David Wood, Don't Go Woke

A Warning Against Going Woke

David Wood my friend don't go woke. I don't think you have. I think you're teetering in that direction. I watched your your video on police and I didn't like it and then I just watched this and I didn't like it.

I'm going to show a 40 minute interaction with your boy Carlton and and then interact with it. So we're supposed to be slow to speak quick to listen slow to become angry. So I'm not going to comment. I'm going to listen for 40 minutes take notes respond to as much of it as I can.

For those of you who don't know myself I'm Jeff Cleaver pastor of Cornerstone Church in Mount Laurel and have hosted an apologetics conference over the years and David has come a couple of times done a tremendous job teaching us.

I appreciate David very much his his ministry to Muslims and his ministry in theology and in so many ways. I'm a huge supporter very thankful for what God has done through this man. Many many people have come to Christ and David I think is blazing the trail to not treat Muslims with kid gloves but to speak the truth blatantly and firmly and and I've learned a lot from him in that way.

I think he's right about his perspective in how to to deal with Mohammed and the Quran which the world will call hateful and bigoted but in truth is loving. And I appreciate David very much. And I appreciate Carlton.

I've never met Carlton. This is my first time seeing him. I appreciate him very much as well and just hope that he would be encouraged in the faith. So please take this criticism as in the spirit of correction as a friend to be preferred to a kiss from an enemy a slap from a friend.

I do offer I think a pretty sharp critique of what you guys are putting out there but I do so in love. Couple resources. I'll point you to one is Walter Williams an economist and just Google suffer no fools really good kind of documentary about his life.

In it he tells the story of a young black kid and I don't like the term black and white people of color nonsense but just for the sake of communication he says a black kid came up to him. The kid was probably 12 years old and lamented that he wanted to become an Air Force pilot but he knows that the white man would never allow it to happen.

Walter Williams said that was one of the saddest things he ever saw because the kid walked away sad. And yet this was decades after the Tuskegee Airmen. And his point goes on to be that this concept of systemic racism being a determining factor in the black community in holding down a people so that they cannot achieve the American dream or whatever it is that they want is itself oppressive.

This narrative which is taught and enforced and reinforced over and over again is the problem itself. Greg Morse from desiring God tells talks about microaggressions. And in this video you guys talk about microaggressions.

He says he was walking with his kid and Greg Morse is a black guy and he had his kid in the stroller and his wife with him and as he approached someone on the sidewalk this lady blatantly crossed the street and passed on the other side.

And Greg Morse in his article for desiring God I forget the name of it but you could Google Google it and find it pretty easily. He says he could have gone home and tweeted about that microaggression or put it on Facebook and he would have had hundreds of likes just like that lamenting the racism of America and this microaggression against him.

But instead he realized that for him to impute to her this old lady who crossed the street the accusation of racism would be slanderous of her because he can't look into her heart and see racism there.

In fact he then offers a number of possible reasons why this woman crossed the street. Maybe she's afraid of kovat. Maybe she thinks I'm gonna cross the street when anybody comes by because I don't want to be within six feet of people.

Maybe she has other reason that there's any number of reasons why she could have crossed the street. And microaggressions plays God in reading the hearts of people to impute racism where a man is unable to see.

So a couple examples there Walter Williams Greg Morse I would encourage the reading of Thomas soul. His book discrimination and disparities deals with a lot of the questions that are raised by this coming video here.

But without any further ado here is David Wood and his friend Carlton discussing racial injustices calling for reparations saying that there are microaggressions that we need to be very aware of and decrying systemic racism in our culture.

Let's listen for 40 minutes and then I'll respond.

Reparations, Microaggressions, and Systemic Racism

All right. Carlton easy question for you. Carlton easy question.

Reparations bring on Carlton. I want to ask him if he's a left-leaning person.

What he thinks about James White. So we got we got we got three things. Here are.

You one. Are you a left-leaning Christian apologist. No I'm for the agenda of the.

Lamb not for the donkey or the elephant. What was the question about James White.

Does he like I try to get smoke. Yeah I like him for some stuff but not so much.

Tell us everything you don't like about every apology. Oh my somebody said to do the Carlton just so everyone knows his actual name is Carlton. That's not a nickname it's a family name that goes back.

