Does the Long Ending of Mark 16 Belong in Our Bible?

Opening Banter and Show Setup

You said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply.

Not to that. It's not only to that statements would be either true or false.

So is it true that I'm talking to you? Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist?

Well, I mean how.

Babies exist.

Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

I mean.

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions you have about God in the Bible. We can answer any question that you have about God and the Bible if you doubt that go to apologetics live .com.

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I am your host Andrew rap for the executive director of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast me of which this Podcast is a proud member. So with that we're going to be having a discussion once our guests get in on the topic of Does the ending of mark 16 belong in our Bibles?

Have you ever considered that before? There's actually a lot of discussion on that and we're going to hopefully get into that Once our guests get in here. I don't have a co-host with me right now. He is taking the night off since we had two guests in so one guest is mr. Aaron Brewster.

Well, he's regular here now or becoming the other is dr. Keith Foskey. I know people don't know that he has that couple initials in front of his name doctor. But we'll call him that so He is working on preaching through Matthew 16.

We did a show we were on I was on his show and we were having a lot of fun and we Said hey, he wanted to see you know, the Aaron and he wanted to come on. We wanted to have discussion. We decided to do that as a topic.

So that is one of the things that we're going to look to do we are. We will answer your questions if you have the way to join in asking a question the best way is to go to apologetics live comm and If you go there, you can as I said scroll down to the stream your icon.

That is how you join us just give permission to your for your browser to use your camera and your Microphone because if we don't hear you, well that doesn't do much good here. So We will be looking to have your questions if you go well, I really don't want to do that.

I don't want to be on camera. Well another way you could do it and this is the advantage of Watching this live is to go on the apologetics live comm and if you go there You will see watching it right there is the YouTube link and if you click on that to go to YouTube.

That will help for you to be able to see all of the well typically very interesting and lively Conversation that goes on that as a host it can sometimes be quite distracting and quite fun. So let me bring in Dr. Tosky and mr. Aaron Brewster rub it in every single time.

Not actually it's you know, I I said before you guys got in here that most people don't know he's got a doctorate actually Mr. Keith Foskey here. Dr. Keith Foskey. So we're gonna call him that on the on the show tonight since we're gonna talk, you know Technical things and not be the humorous that he normally is known for.

Well, it's actually really serious.

It's a doctor of podiatry, right? Well, I was gonna say it came in a Cracker Jack box. So it really doesn't. If you filled it in yourself, you just write in is like pH dork. Is that sort of like the one that Joe Biden has.

Joe Biden has a doctor she sleeps with him I said Jill Biden. She's the one that's the doctor, right? That's what I said. He has a doctor and she sleeps. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Okay, so Keith some folks may not know who you are because you're you're actually you're that guy.

I am.

You know. We've talked about you being that guy and what I mean by that is that the very I had that exact this exact same thing when you and I first met. I saw you online. We're you know. Preparing to go to a conference.

You were at that conference. I looked at you and said, yeah. I've never met you before. Never seen you before. And then you played a video of.

The.

He's brushing it there.

I.

Think. We came in from a birthday party. I'm like, we're just rolling in here. Today is the 44th birthday of Aa Ron Brewster and and so we were. We were really pushing it to get her on time. Yep. There was the cake and I had to brush my hair.

Yes.

Your activity that that you're doing that you've been doing today, but. Or this whole whole week maybe. But for folks that don't know who you are Keith I mean you're you're. You're most known for your very humorous videos on the internet ominational.

Meetings of different things and that's where when I saw that video and oh wait, you're that guy. Yeah, so Kathy is saying happy birthday a .m.

Thank You Kathy.

By the way, I'm trying to connect with my laptop so I can have fun in the comment section. Like I always do don't let me into the studio.

Well, I don't have to let you into a studio you just go go on to Facebook or to YouTube and You can do it there.

You don't have to. You know, I always just do it from StreamYard. I never okay.

So so Keith let you if it could just introduce yourself to the audience here. I don't. I think this may be your first time on apologetics live.

