October 12, 2015 Show with Peter Hubbard on “Love Into Light: The Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church”

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Our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Columbus Day on this 12th day of October 2015 and I'm honored to have for the very first time on our program Peter Hubbard and he's going to be discussing a very important and a very controversial topic that is contained within his book, Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual and the Church.

I urge you that if you have family, friends and loved ones or loved ones who are involved in homosexual activity, we ask of you to right away during this program call them, email them, text them, tell them to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron today if you have a burden for their souls, if you desire for them to come to Christ and of course if you are a Christian and you're listening that is obvious, that is obvious, that is your goal for them and of course not everybody who listens to our program is a Christian, so we just urge you to feel free to email us a question about today's topic, whether you are a Christian or not, whether you are involved in homosexual activity or not and we also ask of you to call your friends and family and loved ones and your pastors and have them tune in because they may learn a great deal about this discussion and this topic by hearing our guest today and as I said our guest today is Peter Hubbard and he is a follower of Jesus who serves as teaching pastor at North Hills Community Church in Taylors, South Carolina.

Peter appreciates the never-ending opportunities to engage with hurting people and to apply the hope of the gospel to the messy places of our lives. He has earned two master's degrees and is currently completing a doctor of ministry degree in pastoral counseling at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and we just had not long ago Peter Lilback, the president of that seminary on this program to discuss the life and faith of George Washington.

Peter Hubbard and his wife Karen have been married for 25 years and they have four children and we are going to be discussing his book, Love into Light, The Gospel, the Homosexual and the Church and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time ever, Peter Hubbard.

Yeah, it's good to have you on the broadcast. Before we even go into a little description of your church, tell us something about yourself and how you came to know Jesus Christ as your.

Lord, God and Savior. Many decades ago. Amen. Well, tell us something about the church where you pastor in North Hills Community Church. I'll just announce your church website just.

So I do it now before I forget to later. I don't have the greatest brain at 53 years of age. I think I'm getting more forgetful than I should at this age, but it's nhcconline .com. NH for North Hills, CC for Community Church, online .com.

And also, on top of that, we have a special website for your book and the book is titled Into the Light, The Gospel, the Homosexual and the Church and the website, I just had it a second ago, here it is, it's loveintolight .com.

Loveintolight .com is a special website specifically for the book by Peter Hubbard. What compelled you to write this book, Love Into Light? There are other books available about the issue of homosexuality coming from an evangelical or Bible-believing Christian perspective.

And even before I have you answer that question, I just want to read a couple of commendations. One is from a friend of mine, which actually originally got my attention more than anything because I trust Dr. Fred Zaspel's opinion on things.

And when I saw his endorsement, I knew that I had to get Peter Hubbard on the program. But Dr. Fred Zaspel, who I've interviewed on this program as well, said, powerfully insightful book. I am not aware of a more valuable first resource to help shape our thinking on this very contemporary issue.

And that, to me, is extremely powerful, coming from Fred Zaspel. Also, Dr. Ed Welch, for those of you who may be familiar with CCEF, which is the Christian Counseling Educational Foundation, we have had a number of the counselors and authors from that organization on this broadcast in the past.

Dr. Ed Welch says, this comes just at the right time. Those who live under scripture are increasingly eager to put on humility, speak with and learn from those who experience same-sex attractions, and consider what all this means for life in Christ's kingdom.

It's Dr. Ed Welch, a counselor and faculty member at CCEF, which is the Christian Counseling Educational Foundation. So what was the thing that compelled you to write this, knowing that there were other books available already on this topic?

One, in my church, I love hearing Pat talking about this.

Now, as we were discussing the book before the program, you have, nonetheless, gotten some heat from both those on the left and the right side of this issue regarding this book. Can you tell us why some on the left, I mean, other than the obvious, there are homosexuals who are very proud of that behavior and don't see it as being deficient or sinful or wrong or abnormal or unnatural.

You can understand why they would attack any criticism of their activity or what they would even view as a lifestyle or what have you. But tell us something first before we address the attacks that you receive on the right.

Tell us something about.

