Andrew Rappaport, Keith Foskey, & Greg Moore Jr. Solve All Of Your Problems


This week's episode is a little different. Greg was invited on the Rapp Report Podcast with Andrew Rappaport (@strivingforeternity6834 ) and Keith Foskey of Conversations with a Calvinist. ( @ConversationswithaCalvinist ) They recorded it and released it on all three platforms. Greg, Andrew, and Keith discussed their theological differences, church attendance, current events, New Covenant theology, as well as the actual duties of a Shepherd. Andrew also allowed Greg to do a segment of "Fresh 10" with him, and we got to learn a little more about him towards the end of the episode. Enjoy!


So it sounds like the start of a really bad joke, a Presbyterian, a Baptist, and well, all the denominations get together and walk into Buffalo Wild Wings.
My name is Andrew Rappaport. I'm the host of Andrew Rappaport. And if you're not familiar with my name, that's because you're listening to me on one of the other podcasts represented while we have a
Presbyterian here. Hey, is that my intro?
That's your intro. We have a Presbyterian here. Take it away, Greg. My name is
Greg Moore. I'm the token Presbyterian, I guess, reformed in my theology and host of Dead Man Walking Podcast.
Met these guys a few months ago. We've become good friends and hopefully we can have a good chat tonight. And so you're the
Presbyterian. I'm the Baptist from Andrew Rappaport's Rappaport. And then we have someone who is all the denominations.
Would that be right, Greg? I think he's all of them in his video and he does them pretty well, too.
And that would be conversations with a Calvinist. Who could that be? That's me, Keith Foskey.
And I am your Calvinist. That is it. Yeah, absolutely. Good to see you. OK, so we should explain why for those in my audience, at least,
Greg, your audience knows Keith if they've been OK, maybe if they haven't listened to all the episodes, they should go back and binge.
Would that be? He was on, I don't know, within the last month. So if you caught the last three or four, you'd know who he is.
He would. And you'd get the reference, even the reference to the Wild Wings. But Keith, you you're probably best known.
You're probably better known than any of us here. And for something you do and you explain it, everyone's going to have the same reaction that I had when we first met, when
I was like, oh, that's you're that guy. It's for bringing James White McDonald's.
Yes, that's what that's what I'm famous for, is for bringing James White a hamburger.
Actually, it was a cheeseburger Happy Meal. No, it was. Please get that rumor started.
He said he wanted the toy. No, that's not. Oh, I'm the guy who everybody says you're that guy.
And by that guy, that means the guy who does the denominational videos. And I do various kinds, but the most popular ones are when
I dress like other denominations and make fun of all of us. And you have you point out who has superior theology.
Yes. And tonight it would be Greg, who is the superior theology representative, because it is always the
Presbyterian. And, you know, just just for you, I mean, I have to light this up.
I mean. So we we met and I think our first our first interaction was at a
Buffalo Wild Wings. And it was it was. And, you know, we should we should if we could just share the video that you did, we should explain the video first.
We were sitting at the Buffalo Wild Wings together and we'll get to more serious theology tonight.
But we're sitting and having just having dinner. Very loud place.
And Keith was Greg would be fair to say he was taking tons of notes and just getting ready for show prep.
Yeah, he was stealing our material, Andrew, is what he was doing. Oh, there it is. He's got the stogie out. All right. There's my closet,
Presby. But he doesn't light it up. He just. That's right. I just chew. I just chew.
Like Winston Churchill over there. That's right. So, yeah, go ahead.
I was just going to say, you mentioned that I was taking notes, actually how it started. And I don't remember who said it, but we were we were about to order the wings.
The waitress had walked up and I may have been Greg, but somebody looked at me and they said, well, hey, how would a
Methodist order wings? Because Methodist is the one that's always very, very progressive, very feminine, you know.
And I said, well, they would order the cauliflower wings. And everybody thought that was funny. I said, which is also true, though.
Yeah, they wouldn't want the meat. They would just want the cauliflower wings. And everybody thought that was funny. So I pulled out my phone and wrote that down.
And then everybody started throwing out other ideas. Well, what would the Big Eva be? What would the, you know, everybody?
And, of course, you know, Big Eva has chicken nuggets and calls them wings. And we didn't we didn't discuss the ending of it.
So we'll have to wait for the ending to discuss that. But we're going to say, Greg, I was going to talk about the ending.