I don't remember it is you've had me on your you've had me on your other show before but it's I think it's impossible to Be on all of your shows because you have so many and so like to be on all of your shows.

It'd be very difficult. You're very you stretch yourself. Very very. Why you stretch a very wide net my friend.

I I thought you were gonna say that I stretched myself thin and I was gonna you know. Comment since you made it. You made a comment about me making a size joke to you. I was going to say hey.

It's already I knew.

You shouldn't have come. I.

Invite you into my home. I.

Know my studio space for you. You invited Aaron into your home and studio. Not me. Let's get that straight. That's the problem.

He's blaming me for inviting the whole world in. This is my studio.

You asked actually I was honored to step in here. It was like it was just stepping in. This is the holy. Yeah, we're the really the magic happens. There's the sanctum sanctorum.

Yeah, so I my name is Keith. I like long walks on the beach. I like to Read and to eat Oreos in bed. Oh wait, you're running my like, I'm sorry. Don't eat Oreos in bed that attracts bugs. Okay. The best in you Keith I could see I make I make jokes about Denominations and for some reason people think that that's great.

And so that's that's basically who I am. Oh, and I also pastor the same church that I've been in since I was seven. And so that's that's pretty important to in fact. That's the most important thing I did in my life outside of having six children and a wife who loves me.

And I'm very grateful for that.

Yes, we're you know, so this this week you guys are together doing in a A karate camp that you're you're running and you brought Aaron into. I Don't know why you why did you bring Aaron to so people could see how not I will tell you.

I'll tell you exactly why he brought me in. He felt he felt indebted to me. He we were both in Tennessee. And then he drives away and about an hour.

How many hours was it. Four hours? I was four hours into an eight-hour trip four hours later.

He has a phone call from me said hey Keith do you have all your luggage. And because one of the one of the his bags was still at the house where I was so We he turned around and I was actually just going the same way he was going for the most part.

So we met halfway back and it was there and he's like, hey, we're both martial artists. I got this thing. I think he was just feeling bad one way to say. Thank you.

That's true. Cuz you know, he did he didn't invite me and I do martial arts, but no no, I get it.

No, I I did something special for him. Well.

Your martial art, although I will say this it certainly wasn't a it was not a just a thank you. But I am very thankful for what Aaron did for me, but on the drive back. You know, I got that two hours because I'm four hours down.

You're gonna meet me. Two hours back I was thinking about like just how nice of a person you were. And I said, I'd really like to introduce you to my students knowing that you and I both have A similar background of martial.

It's not the same you you you have a different style. But we both been in about the same amount of time. We both do a similar style of movement. We talked about that this week. Yeah, and we both teach different weapons.

And so Knowing that you did nunchucks. I knew the kids would love it and I will say this. He's taught nunchucks all week to the kids and it is the world's most dangerous fidget spender. My son has been just playing with it.

And I'm like, it's a fidget spinner that can kill you like it.

Well, I I can from personal experience tell you that if you're if your nunchucks are made of kookaball wood and You accidentally slap them upside the back of your head. You can knock yourself out. Completely unconscious, but I saw stars a kookaball woods very hard.

My nunchucks are made out of kookaball wood. I have several that I made myself. So yeah have some, you know, I'll have to get together with you Aaron and we'll have to you know, have to check it out. Yeah, we could check it out.

I I actually do have you know. When you for folks that don't know when you get to a certain level You have to move your own you have to do your own movement. So I'm gonna do a little bit of a. You have to at least in in my style that I was doing issue and so I had to develop my own My own moves that I did with nunchucks.

So ones I think are still that I don't. I haven't seen anyone else do but that's okay. Aaron will probably go. Oh, I've been doing that for years.

No, I guarantee you it's original to you. Percent so. One last one last little piece of that story. He was so nice to me inviting me out. I Just couldn't post the unboxing video. I did of going through his luggage.