The attacks on the left regarding this book. Like you said, any time you question fighting, some of them were actually... Oh yeah, I have a hard time believing.

Any of those people in that group are even genuinely regenerate, because if you can delight in the death of the wicked, let alone people who are honorable citizens of our country like the military and so on, but even those who are involved in wicked activity, they seem to have much joy in telling others that these people will be in hell.

And of course, they speak of that with certainty while people are still alive. They don't even believe, from my understanding, that homosexuals can ever come to repentance and faith. They believe that they are reprobate by the mere fact that they're involved in that activity now.

So even if they're living, they would condemn these people or assign them to hell without even knowing what their.

Future holds. Exactly. And that position, and even not as Miller, represents the...

And let me give our email address here. It's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. If you have a question that you would like to ask Peter Hubbard, whether you agree with what he's saying, whether you disagree with him, whether you are indeed someone involved in homosexual behavior or not, whether you believe he is too soft on the issue, whether you think he's spot on, whether you think that...

Whether you are not sure at all. Perhaps you just have a big question mark over your head on this issue. I have met a lot of people that are very baffled as to how to respond to the issue of homosexuality.

Well, send us a question at chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. And you may remain anonymous if it's a personal or private matter, but we ask of you, if at all possible, to please include at least your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside if you live outside the USA.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail dot com. Well, what do you think that people have got it confused when it comes to the issue of homosexuality? What are people misunderstanding about this?

Let's first of all start with those who are outside of conservative Christianity, Evangelicalism, those on the left side of the other than their promotion of or advocacy of or participation in homosexuality, what have they.

Got wrong on this issue? I think the biggest thing is to find someone. And this notion that those on.

The left have, whether they are just heterosexuals who support those involved in this activity, or whether they are people themselves who are immersed in this activity and feel no reason to repent, is it a false notion that this is a situation that is beyond repair?

And of course, those who are in favor of it believe that it doesn't need to be repaired. But there is a constant drumbeat from the left, whether it is from heterosexual TV and radio hosts who are on the left side of things, or whether it is from homosexual rights activists.

They will say that they cannot change, that it is impossible to change, even though you hear about people changing all the time. Like, you know, even Ellen DeGeneres' ex-girlfriend and so on, who went on to a heterosexual lifestyle, got married and has children.

But what do you make of that?

Yeah, it's a great example.

Yes, and why is it that nobody seems to have a problem with heterosexuals who later in their lives become homosexuals? Why is it that heterosexuals can change and homosexuals can't? I mean, you hear about it happening all the time in prison, where somebody who is arrested as a heterosexual, who has lived as a heterosexual their entire lives and never had an inclination to behave otherwise, and they get locked up for a certain period of time, and they get involved in homosexual activity.

And of course, a lot of it depends on how long they are in prison. And of course, I'm talking about voluntarily being involved in it, not those who are raped in prison. But so obviously, people change, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, very often.

And obviously, one would be a change for the worse, a horrible change, and one would be the change for the better. But there is no reason logically why somebody would believe a homosexual cannot change, is there?

Now, do you believe that as a Christian, as an evangelical, that Romans 1 is teaching us.

That all men really know that this is wrong, but they suppress that truth? Now, before we move on to the errors of those of us who are conservative, Bible-believing Christians, evangelicals, do you have anything else that you can think of?

Those on the left have got it wrong when it comes to homosexuality.

Yeah, well, I think it took me a long while to realize one of the reasons that...

We're going to a station break right now. If you have a question, whether you agree with our guest, whether you vehemently disagree with him, or you're just not sure, you can email us at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, Chris Arnsen, that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Peter Hubbard, and we are discussing his book, Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church. And by the way, if you ever want to purchase this book, our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service has this book in stock.

In fact, they are the ones who initially recommended Peter Hubbard to me as an excellent guest suggestion. And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service is located on the internet at CVBBS .com. CV for Cumberland Valley, BB for Bible Book, S for service .com.

CVBBS .com. And we want to thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for being a co-sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and we thank them for the suggestion for Peter Hubbard being on the program today.

