14

Let's let's just see how How things go? so far so good on the trip and We'll be in Houston tomorrow

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Plan to have dinner with some folks tomorrow evening and then Wednesday evening I know

01:29

Wednesday evening some folks still have Wednesday evening services. I get that Nothing we can do about that, but Wednesday evening 7 o 'clock

01:38

Central Time, I believe We have the debate with Keith Giles on what is marriage and I think that's gonna be useful for a lot of folks

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I've said many times that I think the Lord forced me to go to Fuller Theological Seminary He used a

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Complete lack of funding to do anything else I had seriously looked at going to Golden Gate after I graduated from Grand Canyon College and we had gone up there and then lo and behold found out

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Kelly was pregnant with Josh and Wasn't wasn't gonna happen

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So the only game in town in Phoenix honestly, the Phoenix Seminary hadn't started yet the only game in town when

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I when I started seminary was Fuller and they would fly professors in or they used professors from Grand Canyon College, which is where I had gone and Which was helpful for me, obviously, but I did have many professors that were way way way to my left and That way

02:48

I I learned Back then we called liberal theology. That's really not the best terminology.

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I think Today, it's called progressivist. But that's not that's Completely it's regressivist

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Theology, but anyway, I just see so many people reacting so strongly

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To progressivists online and It that's just a function of the fact that we tend to only be in our own communities and so when someone comes along and they are

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Way well be off the left way off to the left of us. It just sounds like how could you even believe that well

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It's important to understand why people believe that and so I'm really hoping that Keith Giles is a completely deconstructed former

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Southern Baptist Who I don't really think holds any orthodox

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Christian beliefs any longer at all Oh, he'll use the language, but if you listen carefully you discover it's something completely different and I'm really hoping that it'll be useful aside from being helpful in dealing with the subject of marriage in our day and So that's

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Wednesday night should be seven o 'clock. I believe It will be webcast and obviously we'll have the link at a omen org

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We'll put it out on our on the app and do things like that It's the same church that and man, it's really close time wise to when did we do?

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When did we do the debate Last year in February wouldn't have been this early in February Or was it before then?

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I don't know. It was in February at some point and So, oh

04:47

Okay, well, thank you DMW P I was looking for some information

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We're gonna look at we're gonna look at a video only the first part of it because it it is designed for Radio Free Geneva But I was asking about one of the guys in the in the group they were answering questions a guy named

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Brett Bartlett and So I'm getting some information right now coming coming across the teletype.

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Well, I'm not sure if you can see it Doesn't work that way It's up in Michigan, unfortunately, but man

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I'd be I'd be willing to go into a a You know up in the

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Midwest there Would love to see if a man like that would be willing to back up what he says in debate that would be

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That would be really really really interesting You'll see when I play portions of the

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Material it's pretty crazy stuff So and then also keep in mind a week from Friday Where is it

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Saturday? We will be having the debate with dr. Thomas Ross where I'll be defending the thesis the

06:05

Legacy Standard Bible is superior to the King James Version of the Bible and you know, why not?

06:11

Um The the King James translators would be on my side and they would agree Because legacy standard

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Bible has continued to do the very things the King James translators said to do the way the

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King James translators said to do it and So I will be defending that thesis and That'll be interesting and then don't forget

06:33

April 1st the debate can you have ethics and morality without God I Started listening to one of our opponents while driving yesterday

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It's gonna be an interesting Very very received Jeff Durbin.

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I versus two gentlemen on this subject. This fellow is a former Mormon And I feel sorry for him.

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I mean if you're raised in Mormonism, in fact, his story is fascinating come to think of it he

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The The last paper he wrote as a Mormon before he moved to Chapel Hill and started doing graduate work there and Completely stopped believing anything as far as anything supernatural was in defense of Joseph Smith And then you know who he stayed under at Chapel Hill, you know

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Bart Ehrman and He he really is a symbol

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I think of what's going on in Mormonism because the the biggest mistake

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That Mormonism ever made by its leaders was whoever decided amongst the

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Apostles in the 70 and so on and so forth To start sending their best and their brightest out to you know outside of BYU outside of Utah to get their

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PhDs someplace else to to raise the Scholarly acumen of the

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Mormon Church they didn't realize they were taking they were putting a mainline right into an artery of Mormonism and Injecting it with cyanide

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Because Joseph Smith cannot survive Any kind of critical examination at all

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So I felt sorry for the guy You know if you're a former

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Mormon and you find out, you know Mormonism is a great lie than he did what the vast majority of everybody did you throw all of Christianity away along with it and So he um, he has created his own pantheon

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And actually praise to these Deities he's created though.

