Who was the Founder of Christianity? Jesus or Paul? Part 1

Honourable guests, I'd like to start by greeting you with the universal Islamic greeting of Christmas. Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah Almighty be upon all of you.

I'd like to welcome you to this evening's programme, which is a dialogue between two senior international scholars of comparative religion, representing their respective faiths. We are pleased to have with us this evening from Phoenix, United States, Dr. James White, and our local man, Brother Bashir Vahna.

The topic for tonight's dialogue is, who is the true founder of Christianity, Jesus or Paul? I think between the Muslims and the Christians, there appears to be some form of contention as to what role Paul had played after Jesus Christ.

So hopefully this evening, we will hear some exciting arguments in intellectual and economic faiths, presenting those particular arguments. My name is Mohamed Kouvadia, and I will be your chair for this evening.

House rules for this evening include that I, as the chairperson, must be respected at all times. Speakers have been allocated time limits, and they will stick it near to the time of occasions. Questions by audience members must not be longer than one minute, and must be strictly relevant to the topic.

The meetings will be conducted in an orderly, respectful, and dignified manner. Applause for speakers should only take place after the speaker has concluded his address. Chanting, heckling, and the like are strictly forbidden.

Both the audience and the participants must comply with these arrangements. For security reasons, no weapons will be allowed. Any journalist reporting on this event must be objective. They should seek comments from panelists on both Muslim and Christian sides, and objective reporting is therefore strongly encouraged.

The format for this evening's program is as follows. We will hear our first speaker, Ashif Vania, introduce the topic to us for a period of 30 minutes. Brother Farhan is our timekeeper on the extreme left.

He will buzz us in 8 minutes before the conclusion of the time, beginning at 1 minute. The second speaker will be Dr. James, and he will also talk for 30 minutes. The first speaker, Bashir, will rebut for 10 minutes, and then followed by a further rebuttal by Dr. James White of 10 minutes.

We then will have a second rebuttal of 5 minutes each between the speakers. Ladies and gentlemen, thereafter we will have a crossfire where each speaker will be given the opportunity to pose questions to each other, but this will take no longer than 10 minutes.

Question time should run between 20 and 30 minutes, and I urge all of us, if you want to prepare a question, to come forward then at that particular forum and ask the question directly to the speaker.

Thereafter we will have a final summation for 5 minutes between the speakers. Ladies and gentlemen, the first speaker then will be Bashir Vania. Bashir Vania is a local man. He is from Malaysia. He is the director of the Islamic Information Center.

He has debated many national and international apologists. He has written very many booklets and articles on Islam and comparative religion. Ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome Bashir Vania. In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful.

Jesus and Muslims Share Common Practices

Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I think that most people here will not be surprised when I state that as Muslims we regard Jesus, peace be upon him, as a creator of Islam and that we regard him as a messiah, the Christ.

Christians and Muslims share Jesus, but I think that what confronts both Christians and Muslims is the wide and differing perceptions of Jesus between Christians and Muslims. For example, I think most Muslims would argue that in essence Muslims do try and follow the example of Jesus.

In Luke chapter 2 verse 21 we read when Jesus was 8 days old he was circumcised and called Jesus and generally Muslim males are circumcised. In Matthew chapter 4 verse 8 we are told that Jesus fasted for 40 days continuously.

We cannot imitate Jesus, but we can emulate him, so we fast 40 days during the month of Ramadan, sunrise and sunset. Luke chapter 10 verse 5, Jesus instructed his disciples that when you come across somebody you say shalom aleikum, peace be upon you and it is Muslims who make it a point of doing that.

Jesus as a devout Jew worshipped 3 times a day, Muslims worshipped 5. Matthew chapter 2 verse 38, Jesus tells on his face that he worshipped God, Muslims worshipped the same. The hygiene practices of Jesus are similar to ours.

I am not going to elaborate, but you can look at Leviticus chapter 15, Leviticus chapter 11 and so forth. I can go on, but I think you get the point. If you don't, I will spell it out. The idea being that Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Christ, was not the founder of the religion which bears his name, Antioch.

Paul as the Founder of Christianity

Rather, I am arguing that it is Paul who is the true founder of Christianity. It is not a new idea, but I like to approach it from a theological perspective. I understand that many Muslims do not know Paul, so I think at this point it would be wise of me to try and give a brief background of Paul and who he really was.

