Who was the Founder of Christianity? Jesus or Paul? Part 1

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Who was the Founder of Christianity? Jesus or Paul? Part 2

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Honourable guests, I'd like to start by greeting you with the universal Islamic greeting of peace.
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Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon all of you.
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I invite you now to come to this evening's program. which is a dialogue between two senior international scholars of comparative religion, representing their respective faiths.
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We are pleased to have with us this evening from Phoenix in the United States, Dr. James White, and our local man,
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Brother Bashir Vahna. The topic for tonight's dialogue is, who is the true founder of Christianity, Jesus or Paul?
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I think between the Muslims and the Christians, there appears to be some bone of contention as to what role
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Paul had played after Jesus Christ. So hopefully this evening, we will hear some exciting arguments in intellectual and economic faiths, presenting those particular arguments.
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My name is Mohamed Bouvardia, and I will be your chair for this evening. The house rules for this evening include that I, the chairperson, must be respected at all times.
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Speakers have been allocated time limits, and they will stick to adhere to the time limitations. Questions by audience members must not be longer than one minute, and must be strictly relevant to the topic.
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The meetings will be conducted in an orderly, respectful, and dignified manner.
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Applause for speakers should only take place after the speaker has concluded his address.
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Chanting, heckling, and the like are strictly forbidden. Both the audience and the participants must comply with these arrangements.
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For security reasons, no weapons will be allowed. Any journalist reporting on this event must be objective.
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They should seek comments from panelists on both Muslim and Christian sides, and objective reporting is therefore strongly encouraged.
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The format for this evening's program is as follows. We will have our first speaker,
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Bashir Valia, introduce the topic to us for a period of 30 minutes. Brother Farhan is our timekeeper on the extreme left.
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He will buzz us in eight minutes before the conclusion of the time, beginning at one minute. The second speaker will be
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Dr. James, and he will also talk for 30 minutes. The first speaker,
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Bashir, will rebut for 10 minutes and then follow by a further rebuttal by Dr. James White of 10 minutes.
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We then will have a second rebuttal of five minutes each between the speakers. Ladies and gentlemen, thereafter we will have a crossfire where each speaker will be given an opportunity to pose questions to each other, but this will take no longer than 10 minutes.
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Question time should run between 20 and 30 minutes, and I urge all of us, if you want to prepare a question, to come forward at that particular forum and ask the question directly to the speaker.
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Thereafter we will have a final summation for five minutes between the speakers. Ladies and gentlemen, the first speaker then will be
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Bashir Valia. Bashir Valia is a local man. He is from Malaysia.
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He is the director of the Islamic Information Center. He has debated many national and international apologists.
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He has written very many booklets and articles on Islam and comparative religion. Ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome
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Bashir Valia. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.
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I begin in the name of God, most gracious, most merciful. Gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen,
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I take it that most people here will not be surprised when I state that, as Muslims, we regard
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Jesus, peace be upon him, as a creator of Islam, and that we regard him as Al -Masih, the
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Christ. Christians and Muslims share
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Jesus, but the problem, I think, that confronts both
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Christians and Muslims is the wide and differing perceptions of Jesus between Christians and Muslims.
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For example, I think most Muslims would argue that, in essence,
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Muslims do try and follow the example of Jesus. In Luke chapter 2 verse 21 we read, when
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Jesus was 8 days old, he was circumcised and called Jesus. And generally, Muslim males are circumcised.
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In Matthew chapter 4 verse 8 we are told that Jesus fasted for 40 days continuously. We cannot imitate
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Jesus, but we can emulate him. So we fast 40 days during the month of Ramadan. Sun rises and sets.
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Luke chapter 10 verse 5, Jesus instructs his disciples that when you come across somebody, you say, shalom aleikum, assalam aleikum, peace be upon you.
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And it is Muslims who make it a point of doing that. Jesus as a devout
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Jew worshipped three times a day. Muslims worshipped five. Matthew chapter 2 verse 38,
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Jesus came on his face and he worshipped God. Muslims tend to do the same. The hygiene practices of Jesus are similar to ours.