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He doesn't believe they exist in reality. It helps the chemistry of his mind and it's

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Yeah, it's it's gonna be interesting it's gonna I Don't think there'll be any antifreeze involved.

09:08

I hope there will not be any antifreeze involved This time we're out

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I'm I'm actually opened Maybe we could put into the debate agreement that both sides will open whatever bags they bring

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For examination to see if there are any automotive fluids contained therein

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Because we don't if you've not seen that one you've missed it, but that's as all there is to it So I'm looking forward to teaming up with With the ninja again on on April 1st, that'll be that'll be really really really really interesting so There you go.

09:50

All right. I have a bunch of stuff here and Which one do

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I want to go with first here? I think I'll go with this one first I think more people have a broader interest in this.

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I'm all you go audio rich I'm not gonna try to screen share and do all the rest that stuff by the way, by the way before I do this

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Rich and I have been talking and I've been

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I have a lot of time to think While While driving across the highways and byways of especially,

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Texas Especially where I am in Texas. It's a little hilly here It's not mountainous by any stretch of the imagination, but San Antonio has some hills

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You know, I suppose that's something And I'll be driving through San Antonio first thing tomorrow but a lot of time to think and Most of you know that we started doing this means of travel rather than air travel

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Part of that reason was lockdowns. Those are over for now All sorts of studies come out just saw a study today just decimates the use of masks demonstrate

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They're just completely worthless and useless as we were telling people in 2020 I was one of the first people telling people

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I just I had Hundreds of studies there that had been done before COVID and then during COVID that all says the same thing and now after COVID Demonstrating that masks were completely worthless useless and dangerous for many of us including myself

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I have not gotten any apologies to my knowledge from the people who Ripped and snorted and stopped supporting us and doing stuff like that Even though pretty much everything we were saying has now been demonstrated to have been

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The very dangers that that existed. Anyway I'm I When I think about how much we spent on airline tickets in 2019

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I flew a hundred and sixty -five thousand miles in 2019 when when

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I think of Of how much we spent I don't want to send that money to the companies that did not care about me

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Would not make an exception for me Wearing a mask is very dangerous for me.

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I have a heart condition that it exacerbates far more dangerous for me to experience that than any exposure to COVID And so I just don't want to give them all sorts of large amounts of money

12:39

So I'm sitting in our fifth wheel that we purchased in July of 2021 at least that's when

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I first drove it. Maybe it's June and We've learned a lot over the past year and a half learned a lot as You know, we we updated we upgraded our tow vehicle if I had listened to pastor

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Derek Melton from the very start We wouldn't have had to have done that because He told me get a diesel and I didn't really listen to him

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And The Lord made that available and that has been a tremendous advantage a tremendous so thankful So thankful Wow Wow But we've also learned about some we've learned about a lot of other things in in the course of These trips and I have a number of trips

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You know, this is a long one all of February. I've got the short one in April all of May G3 in September Covering a dozen states in July Lots and lots of miles and After all this amount of time

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I better know what I'm doing when it comes to pulling an RV And I've learned things and we've we've learned about some design issues with our with our unit and They do have safety ramifications as well, but at the same time

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I Have come up with what I think is a really super idea

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As to how to utilize Something like this Significantly Not much higher level, but we that we hadn't even thought of this part before we hadn't really thought of this part

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But I'm doing right now before and so we are praying toward that end and doing research and making phone calls and checking stuff out and I Really?

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Hope the Lord opens the door to allow us to do this. It would Increase my safety and comfort on the road.