Firstly, Paul was a devout Jew, a Pharisee. He initially persecuted the early followers of Jesus. He was a citizen of Rome. He changed his name from Saul to Paul. The interesting thing is that there is no evidence that he met Jesus, peace be upon him, in his lifetime.

He claims that he had a spiritual experience in which he met the heavenly Christ, and thereafter he claims that he had a spiritual connection with Jesus. All this is to be found in the book of Acts, chapter 22, verse 35, Acts 13, verse 9, 1 Corinthians 14, verse 9, and so forth.

Paul's contribution towards the New Testament, I think, is also quite interesting. You know, the Bible is divided into two, Old Testament, New Testament. The New Testament begins with the birth of Jesus.

And, if one looks at the New Testament, we have what is called the four canonical Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Most Christian scholars say that the three Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are synoptic.

In other words, they view the life of Jesus with one eye. John, slightly differently. So, in essence, we can say that the New Testament contains two books on the life and times of Jesus. If one looks at the writings of Paul, there are 13 letters or 13 books of Paul.

Namely, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, the two eschatological letters, 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, the three pastoral letters, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, and of course, Philemon.

Some scholars say that Paul also wrote the book of Hebrews, but I'm sure that my brother James here will say that that is not really relevant to this discussion, so we will stick to those 13 letters of Paul.

Paul tended to establish churches. For example, when he established a church in Rome, he at times wrote a letter to the church in Rome, Rome is known as Romans, and he wrote two letters to the first Corinthians and the second Corinthians, and so forth.

Paul's letters generally make up about 50 of the New Testament, and the books of Paul, I mean of Jesus, 70%. So in terms of numbers, one can argue that Paul is already ahead. But I think there is something a little more interesting.

Paul's Claims of Revelation and Spiritual Fatherhood

Paul makes it a claim. For us to understand Paul, we need to understand his claims. In 2 Timothy, 32 verse 8, Paul admits and says, look, remember Jesus Christ raised from the dead, descended from David.

This is my gospel. Not necessarily the gospel of Jesus. And he continues, Galatians chapter 1, verse 11 and 12, he says, I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel that I preach is not something that man made up.

I did not receive it from any man, rather I received it as revelation from Jesus Christ. So, Paul claims to have received revelation from Jesus Christ. And, in this new dispensation, and I say new because none of the other disciples turned out to be as bold as Paul.

In this new dispensation, Paul regards himself as the spiritual father of the church, so to speak. He says in 1 Corinthians 4 verse 15, Though you had 10 ,000 guardians in Christ, I became your father through the gospel.

So you would agree that these are quite impressive credentials. The problem is that many of the followers of the early church had their doubts about Paul. And in 2 Corinthians 13, verse 3, towards the end of 2 Corinthians, Paul challenges this.

He says, how dare you question my authority? Why are you questioning the fact that I am receiving revelation from Jesus? And, if one looks at 1 Corinthians, we find that this standard created some confusion.

Because Paul writes there, he says, there are followers amongst you, my brothers. Some of you say, I follow Paul. Others say, I follow Peter. Others say, I follow Jesus. Then there would not be any followers amongst us.

I think Jesus set a standard from which we can judge truth from falsehood. In the gospel of John 13, verse 16, Jesus says, Truly, truly I say unto you, a servant is not greater than the master. So, the implications of Jesus' statement are quite clear, I think.

He is stating that, look, if Jesus the master gives a ruling, and the servant, his disciple, contradicts that statement, then the teaching of the master takes precedence. Now, I just want to know, right here and now, if any of my Christian brothers and sisters object to the standard of Jesus.

If you do, lift up your hands. No? Excellent. Now we can continue. Now, to gain clarity between the teachings of Jesus and Paul, I think the best thing to do is to put these teachings side by side. And in so doing, I intend to deal with the fundamentals of Christianity.

Namely, firstly the concept of God. Then the idea of atonement. The concept of salvation. The importance of the laws of Moses, that is the Mosaic law. And finally, if we have time, I will look at, briefly, at some additional issues.