He wasn't named after Carlton that's a family name and so he just got the the coolest name in the world and then learned to do the dance. He learned it because it's his name so I feel like it's just part of the DNA all right now.

Scoot you in a little cuz. I'm right.

Here. Okay. Reparations yes or no. Oh my gosh. Easy question. Easy. I think it's one of those things where I think a lot of people just express incredulity at it at first. And so when you start to look at state mandated evils that had a generational impact that have that haven't been rectified you know and I mean a lot of times the question goes from being should something be done to well how would we do something and then what we don't know how we would do it so nothing should be done.

As opposed to I think what the middle thing would be is should something and then we can discuss method afterwards and so the concept of reparations. And keep in mind I'm not necessarily trying to be pinned down to just saying hey let's everybody just get a free check but I do think it's a conversation worth exploring that I think just get shut down from the onset.

And I'm sure nobody just got triggered from what I just said. Yeah. And Justin you know just in case yeah I don't want him to be the only one triggering people. We had a discussion about it last night with a group of people and I sort of laid out my view that I gave the example of Max bear he's a boxer back in the 1920s and 1930s and he actually killed or had a role in killing two guys in the ring and he actually I know at least one of them had kids and Max bear spent the rest of his life paying for that guy's kids you know to go all the way to college and so on.

But but I mean think about that it's it's you know I had a role in taking your father away and therefore I'm going to do something that your father would have done if he if I hadn't had that role in taking him away.

And so he's saying you know I'm going to do that. But you know what I was talking about was you know what what if what. If it was like my great-grandfather who had done that and like that if my great-grandfather had killed your great-grandfather and now that has affected your family and you'd been in poverty and so on.

Well it's weird to say that I have to do this or I have to hand over something. But I would say if I know that then I would say it's a good thing to do if I know that I can do something that has been caused by my family or something like that and I can somehow do something that I would say it's good.

And so yeah if it's a situation where one group has been oppressed or abused by another my position if you can do something sometimes you can't. Sometimes there's nothing. Sometimes it's so long ago you just there's no there's no way to do it.

I would say it's a good thing to do if you can do it the question then becomes can you do it. What can you do about it. And is it actually good and would it actually work. But as you're pointing out the discussion usually gets shut down because people are thinking right.

Oh you're saying we just take tons.

Of money. I'm gonna take all the money out of my wallet give it to you and then.

Everything's right right. We wonder what would that have to do with anything. So it's got it. Yeah it's got to be something different something just.

Happened in Asheville recently where they did approve something for reparations. In the sense of now they're putting a lot of funding towards investing in you know homeownership and a lot of businesses for I guess for the black residents.

So they're recognizing the economic impacts that certain things like slavery and oppression had. So do you take dance classes. Carlton. So you bet that just came natural. That is natural. But yeah. But right.

But I do think that you know the fact that this is something that's being looked into. You know I think it's progress. You know and I mean I think a lot of times when you think about justice especially in a restorative sense in the sense that a lot of times it's just I think that true reconciliation involves more than just admitting an offense.

I think it involves making that the prodded party whole. And so I think you know if we take a look at what that looks like then maybe you know that's what we're gonna have discussions but I think too often it just gets shut down it.

Nope whatever. Just pull yourself up by the bootstraps. And I think you know certain conversations are worth looking into. Just had a question asking.

How old I am 44 like a magnum bumbleclop boy said. So this goes back to what I was mentioning earlier. If you don't believe in the Quran why would a verse claiming the biblical scriptures are corrupted matter to you hypothetically.

Well if the Quran said that the Bible has been corrupted the Quran said that the Bible is corrupted. I wouldn't care at all. It's the Quran. I don't believe in it. This isn't about us. This is a point about Muslims using an attack against the Bible which is contradicted by their own God and their own prophet.

And so they're using it illicitly. Right. So to give you an example if I were arguing for the resurrection of Jesus and an atheist said that's stupid because miracles don't occur I might need to make a case for the existence of God and for the possibility of miracles with that atheist.

If I were arguing for the resurrection with a Muslim and the Muslim said that's stupid because miracles don't occur. My response would not be an argument for the existence of God or for the possibility of miracles.

