10 Years as a Family Integrated Church: What Have We Learned?

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One of the encouraging things sometimes is to hear little voices in the sanctuary, you know there's nothing that says the sanctuary has to be this cold and sterile and You know silent place, you know

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If you hear a child make a noise Or if you hear someone a child cry or something that that that might can throw us off for a second and that might can

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Distract us but at the end of the day that shows life striving for superior theology and And denominational unity one joke at a time

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Your Calvinist podcast begins Now Welcome to your

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Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and I'm not just any Calvinist. I'm your Calvinist.

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I'm your Calvinist And I'm welcoming today the most beautiful woman in all the land my wife

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Jennifer Foskey who is with us today in the studio This is the Theo Shed and our home studio and she is with me today to discuss the subject of family integrated church and the reason for this is

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I did a video last week that was entitled red flags when visiting a new church and We had a super patriotic church.

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We had a woke church We had a church that just wanted your money So we we had a bunch of different churches that we were sort of teasing and joking about in that video

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But the one that got a lot of attention I was surprised was the church that said it was called we called it the way church church on the way and that church was

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One where no children were allowed in the sanctuary. No way. Yeah. Yeah you actually

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I want to give Jennifer the Props on that that was her joke. She says children in the sanctuary. No way.

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No way. That's her Welcome to church on the way where everyone is welcome in our worship center

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Except children who are required to either go to weigh nursery weigh children's church or weigh youth

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Because our pastor does not like any distractions and his sermons are not always g -rated

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Kids in the sanctuary we say no way So a lot of people have commented on that video

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And said well what's wrong with that? What's wrong with the church that? Doesn't want to be distracted and then some people have said well, you know, we don't want distractions when we're worshiping what's wrong with having a place for children to go and What's wrong with things like children's church and nurseries and stuff like that.

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So First of all, I want to say in defense of the video The the red flag in the video is all about a church that forbids children in the sanctuary, right?

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Yeah, it's it was when we wrote that joke when we were writing that skit and and by the way for those of you

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Who don't know Jennifer helps me write my skits. She is brilliant. She's funny and She is beautiful.

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So I am a blessed man and She helps me write all my skits. Well as we're writing that where we

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Remembered that there was actually a church where we saw that there was a man online I'm not gonna mention his name.

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He ended up being defrocked though He ended up getting being put out of his church and this man said in no uncertain terms

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Children are not allowed in the sanctuary because my sermons are not g -rated and I said wow

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That's a I'd never heard anyone say anything like that before. So That was and some of this has come from our own experience.

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We when we travel and go on vacations we visit churches and we've

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Been told several times like no your children belong in here. Yeah, you can't with us

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Yeah, we want them in the sanctuary with us. No, why don't you why don't you put them here? Yeah, and and sometimes we get four or five people come up to us.

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Hey, can we take your kids? And the answer is no Yeah And and in in line with all of this

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One commentator did or one commenter commentator one person commenting on the YouTube video Asked if we would be willing to do a video on family integration and because a lot of my videos do

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Flow out of people who ask questions and they flow out of interest. That's what today is all about And that's why

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I invited Jennifer because Jennifer is obviously my wife. She's the path You know, I'm the pastor of Sovereign Grace Family Church, and she's my wife

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And so we do ministry in a sense together and she's my the first lady Where's my hat

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Yeah get the first lady hat, okay, you know, that's funny that's funny. Yes, she's the first lady.

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Yeah, okay Lot of churches do have that they say that but it's definitely not something we say in our church

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Yeah, so But one comment again, I'm saying it again one commenter said hey, could you do a show about family integration?

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So that's what today is about But before I go further I want to throw up right now a quick reminder

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That I'm gonna have in all my podcasts moving forward Hey guys, I just want to quickly say thank you for watching this episode

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And if you're enjoying it, please hit the thumbs up button. If you're not enjoying it hit the thumbs down button twice

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Also, if you haven't already please subscribe to the channel It really helps us out and some of you've asked about how to support the channel if you'd like to support us

05:35

You can go to buymeacoffee .com slash your Calvinist and leave a donation Most importantly we want to make sure that everybody who hears this podcast

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Here's the gospel the word gospel means good news And that good news has to be preceded by some bad news and the bad news is this that we are all sinners

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Sin is breaking God's law. So we stand guilty before the Lord of the universe But the good news is

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God sent his son into the world to pay the penalty for everyone who would believe in him Jesus came into the world lived a perfect life and he died a substitutionary death for everyone who will believe and he calls us all to repent of our sin to turn from our unbelief and Trust in him as Lord and Savior and if you've never done that I encourage you to do so today now back to the show

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Okay, so we're back before I go any further I do want to do a little fun game with you

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Jennifer before we get into the meat of the show But I've been I've been bringing back the would you rather I enjoy would you rather and and I've been kind of making this like personal and somewhat individual so Would you rather?

06:41

You get to choose one, but only one would you rather go to a Bible conference where Allie Beth Stuckey?

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Was speaking. I know she's I know I know you you're gonna take me to the founders conference.

06:54

Oh, well, unfortunately We can't make it to the founders conference would have would have enjoyed it I will be but throwing that out though there.