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You can look at Matthew chapter 15, Matthew chapter 11 and so forth.
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I can't go on, but I think you get the point. If you don't, I will spell it out.
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The idea being that Jesus, peace be upon him, who was a Christ, was not the founder of the religion which bears his name and title.
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Rather, I am arguing that it is Paul who is the true founder of Christianity.
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It's not a new idea, but I'd like to approach it from a theological perspective.
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I understand that many Muslims do not know Paul. So I think at this point, it would be wise of me to try and give a brief background of Paul and who he really was.
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Firstly, Paul was a devout Jew, a Pharisee. He initially persecuted the early followers of Jesus.
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He was a citizen of Rome. He changed his name from Saul to Paul.
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The interesting thing is that there is no evidence that he met Jesus, peace be upon him, in his lifetime.
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He claims that he had a spiritual experience in which he met the heavenly
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Christ. And thereafter, he claims that he had a spiritual connection with Jesus.
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All this is to be found in the book of Acts, chapter 22, verse 35, Acts 13, verse 9, 1
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Corinthians 14, verse 9, and so forth. Paul's contribution towards the
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New Testament, I think, is also quite interesting. You know, the Bible is divided into two, Old Testament, New Testament.
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The New Testament begins with the birth of Jesus. And if one looks at the
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New Testament, we have what is called the four canonical Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
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Most Christian scholars say that the three Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are synoptic.
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In other words, they view the life of Jesus with one eye. John, slightly differently.
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So in essence, we can say that the New Testament contains two books on the life and times of Jesus.
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If one looks at the writings of Paul, there are 13 letters or 13 books of Paul.
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Namely, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians.
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The two eschatological letters, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians. The three pastoral letters, 1
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Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, and of course, Philemon. Some scholars say that Paul also wrote the
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Hebrews, but I'm sure that my brother James here will say that. That is not really relevant to the discussion, so we will stick to those 13 letters of Paul.
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Paul tended to establish churches. For example, when he established a church in Rome, he at times wrote a letter to the church in Rome, which we know as Romans.
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And he wrote two letters to the church, 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, and so forth. Paul's letters generally make up about 50 % of the
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New Testament, and the books of Paul, I mean of Jesus, 70%.
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So in terms of numbers, one can argue that Paul is already ahead. But I think there is something even more interesting.
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Paul makes certain claims, and in order to understand Paul, we need to understand his claims.
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In 2 Timothy, 32 verse 8, Paul admits and says, Look, remember that Jesus Christ raised from the dead, descended from the dead, and this is my gospel.
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Not necessarily the gospel of Jesus. And he continues, Galatians chapter 1 verse 11 and 12, he says,
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I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel that I preach is not something that man made up.
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I did not receive it from any man. Rather, I received it as revelation from Jesus Christ.
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So, Paul claims to have received revelation from Jesus Christ.
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And, in this new dispensation, and I say new because none of the other disciples turned out to be as bold as Paul.
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In this new dispensation, Paul regards himself as the spiritual father of the church, so to speak.
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He says in 1 Corinthians 4 verse 15, Though you had 10 ,000 guardians in Christ, I became your father through the gospel.
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So you would agree that these are quite impressive credentials. The problem is that many of the followers of the early church had their doubts about Paul.
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And in 2 Corinthians 13 verse 3, towards the end of 2 Corinthians, Paul challenges this.
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He says, how dare you question my authority? Why are you questioning the fact that I am receiving revelation from Jesus?
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And, in 1 Corinthians, we find that this scandal created some confusion.
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Because Paul writes there, he says, there are quarrels amongst you, my brothers. Some of you say,
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I follow Paul. Others say, I follow Peter. Others say, I follow Jesus. Now folks, there has not been any quarrels amongst us.
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I think Jesus set a standard from which we can judge truth from falsehood.
