Amazing: Christian Pastor vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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You guys Jehovah's Witnesses? Yes, we are. All right, you guys cold? It's cold outside.

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It's a little chilly. I'm Jeff. Hi, Jeff. Nice to meet you guys. Nice to meet you. Why are you guys

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Jehovah's Witnesses? Why'd you make that decision? Well, because...

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Sorry, I'm gonna get safe under here, sorry. Yeah, well, because we go by the Bible and we know that it's accurate and true and we know, you know, a lot of people have discredited the

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Bible, taken God's name out of it and so on. I mean, there's many reasons, but yeah, definitely the

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Bible is the key. Okay. Pretty much the same. My parents started studying the

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Bible when I was about three, so pretty much raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but that didn't mean

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I couldn't leave. But yeah, just the Bible truth and that it's the right way to go.

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Okay, right on. So, how long have you been, so pretty much since you were little, same? Yeah, here in Utah?

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I grew up in Southern California. Okay, all right. I grew up in Washington. Washington State?

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Yeah. Okay, all right. How about you? I'm from all over. My dad was military, so I'm all over the world,

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D .C. before he, before I actually live in Arizona, so we're just visiting right now. Came at the wrong time to visit, it's cold.

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So, one thing I really respect about my friends who have been Jehovah's Witnesses is the passion about the

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Bible and we believe the Bible and those sorts of things. But what, I just, I'm curious because I would love to talk to you guys and see what you guys believe about this.

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What would you guys say about sort of the New World Translations different translation than almost every single translation out there in terms of coming from the

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Hebrew or the Greek translation into English? The Watchtower is very, very different.

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So, why do you accept, as Jehovah's Witnesses, who I know are passionate and zealous, why do you accept the

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New World Translations translation when it disagrees so much with every other

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English translation? You know, it doesn't, we'll, we will use any translation because you can get the truth out of any translation.

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The reason we use the New World is because it was put back in places where it has been taken out and like the

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King James, at least the old King James, they used to put in there where it's capital

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Lord or capital God, that's where Jehovah's name should be. And so, when it, you know, when you talk about truth and translations, that's one of the biggest things.

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And as far as any other differences, there really, there might be some, but quite honestly, the

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New World Translation has gone back to the oldest manuscripts that they can find. And what it says in the original language being translated into English is spot on.

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I think another reason too is like with the King James, there's a lot of the these, thys, thous.

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Very old English. No, yeah, it's very, it's a good translation, but it's so foreign to us today and different.

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And we refer to the American Bible, the, oh, what are some of the other ones?

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There's many Bibles that we will refer to if it, you know, like in a public talk or something, if you're going to get the point across a little bit more, where it's even more simplified words than the

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New World Translation. So we have no objection to a Bible, period. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear that.

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It's very different than I think a lot of Jehovah's Witness friends have said. In the past, there seems to be sort of a shift in terms of more of a comfort level today with some of the more modern

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English translations than maybe even in the 90s. So I guess my main question would be,

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I'm a Christian, and so my question is, we really disagree on who Jesus is and what the gospel is.

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So Charles, I'm sure you know the history of your organization, Charles Taze Russell, Judge Rutherford, you know, when they came out and they started talking about Jesus, they gave a different story about who

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Jesus is. They called Jesus the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. They really went back to what was an old heresy that was responded to in the fourth century, and that was

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Arianism, the idea that Jesus was created by the Father. You guys do believe that, correct?

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Yeah. And I think that would be one of the main points, and I'm sharing this with you because I care about you. I love your community. When we talk about translations, the

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New World Translation actually changes passages specifically about Jesus, that he's the creator of all things, uncreated.

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Where is that at? There's a couple places. Colossians chapter one, do you have that in the New World? I'll just give you an example.

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So something you can think about, and just, I would encourage you just to go, just to go investigate.

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Sure. In Colossians chapter one, there's a good example.

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It's, well, you can start in verse 15, and just, you can take a look at some, there's some

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Greek interlinear translations you can look at in the, in online, where you can, the

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Greek is alongside the English. You don't need to know Greek to, to basically work through it, but it'll show you the Greek text behind the

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English text. And so I'll read this. Okay. And this is a kind of a standard

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English translation from the Greek text, and you can follow along so you can see. It says in verse 15, he, that's

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Jesus, is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. And the word there, firstborn, and you can look this up, is protantikos in the

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Greek. It doesn't mean first in order of creation. It's a, it's a term of he's the heir. Israel was called

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God's firstborn. David is called God's firstborn. So when Jesus is called the firstborn, it doesn't mean first in order of creation.