The Left's Claim That Homosexuality Cannot Change

Let's move into what you believe conservative evangelical Christians, and perhaps even conservatives in general, may have gotten it wrong when it comes to the issue of homosexuality.

Well, there is, we'll say, hey, I was in the church, often responds with the same oversimplification, and that leads to that. You didn't look hoist. And so usually the Bible describes, we are following the course deceived by the enemy.

We are really important for Christians to, if we begin to see things that way, it doesn't, in the context, and I'm sorry, my mute button was on my microphone.

There, in regard to whether or not somebody is born a homosexual, or with a proclivity towards that, or with a natural sexual attraction to the same sex. And when I say natural, I mean in their view of if you're born that way, that is natural to you.

Those of us who are conservative Bible-believing Christians, and especially those of us who are Calvinists, such as myself, I assume that you probably are, although I never asked you that question. I know that you're getting your doctorate at Westminster, and a couple of the men who have written endorsements for your book are Calvinists.

But in the belief system known as Calvinism, total depravity is a key doctrine that goes hand-in-hand with original sin, original sin being that we are all born in sin because we all have inherited the sin of Adam, and total depravity basically a more descriptive term describing the extent of how that sin has affected us, and it has affected every area of our lives, and even those that are not born again, they are not as bad as they could be because God in his mercy has restrained even their evil.

Otherwise it would not be a safe world for any of us to venture outdoors, and we probably wouldn't even be safe inside of our own homes if God did not restrain evil of all men, including the unsaved. So having said that, do you think that it is entirely wrong for Bible-believing Christians to write off the notion that some people may be born with that proclivity if we are born in sin?

And I'm not saying this as an excuse for the activity, I'm just saying that if we are born in sin, and according to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, we are totally depraved before our regeneration, would that be illogical to think that some people might be born with a proclivity.

Like that? Oh yeah, definitely. I have very from the other boy the way the Bible describes it.

And just as there have been studies that people, men, with an overload of testosterone tend to be more violent, and some of the worse cases of murderers that have been studied, there was very often an abnormal amount of testosterone in that individual.

That would not give the person or society the green light to set their approval on that person or people for their activity just because they may have been born with some kind of biological factor. And of course there's no proof at all in regard to homosexuality that there's a biological cause of it, but I'm just saying that even when they have traced certain things to biological causes, at least in theory, that still doesn't give us as a society the right to say this is an acceptable behavior because all of our lives are in jeopardy if we were to view murderers that way, for instance.

Right? Definitely. Yeah, and to address my physical wiring when I was younger, a woman, my wife, having nothing in the apartment to eat when we had newly been married, and physical preparedness, screaming at my wife, and of course no one would agree with that, because the genetic component to my anger because I'm that way and I passed out when I didn't eat, mother was that way, you know, there's clearly this genetic wiring toward high metabolism, low blood sugar, doesn't justify the activity.

That's a rough parallel because I'm not saying that that's the same as homosexuality, but it's... What would be some other ways that you believe.

That evangelical Christians and conservatives in general get things wrong when it comes to.

Homosexuality? For years I was talking about homosexuality. I found a pastor who had done a series on it. At first I thought it was fear, but then the more I did research and I did surveys around the country and found out pastors preach on...

They're used to controversy. Seeing that Bible too light, it's communicating both the love and the... Compromising either one of those. Can we address this in a way that doesn't put homosexuality on a special shelf, minimize...

We have a listener in South Carolina, Tony, who says, troubling that your guest had no idea of what to say to homosexuals in counseling when the scripture has much to say on the issue. The first thing we learn from scripture is that we do not ask the homosexual questions in order to decide how to address the issue.

This produces an emotional response from us rather than a biblical one. No man is to dictate the message in these sessions. The scripture must dictate the message. Going straight to the scripture is what Jesus and all of his apostles did.

And yes, they are going to be offended. Praise God for that. Who has put homosexuality in a different or worse category? Would he tread so lightly when counseling an adulterer who had walked out on his family to take up with his mistress?

I think not. This approach sounds very much like seeker-sensitive, therapeutic Christianity whereby we dare not offend, but it is that very offense that brings a person to his knees before a holy God.

