Aug. 4, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Rich Jensen on “Ecumenism: Biblical vs. False!”

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downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a

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facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth.

Listening via live streaming, this is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you

all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of August 2015, and I'm

so delighted that I have as a guest today a man who is actually one of my

very first guests ever hosting a talk radio program.

That's my friend Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island, New York,

and years ago when I was working for WMCA radio, a

satellite radio station of the Salem Media Group, which

is the largest radio network in the world, largest Christian radio network in the world,

when I was working there in their New York City affiliate WMCA, which

was actually at the time located in northern New Jersey, they gave me the opportunity to

fill in for the host there, Andy Anderson, who is currently with the Lord, and Andy

Anderson recommended that when he was on vacation that I fill in for him that day, and that began

my bug for radio, and one of my very first guests was Pastor Rich

Jensen, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron.

Sharpens Iron,

Pastor Rich

Jensen.

Yeah, why don't you tell

everybody?

Yes, I do.

Remember it well, and amazingly they still invited me back a number of times

to host the program when Andy was out.

In fact, I was the first host after Andy went home to be with the Lord

suddenly and tragically.

He had had cancer for years and no one had known it, and so he departed

very quickly after being diagnosed finally, and the

very first person they asked to fill in for him for I believe two weeks was

myself, and that really launched my bug to

begin hosting a radio program which eventually came about on WNYG

and WGBB in Babylon, Long Island, and that was the beginning of Iron Sharpens Iron between

2006 and 2011, and my guest today, Pastor Rich Jensen, was a frequent

co -host and guest on that broadcast, and it's great to have you back, and in fact it's great to welcome you for the

very first time to the all -new Iron Sharpens Iron.

Today we're talking about ecumenism, biblical versus

false ecumenism, and this is a very vital issue in the church today,

and there are many differences of opinions that exist within the body of Christ on how to approach

this subject.

There are even differences of opinion within the Reformed or Calvinistic

community, and even the Reformed Baptist Church at large, which both

Pastor Rich and I are a part of, and before we even go into the subject at hand,

tell our listeners something about Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island, or I'm sorry, Hope Reformed Baptist

Church in Medford, Long Island, and the ministry there.

It's a growing congregation.

We

still

have some doing

street

evangelism.

We're looking for more community

outreach.

It is

hard to believe that it's been 19.

Years, because it was like yesterday when I remember you first started the.

Church.

Yeah, in fact our first service was actually Father's Day

of 1996.

In.

Fact, I had the distinct privilege of being at your ordination exam.

Yes, that.

Was very interesting.

Yes, it was.

Twelve men and only three Calvinists on the.

Council.

I think that the roughest spot you had was because you're a.

Post -millennialist.

That's true.

Well, it was interesting, I don't know if you remember this, you know, I love little ironies, and I was ordained, it wasn't too

long after Easter, and we were using a classroom.

This was at Calvary Baptist Church up in Port Jefferson, and all the Easter flowers had been taken away, and as I was

defending the doctrines of grace, I was surrounded by tulips.

And that was not by your design.

No, it wasn't by my design.

It was that was pointed out by somebody in the gallery.

Well, it's so great to have you as a.

Part of the program again, and we look forward to this discussion.

And if you have any, if anyone listening has questions regarding, you can ask questions

regarding Reformed Baptist distinctives in general and so on, but particularly we would love to hear

from you about ecumenism, what your questions are regarding that, the

cooperation of denominations, individual congregations,

and church members with other denominations, congregations,

and church members from different backgrounds, and of course that also would

include people from very similar backgrounds.

That is what we are discussing today, how are we to set up boundaries

and be obedient to the scriptures when we practice ecumenical relationships with other

professed Christians.

Why don't you first start off with what you would call a biblical definition of

rightful.

Ecumenism?

Well, I mean, I think even how we, I mean, obviously

defined ecumenism,

and that would,

they would define

that as the Roman

Catholics, and

from a biblical perspective,

members of the

Church

of Paradise, the one

discerning.

Well,

you are

a

Reformed.

Baptist, as has already been made clear, even by the name of your church.

There are some Reformed Baptists who really, even if they don't have it written down

somewhere, they only in practice have any kind of fellowship with

other Reformed Baptists, or at least others who are Calvinist.

Is that your practice, and if not, how do you go about, what are the boundaries that you have

fellowship with those that are not theologically Reformed or Calvinist?

Well, again, I think.

To come back to an

answer, aside from a very small slice of the

church, people just want

to deal

with

practice.

That's where

we, I

might think that

they,

even if the

person, I

shun that person.

It's a question of, you know, how

does the,

come right out with it?

I mean, obviously being a Reformed Baptist, and, you know, a member of an association,

I take a secessionist view of the sign gifts,

thinking on community outreach together.

Well, going back to who you allow

into.

The pulpit, you did say in that description that you wouldn't want them

advocating a non -cessationist view behind the pulpit, but you have

had a dear brother in Christ who's now with the Lord, Al Stein, who

was a pastor of the Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, and he

is thoroughly Calvinistic, especially now that he's in glory, but he was, before departing this

earth, a thoroughgoing Calvinist, but a non -cessationist.

And he also would have shared the abhorrence and the

opposition that you and I have to much of the extreme and dangerous and heretical practices in

the Pentecostal and Karas movement, even though that he was himself in that denomination,

and in fact an overseer in that denomination, and of course our mutual friend who is still with us, Pastor Jim

Campo of the Massapequa Church of God, which is a Pentecostal denomination, and Pastor Jim,

who doesn't define himself as a Pentecostal, is still nonetheless a, he's not a

hardcore continuous or non cessationist, but he isn't

a hardcore cessationist either, but he's a thoroughgoing Calvinist and believer in the doctrines of grace.

So you did welcome them to preach from your pulpit, so maybe if you could explain the.

Difference there.

Yeah, I think the relationship I had with

Al Stein was a casual relationship.

We were, in fact, we were a

headmaster of school

functions,

and something that's near and

dear to my heart, and

that is true, and my

congregate, the one time that he was in my, I

trust he would not bring up any areas of difference,

and he lived

up to

it.