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I am going to be interviewing Scott Callahan from the founders who is head of their or is

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I guess he's the head He's he's leads up their Institute of Public Theology. He's gonna be on the show in a few weeks.

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So We're big fans of the founders. I'm very thankful for them So would you rather go to a

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Bible conference with Allie Beth Stuckey who's speaking or would you rather go to a music concert?

07:25

with Andrew Peterson Oh, man, I Know you combine them in one.

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Yeah But if you had to choose if you had to choose, I think

07:39

I would go with Andrew Peterson Okay, you love I know you love Andrew Peterson and and and I know we both celebrate

07:46

You celebrate his entire catalog There's an office space reference for my for my my office space fans out there, okay

07:55

Well being that is on our mind right now. I have been given two books. Actually, I've been given three books giveaway

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But I'm only gonna give away two on this show. I'm gonna give away one on on a different show, but I have two books that have been given to me by a listener a

08:12

Longtime listener and good friend, but asked to remain anonymous and has asked that we give these away on the show

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This is golden booklet of the true Christian life by John Calvin. It is a

08:24

Devotional booklet and I have two to give away today. So here's how I'm gonna give them away this is going to be like first time or Kind of first out of the box the listener who is listening now and comments

08:36

Would you rather go to a Bible conference with your favorite Bible teacher or go to a music?

08:43

Concert with your favorite musical artist That's what you have to put and you have to put who it is your favorite

08:48

Bible teacher or your favorite musical artist the first Two people who leave a comment with the answer to that question

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Will receive a message from me to contact you to send you one of these books So it's my way of saying thank you to for listening and thanks again to the person who sent me these books

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To give away. So thank you so much for that All right So the title of today's show is ten things or rather things that we've learned after ten years as a family integrated church and First of all,

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I think to help Get us started. We should actually answer the question What is family integration? Because a lot of people have never heard of that and when

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I mentioned family integration to people sometimes I just get like blank looks People just kind of what are you talking about?

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So family integration means that the children are not separate from the parents

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In the worship service, so that means there's no Children's Church Sometimes there's no nursery.

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We're going to talk about that in a little while But basically the goal of family integration is that people be together in the worship service children and their parents

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And there's different ways that churches do this There's absolute family integration where there's no Sunday school where there's no nursery where there's no

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Children's Church There's no after church activities that involve just children and those those are like strict family integrated churches

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And then there are churches sort of like ours where there's a mix like like we have our children in an age -graded

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Sunday school so that's something that we do at Sovereign Grace Family Church, and then there's something called family equipping and Family equipping we have some friends who instead of using the term family integrated because there is some

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Little bit of baggage that goes along with that. There's some history behind that movement Family equipping

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I think came out of Southern Seminary, I think that term came out of Southern Seminary, but I could be wrong about that but family equipping basically is this is a similar concept where we were the where we want to equip the parents to to minister to their children and therefore we want the children and the parents to be together in the worship service and I would say

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That's similar to what we're doing But we're more family integrated in that we don't have a youth group a lot of family equipping churches

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We'll still have a youth group and things like that. So so it really is again. There's there there is no There there it's hard to make a hard and fast definition, but essentially the idea is that we

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Like when people ask her ask me do we have a youth pastor? My answer is we have 40 youth pastors and because every father in our church and maybe we don't have 40 fathers a smaller church but but you know the

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Using that term for we have 40 youth pastors what what I'm saying is every father who has children in the home has the opportunity to be to his children a

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Teacher of the word and to his wife a teacher the word first contents 14 says if you have a question, what are you supposed to do?

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Go to Google No Yeah, ask your husband at home, right so so that puts the

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I've always said that puts the onus on the man that the man's Responsibility is to know the word so that is if his wife has a question she can go to him and feel confident that she's going to get an answer that is from the word and so We we really take a

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We believe it's very important to teach fathers Fathers and mothers but father specifically to lead their families well

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And so that's a big part of the family integrated movement. Now Jennifer. When did we adopt family integration?

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As I said, the title of the show is 10 years, but we've been we've actually yeah I just that's just gonna make a good thumbnail, you know

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Yeah, I think maybe as early as like 2010 maybe 2011

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Well, we know we know when we change the name of the church and for those who don't know our church used to be

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It was it was salivate No No, no used to be

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Forrest Christian Church And we we left we were part of the old disciples of Christ Church back and back when

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I was a kid because I've been In this church since I was a kid. We were part of the old disciples of Christ Church that stopped and In 99 and then we became reformed 2009 2010 and then we decided to change our name to go along with the

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Reformation that we were we were experiencing in 2011 so we became

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Sovereign Grace Family Church in 2011 and That's about so 12 years then

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I guess well again, I'm bad at math But by that point we had already started taking steps though Yeah, we had already and we're gonna talk about that here in a minute some of the steps that we took

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But do you remember who the biggest influences were in that time? Who was influencing us in the way of?

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Family integration probably Vody Boggum Okay, we were learning

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More about what that looks like. Yeah him. I mean through him and through his family driven faith yeah, he wrote the book family driven faith and There there were other guys

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I can't remember names right off the top of my head But but Vody was a big voice for that at the time.

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Obviously probably still is I don't I it's not something I hear as much anymore But I don't listen to him as much anymore

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Not I mean, I love Vody, but I just time doesn't allow me to listen to a lot of what he's doing now I'm sure he still supports family integration.

