October 12, 2015 Show with Peter Hubbard on “Love Into Light: The Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church”

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00:58: Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,
01:07: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming.
01:16: This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Columbus Day on this 12th day of October 2015, and I'm honored to have for the very first time on our program
01:28: Peter Hubbard, and he's going to be discussing a very important and a very controversial topic that is contained within his book,
01:38: Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual and the Church. I urge you that if you have family, friends, and loved ones, or loved ones who are involved in homosexual activity, we ask of you to right away during this program call them, email them, text them, tell them to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron today if you have a burden for their souls, if you desire for them to come to Christ, and of course if you are a
02:09: Christian and you're listening, that is obvious, that is obvious that is your goal for them, and of course not everybody who listens to our program is a
02:20: Christian, so we just urge you to feel free to email us a question about today's topic, whether you are a
02:28: Christian or not, whether you are involved in homosexual activity or not, and we also ask of you to call your friends and family and loved ones and your pastors and have them tune in because they may learn a great deal about this discussion and this topic by hearing our guest today, and as I said, our guest today is
02:50: Peter Hubbard, and he is a follower of Jesus who serves as teaching pastor at North Hills Community Church in Taylors, South Carolina.
03:01: Peter appreciates the never -ending opportunities to engage with hurting people and to apply the hope of the gospel to the messy places of our lives.
03:10: He has earned two master's degrees and is currently completing a doctor of ministry degree in pastoral counseling at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and we just had not long ago
03:24: Peter Lilbeck, the president of that seminary, on this program to discuss the life and faith of George Washington.
03:34: Peter Hubbard and his wife Karen have been married for 25 years and they have four children, and we are going to be discussing his book,
03:43: Love Into Light, The Gospel of the Homosexual in the Church, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time ever,
03:51: Peter Hubbard. Chris, thanks for having me. It's good to be with you. Yeah, it's good to have you on the broadcast.
03:59: Before we even go into a little description of your church, tell us something about yourself and how you came to know
04:08: Jesus Christ as your Lord, God, and Savior. I didn't grow up in a
04:14: Christian home. I grew up in north of Boston, Massachusetts, a really liberal community, liberal church, so if we did go to church, it was more of a social thing.
04:29: We didn't believe the Bible was the Word of God. We actually had Bible studies to decide if any parts of the
04:35: Bible might be true, and so I grew up in that context, never hearing the gospel, and then the short story is
04:45: God led me to a horse ranch in Canada, and there I heard the gospel for the first time.
04:52: I trusted Christ, came back later,
04:57: I think about a year later, my mom got saved. Two years later, my dad and other siblings, so I'm just still blown away at the grace of God reaching out to a selfish, rebellious, ignorant, proud, hated church teenager, and he snatched me up and opened my eyes and changed my life, and that was many decades ago, but still amazed at his grace.
05:31: Amen. Well, tell us something about the church where you pastor, the North Hills Community Church. Yeah, this,
05:39: I was actually running a little business here in Greenville, South Carolina, about almost 24 years ago, and a group of believers were meeting, not a formal church at all, and they asked me to speak, and so we quickly realized that God was up to something, and we were just working through books of the
06:05: Bible, and eventually formed as a church, and that, like I said, was about 24 years ago, and the
06:15: Lord just had his hand on us, and amazingly, we never imploded or exploded, and have just had a real joy to see
06:26: God grow a work here, and we now have many pastors and ministries, and just thank
06:35: God for what he's done. I'll just announce your church website, just so I do it now before I forget to later.
06:43: I don't have the greatest brain at 53 years of age. I think I'm getting more forgetful than I should at this age, but it's nhcconline .com,
06:55: N -H for North Hills, C -C for Community Church, online .com, and also, on top of that, we have a special website for your book, and the book is titled,
07:09: Into the Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church, and the website,
07:16: I just had it a second ago. Here it is. It's loveintolight .com. Loveintolight .com
07:23: is a special website specifically for the book by Peter Hubbard.
07:30: What compelled you to write this book, Love Into Light? There are other books available about the issue of homosexuality coming from an evangelical or Bible -believing
07:43: Christian perspective, and even before I do have you answer that question,
07:48: I just want to read a couple of commendations. One is from a friend of mine, which actually originally got my attention more than anything because I trust
07:59: Dr. Fred Zaspel's opinion on things, and when I saw his endorsement, I knew that I had to get
08:05: Peter Hubbard on the program, but Dr. Fred Zaspel, who I've interviewed on this program as well, said,
08:11: Powerfully insightful book. I am not aware of a more valuable first resource to help shape our thinking on this very contemporary issue, and that, to me, is extremely powerful coming from Fred Zaspel.
08:25: Also, Dr. Ed Welch, for those of you who may be familiar with CCEF, which is the
08:31: Christian Counseling Educational Foundation, we have had a number of the counselors and authors from that organization on this broadcast in the past.
08:42: Dr. Ed Welch says, This comes as just the right time. This comes just at the right time.
08:50: Those who live under scripture are increasingly eager to put on humility, speak with and learn from those who experience same -sex attractions, and consider what all this means for life in Christ's kingdom.
09:02: It's Dr. Ed Welch, counselor and faculty member at CCEF, which is the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation.
09:11: So what was the thing that compelled you to write this, knowing that there were other books available already on this topic?
09:18: I think two big things. One was the people that I met with in my church who struggled with same -sex attraction, and when
09:31: I began to meet with some of them, we have a pretty extensive counseling ministry,
09:37: I really didn't know a lot of what to say, and as I asked them questions and learned more and more of their struggles, it didn't seem like a sin out there.
09:49: It seemed like all of our struggles different, yet there were similarities.
09:55: So it was people in my church I longed to help as a pastor.
10:01: But then the second big thing that motivated it was just not hearing pastors addressing this issue.
10:10: This was, you know, a number of years ago, and I think it's gotten a little better now, but there was a huge vacuum in pastoral voices.
10:22: There were some books written by people who had come out of the gay lifestyle, but very few pastors were preaching on this or talking about this or writing about this other than to say it's a sin and other than to call people to repentance, but not a lot of thoughtful biblical exegesis, careful, helpful writing and teaching.
10:50: And so that led me to research and write, and we did a series in our church years and years ago, and I was shocked that people responded very positively to it.
11:05: Now, as we were discussing the book before the program, you have nonetheless gotten some heat from both those on the left and the right side of this issue regarding this book.
11:21: Can you tell us why some on the left, I mean, other than the obvious, there are homosexuals who are very proud of that behavior and don't see it as being deficient or sinful or wrong or abnormal or unnatural?
11:37: You can understand why they would attack any criticism of their activity or what they would even view as a lifestyle or what have you, but tell us something first before we go from the address the attacks that you receive on the right.
11:54: Tell us something about the attacks on the left regarding this book. I think, like you said, anytime you question the legitimacy of an activity, especially one as personal as this and as culturally acceptable and celebrated as this, you're going to be a target of attack.
12:17: And that, I knew before we even taught on this or wrote on this or spoke about this, because for several decades there has been a concerted effort to legitimize homosexuality and to remove it from any view as an illness or as sin or as wrong and to create an identity.
12:42: And so when we push back against that, we're inviting attacks.
12:48: So, of course, there have been some nasty things said and written about me and our church, but in general, what
12:57: I've found is even when we did a series here years ago and we had many people visiting, we have three services, each with about 600 or 700 on a
13:09: Sunday. So you've got a lot of people flowing in that wouldn't necessarily agree with us.
13:15: The tone with which we address the topic, even though they knew that we held a different position, did not elicit as strong a reaction as I anticipated.
13:30: Some of them were actually even surprised at the fact that even though they disagreed with us, we weren't taking a
13:40: God hates fags position, which I believe is unbiblical.
13:46: Oh, yeah, I have a hard time believing any of those people in that group are even genuinely regenerate.
13:54: Because if you can delight in the death of the wicked, let alone people who are honorable citizens of our country, like the military and so on, but even those who are involved in wicked activity, they seem to have much joy in telling others that these people will be in hell.
14:19: And of course, they speak of that with certainty while people are still alive.
14:25: They don't even believe, from my understanding, that homosexuals can ever come to repentance and faith.