My art my response would be what the heck are you talking about. You're a Muslim. The Quran is filled with claims that Jesus performed miracles and that miracles are possible and that God exists. Why are you using that.

You're not allowed to use that if you want to leave Islam and become an atheist and then come back and use that argument be my guess. But as a Muslim I'm not letting you use an argument that you are not allowed to use.

So what we're doing is there's something similar where you've got Muslims around the world saying your Bible's been corrupted. Your Bible's been corrupted. Your Bible's been corrupted. We open the Muslim sources and Allah says over and over again like a beating drum that our scriptures are the inspired preserved authoritative Word of God they can't be corrupted and we still have to judge by them and honor them.

And so Muslims are saying something that completely contradicts what their God and their prophets say and their leaders who tell them no the Quran says that the Bible's been corrupted are flat-out lying to them.

They're flat-out lying to them about what it's just like they lie about. Oh the Quran's been miraculously preserved. They know. That's a lie. They just keep telling people these things. So so it's it's a weird situation where we actually have more respect for the Quran than a lot of Muslim leaders do.

Because we're at least honest about what it says. So what we're telling Muslims is. And as long as you are adhering to the authority of your book you have to respect the authority of our book. You don't realize it because your leaders conceal these things from you.

We're going to draw your attention to those things so that you stop arguing this. In other words there are differences between Islam and Christianity. And there are very important points of discussion and places where we want to examine the evidence.

This isn't supposed to be a dispute between us. We believe in the authority of our scriptures. Your God the God of Islam believed in the authority of our scriptures and your prophet believed in the authority of our scriptures.

So if you don't believe in the authority of your scriptures you're out of line not simply with us but with your own religion. And we're the ones who have to tell you what kind of sad situation is that.

So that's the situation. It's not. This doesn't have anything to do with us gathering authority for our book. It's pointing out a contradiction in their religion. Their religion affirms scriptures that contradict their religion.

And that's just a problem. And they don't know about it. And they won't know about it unless we tell them about it. So that's the idea. You see any questions you want to respond to. Don't get nervous now yeah no you just danced in front of all these people.

That is very true man. I don't.

Think it gets much more nerve-wracking than that. I know someone asked what's my favorite argument for the existence of God. I'm a big fan of the Kalam and the moral argument pretty standard but I think they're really powerful.

Hey for.

For people who believe. Right. So you always have these extremes. Right. Yeah. You always have these extremes. So you'll have people who see racism everywhere. Yeah. Everything's racist. Everything you say is racist.

Anything blah blah blah is racist. But then you have people that come on man it's the 21st century. No one's racist anymore. Yeah. And anyway I'm just bringing this up because yesterday someone asked you what do you think about microaggressions.

Because we think of microaggressions as ridiculous because everyone sees anything anyone says as a microaggression. For sure you're pointing out no. You actually believe there are these things called microaggressions.

And you gave an example. So yeah I don't know what they would experience as a microaggression. Yeah for.

Sure and I think it's one of those things like because everything gets heavily politicized so I think oh yeah my bad yeah so I think for instance I think it's possible to have some problems maybe with an ideology without having racial animus.

So for instance I went to the National Science and Faith Conference I think two years ago and I asked this question about the law of causality and the origin of the universe and the scientists they were like oh my gosh it was a great question and so afterwards this 75 year old white guy comes up to me and he's like man I was wondering what's a little black boy doing asking a smart question like that and I looked at it I was just like you know what.

I didn't go off on the guy because you know obviously those were the vestiges of the time he grew up in but he meant that as a compliment you know and even though there wasn't any racial animus there I was still really racist.

What he said you know assuming that because I'm black I can't be intelligent you want to mean now there wasn't any conscious racial animus there but I still think that would be something that could be perceived as a quote-unquote microaggression.

He's not deliberately being aggressive. Exactly but there is something yeah and a set of erroneous beliefs that's I guess maybe coloring the world you know the lens that he views the world through and so and he might not be conscious of it.

But then you know it's like if somebody says wow you're really smart for a black person or wow you're really pretty for a Mexican like a lot of times people will say that and they'll mean it sincerely as a compliment right.