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There's also a film that came out that was called divided divided and divided talked about the history of youth groups and how they began and and the history of Sunday school and how it began and What did you think about divided when you saw it

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I'm thinking back to it trying to remember I mean, I remember watching it and I remember thinking that there were some good ideas with it

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But I also thought it maybe carried it a little bit too far Yeah, I remember when

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I first watched divided I felt like Some of the arguments that were being made weren't necessarily biblical arguments

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It was like they had a foredrawn conclusion and they were just drawing, you know And making their arguments based on their already drew foredrawn conclusion and that that's something you have to be careful of with any movement is people who are

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Automatically They are they already have their decision made and now they're just gonna find whatever goes along with that decision

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And and and again, I'm not this is nothing against the people who made divided and I would recommend people to watch it

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There's good information in it. I'm not saying it's a bad movie. I just remember watching it thinking it didn't feel very balanced

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It didn't feel very fair Because I because I do want to say I do think that there are

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Very good people who do youth ministry. There are very good people who do Children's ministry and I do think there can be a place for those things

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In fact, I just interviewed a few weeks ago on my show Greg steer who does dare to share ministries and that is a youth

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Oriented ministry and I think I think Greg is a great guy and I think he's sharing the gospel and I think he cares about people's souls

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So this is in no way intended to say that it can't be done and it can't be done Well, and I think that's where anytime there's a belief or an idea

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We tend to divide and set up camps and say oh, well, they're they're on the other side Therefore they're wrong or they're evil or something like that.

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And I think that's the the negative But like I said, I would still encourage people to watch divided learn what's in it

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But but I I just remember having some mixed feelings and I think you can watch it and apply

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Truths to your church. I mean where like you said in the beginning, it's not You have to do it this way this exact way.

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It's Yeah, learn learn. Yeah As they say the old saying goes that it's kind of cheesy, but right you eat the meat and spit out the bones, right?

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So you can do that for sure so when we Became family integrated and again, it was a process.

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Do you remember what the initial reactions were? More shock and I remember some of the parents being very upset

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By it there was some negativity It was strange because at that time it was like I heard a lot of cheering and a lot of excited

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People like especially some of the newer members that were coming to church that had come from a family integrated

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Type environment or came because they wanted family integration Some people had come I remember some friends of ours had come from a church where they felt like their children weren't allowed in the sanctuary

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Yeah, and so when they came to us they were excited that they were yeah. Yeah, and then

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I heard the voices of Some you know other members that were upset more upset. Yeah.

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Yeah, and and and and again, this is 13 years ago 12 years ago However long ago it was huh?

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It's a little foggy Yeah, it's a little foggy. But there I just remember very specifically. I preached a sermon and Again nobody's perfect right and I and and not everything

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I've ever said from the pulpit has been perfect and I've repented many times of Things that I've said that were wrong. So I want to say this right away.

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I preached a sermon I was excoriated for it, and I probably did have some things in it that were uncharitable to people who disagree and So looking back with a few more years of wisdom

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I'd like to think wisdom With a few more years of wisdom

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I look back and I say, okay. Yeah. Well I could have done that better I could have handled I could have been more gracious.

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I could have been more I could have been more charitable towards those who disagree and so there was some difficulty there and and one of the things that was was, you know, not a not necessarily an unfair accusation even though It was a little hard to hear people like well, you were a youth pastor not you but me

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They were saying you're you you were a youth pastor Therefore you're a hypocrite because you're now saying that youth ministry is not good and you were a youth pastor therefore you're saying you were wrong and in a sense

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I was Because you remember when we were working with the youth and I was the youth pastor a lot of the things that I did weren't

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Gospel centered. No I'm able to look back now at where I was at 24 years old

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Leading a youth ministry and I had no idea what I was doing and I wasn't doing it very well

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And the the youth ministry was larger because I had a fun personality

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But it wasn't really gospel centered I mean, I worked hard and I learned as I was going to seminary and and things like that But I know

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I know my own failures and what I was doing then But anyhow, I just just I remember this transition was very hard.

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Honestly the way I think when I look back it was like We were doing like youth some youth group games and sort of a big

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Eva style Yeah trying to reign that into the theology shifted

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We didn't have room for that stuff anymore, but we still had relationships We were still building relationships and we still have them now.

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I mean we'll talk about what the way it is now. Yeah. Yeah And you know, it's funny.

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I recently found some notes from a That I had kept from years ago when we were kind of going through a struggling time and and a lot of times

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I keep Up with things. I just sort of journal my ideas or thoughts and I found a journal that we had

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Or that I had written which was and it included an interaction that I had with someone about family integration

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And it was there was a lot of negativity in that conversation and I looking back at it now reading it now

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I may have approached that differently now than I did then Not not any less convinced that what we were doing was right but maybe just a little more gracious and and how

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I would have how I would have approached it because You know Once we finally pulled the trigger we quit cold turkey.

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Yeah, as I said, we transitioned the first transition was Oh We stopped

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Children's Church But then eventually it was no youth group. No Children's Church.