14:34: They believe that they are reprobate by the mere fact that they're involved in that activity now.
14:41: So even if they're living, they would condemn these people or assign them to hell without even knowing what their future holds.
14:51: Exactly. And that position, and even not as militant, but others who hold a similar version of that position represents the pushback we receive from the right.
15:04: There were people, like I'm thinking of one pastor in particular, who read the book and just said, like, there's way too much grace here.
15:15: If homosexuality is a sin that's described as both unnatural and an abomination and reprobate, as you say, then how can you offer grace to someone whom
15:29: God has given over to their sin? And that kind of took me off guard because I hadn't even anticipated that supposedly
15:41: Bible -believing Christians would hold that position based on Romans 1. So that's been a position that I've tried to...
15:48: I didn't go into as much in the book because, again, I didn't anticipate it being that strong, but when
15:54: I speak about this around the country, I try to go back to Romans 1 and address what is
16:01: Romans 1 really saying when it talks about the fact that a homosexual is given over to his or her sin, and clarify that biblically, because I think that leads to a lot of misunderstanding among Christians.
16:16: And let me give our email address here. It's chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
16:22: If you have a question that you would like to ask Peter Hubbard, whether you agree with what he's saying, whether you disagree with him, whether you are indeed someone involved in homosexual behavior or not, whether you believe he is too soft on the issue, whether you think he's spot on, whether you think that you're...
16:46: whether you are not sure at all, perhaps you're just... have a big question mark over your head on this issue.
16:53: I have met a lot of people that are very baffled as to how to respond to the issue of homosexuality.
17:01: Well, send us a question at chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and you may remain anonymous if it's a personal or private matter, but we ask of you, if at all possible, to please include at least your first name, the city and state where you reside, and the country where you reside if you live outside the
17:22: USA. That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail dot com.
17:31: Well, what do you think that people have got it confused when it comes to the issue of homosexuality?
17:43: What are people misunderstanding about this? Let's first of all start with those who are outside of conservative
17:51: Christianity, evangelicalism, those on the left side of the issue. Other than their promotion of, or advocacy of, or participation in homosexuality, what have they got wrong on this issue?
18:07: I think the biggest thing is, when you define someone by their sexual activity, you are grossly misrepresenting who they are.
18:21: And that's why understanding the big picture of who we are in relation to God as those created by God, as those who are part of the brokenness and the fall of the world, and in light of the redemption and ultimate restoration of Jesus.
18:37: When you see people as image bearers in that grand redemptive story, it puts us in proper perspective.
18:48: If you buy the whole sexual identity propaganda that you are, because you feel certain attractions, therefore, as the
19:02: American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation as this enduring pattern of these attractions that create an identity, and all the related behaviors and the membership in the community of those who experience these same things, suddenly you've taken a piece of who someone is, specifically their attractions and actions, and then you've labeled them with that.
19:29: Which I think is, A, very simplistic, and B, misrepresents who we are as image bearers of our creator.
19:42: So we've started down the wrong direction, because once you define us that way, then all our activity, all our attractions, all our friends, everything flows out of that.
19:56: And that's something new. That is not historically the way people have been understood.
20:04: And this notion that those on the left have, whether they are just heterosexuals who support those involved in this activity, or whether they are people themselves who are immersed in this activity and feel no reason to repent, is it a false notion that this is a situation that is beyond repair?
20:31: And of course, those who are in favor of it believe that it doesn't need to be repaired. But there is a constant drumbeat from the left, whether it is from heterosexual
20:45: TV and radio hosts who are on the left side of things, or whether it's from homosexual rights activists.
20:53: They will say that they cannot change, that it is impossible to change, even though you hear about people changing all the time.
21:02: Like, you know, even Ellen DeGeneres' ex -girlfriend and so on, who went on to a heterosexual lifestyle, got married and has children.
21:10: But what do you make of that? Yeah, it's a great example. Again, it's just way too simplistic to say that we're born that way, or the
21:26: Church often responds with a similar simplicity, where you chose to be that way. God has fearfully and wonderfully made us, and even in our brokenness and sinfulness, that complexity is there.
21:41: So to tag a label on somebody saying, hey, because you experience a certain attraction toward someone of the same sex, that's who you are, and you can never change.
21:54: A, that's not true in experience, which, as you described, there are, you know, millions of examples, and I don't say that in exaggeration.
22:04: I believe there's actually more people who have experienced same -sex attraction to some extent, and are not living a gay lifestyle, than those who have experienced and have embraced that gay lifestyle.
22:15: So it is simplistic to say an attraction equals an identity, which equals a behavior, and there's no change.
22:22: Because I could give many examples of other kinds of attractions that the world would not commend, but they can't distinguish why do you not commend this attraction, but you do commend that attraction.
22:40: So it is very inconsistent, and I believe dehumanizing, to label someone in that way.
22:50: Yes, and why is it that nobody seems to have a problem with heterosexuals who later in their lives become homosexuals?
23:00: Why is it that heterosexuals can change, and homosexuals can't? I mean, you hear about it happening all the time in prison, where somebody who is arrested as a heterosexual, who has lived as a heterosexual their entire lives, and never had an inclination to behave otherwise, and they get locked up for a certain period of time, and they get involved in homosexual activity.
23:27: And of course, a lot of it depends on how long they are in prison, and of course,
23:33: I'm talking about voluntarily being involved in it, not those who are raped in prison.
23:40: So obviously, people change whether they are heterosexual or homosexual very often, and obviously, one would be a change for the worse, a horrible change, and one would be a change for the better.
23:56: But there is no reason logically why somebody would believe a homosexual cannot change, is there?
24:06: No, primarily because if you view people the way
24:11: God describes them, that first and foremost, we are not sexually broken, we are sinfully broken.
24:18: Like if, as Psalm 36 describes a biblical orientation, we are sinfully oriented, and it outlines, you know, because we listen to ourselves, we convince ourselves, we express ourselves, and therefore we orient ourselves.
24:33: It walks through verse one, two, three, four, and that's a biblical model of our sinful orientation.
24:43: Therefore, all other orientations, you know, flow out of that, and there are countless.
24:51: We're creating new letters in the LGBTQ on and on and on each month, and the reason for that is we've started wrong, and therefore we're continuing in a wrong trajectory as to who we are.
25:07: But saying that, I don't minimize at all the experience of those who experience same -sex attraction.
25:14: That's very real, just like those who experience opposite -sex attraction or those who are drawn to a myriad of things.
25:25: We're not questioning that, but what we are questioning is saying that that automatically defines who you are, and you have no choice.
25:33: That's what we're challenged. Now, do you believe that, as a Christian, as an evangelical, that Romans 1 is teaching us that all men really know that this is wrong, but they suppress that truth?
25:49: Yeah, exactly. Look, that's what it means for something to be contrary to nature.
25:57: When Paul talks about that in Romans 1, he's not using homosexuality as an illustration in order to say it's the last train stop on the track to hell.
26:11: That's not his point. His point is unnatural, is highlighting the visibility of the sin, not measuring the relative immorality of it.
26:20: Just as idolatry is an expression of willful blindness due to the visibility of creation, it's clearly perceived, so homosexuality is an expression of willful blindness due to the visibility of the male -female anatomy.
26:36: It's the kind of sin that falls into the everybody -knows -it's -wrong category, so you actually have to suppress the knowledge in order to not see it.
26:47: Like, for you to conclude against science, against biology, that the male -female are interchangeable and there's no difference, that would be what
27:03: Paul's talking about there with that illustration. So the worst sin is not homosexuality, the worst sin is idolatry, and that's the mother of all the others, according to Romans 1.
27:13: Now, before we move on to the errors of those of us who are conservative,
27:19: Bible -believing Christians, Evangelicals, do you have anything else that you can think of that those on the left have got it wrong when it comes to homosexuality?
27:31: Yeah, well, I think on both sides of the issue, this has become such a hot -button issue that they believe that Christians who don't believe homosexuality is right have to be filled with hate, have to have come to their conclusion based on, you know, the yuck factor of despising homosexuals.
28:00: And the reason for that, it took me a long while to realize this, because I met with so many families where you have a family member who's chosen the gay lifestyle, and the other family members who are believers who are trying to communicate love, but their love is not being received, even though they disagree with their family member, they're trying to communicate love.