But that would be an example of something where there isn't necessarily an intent or an aggressive you know intent there but there's still something of you know something that's kind of still a racist there and I think it's something that should be fixed and it's funny cuz you.

You talk about all kinds of stuff and then I just I bring up the stuff that's gonna trigger people. Reparations and microaggressions everything. Yeah. Cuz here's the thing I kind of like triggering people.

It's weird. I noticed that like years ago I didn't. I mean apart from abortion I didn't really have political positions. I would just take the opposite political position of anyone I was in the room with if I was.

If I was in it. If I was in a room with like you know diehard leftist I'd praise God for George W Bush right you know. Like that. And if I was in the of course room with a bunch of you know conservatives or Republicans or something like that I would.

I'd be. I'd be maintaining the opposite. Yeah. I just realized that you know. Yeah. I look yeah.

It's kind of like so I mean whenever I'm in a room people my left-leaning friends think I'm right-leaning and my right-leaning friends think I'm left.

Leaning yeah now just to be clear I do have certain political positions now but yeah on lots of things on lots of things it's not just gonna be. Hey this is the side I'm on and therefore I agree with everything on this side or I'm again you know I'm you know I disagree with this side on this huge issue therefore I.

Disagree with everything they say. Yeah we got to disabuse ourselves from this political tribalism that I really think does you know permeates a lot of American Christianity people be ideologically gangbanging so in this.

Conversation we're having yesterday is this white dude says. This white dude says you know tell me if I'm wrong. Here's something along the lines of you know what's you know what's cool about white people is we don't have this tribalism that other groups have and that's a situation where he's not meaning anything but we you know we're like.

So which tribe is he. That's what I meant. Whatever we like they would say something and then we would you know.

Exactly. What's Christianity's position on black. What is Jesus. Really that white. He's portraying now. Who's asking that. That is okay. Well we dealt with. We dealt.

With reparations now we dealt with reparations and microaggressions and.

Now what's Jesus. I'm a liberal. Here we go. All right. So okay. So we're about to get the cultural Marxist the intersectionality SJW the woke mob mentality. This is what happens though. Like you speak on a racial and you mentioned that and they're like you must support abortion or you know.

And it's like no but as a Christian I stand against injustice and so the question is is injustice happening. And instead they just there's such a you know we marry conservatism with Christianity so much that if you disagree with one thing and it's a part of it you don't have the gospel anymore.

And I think that that's not what's up. That's not Jesus that's that's put the Caesar in Christ's together. You know. All right. Anyway. All right. Somebody passed me to offer a.

Plate. No no no yeah. You get you get some feedback here you get some feedback you get some feedback. Amateur on said it's about to school. You here. Oh gosh here you go. The way I look at reparations is no one alive in the u .s. was a slave or owns a slave.

So I don't agree with it at all. Okay how. Well I guess he just.

Disproved every now so I guess part of it would be I think the concept of reparations isn't foreign so we think about it like let's say with respect to indigenous persons who because we recognize that there was a state mandated evil that was done against them that had it was that didn't just die with them that had generational impacts that still manifest today no one alive was responsible for the taking of the natives land but we recognize the impact that that had on them and that still permeates a lot of today.

And so because of that we recognize that something needs to be done to rectify that because we can't interpret events in a vacuum history is constantly influencing the present. It is not so much focusing on hey just leave all that stuff in the past alone but when we recognize the impact that it has that it's had and the lack of reparations which literally just means I guess the the fixing of a problem that was done sometimes either monetarily or by other means I think that that's one of the things that can go into it so it's not so much on this individualistic notion of I'm not necessarily guilty of it so much as you know an evil that was done to a people that that I guess in some sense has continued to be done not necessarily slavery but a lot of the other oppressions that take place but that still has a lot of impacts and I think the reparations you know not to mention the slave masters were given reparations for lost labor you know and there was a reason why slaves were promised 40 acres in a mule and then they weren't given that because owning land is one of the main keys to gaining generational wealth.

So then all of a sudden now all the land is bought up all the property a lot of the power and then these people you know don't have access to that and I think that you're seeing a lot of that play out with respect to poverty which is one of the big influencers in a lot of different areas.

But yeah I don't think that that's a really good objection but.