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No no question about that I think it would give us longer lasting Value to what we're doing and Like I said

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It would allow us to do some neat stuff online from a lot of different places including along the debate line and So pray with us toward that end and if If you feel so led and you go

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We want to have you out there doing the things you're doing going and doing the debates you're doing We need to have your voice out there

15:34

The travel fund at a omen org. You just go to a omen org There's a link there and it's

15:40

I think it's donate I think it's the donate link and then there's a choice thing general fund and travel fund is the only two we have in there right now and if there's a

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More and more coming in the travel fund That's that's an indication that Press forward and do good stuff keep addressing these issues keep keep doing these debates and going to the places you're going and So yeah, pray with us toward those ends and I'm excited about it

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You know, but but my excitement doesn't mean anything Have to be able to make everything work and to do it right so anyway

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Now I'm going to offend everybody I'm not gonna fit everybody a Tweet popped up on my feed and It involves

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JD Greer now I Remember very clearly It's funny.

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I'm getting that age where you think back just a few years and go what you were an idiot When I was in Munster, Germany in January of 2019

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It snowed in fact, I I remember videotaping when it the snow started coming down the next morning

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I Went out and ran That was really stupid It was icy.

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It was slippery and Here I am running in this stuff on Paths I've never been on my life

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But I did it and when I think back of what I could have done to myself just by being stupid

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It's it's it's something else but Anyway, I remember that you know I remember that because I was listening to JD Greer's sermon where he was talking about where he quoted the woman

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Sort of the woman preacher in his church That says that God whispers about sexual sin

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But he's real loud about religious hypocrisy and greed and you know all that kind of stuff remember that I First heard that I listened to that Sermon while running in the ice and snow in in Munster It's sort of indexed in my mind at that point in time and we talked about it

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We did we did a program and we we discussed What he was saying and why it was wrong and and It was from his

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Romans 1 series and I just went through Romans 1 and I'm like knots He's not just listing homosexuality in amongst all these other sins he's using as an example of what has happened because of sin anyway, a

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Lot has happened since then. I mean it was Not all that long after that that the

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Lytton plagiarism stuff exploded and on many of the same sermons that the

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Greer had preached and We all see the trajectory of The SPC as a whole right now it is

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Inexorably moving left Toward an affirming stance and what you don't hear and What we need to hear is

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The centrality of repentance now that that started a long time ago. I Remember one particular student of mine

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I was teaching Pretty sure it was Greek. It might have been It might have been

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Hebrew exegesis, but I think it was Greek And one of my students came in and he had just come out of was an evangelism class or some type of church growth class or something along those lines and He reported to me

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That he had just been informed in that other class They had been given a list of words to not use in Church so as to make the place more welcoming to seekers and things like that And one of the words well of wrath judgment and repentance repentance, especially and So the the groundwork for all of this was started long long ago the anti repentance movement the anti lordship movement

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Started a long time ago. And now it is bearing fruit in that The only way to understand the way that the

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Lord Jesus dealt with sinners Was that he dealt with them in?

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repentance not his repentance their repentance and So people's all Jesus spent time with sinners and he was not judgmental

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His first and foremost message was repentance Look at Zacchaeus, what is

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Zacchaeus done? Repentance is involved Look at his public ministry.

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It's repentance Even the woman to well, you cannot understand these things if you don't recognize the centrality of repentance because repentance is a gift from God as his faith and So that demonstrates the

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Spirit of God is at work in someone's sorry about that can't touch that right now That's something we're gonna be trying to fix by the way

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Touch touch the table and everything shakes Um, that's one of the one of the things

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Repentance and faith are the works of the Spirit of God and Once you make repentance just simply

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Whatever, you know if you want to if you want to be a super Christian fine but it's optional and faith is just simply the

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Autonomous act of the human being you're never gonna make heads or tails out of the morality and ethics of the

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Bible You just not gonna be able to So a clip has been posted from JD Greer About same -sex attraction in teenagers and a safe space if safe space

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Means a place where your sin will not be called to repentance Then no church should ever be a safe space and we all know that's exactly what a safe space is, right?