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No Sunday school, man We did that for a while there was it was you know, none of that now There was a Sunday school class, but it was an adult class and kids could go in with their parents

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But it wasn't there wasn't any age graded Sunday school. There was no youth group. There was no nothing and Stopping that kind of quitting cold turkey like that Some people were upset and I remember very specifically a family that Wanted their son to go to a youth group or not a youth group.

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I'm sorry a Children's Church They wanted him to go to Children's Church during church and when we stopped having it

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They were they were quite upset with what was going on. And again, I'm not saying they were wrong I'm saying that this this was what we dealt with in making this transition and You know, but but as you said already we had people coming into the church who were looking for that So it was like we had some people who were in the church who were already wanting that and I will make name one

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Name here Byron Starkweather. He was one of our elders and He's no longer with us. He's in Tennessee now.

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He moved up there But when he came to the church, he said my son's not going to Children's Church My son's gonna sit here and worship with me and his son was little

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Stephen at that point was young He's huge now, but Stephen was a little boy at that time.

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And he said my son's not gonna go to Children's Church. Okay, great and Then You know, there were kids going to Church there weren't kids going to Church but when we brought everybody together and brought everybody in to to the service and eliminated

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Children's Church There were a few people who were upset but then people started coming who wanted that So again, just kind of I know we're sort of repeating ourself at this point, but that's how the that's how that transition happened

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You can I mention something? Yeah over the years since that time. It's been amazing that you get

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I Mean several I I don't know how many you have but where are the children, you know?

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they're drawing maybe while they're listening and I mean you get the text of the sermon you get pictures of you like You know preaching you get

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Questions, you know from from the youth. I mean they're far more capable than maybe what you May think

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I mean even our own children now I mean The things that they are able to talk about and they remember the text they can show me in the

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Bible where it is They can ask questions that go along with the sermon that they wouldn't get if they were

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I mean So I see the other side of it also as a yeah in a minute We're gonna talk about some of the benefits, but right away just what you just said

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I can't tell you how many times young kids have come up to me after service and have handed me a piece of paper that where they had written out the entire text that I had preached or they had drawn pictures of the screens because I put my word

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I put the words of the text on the screen and sometimes I'll have my outline on the screen and they will have written the outline of the screens or Some of them draw a picture of me

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Which is just you know, usually a square box for the pulpit and a big bearded man behind the pulpit and which is nice But yeah, it's amazing what

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We see now. Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say over the years even though it was polarizing in the beginning

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It wasn't polarizing long. No the people who wanted it. It was it was just good people who were not comfortable with it some of them got comfortable with it and figured it out and it worked out and You know, there were some people who were just really unhappy.

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I don't remember if we lost anyone over it. I Don't think so. But you know,

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I could be wrong again. We're talking years and years ago It was polarizing for a bit But then over the years things normalized and it just became who we were it wasn't a debate anymore

25:19

No, in fact, it became we put it on our website It says on our website, you know family integrated

25:27

When brother Collier came to the church He that was one of the things that he was looking for.

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He's one of our elders now He was he told me and he's looking for a reformed church Baptist Church and a church that was that was family

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Integrated and it's worship that it that it wasn't You know youth youth groups and all that stuff.

25:45

He wanted the kids and with him when in worship so these are things that are all I remember these conversations and it was part of what people knew us for and That's that's good.

25:57

That's not why we did it, but it did drive sort of Sort of defined us in a sense as to we we're focused on having the family together in worship not because we don't want to have a children's church leader not because we don't want to have

26:12

Some not because we don't have people who could do that But because that's not our goal, right?

26:17

Yeah, the most the high point of our service is listening to the word So, I mean we want vault, you know, the vault volunteer children's church leader.

26:25

We've had Everybody want the entire family to sit under the preaching your expositional

26:32

Preaching. Yeah, absolutely One of the things early on we did start noticing the need for though And this is gonna lead us into a little bit the next part of the conversation was the need for a nursery

26:44

Because lots of family integrated churches still recognize the need to offer some type of help to parents at a very very young age and our nursery is

26:56

Birth to three years old and that sort of the four -year -old is when we start saying, okay Let's start bringing him in the sanctuary start teaching him or her how to sit

27:05

Deal with them discipline if there are discipline issues, you know, here's some ways you can do that, you know, and but you know

27:14

We've had we've sort of struggled a little bit with our nursery trying to figure out the best way to do it

27:21

Because like with us we don't Even earlier than three. We really don't want to put our kids in the nursery if we don't have to so like with Theo You you know, yeah, he's only 15 months now

27:36

But I try to get through at least the music with them until we're in the nursery Yeah, you keep them in there as long as possible.

27:44

Yeah every week. It's the goal is a little bit longer. Mm -hmm And and if we go back to our other our other ones, obviously we have two children who were

27:54

Adopted that they didn't they came to us at four and six years old. So we didn't go through this with them but from hope and and and JJ and faith each of them same thing, right?

28:05

They were little and we had to struggle through the nursery period So there is a time early on where parents have to struggle with how they're gonna do that Are they gonna you make use of the nursery service of the church at the service if the church has that?