And Al was one

of those men, and

by the way, I had the highest regard, and his views, and even though we

had some different, we were in line with

him a lot.

So I think that, I think I fit the criteria of guarding my pulpit.

I hope he's not,

well I hope he's listening.

I would say that to his face.

Yeah, well I think he even calls himself a non -cessationist Reformed Baptist or something like that.

And so we have the recognition that we have brothers in Christ who

disagree with us, and I'm not going to say they're trivial matters, but they disagree with us on

matters that are not damaging to the gospel, or blurring to the

gospel, or in opposition to the gospel.

And we feel free to, with folks like these, have

joint services where there's no expression or outward manifestation of

signed gifts or anything like that.

But then you come to the next category where you can have fellowship on a one -on -one level, or

in a level that is outside the confines of a church worship service, where

you're just a brother and a friend to a Christian who disagrees with you.

For instance, a Pentecostal brother who may be very sound in many ways, but he is

very zealous about his view on the gift of tongues

and other things, and really can't suppress speaking about it.

You wouldn't want him behind your pulpit, but you can have many areas of fellowship.

With somebody like that.

Absolutely.

And the key here is, and this is why I think we have to be careful of even how we define, you know, and not allow ourselves

to argue in ecumenical.

We might be defining those words.

I, there is myself, you know,

and

do

community outreach

projects.

We could necessarily have a joint worship service, and nor would that necessarily be beneficial.

And I think you have to be mature enough to recognize that those differences are there,

and still advance the kingdom.

How many times, not against us, they're with

their non -believers, then of course, but if they are true believers, we better treat them

as part of the Bible.

And I think sometimes in our, in our zeal for, can

shut out somebody who is a true believer and not even have fellowship with them.

And I think that's going to be.

Yeah, it's.

A very dangerous thing to set yourself up as an enemy to a individual,

an individual for whom Christ died.

And of course, Pastor Rich and I, being Reformed, we believe that Christ died for his elect

and for his church.

We don't believe that he died for every single human being that ever lived

and ever will live, even those who will be in hell, because we believe that his atonement was perfect.

He actually definitely atoned for the sins of those for whom he died,

and he definitely redeemed them and will bring him, will bring all of them

to glory with him.

So that's why I used that phrase before.

And, and of course, there are times when you, it's not, it's not necessarily a

theological issue that would bar you from full communion with another

church.

You may have a church down the road that has the same confession of faith that you do,

but if you believe that they're disobedient in some very serious matter, where they are not

disciplining either members or the leaders who have been involved in

unrepentant sin, that is, especially when it's open and scandalous, you wouldn't

want to join in union with them while that is continuing, would you?

No, I think.

You're absolutely right, and I just want to just refer back a

little

bit.

Remember in Romans 14, matters where we

have did was eating things that

somebody considered to be uncleaned.

And remember what he said.

He says, because of food your brother has heard, you are no longer walking according

to love.

And I think that's such a Christ died for them.

And how dare we, and injured the pride, and that's the whole

point that, that Paul is getting at in that, in that.

And now let's move on to.

The matter that is of most crucial importance

today, or the biggest problem that we see that has been going on for decades,

is the modern ecumenical movement.

And as you said earlier, you don't want to identify yourself as a part of the ecumenical movement, because that

phrase has a lot of baggage with it.

That has attached to it the notion, and there are obviously different

varieties and levels of this modern ecumenism.

You may have some who believe that you at least need as a common denominator

a belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and so on.

But even beyond that, there are even more liberal churches that have

fellowship with synagogues, and mosques,

and so on, and other institutions where Christ is rejected

and denied as being God in the flesh, and denied in his resurrection,

and so on, and all of his attributes, or his deity especially.

But if you could start with the most common one that affects even conservative

Christians today, or conservative professing believers today, you have many in the

conservative evangelical movement who are completely fine, their

conscience is not troubled by ecumenical relationships with the Roman Catholic

Church.

You have even Billy Graham.

The Billy Graham Crusades has had Roman Catholic priests participate

in counseling people who come forward for salvation.

That's what in their mind that they are doing when they come forward.

And the Billy Graham Crusade Association has a strict policy that if you are a counselor,

you cannot deter someone who comes to you, you cannot

deter them from returning to the Catholic Church.

In fact, I believe that if they are Catholic, that's the only place you can refer them to, if you could take up from there.

Yeah, I

mean,

I

think

this is exactly

where you

can partner with somebody who is preaching a different gospel, mitigates against what Paul says, you know,

and so that clearly, anybody who is teaching a

different way to be saved, there

we have to take a stand.

And in some cases, even a strong stand where somebody might

consider, in our day

and age, or you're wrong.

If you tell somebody you're wrong today, they say you're unkind.

Stand up, and when we have an error such as,

people will stand and say, no, that is not correct, that's not what the Scripture teaches.

And so how can you have fellowship with some different gospel?

So I think right there is, I mean, I think that's an easy one.

But now, that being said though, Chris, let me say this, I think we have to be careful how we deal with

individual Catholics.

There's a difference from decrying and standing against the doctrine of Rome,

and that's a big difference in dealing with individual Roman Catholics that we come in contact with.

And there, I think, then with love, with kindness, and to

gently persuade them of the error of the doctrine of Rome, and show them the truth.

Yes, there are Catholics who, either through naivete,

ignorance, and so on, of what their own church dogma is as a Catholic,

who actually believe in the biblical gospel.

And there are some who defiantly, as a Catholic, believe in the

biblical gospel, and choose to remain in the Catholic Church, because they think they're going to be

the next visitation of Martin Luther or something, and they think they're going to bring about

reform, or whatever reason it may be.

Sometimes it's just because they want to protect their marriage from

breaking apart, or they want to protect themselves from being shunned by

their own family.

It could be a number of things.

But there are Roman Catholics who do believe in the biblical gospel.

They very often have some of the other baggage of Rome, but that is the

crucial issue, isn't it?

The gospel.

Yes, it is.

And I would agree with you, because I have met, I have counseled with people who are just like that.