28:19: And the reason I finally concluded that that message is never going to get through is because those who don't know
28:28: Christ and have chosen a gay lifestyle have defined themselves based on what we could call an experiential filter.
28:37: You know, I experience these attractions, I feel like this is who
28:42: I am, and therefore I am this way, and if you don't come to the same conclusion as me, you must have looked through the same filter
28:51: I look through in order to define myself. Therefore, they are defining us through their own filter.
28:57: Like, you must be emotionally against me. Does that make sense? And that's one of the reasons the
29:04: Church has a hard time communicating any idea of hate the sin, love the sinner, because that category is not there for the world.
29:17: It's purely an emotional filter, an attractional filter that defines them, and therefore we have a really hard time communicating through a different filter, a filter of God's truth, rather than man's experience.
29:33: We're going to a station break right now. If you have a question, whether you agree with our guest, whether you vehemently disagree with him, or you're just not sure, you can email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,
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33:59: Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Peter Hubbard, and we are discussing his book,
34:06: Love into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church. And by the way, if you ever want to purchase this book, our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service has this book in stock.
34:20: In fact, they are the ones who initially recommended Peter Hubbard to me as an excellent guest suggestion.
34:27: And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service is located on the internet at CVBBS .com.
34:35: CV for Cumberland Valley, BB for Bible Book, S for service .com.
34:41: CVBBS .com. And we want to thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for being a co -sponsor of Ironsharpensironradio.
34:49: And we thank them for the suggestion for Peter Hubbard being on the program today.
34:55: Let's move into what you believe conservative evangelical
35:00: Christians and perhaps even conservatives in general may have gotten it wrong when it comes to the issue of homosexuality.
35:12: Well, there is a slogan, simplicity, that often accompanies the description of this particular struggle.
35:24: For example, the world will say, hey, I was born this way, don't question me. And then the church often responds with the same oversimplification, no, you chose to be that way.
35:36: And that leads to a real disconnect because anyone who knows what a particular struggle is like, it doesn't matter whether you're talking about alcohol or pride, the words you chose that don't typically resonate.
35:59: You know, you didn't look on the shelf and say, hey, I want to be self -righteous. That's my sin of choice.
36:06: And so usually the Bible describes us as both villains, we do choose, and victims.
36:13: We are swept along. We are following the world. We are deceived by the enemy.
36:18: We are sinful and broken. So I think it's really important for Christians to look at the subject of homosexuality and same -sex attraction through a biblical lens so that we see all of us are sexually broken.
36:37: And once we begin to see things that way, it doesn't justify the sin, but it puts it in the context that the gospel addresses.
36:49: And I'm sorry, my mute button was on my microphone there. In regard to whether or not somebody is born a homosexual, or with a proclivity towards that, or, you know, with a natural sexual attraction to the same sex.
37:10: And when I say natural, I mean in their view of if you're born that way, that is natural to you.
37:18: Those of us who are conservative Bible -believing Christians, and especially those of us who are Calvinists, such as myself,
37:24: I assume that you probably are, although I never asked you that question. I know that you're getting your doctorate at Westminster, and a couple of the men who have written endorsements for your book are
37:35: Calvinists. But in the belief system known as Calvinism, total depravity is a key doctrine that goes hand -in -hand with original sin.
37:49: Original sin being that we are all born in sin because we all have inherited the sin of Adam.
37:56: And total depravity, basically a more descriptive term describing the extent of how that sin has affected us, and it has affected every area of our lives.
38:08: And even those that are not born again, they are not as bad as they could be, because God, in His mercy, has restrained even their evil.
38:22: Otherwise it would not be a safe world for any of us to venture outdoors, and we probably wouldn't even be safe inside of our own homes if God did not restrain evil of all men, including the unsaved.
38:36: So having said that, do you think that it is entirely wrong for Bible -believing
38:43: Christians to write off the notion that some people may be born with that proclivity if we are born in sin?
38:50: And I'm not saying this as an excuse for the activity. I'm just saying that if we are born in sin, and according to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, we are totally depraved before our regeneration, would that be illogical to think that some people might be born with a proclivity like that?
39:10: Oh yeah, definitely. I have very, very close friends who can remember, and come from healthy homes, and can remember way back, knowing that they were different from the other boys.
39:26: And as they moved toward adolescence, these differences became evident in same -sex attraction.
39:35: And they cannot, they weren't abused, they cannot remember a time when they were attracted to women, to girls, and so to say, okay, there seems to be an inborn brokenness there that is different from another person's inborn brokenness, but we all share that, you know, that sinfulness, that we are born in iniquity, is the way the
40:06: Bible describes us. And as you said, that doesn't mean we all do everything bad that we could possibly do, but it does mean that sin touches every part of us.
40:16: And just as there have been studies that people, men, with an overload of testosterone tend to be more violent, and some of the worse cases of murderers that have been studied, there was very often an abnormal amount of testosterone in that individual.
40:44: That would not give the person or society the green light to set their approval on that person or people for their activity, just because they may have been born with some kind of biological factor.
41:00: And of course there's no proof at all in regard to homosexuality that there's a biological cause of it, but I'm just saying that even when they have traced certain things to biological causes, at least in theory, that still doesn't give us as a society the right to say this is an acceptable behavior, because all of our lives are in jeopardy if we were to view murderers that way, for instance.
41:26: Correct? Definitely. Yeah, and I think even the world is beginning to recognize, you know, even
41:35: I think it's in the Atlantic magazine this past week, they're emphasizing the fact that scientists haven't found a gay gene.
41:46: And the fact is, what I think you're getting at, and what I would agree with, is even if they did find a gay gene, it doesn't matter.
41:56: It just confirms the biblical description of us. But the fact that scientists can't find a gay gene, and actually the opposite has already been proven, for example in the twin studies, where you have the largest twin studies in the world have been examined and where they had identical twins where at least one is gay, and then if they are, if homosexuality was actually genetic, then 100 percent of the time, both identical twins would, the identical twins, would both be gay.
42:40: And it's not that at all. So there's, there are clearly other factors that are coming in.
42:48: And that's what excites me about the biblical model, is it's sophisticated enough to address both the born that way and chose that way simultaneously.
43:03: And the Bible describes us as both of those. I use an example in the book of my physical wiring.
43:13: You know, I get low blood sugar, and when I get that way,
43:18: I feel very angry and frustrated and feel like I just want to break something, and especially when my metabolism was even higher when
43:29: I was younger. And I tell a story about coming home and my wife having nothing in the apartment to eat when we had newly been married, and would that physical propensity justify me screaming at my wife?
43:45: And of course no one would agree with that, because the fact that there's a physical genetic component to my anger, because I'm that way and I passed out when
43:58: I didn't eat, my mother was that way, my grandfather was that way, you know, there's clearly this genetic wiring toward high metabolism, low blood sugar, pass out, get angry, but that doesn't justify the activity.
44:15: And I think that's a very, that's a rough parallel, because I'm not saying that that's the same as homosexuality, but it's a similar parallel between the fact that we are born that way and we make real choices.
44:30: What would be some other ways that you believe that evangelical Christians and conservatives in general get things wrong when it comes to homosexuality?
44:43: Wow, where do we start? I think, and this is similar to what we're talking about, but by putting homosexuality in a different category.
44:55: For years I wondered why pastors were not talking about homosexuality.
45:02: It's very rare that you could find a pastor who had done a series on it, other than, you know, a quick condemnation or a
45:14: Romans 1 message. And at first I thought it was fear, but then the more
45:21: I did research and I did surveys around the country and found out pastors preach on scary things all the time.
45:28: They're used to controversy. So there is some fear there because of our culture's response, but I don't think fear is the primary factor there.
45:38: I've concluded that it is much more on the line of ignorance, that most of us who have not experienced same -sex attraction don't know what to do with it.
45:52: We don't have a biblical model that can explain or understand or be helpful and faithful to Scripture, so we don't say anything.
46:03: And what I'm finding is as pastors, Christians in general as well, as they gain that biblical vocabulary and that both compassionate and yet clear on what is true, that's why the book title is
46:17: Love Into Light. It's communicating both the love and the truth and the holiness.