28:17

Or are they going to try to as you do sort of struggle with you know? Having them as long as you can as long as we're not, you know

28:24

Cuz we don't the other thing we don't want to be a distraction. No You know, we don't want our children to distract others, but but I will say this about that real quick one of the one of the things as a pastor one of the

28:39

Encouraging things sometimes is to hear little voices in the sanctuary, you know there's nothing that says the sanctuary has to be this cold and sterile and You know silent place, you know

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If you hear a child make a noise Or if you hear someone a child cry or something that that that might can throw us off for a second and that might can

29:00

Distract us but at the end of the day that shows life that shows that the church is you know

29:06

It's growing by the most natural means possible. We're going through through our children and so you know,

29:14

I We've been to churches that have I think a useful tool and that's a cry room.

29:21

Yeah Yeah, I mean you've you have used it and we've gone out. Yeah We don't have one at our church and it's it's at this point

29:29

It's not a it's not an impossibility that we may one day It's just not something that we have pulled the trigger on, you know, we've been doing some construction things recently

29:37

A cry room is a possibility at some point, but basically if you don't know what that is it's a room where you're still in the sanctuary, but you're separated by glass and soundproofing and so a person can take their child in there and some people call it some churches call it training rooms and because you're still you still want to feel like part of the worship service whereas instead of going away to a distant room where You're in a nursery where you're separated.

30:02

You're actually still in the sanctuary you're just behind a behind a wall that that allows you to still be visibly present and you hear through the speakers and That's again.

30:12

They sometimes call it a cry room or a Training room there. I think there's one at Ligonier, isn't there?

30:18

Yeah, there was or not Ligonier. What's it called? St. Andrews St. Andrews Chapel, which is RC Sproul's.

30:23

Well, it was RC Sproul's church before he passed and When we go there, we usually sit near the cry room, right?

30:30

So you can just step over if Theo is crying you just step over there still feels like you're part of the service

30:36

But you're not it's private. Yeah, you're private and Again you because we you know, you don't want to be overly distracting and you understand that and so you know in the video when we made the little video of The the person saying, you know, the pastor doesn't like distractions

30:55

We realize there are times where children are are distracting that can happen

31:00

And so we take the child out if they're distracting and we bring them back in, you know

31:06

We you know if there's discipline that needs to be done or maybe calming them down or whatever, you know, depending on their age

31:12

You know if it's a if it's a you know An older child there may be like with ours if our you know If if hope or JJ or acting out in church

31:20

They're gonna be disciplined because they're old enough to know better at this point and even faith. So it just depends on the child and so With that in mind

31:33

I want to Very quickly. I want to say here. Here's our structure.

31:39

I wrote this out just say Here's the way that our church is set up and this is not in any way to say this is the model or this is

31:45

The right way or this is what you should be doing. But if somebody said well what sovereign grace look like, okay Currently, we do have age graded

31:52

Sunday school. So even though we're family integrated worship. We still have age graded

31:57

Sunday school We aren't opposed to youth specific events and that's usually

32:03

Centered around the Sunday school like we had a youth Christmas party But it was the Sunday school Christmas party because all the younger

32:09

Sunday school classes went together We're not opposed to we're not even necessarily opposed to youth group meetings.

32:16

We had for a while something called young disciples So, you know again, this is we're looking at this 10 years later 12 years later

32:23

This is what we have learned and seen and these things are okay They're fine, they're not hurting anything as long as we're not the big thing that we want to make sure is that the

32:37

Lords they worship the family is together and because that has been the norm of Church history.

32:45

I mean think about the benefit and this is something I want you to consider if you're listening to this

32:50

Think about the benefit of a child sitting in church Looking at dad looking at mom worshiping side -by -side with them seeing that happen and Growing up where that's the norm

33:09

Where I'm worshiping beside mom and dad. I see dad holding his hymnal singing

33:14

Hymnal, sorry We have a screen looking gazing at this looking at the screen and singing

33:19

We see mom and dad holding their Bibles and that we do encourage people to hold their

33:24

Bibles and We see them turning the page and following the pastor's sermon We see that the child is seeing this and it is encouraging their participation within the body one thing that I heard

33:38

Vodi say and I've heard other people say and I've said it myself is that sometimes churches

33:47

So divide the body That if a person grows up in the church, they never they never graduate to church because they're always in some other part of church so they start out in nursery and then they go to children's church and then they go to Youth church and then they go to the young adults and then they go to young marrieds

34:06

But they're never they never feel like they're part of the body family integration has this idea where you're you're you're

34:17

Encouraging their participation in the body from the beginning yeah, and So that that's the if somebody said that what's your reasoning?

34:28

I want my children to be in worship as as early as they can and this may be a side note to what you're saying also, but I think it's important for parents unless there's illness or sickness or The occasional you know going out of town or something some reason like that But you need to bring it be in church every week doing that because I think if your children also see

34:51

Well, we only go once or twice a month or we're not sure when the next time I mean on the Lord's Day Your family needs to be there and worship.

35:00

Yeah, it's consistency. Yeah It's harder to be consistent. If you're not always if you're not there, it's more difficult to train your small children that way, too

35:09

Absolutely, that's a very good point So I want to bring up some objections. I have heard against family integration.