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It means like David, like Israel, God's the heir of all things. But anyway, for by him, all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him.

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What does the new world say? Starting at 15, it says he is the image of the invisible

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God, the firstborn of all creation. Because by means of him, all other things were created in the heavens and on earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities, all other things have been created through him and for him.

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You notice that? So all other things. So I'm assuming that you are

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Trinitarian. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, if you can remember it, it is in Corinthians.

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Paul talks about, you know, Jesus. Sure. About Jesus being the high priest.

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Uh -huh. That's right. But and that was after he was here on earth because he was tested in all things.

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As a man. Yes. As a man. Yeah. So as a high priest and king, it's still not saying that he's almighty

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God. Except that he called himself God. He received worship. The apostles call him

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God. The Old Testament calls him the mighty God, which is an exclusive title of Jehovah, the mighty

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God, El Gabor. And Jesus is called El Gabor, the mighty God. But but that text there, just as an example, because I was talking about the difference in translation because I love your community so much.

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And many, many of you aren't aware. Examples like that where the Watchtower began teaching a different Jesus than scripture teaches and history had had given us.

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Actually, Jesus himself said that he was the son of God. Right. That's that's. Yeah.

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He's the eternal son. To be a son. You're not equal. Well, that's his position.

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He did. He did. The text here actually says that he was equal with God. And and I mean,

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I thought maybe in that version of the Bible. But you can go to the

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Greek yourself and you can you can see it going back. And I don't have the millennia on here. Well, and then on John three sixty two, he's the only begotten son of God.

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The word begotten there is monogamous. It means unique and one of a kind, not created.

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Monogamous is unique and one of a kind. So why couldn't he have been created? Jesus? Because the text explicitly says he wasn't.

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I'll give an example. So first of all, there's an example of the Watchtower adding words to the text to make

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Jesus not the creator of all things, where the text actually says all things. The Watchtower placed in the words all other things.

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And no, you'll you can look this up. Please do. Don't take my word for it. I'm a stranger to you right now. Go look it up later and you'll see that the other is an addition made by the

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Watchtower. That's not in the Greek text. You talked about going back to the originals. We have thousands and thousands of copies of the

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Greek manuscript pieces and copies have been transmitted, transmitted to us on the earth. And he died.

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Yeah. Who resurrected him? Well, the text actually says, sorry, I'll wait for this to pass by.

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So that's where you get to. You ask a question about the Trinity, right? One being of God. The Bible teaches there's only one

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God. And yet the Bible teaches the father is God. It teaches that Jesus is God. It teaches the Holy Spirit is

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God. And yet there are three persons, one being of God. Right. The Bible says that the father raises

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Jesus from the dead. You agree with that, right? But Jesus, when he was asked a question or when he was challenged with the temple situation, he says, destroy this temple.

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And in three days, I will raise it up again. That's what Jesus said. And then it says in the text, he was speaking of the temple of his body.

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So he says to the Jews of his day, destroy this temple in three days. I will raise it up again.

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So the Bible says the father raised Jesus from the dead. The Bible says Jesus raised himself from the dead. The Bible says the spirit raised

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Jesus from the dead. And the Bible just says God raised Jesus from the dead. That's an example of how you get

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Trinitarian belief, is that the Bible teaches triunity, one God, one being of God, three eternal persons.

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And it teaches that Jesus is equal with the father, that he shares the glory of the father. You know the text in John 17, where he's praying his high priestly prayer, he says that he wants to go back to the father with the glory that he had before the world began.

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He shared that glory with the father. And I'm going to say this, can I commend you guys on something?

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What I love about Jehovah's Witnesses is just what you're doing right now. It's commendable, is that if we're having a conversation, you're telling me

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I'm going to the text. When I say, hey, John 17 says this, you immediately start going to the text, which is and I mean this sincerely, it's commendable, because Mormons, exactly,

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Mormons, Latter -day Saints, they don't have that commitment that you guys have right now, is to say, well, where does it say that?

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Where does it say that in the text? So an example of when you ask the question about the

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Trinity, in John 17, he says,

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Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son that this may glorify you since you have given him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

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And this is eternal life that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.

