Examining the Christian Nationalism Debate Part 2

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Part 3: Mohammed and the Origins of Islam | Cultish @TheAlMaidahInitiative

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When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

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Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

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So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

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Bible. And specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

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Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

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We need to love God with all our hearts and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

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Lord with all of our souls and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

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We need to love the Lord with our minds and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

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We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength and face the work of building a life -giving, God -honoring culture.

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Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

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Christian thinking to every area of life. Non -rocker boaters must stop.

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I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it! Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

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We're being delusional. Delusional, yeah. Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal.

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You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

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It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me! What?!

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What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

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Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

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Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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And homies who journey, shall you remember and be the same.

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For unto us a child is born. Unto us a son is given. And the government shall be upon his shoulder.

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And his name shall be called one for counselor, El Gabor, the mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.

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Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end. On the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.

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The zeal of the Lord of hosts. We'll do this. Merry Christmas.

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Merry Christmas everybody. Bringing us in with a little gentle interlude here.

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A little gentle. A little gentle interlude. I like it. I like it. Set in the mood.

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It's Christmas time. Yes. Where are we? We're getting closer.

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Eleven days away. Eleven days away. Very excited. Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

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Pastor. It's going to be a day. Pastor Jeff is back with his two babies from that one state.

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So praise the Lord for that. They're home and trying to adjust to life with twins. So he's not with us today.

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This will be our last show of 2023. Welcome little

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Zeezers. Yes. Thank you. Glad to be here as usual. So we if you didn't see last week you should just stop watching and go and watch last week's first.

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As we will be continuing the conversation from last week. So we'll get into that in a minute here.

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Good one. Good times. So anyways, back to the conversation.

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Let's do it. So last week, again if you didn't see it, and I'm going to kill this Christmas music here.

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Um We discussed the panel discussion from G3 and um forgive me because I'm totally blanking.

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Let me pull this up here. Yeah. Christian nationalism, theonomy, post -millennialism, and other small things.

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There's a lot of L's in that word. Have you ever noticed that? Sometimes like you have to really slowly pronounce that word.

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Just the way your mouth moves. That's hilarious. Oh are we in a mood today?

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We need a Christmas rest. So we started working through that. Which by the way,

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I sent it to Virgil. I told everyone last week, I love Virgil. That's my guy, man. And I said, hey, let me know what you think about this.

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Amazing brother. Yeah. He said that he really appreciated it and thought it was charitable and said, you know, basically we have a lot more in common than differences and I totally agree with that.

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So we're going to continue in that conversation today and try to finish this if we can. What's crazy, and I'm going to do this first here.

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So like literally, I think it was either that Thursday when we ended the show or it was Friday morning.

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I think it was Friday morning. John Cooper sent me this trailer for this God and Country from Rob Reiner.

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This is coming out in 2024 and I was like, man, I wish I would have had that for the radio show.

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So we're going to play that first and kind of play through that, talk about it, and then we'll pick back up in the conversation from last week.

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So I'm going to go ahead. Again, this is from Rob Reiner. He makes some great movies. Super liberal.

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And I saw this and I was like, ugh. And the title is God and Country? Yeah. Correct? Okay.

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Alright, so let's just get right into it here. If you want to pull that up, Carmen. America and Christianity are like baseball and apple pie and we celebrate them together.

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Okay, right off the bat. If you don't know who that is, that's Phil Vischer from VeggieTales.

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Mr. VeggieTales. HeresyTales, HeresyTales, HeresyTales, Heresy.

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Are we going to get more jingles from you as the episode goes on? I think that's it. Or is that the end?

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Yeah. Bob and Larry. He's gone about as liberal as you can and still call yourself a

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Christian. I'm not going to judge his soul on this show but I'll just say that.

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Has he maintained orthodoxy in any area? I don't know exhaustively but just looking at the things he writes about and tweets about, it's iffy.

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Yeah. Alright. Continue. I was 16, 17 years old when

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I became a Christian. I'm an Evangelical minister. I've been a Christian my whole life. I'm a

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Christian nationalist. I have nothing to be ashamed of because that's what most Americans are. Is Christian Nationalism Christian?

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Um, no, it isn't. We should be blazing forth as a countercultural example and instead we're leading the charge of Okay.

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If you guys, by the way, Doug Wilson today released a blog in May blog about this trailer and he did a

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Doug Reacts video which are both really good but at this point it just showed the sign that said

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Jesus is a refuge. Right. So open your borders and let everybody in. Yeah, and I love

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Doug's response so much. He was like, yes, Jesus was a refuge from the government. Yeah.

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He was escaping tyranny. That's why he was a refugee. Just keep that in mind for those that want to tell you otherwise.

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It's another way you know, we've talked about this before but the progressive deconstructing

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Christianity if you could call it that. This is one of their famous tag labels is characterizing

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Jesus as the social justice warrior who fled persecution, fled as a refugee and therefore you should allow your country to be completely overrun by those who are coming here illegally.

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That's kind of the jump in logic there. However, as you already pointed out, just because Jesus was fleeing mass genocide which, you know, the liberal portion of Christianity also endorses mass genocide.

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In the womb. Just a side note there. That doesn't mean that God isn't concerned with nations or concerned with national boundaries since he providentially establishes those,

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Acts 17. Just one thing to maybe kick us off here of the flavor of this trailer.

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We all know where it's coming from and the direction this is going. Yeah, and I love what

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Doug said. He basically was like, they like went down a checklist of things to include in the trailer like we're getting and he's like big

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American flags like J6 you know, patriots like all the things and you know, and all the people in this trailer, they're like the who's who of liberal

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Christians. You know, and so anyways, I'm just going to keep going. Malice and division.

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Christian nationalism uses Christianity as a means to an end. That end being some form of authoritarianism.

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Being a Christian is about the value Sorry, authoritarianism.

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So using the state to exclude some form of public belief.

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Is that what he means by authoritarianism? I'd love to hear. Well, of course more context as to the statement there, but I know this has been pointed out, you know, he's

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Russell Moore is Russell Moore and we know kind of where he stands on all these issues. But the accusation is that Christians want to use the power of the state to compel belief.

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Yeah, that would be my guess. Yes. Yes. Whereas nothing could be further from the truth in terms of what we believe.

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Although the state is not exempt from having a role in promoting truth and rejecting falsehood, rejecting error.

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You know, they're the servant of a particular God and that God is the God of the Bible. So their occupation and their role in this regard is not neutral.

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And keep in mind that these are the same people that were arguing for the forceful wearing of masks and injecting of things into your body.

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So which kind of authoritarianism are we talking about? Yeah, using the long arm of the state, shall we say, to penalize you in some way or to shut down your business or to keep you from seeing your dying family or, you know, what have you.

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All those things that fine you, ticket you for not complying with the edicts.

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And again, it goes back to what we say all the time is like Russell Moore here, he's just arguing for a certain standard of morality.

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Right? And that's what it boils down to. And we're saying, and again, if you're new to this conversation, we are not arguing for the term

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Christian Nationalist. Like, that's not our position. If you watched part one, you'd know that. Right.

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So again, if you haven't, you should go back and watch it. But yeah, I mean, if anything, we were saying like, I would maybe say a

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Christian Culturist, you know, but like regardless, like, I'm not jealous for that term.

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We're not arguing for that term. We're just trying to very clearly demonstrate what's going on and try to insert ourselves into the conversation to, one, defend our position because it's kind of being lumped into this other position, but regardless, whose authority are we arguing for?

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So essentially what Russell Moore is saying, he is not arguing for the authority of God in Scripture.

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He's arguing for some subjective standard of man's authority. Yeah, and everybody lives under authority.

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Right. You either live under your own authority or you live under the authority of God's Word. And as Christians who want to be public about our values, we just believe that we live under the authority of God and the

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Scriptures. Yeah, exactly. So we'll pick it back up in here again, as Doug said, insert soup kitchen.

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Christian nationalism is certainly not based on the values of the gospel. God wants

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America to be saved. They're told over and over and over again that you're in danger.

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You need to fight if you don't want to lose your country. That's important, that clip there.

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One, God wants America to be saved. I don't even know who that was and that's not something

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I would argue is biblical. I would say we should want all men to be saved, not just our country, right?

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Sure. While realizing that God judges nations for their covenantal disobedience to Him and praying and working towards repentance, now at a national level we should all be engaged in about the work of.

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I believe that God has given the nations to Jesus to be saved, and we believe that that process is ongoing, but the kingdom is at the center of it, not any one nation or people group.

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Exactly right. That clip, I want to stop here because, again, Doug made this point. I didn't even realize it the first time

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I saw this, but I'm glad Doug said it. The clip of that man you just saw being handcuffed and dragged out, that was at a school board meeting and he was upset because his daughter was assaulted by a transgender student in the wrong bathroom in a public school, and he went to the school board meeting to express his feelings and ended up getting arrested.

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Again, they make it look like these Christians are just these loonies that just, you know, we're going to just make you bow down to God's authority.

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It's like, the guy, he was upset. He had a reason to be upset. His daughter was assaulted. Let's talk about that.