35:15

I want to hear your thoughts I'm gonna give my thoughts But these are objections that I have been told directly or that I've read or had people give first objection is well kids

35:25

Don't understand They understand a lot more than you think they do. I mean even at the youngest

35:32

That that I would that's exactly right. Some people say you have to bring it down to their level

35:39

Not always children are amazing at being able to pick up and and and discern and understand things that we don't

35:47

Normally think that they could or would so right away the idea that the children are not going to understand

35:55

Not not always now there are things where when I'm preaching I do assume there are some things that may go over the head of some children

36:03

There are some things that I preach that may go over the heads of some adults That's just the reality of you know, when

36:10

I'm preaching I have to consider You know what? I'm saying. And am I am I being clear and sometimes

36:16

I'll even say did that make sense? Yeah, you know And I'm not saying that because I don't think it made sense

36:21

But because I'm looking out and sometimes I see these, you know, like deer in headlights, you know people Okay, look,

36:26

I feel like that didn't make sense. Did that make sense like the time? I'm preaching and I made an illustration about the world being round and I said something about that About east and west east and west and north and south and one of the older men in the church

36:46

Turned to his friend who's sitting next to him there in the second row and he goes I didn't understand that at all out loud

36:55

And it's so got my I stopped and I said I said did you you didn't understand that at all? Understanding is nope, not a clue

37:04

So it doesn't have to be just young people who won't understand it that's you know I understand that's my job is to is to seek to clearly

37:13

Present the Word of God to the people of God. And so that's that's my job another thing I mean when you're talking to the same audience,

37:20

I mean some are regenerate some are unregenerate. We don't we don't know That's right. I mean, I think there are regenerate children that are in There could be you know in our audience that through the spirit,

37:30

I mean they're able to do things that the Spirit of God is the teacher So the second thing they'll say kids don't understand the second thing kids with kids will be bored

37:41

Boyd adults That guy's playing

37:55

Gallica you didn't think we noticed but we did Okay, there's my my

38:02

Avengers reference Okay, so bored What are your thoughts on that though?

38:11

That shouldn't be the reason. No, I mean, come on. I mean, really, they're bored at school.

38:19

I mean, they're bored. But, okay, this is... Number one,

38:24

I mean, I think you could say that about the adults. You could apply that same standard because some people are there. They're not there to worship

38:30

God or glorify God. They're there because maybe their wife or their husband dragged them to be there. They're not there for the right reason.

38:37

I mean, same for children. I mean, we bring them to church. They don't always want to go.

38:44

Well, anyway, that might be, but that's not a good enough objection. Yeah, and I would say this, how to alleviate that.

38:52

If you have children in church and you're concerned with them being bored, sit closer because the further you are away,

39:00

I think sometimes it can feel disengaging. Help your children turn to Bible passages, right?

39:07

Stand up. Encourage them to stand up. Sing along. Help them to overcome that inhibition of fear of singing in public, right?

39:15

I was very thankful last week. I was sitting in the back because Brother Adam was leading the music.

39:22

So I was sitting in the back during the music, and I could hear J .J. singing. So that's encouraging to me. I hear my son sing because he's been in church.

39:30

He knows that's what we do. Yeah, so as far as boredom, yeah,

39:36

I think you can help overcome that. And also through family worship time and other times, reading the

39:44

Bible because anybody that I think says the Bible is boring, maybe that's the implication,

39:50

I don't know, hasn't read the Bible. I think there could be some boring preachers out there, but hopefully that's not me.

39:59

I don't want to be boring. Not at all. The third thing that I hear people say, well, kids need to be taught on their level.

40:06

I know this is all sort of the same thing but just different ways. Well, kids need to be taught on their level. What do you think? Eh. Well, again,

40:15

I think the argument there goes back to what we've already said. Kids can learn more than we think they can.

40:21

We can raise the level. I was told in seminary that you shouldn't teach above a middle school level.

40:28

And I have spent the last 20 years just seeking to repudiate that because I think that most of the people in our church graduated high school.

40:39

Many of them went to college. There's no reason why we have to dumb things down. No. But we do try to explain things clearly, take in difficult concepts and bring them to a digestible.

40:53

More than once I've had JJ ask, like, I didn't understand when Daddy said this. What does this mean?

40:59

Isn't that a beautiful question? I mean, it gives you an opportunity to talk to them about it.

41:05

Absolutely. I mean, there have been times, honestly, where I've been like, I don't understand what you're saying. I didn't know what you said either.

41:12

You or that one guy. I ain't got a clue. That's my bad.

41:18

What about this one? Kids distract others. I mean, that would, again, go like what?

41:26

I mean, I would want to push back to that. Like, what kids? You know, I mean, I don't think any parent,

41:31

I mean, as a mom of a toddler, I mean, if he starts to cry or starts to wail or scream any of his shenanigans,

41:40

I mean, I'm grabbing him with a trail of Cheerios, like, while I'm walking out.

41:47

At one year old, does he have shenanigans? Total depravity, man. It's a real thing.

41:53

So, I mean, we're trying to make our way out, and, I mean, if we distract anyone, we're not intending to, we're trying to.

42:02

So, I mean, I don't know anybody that just lets their kid just continuously scream.

42:08

We have a special needs daughter also, and it's the same thing. And it was a struggle with her.

42:14

That's a good point. I'll throw that out there. We have a daughter with autism, and she is high on the spectrum.

42:21

She's very intelligent, but when she was younger, it was hard for her. And even now, she stems.