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Listen, in the gospel of John 13 verse 16, Jesus says, Truly, truly
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I say unto you, a servant is not greater than the master. So, the implications of Jesus' statement are quite clear,
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I think. He is stating that, look, if Jesus the master gives a ruling, and the servant, his disciple, contradicts that statement, then the teaching of the master takes precedence.
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Now, I just want to know, right here and now, if any of my
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Christian brothers and sisters object to this standard of Jesus. If you do, lift up your hands. No?
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Excellent. Now we can continue. Now, to gain clarity between the teachings of Jesus and Paul, I think the best thing to do is to put these teachings side by side.
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And in so doing, I intend to deal with the fundamentals of Christianity. Namely, firstly the concept of God.
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Then the idea of atonement. The concept of salvation. The importance of the laws of Moses, that is the
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Mosaic law. And finally, if we have time, I will look at, briefly, at some additional issues.
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Let us start with the core issue. The concept of God. Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, ascribed that to Jesus, and says very humbly,
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Good master, what is the first commandment? Jesus replies, Ye who is read,
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Lord of God, the Lord is one. Called the great shema, the great call.
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It is the call of all the prophets from Adam right up to Jesus. Jesus does not bother, and he does not define, redefine monotheism.
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In Hebrew, Yehoi Eloheinu Yehoi Echad, Kulku Ezzahu HaTzehikov, Lord is one.
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Paul, on the other hand, he takes the simple concept of monotheism, in a whole new direction.
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Instead of the shema, he emphasizes and develops a new article of faith.
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Namely, the Kaam and Prishti, the hymn of Jesus. In Philippians, chapter 2, verse 9,
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Today, Paul says, Even though Jesus was in the form of God, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant and likeness of man.
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So Jesus emptied himself of his divinity. This process is known as kenosis.
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So, clearly, this idea of a man -God, of God emptying himself of his divinity, is something new.
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Not sanctioned by Jesus. At least not in the words of Jesus. Now the question is, whose definition are we prepared to accept?
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The master's or the servant's? For me as a
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Muslim, that's easy to answer. Paul continues. In Colossians, chapter 2, verse 9,
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Paul says boldly, he says, For in Christ all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form.
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Now if you take this text literally, it means that Jesus is co -equal and co -eternal with God.
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He is truly God and truly man. This is known as the hypostatic union.
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Aureus, a Unitarian, he said, well, how can this be? We have the
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Father and the Son. A father is somebody who gives life. A son is somebody who receives life.
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So how can the son be equal to the father? Jesus, peace be upon him, himself says,
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John 14, verse 28, he says, My father is greater than I. So Jesus is not claiming equality with God.
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Indeed, if you look at the Quran, chapter 5, verse 119, the Quran depicts a scene on the
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Day of Judgment. The God Almighty is going to question Jesus and say, who is the son of Mary?
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And the element is quite interesting. The word here is qurta, qurta, qurta means you said that, who is the son of Mary?
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Did you yourself say that you are
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God? I know other people are saying the implication. I want to know from you. Did you yourself say that?
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That worship me and I am God. Jesus would say, glory be to thee. Never would
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I say what I have no right to say. And indeed, if I peruse the words of Jesus in the canonical
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Gospels, no way does Jesus say, I am God or worship me. So, I think, again, there is a problem between what
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Jesus said and what Paul said. Let us turn our attention to the doctrine of atonement.
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Now, let me explain briefly what the doctrine of atonement is. According to Paul, man is son, and man is represented by Adam.
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And in choosing the son, man has changed himself from God.
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So God had to come down to reconcile himself to man by giving up his life.
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And Paul says, despairingly, all have sinned, all forsook the glory of God.
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Romans chapter 3, verse 23. In other words, everyone must abstain from the sin of sinning, and only the blood of Jesus can wash it away.
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In Ephesians chapter 1 verse 7, Paul alleges, he says, in him, that is Jesus, we have redemption through his blood for the forgiveness of our sins.