And I think that sooner or later, someone who is

in the Roman Catholic Church, and has come to this, I think

you'll find that sooner or later they do.

There comes a point where they realize that,

again, that's a.

Very difficult thing.

And lest people begin to think that we're just a couple of nasty, bigoted,

hateful people.

Long before you and I were born, the Council of Trent in the 1500s,

after the Reformation, anathematized or pronounced curses

upon those that believe in the gospel of the Reformation that you and I believe is biblical.

That anyone who would believe that good works are just the fruits of true

justification, and not any kind of a comeritus agent

with faith that we are accursed.

And so the onus is really upon Rome to retract that.

But it never has, and most likely never will, because that would be an admission that they declared something to be

dogma that wasn't true.

Yeah, and again, I think,

you know, as soon as you stand against something, somebody says that you're unloving.

You know, here at Hope, we don't preach, quote, an anti -Catholic,

and I don't want to be known as being anti anything.

I want to be known as being...

And I think how we teach and how we preach can give

a...

And that's where we have...

My wife is a former Catholic, and I would say that probably at least 50 of my

congregation are former Roman Catholics.

So, I mean, we don't do, quote, to

show them the error that they're and showing them

the love of...

I think that's,

you know, one of the

things that I constantly try to tell.

We have,

nod to the street, and

I think we need to be

careful that not only are we giving the true message,

concerned about the fact that we are giving the message, and in love,

and in an attitude, because that's exactly what Christ did.

When you look through the Scriptures and see how Christ, always out

of compassion and with style, I tell them, style counts.

You know, I mean, I can do several different ways of telling somebody they're going to hell.

I mean, I can do it, and, you know, pounding the table, you know, screaming at

them that you're going to hell, or I can, with tears in my eyes and with compassion,

admonish them if they don't repent they're going to hell.

And I choose the latter, I think, far too often,

because that's the pick of the general public, and especially to the media.

I think we have to be very cautious about when we stand before the media,

when we stand before, you know, judges.

We have to go to a break right

now.

If you'd like to.

Join us on the air with a question, you can email that question to ChrisArnzen at gmail

.com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please include your first name at least, and your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA, and please only remain anonymous if this involves a personal or private

and intimate matter that you do not want to make yourself publicly known in regard to.

So it's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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Tired of bop store Christianity?

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And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

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Well, welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Richard Jensen, who

is a retired homicide detective from the Suffolk County Police Department

on Long Island.

And he is now and has been for the last 19 years the pastor of Hope

Reform Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island.

And that is in Suffolk County, Long Island.

And just out of curiosity, let's just, before we revisit or return to, I should say, our

main theme, how did the calling to become a pastor become

known to you by God in light of the background of you being a police officer and you being a homicide

detective?

What was the things that occurred to transition you in the

realization of where your true calling was?

Well, I

closed out of my 20 in homicide as a detective sergeant.

And in investigating,

you

want to

make

sure

that

you're,

and

even though one

to share,

the guy didn't do that necessarily.

And it

was, and at

the same time, and he

was selecting a few men that he thought, and he started

a mentoring group.

And I

became,

that was how I,

a former,

knew Tom through

that.

And he actually left, I think he had about 15 years, and he didn't even wait for

retirement, but was called to the ministry and had become a pastor and has had a vibrant

ministry for many, many years there.

And he and I talked a little, you know, how do you know God's call and those type of things.

And he gave me some tremendous insight.

But I just started to realize that there was a greater calling.

I mean, here, I was called to help people after somebody had been killed, you know, and then putting the bad guys

away to the

ministry

before they get into trouble.

That, that's kind of the transition.

And my wife and I just started praying about it.

And, and sure enough, we, we started looking around after I had retired

ministry, wasn't sure if it was going to be pastoral ministry or not.

And I wound up being called by my own church.

Yes.

And I remember that well, and was a part, a member of the church that first

cooperated you, with you in the planting Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island.

And I hope some of our dear brethren and friends from that church are listening today.

In fact, from Hope Reformed Baptist as well.

But let me repeat our email address.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you have a question for Pastor Rich Jensen on our main theme of

ecumenism, and you can also ask general questions about Reformed Baptist doctrine

and practice and polity and so on.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we ask that you please give your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if outside the

USA.

And please only remain anonymous if it involves a personal and private matter.

And I want to announce before time runs out and I somehow forget to do it.

I want to make sure I announce Hope Reformed Baptist Church's website.

It's hopereformedli .net.

Hopereformedli, for Long Island, .net.

And we hope you visit that website often.

Going back to the Church of Rome, there's really some either

unintentional dishonesty, unconscious dishonesty or blatant dishonesty when it comes to

Rome's modern day face as being the kinder, gentler

denomination or church in regard to ecumenism.

Well, first of all, if you're not Roman Catholic and you do not believe that Christ

is physically bodily present in the Eucharist, you cannot receive their,

quote, quote, Lord's Supper or their Mass, and nor should you,

because it's a different ceremony.

They're not the same thing as many evangelicals naively sometimes think.

I've seen evangelicals at weddings and funerals and things like that in a Roman

Catholic church who actually go up and receive the Mass.

And I say to them later, why on earth did you do that?

Well, I'm just viewing it as the Lord's Supper in my head.

Well, they don't view it that way.

They certainly don't want you to do that.

And the second thing is, even though Vatican II declared you and I and

Protestants as separated brothers, we are not in the true church

according to them.

And as I said before, they have not made the Council of Trent at least the

anathemas in regard to uniquely Protestant beliefs.

They have not nullified those or recanted those.

Obviously, some of what was taught at the Council of Trent is

true, such as the Trinity and many other things that all Christians believe.

But I'm talking about specifically the unique things that Protestants believe, our opposition to venerating

images and saints and our opposition to all of the uniquely

held dogmas of Mary and all those things.

We are anathematized by the Roman Catholic Church because of those views.

Now, having said that, you would not obviously

cooperate in a worship service with the Roman Catholic Church down the corner, as

they do sometimes have these ecumenical services.

You would not invite a priest to speak in your pulpit.