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So let's listen to what JD Greer says and then we'll comment on it on the other side

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You say you must say I love you more than I love being right And so even if you don't see things my way

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I'm gonna keep bringing you close and I'm gonna remain committed to you This is where the

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Christian community has so badly failed to live out Jesus's ministry The church ought to be the safest place on the planet

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For a teenager with same -sex attraction to reveal that or to come out the sinners were always safe exposing their hearts to Jesus It does not mean that we consent or agree it just means we never turn away and we never stop loving and we never stop drawing them close and We church we must be the biggest advocates again biggest advocates against discrimination and abuse against the gay community

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And where we have not church We must repent and if some of you have been the victims of that abuse tragically often

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It was done in the name of Jesus. That was not Jesus. That was Satan dressed up in Jesus's clothes Because that is not what

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Jesus was Jesus was holy just righteous

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His very presence Caused people to repent

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It did not cause people to be comfortable in their sin That that's the

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Jesus of the Bible anyways And so when you say the church should be the safest place

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For a teenager to come out About same -sex attraction. What do you mean by that?

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Do you mean by that? That a teenager should have confidence that the church

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Will be so much like Jesus that the church will tell them what they need to hear to have peace with God Even if that's the exact opposite of what the culture says, is that what you mean?

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I don't think that's what he means That's the only way we can say those words Anyone should know this church will tell me the truth

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They won't play games They won't just go with what will make them popular with the world

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They will tell me how to have peace with God How to escape the judgment of God and to have peace with God.

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That's what they'll tell me And so yes, the Christian Church should be a safe place

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For a teenager Who and in the vast majority of these instances vast

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When I started studying homosexuality in 2000 Specifically in preparation for writing same -sex controversy the number was like one and a half percent and It has exploded not only homosexuality but transgenderism and everything else and the hundred and forty seven different Insane genders and all the rest of that stuff.

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Don't tell me that that's natural That's the

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Internet That's smartphones. That's YouTube. That's tick -tock. That's Instagram. That's trying to fit in That that is fake

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Okay, it is created it has been ginned up and so when when we're talking about the church and someone who

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Has same -sex attraction the question is why do you have same -sex attraction? What are you exposing yourself to that is creating that because it's a much smaller number of people

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Who can in any way shape or form with any honesty say I've always felt this way

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There are some like that I have talked with some like that and the church Should be a place where someone who has struggled with that their entire life and does not want that Can come and get godly counsel as to how to have peace with God The church should never be the place

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Where someone comes To have their Sexual desires and predilections baptized and made acceptable before God and so there's a difference between the two and There's a huge difference it's an obvious difference between the two but that's that's the only way we can talk about a safe space

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I'm tired. Look, are there people that I've heard say horrific bigoted things out of utter ignorance

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Of course in the church I get it Where has the church failed first of all,

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I do not accept there is such a thing as a homosexual community You cannot have community based upon perverted sexual desire.

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That's just that's not a community It's just no one who holds up the Bible as an ultimate authority should ever

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Collapse and give in to this type of definition just shouldn't do it. But Where has the church failed?

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Well, I'll tell you I Come, you know,

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I grew up in the 60s and 70s and that means my parents grew up in the 40s and 50s and And well late 30s to for that matter and We were independent fundamentalist

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Baptist GRB General Association's regular Baptist you didn't talk about these things and talk about these things

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You would have people who would make crass jokes But even that I don't

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I don't ever remember that actually happening come think of it Because you just didn't talk about this stuff.

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This this was This was no you keep that and no what that also meant was we did not have any kind of open clear doctrine of biblical sexuality

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We knew what a marriage was everybody knew what a marriage was But we didn't really have a

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You know, you'd read the stuff about polygamy Concubinage stuff like that and no one ever talked about it

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You know, no one would ever go Well, that was really bad or this is why this happened or that happened or things like that So we failed in being as we normally are way behind the curve and In the 60s, especially some people saw it

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Francis Schaeffer saw it Rush Juni saw it, but we all thought they were a little weird

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You could see where the culture was going you could you follow these steps and Not good

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We didn't we didn't prepare I wasn't prepared I've admitted more than once I graduated seminary

30:19

I could not have told you what the clobber passages The primary passages on homosexuality in the

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Bible even work and I took a morality and ethics class, too

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Didn't really discuss it. I did debate the professor on abortion because he came from Fuller and he was way to the left

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Um, but That's the way things were so we failed in not being ahead in Not giving clear guidance and not being able to say the world

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You follow this path you you start playing with gender you start playing with marriage you start playing with the family and The results are going to be absolute disaster for the entire culture

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And here's why we still struggle in some ways to be able to answer the question. And here's why

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Because we're made in the image of God We live in God's world He wrote the owner's manual and we're throwing it out

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That's a problem. It's a big big problem. And so You you fail homosexuals

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When you do not call them to repentance you fail them when you cannot explain to them what

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God's Eternal Word says About the path to their own freedom

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That's how you fail them You don't fail them by not providing them a safe space.