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In a nutshell, this is the doctrine of atonement. The big question is, did
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Jesus share this viewpoint? In Matthew chapter 23, verse 35,
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Jesus says, he accuses Paul of euthanizing. He says, upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of Christ the angel to Zechariah.
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Further he says, Luke chapter 1, chapter 5, verse 32, I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinners to repentance.
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So by saying that there are righteous people in the world, innocent people,
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Jesus had no idea that all of us were tainted with some sort of original sin, which his blood had to wash away from us.
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And as for dying for the sake of humanity, the resurrection, and so forth, well, again, let us listen to the voice of the canonical gospels.
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Matthew chapter 30, verse 44, Matthew informs us, he says, Jesus spoke to the crowd in parables.
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Indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable. So Jesus, when he spoke to the people, he spoke in parables.
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Now a parable, really, is a little story with a moral attachment. For example, the fox ate the grapes.
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Once upon a time, a fox was walking along, he sees a delicious bunch of grapes.
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He jumps out, he tries to reach it, he cannot reach it, and in his fury he says, Ah, those grapes are sour anyway.
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So the story, the moral is, sometimes if you can't get what you want, you tend to be a monkey. And that is the way
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Jesus taught people. Now this is the interesting part. There is not a single parable narrated by Jesus about his divinity, his death by crucifixion, dying for the sins of humanity, his resurrection.
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You don't find that so much here. Jesus said, spoke to the people only in parables, and he doesn't say anything about the poor, the least of poor in Christianity.
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Jesus, like Muslims, they accepted that men were good, but we, they accepted that the
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God that we believe in is a God of forgiveness. And there was no need for somebody to die for our sins.
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So much for atonement. Let us go on to the next point of contention, that is, the idea of salvation.
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In other words, salvation asks the question, how can man be saved?
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How can we go to heaven? What is the key to heaven? Paul is elegant.
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He says, I quote, Romans September 9, If you confess with your lips that Jesus is
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Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
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In a nutshell, a formula for entering heaven. That, if you confess with your lips,
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Jesus is Lord, and believe that God raised him from the dead, that's it.
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Jesus on our hand in Matthew chapter 7 verse 21, he tells the people, he says, Not everyone who says unto me,
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Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Only those who does the work of my
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Father who is in heaven. On that day, the day of judgment. Many of you will come to me and say,
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Lord, Lord, did we not profess anything in your name? Did we not do many mighty works in your name? And I will say unto them,
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Get away from me, you evil doers. I never knew you. So who is Jesus going to save us to?
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The followers of Islam? Or Christianity? Who believes that Jesus died for the sins of humanity?
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And that he raised from the dead, that his blood washed away the sins of humanity. In short,
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Jesus seems to suggest that you have to do the will of God. And the
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Quran says the same thing, chapter 103, Believe in God, do good works.
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That's the key. Now let's talk about the relevance of the
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Torah. Or the law of Moses' law. Now Paul, he dismisses the laws of Moses, or of him.
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He says, look, it's unnecessary. It was there for a time, great, but now it's unnecessary.
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And I'm quoting here, Galatians chapter 2 verse 16, it says, A man is not justified in the laws of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ.
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We believe in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not to have the laws of the law, because the laws of the law shall no one be justified.
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In other words, look, the fundamentals of Moses' law, all the rules, the types of rules, regulations, not necessary.
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You believe in Jesus, somehow the Holy Spirit will enter you, you will do generally good works, and that's enough.
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Forget the law of Moses. Now, the big question of course is, how did
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Jesus view the law of Moses? Matthew 23 verse 1 through 3,
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Jesus turns to the people, he says, The scribe and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, so do what they tell you to do.
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Obey them, but do not do as they do, for they preach, but do not practice. So Jesus is saying, look, the scribes and the
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Pharisees, they teach you the law of Moses, I want you to listen to them and follow them, but don't do what they do.