46:22: Without compromising either one of those, can we address this in a way that doesn't put homosexuality on a special shelf, but also doesn't minimize the significance of the struggle or sin?
46:37: We have a listener in South Carolina, Tony, who says, troubling that your guest had no idea of what to say to homosexuals in counseling when the
46:49: Scripture has much to say on the issue. The first thing we learn from Scripture is that we do not ask the homosexual questions in order to decide how to address the issue.
46:59: This produces an emotional response from us rather than a biblical one. No man is to dictate the message in these sessions.
47:09: The Scripture must dictate the message. Going straight to the Scripture is what Jesus and all of his apostles did, and yes, they are going to be offended.
47:20: Praise God for that. Who has put homosexuality in a different or worse category?
47:27: Would he tread so lightly when counseling an adulterer who had walked out on his family to take up with his mistress?
47:38: I think not. This approach sounds very much like seeker -sensitive, therapeutic
47:44: Christianity, whereby we dare not offend, but it is that very offense that brings a person to his knees before God, before a holy
47:54: God. Why would you deny someone the blessing of being out, down, and trampled under foot when that is what leads to repentance?
48:07: I apologize that I don't have glasses right now to be viewing these questions in a better way, but I definitely know
48:16: I need to get a new prescription. The listener in South Carolina did,
48:22: I think, come too quickly to some conclusions about your approach here, because we've barely been on for 35 minutes or so, but we have a lot to say.
48:39: I'm really glad he pointed that out, because I think it may be a woman.
48:48: It's Tony with an I. Okay, Tony, I'm really glad this listener responded that way, because it helps me clarify that when
48:59: I say I wasn't sure what to say, of course I knew what the
49:05: Bible says about the sin, but when somebody comes into your office as a pastor and they're weeping over their sin, they know it's wrong.
49:18: For you to just look at them and beat them over the head with the sin that they already know is wrong is entirely unhelpful.
49:29: Jesus did not treat people that way. For example, take the sin of fear.
49:35: The Bible says to fear not, but yet when Jesus talked about fear,
49:42: He didn't just say, He didn't just keep repeating, stop fearing, repent fearing, don't fear, you fear your sinning.
49:49: He so carefully and gently, like in Luke 12, when He talked about fear not, little flock, for it is your
49:57: Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. He went on to explain what fear really is, how to get victory over fear, and the assurance that there is something bigger than your fear.
50:13: It is your Father's provision. So it's that kind of listening that I'm talking about where I'm actually trying to get to the root of why is this person in my church who has repented of their sin and yet wakes up every day and faces this same struggle, how can
50:36: I help them? That's much more the question. It's not how can I beat them down again, but because a good shepherd does not treat his sheep that way.
50:49: We want to be faithful to obviously we must be, but we also want to be helpful and instruct and help.
51:00: Does that, do you think, answer that question or I can elaborate more? Well you can elaborate if you'd like to.
51:07: It makes sense to me. And of course, I don't even think that, because I know a lot of pastors and I know that they have faced counseling sessions when heterosexual adultery is in focus and those are not always simple and easy counseling sessions to just read the texts that condemn adultery and fornication and the book is closed and goodbye.
51:35: Because sometimes, I'm not saying all the time, but you have certain circumstances where one spouse is denying the other marital rights in the bed and you have all kinds of things that may be going on that never justify sin.
51:52: I'm not trying to say that, but they complicate the issue is what I mean. Yeah definitely. Where you have sin on both sides and that kind of thing.
51:59: And that's why the Bible says that someone is a fool if they answer a matter before they've heard it.
52:05: And so a good pastor, a good counselor, does not begin with his finger pointed. He begins with his ears open and to listen well before you speak.
52:17: And if we assume, as Tony seems to be assuming, that if you hear someone share their heart, you're automatically going to only have an emotional response.
52:27: I think that's a sad view of biblical counseling.
52:33: Because a good speaker has first been a good listener so that you really understand who the person is.
52:43: Otherwise, you're speaking truth to someone you don't know and most likely you're missing the target.
52:49: And by the way, Tony, if you want to discover more about what our guest has to say on this issue,
52:56: Peter Hubbard, I do have a surprise for our listeners. Those of you who write in before the program is over and you have a question that is good enough to be read on the air, you can't just write, can
53:10: I have a free book? That doesn't qualify as a question. If you have a question that's pertinent to the subject and it's good enough to be read on air, you will receive a free copy of Love Into Light, The Gospel, The Homosexual, and The Church by Peter Hubbard.
53:27: And that is a compliment of Ambassadors International who provided us with free copies for a number of you.
53:34: We don't have an unlimited supply to give away, but for a number of you before the broadcast is over, if you send us an email soon enough with a question, you will receive a free copy if you want one.
53:46: And Tony, we don't have your mailing address, so if you would like a free copy of this book, email me back with your address, and of course we will not announce that on the air or anything like that.
53:58: This is just so we can ship you out the book. And once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
54:10: Well, you seem to think that there was quite a long list of things that Bible believing
54:15: Christians get wrong when they address the sin. What would be something else? Another one is, once we see homosexuality through the lens of the gospel, which when
54:28: I say gospel, I'm talking about the big gospel story of creation, fall, redemption, restoration, which of course includes the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
54:39: Once we see that, then that levels us, like we're all on the same level ground.
54:47: We're all sexually broken. Anyone who, even if we use these labels like homosexual or heterosexual, which again, several hundred years ago were not even used to describe actions,
55:04: I mean identities, they were used to describe actions. But even if we assume that, it puts us all on the same level.
55:13: I am sexually broken. I've been married and faithful to my wife for many, many years now, but every day it's a fight to guard my mind and to stay pure in mind and body.
55:29: And so once we see ourselves in that common brokenness, we see that there is grace to help in time of need.
55:38: And as I talk to people in our church who have come out of the gay lifestyle, one of the things that struck them is when
55:46: I would ask them, do the people in their small group, for example, respond with grace and helpful words?
55:56: And they said, it depends. It depends on whether they themselves have been broken and seen their own sin and have experienced the grace of the gospel, and when they have, they extend that same grace to me.
56:13: And then the body of Christ becomes this gospel -fueled culture that is really beautiful.
56:23: So that would be my biggest burden, and where that's happening in churches, it's amazing.
56:32: Like, we have small groups in our church that have people who have never experienced same -sex attraction and people who have, who are growing together in love and truth as Jesus' followers.
56:46: One thing that I can say that, and I'd love to hear your reaction to it,
56:52: I disagree with some of the labeling that you give to the issue.
56:59: For instance, I try to make it a point not to use the word gay. I dislike using that label because it seems that those who use the term gay are capitulating to a group of people involved in a very wicked and damning practice, and those who support them were capitulating to them and their label of choice, which is really a word stolen from our vocabulary by them.
57:31: Gay, of course, as most people know, at least if they're at least 30 years old or so, they know that gay means originally happy.
57:41: I don't like using that term for them, and perhaps you could react to that because you have used it, and am
57:50: I being overly harsh? What is your view of my explanation there? I totally understand why you take that position.
57:59: The way I would respond is, in this discussion, in this sense of an issue,
58:07: I feel like you have to choose your battles, and because I'm involved in this on a pretty regular basis, that's just one battle
58:17: I haven't chosen to have because labels are continually changing, and there are currently,
58:27: I think there's like 60 or 70 different sexual identity labels now that often appear in places like Facebook and elsewhere.
58:36: Many would describe themselves as gay, others obviously lesbian, bi, queer, and that word has many different definitions, so the labeling becomes really complicated.
58:52: There are some who are offended by the word homosexual, and so to me,
59:02: I primarily refer to the struggle as same -sex attraction because it just seems fairly neutral in the sense it communicates what it is, but that's just not a hill
59:17: I've chosen to die on. Right. I even know some extremely conservative Christians who don't think we should use the term homosexual because they would think it's too clinical -sounding or something.
59:32: But we have to go to another station break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air, we would love to hear from you.
59:38: We do have some more books to give away, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
59:46: chrisarnson at gmail .com, and if you could, unless you're remaining private and personal in your question, you know, you can remain anonymous in those cases, but if you can, at least give us your first name and your city and state or country of residence if this is a just a general question on the issue, a biblical question or historical or technical question.