Keith's Foskey's luggage right here. Let's see what's inside. Look at the size of these pantaloons. It was so nice. I couldn't post it. So the word pantaloon just a funny word. It's a great word.

I love that. I love good words, you know, and I don't know if you have a picture available.

Keith but you did post a picture that Aaron being there you you got to meet a real live Mermaid. I did. Yeah, and What a week. I meant to download that and share that but If you if you get that ready, I'm gonna I'm gonna share something else first.

You had both of us on your program this week.

And.

So if you if folks want to go to Your Calvinist with Keith Foskey is the is the podcast you can. You definitely want to find the YouTube. What is the YouTube channel?

Is it Keith Foskey or is it he just way to find me is just to type in your Calvinist like like I'm your I'm Your huckleberry. I'm your Calvinist and Anywhere you are. It'll find me whether it's Twitter Facebook or you can just go to Keith Foskey comm and it'll it'll link you to everything.

Okay, so this was this is a clip and and I can't get blamed for this because I pulled this from your channel.

So.

This is what ended up happening. This is what happened this this past week when we were recording. So this this really happened. Some of the audience are going 2001. I wasn't even born then. Yeah, I get it.

Thanks.

We have 20 year olds listening to this. Listening to three old men. Oh pine about independent fundamentalist Baptists. This is a happening Friday night.

It's the only thing they're watching on their TV.

If you are 20 years old or younger, please leave a comment.

So is that was pretty funny. You're asking homeschoolers if they're homeschooled against their will to please blink three times as they're.

And a lot of people have messaged me I'm under 20 and I watch your show and I was honored to know that I'm reaching the next generation Budget Section of that video that video has a just real quick. This only take a second that I already posted.

Oh, yeah that little video. He just showed has Has been seen let's see 4 ,000 times and it's got 41 comments and most of the comments are people saying they've seen it. So that makes me that pleases me that my minions are out there and they're under the age of 20.

Well, this comment may please you more that came in Biblical Baptist says whenever I'm having a bad day. I watch a Keith Foskey video and everything's.

Okay, that's my man right there. Thankful so did you. Did you find the picture of you in the. I'm trying to figure out how to put it up.

I'm right here where it says present present. Slides not slides go to present and then do. Window it'll go to so you do share screen and then window and then share that. He's really good at technology folks, don't worry.

Hold on and.

Then we're gonna we'll let you guys explain this picture and maybe even who this.

Mermaid is that you you captured outside of water. It was not a capture. She came willingly.

It was a it was what it was catching. Released.

Now it won't it won't it's it's giving me a hard time, bro. Okay, can I send it? Can I just drop it over to you and it to me and I'll put it up.

Over to me I will.

So I thought I was a professional but. You you you you have shown me that I have yet to reach true professionality. You do use StreamYard, right? I do but I don't know why I've done that before but I think because I'm not the host it's giving me some limits.

No, because I don't have that on. So, all right, so while I wait for that photo I don't know if I'm Aaron. If you do you want to set up this photo?

Yeah, okay. Well what I told the little they're all these little ninjas, you know, we were working on them this week.

I just sent it to you in your messenger and.

So he was like, how do we even introduce this because it was a very sweet gesture by the individual that you will see in the photo and I just told him I said Master Foskey and I were training under the pale moonlight doing our kata and As we were out there we saw something gleaming in the moonlight and we heard a rustle and we came face to face with a mythological creature and I don't remember everything.

I said it was probably Ridiculous. I got the kids all hyped up and I said and we said will you come back and will you meet our students? And so we sent the kids out into the back looking for some some Unspecified creature and they went rushing out and they I'm not sure if you found the picture yet or not.

You did. Yep, and they found a mermaid a real-life mermaid Fenn from Looking-glass Falls and the kids loved it. Yep, kids loved it and and had a blast and she she did all the stuff that mermaids do.

You know blow bubbles and sing some songs, you know, everyone knows this this is what mermaids do. I mean this song the song that she sings before she drowns you that was not this kind of song Siren song, that's right.

But.