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I Mean I just Why do we even use such language safe space? please

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Because for most people that means a repentance free space and There can be no such thing as repentance free space just not possible not possible so This is where the

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SPC is going. It's becoming this This reflection of the society.

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It was already going there before the quote -unquote resurgence the resurgence Put the brakes on for a while But let's just be honest that's that's where this is going

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There's there's no there's no way around it and That means these churches will become irrelevant they'll become smaller and smaller and Eventually, you're just gonna see

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The Southern Baptist Convention being like the United Methodists if they keep going this direction, you know and That's that's tragedy, but it may also be just necessary as well

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To do that I Noticed a quotation

33:13

Posted shifting gears or put the clutch in some of you don't know what a clutch is. I Love that Millennial anti -theft device, which is just a picture of the gear shift

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When I think about the cars, I learned to drive on you youngins should respect us old folks

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I We had a what year was that 70 74

33:43

Ford Granada Was it three three or four speed on the column

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Oh Try learning to drive on that One if you if you can learn to drive that you can learn to drive almost anything

33:59

Oh, it was the clutch wasn't really good. And oh it was Yeah, yeah, it was ugly anyway

34:09

See I told you the older I get These old memories come back it's like oh, it's so fun to have an old memory.

34:20

Let's talk about And then all your other old friends go hey,

34:25

I just had one too let's talk about that It's great anyway a

34:35

Quotation was provided on Twitter today there is a and it's connected to the neo

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Thomistic movement the Thomistic Renaissance amongst the reformed

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If someone is going to be Thomas, they're gonna hate Vintel you you cannot love until and Love Thomas at the same time

35:02

One of my first memories of reading the old Presbyterian and reformed

35:08

English translations of Antilles works defense the faith and sit induction systematic theology and stuff like that, you know the smaller ones, but they were the paperback and they

35:18

Really were not typeset. Well at all. It was almost a times Roman not even times

35:24

Roman but courier courier font something like that That anyway, one of my memories see did the memory thing

35:31

Was making note of how often Vintel made reference to Thomas Aquinas in a very negative fashion and part of that was just simply because Roman Catholic apologetics is extremely

35:51

Man -centered every time every time I've happened to wander across Roman Catholic Listening to Catholic answers or something like that on the radio and they're taking phone calls and they have an atheist call in.

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I Just sit there listening and I think a couple times in the past. We've gone ahead and played some of them I've tried to track down the recording and played it but it's just oh, it's so it's so difficult to listen to Because they have to because of their theology grant to the atheist his human autonomy

36:23

It's it's the essence of the sacramental system And it's really the essence of Thomas's apologetic as well that that appeal to human reason and things like that and so for Vintel He's like here this is this is one of the biggest dividing lines between us is

36:46

We do not you you cannot grant to the rebel sinner His right to stand in judgment of the

36:56

Holy God you can't say to the pot You get to decide whether there's a Potter or not the pot is judged by the

37:04

Potter not the other way around and So As the

37:13

And of course they've stolen the term classical theology classical apologetics

37:20

Terminology as this Thomistic resourcement has been taking place. It's not just amongst reform Baptist though It's the most incongruous

37:28

Amongst reform Baptist anytime. I hear reform Baptist talking about the great tradition. I just I just wanna go dude

37:34

There aren't any Baptist Do you know what the great tradition of baptism is or church government or any of those things so on the one hand you're saying on this stuff, we're gonna be

37:46

Biblicists and Reject that but then over here, we're not gonna do Anyway As this resourcement has taken place

37:59

You have seen a number okay.