01:00:14: chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Peter Hubbard and a discussion of his book,
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01:04:36: This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Peter Hubbard. And we are talking about his book,
01:04:42: Love Into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the Church. And we do have a listener in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Christian, who says,
01:04:53: I understand that it may be wrong on one end of the spectrum to focus on homosexuality or highlight it as a sin worse than all other sins.
01:05:04: But it seems that there is an error equally as serious on the other end of the spectrum that would put it on the same level of wickedness as eating too much at a company picnic or other sins that others would regard as trivial or that at the very least would not warrant church discipline necessarily.
01:05:31: We would never, for instance, expel a pastor from his office for certain sins, and yet homosexuality should certainly be one of them.
01:05:43: Now, I think that's a very good question and comment. What do you have to say about that?
01:05:49: Yeah, great question, Christian. I believe it depends on how we view it.
01:05:57: For example, there's no difference in one sense between jealousy and pride and self -righteousness.
01:06:10: All of these things are described in the Bible as unacceptable sins.
01:06:16: But Paul, for example, differentiates sexual sins as sins against the body.
01:06:22: There's something about that, sinning against the temple of the Holy Spirit. And so in that sense, sexual sins are different.
01:06:32: And there's also different consequences for different sins. For example, if you think a proud thought, there are going to be different repercussions than if you steal from a bank.
01:06:45: And so I think that's what people get confused is when someone says all sin is sin.
01:06:52: Well, eating too much off the buffet line may be the sin of gluttony, but there are different consequences between that and being unfaithful to your spouse and different results and different remedies.
01:07:08: So I think we have to differentiate a heart of sinfulness, which God looks at and is against all sin, and the repercussions and nature of sin are different.
01:07:21: The thing I push against is putting homosexuality in such a different category that it almost seems like the gospel doesn't speak to it, and that's when
01:07:32: I get a little animated. Right. Well, that would be a very good time to bring up something that we did not highlight during our discussion on what those on the left get wrong about homosexuality, is they say
01:07:51: Jesus was completely silent on the issue of homosexuality just because the word doesn't appear in the red -letter editions of their
01:08:01: Bible. And if you could respond to that. Yeah, Jesus didn't talk about bestiality either.
01:08:11: He didn't specifically outline every sexual sin, but when he talked about sexual immorality, every first -century
01:08:20: Jew would have included homosexuality into that category. Besides that, he very specifically outlined, negated homosexuality when he talked about the fact that from the beginning
01:08:36: God has made us male and female, and he outlined that marriage between a man and a woman, or life, is from creation.
01:08:45: So there's no wiggle room in there at all for any other sexual intimacy other than a man, a woman, in marriage, for life.
01:08:57: And that would be Jesus' position. Anything else is a rejection of Jesus' words.
01:09:05: And by the way, Christian, I forgot to mention, you're getting a free copy of the book, Love and Delight, The Gospel, the
01:09:10: Homosexual, and the Church Compliments of Ambassador International, the publishers of this book, written by Peter Hubbard, our guest.
01:09:19: And one of the things that seems that the conservative evangelical world has done is, when
01:09:31: I say conservative, I'm saying that they are known for other conservative views regarding the
01:09:41: Bible and the Christian faith and so on, but they seem to capitulate to the world's concept of homosexuals as being in a unique category, and they tend to treat it with kid gloves.
01:09:59: They tend to treat it just as the homosexual community demands to be viewed as just another community like Italian -Americans,
01:10:13: African -Americans, Hispanic -Americans, and you have men, women, and homosexuals, or lesbians, or bi, transgender, the whole list that they have.
01:10:26: Sometimes it seems to me that even the evangelicals are starting to buy into a notion of viewing them as a special community of people, and I was wondering how you would respond to that.
01:10:44: Yeah, I agree with that, that by misrepresenting what homosexuality really is, we create these subcultures and really almost like subdivisions, gated communities where someone who's involved in this lifestyle is of a different kind of person, and it sets up for this seclusion, and among conservatives, that's why you'll often hear those people, those gay activists, which
01:11:23: I get the fact that there is a really powerful,
01:11:28: I call it the gay mafia, that bullies people, crams their political agenda with great power, and recently with great success, but what
01:11:42: I think we fail to see is that the majority of homosexuals in America are not part of that, and I say homosexuals, the majority of people who experience same -sex attraction.
01:11:55: There are those who experience same -sex attraction are a part of every church in America, and they're sitting down the row from you.
01:12:04: They're just too afraid to tell anyone of their struggle, and so if we create a different category and we throw people in this subdivision, then we've basically both isolated them from us and us from them, and that is not the heart of Jesus.
01:12:25: That is not the way of Jesus. You know, he is described as the friend of sinners, and so I would say for a
01:12:33: Christian, if I don't even know someone who experiences same -sex attraction and have no contact with anyone like that, that should be something
01:12:45: I want to pray about and to have a heart for so that I can both understand that struggle and see the gospel connect with that struggle, and I know for some who are hearing me say that, they're probably immediately thinking compromise, and that is not my intention at all.
01:13:10: It would be... I know in our church, it is a huge blessing to have people in our church, many, many who have come out of the gay lifestyle or currently struggle today with same -sex attraction, and it is a beautiful thing to see the grace of God intersect with them and change their hearts and lives, and I learn from them, and I think any biblical church is going to have that experience, because Paul, when he described in 1
01:13:39: Corinthians, such were some of you, how did he know if they didn't talk about it?
01:13:45: The only way he knew there were some of them who came out of a gay lifestyle was he either led them to the
01:13:50: Lord out of that, or he prayed with them as they walked through that struggle. So it wasn't a mute issue, it was something they talked about.
01:14:00: We do have a listener in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Brian, who says,
01:14:05: I would agree that we are all sexually broken, but all sexual brokenness is not the same example.
01:14:14: God allowed polygamy in the Old Testament. God even used it to bring about the 12 tribes of Israel.
01:14:21: God nowhere allowed homosexuality. God even destroyed cities for their homosexuality.
01:14:27: As I understand things, there is such a thing as a greater sin. John 19, 11,
01:14:34: Jesus answered him, you would have no authority over me at all unless I had been given, unless it had been given you from above.
01:14:46: Therefore, he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin. So if you want to comment to Brian in Ontario, Canada's comment there.
01:14:57: Yeah, that's a great example, because there it was the sin of in pride rejecting
01:15:04: Jesus, which of course is the greater sin. And yes,
01:15:11: I think I tried to say that the fact that sin is sin doesn't mean that all sins are equal in the sense of, you know, the implications of those sins.
01:15:24: It is true that homosexuality is a gateway sin, you could say, that leads to a host of other forms of brokenness and iniquity.
01:15:42: And so, by clarifying the fact that this is a sin that the gospel speaks to, and putting us all on the same ground, like we all have different forms of sinful, you know, activity and desire,
01:15:58: I'm not minimizing the sin of homosexuality. What I'm trying to do is help us see that, let me just give you an example.
01:16:07: Last night after our service, young man came up to me in tears.
01:16:12: God had spoken to him through the word, and he's been in a homosexual lifestyle for many, many years, and he wants to leave that lifestyle.
01:16:23: He wants to follow Jesus. We cried out to the Lord together. My burden is, as we talk through this, and as another man in our church is now going to walk through applying the gospel and helping him, and as one of our pastors was over with him today, helping him break things off with his homosexual partner, you know, that's where the action is, seeing the gospel transform lives.
01:16:51: What I'm afraid of is there are many pastors, many Christians, that would, historically we've been so afraid of this sin, that it's almost like we want to farm it out.
01:17:03: Somebody comes, I've heard this story over and over again, somebody comes to a pastor and says, I've struggled with homosexuality.
01:17:09: They have no problem saying it's wrong or even praying with the person to repent, but then they farm them out to someone else to help them, and my burden is that we see, no, the church has the tools through the word of God to understand the brokenness and help that person walk in newness of life, to see who they are in Jesus, not how the world labels them, and it is a beautiful thing to see that miracle, and we get to see it on a regular basis, and I long for all churches to be equipped with, so that men and women in their church can put their arm around someone who has come out of that lifestyle and walk in freedom and not tag them with the same label the world does, not fear them, but love them in their new walk with Jesus.