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They preach, but they do not practice. He is emphasizing the
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Moses' law. In another day, in another message, Jesus says, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the
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Pharisees, you will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven. How does the righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the
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Pharisees? Simple. You preach, then you practice. So, we have a problem here.
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Paul rejects the law of Moses, Jesus emphasizes it. Am I judging
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Paul too harshly? I don't know, look. Peter, 2
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Peter 3 verse 16, Peter says, There are things hard to understand from Paul's letters.
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He says, Paul is very difficult to understand. Well, yes.
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Some people argue that Jesus is a fool. But, let us look at some of the interesting passages of Paul.
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In the church in Rome, Paul invites his disciples, Look, bless those that persecute you.
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Romans, chapter 12, verse 14. I don't know who it was. In Galatians, Paul responds differently.
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Galatians, chapter 12. He tells the people their personal anger, maybe righteous anger,
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I don't know what else he says. I wish those who outsell you would go and immaculate themselves.
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Now, I don't think Jesus, peace be upon him, would take kindly to this. Did Jesus regard himself as immaculated?
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Well, if he did, he didn't say that. He didn't regard circumcision in such a negative light.
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The way Paul does with contempt. So, I don't think
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Jesus would ever approve of this statement. 1 Timothy, Paul advises
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Timothy and says, No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illness.
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1 Timothy, chapter 5, verse 23. Now, I don't know if Paul here, as he claims, if he received, in this instance, revelation from Jesus, where he tells
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Timothy, He says, look, I know you have a stomach problem, you have ulcers, you have frequent illness.
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Stop drinking water only. Drink wine. Frequently.
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Now, you know, I have a gastric problem. My doctor advised me,
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Thank goodness you don't drink wine. Please, go away from that. I'm not too sure if Paul advised this, but if he did, then
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I would suggest all Christians should follow Paul's advice. Unless you believe that there is a problem here, or there is something which is hard to understand, as Peter says, but to prevent a person who is drinking water, which is very good for him, he says, listen, stop drinking water only.
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Drink wine frequently and you will feel better. I don't know. I don't think any doctor would give that advice.
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Sorry, how much time do I have? 4 and a half minutes. Finally, I think in all fairness, we will let
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Paul speak in his own defence. In 1
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Corinthians 3, Paul sternly says, Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the
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Spirit of God ever says, Jesus, be cursed. And second, if you are speaking by the
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Spirit of God, you can't say, Jesus is cursed, was cursed, cursed be
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Jesus. Wrong. Accept that. Now, it's interesting,
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I think, that Paul, on their basis, cannot be speaking by the
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Spirit of God. In Galatians 3, verse 13, Paul says bluntly, he says,
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Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having himself become the curse for us.
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For it is written, Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree, nor is it the law.
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Despite the curse. So he says, look. Jesus was cursed. He became a curse for us in order to redeem us.
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So it's a real problem here. On the one hand, he says, you cannot be speaking by the Spirit of God if you say
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Jesus was cursed or is cursed. On the other hand, he says, hold on. The essence of his teachings is that Jesus was cursed.
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He became a curse for us. In 1 Corinthians 10, verse 14,
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Paul says, I think I have the Spirit of God. Well, maybe he does. But the problem is, that the
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Spirit of God that Jesus had, and he had, seems to be crashing.
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Quite violently. And I need to go back. I asked you, I said, look. Are you happy with the standard set by Jesus?
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And you all said yes. And I tried to demonstrate. And I'm sure my brother
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James will try to prove me wrong. But I tried to demonstrate that there is a direct clash between the teachings of Jesus, why we want this earth, and the teachings of Paul.
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And I think that the ultimate question is, who do you accept?
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The teachings of Jesus, of Paul, and I'm going to ask you to be the judge for now.
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Thank you so much. Thank you,
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Bashir. A job well done. Our next speaker is our honored guest, Dr. James Dwight.
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Introduction to Dr. James Dwight. He's the director of How Far Can A Man Go Ministries, a