This is my this is my lovely wife Johanna. She is a professional mermaid and as a way of saying thank you for just being fantastic hosts this week. She offered she's a hey if the little girls and some of the little boys would like this we can do it and.

And she did it and it was a lot of fun. But he posted this picture on Twitter and you can tell him why you did that. Oh because there's a big.

Thing right now about whether or not mythological creatures actually exist and there's the haunted haunted cosmos. Bros are trying to convince everybody that Bigfoot is a fairy and not like that like he likes other male Bigfoots, but like he's a fairy that some you know.

You'll find out in the comments, yeah.

But.

Anyway, they got all these weird views of stuff and and that was me saying to them. Hey, I found a real mermaid. So.

Mark 16 and the Question of the Longer Ending

All right, so let's get into our topic and I know Aaron you you got some birthday stuff to do. So yeah, I know you got a drop early.

I don't know if I might actually be able to stick around. We were trying to work it out so that I don't have to jet, but We'll see they may want me to leave before it's too too far gone now. I do. I do see an advantage we could do.

Here we might be able to do something. Others have not been able to see here. Keith if I add this picture and we can see more of your studio there behind Aaron.

Hey, I can do a studio tour real quick. Hold on. These are the three. Oh you took it away. These are the three go back. These are the three Star Wars posters. That's that's that's new. Hope this is Empire and this is Revenge of the Jedi which was the real name before it became Return of the Jedi right there.

That's the original trilogy right there. Wow.

So let's get into your sermon prep. Sermon prep right. You're. You're preaching through mark 16, right?

I'm preaching through the gospel of mark and I'm about to start the 16th chapter. Yes. See so this is sermon prep.

Ah.

Well, that makes sense.

This this is a you know for folks who don't know the ending of the gospel mark there is a lot of debate discussion That this is so if you if you have a Bible open take a look mark chapter 16, I'm gonna read verse 8 and this is where There are some who believe that the gospel of mark and its original ended here and it's it says.

And They went out and fled from the tomb for for trembling and astonishment had gripped them and They said nothing to any anyone and were afraid. That's a strange way to end a gospel.

No.

If that ended there there's there's no nothing about the the Great Commission there there's nothing about. You know the you know Christ saying to. You know Christ speaking to them nothing about his resurrection.

It just ends where they're afraid. And so this was son Keith you wanted to talk about son that you textual criticism is something I I like to to talk about here as well. It's I think it's helpful for folks to understand it.

And so I want to open up the floor first to you to to start, you know to share what your thoughts are with it. What you want? What you think would be important for folks to know? And then I do want to at least explain what textual criticism is if you don't.

So I know I would I if you don't mind, I'd like to kind of give a Prelude to the conversation as to just talking about why this is even part of the conversation and it sort of it came to. It came up just this week a friend of mine who I love very much.

He's actually a fellow martial artist coincidentally, he posted a picture of a Bible it was an NIV and I don't know I don't remember the verse that he was in. But it was a verse that skipped a verse where it went from like 21 to 23.

And he posted a picture of the NIV Bible and he said see this is why I believe all the other translations are heretical and they're all Corrupted and this is why we should only be using the King James Bible.

And so this Conversation is more than just is the longer ending of mark and we'll talk about what that means in a moment. But it is a longer ending of mark the right Ending but it really gets down to the question of the authenticity and the reliability of the text.

Because when someone notices in their Bible if they're using an NIV or ESV. If they notice in their Bible, there's a verse that jumps a verse goes from 21 to 23 or whatever. They will say Why is that the case?

Why doesn't it go from 21 to 22? Well, the reason for that is because that particular verse in that particular Translation that the translators have determined based upon something called textual criticism that that particular verse does not belong In the actual text most of them will put it in the footnotes the ESV will include it in the footnotes, but that particular verse is not found in some of the Manuscripts that we have and we have a lot of Greek New Testament manuscripts.

And we also have other translations that were very early. There's Coptic there is Latin old and the The the Vulgate Latin which is later. And so there are different forms of these texts and some of these texts do not exist in the oldest Manuscripts that we have so that's why those are not in some of the newer translations.