01:18:05: Now, it is very often spoken of that, as you have even mentioned during the interview, people who are burdened with or battling same -sex attraction.
01:18:21: Now, one thing that does concern me is that too many Christians may say that basically we're supposed to, or these individuals themselves are supposed to wave the white flag and somehow say, this is my identity,
01:18:38: I know that I cannot pursue that kind of behavior, so I'll just be a chaste homosexual or something to that effect, whereas they are denying, it seems, the transforming power of the
01:18:52: Holy Spirit to totally remove that kind of attraction from them.
01:18:57: It seems that in some cases this is being viewed in a unique way, in perhaps a superior way than some other types of sexual perversions that we would never think, for instance, a born -again believer is for the rest of his life going to be troubled with bestiality urges and so on.
01:19:22: If you could comment on that. That's a good question, and I think that's a really big issue, because there is a balance there.
01:19:33: Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. So one of the characteristics of Christians is we don't define our own pathway.
01:19:44: We follow Christ, and that means, as Peter even learned very early, the
01:19:50: Apostle Peter, that we don't always know what's going to happen to John or, in our case,
01:19:56: Sam or Fred or Jane, but we are to follow Jesus. So that means when
01:20:02: I come to Christ, and if I'm a single man, whether coming out of an immoral heterosexual relationship or homosexual, either way,
01:20:13: I don't know what Christ has planned for me. And there are times where, like the walls of Jericho, come down and there's an absolute immediate victory, and I've seen that.
01:20:25: But then there are other times where God calls us to walk a long road of healing and transformation and intense battles, like many of the battles in the book of Joshua.
01:20:35: And the key is we're going to die to self and we're going to follow Christ. And so are there,
01:20:44: I can tell you, many stories of Christians who came out of the gay lifestyle and are still walking in celibacy, purity, singleness, and have not married a male or female heterosexual.
01:21:01: But then I can tell you other stories where they've come to Christ, and by God's grace, He has changed them and their desires over time.
01:21:10: It didn't come automatically or immediately, but over time there was real change. So I love what you said, like we don't know what
01:21:19: God has planned there, and my job as a pastor is not to say to you, hey, now that you're a Christian, let's get you a woman and let's get married and start having kids.
01:21:29: You know, that the answer to homosexuality is not heterosexuality, it's
01:21:35: Jesus. And that's the key. And if we're following Jesus, then
01:21:42: He will lead people to holiness and transformation. And that might, for some, you know, as Paul outlines in 1
01:21:51: Corinthians 7, that might include singleness or that might include marriage. But we have to be careful to try to use marriage as the homosexuality pill that's supposed to fix things, because it doesn't work.
01:22:06: Well, right, because I mean, the Bible is very clear that some are born eunuchs.
01:22:15: You can't say that science has proven people are born homosexuals, aren't born...
01:22:20: I'm sorry, I've got to rephrase that. You cannot say science has proven that people are born homosexuals, but you can say with certainty, the
01:22:30: Bible says that some are born eunuchs. Yes.
01:22:36: Right. So, obviously, you can't force marriage upon somebody that was born a eunuch, because that would provide for a really horrible marriage, a very unhappy marriage.
01:22:52: I'm going to... I usually don't do this with two questions from the same listener, but I want to just see if you could take one more shot at satisfying our listener,
01:23:06: Tony, with an eye in South Carolina, with her view of what is being said here, and then we'll move on, and we'll have to give
01:23:15: Tony another shot at a question at some other show. But she says, and here's where she's correcting me,
01:23:23: I'm not jumping the gun or assuming. She says, I've done extensive research on the dangerous movements inside the church, and I've heard all of this before, over and over again, and I am very troubled by this therapeutic approach to sin.
01:23:41: We do not have to know the person personally to stroke their emotions in order to lovingly present
01:23:48: God's truth. We all have the exact same problem, sin. It has a way of uniting us immediately.
01:23:56: It is very interesting that my advice to stick 100 % to the Scripture when counseling was interpreted by Mr.
01:24:03: Hubbard as pointing the finger in one's face. His view of Scripture is troubling.
01:24:09: Again, I have thousands of hours of research on the folly of the modern church, and his position is the classic man -centered approach that always presents
01:24:19: Scripture as problematic when dealing with an upset sinner. I think the real question is how he even hears what he is actually saying, or does he even hear what he's actually saying?
01:24:34: Okay. If you want to respond to Tony one last time on this issue. I appreciate her persistence.
01:24:43: I would completely agree with her. The answer is Scripture. The question is, you have a big
01:24:49: Bible, 66 books. Are you just going to drop it on the person? You have to ask enough questions in order to even understand the problem.
01:24:58: So she's assuming, okay, you know the problem because the person said they're gay or homosexual.
01:25:05: Well, yeah, but how did you even find that out? Well, you had to ask a question.
01:25:11: How can I help you? What is the problem? I think what she's doing, she's using her thousands of hours of research to place a paradigm on me that is unfortunate because I am fanatical about biblical counseling.
01:25:32: My only point would be, you actually have to listen to a person long enough to even know what
01:25:40: Scripture applies to that person. Otherwise, you're just throwing
01:25:46: Bible at someone when you don't even know what their struggle is or their issue is.
01:25:53: I mean, it's just like you can't just hand somebody a tract, a tract,
01:26:00: T -R -A -C -T, that has a list of all the verses of Scripture that condemn homosexuality and think that you've done your job to help that person who's struggling with a sin.
01:26:15: Yeah, and I would ask, Tony, and I don't mean to be mean at all, but I just love to know how many homosexuals, people who struggle with same -sex attraction, she's had success leading to Jesus and then leading to a free life through never asking anything about them, just simply,
01:26:38: I'm assuming, throwing Bible verses at them. And again, she cannot misunderstand me.
01:26:47: I am as fanatical, or probably more so, about the Word of God as the answer.
01:26:53: My only point is, I have to listen long enough to even know what the struggle of the person
01:27:01: I'm meeting with is, so that I can then apply the promise of God.
01:27:08: Because the promises of God are theoretical if they're not set within a context.
01:27:15: Right. But go ahead. I was just going to say that you can apply the same kind of thing where if somebody is grieving the death of a loved one, two different people can bring to them scriptural truth in totally different ways, one that will be helpful and Christ -like, and one that will just be placard
01:27:38: Christianity. Like, for instance, I've been through my own share of having close loved ones die, and I have had both types of approaches from brothers and sisters in Christ, where Romans 8 .28
01:27:58: is a precious truth. It's one of the truths that I cling to during the most horrific trials that I've ever experienced in my life.
01:28:07: But if someone just says to me, come on, Chris, remember Romans 8 .28,
01:28:12: come on now, remember Romans 8 .28, God works all things together for the good, for those who love
01:28:18: God and are called according to His purpose, come on now, that's just placard Christianity, sloganry.
01:28:26: We're not denigrating that precious truth of God -breathed scripture, but it's the way it's being used.
01:28:35: Am I right that I use an analogy? No, that's a perfect analogy, because, and that's really what
01:28:42: I was going to say, like the idea of the scripture commends us to trust God. But if I go to my friend and I say, hey,
01:28:51: I'm struggling, I need prayer, and my friend just says trust
01:28:56: God, they're probably not going to be helpful, because I know that.
01:29:02: But the friend who says to me, tell me about your struggle, help me understand, and they listen, and they ask questions.
01:29:10: Then when they speak trust God, or they pray promises of God over me, or they call me to repent of false trust, then it means something, because that call to repentance, to stop trusting whatever
01:29:26: I'm trusting, and to begin to trust God, actually is set within a context, and it actually means something.
01:29:34: And that's what personal ministry is all about. If you call that therapeutic,
01:29:40: I think you greatly misunderstand the scriptures. That's why the
01:29:45: Bible says, be swift to hear, slow to speak, because as I listen to my brothers and sisters, and hear them share their hearts with me, it, my heart reaches out to them, but it's not pure emotion.
01:30:01: It's, yes, there is emotion. Jesus, when he looked on the multitudes, wept. That was emotion. But that didn't mean that he meant that everything they're doing is fine.
01:30:10: But it did mean that he had compassion, and then when he spoke, it was full of grace and truth, and that would be my burden.