I said, you know, it's it's sad because, you know, we have a dipsy here in our presence and you kind of made fun of him.
And Andrew's the exact opposite of that. He's very generous and giving person. But that ending where he pretends the rapture apps and he doesn't have to pay the bill.
I laugh so hard at that. That's a good ending for that skit. And let me just add to that. I went to lunch with Andrew during the conference and he bought my lunch.
So that he is not the one in the video. He's very generous soul.
I'll just say this. I shared the video. I laughed hysterically at the ending. And I did say, when
I posted it, I said, but I paid my bill. That's right. Let's play a clip of it for folks that are watching on the video.
Or they could just those that could listen. And so if you're listening, I'll just say you hear different voices.
All the voices are done by Keith, but he's acting out different roles. So it's kind of better to go and just search for the denomination's order chicken wings.
And that way you can watch the video because, you know, he dresses up as each of the people. And it says whether he's the
Presbyterian, the Baptist or whoever. So here's the video. Welcome to Wings R Us.
My name is Chad. I'll be your server. Can I get you guys a wine list? Sir, I'll have you know, we're a group of Christians, so there won't be any alcohol.
This is the Baptist. That's right. But hey, when the Baptist isn't looking, I need you to turn this glass of water. There's my
Presbyterian. Superior theology requires a superior beverage. Amen. Food order.
Of course, our specialty is wings. So what will everyone be having? I like my wings like I like my sermons.
Filled with fire and brimstone. Independent Baptist. Sure. Those are really, really hot.
Most people can't stand them. Listen, if I can handle Steven Anderson sermons, I can handle your wings.
Steven Anderson reference. Yes. By the way, before I forget, I want to give you this gospel tract. Well, thank you.
Most people just leave this with their tip. That's just the thing. I won't be leaving a tip. Well, there's a big surprise.
Very important to me that the wings be completely submerged in the sauce. I don't want any part that's not covered in sauce.
It's not a real wing unless it's completely immersed. Listen, don't put my wings in the sauce.
I want you to bring the sauce on the side. I'll pour it on myself. Yes, I like wings covered in sweet and hot sauce.
It's a true via media of flavors. And that's the way I like it. I don't like beer battered wings, but you can hold the wings and hold the batter.
So just beer then? That's my boy. That's my boy. Yes, I have a very special way that I want my wings prepared.
I brought a chart with me. It's color coded and it gives the seven different steps that I want my wings made in here.
You can just hand this to the chef. I like boneless wings, please. I actually don't think we have boneless wings on the menu.
Boneless. Listen, man, if you love Jesus, you're going to call chicken nuggets boneless wings.
I want to try your cauliflower wings. Those don't have any meat in them. They're very progressive. And if you would, bring me my sauce in a bottle.
I want to sprinkle it on myself. A few moments later. All right, everyone. I hope you enjoyed the food.
Is this all going to be on one check? Or are we going to be separating this out for everyone? Yes, we're all going to be going separate tonight.
Wait, where's the dispensationalist? Just the clothes.
He pretends to be raptured so he doesn't have to pay his part of the bill. Oh, that's so good.
You know why those are so good, Keith, too, is because you're basically doing comedy, but you understand each one so well that there's little things in there that I look at and I go, oh, yeah,
I get that. And most people would go right over it. The fact that the Presbyterian and the
Lutheran kind of look at each other and have a little thing, there's a long running thing to where Presbyterians kind of have a thing for Lutherans.
We're like, we don't believe in your baptism stuff, your Eucharist stuff. But we kind of, you know, buddy up to them.
And it's like only someone who really understands the relationship between all the denominations can do something like that.
And then you pick up on it and you go, oh, that's just gold. Yeah, there's so much gold in each one of your videos that you know.
You guys on Dead Man Walking podcast when Keith was on, you guys talked about humor. Yeah. And the fact that, you know, there are people and I guess it was,
Keith, you played the Independent Fundamentals Baptist. So he'd be the one without the humor, right? So I'm saying that as someone who is, you know, went to an
Independent Fundamentals Baptist Seminary, just for the record, still dispensational. Full disclosure. Full disclosure.
So, but, you know, you guys talked about the fact of, you know, is humor appropriate?
There's a lot of people that think like Christians shouldn't be joking around, shouldn't have humor. I mean, scripture is clear in Proverbs that humor is good medicine to the soul.