The Shema, the Trinity, and the Hypostatic Union

Let us start with the core issue. The concept of God. Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, a scribe comes to Jesus and says very humbly, Good master, what is the first commandment? Jesus replies, Jehovah Israel, the Lord of God, the Lord is One.

Called the Great Shema, the Great Call. It is the call of all the prophets from Adam right up to Jesus. Jesus does not bother and he does not define or redefine monotheism. In Hebrew, He takes the simple concept of monotheism in a whole new direction.

Instead of the Shema, he emphasizes and develops a new article of faith. Namely, the common Christi, the human Jesus. In Philippians, chapter 2, verse 9, today the Lord says, Even though Jesus was in the form of God, He emptied himself, taking the form of a servant and likeness of man.

So Jesus emptied himself of his divinity. This process is known as chemosis. So, clearly, this idea of a man God, of God emptying himself of his divinity, is something new. Not sanctioned by Jesus. Now the question is, are we prepared to accept the masters or the servants?

For me as a Muslim, that is easy to answer. Paul continues, in Colossians, chapter 2, verse 9, Paul boldly says, For in Christ of deity lives in bodily form. Now if you take this text literally, it means that Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with God.

He is truly God and truly man. This is known as the hypostatic union. This is a Unitarian. He says, but how can this be? We have a father and a son. A father is somebody who gives life. A son is somebody who receives life.

So how can the son be equal to the father? Jesus, peace be upon him, himself says, John 14, verse 28, he says, My father is greater than I. So Jesus is not claiming equality with God. Indeed, if you want to look at the Quran, chapter 5, verse 1, verse 9, the Quran depicts a scene on the Day of Judgment.

The Bible is going to question Jesus. And say, who is the son of Mary? And the evidence is quite interesting. The word here is utah and tah. Utah means you said, that you. Who is the son of Mary? Did you yourself say that you are God?

I know other people are saying it. The implication is, I want to know from you. Did you yourself say that? In worship, me and my mother as well, is that? Jesus will say, glory be to thee. Never would I say what I have no right to say.

And indeed, if I peruse the words of Jesus, no way does Jesus say, I am God. Again, there is a problem between what Jesus said and what Paul said. Let us turn our attention to the doctrine of atonement.

Atonement, Sin, and the Blood of Jesus

Let me explain briefly what the doctrine of atonement is. Man is son, and man is represented by Adam. And in choosing to sin, man has changed himself from God. So God then had to come down to reconcile himself to man by giving up his life.

And Paul says, despairingly, all have sinned, all for short the glory of God. Romans chapter 3 verse 23. In other words, everyone of us is tainted with this original sin. And only Jesus, the blood of Jesus can wash it away.

In Ephesians chapter 1 verse 7, Paul alleges, he says, In him, that is Jesus, we have redemption through his blood for the forgiveness of our sins. In a nutshell, this is the doctrine of atonement. The big question is, did Jesus share this viewpoint?

In Matthew chapter 23 verse 35, Jesus says, He accuses all of Israelites. He says, upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to Zechariah. Further he says, in Luke chapter 1, chapter 5 verse 32,.

By the sinners to repentance. So by saying that there are righteous people in the world, innocent people, Jesus had no idea what tainted with some sort of original sin, which his blood had to wash away from us.

And as for dying for the resurrection, and so forth,. Well, again, let us listen to the voice of the canonical gospels. Matthew chapter 30 verse 34. Matthew informs us, he says, Jesus spoke to the crowd in parables.

Indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable. So Jesus, when he spoke to the people, he spoke in parables. Now a parable, really, is a little story with a moral connection. For example, the fox at the graves.

Once upon a time, a fox was walking along, he sees a delicious bunch of grapes. He jumps out, he tries to reach it, he cannot reach it, and in his fury he says, Ah, those grapes are sour anyway. So, it's a story, a morally, sometimes if you can't get what you want, you tend to be a monkey.

And that is the way Jesus talked to people. There is not a single parable narrated by Jesus about his divinity, his death by crucifixion, dying for the sins of humanity, his resurrection. You don't find that astonishing?

Jesus spoke to the people only in parables and he doesn't say anything about the beliefs of Paul and Christianity. Jesus, like Muslims, they accepted that men were good, but we, they accepted that the God that we believe in is a God of forgiveness.