01:30:18: And of course, we have preachers, because the
01:30:24: Bible, although it is pure and inerrant, and God -breathed, we need those called of God to exegete it for us.
01:30:37: When we hear a pastor preach a sermon, he just doesn't get up and just read the
01:30:42: Bible or the biblical passage that he intended to focus on, and then close the
01:30:48: Bible and sit down. He preaches. And in the same way that when you're addressing an issue, you don't just read what
01:30:55: God has said condemning homosexuality and then close the Bible and tell the person that you're finished, goodbye, have a great day.
01:31:04: You have to do more than that, and that is not denigrating to the inerrant word of God at all.
01:31:13: It's not even denigrating the sufficiency of the scriptures, because what are we supposed to do with those?
01:31:19: And not even everyone is capable of being a teacher. I think that there's a reason why the scriptures prohibit us haphazardly appointing people as teachers.
01:31:32: Definitely. We're not just supposed to appoint a person a teacher because he is literate and can read the
01:31:40: Bible. He has to have some learned insight and wisdom on how to exegete it.
01:31:48: But we have to go to our final break right now. If you would like to join us on the air, we do have time for some more questions.
01:31:57: We have a half hour left, but I urge you to send them in now because we are running out of time. Don't go away.
01:32:12: We'll be right back after these messages. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225
01:32:17: Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a
01:32:24: Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:32:30: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.
01:32:37: We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.
01:32:44: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:32:50: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit lindbrookbaptist .org.
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01:36:01: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in, we have for the last 90 minutes been interviewing
01:36:08: Peter Hubbard, author of Love Into Light, the Gospel, the Homosexual, and the
01:36:14: Church. We have been giving away several copies of this book, and we have a couple left.
01:36:21: We do have a couple of listeners waiting to have their questions asked to you, Peter. Before I return to that discussion,
01:36:30: I just want to announce that tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron, we have scheduled
01:36:36: Dr. D. Scott Meadows, who's going to be introducing the doctrines of sovereign grace to anti -Calvinist fundamentalists.
01:36:46: On Wednesday, we have Ken Ham, the world -renowned creationist apologist.
01:36:53: And we also have, on Thursday, Bjorn Storm, an evangelist in Norway who's going to be giving us some insight as to the climate of evangelical
01:37:05: Christianity in Scandinavia. And there was no pun intended by talking about the climate there.
01:37:13: And last but not least, we have on Friday, God willing, Sam Frost, who used to be one of the leading voices of the hyper -preterist movement.
01:37:22: Of course, they don't call themselves hyper -preterists. They call themselves full -preterists or simply preterists or those who believe in realized eschatology or covenant eschatology.
01:37:33: They are basically adhering to and proclaiming the heresy that Christ will not, in a future event, return to this earth visibly and physically, and there will be no event of the future resurrection of the dead, that these things all occurred in AD 70.
01:37:55: This is a heresy that, well, although it is small, it is still growing in some circles.
01:38:02: And Sam Frost is a former leading voice in that theology, and he has repented of it and left, and he's going to give us the story of his own journey out of there.
01:38:14: So we hope that you tune in. Also wanted to thank one of our sponsors,
01:38:21: Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts. We want to thank them for sponsoring this broadcast, and their website is providencebaptistchurchma .org.
01:38:31: In your research for this book, Peter, have you come to the conclusion that there are certain ways that people do become, or certain reasons that are identifiable where people do become attracted to the same gender?
01:38:52: Yes. In the book I talk, I give a chart, the heart and homosexual influences, and the purpose of this is to help us see that when the
01:39:07: Bible says things like, for example, in Proverbs 23, guard your heart with all vigilance, for from it flows the springs of life.
01:39:17: It is communicating that our hearts are both vulnerable and culpable.
01:39:23: Like they're both, we need to guard them, but from them flow the springs of life.
01:39:32: And this is exactly what Jesus said, for example, in Mark 7, 21, out of the heart of man come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, etc.
01:39:40: So that, you put these together in many other passages, and you see that our hearts are very active, so in that sense we're making real choices.
01:39:50: There's, we're worshipping, we're wanting, as James 4 says, in our hearts.
01:39:56: Hearts are our control center, the real us, who we are. Yet there are real influences.
01:40:02: That's why we have to guard our hearts, and I outline some of those influences.
01:40:09: For example, physical influences. Some people are wired with a greater sensitivity, maybe a stronger, as you said, some stronger sexual attraction.
01:40:22: Our brains can be shaped and reshaped through pathways, through pornography, homosexual pornography.
01:40:30: And then there are relational influences, little connection with dad, lack of peer relationships, verbal or sexual abuse at times.
01:40:40: And then there are cultural influences, gender confusion, marital breakdown, you were born gay, you chose to be gay.
01:40:47: All those things are influencing our active hearts, and then from our hearts, as Proverbs says, flow the springs of life.
01:40:56: Like our thoughts, I'm different, I was born that way, I can never change. Our feelings,
01:41:01: I'm sad, lonely, hopeless, unfulfilled, without homosexual relationships. And then our actions, which homosexual pornography or masturbation or hookups.
01:41:13: So that would be a really fast summary of both the influences and then the choices that lead to what might lead to homosexual lifestyle.
01:41:27: But I have to be really careful and explain that there is no formula.
01:41:33: You know, I've met with hundreds of people who experience same -sex attraction, and the stories vary greatly.
01:41:43: And so we have to be very careful, because I think there are some Christian parents, for example, whose children have, you know, they may have a son who has come out as gay and describes himself that way.
01:41:55: And that sends the parents in this huge upheaval, like, oh no, what did I do wrong?
01:42:01: You know, was the dad, was I absent? The mom, was I overbearing? And at times there may be lessons to be learned there, but that can be really unhelpful, and a lot of false guilt that leads
01:42:13: Christian parents to respond with a lot of defensiveness at times, that is exactly what they don't need at that moment.
01:42:22: Tell us something about your own approach, and you have already said that there are obviously many different stories as to why people wound up where they were, but what is a way to approach someone with the
01:42:39: Gospel of Jesus Christ in a situation like this? And we only have about 15 minutes left to do this, but in the future we'll perhaps have you back on.
01:42:50: But contrasting the way that you would discuss the Gospel with a proud, in -your -face activist who might be holding a sign defending his or her depravity in regard to homosexuality, and contrasting that with the person who comes to you quietly and privately in your study because he's terrified and distressed and depressed about an activity that he wants to flee from, or at least a thought pattern that he wants to flee from or she wants to flee from, and obviously those are two different ends of the spectrum with that.
01:43:26: If you could start with the zealous, unrepentant, proud homosexual.
01:43:33: Yeah, that's a great question because we get a lot of help from the Scriptures in how to respond, and Paul, for example, in Titus, he's writing to a pastor,
01:43:45: Titus, in Crete on that island that was known for its homosexual community, and he makes three big points, chapter 1, 2, and 3.
01:43:55: Each is a big point, but the third point in chapter 3, he's addressing the question you're expressing, like, how do you respond to people who are in your face with their rights, with their vileness, with their any emphasizes to speak evil of no one, avoid quarreling, be gentle, and show perfect courtesy to all people?
01:44:21: For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another, but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our
01:44:36: Savior appeared, he saved us. So even in the context of the gay activist who's in your face and promoting his rights, it does not mean we fail to speak the truth, but we do it as Paul commands, with courtesy, and what
01:44:52: I find when I'm in a situation like that, you know, there's times I've gone to a gay pride parade, trying to engage someone on that level is useless, but when
01:45:03: I get to get off to the side and speak to an individual face -to -face, that's where you can speak the truth with courtesy.
01:45:12: So I would say to Christians, don't try to lob, you know, these volleys of, you know, you hate us, we hate you.
01:45:22: It really misrepresents the gospel of Jesus, and it's a false sense that we're speaking truth, because we're just volleying hate back and forth, but obey
01:45:36: Titus 3 and enter into relationship, not sinful relationship obviously, but communication with those who don't know
01:45:47: Jesus and speak with courtesy, and many times you're going to be rejected, but our job as truth speakers is to speak the truth, and with courtesy, and to trust that the
01:46:04: Spirit will use that. Now going back to the other side of the spectrum, where you have the person who seems broken and admits that they do not want to pursue this lifestyle or death style any longer, or bring their thoughts into fruition, how would you approach that differently?