Yeah. I get actually more than you would think. People who tell me that I just shouldn't be doing what
I'm doing. Because it's, I've been told it's one, that all denominations are bad and therefore
I'm just perpetuating something that's bad. Like I created the denominations, like I did this. Like denominationalism is my fault.
Well, you're representing all of them, so. That's it. And, but then some who just, you know, there's, you know, it isn't, that's the one thing
I hear. Division isn't funny. And I'm like, no, it really is. It's hilarious.
That's the basis of comedy is the differences, right? Yeah, that's right. Stereotypical stuff. The difference between men and women, the difference between denominations.
Like the reason why we, why comedy sometimes hits is because one, it's true.
And we're celebrating our differences through laughing kind of at each other. Well, I think one of the biggest reasons
I think that so many Christians don't find things funny and don't like humor is because they're just, well, one, they're looking to be offended like the rest of the world.
So there's that problem. But I think that there's some that have such a pride in their theology that they can't joke about it.
They can't think that someone else may actually be right. They have to be the only one who's right. I really think that's a struggle they have.
And one of the things I appreciate when we all got together in that Buffalo Wild Wings we were at, we were all over the map in different theological topics.
And it was great. I mean, I had so much fun. Even when Greg, this was the funniest scene.
And Paps Addison, I had him on my podcast, and he talked about this one thing that you did,
Greg, because it was just great. Oh, boy. We're all sitting there, and it was one point because, I mean, this was with Jeffrey Rice, and basically there's two topics that came up every night, every discussion, theonomy and end times, right?
And Jeffrey Rice brought them up every time. There was a point where everyone was kind of getting on the Presbyterians with theonomy, and you just turned and went, wait, we got a disbey here.
Why don't we all go after him? Right. Why are you picking on me when there is really an easy pick -on guy right here?
Exactly. That's how I felt. I was like, wait a minute. He's dipsy. Why are we picking on me? And so that was great.
But you know what? We disagreed. You and I, Greg, were probably the people on the opposite sides the most because everyone else pretty much was in alignment except for you and I.
We were sitting next to each other. It was a great time. Even though we disagreed with one another, we had a great theological discussion.
We dug into discussing scripture. We disagreed with one another. There was no name -calling.
It was enjoyable and fun until Keith left us, and then the joke stopped. Well, I'll say two things about that.
One, it was kind of fun seeing how you and I, Andrew, had to kind of form our Game of Thrones alliances because we were among so many
Reformed Baptists. We had to find where we had common ground and kind of link arms and go, okay, at least we can battle together on this.
But two, I would also just say for those listening, yes, I love comedy. I love poking fun, or I can listen to someone talking about systematic theology.
Now, where I do draw the line is if you're talking about my Savior in a demeaning manner or if you're talking about Christ and his sacrifice and what he's done,
I do draw the line there, and I think both of you would agree with that. But I just wanted to make that clear for the listeners. I'm not going to sit through something that demeans
Christ or God or any of that. But if you want to talk about our differences and systematic theology and things like that, and most of them are secondary issues, sometimes not, yeah, have at it, and let's joke about it, and let's have a good time with it.
Amen. Yeah. No, I think that's a very important point because I think when it comes to the character and nature of God, that's in a different category than our systematic theology, which, look, all of us have a theological position that was written by men.
Whichever position we have, now everyone's going to go, no, I have just the Bible.
No, you don't. Have you guys run into the person, because I'm sure you have, that person who tells you he doesn't go to church, he doesn't need church, he doesn't need a confessional, he has the
Bible, he doesn't listen to words of men. Yeah, they're called dispensationalists. I'm joking.
Of course not, Andrew, we know. No, we run into those people, it's like, have you ever realized you are your system?
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. Go ahead, Keith. I was just going to say, it's funny how many of those people are, when they say that, it's just,
I don't need a system, I don't need a man telling me anything, it's just me and my Bible.
How many of those people are just outright kooky when they start explaining the things that they've come up with, and it's just me and my
Bible, and they, it's almost always some kind of really fringe, out on the edge, weird position that they've come up with.
And some people might claim, well, that's because the Bible's unclear. No, it's because that person has made themselves the standard, and they are going to read everything through their own filter.
It's not as if they don't have a filter, they do, it's their own brain, and their filter is, you know, it's messed up.
And Keith, why is it that they all seem to struggle with that one passage, forsake not assembling together? Yeah.
Yeah. Like, I've never met a single one of them that actually goes to church and submits himself to anyone, right?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And they'll tell you, they'll say, I don't need anybody, you know, I don't submit to man, I just submit to God.
And it's like, okay, that, you know, ultimately we do have to submit to God, but what do you do with Hebrews 13 that says to submit to your leaders and obey them and that their work may be a joy and not a burden?
You know, how do you, how do you submit? Well, I'm submitting to Jesus. Okay. That's not what that passage is talking about.
So, yeah, I think it's, it's an accountability issue. When you get down to it, it's a pride issue.
I'm dealing with that with a very close family member. Well, I just, I have my church service out here in my house.
I live by myself, me and God, we talk and we read the Bible and, you know, you can skip over a lot of passages that, that actually command it.
Submit to elders, submit to civil leaders, submit to one another. Hello.
Don't forsake the gathering of the assembly, like Andrew pointed out. And I think it comes down to every sin comes down to pride.
There's some pride and accountability issues there. And I've known, I've went through, I went through those in my life in my early thirties, just thought, you know,
I can make a run at this myself. And then realized, no, very quickly you can't.
And then when you realize the joy of the body of Christ that comes with gathering with brothers and sisters.
And as Keith, he's a pastor. I mean, I'm sure you wake up and you go, I can't wait to see my brothers and sisters on Sunday, bring the word fellowship, you know, assemble with them.
So I don't know. It's tough too, because they don't know, they don't know what they're missing out on.
It's a bull. It's a common grace. It's a blessing of the Lord for us to be able to gather. Amen. Yeah.
I mean, I think what it ultimately does, I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding what church actually is, because when you think, oh,
I could do church at home with my family. Okay. So there's 31 one another's in the new
Testament. Are you doing, you're not practicing those the way you would in church.
You have not only those, but you have all the spiritual gifts. And those are for the others. They're not for yourself.
So now what do you do when you're, you can't use your spiritual gifts? And who are the pastors and the deacons?
How are you doing communion? You can't do these things when it's just, Hey, it's just me at home by myself. And, or I'm watching
TV. I'm watching some, someone on TV and that's church. You're not participating.
You're you're doing the very opposite of what church is about. Church is not about me getting, I mean, there are times where I think we do, we go to church.
Maybe it's just been a rough season of life and you go to church and, and you're the one that people are ministering to.
Yeah. But that's because other times you're the one ministering to others. You can't do that with a TV. That's not church.
Yeah. You sitting with the Bible, you can't practice church. Well, like I said, it's accountability though, too, right?
I mean, who are you submitting to at that point? You're becoming the monarchy and the only monarchy is Christ.
So if you're at home by yourself and you make all the decisions and you go, Oh, I'm, I'm checking in with, with God.
Well, I hate to tell you, but God doesn't come down to your living room on Mount Sinai and speak to you like he did to Moses.
He has set in place a very structured order of how it is. And maybe this is a little bit of my
Presbyterian coming up, but you do, you have pastors, you have elders, you have other brothers and sisters who hold you accountable.
And then through that line is if you're not taking your family to church, how are you going to be the head of your household submitting to elders and shepherds?
If you make yourself the king of that castle and essentially don't have any accountability. So generally
I see it as a rebellious spirit when people do that. Now I don't look at, I know there's good Christians out there and people that we know that don't attend church and they're believers, but at the root of it, if we introspect and we look deep and we go, if they really were to ask themselves, what's the reason why
I'm not doing that? It usually comes down to, like I said, pride and accountability, I think. Yeah.
And not to be self -promotional, but I do want to mention something.
I've, I've not written a lot of things, but I do have a book that I wrote called a biblically functioning church, which talks about the structure that you were just talking about,
Greg, and understanding the structure of the biblically functioning church. What, what elders do, what deacons do, what gift based ministry is is what
Andrew was just talking about. How do we use our gifts within the body? And it's, it's available.
You can order it, but you can also get it for free. I have it available on our church's website.
You can get the digital version absolutely free at sgfcjacks .org slash books. And I also have my book on the
Trinity, but I just, this particular topic means a lot to my heart. I even did a video. I had a video of if people want to find it on our, on our channel of two men arguing over whether or not they should go to church.
It's me arguing with myself. It's that the way I do the videos, but in the, in the guy says, you know,
I don't go to church. I am the church. It's like, no, you're not. You are not the church. You, you, the church is the assembly and you, you don't get to assemble by yourself.
You're not Voltron. Okay. You don't get to assemble all by yourself. So, and that's a eighties reference right there, but yeah, the, the, so anyway, if anybody's interested, they can go in and check out the book.
And we actually use it for teaching our one of our classes at the academy teaching the
Christian life and ministry. So. Yeah. You know, we, we had, I mean, as you guys, you know, my background,
I do a lot of open air evangelism and there was a guy who wrote a book about whether women can do open air.
And part of the argument that was made was when you go out on the street, that's church.
And therefore a woman can't be preaching because it's called open air preaching. Now I've always referred to it as open air evangelism, because that's really what you're doing.
You're evangelizing. Now there are guys that prepare sermons who you preach into.
If it's an evangelistic sermon, okay. That would be fitting. But the thing though is that the arguments the person was making was,
Hey, there's two or three gathered. We're singing songs. We're praying. We're preaching that defines church.
And I actually said to him, I said, you know, I've done all those at a secular job site. You know, we had a couple of believers that we got in early and we would, we pray before work and we do a
Bible study. And there were, there was three of us. Does that make it church? And he's like, Oh, you're being ridiculous. I said, all
I'm doing is using your argument and apply that you're using on the street and applying it to a different situation. And it got me looking into what is the church.
And that that's actually, you know, when I wrote my book, what do we believe? The what started from that, it was going to be just a blog article became the chapter of the book.
And it just gives a history of the church because we see the church has, has morphed and become more and more precise over time.
I mean the word Ekklesia where we get the word church from in Greek, it really came from Ephesus referring to voting.
And we don't think of it that way, but it was a gathering together of people for the purpose to vote. That was the first reference that we see of Ekklesia.
And it became in the new Testament time. It was just a gathering. You know, in the time of Christ, when he walked the earth, it was just a gathering.
Yeah. But then after Christ, it became more specific to a gathering for the worship of God.
And then you end up seeing through history in, in the middle ages, it became, well, we started talking about the invisible, invisible church, referring to that local body, that visible body that assembles, that's made up of believers, unbelievers and that universal body, the invisible body of only believers everywhere.
But yeah, Europeans got more specific and they were like, no, no. Churches got to have three elements.
You got to have the pre the preaching of the word, the practicing of the, of the ordinances, you know, baptism and Lord's supper.
And you had to have, and this one might surprise people church discipline. If you didn't have church discipline, they would say you're not a church.
And so you end up seeing it morphing. Now I'll admit in my book, I'm a dispute there, Greg, but I do say that it continued to morph in the separation between the church, but Hey, not everyone's going to agree with that one.
I would say the most important point in that. And then Keith, I'll let you jump in here. Is it, it is my pet peeve when people use the two or three or more gathered to talk about church or prayer or anything like that.
We're talking about church discipline there. Christ is saying, Hey, you know, the law that says you have to have multiple witnesses to convict someone.
I'm there in your presence. When you bring someone before the elders, after you've already tried to settle it between them, bring them there.
I'm in your midst. I will, I will be that person that's essentially ruling over that decision.
So that two or three are gathered and we're a church. It's not even the right use of that, that biblical passage, first of all.
And then second of all, just like you, just like you said, it's more, it's more than either a building or a gathering.
There's look, you could call a church, three people. Heck, if you've got three underground, there's churches right now in China, China that have nine people in them.
And it's a church. They're all running. They don't want to be beheaded. They're underground. They're swapping micro
SD cards that have Bible chapters on them. And they're a church. They're part of the larger universal church as well.
So the numbers games doesn't really fly with me. Yeah. And the two or three,
I mean, you nailed it. We did a podcast about it on the subject of, you know, understanding that two or three are, are, are gathered.
And people use that also for house churches. And I am not opposed to house churches necessarily, but house churches have, uh, typically what
I have seen have little to no structure. And again, the whole biblically functioning church, my, again, my term biblically functioning church means there's a structure, a structure, a structure under which we function.
And, um, I understand as Andrew was saying, I agree. There has been, there has been a morphing or an evolution with you to use an ugly word, an evolution of church over time, but the structure of elders and deacons and those things, uh, were there in the, in the beginning, they're there in the writings of Paul.
Paul gives us the structure and the, the pastorals and, um, yeah, for somebody to say, well, we don't need the church all, you know, the majority of Paul's writings were written to the church specifically to who church is.
And, uh, you know, the new Testament is all about the church. When I, when I hear you say structure,
I hear accountability. Is that kind of what you're talking about too? Because that's what I see. Oh, I just got a house church, me and my 15 buddies.
And now I'm, I'm, I'm out on an Island here. There's absolutely no accountability to elders, shepherds, uh, any biblical accountability.
That's when you're saying structure, some people might think, Oh, you have to have a church. You have to have two services a week.
You have to have parking for the handicap. You have to have be up to code with the local, but are you, that's not, is that what you're talking about?
Are you talking about the larger presbytery the, the, the, you know, the, the accountability of, of leadership?
Well, I accountability is a good word, but here's what I mean by structure. And I, and I usually, when
I have a whiteboard, when I teach on this, I, I would, I would draw this out. I would say that the structure of the church begins with Christ as the head.
And if Christ is not the head of the church, then you don't have a church. And how do you know if Christ is the head of the church?
Well, the word is how Christ governs his church. If the word is not being preached, then you don't have
Christ at the head. Therefore, you don't have a church. So it begins with crisis, the head of the church, that's the structure. The word must be preached.
That's the, that's how the, that's how the head governs. The body is through the word. The word is how he governs.
And so it begins with that. But then after that, who is responsible for preaching and teaching that word?
That's the elders job. And therefore you have under the head, you have this sphere of authority given to the elders to preach and teach that word.
Therefore, Christ is leading his church through the word being preached by the elders. That's the structure. And then the ministry of that body is done through the deacons who are the arms and legs of the church, doing the ministry within the body and being examples to the body that they might minister one to another.
Cause the Bible says we were given these leaders to do what? To equip the saints for the work of ministry through their gifts that they've been given to them.
According to first Corinthians 12, everyone's been given a gift by the choice of the Holy spirit who gives as he wills. And therefore the body is working as it's being instructed through the elders by the head
Christ, which is his word. So that's the, so like I literally draw this picture of like a body, like this is, this is what the church structure is.
And if that's not, and, and, and really, you know, we could talk about Episcopalian and Presbyterian and, and congregational models, but it all comes down to is
Christ the head. And if Christ is in the head, and if there's not this basic structure, then there's, then there's not a church.
So really quick, let me just respond to that. And then Andrew, of course, you can talk on your own podcast here. Sorry. It's been a minute.
So you would be okay with like, so we had like a Dale Partridge on the podcast,
I think almost a year and a half ago now, and he is really big on home churches, but the home churches have that structure set up home, no more than 50 to 60 people.
They have shepherds, they have elders, they have deacons, but it's on a much smaller scale and they meet in their homes.
So you wouldn't be opposed to something like that because you do have that structure accountability, that biblical you know, line of, of, of where that authority is.
So, you know, it doesn't matter where you're physically meeting at that point. Yeah. Where, where you meet is not the, is not the focus.
It's, it's how you structure the gathering and how you structure the body.
And when we come to issues like church discipline, how is that handled? You know, one of the things
Andrew said earlier, the three things preaching of the word sacraments and the discipline of the church, you know, is that handled biblically?
I know a lot of churches right now, I can think of a couple off the top of my head that have, have exercised discipline in a way that was unbiblical and the church suffered for it.
And a lot of times it's because you have men and I'm going to, I'm going to use a phrase here and this might catch me, this might get me ugly emails, but you have untrained men leading the people of God.
Now I'm not saying that every pastor has to go to seminary, but every pastor should be trained in the word of God, whether that is through the local church, whether that, however that training has happened.
And what happens is you get unskilled untrained men handling the word of God. And that's more dangerous than a child with a gun, because that person has the ability to endanger souls with the behavior that they're doing.
So you need men who know what they're doing, especially in a house church, because you're in a situation where the structure is going to be need needed even more to be defined because it's not defined by the externals.
It's going to have to be defined by the internals. I would even say the Bible steps that up when we looking at eldership and, and what the bare minimum requirements are.
It's not you need to know about the Bible and we say, Oh, you don't have to go to seminary, but you need to be true.
No, the Bible says what's his personal life. Like are his children believers, are his children acting rightly in public?
How about his wife? How does his wife treat him? How does he treat his wife? What age is he? Has he attained just even a certain level of wisdom and discernment because of his age, that God gives us through common grace, through age and experience.
Like the Bible is so much more strict on what a, what a shepherd should be.
And then I think sometimes we loosen it and we go, well, you don't have to be in seminary. Okay. Who cares about seminary or not?
A lot of the early church believers didn't go to seminary. I'm talking about the character. How are they training their family?
How are they leaders in their homes as men? And then we can look to them to then teach us about God or teach us the word.
So I don't even get to the seminar argument. I didn't care less if you go to seminary or not kind of probably how you feel. I want to know when
I'm, when I meet Keith's wife and wife and kid, which I did and they're lovely and respectful and Godly, well, he's doing something right in his home.
It's because my kids went to seminary. You know, you make up a good point because I, some of the best preachers
I've heard have not been to seminary. And part of the reason why they're so good is because they feel like, oh,
I didn't go to seminary. They study harder. But you know, Keith, when you were talking, the passage that came to my mind was when
Paul says this in 2 Timothy 2. And these things, which you've heard from me in the presence of many witnesses.
So Paul saying this to Timothy, he says, entrust these two faithful men who will also be able to teach others.
So what you have is Paul teaches Timothy, Timothy teaches faithful men, faithful men teach others.
So it's not just the pastors that are teaching. And this is one of the things that is really a struggle.
Keith, I don't know if you've experienced this. So I pastored a church in New Jersey. You know, well, for Jersey, it was a big church.
150 people is a big church in Jersey. But everyone expects the pastor does everything.
People would be like, oh, I'm going to invite my neighbor pastor so you could share the gospel. I'm like, I don't know your neighbor. You do.
You share the gospel with your neighbor, because I'm not the professional Christian. Like I teach you so you could go and teach others.
And I think what you bring up is a really good point, because when we think of church, people do think it's the building, or it's what you do on Sunday, or it's the people.
But it's more than that as we get more specific, because it's all of those things, but it's the structure.
It's the fact that this is a place that God has created. And right now in my
Wrap Report podcast, we're actually going through a doctrinal statement at Striving Fraternity, and we're in the church. And we've been going through this and describing the importance and the differences of church.
It's a spiritual organism. We just got done recording about the fact that this is not a business.
You don't run church like a business. And this is a big problem. You're talking about unqualified men.
What unfortunately a lot of people do is they find a guy that's a good leader in business. Oh, you're an elder.
You're a deacon. And they put leadership or in a ministry because they're good at what they do in the secular world, but that doesn't work over.
And let me give you one quick reason why, just to help people think about it. When you're in a business, failure is not an option, right?
Someone who keeps failing you, fire. That's what you do in a business.
But when you're talking about a spiritual organism, what that means with the church is it's all about discipleship.
So failure is expected because that's how we learn. So we expect failure so we could teach through it.
And one of the biggest problems I see in ministries is when they don't allow failure. They don't allow people to learn from their mistakes.
They're expected to either do it right or, okay, then we'll let the professionals do it. And that's why there becomes like the, okay, the pastors do this because we can't allow failure.
No, this is about discipleship. That's the heartbeat of the church in my mind is discipleship.
And if you don't allow failure, you're not discipling. And I would just like to backtrack a little bit and say,
I said, I don't care about seminary. I got a little, you know, I get a little boisterous. No, first of all, anyone who's been to seminary, including
Andrew, he can attest to this. It is very, very hard. It takes a lot of dedication. You know what
I mean? So I'm not throwing that out. Believe me, you do an MDiv or you're going to school for four, eight, you know, 12 years, doctorate, all that.
It's very hard. It takes a lot of dedication. So I'm not saying I don't care about it in that sense.
I'm just, I was just trying to make the point that we need to look at the biblical, you know, the, the biblical, what's the word
I'm looking for? Qualifications. We want to, yeah, we want to look at the character of the person and not where they went to school because, because the letters after your name don't qualify you to preach
God's words. I know people who have the MDs who have the PhDs and they can't preach themselves out of wet paper bag.
They can't communicate God's word. And I mean, this, this, let me, cause I want to get to something you had said,
Greg, to transition to maybe some biblical interpretation. But as I told you guys on my, on my show, we have a sponsor and I do have to give,
I do have to do an ad for my sponsor, which is MyPillow. So let me, let me transition to that.
Cause I know Keith will fall asleep if not. And so if Keith needs a good night of sleep, he should get himself a good
MyPillow. MyPillow has been supporting us. You can use promo code SFE stands for striving for eternity.
And that lets them know you heard about them from us. I do have their product. Do either of you guys have a
MyPillow? My brother has one and he swears by it. Okay. Well, I haven't gotten one yet, but now that I know they're, you're they're a sponsor here,
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But they have the new, they have the new MyPillow 2 .0. So if you're, if you're a person like me who sweats at night, because your wife is, gets cold all the time, you know, and we're just totally different temperatures.