And so it brings up the question of well, who's right is the King James, right? Is the NIV right? Who are these translators to think that they can just come along and take out a verse and why if they took out a verse?

Why would they just not number verse 22 as verse 22? And and so there's a lot of questions that come with this and and I know I don't want to waste everyone's time because I Imagine your audience probably, you know knows a lot about these things.

I don't want to just sit here and go over all the basics. But the reality is if you know nothing of this subject. It's easy to become confused and it's easy for people who are trying to push an agenda particularly for one Translation whether it be for the King James or whatever.

It's easy for them to push a lot of Scariness on you because the first thing they're gonna say is look this has been corrupted and we hear the word corruption. Along with the word Bible that becomes frightening because nobody wants to be carrying around a corrupted Bible.

And so that's the issue at hand and I hope that wasn't too much information I don't know if you want me to keep going or if you want you if you want. Yeah.

Let me because some people I. I know that when I was teaching a Wednesday night in church We had people who freaked out because of the fact that. They had you know, they I mentioned about a textual variant.

And.

The person freaked out saying like because he was a KGV person he wasn't KGV only because he was in a church that used ESV. So he still went to church there, but.

He.

He definitely freaked out at the thought that there could be question when it comes to Mistakes in in the copies. So, I mean at least let me explain what we talked about textual criticism. That textual criticism is is a science we use to try to get back to the original of what the Bible says and We have to recognize that people as they make copies.

If you made a copy of the Bible and if you doubt that you could Do this try it sometime. Make a copy of the entire Bible by hand.

Right, you don't actually a lot of people who do that. Interestingly enough you can search it online. There are lots of people who've done it nowadays.

Yeah, and.

Mistakes happen you skip a line you You know things like this happen and and we call those variances and so. Hopefully by the end of the show that won't concern you because we'll explain all that if you really need.

I will say that if You get my book. What do we believe? Chapter two deals with this subject. Okay, the reliability of Scripture. Can we trust the Bible that we have? I'm gonna argue the answer to that question is yes In case you're wondering but within that there's two main passages That probably come under the most criticism.

When we look at this one would be the ending of Mark 16 and the second would be in in John Oh, I forgot offhand, I think John 7 but the the woman caught in adultery. When you look at the woman caught in adultery, we end up finding that passage moves around in some manuscripts.

And so some people do not think that is original the others is Mark 16. There's a lot of discussion here. So Keith what is it about Mark 16 that causes people to question whether verses 9 to 20 Belong in were they you know that they some people say they're not written factually.

John MacArthur when he was preaching through Mark said that.

9 through 20 does not belong in the Bible. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, he was he was pretty firm on that I was very I don't wanna say surprised. But I mean he he kind of came down because he had preached through mark.

It was the last book when he finished that sermon people stood up and applauded because he had finished Preaching every verse of the New Testament. The last book he did was mark and when he finished that sermon It's just a funny sermon to applaud because really the sermon was how these last 12 verses or whatever don't belong in the text and it was Funny ending but yeah, it's like respect baby.

No so yeah, the the issue is Similar to how you talked about the the the story of the woman caught in adultery. Which is called the pericope adultery the three the three major textual variants that most people want to debate are the Kami Ohanian, which is first John 5 7 the pericope adultery, which is the this woman caught in adultery and.

Then the longer what's sometimes referred to as the longer ending of mark and the reason why it's called the longer ending is. Because in the textual data that we have there are actually three endings.

There are some manuscripts that end at verse 8, which is what you said earlier you read verse 8. There is a there is a shorter ending that comes after verse 8 that has just a few A little bit of information.

It's a very it's a very Minority subset of texts and then there's the longer ending which does exist in most of the manuscripts most of the manuscripts do include the longer ending but most of the manuscripts exist after a 2 ,000 years after they were written we were talking about the second millennium Manuscripts, which is most of Marx manuscripts.