What would you in good conscience be able to do as a church

with the Roman Catholic Church down the road or with individual Catholics?

I'm assuming that you would have no problem being involved in a right to life event as

long as you were not restricted in things that you believed were duties of

yours as a Christian and as long as you weren't compelled to do things

that you were violating your conscience.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

I could never do something as a joint effort of the Roman Catholic

Church.

I don't think I could do that.

But certainly in the realm of petitioning the government

for righteous laws and things, we would stand with the Roman Catholics on many areas

that way.

And in fact, let me tell you one way in which I was involved in something.

As you know, Chris, for seven years, going back a couple of years now, I was the headmaster of Grace

Christian Academy for Church and Merit.

And that's near and dear to my heart.

Christian education is near and dear to my heart.

I hope home education

will come

and attend from

many different churches to do

it at home.

And that has

been a great school.

I would attend a

yearly, an annual,

not

in that

form,

a Muslim school.

And just plain

and simple.

The interesting thing is while we were at the conference,

and that was keep their

hands out of education, you know, the parents' right to educate.

The Reformed Baptist School, we wanted to make sure that the state was not trying to interfere with what we taught

our students, just like the Jewish schools were interested in the same way.

While we were there, it was amazing at the unity that we had.

And we'd have several hundred people.

And at one of the meetings, I was asked

to, and I prayed a Christian prayer.

And, you know, and in the name of Jesus, amen, as was how I concluded.

I asked for God's blessing upon the, you know, the meeting that, you know, that the government

would see those lines.

Not one person came to me and said they were offended because I prayed in Jesus' name.

And, I mean, we had our own Christian

gathering and we had that meeting.

But in the main meetings, it was just general information concerning what's going on in New

York

State, favorable to parents who wanted

to.

It was very instrumental in that.

And I think that's a perfect example of people in the community without

compromising on our faith on iota.

In fact, that was one of the biggest, the thing was we could all respect,

and yet on these issues, we could come together.

By the way, I want to also let our listeners know that there are

also differing views amongst Roman Catholics today on how they

are to view Protestants like myself, who is a Reformed

Baptist, who have left the Catholic Church.

And Patrick Madrid, who is a very well -known Roman Catholic apologist, had his

own magazine that still may be in print, I'm not sure, or maybe it's an Internet forum, and he of course

has a radio program that he just recently stepped down from to

pursue other activities within his ministry, I believe, or his apostolate, or

whatever they call those organizations in the Catholic Church.

Patrick Madrid told me that I am in serious jeopardy of

going to hell unless I repent and turn to Rome.

And he viewed me differently than our mutual friend Dr. James R. White,

who even though he is in the front lines of the battle actually engaging

Roman Catholics in debate and refuting their teachings and writing

and so on, where I am merely helping him and orchestrating

events for him, facilitating him in these areas in the

theological arena, Patrick Madrid said that James White is not nearly

as much in danger as I am because he was never a Roman Catholic.

So they view me as an apostate.

Well, then again, so do many Reformed Baptists.

Well, we all certainly view you differently than James White, I can tell you that.

But the thing is here is that this isn't all just hugs and kisses

and sweetness.

There are Catholics who view, even I'm not even talking about strict

Latin Rite types of Catholics, I'm talking about mainstream conservative Catholics who would view

those who have left the Catholic Church as apostate and therefore in very serious jeopardy of going

to hell.

Well, you know what, Chris, on that vein, even to call somebody a Roman Catholic is

almost meaningless today because there are so many different brands.

I mean, look, we know what is the official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

But when you filter it down, you have so many

different views and how they apply that from one congregation to another

that can be called one thing under one parish and

something else under another.

I'll give you an example.

Family wanted me to come, and as I came

walking in,

he grabbed

me by the arm, pulled me in, and grabbed my arm so tight that I literally would have had to afford him

to get loose, okay?

What he wanted us to pray together, okay?

And to him,

this would be a big feather in his cap.

He prayed with a Reformed Baptist pastor.

You follow what I'm saying?

Oh, yeah.

And there are other priests who, if I walk through the door, stay out.

You know what I mean?

So it depends on individuals as well.

Yeah, well, there is a fallacy that is a major part of Roman Catholic

apologists that, first of all, there's over 30 ,000 Protestant

denominations.

That isn't even true, first of all.

I thought there were 30 ,000 Baptist denominations.

But the number isn't even true, and the number, when it was originally derived, I think maybe by the World

Council of Churches or something, they were including all non -Roman Catholics who profess a

belief in Jesus as Protestant.

So it was ridiculous.

But anyway, there are just as many divisions and differences

amongst Roman Catholics as there are amongst Bible -believing Christians, and perhaps

even more.

In fact, there are more, because you typically don't have arch

-liberals within Bible -believing Christian churches.

Now, you have false homosexual churches calling themselves evangelical today,

but they're clearly not in the same camp of theology or practice

as conservative evangelicalism, and they're not even in the same religion as we are,

basically.

And Robertson Jennings, basically, another Roman Catholic apologist

who I interviewed recently, he agreed that there's just as many divisions in the Roman Catholic

Church, but they have one church.

And he said that you Protestants, when you have a complaint that's serious enough about what

church you're in, you just pack up your bags and leave and start a new church.

But I told him, I think it may have been off the air, I told him that we're not really starting a new church.

We believe that all who are genuinely saved are in one true church, and that's the church Christ

established.

So, starting a new congregation or even a new denomination

because of convictions over theology and the seriousness of error in the group

that you once belonged to, that is not starting a new church, is it?

We believe in the Holy Catholic Church.

We believe in the Apostles' Creed.

There is only one true church.

And that's what you mean by Catholic with a small c, is the word universal?

Exactly.

Sure.

And in fact, in our church, when we recite the Apostles' Creed, I make sure that we leave Catholic

in there because some believe in the Holy Christian Church, you know?

But no, a Catholic...

But that's somewhat of what...

And

that is

that...

Oh, yeah, of course.

But he was using the concept of a whole new church as they view the Roman

Catholic Church.

When you started Hope Reformed Baptist Church 19 years ago, you didn't begin a new church.