Why would you deny someone the blessing of being out, down, and trampled under foot when that is what leads to repentance? And I apologize that I don't have glasses right now to be viewing these questions in a better way, but I definitely know I need to get a new prescription.

The listener in South Carolina did, I think, come too quickly to some conclusions about your approach here because we've barely been on for 35 minutes.

Or so. I'm really glad he pointed that out. I think it may be a woman. It's Tony with an eye. Okay, Tony, it helps me clarify that when I say, of course, somebody comes into your office for you to just did not treat people that way.

For example, take, he's so care, you're not little flock for it is your father's good. He went on to explain. Well, you can elaborate if.

You'd like to. It makes sense to me. And of course, I don't even think that because I know a lot of pastors and I know that they have faced counseling sessions when heterosexual adultery is in focus. And those are not always simple and easy counseling sessions to just read the texts that condemn adultery and fornication and the book is closed and goodbye.

Because sometimes, I'm not saying all the time, but you have certain circumstances where one spouse is denying the other marital rights in the bed. And you have all kinds of things that may be going on that never justify sin.

I'm not trying to say that, but they complicate the issue is what I mean. Yeah, definitely. Where you have sin on both sides and that kind of thing.

And that's why the Bible says, if they answer a matter before they've heard it. And so it does not begin, if we assume. And by the way, Tony, if you want to discover more about.

What our guest has to say on this issue, Peter Hubbard, I do have a surprise for our listeners. Those of you who write in before the program is over and you have a question that is good enough to be read on the air, you can't just write, can I have a free book?

That doesn't qualify as a question. If you have a question that's pertinent to the subject and it's good enough to be read on air, you will receive a free copy of Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church by Peter Hubbard.

And that is compliments of Ambassadors International, who provided us with free copies for a number of you. We don't have an unlimited supply to give away, but for a number of you before the broadcast is over, if you send us an email soon enough with a question, you will receive a free copy if you want one.

And Tony, we don't have your mailing address, so if you would like a free copy of this book, email me back with your address. And of course, we will not announce that on the air or anything like that.

This is just so we can ship you out the book. And once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Well, you seem to think that there was quite a long list of things that Bible-believing Christians get wrong when they address the sin.

What would be something else? One thing that I can say that, and I'd love to hear your reaction to it, I disagree with some of the labeling that you give to the issue. For instance, I try to make it a point not to use the word gay.

I dislike using that label because it seems that those who use the term gay are capitulating to a group of people involved in a very wicked and damning practice, and those who support them, we're capitulating to them and their label of choice, which is really a word stolen from our vocabulary by them.

Gay, of course, as most people know, at least if they're at least 30 years old or so, they know that gay means originally happy. I don't like using that term for them, and perhaps you could react to that because you have used it.

Am I being overly harsh? What is your view of my explanation there? I totally understand why you... Right. I even know some extremely conservative Christians who don't think we should use the term homosexual because they would think it's too clinical-sounding or something.

Yeah.

But we have to go to another station break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air, we would love to hear from you. We do have some more books to give away, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you could, unless you're remaining private and personal in your question, you know, you can remain anonymous in those cases, but if you can, at least give us your first name and your city and state or country of residence if this is just a general question on the issue, a biblical question or historical or technical question.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Peter Hubbard and a discussion of his book, Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arms, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Peter Hubbard, and we are talking about his book, Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church, and we do have a listener in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Christian, who says, I understand that it may be wrong on one end of the spectrum to focus on homosexuality or highlight it as a sin worse than all other sins, but it seems that there is an error equally as serious on the other end of the spectrum that would put it on the same level of wickedness as eating too much at a company picnic or other sins that others would regard as trivial or that at the very least would not warrant church discipline necessarily.

We would never, for instance, expel a pastor from his office for certain sins, and yet homosexuality should certainly be one of them. Now I think that's.

A very good question and comment. What do you have to say about that? So I think that's between that and... Right. Well, that would be a very good time to bring up something that we did not highlight.

During our discussion on what those on the left get wrong about homosexuality, is they say Jesus was completely silent on the issue of homosexuality just because the word doesn't appear.