38:06

Well, we'll do the best we can to pick up from there So Tesco is one of the classical theology classical apologetics guys

38:18

Came out with a book against Vintel a few years ago and I'm thankful that I am seeing

38:28

Pushback from Westminster Seminary they're doing a bunch of stuff on Vintel or doing a lot of good seminars and putting out good stuff and I think that's very useful but I I noted as I said a

38:47

Quotation That was posted today Vintel could get away with a lot

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Because a lot of the things that he wrote about the views of Kuiper and Bobby were locked away in Dutch And no one could go back and see what do

39:01

Kuiper and bobbing actually say and I remember One of the greatest criticisms of Vintel for years is then

39:08

English was not his first language. It's Dutch So he's reading them in his own language.

39:13

And so now you have people depend upon English translations thinking They can get it better than he could

39:20

Which is always interesting And now so many the works of Kuiper and bobbing are coming out in English translation people will now verify for themselves

39:30

I'm not so sure that Vintel rightly understood Kuiper and bobbing at these particular points of criticism Would love to have seen these guys say that to Vintel Back in the day, but they were just kids then

39:41

I think that a lot of the supposedly Supposedly unique contributions that Vintel has made

39:47

Supposedly to the field of apologetics, this is Fesco speaking by the way are going to be revealed as either being erroneous or not so unique because they're actually said clear and with better exegesis and a

39:58

Sounder theological historical foundation in the tradition in Kuiper or bobbing And so in that sense,

40:04

I can't help but think that a lot of Vintel not everything But a lot of what Vintel has said is becoming irrelevant

40:10

In other words, why use the middleman Ryan go straight to the source I predict that ten years from now. Those words will be laughable laughable because The Thomistic resourcement can only last so long

40:25

Thomas is boring Thomas is dry. I can't tell you how many

40:32

Roman Catholics I've talked to that had to study Thomas that will tell you Yeah, I agree Okay, you have to have

40:41

You have to have a motivation that you want to get ahead in The Academy in the in the amongst the scholastics

40:51

To push yourself to drive through Aquinas, that's just the reality and there's just as People live in this world and deal with all the difficulties and struggles.

41:06

We're having today It's just not gonna last Just not gonna last. I mean it's gonna do its damage like Scholasticism always does in every generation, but it's not gonna last

41:16

It's not gonna last and The people promoting it. No, they won't either okay, now

41:22

I Want to thank dead men walking podcast for confirming a few things for me here

41:30

It was dead men walking podcast that posted this so evidently back in 2015 it was an interesting year.

41:45

There was a certainty conference On reform theology by and it could featured from what

41:53

I can see here in the video Anyways, I'm not gonna be showing the video yet We're gonna do this as a radio free

41:58

Geneva, maybe on the road maybe on my trip back. We'll see You know,

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I'd have to probably have my second monitor hooked up and it gets a little complicated again

42:11

Lord willing will be Improving my ability to do these things in the future With your assistance, uh, but I'm looking at four men now, it's what's interesting is and maybe

42:27

Maybe I'm wrong here. I don't know But my understanding is these are

42:35

King James only fundamentalist Baptist But they're doing the cash thing, you know, no ties no no jackets golf pants golf shirts type thing and I've just gotten a feeling

42:51

I could be wrong about this. I've just got the feeling that that's even an area of division because I've heard when

42:59

Bad preacher clips post stuff. I've heard the suit wearing tie -wearing

43:07

Steven Anderson style guys just ripping and snorting on the people who preach in some type of fashion that's supposed to be

43:21

Attractive the world or something along those lines and these guys are in jeans and they're they're cashed out so I mean not cash cashed out, but They're not doing the standard fundamentalist

43:37

Baptist look shall we say and Someone has confirmed for me.