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Is it Christian nationalism to not want your daughter to be assaulted by a man dressed up as a woman?

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Exactly. Exactly. No pun intended. Exactly. Was there something else you wanted to say at this point?

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Not about that, but I'm glad that you highlighted that clip because that's how this is being characterized.

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Men actually trying to have virtue in the public square and defend their families are being smeared in a documentary and labeled as a

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Christian nationalist activity or behavior to defend your family, which to the point of the men that have already pointed this out, this is a label we're going to receive whether we want to or not.

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We acknowledge that. If you stand for any type of biblical values in a way that is outward facing, you're going to be accused of this and labeled this.

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It doesn't prevent you from defining your terms. Like, if someone asks, are you a Christian nationalist?

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Well, I reserve the right to define what that means for me. I reject any attempt to mischaracterize me at the outset, but if by the time

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I get to the end of stating what my position is on this, for example, believing that the

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Word of God is the foundation for all of life, that it should inform our values and our public morality, and so on and so forth, and I get to the end of that and someone says, so you're a

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Christian nationalist, and I would say, well, sure, if that's what you mean. If you mean, do

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I believe the Bible and do I work to apply it in all of life, then sure. Yeah, and that's a great point, and it's something we got into a little bit last week.

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Even listening to Doug's take on this, Doug actually argues for a position of Christian nationalism.

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He calls it mere Christendom, but he would ascribe to some flavor of this position, and he says we shouldn't be fighting against that, which

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I might want to have a conversation with him about that, but going back to what we discussed last week,

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I think that the reaction, when we get back into the G3 conversation, again, some of the reaction we've...

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This is why I wish I had this last week. I think some of that reaction, I'm allergic to the term, is because of stuff like this, because it's being painted.

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Here is a major film producer making a documentary basically labeling anyone who claims the name of Christ anything

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Biblical and pertaining to Scripture, all of a sudden you're labeled a

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Christian nationalist, and that's what this is trying to say. And I get we should be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out.

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Time out. But again, when we get back into the conversation, the issues that we are having with some of the stuff that Owen Strand was saying was basically lumping our position as post -millennialists and theonomists into this

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Christian nationalist camp, and we're saying no, they're not necessarily the same thing.

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Yeah, I would agree. Okay, we'll continue. We are in a civil war between good and evil.

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This is not a movement about Christian values. This is about Christian power. What happens to the people who don't believe this stuff?

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We are on the precipice. God is on our side! Sorry. You gotta get an

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Alex Jones clip in there, right? Sorry, that was a delayed stop. It just took me a second. They're implying that if you don't hold to these

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Christian values, then Christian nationalists, what are they going to do to you? Come on!

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The picture they're painting is that people that hold to this position, again, any sort of orthodox

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Christianity basically is being lumped into this. If you hold to anything orthodox, then you're now a terrorist, and you're an extremist.

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I'm not saying this lightly. I forgot to pull it up, but Biden put out a extremist terrorist list.

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Homeland terrorist list or something like that. A lot of the stuff that we do was on that list. Trying to save babies.

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I don't doubt that's how the state views us. There's no question.

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That's why I think we fully acknowledge that the displays of what the liberal media has come to label as Christian nationalists, the

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Trump dressed up like Christ wearing the MAGA hat with the American flag draped in the background.

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Obvious idolatry. Fully reject that. Want no part in it.

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Our highest commitment is to Christ and his kingship regardless of who occupies the

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Oval Office. Especially during this time. You have the likely choice between two evil men.

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Once again, those are things obviously that we fully reject in terms of, this is the corner that we're going to try to paint you in right here, is this group of crazies with the

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American flag draped all over what you believe that are trying to storm the

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White House. We're taking our nation back.

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The thing that keeps me up at night is that we lose democracy. Does that seem possible? Yes. Important point.

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We're not arguing for democracy. We're arguing for a republic which is what our nation is.

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This is such a little twist of facts and truth that the left uses.

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I've been hearing this quite a bit lately. Our nation is a constitutional republic.

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We're not actually a democracy. We're not arguing for democracy because all that democracy does, it's just another form of idolatry.

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Then you worship the people, that becomes your god. That's what the left, so they're saying that the

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Christian nationals are trying to take down democracy and they're fighting for authoritarianism and all this.

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No, actually that's what you guys are doing. They're trying to form a democracy where the people deem us becomes the authority.

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Vox Populi, Vox Dei. The voice of the people is the voice of God. Essentially. I think that's what our young people have been discipled in for a couple of generations now.

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In the school system, the language from our constitution about the people has been abused, like all other language has in the hands of leftists, to weaponize the culture against the family, against godly sexuality, against marriage, against the nuclear family unit, if you will, against the idea of covenant.

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It's all been turned, their collective guns have been turned at language to say, look, this is talking about the people, therefore the people are the government.

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This is all about democracy. Whereas you pointed out the difference we would say with the republic is that there's a law above the people to which they're accountable.

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And their elected officials are accountable to the same law. And so we all have a standard above us under the type of system that we're advocating for.

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Whereas their standard is they're at the center of what they want. Yeah. Excellent.

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All right. Christianity at its best is committed to love and truth and justice.

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If we do this right, what a country we will be. I would say that the kind of people that are making these movies certainly don't care about the original intention of what our founders wanted this country to be.

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Yep. They are wanting to create this nation into something brand new.

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And it is a utopia, which ironically means nowhere. So they're wanting to take the

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United States of America and make it a place of progressive nowhere in which you're the authority and we're going to impose our views in the public system and maybe even slap the name

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Jesus on it. In the name of Christ, we're going to upend this nation.

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Yes. Amen. All right. So that was that. I wanted to briefly discuss that. And again,

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I think it's important to this conversation. So we're going to go right back now to that panel discussion.

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And we're going to pick up here at 31 minutes. This was a this was a really good quote from Jonathan Edwards they're going to discuss.

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And so we'll just, I'll just stop here when we're ready to talk about. I think

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Jonathan Edwards was a post mill, and I'm an all mill, and Edwards took his post mill early as God to do a greater work in the days ahead.

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He had this optimistic foresight of what God was going to do.

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And that led him to preach the gospel. That led him to pray for revival. That led him to focus not on politics, but on preaching salvation.

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And I think what the church needs is to be strong. I think the gospel

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Paul says, I've determined not to know anything else but this message, the gospel. So you can charge me with just being focused on the gospel.

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I like what James says, it's the gospel is more than just one simple statement. It's all of life, and Paul says that's my message.

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I'm not getting away from that. And if we want a better nation then we preach the gospel.

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That's what I think we should all agree upon is that we need it to be a work from within, not from without.

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We don't need just legislation telling people how to live and God's going to judge you because you don't measure up.

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We only give that message to bring the greater message that there's a hope of salvation. And once there's regeneration, then there's real change, and when there's real change there can be indirect effects around our community that raises the level of common grace around us.

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So the gospel is the answer to a better society. Amen.

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Yeah, I don't know if I disagree with any of that. Yeah, and I was so glad that he brought that up.

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You know, and I love these, like Jonathan Edwards is like, he was post -mill, and that gave him, you know, hope for the future.

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What's kind of underlying here, and we talked about this last week, is there seems to be this artificial dichotomy.

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I can't remember the word. Dichotomy, that was the word. Like, there's a wedge that they're sticking in to say, like, they have to be separate.

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We can't preach the gospel and tell the legislators. It's today.

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Legislature what to do. Why? Why can't it be yes and?

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And that's what we're saying is it should, again, start with the gospel, it should start with the individual, and we should be telling our civil government to kiss the sun lest you get smoked.

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Right? Like, that's what we should be doing, but it all starts with the gospel, stems from the gospel. It's just frustrating, and I'm not accusing him of saying that because he's not saying that, but that's the underlying kind of thought behind him saying that is, and he's right what he said there.

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Everything he said, I agree with completely. Yeah, and I think we have to remember, too, this is the only thing I would add, is that a giant like Wilberforce, who oversaw the abolition of the slave trade, he was a product of preaching from the movement that Edwards was a part of.

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The Great Awakening. And so this nation, yes and amen, needs white -hot gospel preaching.

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Preaching the new birth. Preaching, you know, you must be born again to even see the kingdom. You need to be changed from the inside out.

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That needs to be heralded from our lips, from our pulpits, from the open air and the public square.

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But then, what God has been known to historically do by that is to raise up cultural reformers that work for justice in the public square and actually accomplish this.

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And that's what William Wilberforce was. He was a product of that preaching, and he was only working to establish externally in the culture a righteousness that he had inherited by faith in Christ by believing in the gospel and having a changed heart.

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So once again, these things are not in an antagonistic relationship with one another.

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They are harmonious. They work together. Justice and grace go hand in hand.

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And if we want to see change in our land, in our culture, amongst family relationships, in our churches, in the legislature, in every area of life, then yes, we will preach the gospel of grace.

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Salvation by grace through faith in Christ, calling people to be born again.

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But we shouldn't be utterly shocked when God actually works through his ordained means, saves people in their various vocations, and raises up complete giants that are irritants, culturally speaking, in the ears of those in authority and who completely turn the system on its head, like your

34:53

John the Baptists, like your William Wilber Forces, like all of these controversial figures that stood for righteousness and changed things.