In the red letter editions of their bible, and if you could respond to that. And by the way,.

Christian, I forgot to mention, you're getting a free copy of the book, Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church, Compliments of Ambassador International, the publishers of this book, written by Peter Hubbard, our guest.

And one of the things that seems that the conservative evangelical world has done is they have, they seem, when I say conservative, I'm saying that they are known for other conservative views regarding the bible and the Christian faith and so on, but they seem to capitulate to the world's concept of homosexuals as being in a unique category, and they tend to treat it with kid gloves.

They tend to treat it just as the homosexual community demands to be viewed as just another community, like Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, and you have men, women, and homosexuals, or lesbians, or bi, transgender, the whole list that they have.

Sometimes it seems to me that even the evangelicals are starting to buy into a notion of viewing them as a special community of people, and I was wondering how you would respond to that.

I agree with that. Someone who's involved in this lifestyle is of a different, you know, those, I get the fact, someone like that, see the grace of God intersect with them and change their hearts and lives, and I learned from them, and I think where some of you, how did he know if they didn't talk about it?

We do have a listener in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Brian,.

Who says, I would agree that we are all sexually broken, but all sexual brokenness is not the same example. God allowed polygamy in the Old Testament. God even used it to bring about the 12 tribes of Israel.

God nowhere allowed homosexuality. God even destroyed cities for their homosexuality. As I understand things, there is such a thing as a greater sin. John 19 11, Jesus answered him, you would have no authority over me at all unless I had been given, unless it had been given you from above, therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.

So if you want to.

Comment to Brian and Ontario Canada's comment there. Yeah, that's a cry out to the Lord together, as another man in our church is now going to walk through applying the gospel and helping him today, helping him where the action is, seeing the gospel transform lives.

What I'm afraid of is there are many pastors, many Christian them out to someone else, not how the world labels them to see that miracle. And we, and I long for equipped with so that it was come out of that lifestyle and walk in freedom and not tag them with the same label.

The world does not fear them, but love them in their new walk. Now it is very often.

Spoken of that as you have even mentioned during the interview, people who are burdened with or battling same sex attraction. Now, one thing that does concern me is that too many Christians may say that basically we're supposed to, or these individuals themselves are supposed to wave the white flag and somehow say, this is my identity.

I know that I cannot pursue that kind of behavior. So I'll just be a chaste homosexual or something to that effect. Whereas they are denying, it seems the transforming power of the Holy spirit to totally remove that kind of attraction from them.

It seems that in some cases, this is being viewed in a unique way in a, in a perhaps a superior way than some other types of sexual perversions that we would never think. For instance, a born again believer is for the rest of his life going to be troubled with bestiality urges and so on.

If you could comment on that, if it might being.

To know that that's a good question. And I think I don't know what I'm automatically or immediately, but over time, I love what you were following Jesus, then he will lead people to holiness. And that might for outlines in first Corinthians seven, that might include singleness or that might include marriage, but we have to be careful marriage.

Well, right. Because I mean,.

The Bible is, sir, is very clear that some are born eunuchs. You can't say that science has proven people are born homosexual aren't born. I'm sorry, I got to rephrase that. You cannot say science has proven that people are born homosexuals, but you can say with certainty, the Bible says that some are born eunuchs, right?

So obviously, you can't force marriage upon somebody that would what was born a eunuch, because that would provide for a really horrible marriage, very unhappy marriage. I'm going to usually don't do this with two questions from the same listener.

But I want to just see if you could take one more shot at satisfying our listener Tony with an eye in South Carolina, with her view of what is being said here. And then we'll move on. And we'll have we'll have to give Tony another shot at a question some other show, but she says, and here's where she's correcting me.

I'm not jumping the gun or assuming. She says, I've done extensive research on the dangerous movements inside the church. And I've heard all of this before over and over again. And I am very troubled by this therapeutic approach to sin.

We do not have to know the person personally to stroke their emotions in order to lovingly present God's truth. We all have the exact same problem sin. It has a way of uniting us immediately. It is very interesting that my advice to stick 100 to the scripture when counseling was interpreted by Mr. Hubbard as pointing the finger in one's face.