01:46:30: Yeah, great question. So let's assume this person has now come to Christ, and then they're coming to me, and they're struggling still with this same -sex attraction, and they want help breaking free from this addictive lifestyle, and this is where, and I know
01:46:48: Tony's going to feel we're going astray here, but this is where I would say asking questions can be really helpful, because you'll notice what
01:46:58: Paul does in his epistles when he's addressing people with his letters.
01:47:04: He applies the gospel to their brokenness, and their sin, and their confusion, and their misunderstanding very specifically, which means he must have listened well.
01:47:15: For example, in Colossians chapter 2, he talks about their self -made religion, their asceticism, and their severity to the body, and how it has no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
01:47:28: So when I'm listening and asking questions to someone sitting across from me who struggles with same -sex attraction,
01:47:34: I want to know what's their self -made religion? You know, what are they trusting in? What are they looking to?
01:47:40: How do they define themselves? What are the contributing influences that have helped shape their heart and led to this brokenness, and addiction, and sin?
01:47:51: And as I listen, that's going to shoot me off into Colossians 3, where you find this new identity, which is the only answer to the identity theft, real identity theft, that we're under through the deception of the enemy.
01:48:07: And that's when the word is clear. If you've been raised with Christ, see things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand.
01:48:16: Set your mind on things that are above. Like there's, this is this new life that is hidden in Christ, this new identity that is different from what you were, and is now who you are.
01:48:27: And Colossians 3 outlines that. So I listen well, ask lots of questions, and then walk through this new identity.
01:48:38: And it is very exciting when people begin to catch this. I got an email recently from a young man who said this,
01:48:48: I've struggled with SSA since I was 12 years old. However, because of God's incredible goodness, and because of Christ's finished work on the cross,
01:48:56: I can boldly say that my struggle is not what defines me. I am a man created in God's image.
01:49:03: I am a new creation in Christ. It is Christ that defines me. And he goes on to explain what that means, and outlines very specifically how he viewed himself before, and now based on God's word, you know, the preaching of what we were preaching through in church, as well as counseling, how his whole view of himself is totally different, and is now shaped by the gospel of Jesus.
01:49:33: And that is really exciting when you get to see that. Well, CJ in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, New York wants to know, isn't there a time, however, that when you are discussing the issue of someone who claims to be a
01:49:52: Christian, and says that they are being plagued with these same -sex desires, isn't there a time when it is appropriate to call into question whether or not this person has ever truly been born again in the first place?
01:50:11: Yes. Yes, there are times like that. But I would say that same thing is true, because we have a huge counseling ministry, and we have many people that have come off of drugs and alcohol, that have come through many kinds of brokenness, depression, anxiety, everything you can imagine, eating disorders, all that.
01:50:33: And so when you're on the front line with the gospel, applying it to various forms of brokenness, you know there are times where somebody persists in their sin and is not open to, you know,
01:50:48: God's transforming grace. But I would say that persistent same -sex attraction falls into that same category as other struggles, in the sense that, you know, if I'm meeting with a guy who's battling with pornography, and week after week, month after month, he continues to feast on pornography, there comes a point where you say, like, do you want help or not?
01:51:20: Like, is your faith in Jesus, or are you just going to continue to dive into sin?
01:51:26: So I know they're not the same struggle, but the question is asking the same question.
01:51:33: Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, we also have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, who says, in the research that you've done when you were discussing the causes of homosexual behavior, have you found that, at the very least, when bisexuality occurs, that it may be resulting from pornography or other things that desensitize people to normal, monogamous marital marriage, where it renders it no longer exciting, and they need something more perverse in order to be aroused?
01:52:13: We have heard this kind of thing from the lips of people on death row who were serial killers.
01:52:20: Yeah, I would agree that at times, at times, that is very true.
01:52:28: And I think especially with men, that the sexual variations with men seem infinite, almost.
01:52:40: And just illustrating what you described earlier, our total depravity, that question is definitely true.
01:52:50: What do you think the Apostle Paul meant when he, almost in a way that he was indicating he was shocked when he said, even their women have exchanged the natural attraction for the unnatural, and obviously talking about lesbianism, it was as if it was a shocking thing.
01:53:09: The woman would do anything like that. What's your response to the Apostle Paul's phrase that he obviously included in there for a reason?
01:53:18: Even the women are doing this. Yeah, he's obviously highlighting the extent of brokenness and sinfulness.
01:53:31: And again, his point is to show how unnatural, like how obviously, visibly perverted that is.
01:53:44: And that's why he emphasizes both the male and female version of this, which is, by the way, one of the strongest refutations of the revisionist.
01:53:57: I know we haven't talked about that and won't get time to probably talk about that, but the whole revisionist model that is becoming more and more popular in some churches compromising the word, that the
01:54:11: Bible doesn't oppose good forms of homosexuality, it only opposes bad forms of homosexuality.
01:54:21: But Romans 1 doesn't give any good forms of homosexuality. It says, you know, men with men and women with women.
01:54:28: It is equally sinful. We have an anonymous listener from Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know if there are organizations that you can recommend, especially after some troubling things
01:54:43: I've heard about the collapse of Exodus International, and if you could explain what he is referring to regarding to Exodus International, and if you have any recommendations.
01:54:53: Yeah, definitely. Exodus was the leading voice in helping people for many, many, several decades, helping people leave a homosexual lifestyle.
01:55:06: Alan Chambers was the most recent president of Exodus, and he folded the organization a year or two ago, and has shifted his position.
01:55:20: He claims to not have concluded that homosexuality is, for himself, is not right.
01:55:28: He said it's not right. But he has taken a very different posture. The best organization now,
01:55:35: I would say, is Restored Hope Network, which is a new ministry that was formed with a lot of people who used to be a part of Exodus.
01:55:45: It's made up of a lot of really good folks, and there's also a group that I am doing a conference with coming up on November 14th.
01:55:58: Gary and Melissa Ingram are leading, I think it's
01:56:04: Love and Truth Ministries, so there are many ministries. I think you can go on Restored Hope Network website and find other ministries, as well as, if you'd like to attend the conference that is going to be in Taylor, South Carolina on November 14th,
01:56:22: I'm going to partner with Gary and Melissa Ingram. Gary comes out of a gay lifestyle, Melissa out of a lesbian lifestyle, and now the two have been married and have two children and minister.
01:56:34: We're going to come together to help equip churches in ministering to those who are experiencing unwanted same -sex attraction.
01:56:44: If you could just conclude the program by giving us your contact information and unburden your heart with what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners today.
01:56:55: Our website for the book is loveintolight .com, and if you want to contact me, you can contact me through that.
01:57:07: Our church is North Hills Community Church in Taylor, South Carolina, and we have a website, nhcconline .com.
01:57:20: The conference is November 14th, and information can be found and you can register on conference .nhcconline
01:57:30: .com. My biggest burden could be summarized with, let's stop being afraid to both speak and listen to those who struggle, and they're in every church, and the gospel has both truth and love, help, transforming power for those who struggle.
01:57:56: And I believe as the church deals with our inward struggle, we will be much more equipped to deal with the cultural struggle, which
01:58:05: I know we haven't talked about a lot, but that's a whole nother discussion. There is help if you want, if you're a pastor and want help to know how your ministry can prepare for that cultural struggle.
01:58:18: In a book you can download for free called Protecting Your Ministry, which helps pastors and ministry leaders prepare for inevitable lawsuits regarding this issue.
01:58:32: Protecting Your Ministry is put out by the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. And I want to thank you for being on our program today, and I do want to have you back at some point to address some of the things that you believe that we were not able to address during this period of time, because even two hours flies by very quickly, especially when you have commercial breaks.
01:58:56: And I just want to thank you for joining us today, Peter Hubbard, and I hope that you enjoyed your interview today here on Iron Sherpa's Iron.
01:59:05: Chris, joy to be with you. Thanks for having me. I want to thank all of our listeners, especially those who took the time to write in, even those who seem to have a problem with what was being said.
01:59:17: And I want to know that all of you who have provided your addresses will be getting a copy of Peter Hubbard's book.
01:59:24: I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater