Jesus in the Bible and the Qur'an Part 2

Well thank you very much. I would like to respond specifically to a couple of the statements that were made and the questions that were asked of me.

How do we connect with God was the question that was asked. Well faith has always been the mechanism whereby we connect with God.

And that includes those who came before Jesus. Was there a way to connect with God before Jesus was born?

Were those people forgiven? The biblical answer is yes. In Paul's epistle to the Romans, chapter 3, we are told that apart from the law, the righteousness of God, which is attested by the law of the prophets, has been disclosed, namely the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

There is no distinction. For all who sin, we call sure the glory of God. But we are justified freely by His grace.

The redemption is in Christ Jesus. God publicly displayed Him as the perpetuatory sacrifice through faith.

This was to demonstrate His righteousness because God, and here is the answer to the question, in His forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

This was also to demonstrate His righteousness in the present time so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness.

How is Moses accepted before God? Because of his faith in the promises that Yahweh had given.

How was David made right before God? Because of his faith in the promises that Yahweh had given.

But Yahweh has now entered into His own creation in His Son. And that is why

Jesus then clearly makes the statement, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

It has always been faith in God's promises. In the old days it was God's prophetic promises, the coming of that Messiah and His faithfulness as the creator

God. Now that He has entered into His creation, can you imagine? Just think with me for a moment, if you can get past any kind of problem in your mind.

Why do you believe that God cannot enter into His own creation? He created it.

If it was His purpose to enter into it to demonstrate His love for a particular people, how is that beyond God's capacity?

I don't believe it's beyond God's capacity. And so if He has entered into His own creation, if Jesus is who the

New Testament says He is, could there be any other way of salvation?

If God had provided in Himself the means of a perfect relationship with Him.

You see, the Bible tells us that we are dead by trespasses. It says that there is none righteous, no not one.

And outside of the grace of God changing our hearts, raising us to spiritual life, we could continue in our rebellion against God.

And I think everyone in this room knows, if you will examine your heart, you know that rebellion that is there.

And you know that outside of the grace of God, outside of God's working in that way, there would be no hope.

We cannot pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. We do not make ourselves righteous and therefore earn

God's acceptance. The only way is by faith in the promises of God.

And the promise that God has given now is that everyone who names the name of Jesus Christ will be saved.

They will find Him to be a perfect and complete Savior. There has never been a single person who has ever fled to Jesus Christ for salvation and has found

Him to be anything other than a perfect source of peace with God. Romans chapter 5 verse 1 says, therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God.

You know what that word peace is. In the Greek it's Irenae, but of course Paul was a Jewish person, so we know that's

Shalom. And that is a Semitic root. And you know what that Semitic root is.

Shalom, peace. Salam, peace. We have peace but in only one way.

Having been justified by faith we have peace with God. True peace with God.

Not a fear, have I done enough? Will I find God to be unmerciful to me on the day of judgment?

Did I say enough prayers? Did I do enough pilgrimages? The Christian has peace with God because I did not stand clothed in my own righteousness.

I have received the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect life.

He loved God perfectly. His righteousness imputed to me my sins He bears upon Calvary's tree.

That is how we are connected to God. That is how we have peace with God. That is the message of the

New Testament. Thank you. I haven't said anything to Bilal Khandar Abdul Malik but I'm going to make a very short response and then

I'm going to ask him to raise some of the questions that he shared with me during the break.

Now, going back to the question of salvation, we are told that Jesus knew

God totally and completely. And Jesus knew how to connect with Him.

And the point that I have been making throughout my presentation is that the prophets not only know

God, not only know how to connect with God, they are there to guide their followers as to how they need to know

God and how they need to connect with God. There is absolutely no room for this idea that if you believe that your prophet knows

God very well and your prophet is living the guidance of God very well, you just put your trust and faith in that prophet and you keep doing whatever you do and you just say that here is my savior.

The Quran does not buy into this idea. When we are talking about the

Quran, the Quran is very clear for all the prophets including

Jesus that they were given the understanding of how they need to recognize

God, how they need to discover God in their life and how they need to live their life based on the guidance and then enable their followers.

And this is exactly what Jesus was doing with His disciples. He was sharing with them the knowledge of God that He had and He was enabling them to live the life of a believer.

Jesus, based on the Quran, never said to anyone that if you have this idea that I am your redeemer,

I am the salvation and you don't have to worry anything else besides that, you will be redeemed and you will find salvation.

The Quran does not buy into that way of looking at salvation and looking at righteousness.

The Quran is very clear that every day of your life, in fact every moment of your life, if you are aware of your relationship with God and you engage in actions that are consistent with the understanding of your

God, that is the way for you to live your life. And in that process, if you make mistakes, if you commit sins, if you are making errors, then you turn to God asking for forgiveness.

You don't turn to anybody else. This entire relationship with God is very clear as far as the

Quran is concerned. So to believe that there is someone who is going to guarantee your salvation is a very erroneous notion.

So that's what I would say. And, I'm sorry, I don't want to get into the idea that what, for example,

Professor White interprets to be the word of the Bible is something that is universally accepted by the

Christians themselves. Within the Christian traditions, as he himself pointed out, there are very different interpretations of many different things.

So we have to keep that in mind as well. Okay, this is really where I think that a dialogue and discussion takes place, is that we can have this kind of personal interaction.

And I admit, these backpacks are very, very careful. I'll just sort of back up a bit.

You had just indicated that there are various interpretations amongst

Christians on these issues. And yet, has it not in your experience been that a belief in the death, birth, and resurrection of Jesus and the deity of Christ is what unifies all

Christian groups other than groups like Jehovah's Witnesses or something like that, which purposefully separate themselves off?

Isn't that really the central proclamation of Christianity? Okay, they do have that common theme.

But in terms of what role does it play in salvation and how it should inspire their living in this, you know, worldly life, they all have different ways of looking at it.

Well, even here this evening, we have at least, and I don't want to embarrass you, but do we have any

Shia Muslims with us this evening? Any Shia experience here? Not that you want to say so, okay.

We have at least three different groups of Muslims who disagree on some very fundamental issues.

You would probably agree with me that does not in and of itself reflect on the clarity of the Qur 'an, does it?

No, it doesn't. So, if there are differences amongst Christians, that would not in and of itself reflect upon the clarity of the text that I was looking at.

Would you agree with that? Yeah, I agree with that. Okay, all right. Okay, now, that's where the

Qur 'an says that even in terms of your reading the

Qur 'an and your understanding the Qur 'an and your interpretation of the Qur 'an, there are matters that you will never be able to resolve in this world, and they will ultimately be judged by God.

And that is also true when it comes to Christian Muslim religions. That's where the verses from the

Qur 'an where you have pointed out that God will be the final judge between these differences that we have as Christians and Muslims, and differences that people will have within each faith tradition.

For example, if there are Ahmadiyyas sitting here, if there are Shias sitting here, if there is another group like Baha 'is sitting here, and they are saying that this is not what the

Qur 'an says, and I'm saying that this is what the Qur 'an says, very clearly, we acknowledge these differences, but the matter is not referred to the ultimate judge, that is

God. Would you say, however, that the Qur 'an is very clear in the early

Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God, as an excess, as something that is a last name in Allah's sight?

Yes, the Qur 'an is very clear about that, and the Qur 'an stands by its assertion. And that's where the

Muslims can't resolve this, because the Muslims take the position that has been spelled out to them in the

Qur 'an. So we are referring to a matter ultimately to God. He will be our judge as to who was telling the truth, because none of us were present when these things were happening.

So there has to be, this matter has to be resolved, and God says that not everything is going to be resolved in this world.

There will be a final judgment for all the assertions people are making about many different things, just not about the divinity of Jesus and the crucifixion of Jesus.

The Qur 'an says very clearly that they did not crucify Jesus, they did not kill

Jesus, and there is no way for anyone of us to prove that it was the other way.

Can you understand why a Christian, looking at Surah 4, verse 157, would struggle to understand why, in light of the unanimity of all of the first century sources, that Jesus was crucified?

In fact, do you know who the Jesus Seminarians are? Have you ever seen them on TV?

John Donovan Cross was one of the co -founders, and I debated with him on the liability of the

Gospels, and one of the things he said, here is a man who is a real liberal critic of all revelations from God.

He says that one of the few facts of history that we do know for certain is that Jesus died on a cross on the

Pontius Pilate in the first century. So, can you understand why a

Christian, looking at everything that comes out of the first century that says Jesus died on a cross, would have trouble accepting something that comes 600 years later that has no direct historical connection in overthrowing the entire testimony of all of the early followers of Jesus?

The Christian will have the trouble, that's why the Qur 'an is challenging.

In spite of their troubles, the Qur 'an is making its claim, the Qur 'an is presenting its argument, and the matter is left for each one of us to look at.

That's where it's not going to be resolved between you and me, or between the Muslims and the

Christians, or within the Christian community, if they want to take certain positions at variance with each other.

But given the fact that, saying this sort of formal deceptive for just a moment, I think you'd probably agree with me, and please correct me,

I'm a student of Islam, not an expert in Islam, but my studies of that particular text, and especially the phrase, should you have it, then took.

As I understand it, there is no Hadith tradition whatsoever as to what even

Muhammad understood that text to mean. And so that means that for over 200 years,

Muslims had no direct recollection of Muhammad's own interpretation of that text.

Since there are people here who interpret that text very differently than you do, you have an ambiguous text from 600 years later versus the entirety of the

Injil, which the You mentioned rationality, logic, as being something

God has created us to judge with. How can I, as a Christian, logically, rationally, take a text that is not clear, that is not believable, that is not clear and perspicuous?

How can I take a text from 600 years later and overthrow the integrity of the evidence that I intellectually recognize comes from the time, around the time of Jesus?

How can I do that? Okay. I think we have to acknowledge one thing, that there are certain things that the

Quran is making claims about. It's not that the

Quran is presently evidence for it. The crucifixion of Jesus is one such matter.

The Quran is saying that they say that they have killed

Jesus or crucified Jesus. The Quran is saying that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified.

Now, will there be a resolution of this? I believe that it's a matter of believing.

You look at the entire Quran, and you look at the entire teachings of the

Bible, and then you make a judgment saying that based on these other reasons,

I consider this source as to be more reliable as compared to that source.

You are making a judgment. But that judgment, whether it's valid or not, is not going to be decided today.

That's where God says in the Quran that on the Day of Judgment, on the

Day of Judgment, these matters will be decided. They're not going to be decided here.

Real briefly, I did not read my Quran up here, and I apologize. Does Surah 4,

Verse 27 actually say, they neither killed him? So, could not someone interpret that to be of the

Jews specifically? No. The Quran is making an absolute statement.

The Quran is not leaving room that somebody else, not the

Jews, but somebody else killed him, not the Jews, but somebody else crucified him.

The Quran is making a very definitive statement that they did not kill him, they did not crucify him.

When Surah 5, Verse 47 tells the Ahl al -Jil to judge by the things contained therein, when my scriptures consistently testify to me that Jesus is the

Son of God, not in the way that the Quran seems to deny it either, but that he has eternally existed as a divine person, and they do so consistently, if I am to judge these things, what confidence can you give me as a

Christian that the Quran accurately understands what the content of the

Gospels or the content of the Torah really was? Since the

Quran, in my recollection, only quotes the Bible two times, and they're both texts that would be easily quoted by memory or by voice, not by direct citation, given that the

Quran does not seem to interact with my scriptures in a documentary way, how can

I judge appropriately in light of Surah 5, Verse 47?

Okay, the Quran, you yourself pointed out that the

Prophet was not a person who had access either to the

Old or the New Testament. That's a given. That's where the

Quran makes it very clear that it's not a book written by Muhammad. The Quran is the book that has been revealed by God who knows what he revealed in the

Old Testament and what he revealed in the New Testament. And the

Quran, as a word of God, challenged both the people from the

Jewish faith and the people from the Christian faith that this is the word of God.

God knows what is the truth. And he is letting you know that this is the truth.

That they did not kill him, they did not crucify him. Now, if you insist on that,

God is making it very clear in the verses of the Quran that this matter will be judged when all this is over.

So, if this is not the words of Muhammad, I know you believe that, these are the words of Allah, then why do we have a misidentification of the doctrine of the training in Surah 5,

Verse 16? Because even if you don't believe in the training, Allah knew what it was that he done. How can you have a misidentification of the

Christian doctrine if these are only the words of Allah? In what ways are you saying it's a misidentification?

As I mentioned in 5, Verse 16, it says that we are to worship Mary and Jesus as gods in their relationship with Allah.

Christians would never do that. When the Christians worship Mary and Jesus even today.

Why is it that we have all these statues and images and people stand for Mary and Jesus and ask, you know, this thing will be...

This will be perfect because now you can begin a period of asking questions of James. Would you like to come up here because I'm feeling like I'm so much taller.

Would you like to take this? No, no. What I'm going to say is, as far as I'm concerned,

I've made my points very clearly and repeatedly. I don't plan to have any more questions of Dr.

White. If he wants to continue, you know, to shed light or ask questions further,

I give the time to him. We can go on to audience questions. Hi everyone out there.

I have a pile of questions up there. If I don't get to everyone then I won't apologize. I'll try to go to the questions that are most directly related to the topic and the shortest.

This one is for both, directed towards both. So I'll give you each about 90 seconds for a response.

Beginning with Dr. Eskos. In order to connect with God, both

Abraham and Moses taught us the need for forgiveness through sacrifice for sins. Are Muslims contradicting

Moses by preaching God without sacrifice? Well, as I understand the question,

I would agree that sacrifice was given to Moses and to David.

But I believe that that sacrifice was given to them as a picture of what was coming. The book of Hebrews in the

New Testament makes it very, very clear that those sacrifices would be fulfilled in a perfect way, in a final sacrifice that would be given by one who would transcend the blood of bulls and goats.

Of course, that becomes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It does raise one question.

I don't know if it's a matter of contradicting Moses and David as not seeing the fulfillment of Moses and David's words.

The fulfillment of Moses and David's words regarding sacrifice is seen in Jesus Christ.

They recognized that there was a need for the holiness of God to be satisfied in the punishment of sin.

And that is one of the major differences between us. The Muslim believes that the law can simply forgive a sin without his law being rectified, without his holiness and his holy standards being met.

And that is one of the fundamental differences between us. I would say that the prophets of the Old Testament are unanimous in their assertion of this necessity of a sacrifice and that that sacrifice is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ for us today.

Imam Saeed, I have the same question in the same time, about 90 seconds, on whether the

Koran is contradicting Mohammed, I mean is contradicting Moses, because Moses said that we approach

God through sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. Now, when we are talking about these sacrifices, we are assuming that all believers have the resources to offer the kind of sacrifices we have in mind.

When we take the case of a person who has no resources at all in the form of sacrifices that are conventionally given, what is the situation for that?

The Koran is not contradicting the idea of sacrifice, but the Koran is making it very clear that even when you are making those sacrifices, you have to sincerely acknowledge your mistakes.

Don't believe that simply by making a sacrifice your sins are going to be forgiven.

You have to return to God in sincerity in addition to offering the sacrifice to be forgiven.

So this idea that simple sacrifices will make up for the sins that people have committed is not valid based on the

Quranic approach. There has to be a sincere turning to God. If you could stay right there, this next question will begin with you on the next one.

How can an imperfect man obtain salvation on his own when we all come short of the way of God?

I have never said anything based on the

Quranic verses that an imperfect being can achieve this perfect salvation.

I have very clearly said that it's our imperfection that makes it necessary that in spite of our best faith and righteousness we turn to God for asking forgiveness for our shortcomings.

That's a very clear given when we are not saying that it has to be a perfect person for achieving salvation.

How can an imperfect man obtain salvation on his own when we all come short of the way of God?

The question seems to assume, I think, a biblical foundation, and that is that the holiness of God requires a perfect righteousness.

That is the message of the Bible, that only those who have a perfect righteousness will be able to stand before a holy

God. How then can we find that perfect righteousness? The message of the New Testament is that perfect righteousness is only to be found in the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is ours by faith.

We bring nothing to God. We bring an empty hand of faith. And that empty hand of faith then receives the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as the gift of eternal life.

Dr. White, if Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet, can they be saved by that belief in Jesus?

That's one of the reasons that I went to John Chapter 8. There is every part of my heart that would like to say,

Oh, I would just love to have anybody who just acknowledges Jesus to be saved. But there is a problem with that. God has a purpose in the

Gospel, and His purpose is to unite people to Himself so that they come to grow with the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ and be conformed to His image. And that's why Jesus said in John Chapter 8,

Those Jews believed Jesus was a prophet. They believed, some of them even believed that He was the Messiah. It was when

He claimed to be before Abraham, the I Am before Abraham, that they picked up stones to stone

Him. The Jews would have loved to have had a Messiah who could feed 5 ,000 from a cup of fish and some loaves of bread.

That would have been great. But the problem was Jesus wouldn't give them the kind of Messiah that they wanted.

He taught that He had come from the Father. He taught that He was the very bread of life.

And if anyone wants to have spiritual life, they need to find it only in Him. And it was that exclusivity.

It was that not allowing for other ways that was so offensive to so many people.

And so the only answer I can give is a biblical answer. No, that's not enough. Jesus said to Jews who believed that Jesus was a prophet,

You will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.

And if we love the people, then we will not compromise on that message because that is what we're called to do.

Mona Saeed, you have a brief response to what Jesus said. So the initial question was, can a

Muslim be saved when they believe in Jesus as a prophet, not as Lord? If I go back to the verses that were recited from the very beginning, the 36th verse makes it very clear that it's not by believing what

Dr. White says we need to believe in terms of Jesus.

We very clearly say that we need to believe in Jesus only as a prophet.

Nothing more, nothing less. And then says, based on what the

Quran says, referring to Jesus, and thus it was that Jesus always said,

Verily, God is my sustainer as well as your sustainer. So worship

Him and Him alone. This is the straight path. This is a good follow -up to that question.

We'll have 90 seconds. What is the meaning of salvation in the Quran? And is there a word for salvation in the

Quran? What is it? Explain, please. So is there a word for salvation? And what is salvation according to the

Quran? Okay, the word salvation, of course, is English. In Arabic, it's

Nadab. And Nadab is a very vague term.

What is more important for us to recognize is that there is a very clear reward and punishment idea that has been laid out in the

Quran. That people who live the lives of faith and righteousness will be rewarded, not only to the extent that they engage in it, but they will be given even more.

And those who refuse to listen to the guidance from God and live their lives very carelessly will face

God and they will have to face the reckoning based on whatever questions they will be asked.

It has nothing to do with believing in Jesus the way Dr. White has prescribed us.

A brief response I would like for Dr. Whiteman. Well, this certainly takes us to the issue this evening.

If the Injil that the Quran says was sent down by God makes one's relationship with God dependent upon who

Jesus Christ is and faith in him, and we are commanded to judge on the basis of that Injil, then how can we rationally hold the

Islamic position? We have an inherent contradiction. Now, from my perspective, it comes from the fact that the author of the

Quran didn't know the New Testament, thought that what he was saying was consistent with the New Testament, but it wasn't.

But the problem is, if you start with the presupposition that the Quran is the words of God, and that's not even a possibility and you never even consider that possibility, well, then you're left with a contradiction.

And that's really what the whole issue is. I've been trying to emphasize that this evening, but I'm running out of time.

Questions for you? And this is a really good one. Dr. Whiteman, if it is problematic for the

Quran to misrepresent Christian beliefs, such as including Mary in the godhead, why do you not find it equally problematic when the

New Testament misinterprets Old Testament scripture, such as Matthew 2 .15

and Hosea 11 .1, out of Injil 5 .12, my son? Hosea is obviously referring to the

Exodus, not New Breakers to Escape, Herod. There is a fundamental problem in the question, and that is not understanding or recognizing the category of errors this alleged

New Testament makes. The nature of prophecy in the New Testament, if the

New Testament cited those texts and changed them, or if the New Testament said

Isaiah prophesied and came up with something that Isaiah never ever dreamed of, then you would have a parallel, because Surah 5 .16

is making exactly that kind of argument, something Christians don't do. I understand modern

Roman Catholicism and its teachings about Mary, and I've debated them on that subject, and I'll tell you right now, even they will say they are not worshipping

Mary. I agree with you that it is completely inappropriate, but that's not what the

Christian doctrine of the Trinity ever has been. Mary has never been a part of it. The Holy Spirit is not just the angel

Gabriel. So if you had a gross misrepresentation like that, then you'd have a parallel. What you're saying is, well,

I don't think that the New Testament writer is interpreting the categories of Hosea in a grammatical, historical way, and making an exegetical argument.

And, of course, in prophecy, that's a given. Two completely different things.

One, well, I don't like the use of this particular text. Another, well, Christians believe something Christians have never ever believed.

There is no parallel between the two. Imam Saeed, would you like to respond?

The question is, Dr. White is saying that the

Quran has a problem because it misrepresents Christian belief, but is Christianity misrepresenting the

Old Testament? One thing that we need to recognize, the

Quran was revealed after the time of Jesus. And the

Quran has made references to a number of things that, according to Dr.

White, can be attributed to Indian or Gospels.

But what we know, as of now, that these Gospels were written after the time of Jesus.

And the writers of the Gospel have said whatever they have said, a considerably longer time after the time of Jesus.

So, where is it that we can assume that these Gospels were the

Word of God? When the Quran says that when Jesus was revealed, it is basically laying out a principle, not confirming that the whole

Gospel, as it has been preserved, is the Word of God. Okay, next question is for you.

Can humans live, so Islam calls us to live a righteous life, can humans live a righteous life, have faith in God, without the power of God guiding and leading that human life?

In the Quran it is very clear that you use your entire faculty of reasoning, intellect and spirituality, but ultimately your life of living righteousness is only through God's mercy and His grace.

He has to enable you to live that kind of righteous life through His mercy and grace.

It's not that you have control over it. So, in fact, when you believe in God, you are acknowledging that you are really a very, you know, weak person, and it's only through the help and guidance and strength from God that you can live the life of faith and righteousness.

And you always ask God to be with you in every time you are attempting to live that righteous life.

Great response, Dave. There is a fundamental difference between us in regards to the nature of sin and what it does to mankind.

Islamic writers have been consistent now for centuries in denying the concept of original sin and the fact that we are born as sons and daughters of Adam and we have that in our nature to rebel against God.

And so I think there is a fundamentally different view between us as to how sin affects us and whether we can, in and of ourselves, break free of its power and its authority over our lives.

Next question for you, Dr. White. Another good one here. If salvation through Jesus is the absolute truth, then why didn't the prophets before Jesus preach that, especially if the relationship between the

Father and the Son was there since the beginning? Well, while the relationship between the

Father and the Son was there from the beginning, it was not revealed until the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The Trinity is primarily revealed in the coming of Christ in flesh and pouring out of the

Holy Spirit amongst the people of God. And so, while we have some glimpses in the

Old Testament, certainly that tremendous text in Isaiah 9, a child will be born to us.

Those are the normal terms. The very same erudite root found in the third ayah of Surah 112. A child will be born to us.