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And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

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So if he's equal to God, how is he being glorified?

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I mean, you know, actually, our Bible says pretty much the same thing. Yeah, yeah. So when you're talking about Jesus saying,

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God, please glorify me, what I mean, it's a good question. Yeah.

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If it's the same person, same God, not the same person. Well, Jesus isn't the Father.

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That's one thing Jehovah's Witnesses are often taught is that Christians teach that Jesus is the Father. Okay. Bible doesn't teach that.

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Okay. Explain the Trinity. Well, I mean, just the shell of the Trinity to me, because I know that I've talked to people who said they believed in the

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Trinity, and it's not what true Trinitarians believe.

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Yeah. Unfortunately, we live in a culture where there's a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses who are ignorant about their own theology.

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And there's also a lot of Christians, professing Christians who are also very ignorant about their own theology that they say they believe. So the

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Bible says something that we would all agree on and that there's only one God, right? So before me, there was no

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God form, neither shall there be after me, Isaiah 43, 10, 44, 6, 44, 8, Shema Yisrael, Yahweh Eloheinu, Yahweh Echad.

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Here O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. There is only one God. Now we would agree with that, a common ground on that, right?

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But we would also agree that the Bible calls the Father God, right? Right. That's a given, right?

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But the scripture also teaches that Jesus is God. He took the divine name of God upon himself.

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The Jews knew exactly what he was saying when he did, because they picked up stones to kill him, as in John 8, where he says, before Abraham was,

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I am. He takes the name of God from the famous scene of the burning bush, and he calls himself the

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I Am. And they picked up stones to kill him, because he was taking the divine name of God.

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In John 10, two chapters later, he says, many good works have I shown you from the Father, for which of these do you stone me?

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They said, for your good works we stone you not, but for blasphemy, and that you, being a man, make yourself God.

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And see, but that was the Jews saying that he was making himself

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God. It wasn't Jesus himself. Oh, he didn't. No, he had just done it. He had just said, I am. The I am,

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I'm not, all I can say about that is, of course,

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Jesus was with God long before Moses was ever on earth, and so, yes, he's seen everything that Moses did.

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He, you know, was there. Yeah, but he called himself the I Am, though. Well, I, you know,

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I'd have to brush up on my... That's okay. No, no, no, it's okay. Don't feel obligated.

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I used to live in Colorado, where Trinity is huge, so I could explain...

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Well, it has been for the whole history of the Christian church. But when you think about what

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Jesus was really saying is, yes, he's the I Am, because he was created,

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Jehovah God created him, and he went through him to do everything else that he did.

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So, are they equal? No. Scripture says, Paul says they were.

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And you believe the Bible in Philippians chapter 2. Yeah, yeah. In Philippians chapter 2, it actually says explicitly that he was equal before the incarnation, which gets to your question in terms of how is he being glorified with the glory that he shared before the world was.

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And it's in Philippians chapter 2, and it starts in verse 4. It says, each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

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Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, we're talking about Jesus, who though he was in the form of God, the very form of God, he did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped or held on to, but he emptied himself and he took upon the form of a servant.

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So there's the incarnation there, that Jesus was equal with God, and he took upon the form of a servant, and he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even the death on the cross.

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So the question was equality. Paul explicitly says

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Jesus was equal to the Father. So in Colossians 1 .15, it says he is the image of the invisible

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God. Yeah, the exact imprints of his nature. Okay. He shares the same nature as the

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Father. That actually, that verse proves the Christian's point. So he's the image of the invisible God.

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He shared the very nature of God. Okay. You have a son, and he is a splitting image of you.

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Well, kind of. He looks a little different, but yeah, I get your point. He's from me. No, I know.

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I have five kids. How many do you have? I only have one. Okay. And she's a girl, and she doesn't look nothing like her, although some people say she does.

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But anyways, he's a splitting image of you. But the problem with that is you were using the

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English language there, whereas if you look at that text and what he was getting at, the image of the invisible

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God, he's the exact imprint of the Father's nature. And so Jesus is the same nature as the

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Father. There's only one God by nature, shared by three eternal persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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That text in Philippians says that Jesus is equal to the Father, but he did not consider it something to be held on to, but he emptied himself and became a servant.

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There's the incarnation, God becoming flesh. And in John 1, you know the famous passage.