35:01

They actually improved what you would call the common grace. That is the state of the world all around us.

35:09

Even though it's not professing faith in Jesus, it still benefits from the fruit of their work in an external fashion.

35:16

It comes to embody the benefits of a Christian culture. Amen. So I might be getting a little bit ahead of myself here, because I think this comes up later, but you reminded me, and I'm so glad you said this,

35:28

I'm just going to say it now. The word culture itself, cultivate, it's the same root word.

35:35

It's an agricultural term. It's to till, to till the ground. And so the culture really, and I've heard people say this, the state of the culture is the report card of the church, essentially.

35:48

And if we're doing what they're saying, if the church is being faithful and we're preaching the gospel, which we're saying we should be doing, then you're cultivating the ground.

36:01

You're cultivating the society around you, your community. You're sowing, you're tilling, you're building.

36:08

Exactly. And so the culture should reflect what the state of the church, and clearly the church is failing to have that prophetic vision into the culture, into society, because the culture is not reflecting

36:25

Christ. It's not reflecting biblical standards of morality. Or to say it in another biblical way, we're reaping what we've sown.

36:31

Bingo. Which is nothing. It's a principle in scripture. You reap what you sow.

36:37

That's not to guarantee that God is going to completely transform a people. It's a principle in scripture that when you sow a particular seed into the ground, you get a particular result.

36:50

And that's exactly what you're talking about. It's cultus, cultic, agriculture, all of this has to do with what are we planting?

37:02

What's the type of seed that's going into the ground? Because that's the type of fruit that we're going to get.

37:09

And we have such rotten fruit in our land and in our nation because we've had bad seed for a long time.

37:18

But that seed has produced a certain result. And when we cultivate and till and build and sow righteousness,

37:29

Jesus promises to actually have an effect on that. What does Christ say about his own life and ministry?

37:35

He says, unless a seed goes into the ground and dies, it won't bear any fruit.

37:42

He's talking about himself, which is the way of life that we're to follow in Christ's footsteps.

37:47

We're to lay ourselves down, take up our cross, sacrifice ourselves, die, and rise again.

37:55

And that dying and rising again of the Christian life is actually what produces fruit. That self -sacrifice is actually what brings about change, and that change has a healing, sanctifying effect on the world around us.

38:09

It actually does something. So that's the point of this, is that we believe in faith as Christians that the words we speak in faith, the actions that we take in faith, they actually do something.

38:21

They're effectual when they're based on God's word and his promises. And in faith, as we die to ourselves, that actually produces a certain result.

38:31

Is that really what we're going to believe? Is that when we obey the promises of God that he's not going to bless it?

38:41

Yeah. No, dude, thank you for that. And I'm going to take this analogy even a little bit further.

38:46

I wasn't intending to go this far, but I'm thinking through it. You grew up in Arizona. You know that even in Arizona, when you do nothing to the ground, you get weeds.

38:58

Springtime, falltime, you're going to get weeds. Even when you do nothing at all. And so when there's no green grass in the culture, there's no fruit being brought, like righteous fruit being brought forth from the culture.

39:17

It's because the church, it's not even that we're necessarily using bad seeds.

39:25

We're not seeding at all. And so the weeds are just growing everywhere.

39:31

And instead of proactively trying to kill the weeds, we're just sitting back as, when

39:39

I say we, the church, as a whole in our culture, in our nation, it's just kind of been sitting back and just watching the weeds grow all over the place.

39:47

We could go forever on this point. There's so much application because what does gardening also entail? Not just the positive sowing, but the active uprooting of the weeds so that it doesn't choke out the fruitful productivity you have going on right here.

40:03

And it's like, man, there's a lot of weeds in the church. There's a lot of weeds in the culture. And it's because there haven't been faithful gardeners to go out and pull up the weeds also alongside the sowing.

40:14

And that's why we're reaping a whirlwind. Because we have all this mess around us that's choking out our effectiveness.

40:22

Well, and even worse than that, even worse than what we're seeing now, what we just saw in that trailer from these liberal leftist

40:30

Christians we're talking about, the church has not only sat back and done nothing, allowed weeds to take root, but now we're starting to see

40:40

Christians actually planting those weeds. They're taking that and taking those thoughts and the worldview, the perspective of the left and planting those seeds into the church.

40:58

It's like, you know, before the church used to at least the gates of the church would keep those weeds out.

41:05

But now it's like these liberals are bringing the weeds into the church. Into the sanctuary. Exactly. Bingo.

41:10

And we're helping. We're helping. Oh, yeah. Bring it in. I mean, not we exactly, but I'm saying the church as a whole.

41:17

Exactly. Okay, so that was good. I wasn't planning on going that depth. I like that analogy. Sometimes it's funny.

41:24

One thought can carry you. I'd like to further that thought actually. Yeah. Okay, so this next part here, this was

41:33

Scott, a good brother from G3. He responds to what we were just talking about.

41:40

And this is a really, if we don't get to anything else, this is a really important part of the conversation. I want to make sure we spend some time on it.

41:48

I think this really gets to the nub of the concerns I have with some of the dialogue that's out there in the co -Christian nationalism discussion.

41:59

And that, because I agree with everything that's been said. I agree with everything that James said. The gospel itself will produce strong, faithful Christians in society who will speak truth, who will defend righteousness, who will be active in their vocations.

42:14

And there's an emphasis on this in scripture, right? But the order in which that takes place is important.

42:21

We can't expect people to act like Christians who are not Christians, who have not repented of their sins and trusted

42:27

Christ by faith, whose hearts have not been regenerated. So, by beginning with the church's mission of boldly proclaiming the gospel...

42:35

Can we stop it for just one second? Yes. I don't want to let this thaw out. I know. Because this is really important.

42:41

And I hear Christians say this a lot, actually. It doesn't just come from leadership at this kind of level.

42:47

It comes from the general spirit of the Christian culture. And that is this sentiment that you can't expect unbelievers to behave like Christians.

42:57

If that's the case, then who are we calling to repent in our gospel proclamation?

43:04

Because the call to repentance is an expectation that people will bow the knee to Jesus and turn from their sin.

43:12

It is the assumption that they have violated God's law, His holy law, violated

43:17

His character, and that they need to turn from their sin. They need to turn from unrighteousness to righteousness.

43:24

Now, what is that, from the Christian perspective, if not an expectation that they behave like Christians?

43:33

And I don't just mean outwardly conforming to a standard, but we are calling them, of course, in the core of their being to acknowledge

43:42

Jesus as Lord and to submit their entire lives to Him. That includes the way that they use their bodies.

43:49

That includes the way that they think. We're calling them to total submission, to completely be changed from the inside out.

44:01

That's what we mean when we proclaim the gospel, which always comes with a call to repentance. So to say, we can't expect unbelievers to live like believers, does

44:12

God expect unbelievers to live like believers? And if not, why is it in the

44:19

Scriptures we see that the call is that the people of God would be sent out into all the nations and proclaim a gospel of repentance to the entire world?

44:30

We're assuming something. We're assuming a certain authority, that they're under it, and that we actually also have a mechanism by which to expect a level of righteousness.

44:44

Now, we trust God to grant the root of that righteousness by giving a changed heart, but I think we're about to make a connection here too to what it means in a civil sense, as far as justice goes.

44:56

I think the context in which He's headed is, how can we expect unbelievers to do public righteousness?

45:04

And in a certain sense, yes, I agree with what you're saying, right?

45:10

Like, we ought not to be surprised when those who love death and love their sin run off the cliff.

45:18

A yes and amen, because that's what people do without Christ. That's what people do who are at war with God and in rebellion against His ways.

45:25

So, yes, if that's what you mean, absolutely. We have no reason to expect that they will, unless God changes them, and changes our culture and changes our nation, which is why the call of the gospel is to repent and believe.

45:39

But still, there's that expectation there that yes, this is the expectation of God that you would submit in mind, heart, body, all of you, to Jesus as King.

45:49

Yes, preach. Yeah, I wanted to really spend time on this point right here.

45:59

I don't believe Brother Scott is two kingdom, but what he just said is very much two kingdom.

46:06

That's... Perhaps in one way he is, in a classical maybe sense. I don't think it's the radical

46:13

R2K necessarily, but I think he does see some type of division. Exactly, yeah, for sure.

46:19

I'd want to know more, but that statement in and of itself, just when I heard that, I was like, that's just two kingdom theology.

46:27

And again, Brother Scott, if you hear this, I'm not at all accusing you of being that. I just want to point this out.

46:34

That's the prophetic vision we're talking about in Proverbs. It's calling, it's... Yes, you should expect the culture to kiss the sun unless you perish.

46:43

That's Christ when he says the Father led you, you will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

46:51

I've been given this authority, therefore go... All that authority that Christ was given that he talks about, it's given to us to go to the world and tell them, kiss the sun unless you perish in the way.