You began forming a new fellowship of Christians in a specific congregation in Suffolk County.

Right.

And the email address here, if you have a question, we do have a couple of listeners who have already emailed questions, but if you have

a question, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Now, you brought up something that's also a dilemma that arises frequently

in the civic arena, the public arena, the gathering of

people from your village, town, city, in some kind

of a public event where prayer is a part of the celebration or event.

And our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White, has said that he will

never join in prayer with people such as

Roman Catholics who are committed to the Council of Trans Dogmas and so on,

and others who deny the gospel.

He will pray for them and perhaps pray over an event, but not with

others who deny the gospel.

And so we have events that come up like that all the time.

We have sporting events where you might be even in a sporting event yourself,

a high school game of some kind or what have you, and you might have somebody say, hey,

Pastor Rich, would you mind coming over here and perhaps you and Father O 'Reilly can say a

blessing upon the events today?

Things like that.

And where sometimes, in fact, another mutual friend of ours, Pastor Don Blend,

was asked to pray at the beginning of some kind of a public hearing in the

village of Lindenhurst or the town of Lindenhurst where he was specifically asked, please pray over the

processions that would be taking place, but please do not mention Jesus in your prayer.

And Don refused.

He said, I'm going to pray and I'm going to specifically mention the name of Christ, and he did.

So how do you react and how do you respond and what do you think is the proper

Christian response to that kind of a thing where you're being requested to join in on a

prayer with people that deny the gospel?

No, I would agree.

We have never, nor will I

ever, people who I would consider not to be Christian because prayer is an act of worship.

So, I mean, we would have to be careful.

It's different if I am asked to pray for a certain thing in a public venue, that's fine.

If they ask me and a Muslim to pray, I would have to decline that, all right, because that would

give an indication that I am in somehow agreement and we're praying to the same God and I don't think we are.

So I would agree with that.

I remember someone that we both know, Steve Camp, a Reformed Baptist Christian

recording artist who is now a pastor in Florida.

He did not want his child, I can't remember if it was a daughter or a son, to

participate in the prayers of the coach of, I think it may have been a soccer team,

that the coach was a Roman Catholic and he would pray over the team and Steve did not

want his child to be a participant of that, which they were very puzzled by because the

child professed to be a Christian and they knew that Steve, the father, was a Christian.

So how do you respond to that kind of a situation?

Yeah, that's getting a little bit dicier.

I don't know, I haven't even thought,

I mean, there are times where if you're praying,

for example, I will not pray along with him.

You may just...

I will go ahead and pretend that I'm praying along with him because I don't believe it's a biblical prayer, all right, but I'm not going to walk out,

I'm not going to do that.

I'm just going to stand there respectfully and he's going to do what he's going to do.

Yeah, you'll just stand there in silence and not give the appearance that you're praying.

No, no, of course not.

No, I would never do that.

Well, we have to go to a station break right now.

In fact, this is our last station break.

If you'd like to join us on the air, actually it's the last of two station breaks.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Pastor Rich Jensen, on ecumenism

or anything involving Reformed Baptist belief and practice in general,

you can join us at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orange, and if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is my dear friend of many years,

Pastor Richard Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island.

Their website is hopereformedli .net.

Hopereformedli .net.

Pastor Rich is a retired homicide detective.

In fact, was the youngest homicide detective in Suffolk County Police history,

and he is now and has been for 19 years the pastor of Hope Reformed Baptist Church,

and we hope you join us on the air.

We already do have a couple of questions, but we hope more folks join us on the air with a question for Pastor Rich at

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Before I continue with the interview, I want to announce that tomorrow, since we're doing a lot of

talking right now about Catholicism and Protestantism and so on, tomorrow

another very good friend of mine, Bill Webster, is going to be discussing his book,

The Gospel of the Reformation, and you do not want to miss this program.

As some of you may be wondering why very often on Iron Trump and Zion,

there is criticism of churches, not only Roman Catholic, but even other

professedly Protestant churches, whether they be mainline churches or evangelical.

There seems to be what may be in your mind nitpicking going on, but I can assure you

that that is not the case, that is not nitpicking.

These are things that we are disagreeing over that are very crucial and important matters, and

Bill Webster's book, The Gospel of the Reformation, not only distinguishes what the Reformers

believed in contrast to the Church of Rome from which they came, but

also it contrasts the very commonly held beliefs of

a very large segment, perhaps even the dominant segment of evangelicalism today, and how many

who would call themselves evangelical or Protestant have really abandoned or

perhaps were raised in a church that never even taught the genuine teachings of

the Reformation, which of course we who believe that we are following the

teachings of the Reformation believe we are following the teachings of Scripture, otherwise we would not be following them at

all.

That's tomorrow from 4 to 6 p .m., Bill Webster on Iron Sharpens Iron, that's 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time, and then the following day we have John Sampson

of a Reformed Baptist church in Phoenix, Arizona called King's Church,

and he is going to be continuing his discussion on objections to God's sovereignty

in election, and then we have on Friday, the 7th of August,

we have Mike Gaydosch, my former pastor, who was the original pastor of

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island, and before that Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island.

He is now the director of Solid Ground Christian Books, and we will be

having an interview with him, and we have yet to determine the topic that day, so tune in

and find out what we're going to talk about.

And I'd like to welcome to the Iron Sharpens Iron family of sponsors, a brand new sponsor

that just committed last week to being at least for a year to

begin with a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron, Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk,

Massachusetts.

That's Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts.

Pastor Mark Lukens is a precious brother in the Lord, and he deserves

to be congratulated as he is welcoming into his home newly adopted children, and

I join him in celebrating that, and the website for Providence Baptist Church

in Norfolk, Massachusetts is ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA, an abbreviation for

massachusetts .org, ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org.

And we are returning back to our discussion on ecumenism, biblical versus false,

and we were before the break discussing prayer, and the last thing that you mentioned, Pastor Rich, is

that if you were at a social event or a public event of some kind, or a non -Christian, no matter who the

person was, if they were praying over the event or the processions

that were about to follow, you would stand there respectfully, but you would neither pray nor

give the appearance that you were joining in the prayer.