So when we talk about the number of manuscripts that has it if you're going purely on the counting of noses. Which is this many manuscripts has it versus this many manuscripts don't the longer ending wins.

Because you're talking about pure numbers. That's what's called the majority view if you and and and the majority view is. It's a perspective you're familiar with this Andrew that there's a majority text view right like that.

We're gonna take whatever whatever the majority has. But that's not really the way textual Data should be interpreted. At least that's not the way most people think textual data should be interpreted not just by the majority but rather Manuscripts are weighted based upon their dating how old they are.

They're met they're they're weighted based upon the type of text that is used whether it is called a Unsealed text or a minuscule text and unsealed text means it's all capital letters. No. No punctuation and no spacing.

Those are unsealed texts and the unsealed texts are the first couple hundred years. Minuscule later referred to as the cursives they came later. And so most of the manuscripts of mark are minuscule most of them are much later so when we're looking at the earliest manuscripts the unsealed manuscripts the longer ending is not in those and the next bigger issue is.

It's not. It's not consistent. There's no consistent ending among them. Some have the short ending some have some end at verse 8 some don't have the longer ending until later. And so it's it becomes an issue of what did the original say and that's the that's the question and.

And that's an important point is when we do textual criticism There's a couple things we look at as you mentioned first is how old is it? Right. Why was that important for folks to understand you mentioned the age the closer it is to the original the less likely Not guaranteed.

But the less likely that someone made copying mistakes every time it gets copied. There's a chance of someone making a mistake if you have an older Manuscript it is more likely and I'm being specific with using the word likely that it has that it's closer to the original the reason I say that is you might have a a manuscript that was copied from a from the from the autographs.

But it wasn't copied until a thousand AD and even though it's a thousand years after if that was only one Only only one Copy that was done. Then it's likely that that will be. That's going to be better.

Okay, so the we don't unfortunately have a way of being able to say, okay, we we're gonna be able to just Mark off. Okay. This is how many you know, this this has been You know copied this many times it'd be nice but we don't have that and so we use the H and So the other thing is as you know, Keith mentioned is the number of manuscripts the majority of manuscripts 95 to 99 percent of the manuscripts of mark have what is referred to as the traditional Ending.

Okay, or the would Keith mentioned that the majority ending So the number of manuscripts that have the same reading is helpful but now we have a dilemma with this because the as I just said 90 to 95 to 99 percent have a traditional longer ending but the oldest ones have Do not have that ending.

Okay, some of the the the two major Texts that we have is is the Kodak's set a canis and the Kodak's Vaticanus those are the two that we have that are much older. They do not have that reading and so.

But there there is one thing that We recognize with it is there's four or five different endings.

Yeah, and.

That's what makes people's really look to say, okay. Why were there all the differences. And I get. So you have one. You have a couple things like someone might have written. Copy. Made a copy of Matthew 16.

Oh, I forgot. I stopped at verse 9. Maybe maybe because it ends in this abrupt way saying That they were afraid and the person got afraid to write anymore just ran away. I don't know.

Okay, I can't copy anymore.

And then you had would have something where you'd have a manuscript that someone left something out and. Those that would hold to a traditional ending which would say something like that happened right that they just stopped short.

The those that would you know, but the thing that I look at is I look at there's four or five different endings to it and. Because of that I kind of think Keith that right there says that there was differences That people had in an ending.

There's there's some that continue. And include verse from 9 to 20. There's some that stop at verse 14. There's there's ones that have different readings. There's some that we only see in the Latin. We don't see it in the Greek.

Where did they get it? We don't know.

Right. Did they copy it from early early Greek?

So I can jump in here real quick. You want to finish that thought Andrew? Yeah. Well, no.

That pretty much was. Captures it.

Yeah, so I I think this is really important for everyone to consider whether you've studied this before or not. This is super super important to consider for a couple reasons. If you are if you believe in the sufficiency of the scripture you believe in the supremacy of the scripture you believe in God Communicating his word to us and no jot or tittle is gonna pass away.