47:02

What else? It's simple. And again, we talked about this last week, I think we make it too complicated when we start trying to explain things away and, yeah,

47:11

I don't know about that. It's like, no, it's simple. Go to the culture, you go out into the world and you tell them to repent, to bow before the sun, and we should expect that.

47:19

And guess what? The culture is going to laugh at us if we can't come to them with that authority, if we can't come to them with believing that Christ will save them.

47:32

They're just going to laugh at us and be like, you don't even believe that. How can you tell me to repent and kiss the sun?

47:38

You don't even believe that. And so, yes, we should expect that. And that's, from our perspective, that's why the church is failing because we don't have that prophetic vision, therefore the people are casting off restraint.

47:52

Okay, continuing. The commission's not over yet. You have to baptize them, which means church membership, and now we're going to teach them to observe everything that Christ commanded, which is more than just believing the essential truths of the gospel.

48:07

It's all of what Christ commanded, which includes living faithfully in the society, that if we understand that ordering and that being the encapsulation of the

48:18

Great Commission, then we need to help this young man understand that what we're doing is we're producing, perhaps, a

48:25

Wilberforce or other people in various vocations who are going to stand strong. And what

48:31

I want to urge people to understand is, at the end of the day, then, we agree on what we ought to be doing now.

48:38

I love how you've interacted on this because you're expecting spiritual revival.

48:44

You're expecting the gospel to do a work in people's hearts, and then, in your eschatology, that's going to impact society.

48:51

So, in my eschatology, it can't be forced any other way, or it's surface level, and it'll die.

48:56

So, again, that second part, they're like, yes, absolutely. And that's what we're saying, and we get accused of the opposite.

49:04

And, again, I know they're trying to critique Christian nationalism, but we kind of have gotten post -millennialists have gotten lumped into the same position.

49:13

That's what we're saying. Again, it starts at the bottom, and it works its way up. No one is saying that we should try to enforce

49:21

Christianity top -down. We're not saying that. And so, I agree with what

49:26

Scott said. When you do the Great Commission appropriately, that's what you do.

49:32

You lead people to Christ, you baptize them, and then you teach them all that God has commanded, all that Christ commanded, which includes the standards for law and justice and morality, all of those things.

49:44

And, anyways... I would just say one thing in addition to that, because there's an expectation from our perspective, given the position that we hold, that that endeavor will actually be successful.

50:00

But I think that the problem is that the Church has hermetically sealed itself from an outward -facing proclamation to the civil sphere altogether.

50:11

Because, quote -unquote, that's not our job. That's what we've believed, is that the

50:18

Church has nothing to say to those who hold the keys of power, that we don't need to tell them that they're under the authority of King Jesus, that they're gonna give an account to Him for the way that they've governed, that the only reason they have that office is because He gave it to them.

50:32

He installed them, and He can depose them just as quickly. And I think that the Church has largely abdicated that responsibility.

50:40

So it's not even on our radar that a government official would repent. Why? Because we're not even preaching the

50:46

Gospel to them. Yeah. Because we see these things as so divided, right?

50:52

The faith doesn't touch the office, right? These are two separate things that don't meet, right?

51:00

My Christian conviction not only shouldn't inform, you know, the way that I vote, as a lot of people are of the mind of, but that as a legislator, as a

51:10

Christian, right, I should just try to play this neutral game and uphold a pluralistic sense of religious liberty for all.

51:19

Right? Not work to impose a righteous morality in the legislation that I author and what

51:25

I fight for and fight for my worldview, but this whole compromised neutrality.

51:33

So I think the core problem is that Christians have not taught their elected officials what

51:42

God expects of them, what He requires of them. Yes, that call to kiss the sun is a salvific call at yes and amen, but within that salvific call includes the demand that they act justly, right?

51:55

That they stop showing partiality, that they rule in such a way as fears

52:01

God. They need to fear the Lord in their office, and Christians have absolutely dropped the ball altogether in that.

52:09

So it's one thing to say, well, we according to our system, we don't expect this to happen.

52:14

Well, is the church even doing it? Right. Are we even going to them and saying this is what you ought to do?

52:20

And if we are doing that, are we expecting them to behave like believers?

52:27

Right. With the call of repentance? Amen. Okay, so I'm going to skip ahead here, and I'm going to try, can you go a little bit longer today?

52:37

Okay. We'll try to get through all this. I've got some time we can do a long show today. I'm skipping ahead to 39 minutes where Dr.

52:45

White talks about the Great Commission here. ...as even a possibility, but what do you think the connection is between the preceding verse when

52:57

Jesus says all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth therefore go.

53:07

See, from my perspective that is just so freeing and joy inducing because when we are told to go, we are being told to go by the one who has all authority in heaven and on earth.

53:26

And so when people tell us on earth, oh no no, and it's already happening, and it's going to happen more and more.

53:33

It's happening in the European Union. They're bringing people up on charges for writing biblical pamphlets 14 years ago or something like that.

53:43

They're bringing them up on charges now. It's going to happen here unless there's a major change.

53:48

But in the midst of all that, we press on because the one who has all authority on earth has commanded us to do so.

53:58

That's the emphasis that I see. Would you see that connection as well? Okay, so obviously we agree with that.

54:08

We see that connection, Pastor James. Yes. So I'm just going to keep going. I wanted to play that because I was like, that's a great answer, and then it's a great question.

54:17

And so we're going to get into Jeff Moore's response then because there's some really important stuff here. Formulate a question out of that for me.

54:25

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. Would you say that the reason Jesus says, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth,

54:34

I am now sending you into every ethne. And many of those ethnes are going to try to say, don't do this.

54:40

They're going to try to stop you. And I have all authority, and therefore you go despite what the ethne says.

54:48

You go and you make disciples, which is what motivated people going into the

54:53

Soviet Union. During the Reformation, when Geneva sent a stream of missionaries into Italy, almost all of whom died.

55:06

Why did they do that? Because they believed that Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth, and Jesus commanded them to go.

55:13

You still didn't ask a question. I entirely believe that. My point is just there is a separation.

55:20

There is a part from the whole aspect to that. Right. You can't baptize a nation.

55:26

That's right. But you can baptize those who believe in that nation, and the point is all nations are fair game because Jesus is

55:34

Lord. Would we all agree on that? There you go. And the Apostle Paul did not go to the...

55:40

Get that mic up there, brother, because you're not a singer. Scott and I are both sitting here going, he doesn't sing much, does he?

55:46

No, he doesn't. You've got to eat this thing if you want to get hurt. I used to. Very scary, but that is in my former life.

55:55

Haven't done it in a while. But yeah, so the point I would make, the Apostle Paul doesn't go to the sovereign power over the nation and call the entire nation to somehow come to respond in repentance and faith.

56:08

He does go into hard places and call individuals to do that, and whoever responds, those are the ones whom we disciple, who were the elect.

56:18

Can I just say... Okay, so do you want to say anything on that?

56:26

I do, but you can go ahead first if you'd like. Actually, I'm going to keep...

56:32

I had James Cote's response next, which is right now anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and play his, and then we'll respond to that entirely.

56:40

I think you guys are saying the same thing. Yeah, we are. And when you talk about the authority in verse, which verse is that?

56:46

Is it 18? No. Yeah, 18. Is it 18? When you talk about that authority, you're talking in a way that I'm incredibly comfortable with.

56:53

What I'm hearing though is that because all authority belongs to Christ in heaven and on earth, go and disciple the nations and expect them to be

57:05

Christianized with a post -millennial eschatology, like with a post -millennial promise.

57:12

And that's the issue, because as soon as you do that... So I think you nailed it. What's the implication of all authority being in Christ and then commanding us to go?

57:21

That means we can go. If a nation says, no, you can't go, and we sneak in and we go anyway because we're authorized by heaven, amen, we can do that.

57:29

We may be penalized for it. This side of the judgment. Got to pay for it.

57:35

But we're authorized to go. So there may have been a time in my life when I would have thought, no, if a nation's closed, we shouldn't go.

57:42

Romans 13. No, that's wrong. Christ has commissioned us to go to every nation, regardless of whether it's open or not, and we're permitted to go.

57:51

And if it's closed, we just got to be willing to bear up under the consequences if we're penalized for doing so.

57:57

But I think you're speaking in a way that I'm entirely comfortable with, but that's not what I'm hearing from a number of folks.

58:06

Okay, so going back to what Jeff Moore said, one, just because the

58:18

Apostle Paul, I mean, there's no record of him going to an authority. That's what he's claiming, that he didn't go into any authorities, went into the culture, essentially, and called and repented.

58:26

So I think the point he was trying to make was, well, he didn't do that, so why should we? I mean, there's plenty of examples of even in the

58:33

New Testament that John the Baptist, for example, you know, in the Book of Acts, like they're going...

58:39

You're referring to John's chastisement that the elected official should not be an adulterer.

58:47

Right? It's unlawful for him to have his brother's wife. Exactly. So he's expecting the ruling authority to obey

58:55

God's law. Exactly. Right? Yep. And on that note, I would just I was looking for this verse.

59:02

I was hoping I would find it here. It's in the Book of Acts, just like you were pointing out here.