No, what I

always

try to

do, I

believe

that's what I

would do.

We do have a listener from Long Island, New York, CJ in Lyndon Hearst, Long Island,

who asks, you've been speaking a lot of the fact that you do not have ecumenical

relationships or connections with Roman Catholics or the Roman Catholic Church.

What about Protestants?

What are the Protestant churches, if any, that you would not associate with?

Well, that's a very good question, and it really boils down to the fact that

it depends on what Protestant church, because some believe in the gospel, and as I just mentioned in my

announcement about Bill Webster's book, The Gospel of the Reformation, there are many Protestant churches that are not even

Christian.

Yes, and that's where we

have a lot of churches,

so that's an easy one.

And if there's so much false doctrine, I'm going to treat it that way.

By the way, I just want to let you know that George Whitefield called us, who were Baptists, ducks.

And he said why, he was lamenting over the fact that all of his Pato Baptist converts, well,

not all of them, but many of his Pato Baptist converts to Christianity were becoming Baptists.

He said, why are my little chicks becoming ducks?

I'm not even going to address that one, because I respect Whitefield.

I never put myself on a level with

that man

as well.

And

even

just

practically,

I

mean,

I have

trouble.

Ideological matters, it's not easy to get together that way.

We've started a case of Calvinistic,

and it's difficult every time we meet.

You know, somebody's missing, somebody can't be there, and that's just having to try to get the pastors together, you know, for mutual

edification and doing things together.

But I can give you one example of something that we do participate.

Every year, Word of Truth Churches in Farmingville, Pastor Bruce.

Yes, he was just my guest yesterday with Pennsylvania State Representative Stephen Bloom.

They were talking about the church and politics.

Oh, and he's a good guy to do that, too.

You know, each

year, coming

together.

And that's one way, and that has

to be.

And, of course, you have, each church has to be taken on an individual basis, just as

Christians, because you may have a church down the road that's an Episcopalian

church that celebrated the legalization of same -sex marriage and may even have a

homosexual priest, so -called, or minister, and

they are really an apostate church that has no resemblance to the genuine

scriptures or gospel.

And yet, you may also, maybe one block away from that or the next town over, have an

Episcopal church that is a 39 -articles,

Calvinistic, Anglican church, low church, et cetera, that may be

more resembling of your beliefs and practices than some First Baptist

church in the next corner.

Yeah, absolutely.

You take it on an individual basis.

Any

that

we did

was we made a

unifying

ghoul

held to

the church's

confession of

faith.

You need to understand that if you send your

childhood yourself,

but you can't make an argument that, oh, this goes against what your church is teaching.

No, this is a ministry of this church, and we're opening it up to all Christians of

any persuasion, as long as you understand this is what's going on.

At one point, I counted that we had, I think it was 49 churches from Nassau and Suffolk

County, and then some even from the city, represented.

We were told,

because that wasn't our goal, our goal was to educate the church.

But when it came up, we took a very specific stance.

For example, we even had teachers on staff who were Paedo -Baptists.

But if somebody asked me a question in chapel upon the proper, they're going to get Credo -Baptism,

okay?

And, in

fact, it's interesting

that some Christians believe in speaking in tongues, and others don't.

And her father was a Pentecostal pastor.

And I said, well, why don't you ask your father that question, you know?

I'm trying to weasel out of it, okay?

I want to know what you

think.

The sign gifts had

ceased and were with the signs of the apostles, etc., and she was very interesting.

And I wound up having a conversation with her father, who accepted it extremely well.

He said, look, you asked a question you had to answer honestly.

That's how we can come together, even when we disagree, if we understand that.

He had no problem with me explaining, you know, the Reformed Baptist view of that in

this setting.

I think that makes sense, doesn't it?

Yeah, of course.

And we do have an anonymous listener who says that the church that he is a member

of only has fellowship with other churches that only use

the King James version of the Bible.

And they not only must use it, but they must believe that it is the only true

version of the scriptures in existence.

Can you comment on this?

Is this too strict?

Well, obviously, since neither you or I are King James onlyists, I'm assuming you're going

to answer that, yes, that it's too strict.

And, in fact, it's superstitious, isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, I just don't understand people

who claim to only one translation.

Who happens to sponsor our program.

Do I get a cut?

Is there a stipend I get for mentioning that?

Well, I could give you a free copy of their genuine leather giant print Bible, if you'd like.

No, I'm good.

But I happen to be a big fan of it, because if you look at the development of it and how it's

translated and the criteria it's used, it is just so far superior to

so many of the other translations.

And so, firstly, yes, I think there's an error there to

hold that as a standard.

You can't get that from the Bible alone.

And then, since that is, in fact, an error to say that you have to use this translation and that's our means of

fellowship, they're cutting themselves off.

Where do you get that in the Scripture?

You know, it just doesn't make any sense.

Right, especially since the King James Version didn't exist when the Scriptures were being written.

Yeah, and that's true.

I would have a question, then.

What was the criteria before the King James Version?

That's right.

And, of course, we would differentiate between that, which would be

superstition, really.

Just like the Roman Catholic Church, in years past, had a superstition about the Latin language.

Yes.

And some still do, you know, think that the only valid mass is a

Latin mass.

And, of course, we wouldn't think any mass is valid.

But we would distinguish between that view and our brethren.

And you and I have Reformed brethren that we uphold as,

some of them, I would even include as modern -day heroes, for lack of a better term, but men I

really have learned much from and admired greatly, who have even preached at Grace Reformed

Baptist Church on Long Island, for instance, like Dr. Joel Beeke and my friend

John Greer of the Free Presbyterian Church in Northern Ireland, who preached at Grace

Reformed Baptist as well, who they, in their own churches, only use the King James

Version, and they have a denominational policy that all the pastors must preach and teach from it.

But they do not bar any kind of fellowship with others that have a differing view on that.

Yeah, I mean, I can understand that.

I mean, there

can be a

few Bibles, and

I have a

few, and that's fine.