I understand the sentence. Yeah. Because you you could make your case because I said I said my position and I'd be I'd be open to modification. Is it's. You know it's if it's in in so far in the distant past that there's just no way to work it out then obviously there's no way to undo the the injustice.

Yeah. But if there is something that can be done and just you know I don't think oh let's take this money and hand this to this. I don't think that works. It's it's more like it. You know it let's say this community is was massively poor because of things that were done.

Is there something you can do to help fix that. And I think we.

Think of things as so far in the distant past you know what I mean. One the Emancipation Proclamation was in 1863 but then the aftermath of that didn't even really get down black people. Well not even all people.

Juneteenth is something that got recognition now right. In 1865 so more than two years after the fact when the last slaves were free. But then afterwards you started to see. I guess if you read the 13th Amendment it doesn't necessarily say the ending of slavery.

It just says the ending of slavery except as a punishment of a crime. So then you look after that and then all of a sudden you see black crime to take place and sharecropping and so a lot of them end up back on the same plantations that they were freed from.

And then you start to see. You know the March on Selma was like 55 years ago. But I feel like there's this perception that a lot of these issues are just so far removed in the past. That's like what are you guys complaining about.

And so I think when we recognize the impacts that history has had on the present and not just it being historical but then when you take a look at some of the things that still take place I think it vastly.

I guess changes the scope of the conversation. Yeah. And I mean notice here again. I mean if you took this seriously yeah. Then when you have an example like a boxer kills another dude and that dude's family let's say is now impoverished because you know they had a mother and a father their father was earning money and now he's gone and so on.

Let's suppose that family's in poverty. Let's suppose it's not him. Let's suppose it's me and I'm his son and I have an opportunity to help these kids who were impoverished because something my dad did.

It's just a question if if you can do it is it a good thing to do. I would say yes. But if we follow this. Well no I'm not the one who did it. I didn't bust his head open and these kids didn't have their heads busted open.

And therefore you what you shouldn't do it. I don't know something something something weird about that. So again the question is you know how far can you how far can you push these things back and so on.

And anyway I hear you. Yeah. Because keep it keep in mind this isn't just slavery. There's a lot of things after there's.

After slavery I feel like there's this really sanitized history of you know with black people in the struggle in America that slavery happened like and the way that they'll see you like it was like something I was 400 years ago so but even though it wasn't we'll say slavery happened that got solved and then black people were kind of treated bad.

Then Martin Luther King gave some speeches and then he solved racism and so. What. What were you guys complaining about. You know. And you look at the practices of redlining which for those of you who don't know that was something that started kind of in the 30s and the 40s that kind of barred black people from buying land and buying houses in you know nicer neighborhoods with whites.

They said no no no they drew red lines around certain things they can't be here and so that's what created a lot of the hoods ghettos in America. And I'm not saying that every black person lives in the ghetto.

No but that's what created a lot of. That's not like a whole bunch of people just said hey you know what I want to live in the poorest most dangerous communities. And yeah that sounds like the life. A lot of them still that's like the literally the systemic outworking of a systemic evil that was taking place and then it's not just something that was historical.

There are banks within the last decade I think Bank of America Wells Fargo all are have been found guilty of this practice of redlining to here and they're losing millions and millions of dollars. So when we see a lot of that I think it you know.

But I think it I think it informs a lot of it. You just had a few super. Oh you're.

Getting. You're getting refuted now. Oh let's see. Okay so if blacks in the if blacks in the u .s. want reparations they should start with the blacks in Africa for selling them to Europeans. Oh yeah. So with respect I just wanted to bring up here's here's here's here's what I here's what I here's something I wanted to here's something I wanted to address real quick.

Right. Because there there are people who are gonna be flipping up. Oh oh there you know he's in the woke. I've noticed that anytime someone we're just developing a culture right like we have of course cancel culture right.

Where everyone has to be someone has to be destroyed for saying anything I disagreed with even if it's ten years ago right. And most of us look down on and say that that that that is ridiculous right.

But there is something similar going on with so many people on so many different sides namely that the second you say something that I think is in any way associated with some position that I do not want to hear you.