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It's another example, though. John chapter 1, in the beginning was the word... Have you ever heard of or read the book

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Truth in Translation? Yes, a long time ago. It is not put out by us.

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It's by some theologian in Arizona, I believe,

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Phoenix. Anyway, some college. He digs into several different Bibles and he goes into exactly what you're talking about as far as Jehovah's Witnesses changing the

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Bible to our beliefs. And you should read it.

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I've read it a long time ago. That's an older book than I'm aware of. Yeah, it's been around for a long time.

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But it just really, he takes a lot of these doctrines, these scriptures, and really goes through them.

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And why not? I mean, he finds fault in every Bible, but he did...

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Well, no English translation is perfect, for sure. But he did say that as far as a religious organization changing the

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Bible to their beliefs, Jehovah's Witnesses have not. But they have, though, because I gave you an example of Colossians chapter 1, where they actually added words that distort the meaning of the text.

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In Colossians 1, add all other things, correct? Hi. Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to commend you.

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Okay. It's really cool stuff. And I understand where you're coming from here.

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It's kind of like the truth refracting out of the both of you. Also, just seeing his perspective on things.

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Thanks for the blessing. Thanks for the blessing. Thank you very much, sir. In the beginning was the

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Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So in the Greek, because you mentioned Christ and how far back he goes, you can check me on this.

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Please look it up. In the beginning is, in the Greek, an arke ein halagos.

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Now, that might not mean anything to you guys. Right. Except, an arke ein halagos means as far back as you go with no reference point to stopping forever ago, is what the

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Greek is saying. The Word was with, the Word was there. So that's contrary to the

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Watchtower's doctrine on Jesus. The Watchtower believes that Jesus was created. In the beginning was the

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Word. It means that Jesus was already there from all eternity. And he was, look at this, he was with God, the

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Father, and the Word was God. Everything God was, the Word was. So God in there, you have a capital

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G. And in our translation, it's a lower G. On the last point.

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Yes. Yes. But how many gods are there? Well, yeah. How many true gods are there?

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There's only one true God. So the text says. But the interesting thing is, is when you talk about God as what you just talked about, as Jesus being referred to as God, he,

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I agree with you, he was referred to as a

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God. However, he was never referred to as Almighty God. But then you go back to the word

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Elohim. That word means God in all the way from Almighty God, all the way down to the

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Pharaoh. The judges of Israel, the judges of Israel. We were called, we're even called Elohim. And so when you're talking about that, those there's a lot of what they call gods, except they're not talking about the

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Almighty God. But you can see where I hear your point and you're you're onto something I think important, but except that John makes it very clear that he is talking about the true

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God, because the text. You're right. He is talking about the true God.

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Because it says he was in the beginning with God. All things are made through him, Jesus. Right. And without him, nothing was made that has been made.

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You're talking about two people. Two persons. Two people. Very good.

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Yes. That's that's what the Bible teaches. So what we believe is Jehovah God.

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Yeah. His son, Jesus. Yes. Or the word, because he was. The word.

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Yeah. And so it's two different people. You believe in two beings.

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You believe in two beings, two persons. Like you and your son are. Two beings, two persons.

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Right. The scriptures teach there's only one being of God, but it teaches that Jesus is the mighty God. That's what scripture teaches.

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And he's the creator of all things. We do differ there. Well, the text says and this is yeah,

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I think you'll really appreciate this because the it's it's a name explicitly reserved for Jehovah. And Isaiah nine, six, for to us, a child is born to us, a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder.

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It's prophecy of Jesus. And it says his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor. Those are names, titles of Jehovah only mighty

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God. The word there is El Gabor. Now, one chapter later, same book, one chapter later.

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Jehovah is called the mighty God, El Gabor. And I'll show you that here. Sorry, it's a new

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Bible and the pages are all sticking together. Forgive me.

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There you go. If you look in your you can look in your translation as well, if you want to feel more comfortable.

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Isaiah 10, starting in verse 20, it says, But we'll lean on Jehovah, the holy one of Israel.

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In truth, a remnant will return the remnant of Jacob to the mighty

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God, El Gabor. That's that's the name of Jehovah. But it says that the son who's coming is the mighty

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God. Well, he what he is a mighty God, but he's not all.