42:28

Had a funny moment in Sunday school last week. Brother Mike's teaching, and he's writing on the board, and I'm sitting next to her, and Brother Mike erases the board, and he leaves a little mark that was like a

42:38

G. They left the bottom of the G hanging, and she just got it without warning, gets up, walks over the board, erases it, and he just stops.

42:47

We all laughed, because we're like, and I'm like, I'm... She's like,

42:52

I can't handle that. She had a little touch of OCD, like, you're going to erase that board, you're going to erase the whole board.

43:00

You're going to leave a part of it out. What about this one? This is, because I'm with you.

43:07

I think, yes. Explain more. What do you mean? Yeah, when people say, well, kids are a distraction, they can be.

43:15

But this is why we encourage the parents to do whatever is needful to help them be less of a distraction.

43:24

But I love this, and I want to mention this. When I went to the Fight, Laugh, Feast conference with the guys from CrossPolitic this last year, man, there was kids all over that place.

43:37

They invited kids into the worship area. It was the auditorium at the ARC exhibit, and there were kids everywhere.

43:44

And every once in a while, you'd hear a toy squeak. Every once in a while, you'd hear something drop. Every once in a while. But overall, it was a wonderful experience.

43:52

And I saw people brought their pack and play. I was like, that's genius, right?

43:59

And so, I mean, I just loved it. It's wonderful. They're welcome. Yeah, and they said that from the beginning.

44:06

We know kids make noise. We know that happens. It's okay. If you have to deal with it, if there's something that gets overly distracting, you know, do something.

44:19

But don't feel like you are, you know, being a burden on other people.

44:26

We all know we're all doing our best, right? Right. So the most difficult thing, and I thought we'd talk about this for a minute.

44:36

The most difficult issue that I have, as a pastor, felt like we've dealt with in a family -integrated church is the subject of single parents who legitimately need help.

44:47

Yeah. If you figure a single, for whatever reason they're single, you know, whether it's a person who's had a spouse die or gone through a divorce or whatever, doesn't matter.

44:56

They're in a situation where they don't have a person coming to church with them. Or even if a person is married but the other person doesn't come to church and they want to bring their kids.

45:07

And sometimes they may have a smaller child that is a little more rambunctious and a little harder to deal with.

45:13

And so that has been, I think, the most difficult thing because, you know, in some churches it would just be, well, send them to the children's church and you don't have to worry about it.

45:23

And now you get to rest. You get to take a break. But in a church like ours, there's more of a responsibility on the parent either to have the child sit with them or to carry them out if the child is acting up.

45:37

And if the child is acting up, then they're missing part of the service. Yeah. And they think to themselves, well, why do

45:43

I even come? I mean, I'm just, you know, from their perspective, right? Why do I even come if I have to just stand out in the lobby or whatever because I can't get the child to behave?

45:55

So I think, I want to hear your thoughts. I have been there on that. Well, I have two thoughts on that.

46:01

Like for a little bit older of a child, maybe three and up, four and up, I am basically on Sunday morning like a single mom because you were preaching and you can't help me with disciplining the kids.

46:15

That's hard to hear. I know what you mean. And I have an older daughter too that is my right hand.

46:21

She helps me. I am very thankful for Ashley. She's, you know. But it just hurts.

46:27

I mean, I know what you mean and I know we've said that before. No, no, I know you're not trying to hurt me. But in that sense,

46:33

I, you know, being up there. You've given some looks from the pulpit. And I've called our kids out from the pulpit. J .J.,

46:38

stop. And they're like, hmm, you going to call me out next? Adults be like, hmm, the pastor is getting serious.

46:47

So, yeah, I know what you mean, though. It didn't hurt my feelings. I was just saying it was I wish that as a pastor, there are times where I wish we just experienced that where I'm standing next to you with the kids between us.

47:02

I love that when we go out of town. That is right. That is the blessing. Yeah. So you said you had two things.

47:09

Yeah. Okay, so on Sunday morning, you know, you're preaching.

47:15

I'm, you know, with our children trying to manage them. And one thing that's been beneficial to me is to grab a, usually, we have a couple of larger families at church, and I'll ask a teenager to come sit with us or maybe a grandparent to come sit with us or have someone with us.

47:36

So if I have to take one child out, the others are still there and have someone to be there.

47:43

Yeah, and that was actually what I was going to say, is I think the issue is solved through community.

47:52

Yes. So that's where I was going about the single parent, having that friend come alongside of you or that, yeah, we're in community as a church.

48:03

So to have that, so if they need to go, you know, take care of their child or if they want a model, like maybe what it looks like in a different home.

48:13

I mean, we're all there together with the same. And this is where the benefit of having grandparent -like figures in the church who can help or parents who have other children who might can, like there was a week or two ago where you got called to help a family that had a baby and they needed you to come sit with their kids at their house.

48:32

So it was me and our kids at the church and Ashley wasn't there. So what

48:37

I did was I put our kids with other people who were willing to let them sit. Now, I wasn't dealing with the baby, but I was dealing with Hope and JJ.

48:49

And so I put them with, no, Faith was with mom. But yeah, but still, I mean, same,

48:55

I would have put her with Papa. And the one good thing, you know, we do have my dad and mom, dad and stepmom are in the church.