59:07

I think it's Acts 24 -25. And this is the

59:16

Apostle Paul here in verse 24. After some days

59:21

Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who is Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.

59:29

Okay? So Paul's got his opportunity here now to share the gospel as he keeps advancing up the chain of authority.

59:35

And as he reasoned about righteousness and self -control and the coming judgment,

59:42

Felix was alarmed and said, go away for the present. When I get an opportunity,

59:48

I will summon you. So there you have the inspired apostle preaching righteousness, self -control, and the coming judgment to another elected official.

01:00:01

So, yet again, another example of the expectation that those in authority would bow the knee to Jesus.

01:00:09

And you see this kind of example throughout the entire Book of Acts, which, as we know, Christians over the past decade or so have been fond of saying, we need to get back to the ministry of the apostles.

01:00:19

We need to get back to the early church. But in that call to return to the glory of the past, often what's left out from that is the kind of risky, bold gospel proclamation that the early apostles had.

01:00:35

The kind of proclamation that actually turned the city upside down when they proclaimed it.

01:00:41

Like we see in Acts chapter 17. And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city authorities, shouting, these men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has received them.

01:00:54

And they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus. And then verse 8, and the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard these things.

01:01:09

So again, the kind of gospel that the apostles were proclaiming had implications for the government authorities, and they felt it.

01:01:18

They felt it because they were disturbed. And those are two examples that when righteousness, self -control, which is basically what?

01:01:27

Self -government. How do we get self -government? By the ministry of the Holy Spirit and being born again. And judgment, the fact that we're all going to stand before King Jesus and give an account.

01:01:38

All of those things, when they're preached, what did they cause amongst the city authorities and the entire culture, basically?

01:01:44

Disturbance. Uncomfortability. That things were not all right with the condition of these people's souls.

01:01:53

Such a great point. And we say this all the time, but the early

01:01:58

Christians, they weren't persecuted because they were Christians.

01:02:05

Because they believed in God. Because Rome welcomed all these different religions and bragged about it, like, look at us.

01:02:12

It sounds a lot like Demas. Look at us, except for Christians.

01:02:17

It sounds very familiar, doesn't it? Let's talk about that in the after show. Look at all these religions that we welcome into our culture.

01:02:26

The only rule is that you have to say, Caesar is Lord. Kiss Caesar's ring.

01:02:32

That's the only rule. You can believe whatever you want. Pinch of incense in homage to Caesar.

01:02:38

We will definitely talk about this in the after show. This is great. I don't want to get off track here. But the early Christians were like, no. We have no

01:02:45

King but Christ. Do you think that in them saying that to the civil magistrates that there was no gospel proclamation, do you think that they were just like,

01:02:57

Jesus is Lord, but you do your thing. I can promise you they were saying

01:03:03

Jesus is Lord, now kiss the sun lest you perish. Do we really think that that was what was going on?

01:03:10

I would say absolutely not. And we know why. Because the Acts of the

01:03:16

Apostles, the Acts of the Holy Spirit, the book, is really bookended by Paul proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom.

01:03:25

That's what he was teaching everywhere he went. And that's what Jesus was teaching in the gospels.

01:03:30

He was proclaiming the good news about a kingdom. And that kingdom comes into conflict with the kingdoms of the world.

01:03:35

Because there is an alternative source of authority being proposed to all men everywhere.

01:03:41

In every sphere of authority. Whether that be familial, social, civic, in the public square, whatever area of life, whatever sphere of jurisdiction you want to talk about,

01:03:57

Jesus is Lord over all of it. And so, that carries with it, in that call to repentance, an expectation to obey.

01:04:05

To obey and kiss the sun. So, obedience is implied in that.

01:04:11

Like, what does Paul bookend his magnum opus of the gospel in the book of Romans?

01:04:16

He says what? I've received this commission to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations.

01:04:25

And in Romans 16, at the end, according to the command of the everlasting God. To bring about the obedience of faith.

01:04:33

Right? Faith has an obedience behind it. That's the good news of the kingdom.

01:04:40

Yes, and amen. I don't want to lose what James Coates said here.

01:04:47

Again, I agreed with a lot of what he was saying. He was saying, I agree with you Dr. White. They were in agreement. The thing that I was like, it's this,

01:04:57

I don't understand what is so bad about post -millennialism.

01:05:03

I don't understand why these guys get so upset about it. Yeah, you should be doing these things. You should be doing the great commission.

01:05:10

But, if that includes preaching post -millennialism, a post -millennial view, then that's not okay.

01:05:18

I don't understand, I just don't understand why they get so upset about this. One, but two, and I want you to jump on this, but that's something that for us,

01:05:29

I'm just going to speak solely for myself, and again, lumping this together with Christian Nationals, I don't have any friends really that claim that title, except maybe

01:05:39

Doug. I'm sure I do, but no one that I can think of off the top of my head. That's part of teaching all that Christ has commanded.

01:05:49

We're just saying we should think long -term, and Christ has promised to put all these things under his feet.

01:05:57

We're just preaching what the word says, and I don't know why that's such a bad thing.

01:06:06

I think it comes down to, I think I talked about this last week too, and there's a mechanism within the system that disallows expectation of success.

01:06:17

Because we're talking about, yes, agreed, but that's over there.

01:06:24

That's on the other side of this whole thing when Jesus comes back with finality.

01:06:30

So that's personally what I think about it, but it is interesting, isn't it? Now just calm down.

01:06:38

Don't think that this is actually going to be fruitful and successful. You're a little too jolly about this.

01:06:44

You're a little too happy for my taste. That's how it least hits me.

01:06:53

It hits me like a wave that comes over me, not as if they're being a

01:06:58

Debbie Downer or something. I know these men have a lot of joy as believers in the Lord. I'm not saying they're joyless, but I am saying it's odd that the kind of reaction to this has been, if you believe, if you have an optimistic view of the future that is misguided, it's naive, and you need to taper your expectations a little bit.

01:07:19

You need to bring it down a notch because Jesus is not going to do any of this on this side of history.

01:07:25

Even going back to the verses we read at the beginning of Isaiah 9, verse 7, the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end.

01:07:35

We're saying Christ's rule and reign was inaugurated in the first century.

01:07:43

Run to us, a child is born, and a son is given. He's ruling and reigning.

01:07:50

Incarnation. There will be, or the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end. It will continue to grow until everything is placed under his feet.

01:07:59

And then it goes on to say to establish it and uphold it with justice and righteousness. What is justice?

01:08:07

Is that only, do we think that justice is only a salvific term? Or do we think bigger than that?

01:08:15

And I know what we think. We think that it includes the civil realm.

01:08:21

That justice involves government of the civil realm. Not just all,

01:08:26

I mean all the realms of government, but when it comes to the laws of the land and, you know, the death penalty or abortion, like go down the list, all those things, like that involves justice and we're arguing for biblical justice and biblical righteousness.

01:08:43

Why is that such a bad thing? I think that's one of the major pillars that where the disagreement usually starts happening is what kind of laws should we work for and advocate for?

01:08:55

Because I know they agree that there should be righteousness in the public square in terms of love for neighbor.

01:09:01

They believe in such a thing as just laws. But always where the conversation seems to get bogged down is, you know, we don't want to impose or compel by force of religion people to believe.

01:09:15

And amen. I mean, I don't either. I want them to be spirit born and spirit led and this to be a love within the hearts of the people that long for justice.

01:09:24

I almost said justiceness like righteousness and justice. But there's a difference between that and the expectation that somebody's standard of morality will be imposed.

01:09:37

It's unavoidable. As we're seeing right now, like we're seeing concrete examples of this in the culture of believers in public office playing this neutral game.

01:09:49

And how's that working out? Well, it's working out just like the status quo was in the time of the apostles, where you had all these different world views vying for their seat at the table and then

01:10:00

Caesar being over all of them and approving the religious expression. That's authorized.

01:10:06

That the state says, yes, that has the green light. Go ahead, as long as you pay homage to Caesar. We live in a very similar context and we have to be willing to fight for our worldview and not be shamed under the label of Christian nationalists because we understand that there's no such thing as neutrality and somebody's worldview is going to inform public policy.

01:10:29

And that includes not only the principles of our laws, but how those principles get meted out in their penalties for violating those laws.

01:10:38

Exactly. And again, and we'll move on to the next one here in a second, but to kind of jump on something you said, um if someone claiming to be a

01:10:49

Christian nationalist is arguing for you know Christ top down and forcing people to bow to the sun through coercion, we're very much against that.

01:11:03

If that's your definition, yeah, I'm not on board with that because again, we're saying bottom up but we still should call our legislators to enforce

01:11:18

Biblical law, Biblical standard of law and justice because God is our creator and Christ is ruined.

01:11:26

Yeah, He knows what's best for us and it's actually His way of doing things that promotes human flourishing.

01:11:33

It actually is what produces that thing that you guys love and that we love, which is that common grace culture that elevates the standard of living, that elevates justice and the concern for victims and the oppressed.

01:11:48

That only comes from a Christian worldview. It only comes as we demand justice according to God's standards.