And I immediately want to shout you down and say that this is ridiculous. It's where's my inclination is go and make it go and make your case. I don't care what it is. You want it. You want to make a case for white supremacy tell me what you got.

I.

Hear this somebody just asked did Jesus ask for reparations. No. First off the whole concept of reparations is justice. The whole glory of the gospel is that the cross is the place where love mercy grace and justice meet.

Just the only reason the gospel works is because of justice. That's why first John 2 1 says he's the propitiation for our sins. Not only for that but those of the whole world there was a propitiation that satisfied God's wrath.

The same thing is spoken about in Romans 3 24 to 28. So the whole purpose is that he wasn't unjust in what he was doing justice work through the cross. So that question literally makes no sense especially within a gospel framework.

I'm just.

Saying that right but I noticed you just skipped over. Oh yeah. But the blacks blacks there we go us I just had reparations there we go. They should start let me get with the blacks in Africa for selling them to Europe.

So.

Yeah okay so part of that I think is one we're reading a 21st century mindset with respect to race into African relationships. One Africa wasn't a monolith so it's not like they just viewed each other as black people.

A lot of times the people that were sold into slavery were prisons of war. So here's we get back to tribalism right. There were competing tribes so it wasn't like hey I'm a black person and I'm selling another black person into slavery the same way that I don't ask you know when the Ottomans fought other you know European nations well why did they fight each other they were white you know like that's not part of what it was.

But second the whole thing about I guess it being in Africa is that the injustices. Well I guess one the Europeans then a lot of times they weren't kidnapping Africans but even with the ones that were sold from fellow Africans into that the injustice is done to them.

But one millions died in the on just the way here and then in America that's where all of a sudden the injustice permeated you know and that's where they started to be I guess propagated in terms of now you are dehumanized and that's why you know I feel like the whole world blacks should you know and I guess too it was a state-sanctioned evil like it was in you it was in the u .s. that it happened.

So that's why when somebody said you know when Arabs came in enslaved Africans in Africa and then that was something we you know we talked about last night and then so they owe reparations and I guess part of that is well I mean if they're still living in Africa and if that's still something I guess that would be something to be looked into but I don't think that.

Yeah like like like like so.

And part of it is a situation where you can't really trace something in certain instances that long ago the question is whether you can't. Like suppose suppose there were a slave-selling town that had become massively wealthy based on selling slaves and that tons of gold and so on had been delivered to this town for these slaves and so on and so that now this you know there's they're sitting on all this wealth that was from and you could actually identify it in identify this wealth was was taken you know for these slaves and we can actually locate the ancestors of this slave of the slave.

I in that situation I still wouldn't say take that take the gold and so on you know and hand it over. Because again I'm not thinking in terms of handing over money. It's a question of what can you do to if if if descendants of this group are in the position that they're in because of things that were done to them and you're in a situation where you can do something about that.

I believe you should that that that's my position. If you can't then sorry there's nothing you can do and somebody.

Said that the justice done on the cross wasn't societal so all I'm gonna say with respect to that is yes. And so I do think that there are still several scriptures that do speak to justice in society.

So you go to Isaiah 1 17 where it says learn to do good seek justice correct oppression. You know you go to Isaiah 10 1 through 4 where God is judging a Syria which he's gonna use a jury at a judge Israel for the injustice every valley shall be exalted.

Every mountain and hill shall be made low right. Exactly what he says he's got.

Pronounced his voice says woe to those who make unjust laws to those who issue oppressive decrees to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless.

What will you do on the day of reckoning when disaster comes from afar. To whom will you run for help. Where will you leave your riches. You know Psalm 82 3 through 4 when he's talking to the magistrates and talking about the perversion of justice that's taking place.

So I don't think as Christians we should be against injustice. The question is is injustice.

Systemic Racism, Political Tribes, and the Limits of the Middle

Taking place now a few minutes ago. Yeah. You mentioned systemic. Oh boy. Now. So you talked about the reparation. Oh man. Talked about the microaggressions we're trying to show you are full woke social justice warrior leftist radical Marxist.

Exact. We're trying to get you in that category. And the nail in your Marxist coffin. Oh my god. Will be systemic racism right now. I just want to say. Because here's how it goes. Here's how it goes. Right.