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There's only one God, though. Which is Jehovah God. Right. Jehovah is is

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El Gabor, right? He is the mighty God. Yeah, right. What it says is mighty. It says in Isaiah nine that Jesus is the mighty

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God. It's a mighty God. No, you're adding those words, though. No. You know what?

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What you could do if you're interested is you could take one of our invitations. I actually have one of these.

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Yeah, I live in Phoenix. I have one of these. Well, we really encourage you to attend. And maybe that will give you a little bit of a different perspective.

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No, I appreciate you guys. And I want to say that I tell I admire very much the passion you guys have.

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But I want to just say something. This goes for me, too. In Second Corinthians 11, the apostle Paul says that he's worried about the early church in Corinth, he says, because they have other

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Jesus's and other gospels. And he says, you might even put up with these people who preach a different Jesus.

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In the very first century of the church, Paul was warning the church against false Christ's false versions of Jesus that can't save you.

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And you guys believe Jesus is the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. The Mormons believe that Jesus is

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Lucifer's brother, one of Elohim spirit offspring with his polygamous wives in the preexistence.

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The Bible teaches, you know, more than I do. The Bible teaches and the early the church has always believed that there is only one

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God eternally existent in three persons. That's a different Jesus. But Jesus, you did refer to John 17, three.

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Yeah, there. And it says, come to know the only true God and of his son, Jesus Christ.

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Right. And that's how Jesus, as the God man, speaks about the father. And in the very next verse, he says that he is going to receive the same glory, the glory of Jehovah that he shared with Jehovah before the world was.

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There's only one God. He doesn't share his glory, he says, with anybody else. But Jesus shares that glory. Jehovah says he doesn't share his glory with anybody else.

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And Jesus said he shared it. So he is he is Jehovah, two different persons, not beings, one being of God, two persons.

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You're one being, you're one being. I'm one being. But you're one being and one person, one being and one person.

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We're all separate beings and one person. The Bible teaches there's only one God. We agree with that. One being of God who eternally exists as father, son and Holy Spirit.

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Jesus is the eternal God. And the key issue here is if you and I come to a

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Christ that doesn't exist, you're coming to a Christ that can't save you because there's only one Jesus. We absolutely believe that he exists.

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And it's only... But which one? The son, the one that... The eternal son? Or the created...

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The created first offspring of Jehovah? Because the Bible teaches Jesus existed from all eternity.

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We could probably disagree on that. Yeah, this is, I mean... But we appreciate you.

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I know, I appreciate you guys. You know, actually, you know, I will say you absolutely know your

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Bible. And that's that's commendable because so many people don't. Yeah. And so we do...

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I appreciate that. I appreciate that blessing. I want to let you guys know that I care for you. I truly do love you as image bearers of God.

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And you believe that I'm lost and I believe that you're lost. And you believe that I'm believing in a false

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God with the Trinity. And you and I believe you're believing in a false Christ. The key issue here is, though, is this, is that who

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Jesus is matters the most because he's the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father but by him.

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There's also a public talk. Yeah. Yeah, I actually have attended one.

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I have attended one of those in Phoenix. Actually, two times I've gone to those just to create relationships and talk and have a dialogue.

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I appreciate your community so much because you truly do believe what you say you believe and you sacrifice for it. You stand right here in the freezing cold to do this.

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So I want you to know... We're doing a shift change with these guys right here. I want you to know as much as we disagree,

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I honor you and your passion, but I believe that you're passionately deceived and wrong.

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And you believe that about me. So we're OK. But I want you to know the true

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Christ. And just consider one thing. Go investigate this because the information is out there for you to look at.

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The Bible teaches in Deuteronomy 18 that the way you know a prophet is a false prophet or a real one is if they have false prophecies, even one.

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If Jesus had a single false prophecy, we are commanded by God to reject him as a false prophet, a single false prophecy that goes.

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That's the rule. Deuteronomy 18. If you have a single false prophecy, God says, that's how you know they're not the prophet of God.

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And you guys, I'm sure aware of the incessant false prophecies of the Watchtower from from the very beginning, from Rutherford to Charles Taze Russell.

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I mean, your organization lost a number of of witnesses in the 70s because of false prophecy.

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So you're so it's well, well, actually, that was in prophecy. You can look into it.

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People thought it was people. You're doing a shift change.

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But just I want to encourage you. That's the test. It applies to all prophets. Go look into it. If there's a single false prophecy, you're a false prophet.