01:11:56

There's no other worldview that produces the kind of human flourishing that the Biblical worldview does.

01:12:02

It's just unavoidable. If we love so much living in the remnants of a Christian culture that we're running on the fumes of right now, we have to understand that it came from somewhere and the reason we've lost it is because we've got away from proclaiming that truth to those who do hold the keys of authority to make those changes.

01:12:20

Yeah, and even I'll just say this and move on to the next point. We got two more points

01:12:26

I want to get to here. Even Doug, we mentioned last week his what are best dialogues with Dr.

01:12:34

White, even in his arguing for his mere Christendom position, he's very clear, and I actually appreciate this about him, he's not arguing like what we were just talking about, making a

01:12:49

Christian nation from top down. His argument is all he's saying is look,

01:12:56

I believe that one day this is all going to be put under the feet of Christ and when that happens, this is how things should be organized and run.

01:13:06

That's all that he's arguing for. It's basically like he's thinking, and it may be a thousand years down the road, he's thinking down the road like saying, hey, if we ever get to this point, not if, when we get to this point, because I have a post -millennial hope that this will happen at some point in history, when we get there, this is how

01:13:25

I think things should be run. And I'm like, okay, I respect that. You're way ahead of me in that.

01:13:32

I haven't thought that far down, and I would have disagreements even with him on how that should be run, but the point

01:13:40

I'm making is he's not arguing, even his when he's promoting that flavor of Christian nationalism, he's not arguing for what they're trying to speak against.

01:13:52

Yeah, and just last thing on that, but that doesn't mean because we acknowledge that righteousness, true righteousness needs to be spirit born from within, that the servant of Yahweh bears a sword.

01:14:08

Yeah. And the sword is an instrument of coercion. Like it or not, it is about power, and it is about wielding authority.

01:14:18

The question is do we want it to be wielded demonically by demonic power, or do we want to call on elected officials to wield it righteously?

01:14:28

Amen. Okay, second to last point, this here, let me make sure

01:14:33

I have the right spot, yes, so this discussion we're about to have is really important, and I actually,

01:14:42

I can't remember in our, in previous shows, I know this is something I've wanted to get to,

01:14:48

I don't know that we actually have yet, so I'm really glad that we're going to have time to do this discussion here right now.

01:14:56

The question comes in, though, in my mind, let's just, let me just assume for the sake of argument that Christianizing nations is a good thing.

01:15:05

Let's say that God does some massive work here in America, and the hearts of people are changed, there is a gospel awakening, what happens the next generation?

01:15:17

As Baptists, we believe we've got to repent, we've got to believe that heart change has to happen, it is signified through Baptism, but then when people have babies, you have 100 % awakening, 100 %

01:15:34

Christians, when they have babies, there's no guarantee that those babies will be

01:15:39

Christians, so what happens to the Christianess of the nation at that point?

01:15:45

That fits better, I grew up Presbyterian, so that fits much better in the Presbyterian paradigm, because those babies are considered children of the covenant, they're considered non -community members of the church, but in a

01:15:57

Baptist paradigm, that's where I'm really struggling. Within a Baptist paradigm, you're still trusting upon the

01:16:03

Holy Spirit of God. In other words, he's bringing these promises to fulfillment, and so he's going to continue to draw his people unto himself, however, as many as the sand of the sea.

01:16:16

That's what he said to Abraham, that's how many of your descendants will be. Okay, so James, I think, has a really good answer following that, but He'll get accused of being a paedo -Baptist.

01:16:30

So, I've been wanting to get to this part of this conversation, not just in this panel discussion here, but in general, in the

01:16:40

Christian nationalism discussion. Whenever I hear this come up, whether it should be, and this is something that Doug and James kind of went back and forth with on the sweater vest dialogues, where Doug would argue that it should be, you know, when we get to this point, that it should be

01:16:59

Presbyterian, and James, of course, is arguing for the Baptist position. Every time

01:17:04

I hear this conversation, I'm like, why are we even having this conversation? I feel like it's the wrong conversation to even be having.

01:17:11

Like, and for what Jeff Moore was saying there, you know, okay, so say we reach that point, it is 100 %

01:17:20

Christian, you know, and then he's worried about the babies. He's like, well, if the church is still being faithful, if we've gotten to that point, it's because the church is being faithful, whether you're

01:17:28

Presbyterian or Baptist. Like, we can unite on the gospel and be faithful, and have, you know, a

01:17:35

Christian heritage, Christian arrows we're shooting out all over the place, and it's because we're being faithful to the gospel and to the

01:17:44

Great Commission. If the only way at that point that our babies, the babies of that nation would fall away is if we stopped as a whole, as a church, being faithful, and we stopped the gospel witness, the prophetic vision that we talk about.

01:18:02

That's how that would happen, and I just don't think that I just don't think that the conversation about, well, what's right here,

01:18:10

Presbyterianism, you know, Paedo -Communion, or Credo, I mean, Baptism or Credo, like,

01:18:16

I don't think that's the right conversation to be had, period. The conversation should just be, are we being faithful to the

01:18:24

Great Commission? I completely sympathize with this line of thinking, though, because I've thought about this a lot, actually.

01:18:31

If you look at movements in history where the gospel spread like wildfire and a culture was completely changed for Christ, sometimes what you have happen directly afterwards are the descendants of those same faithful Christians who muck it all up.

01:18:49

And we ask ourselves the question, well, how in the world did that happen? Like, they completely transformed that culture for Christ, and then just mass unfaithfulness that led to a lot of people being abused.

01:19:01

And so I sympathize with this line of reasoning, and I've asked myself, where's the disconnect?

01:19:08

And I think, like you said, the discussion can be resolved with one word, and that's a word that both

01:19:15

Presbyterians and Baptists collectively unite on for our children, and that's faith. We're trusting the

01:19:22

Lord to carry on our work to the generation to come, and the next generation.

01:19:29

Whether or not we believe that they are in the covenant from their birth.

01:19:36

Either way, we in faith raise them in the fear and instruction of the Lord, and we engage in the active family evangelism and discipleship, because that's what

01:19:45

God has commanded us to do, and we trust Him to save our children, and we trust Him with the results of carrying on that work after we're gone.

01:19:54

Because that's a Biblical concept to pass on the inheritance that we've received.

01:20:00

That's why we have catechisms. That's why we have confessions. That's why we do family worship. That's why we integrate children into the worship setting in the corporate body, because we believe that God is going to do this over a long period of time.

01:20:15

So, just like you said, I don't think it's about what camp you're in. I think it's we have faith, and we trust in God to do this.

01:20:23

Yeah. I mean, and Dr. Wright goes on to make the point, he's like, even if that was a

01:20:28

Presbyterian nation, and they were all baptized into the covenant, there's still no guarantee that they're going to be regenerate.

01:20:37

Right. You still, as a Presbyterian, are trusting God that He's going to save your children. You're trusting Him that they're going to be regenerate.

01:20:44

You know, this is where it's like, we just have a slight difference with our Presbyterian brothers on this when it comes to the covenant, but we're still trusting in God that He's going to save our offspring.

01:20:54

And again, the only way it gets mucked up, like you said, is if the parents become lazy. Right? It's like,

01:21:01

I look back, like, Samuel and his sons, that's what I think about. How did that go awry? You know?

01:21:06

And it's like, Samuel was a man that God used tremendously for a lot of monumental work, but he was also unfaithful in a lot of ways.

01:21:18

Yeah. And his sons were known by the people to be men that they did not want to have over them in authority.

01:21:26

And so, we can't be perfect, but we can be faithful. Yeah. Yeah, and I think,

01:21:33

I look back, thinking, my own heritage as I'm thinking through this, and I, you know, I pray for my kids all the time that I passed on the same heritage that's been passed on to me, like, three, four, five generations deep that I know of.

01:21:45

And that's a blessing that you have that. Yeah. Some of us, like, maybe we have one generation. Yeah. Or maybe we're the first.

01:21:51

Right. Trying to do this. Right. Like, and really make our ceiling, our kids' floor.

01:21:58

Yeah. Like, that is a tall task. Yeah, and the point I was going to make is, and I agree with you completely, the point is like,

01:22:07

I have, me personally, I have all these faithful generations and I am where I'm in because of the faithfulness of the generations before me.

01:22:15

Because they didn't get lazy. They didn't just say, oh, we're Christians and then not continue raising up their children in the same faith, you know, and that's on my mom's side and my dad's side, which is kind of amazing.

01:22:28

My dad's side, there's like a gap. He had faithful, very faithful descendants, and then there was like a generation or two where there's that laziness, unfaithfulness, and praise

01:22:40

God, like, my dad was brought back in, you know, and so like, but again, it's because of faithfulness, and when it falls off, it's because of unfaithfulness.

01:22:50

That should just be what we're focusing on there. Yeah, and that's not a guarantee of anything. Like, we don't adopt a disposition of presumption.

01:22:59

Like, God is just going to do this because they're our kids. We trust Him in faith, and I believe we have every reason to expect with faithfulness that God will do it, though.

01:23:10

I don't think that's wrong -minded to say that. Exactly, exactly right. Okay, last point here.