49:01

So yeah, okay. But yes, community effort helps. And our kids, especially our two older kids,

49:09

I mean, church is full. Like we call them aunts and uncles. And I mean, they still refer and Kelly and Sharon and Chrissy.

49:18

Like we have a community of, I really, I feel that way. I mean, I have my blood family and I have my church family.

49:26

Absolutely. And so a single parent coming to a church that's family integrated, it may be a little tough in the beginning. But once you learn the people, once you get to know people, once you realize that you're part of a community, there are people there to help you.

49:39

Yes. And we want to help you because we want to make you feel like you're part of the body. And your children are part of the body.

49:45

Yeah. Or at least part of the worship, part of the people who are worshiping.

49:51

All right. So my final thoughts are this, and then

49:57

I'm going to get, if you have any final thoughts, does a church have to be family integrated? No.

50:03

I was going to say the answer is no. A church doesn't have to be family integrated. But I think any church that bans children from the sanctuary has a misplaced priority.

50:16

Yeah. And that's where that video stemmed from. We are family integrated because we think it's the best way.

50:22

And we do recognize there are things that we have to deal with. And we talked about them through today's show.

50:28

But we think it has a value for the child. We think it has a value for the parent. So we think that there's value here.

50:35

If another church doesn't do it the way we do, we're not saying, you know, we're not condemning them. They don't have to do it our way.

50:41

But this is the way we're doing it, and we're going to seek to do it to the glory of God. But I do have an issue with any church that would say your child is banned from the sanctuary.

50:50

And if I can add this in, just a couple final thoughts, too. Like 2 Timothy 3, you know, 16, you know, about all

50:59

Scripture being God -breathed. I mean, you, my husband preached through the book of Genesis.

51:05

I mean, there are times, I mean, there are, I can think of a couple of the different narratives in there that you preached that are not

51:14

G -rated. Yeah. You know, I mean, you're preaching it to all, but I mean, can you do that with God's Word?

51:21

I mean, it's, you're preaching Word verse by verse, explaining the meaning of all the texts.

51:28

I mean, everybody needs to hear that. I remember using the phrase coitus interruptus. Look that up. Anon. I remember that week, and I was like,

51:40

I hope my very inquisitive 8 -year -old son doesn't ask me questions. What is coitus interruptus?

51:46

Go talk to your dad. So there are times, right? And some people bring that up. They say that's a reason for not having children there.

51:53

But it's not. And that's why, you know, the parent has to be the one to consider.

51:59

I mean, the good thing about our church is people know what I'm preaching on because I'm preaching through books. So they can read ahead, and they know what's coming.

52:07

And so they may want to consider how they're going to handle that and know this, that I know there's children in the room too.

52:15

So I'm considering that. I'm trying to teach to everyone and to keep that in mind as I'm teaching.

52:22

And I'd just like to say, if you're listening to this and you're a parent of a small child, because I know from experience with my other small children and my current, my 15 -month -old now, every week it's very difficult because I think, wow, you know, if I stay home,

52:39

I have all of this real time, real talk. You know, it's difficult every week because it's a lot of in and out of the sanctuary.

52:50

It's, I'm taking care of him.

52:55

I'm trying to listen to my phone or listen to the, you know, screen. But I just feel like we're honoring

53:01

God by coming and by being there. And I feel like he sees us. He's not distant, not far away.

53:08

I mean, he knows. And we're training. This is just a very small window. Eventually, it's like when you're training them to sleep, eventually they will sleep through the night.

53:17

Well, eventually your children will be able to sit through the whole worship service. Boy, that's a great illustration. Because at first, your children don't sleep through the night.

53:24

And at first, they may not sit through the worship service. Boy, that was a good thought. Keep working.

53:30

Keep trying. Keep, I have a lot of ideas. You can reach out, you know, different things over the years that we've done and tried.

53:39

But I just, mama, don't give up on it. Let me say this right now.

53:45

If you have a question about family integration, or you have a question directly to ask Jennifer, if you're a mom, maybe, and this is something that you struggle with, and you want to know some ways that have helped us, things like bringing them writing utensils and books and things that have helped them, have really helped

54:04

Hope. Fidget spinners. Fidget spinners, whatever, right? The things that help them, those things that aren't distractions but are helpful for them.

54:14

If you want to contact us, you can contact us at calvinispodcasts at gmail .com.

54:19

And if your question is directed towards Jennifer, just put that in the attention. Say, attention,

54:25

Jennifer, and I will make sure she gets the email and either write you back or we may do a follow -up and respond.

54:32

If we get enough interest, we'll be happy to do another follow -up video. Well, I want to thank you again for being the most lovely of all of my podcast guests.

54:42

And, of course, I want to thank you for all that you do for our family, allowing the children to be in the worship service and caring for them.

54:52

And honestly, being the one who has had to teach and discipline them as I've been up preaching and leading music and things,

54:58

I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful for what you do and thankful for just the mother that you are.

55:09

So I love you, and I thank you. So again, thank you for being part of Your Calvinist Podcast today. If you enjoyed this show, please hit the thumbs -up button.

55:16

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55:24

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55:37

Thank you again for listening to Your Calvinist Podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your