43:43

Thank you very much. This is this is why Twitter is useful whether we Admit it or not

43:49

Twitter is useful the four pastors as they are sitting on the

43:55

Seats here. It's one of these Q &A things Brett Bartlett Mark Trotter Sam Miles and Alan Shelby Think it way back here someplace the name

44:12

Mark Trotter rings a Faint bell, but I could be completely wrong about that might be someone completely different Don't know

44:22

But they are answering questions it is the blind leading the blind it is why we started radio

44:31

You know, we've dealt with some of the best of the best in their criticisms of Reformed theology on radio for each new we have

44:41

But most of the time most of us are dealing with people Who are not giving us the best the best they're giving us the worst the worst and in this context

44:54

You've got people who know nothing about Calvinism asking questions of people who know just a little bit about Calvinism and the result is

45:07

Really really bad Now it's interesting this is coming up on eight years ago now

45:12

Does 2015 feel like eight years ago to you didn't feel like to me Then again 2019 does feel like about 20 years ago on other levels.

45:21

So I guess you got that We're gonna do this is radio for you Geneva, I'm just gonna look at the first just give you a sense of What's going on here?

45:33

Here is the first question up and Hopefully is to come across clearly and my phone battery won't die before the end of the hour so that's

45:45

Best shot we've got Okay, the only question I ever had to a Calvinist and they never respond well to this is if you honestly believe even two of the points

45:57

Unconditional election and total depravity. Why are you not just totally depraved?

46:05

Because if you can't do anything for your salvation I would act like the days of Noah, um now if if I was in a situation where you didn't have a completely reformed audience, or maybe

46:22

I was in the minority and Someone asked that question My response would be well any self -respecting

46:30

Calvinist who has done really any serious listening to reform preaching reform theology

46:38

Would tell you that Regeneration involves taking out a heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh

46:47

You're made a new creature. You're made a lover of Christ and so It is true that God unconditionally elects those to whom he shows that mercy in that grace

47:00

But when he shows that mercy in that grace, he brings about regeneration and he changes our hearts and our minds so that we desire to love

47:07

God and To be submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, which would get all sorts of booze and catcalls and things like that, right?

47:15

Anyway, um We are no longer totally depraved because we are a new creature in Christ we are indwelt by the

47:24

Holy Spirit we have a new heart and So we still have the effects of abiding sin in this life until death when we are freed from those things and So we're still dealing with sin in our life but we are no longer slaves to sin and We are no longer dead in sin in Christ.

47:47

We have been made new creatures and So that's how I would respond and if the panel

47:56

Has any knowledge of reformed theology and what I just said is standard basic 101

48:06

It's not some mystery. It's it's not only the high -end Calvinist would know that no, it's what everybody understands and So if you're gonna answer a question about something then you you might want to know what you're talking about So here's um, here's the panel responding

48:25

They're looking at each other. How would they respond to that?

48:33

Well Okay, well so this is Brett Bartlett speaking if There they would say that they're not totally depraved because they have been

48:45

Sovereignly decreed to not be totally depraved since before the foundation of the world

48:52

What? What is that supposed to be they would say that they are not totally depraved because they have been regenerated

49:03

Because in God's sovereign decree he chose to be merciful and gracious to them before the foundation of the world

49:09

Is that that is that that's supposed to mean? I hope that's what it's supposed to mean

49:15

So they would say that they they would say that they are not depraved Because because God has forced their lack of depravity on them

49:26

Violently and against their will and that is not me hyperbolizing. That is their terminology

49:35

So Here you have the constant and I really hard for me to respect people who do this.

49:42

I'll be honest with you. I I've tried and I fail This is as absurd shallow and childish as Saying that Jesus violently forced life on Lazarus That the

50:04

Holy Spirit of God violently forced a new heart Upon Lydia What why even use such absurd language?

50:17

Well because you don't have an actual response to The biblical argumentation and so you you have to come up with something to inflame emotions.

50:26

It's obvious And so this this is the kind of absurd misrepresentation

50:38

That is so common amongst these Fundamentalist Baptists and why why can they get away with this?

50:47

because amongst fundamentalist Baptists you do not have any kind of encouragement to read outside of your tradition and Fact there is an inherent fear

51:01

There is an inherent fear of Doing so I mean fundamentalism is a fear driven system

51:10

Don't listen to those people out there. Oh, I Can tell you I I knew a guy once He started listening to to RC sprawl and today.

51:21

Oh my goodness See, and so you have this fear driven mindset

51:31

Because There are clearly not doing reading outside their own tradition and That explains some of the straw man misrepresentation and and they know that their audience isn't and so That's how they get away with it, but I mean it's not even close and That's why look.