01:23:16

This is kind of the end of the discussion, 48 minutes. Owen's gonna ask a question for the entire panel, and we'll just kind of work through here because this is an important conversation, and then we'll end on this.

01:23:29

We're not going too late, thankfully, so here we go. Putting your finger on is, in all seriousness, about where things are right now, and how bad things are, how rough they are, and on social media, the roughness that you're pointing out, the darkness that really is spreading, and that is not a small thing to any of us, causes some

01:23:54

CN folks to say, see, look at the picture of the drag queen story hour teaching little kids terrible things.

01:24:03

Do you want this, or do you want a Christian nation? And that's the way it's framed.

01:24:09

So hold on, hold on one sec. I gotta go to the whole panel. I would respond to that kind of framing by saying, of course ultimately

01:24:20

I want the righteousness of Christ to rule the nation, and indeed that is where things are headed, as we've already heard.

01:24:28

I want to shift the question, though, a little bit. This is probably this may be my last question or thereabouts, but let's do another down the panel for a bunch of Baptists.

01:24:38

We should know the answer to this at some level. What would you say are the dangers of religious formalism?

01:24:45

We're not Presbyterians. We love Presbyterian brothers, but they have a different category for covenant children, for example, than we do.

01:24:54

They just do. And that's why many CN guys have said this is basically Presbyterian theology applied to the public square.

01:25:01

Some would differ with that. Some would point out John Gill has these quotations or that. Other Baptists in the tradition.

01:25:07

What would you say are the dangers of a whole nation, a city, a people thinking they're

01:25:15

Christian because they live somewhere? So before I just want to frame the question there.

01:25:21

I mean, even the way he said it, would you rather have transgender or Christian? It's like...

01:25:27

The question is how do we get there, right? And again, if we're saying we get to the

01:25:33

Christian nation part by coercion, then no, that's wrong. If we say we get there through the gospel, then yes and amen.

01:25:41

And so I just want to say this before we get to work our way down through the panel here. I saw when

01:25:48

I was in Germany, and I call this Luther nationalism. I saw

01:25:57

Pastor James, Dr. White's talked about this a lot, but the fear hole at the

01:26:03

Wartburg castle. This is where the castle where Luther hid for a while, translated the

01:26:09

New Testament into German. And there's this tower there. It's called the fear hole, and this is where Fritz Erbe was put down into a hole for eight years because he refused to baptize his children.

01:26:26

And Luther wasn't there at the same time, but he knew he was there when he was there.

01:26:33

And Fritz Erbe was an Anabaptist, so we would have major disagreements on a lot of things, but we would be united on baptism.

01:26:43

And you know, when I said like, it would have taken me, I don't even know if I would have got down in that hole.

01:26:48

I would have been like, sprinkle them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not that committed.

01:26:55

Quite the damning sentence in a hole for that long. Yeah, and so like, he was there until he died basically, and it's like a three or four story hole and like, it would have been just awful, complete darkness, cold.

01:27:11

And but while we're there, I'm asking the German pastors, Peter and Tobias, if you see this, love you guys.

01:27:19

Like, for Luther, it was more political. And so the reason that they did this is because they were afraid of a political uprising of Baptists against Presbyterians.

01:27:37

Because at the time, the government, those in charge of the government would have been pedo.

01:27:44

Now they were you know, Lutheran, obviously, but like, they would have practiced pedo baptism.

01:27:50

And that was the flavor of the day. That's who was in charge. And so this was more political than it was theological.

01:27:59

And that, when I heard that, I was like, this is what we're talking about. If we get to the point where you know, the majority of those in charge of this nation are

01:28:13

Presbyterian or they're pedo Baptists, and they start enforcing pedo baptism, then that is wrong.

01:28:22

And that's what we're talking about. It shouldn't be that way. We should be, it should be about the gospel and honoring

01:28:27

Christ, but when you start enforcing particular views on theology and on the way we do the sacraments and stuff, that's not okay.

01:28:40

And so that's why I call it Lutheran nationalism, because that, to me, is when you take this idea of Christian nationalism to a point where it's unhealthy and you're, that is enforcing your theological views by coercion.

01:28:56

Yeah, and I think the founders were absolutely brilliant. Yeah, they were.

01:29:02

Because you have to assume that against the face of sacralism, which is what they are constantly decrying, and rightfully so, the first amendment exists and existed, was put to paper because, and for the specific reason, to not have a federally established church.

01:29:25

Although, you have this broad Christian consensus that can exist within that, right?

01:29:30

Nine of the Thirteen Colonies had churches, right? And, you know, during the original founding, and, you know, you had to be an

01:29:38

Orthodox member of these churches to hold office, even. So you can have that Christian orthodoxy that exists there, and a culture completely permeated by the gospel, which is,

01:29:53

I would argue, more advantageous than not. Okay?

01:29:58

We all know the problem with cultural Christianity. It does do damage. It is harmful and dangerous for a person to say,

01:30:07

I grew up in the Bible Belt, I went to church every day of my life, I'm good with Jesus.

01:30:14

And then they're living not good with Jesus, in complete defiance and disobedience to His Word.

01:30:21

We all know that people in that position deceive themselves, and that self -deception can wreak havoc.

01:30:28

It can wreak havoc in their relationships because then they're justifying their sin in the name of Christ.

01:30:34

So yes, we understand cultural Christianity, there can be negative effects of that.

01:30:42

But I would, 10 out of 10, rather live in a nation that has been the result of evangelization for hundreds and hundreds of years than not.

01:30:56

And that is not even close. It's not even close. So, I think that the founders were brilliant, because that's what the

01:31:06

First Amendment was actually talking about, was that there wouldn't be a federally recognized denomination.

01:31:14

Because they understood what they fled from and the results of that.

01:31:20

So, I think that they were really onto something, and they did it on purpose. And they knew. And there is a way to have these things coexist.

01:31:30

Alright, well we'll just work our way down through this panel here, and we'll end on this. We have that in the 1700s, the early 1700s, 1720s, 30s, and 40s churches in America, and throughout

01:31:43

Great Britain, were not only filled with nominal Christians, they were filled with unconverted pastors.

01:31:50

You have halfway covenants, and you have just, you're a Christian by just being American, or you're a

01:31:55

Christian because your great -grandfather was a Christian. And that wasn't too many years after the age of the

01:32:00

Puritans. And so here they've got this rich heritage, and they can trace Christianity back to many generations of rich Christianity, but now the church is filled with dead orthodoxy.

01:32:14

And the problem with the churches is not that they had bad theology, they just didn't have true Christians. And I think that's the greatest danger, is hearing the most dreadful words any person could ever hear, thinking on the day of judgment,

01:32:30

I'm right with God, and hearing those words, apart from me, I never knew you. And I think about that, our goal, because all of our theology does believe that there's an end to this age, there's an end to the world, and there's an end to earthly life.

01:32:46

And our goal is not just to have a restraining grace, even though we prefer it than rapid sin running around.

01:32:55

Our goal is not to get a better 50 years, and everybody go to hell.

01:33:00

Our goal is for the salvation of souls. So we have a really greater desire for all eternity.

01:33:08

And so we don't want to just get people halfway there, and to this external moralism, we want conversion.

01:33:16

Amen. There's not much to say that, other than, as you were saying, I was thinking of Ireland. You know, we have dear friends in Ireland, Northern Ireland, and in the

01:33:28

Republic, but they're very, very faithful brothers and sisters. There are some incredibly faithful Covenant or Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland.

01:33:36

But that's kind of what happened in Northern Ireland, is it became Presbyterian, like, almost like you say, almost like the

01:33:43

Bible Belt, just because that's what you grew up in. Other than those faithful churches, there's not much to it.

01:33:52

And in the Republic, that's why you have the North versus the South, it's

01:33:58

Presbyterians versus Catholics. And the same thing, it's just my mom and my grandparents and my great -grandparents were

01:34:06

Catholic, therefore I'm Catholic, and there's nothing to it. Anyways, it just reminded me of that as he was talking.

01:34:12

It's a perfect picture of that. But I'll keep going. Yeah, I would say, if you don't want your children to be impacted by Drag Queen Story Hour in the local school, then homeschool your children.

01:34:27

So that's number one. Amen, Josh Bice. Number two, I would say, you know, if you just look back at formalism, you look back at problems with that.

01:34:37

I mean, the founders of this nation, Puritans understood that.

01:34:42

They were fleeing from the pressures of the conflating of and the overlap of church and state.

01:34:51

They were refugees because of tyranny. The lesson would be that the original Westminster Confession of Faith, under the article on religious liberty and the conscience, had four paragraphs.

01:35:04

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith had three paragraphs. It would be in 1788 the

01:35:13

American Presbyterians would actually revise paragraph number three to take out this idea that the magistrate was not to engage in the service of the sacraments and the

01:35:28

Word, but was actually to engage in the punishment of blasphemy.

01:35:34

They understood what the problem was with that from where they had been living for so many years.

01:35:40

This idea of religious formalism and trying to quote -unquote baptize a nation has never worked out well.