And he was willing for somebody to die for our sins. So much for atonement. Let us go on to the next point of contention, that is, the idea of salvation. In other words, salvation asks the question, how can man be saved?

How can we go to heaven? What is the key to heaven? Paul is elegant. He says, and I quote, Romans 9, If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

In a nutshell, a formula for entering paradise. That if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, that's it. He tells the people, he says, Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Only those who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day, the day of judgment. Many of you will come to me and say, Lord, Lord, did we not profess anything in your name? Did we not do many mighty works in your name?

Get away from him. How can she enter? That Jesus raised from the dead. That his blood washed away the sins of humanity. In short, Jesus seems to suggest, the Qur 'an says the same thing, chapter 103, The relevance of the Torah or the law of Moses' law.

The Mosaic Law and Paul's Rejection of It

Now Paul, he dismisses the laws of Moses. It's unnecessary. It was there for a time, great, but now it's unnecessary. And I'm quoting here, Galatians chapter 2 verse 16, it says, Amenities were justified through faith in Jesus Christ.

We believe in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not to have works of the law, because the works of the law tie some rules, regulations. Somehow the Holy Spirit will enter you, you will do generally good works.

Forget the law of Moses. Jesus' view, 23 verse 1 through 3, Jairus turns to the people, he says, The scribes and the pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, obey them, but do not do as they do, for they preach, but do not practice.

So Jesus is saying, look, the scribes and the pharisees, they teach you the law of Moses. I want you to listen to them and follow it. But don't do what they do. They preach, but they do not practice. He is emphasizing.

In another day, in another message, Jesus says, Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven. Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees.

Simple. So, we have a problem. Paul rejects the laws of Moses. Jesus emphasizes it. 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 16, Peter says, There are things hard to understand from Paul's letters. Paul is very difficult to understand.

Yes, some people argue that Jesus is a fool. But let us look at some of the letters. Look, bless those that persecute you. Romans, Paul responds differently. He tells the people to leave the righteous anger.

I wish those who unsettle you would go and emasculate themselves. Don't think Jesus, peace be upon him, would take the kind. Seriously, God himself has emasculated. Indeed, he didn't say that. Circumcision in such a way.

The way Paul does with contempt. Paul advises Timothy, he says, But use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. 1 Timothy chapter 5 verse 23. I don't know if Paul here, as he claims to have received, in this instance, revelation from Jesus.

Where he tells Timothy, He says, look, I know you have a stomach problem. You have ulcers. You have frequent ailments. Stop drinking water only. That's the problem. My doctor advised me, he said, Thank goodness you don't drink wine.

Please, go away from that. I'm not too sure if Paul advised this, but if he did, Then I would suggest all Christians should follow Paul's advice. It's hard to understand, as Peter says, But to prevent a person who is drinking water, which is very good for him, He says, listen, stop drinking water only.

Drink wine frequently and you will feel better. Give that advice. He would let Paul speak in his own defence. In 1 Corinthians chapter 3, Paul sternly says, Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says, Jesus, be cursed.

And second, you can't say, Jesus is cursed, was cursed. Cursed be Jesus. Wrong. Accept that. Now, it's interesting, I think, that on that basis, You cannot be speaking by the Spirit of God. In Galatians 3 verse 13, Paul says, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having himself become a curse for us.

For it is written, Curse to everyone who hangs on a tree. Now, was it the law? Despite, cursed. They say, look, Jesus was cursed. He became a curse for us. So, it's a real problem here. On the one hand, he says, you cannot be speaking by the Spirit of God.

If he says Jesus was cursed, he is cursed. On the other hand, he says, hold on, the essence. Jesus was cursed. He became a curse for us. In 1 Corinthians 10 verse 14, Paul says, I think I have the Spirit of God.

Well, maybe he does. But the problem is, that the Spirit of God that Jesus had, and he had, seems to be clashing. Quite violently. And I need to go back. I asked you, I said, look, are you happy with the standard set by Jesus?

And you all said, yes. And I tried to demonstrate. And I'm sure my brother, James, will try and prove me wrong. But I tried to demonstrate that there is a direct clash between the teachings of Jesus, while he was on this earth, and the teachings of Paul.

And I think that the ultimate question is, who do you accept? The teachings of Jesus, of Paul, and I'm going to ask him to be the judge for now. Thank you so much.