Sometimes that's very helpful in the studies.

Sometimes you get a little...

And, of course, there are fundamentalists that really have an extreme

view of separation, where they won't fellowship with anyone who

fellowships with somebody that they disagree with and that kind of a thing.

You might have some fundamentalists say, I'm not going to fellowship with

this Reformed Baptist because one of his favorite authors is R .C. Sproul, and R .C. Sproul has

one of his favorite writers, Thomas Aquinas.

So, therefore, I'm not going to fellowship with this Reformed Baptist because of his love for R .C. Sproul.

That kind of chain reaction, extreme form of separatism, that can be equally

dangerous as willy -nilly ecumenism,

can it?

Yes, it certainly can, because they're setting up their own criteria.

The Bible alone is...

Now what

you do is...

And they're going beyond the Scriptures.

They would claim to hold the soul of Scriptura, yet they themselves are going beyond what the Scriptures...

And, I mean, there's...

Look, there is a...

There certainly is a place to sever fellowship,

even within...

You know, that is...

As far as I'm concerned...

Are you there, Pastor Rich?

Yes, I'm here.

Okay, because you immediately went silent there.

I was waiting for you to finish your laughing.

All right, I'm finished now.

You can go ahead.

No, that's all right.

We do have Arnie writing to us from Perry County, Pennsylvania.

He said...

He says,.

And

not a true believer.

The Bible mandate said that you can only marry in the Lord.

And I would never marry...

And then it's compounded by...

And you can't divorce marriage from the Gospel.

That's kind of an interesting statement.

You can't divorce marriage.

Oh, no pun intended.

Sorry.

But you can't do that.

You can't divorce marriage from the Gospel.

One of the purposes of marriage that God has given us... Is that it is

to tell us about the relationship of Christ and His Church.

And biblical marriage is patterned after that relationship.

So, I mean, clearly then...

If the Gospel is different from what the Roman Catholic Church teaches... And what the Bible

teaches...

Then clearly, how can you do that?

That doesn't make any sense.

I think it's going clearly against what the biblical mandate would be.

I know that there are brethren that you and I love and respect.

I'm not going to mention any names...

Because they may have changed their views or practices that I'm unaware of.

But we have friends who are in the pastorate...

Who do marry...

And perhaps you do, too...

Marry two unbelievers...

As long as they submit to a certain period of biblical counseling before they're married.

Do you participate in that?

Yes, I would.

Because...

And I'll tell you why.

I believe that marriage...

Marriage is a universal doctrine given to us by God.

It's not just for Christians.

It's for all men.

It's a creation ordinance.

And therefore, non -believers...

They have the right to be married as well.

And I believe rightfully that they should come to the Church for that.

You're actually...

You're restraining sin...

In at least that area of their lives...

If they are having extramarital relationships.

Sure.

And what I do is...

I give them a certain amount of biblical counsel.

And that would be one of the criteria for me to marry them.

They would have to submit...

Plus, I go over and tell them...

I give them what marriage is.

I said, if you want me to marry you...

You've got to listen to what I have to say.

And it's amazing how many non -believers have come and said...

Yes, okay.

We'll accept the counsel and everything else.

And of course, they're going to get the gospel in there as well.

And so far, I haven't had it where one of them got saved and the other one didn't.

And I couldn't marry them.

That would be...

And we're going to go to our last break.

This time, it is our last break.

And shoot over an email if you have one.

We're running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And we hope to hear from you very soon.

Because, as I said, we are running out of time.

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Tired of box store Christianity?

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final half hour.

Actually, we have less than a half hour in our discussion with Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope

Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island.

Their website is hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli .net.

We've been discussing ecumenism, biblical versus false, and in a minute we're going to transition

over to a brief discussion on the evangelistic efforts that Pastor Jensen is

participating in to Columbia.

But before we go into that, we have another anonymous listener who wanted to know,

since you stated earlier that you do not believe in marrying believers to

unbelievers, are there any circumstances where you would make an exception?

For instance, if the believer, either through a lapse in judgment or

a temporary lapse into sin, impregnated a girl whom he loved who

was not a believer, repented of the act, but wanted to be responsible to

take care of a resulting child, would that be an appropriate thing for the believer

to marry the unbelieving girl or woman who is pregnant?

To take care of that child,

evangelizing, careful not to

try to force the person into that, you know.

Right, and I'm going to assume that you would certainly believe that the man

responsible for the act of impregnating a young lady

or a lady of any age, that he must provide for that child whether he is the woman's

husband or not.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, you would believe that being a deadbeat father is just as grievous as being a man marrying an unbeliever,

wouldn't you?

Oh, of course.

Of course.

No, you know, a man who gets a woman pregnant, he

obviously is responsible.

And in fact, his obligation is to marry her.

Or if he was a believer and the woman was not.

Yeah.

Yeah, either way.

And I'm assuming that there could be a season of time where obviously we

believe that only God gives the increase and that humans like us only plant,

we plant in water.

But I'm assuming there would be a season of time that you would believe it would be legitimate for

special counseling in the word of God and evangelism

uniquely with the hopes that this woman would convert, not give a false conversion testimony,

but in hopes that she would convert so they could be married.

Yeah, I mean, in fact, I gave a short answer, but any time you have a situation like that,

there needs to be extensive counsel given.

And I mean, that's something that goes without saying.

I know all and

out of

favor, any time

you have, you know, make a mistake and

compound one sin upon another, because people have a tendency of

responding emotionally.

Christian in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, wants to know if music,

the type of music and the style of music that one church uses in their

worship services, can that be a reason to cut off fellowship

or a reason not to have ecumenical relationships with them?

It's not a question of how old or what,

and we have it pretty much.

Anybody who wants to bring out, I

don't think necessarily, and are pretty much

fluff theology that

we are friends have very

contemporary, but we haven't cut fellowship.

We've

joined worship

service people in my congregation.

Yeah, isn't it ironic that our mutual friend, Pastor Jim Capo, he has music that is more

reserved in his congregation than many Reformed Baptists do.

Yeah, we're not, and in fact,

we are more of

this

in a

worship

service.