01:35:50

What should we do? I think we should do exactly what we've been talking about. We should preach the gospel.

01:35:56

The sphere of the church swells in such a way that it does have a dramatic impact on the public square.

01:36:05

We do actually vote for politicians to go into office and we do charge them with ruling well.

01:36:14

There's so much more that could be said, but that's my short answer. I don't disagree with anything he just said.

01:36:21

That's basically what we're saying. By formalism, he's talking about what we just discussed as sacralism.

01:36:27

It's the same thing. In that specific context, just a conflation of church and state.

01:36:34

I agree wholeheartedly with everything he just said. Thank you, Brother Josh. There's a danger, as we've talked about in Presbyterianism, of formalism and Christian nominalism with the covenant child idea.

01:36:49

Just to quote a professor of mine from back in the day, it is the normal way of God to save the vast majority of children if not all of them.

01:36:59

There's an assumption that God is going to save the children of Christian parents. We have a problem in Baptist circles as well with our own formalism or Christian nominalism.

01:37:11

It is the never -ending altar call where we don't check very carefully if this person truly has saving faith.

01:37:20

We just quickly are getting people through baptized. That's our problem in the Baptist world.

01:37:25

I think we need to be aware of it. That gets into having a very robust doctrine of the church. I don't agree with anything there either.

01:37:34

Amen, Brother Mort. We'll just keep going. We're almost done here. I agree with everything that's been said so far.

01:37:41

Just to add to that, if you were to cultivate nothing more than dead orthodoxy, then you're going to end up right back where we are now.

01:37:52

Romans 1 and God's wrath of abandonment is a worship problem. It's a refusal to worship the creator.

01:37:59

If you refuse to worship him, inevitably you worship the creation. When you do that,

01:38:04

God turns everything on its head. He gives a nation exactly what it wants. A dead orthodoxy where society at any one point in time is properly structured under a

01:38:17

Christian moralism is unsustainable. You're going to end up exactly where we are now.

01:38:23

That generation will be having the same conversation we're having now unless the Lord has already returned. I wouldn't agree with the last part.

01:38:32

He could return, but he obviously has a different eschatology. I like how he worded that.

01:38:38

It goes back to what we were saying earlier about cultivating. He's saying if the church is cultivating a dead orthodoxy, which is exactly what we were saying.

01:38:46

It's just a different way of wording. I really like what he said there. Yeah, and if we find that we are in a nation that is obviously under God's judgment, the call is still the same.

01:38:59

That's faithfulness, no matter what. That doesn't negate our hope for the future that God's promises will come to pass, exactly how he says.

01:39:09

But there is a very real sense in which we are returning and have returned to a runaway pagan culture.

01:39:17

That's the kind of place that we live in. So while we maintain our belief in Christ's Great Commission being successful and all of those things, we do acknowledge that God is the one who raises up nations and brings them down also according to his wise providence.

01:39:36

And sometimes he calls us to live through very difficult periods of time and be faithful in them.

01:39:42

Amen. Alright, we'll just finish here with Scott. I'm not going to play Dr. White's response because we would agree with everything he's saying.

01:39:51

Not necessary. I agree completely with everything that's been said. What ends up happening and I think we see this in our own nation, especially in what you might call the

01:40:01

Bible Belt, is it actually makes our God -prescribed,

01:40:07

Christ -prescribed mission more difficult because you almost have to get people unsaved first before you can actually preach the gospel to them because they already think that they're

01:40:16

Christians because they live by the certain level of moral standards, etc.

01:40:23

And I think it gets to the heart of several times sphere sovereignty has been mentioned.

01:40:29

What is the role of the state? The state's role is not to enforce an external morality on all levels.

01:40:41

I think Jeff pointed this out too, even in 1 Peter. What is the good and evil that the state is meant to punish and reward?

01:40:50

Well, it is there is a jurisdiction there that has to do with maintaining peace and order, like I talked about in my session, for the common good of people within the common curse world.

01:41:05

Hold on, he's almost done. I will get it. Because I know I'm with you. The state has not been given the jurisdiction for enforcing the worship of God, forbidding blasphemy, etc.

01:41:20

You know, the Sabbath laws and these sorts of things. That's not the role of the state. That is the external morality we're against.

01:41:25

Because people might say, well, by outlawing murder, by outlawing theft, that's just external morality. Well, in a sense, yeah, that's true, but the state has been ordained by God to enforce those things because the government has been given to maintain peace and order in a sinful world.

01:41:44

So, yes, there is a certain amount of external morality that is enforced by the state, but it has a specific purpose, and it does not relate to the issues of worship and the issues of our relationship with God, which falls under the jurisdiction of the church in the preaching of the gospel and the accomplishment of the

01:42:01

Great Commission. Okay, there's a lot there. There is a lot there. I completely forgot about this part.

01:42:08

I'm trying to organize my thoughts. He's right about the maintenance of jurisdictions, that the state has been given the sword.

01:42:18

The church has been given the keys. There are spiritual callings and ramifications to the ministry of the church with word and sacrament.

01:42:30

There are physical real -world implications to the ministry of the sword that God has given to his servant of justice.

01:42:39

So, we acknowledge sphere sovereignty, what he was talking about, and yes, the government's role is not to dictate the worship of the church.

01:42:52

The church and its officers have been given to that in their government.

01:42:57

That's their area. So, yes, we acknowledge that. What I do not understand, once again,

01:43:04

I would call this another artificial dichotomy between Commandments 5 and 10 and 1 through 4.

01:43:12

And what I mean by that is if we're going to say that the magistrate has a duty to uphold the common good, okay?

01:43:21

I think this is kind of key language according to his system because he does see such a thing as a common kingdom, which has been used by Reformed Two Kingdoms to distinguish between the spiritual order and the temporal order.

01:43:35

There's a spiritual redemptive kingdom over here, and then there's a common kingdom where all of us participate in work and government, and all those things go in this story, where you have the spiritual story being higher, right?

01:43:45

I don't know his exact articulation of it, or how he would identify within that perspective.

01:43:52

But, once again, if we're going to say that the state is not commanded by God as a servant of the one true

01:44:04

God, according to Romans 13, to in any way advocate and promote the exercise of true religion in the public square, like they're just supposed to be completely hands -off and neutral,

01:44:19

I don't understand making the distinction between the spheres, how you then make that jump to the state's role to just say, doesn't matter, we're just gonna you can do whatever you want to do in terms of religious public expression, and we're gonna protect your right to do that, even if it's demonic, even if it's abhorrent in the sight of God, we have no responsibility to promote true worship in the public square.

01:44:47

You wanted to talk about this in the after show too. Because it really matters with what's going on, we're getting a concrete example of it in the world right now in the state of Iowa.

01:44:58

So, I just, I don't understand the jump, if that makes sense. Because I think, again, there's this division now, and I know he would go to Romans 13 to try to defend this, because it talks about love for neighbor, the commandments right there, and Paul lists them.

01:45:13

But to separate the commandments and divide them, and say the state has no role with this whatsoever, that's not their job,

01:45:22

I don't see that jump. Yeah, I agree, and we'll just end on this point here.

01:45:29

Like, I don't need to reiterate everything you said, but we agree, like, according to Romans 13, the job of the state is

01:45:37

God's deacon to protect the innocent and punish the evildoer, but to say that the state shouldn't be enforcing an external morality.

01:45:49

Yeah, they already are. They already are, and that's what we keep saying, it's not a question of are they going to force an external morality, it's a question of whose morality are they going to enforce.

01:46:01

And that's all that we're saying, is it should be God's subjective source of morality.

01:46:07

That's what the state should be enforcing, because God created them, they have their authority because of God.

01:46:17

Romans 13 is very clear about that. They're his servant, not the servant of another false god. Exactly right. That's really what this comes down to.

01:46:25

If God says, you're my servant, well guess who they have to obey? Bingo.

01:46:32

So, good show dude. I'm glad we got to finish that. Perfect, we're ending the year on that.

01:46:41

All you that are All Access, thank you once again. You're the best, you make this happen. We will pop over maybe 10 or 15 minutes for the after show, so if you're

01:46:53

All Access, you can pop over to apologiastudios .com and jump in there. We got a couple things we want to talk about to extend this conversation, but thank you everyone.

01:47:00

Merry, merry, merry Christmas. We mean that, we love Christmas around here. It is the end of the year for us, so we will be back in January in 2024.

01:47:11

As a reminder, we have a lot of big things coming up within abortion now, this next year, and we need your help, we need your support.

01:47:22

We need everyone partnering with us on this to help us end the slaughter of our pre -born neighbors. Do you want to add anything on that note?

01:47:31

We need your help. We need your help and your support, so thank you for all that you do to come alongside with us in that ministry.

01:47:41

There's a lot of work to be done. Amen. Well, everyone,

01:47:47

Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Go on home. You filthy animals. Sorry, I messed it up.

01:47:54

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Go on home. I messed it up again.

01:48:01

Twice in a row. Happy New Year in jail. Go on home, they're waiting for you. That's what I was trying to say.

01:48:07

I always end on that and I completely biffed it. Twice. We love you all.