51:55

Hey, especially Brett Bartlett Um Would I would love to do a public debate with Brett Bartlett on Unconditional election or something like that.

52:08

That'd be great Have fifth wheel will travel Let's let's make it happen, but we continue that would be their answer

52:22

As Far as any extrapolation on that I will leave that to the the great minds to my left.

52:35

I Feel like I'm in a boy band man This is this is my solo right here, so I'm assuming what

52:45

I've been told this is Mark Trotter Yeah, no,

52:52

I agree with the guy to the right Between Catholicism and Islam, right you got seven sacraments or you got a five pillars

53:07

I Always get really nervous when people start talking about Catholicism and Islam because most fundamentalists are extremely ignorant of Catholicism and Extremely ignorant of Islam and it's like you just multiply the level of ignorance by each other

53:30

So seven sacraments and the five ways What's the connection there?

53:36

I have no idea. I and I understand Catholicism and I understand

53:43

Islam pretty well more better than the average bear and I don't see what the connection is.

53:49

Obviously, that's some reference to something earlier. I Who knows and both of them are fatalistic?

53:57

Both of them are fatalistic Well There The Hadith is fatalistic in the sense of an absolute decree of Of Allah I've narrated the

54:18

Hadith that talked about this to you many times before But Catholicism I mean, there's an

54:31

Augustinian branch of Catholicism, obviously, but But Trent's doctrine of the sacraments requires some level of human autonomy for it to even be meaningful so That I don't see any meaningful connection

54:52

Between Catholicism and Islam on this topic at all

55:00

And Calvinism borrows that from both of those it is fatalistic

55:07

So Calvinism borrows from Islam And Roman Catholicism to be fatalistic.

55:16

Okay Again the ignorance is understandable. It's Prevalent. Hey, even

55:22

Norman Geisler showed ignorance at this point. It's more of a bias than he didn't have to be ignorant of it

55:27

He just chose to be ignorant But Anyone who understands

55:34

Khadr in Islamic theology and understands the transcendence of Allah Knows that the

55:45

Christian doctrine of the incarnation and the

55:52

Direct providential involvement of God in the events in time Is a complete violation of Islamic theology regarding the transcendence of Allah and the concept of Khadr and so those who try to Connect Khadr and The Christian doctrine of predestination election as Fatalism are just purely ignorant of the terminology.

56:17

They just don't know what they're talking about Most of them just don't care. That's the problem. That's it's it's meant to be an argument

56:22

It's meant to be. Oh, you're like the Muslims. You don't want to be like the Muslims. That's it's that level of argumentation but if you're interested

56:32

Some of that came out in my conversation with Yusuf Ismail in Durban, South Africa.

56:38

And what was that about? 2018 -2019. It's one of the last times I was in Durban. I think it was probably like 2018

56:47

We did the debate on Predestination. It was interesting because Yusuf ended up being I thought considerably less

56:56

Consistent with the terminology that Mohammed used Then I expected it to be but again if you want to hear both sides in a conversation on that subject

57:09

You could you could do that. So this is I Think you have to agree

57:15

This will make a great Radio Free Geneva. It really will. So if any of you know Brett Bartlett, Mark Trotter, Sam Miles and Alan Shelby Let them know that We are going to do a

57:28

Radio Free Geneva. I don't know the date yet. It all depends but we are going to be responding

57:35

To their statements that were made publicly and refuting them and Inviting their

57:46

Question and their Participation and and stuff like that. So There you go.

57:52

There you go. Sorry about the cutout we had. I'm not sure if we had a second one later on I did see a disconnect thing briefly later on.

57:58

So we may have had a few hiccups Sometimes happens on the road But Pray for the debate

58:07

Wednesday night that there will be clarity That we won't have technical issues with the live streaming and of course traveling mercies and then

58:20

I'm gonna be speaking on Roman Catholicism in Louisiana and Then of course the conference in Tullahoma Jeffrey Rice's conference.

58:30

They're Gonna be doing the debate there and speaking from the Gospel of John and Then the trip all the way home as well so thank you very very much for your support and Hopefully the program was helpful to you today, and we will see you next time on the dividing line.