The purpose of music in a worship service is to give the congregation, who are the true worshipers,

to what has been preached or what has been read.

And what better way than to respond with word.

In fact, it has to be theologically correct.

And, of course, even though you might disagree with an exclusive

somnity church, you could hardly fault them for not wanting to

violate their conscience by having a joint worship service with a church that insists on

using hymns or contemporary music.

Or what have you in the worship service when they believe out of conscience and

out of theological conviction that the Psalms are the only songs appropriately sung, even today

in the New Covenant.

Now, obviously, you disagree with that, but you could still respect their judgment in saying, I'm sorry, we can't have a

joint worship service with you.

Oh, no, we have a time where we're going to have a joint.

We do that in a heartbeat.

You mean you would use only the Psalms is what you mean?

Oh, absolutely.

Right, right.

Absolutely, because that's common ground on which we can come together,

and I

would have no

trouble with that.

Yeah.

In fact, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, they have a psalter in every pew along with the hymnals.

The best argument I heard for being against exclusive somnity, not to go on a rabbit trail here,

but the best argument against it is that it prohibits, then, the congregants for actually

using the specific name of Jesus Christ in song, even though you are singing even in the

psalter to Jesus, but not by name, not by his name, Jesus.

And the best argument for at least incorporating the Psalms, in addition to them

being inerrant as far as being a part of the God -breathed canon, is that you are connecting with

every generation of the saints of God going back even to the Old Testament.

Yeah.

And again, yes, clearly, I mean, there are so many Psalms that are Messianic,

and ultimately, of course, everything is in the Old Testament anyway,

to the extent that we can see.

We're a little

bit

below

content, and

the

style

of

design

responds

to give the congregation the chance to respond to what is,

they are the true worshipers.

Yeah, and I actually believe, Were You There could qualify as a blues song, because of the,

and a lot of the old black gospel and Negro spiritual songs are

very similar to that melody.

In fact, I've challenged some of my Christians, put

some of

this, and it

is lamenting.

Why not?

Amen.

And in these 11 minutes that we have left, why don't you talk a little bit about your

evangelistic efforts to Colombia?

What's happened, it was a little over a year and a half ago, invited, and I

taught in a seminary down in the city of Medellin, Colombia, which

is the home of Pablo

Escobar,

to train pastors and

start to.

Paul Washer?

I think Paul Washer, and

not only

just

in Colombia.

And a lot of this, you know, actually stems back.

That's Reformed Baptist Mission Services, for those of our listeners unfamiliar with that acronym there.

The men that he has, which is

another Reformed,

I think it was in Ecuador, one of the men that was trained, and who I know,

of grace, and they excommunicated him, they throw him out of the church,

but they've gathered around him, and they said, we want you to start a new church.

And tons of people are coming to find out, what is this going on?

And he's actually in a better position than he was in his other church.

From Argentina, to Venezuela, to just amazing.

And many of these places are probably going to start being the primary

areas of the world launching missionary efforts, even to this country that we live in.

We have such a pride of America, and we very often

aren't even really recognizing the fact that the church in some areas of the world, perhaps because of the

persecution that existed there, has really become on fire with

the gospel, and in many ways puts the church of America at large to shame.

Don't these churches that are springing up globally in some areas?

That's true.

In

fact,

as

I

preached,

same voice inflection he added down to it, and down,

and we're

praying now that that

would be coming.

And of course, our listeners can go to hopereformedli .net to even find out more

about those evangelistic efforts in Colombia, to see how they can be involved in some way

or support those efforts in some way through contacting you.

That's hopereformedli .net.

And as we conclude, since our main topic was ecumenism,

I think that, and I'll let you sum up your most heartfelt beliefs

that you want to etch in the hearts and minds of our listeners before this broadcast is over, but

isn't the most vividly clear example that we have in the New Testament

that we cannot have ecumenical relationships with those who deny the gospel

is Paul in relationship to the Judaizers?

Because after all, from what we know, from what is actually said in the

epistles in the New Testament about the Judaizers, for all we know, they

agreed with Paul and the disciples on

everything except they insisted on circumcision.

And that was enough to make Paul recoil in horror and reject

them as having a false gospel.

And he said that if anybody brings those Christians a

gospel other than the one he had preached, even if it was himself or an angel from heaven, that they are to be

accursed.

And if Paul couldn't have an ecumenical relationship with the Judaizers, how can we

have ecumenical relationships with the Church of Rome and others who do far more than

just add one detail to the gospel such as circumcision?

And if you could sum up everything as we conclude, Pastor Rich.

Yeah, I agree with you completely.

But then on the other side of the coin, I mean, there's no question that we have to be discerning.

Sisters and elders, we have to be under shepherds.

And of all the true believers, it is

that union that we have.

And so we have to strike that right balance.

I know there are Christians out there who don't like the word balance.

And so we have to strike the right chord.

We have to shun those who are not true believers.

We can't have Christian fellowship with them.

On the other hand, those who are, we are one with them.

And we need to treat them as such and work with them in such a way that even where we

have differences, the world would look at us and say, look at even how they handled the differences.

You know, they're handling their differences in a gracious and loving manner.

How can these differences die for that person?

I have to love that person.

And I have to show that love even when we might have some differences.

I'm not talking about compromise.

Right.

And if you totally isolate yourself from these erring brethren, how on earth are you going

to have any positive influence on them?

That's exactly right.

And, of course, we can even learn, and often do, learn from people that we disagree with

on one issue.

They may be far more obedient to Christ in other areas of their lives and of their practice as a church.

You know, I've often said this, you know, I have...

Yes, and their willingness to reach out to the, those

who are considered the scum of the earth, the pariah of humanity by

civilized so -called people, those in the inner cities who are prostitutes and

homosexuals and drug addicts.

The outreaches to this segment of society is very typically Pentecostal.

Yes, it is.

And we have to go now, Pastor Rich.

I know that your website is hopereformedli .net.

I look forward to having you back on this program very soon.

All right.

Goodbye, Chris.

Good talking to you.

And I hope everybody listening will always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.