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Now, Keith, you were going to say something. No, no, I'm thankful. Thank you for the gift. Yeah. That, that, that's awesome.
Yeah. Least I could do. So, so here's the thing. You mentioned
Matthew 18. Yes. Greg, this is one of the things that, oh, it gets, it's a good, so I, we go to churches at Triventary, we go and do weekend seminars.
And one of the seminars we have is a Bible interpretation made easy seminar. And you brought up one of the verses that we always bring up.
Actually, not only that one, you, you quoted Matthew 18 20 for where there are two or three gathered in my name.
There I am in the midst, which people use for like all the time for small gathering, you know, prayer meetings, things like that.
But I bring up the verse just before it, because I had someone use this on me. Matthew 18 19 says this again,
I say to you have two or three agree on earth about anything that they may ask. It shall be done for them by my father who is in heaven.
And I actually had a friend in college. He asked me to co -sign a loan for a car because his parents wouldn't do it.
I'm like, dude, you do know that I was raised Jewish. You really think I'm going to co -sign a loan?
No. I mean, maybe at a high interest rate, but I can't do that. Okay. Jewish people don't make bad deals.
Okay. He's like, I own the bank that you're getting a loan from you idiot. Yeah. But he, next day he comes to me, he says,
I'm getting a brand new car. And I'm like, did your parents change their mind? He goes, no. He quoted that verse.
He said, I got two brothers to pray with me that I will get a new car.
And so I'm getting a new car because God's going to give it to me. I'm like, that's not what that verse means.
That seems like a reasonably sound hermeneutic to me. Of course. Yeah. I mean, so, so when
I do like, here's the thing you look at it, you brought up. This is about church discipline. The two or three are the witnesses to witness that somebody is in unrepentant sin.
Okay. Here's a trick question and I'm letting you know, it's a trick question.
Matthew 28, 19 and 20 verse 20. He says, Jesus is saying, and lo,
I am with you always. So I asked people how many Christians need to be present for God to be present.
And people will always say one. And then I go, no,
God's omnipresent. If there's no Christians, he's present. Right. Yeah.
We got to think through when we look at scripture, it's not, we don't take a verse, you know, outside of its context in a vacuum.
I mean, one of the worst things, even though it's, it's a good thing, but at the same time, bad thing was when we put chapter breaks and verses in there, because people started reading a single verse completely outside of its context and try to give it new meanings.
And I think that's one of the biggest struggles that we have in Christianity right now is people do not know how to interpret the word of God.
And unfortunately what they do is they just expect, well, I'm going to go to church on Sunday and hear pastor Keith.
Tell me what, not what the Bible means. What they're expecting is what the
Bible tells me to do. Just give me the application. And a lot of preachers preach that way.
So let's talk about if we could, the importance of hermeneutics, the art and science of interpretation. Keith, you study every week, you're preparing the very next verse from whatever you left off last week.
That's right. Why is it important to do that? Why is it important for us to communicate to people the meaning of the text?
That's actually a good question because some would say it's not important.
There are those who would say that because everybody has the same Holy Spirit, everyone has the ability to interpret the
Bible for themselves. And I like what dr. R .C. Sproul says about that.
He says, yes, we, we, we all have the right to have the Bible and to interpret it, but with the right to interpret comes the responsibility to interpret it accurately.
And so what I am doing is I am presenting to the people of God, the, the, the conclusions that I have come to based upon the study that I have done and praying to God that I have gotten this correct while at the same time submitting unto them with the ability to receive correction, if I need it.
And I have, I can think of several occasions where I have said something in a sermon where the very next week
I had to come back and say, I said something last week that was said either in, in haste or in, in, in presumption that I had not really studied to the fullest that I should have.
And I was brought to task because of someone in the church who was willing to correct me or to, to at least address me on something that I had said.
And so the one thing that's important to realize is that when the man of God preaches the word of God, he is, he is submitting himself as a, as an, an imperfect vessel of communication.
And I pray every week, I pray, God, keep me from error for your sake and for the sake of your people.
And for the sake of my conscience, God, please keep me from error. And, and I pray that every,
I mean, you can listen to over a thousand sermons I have online and every one of them,
I pray the same prayer before I, before I preach. So I, I think that preaching is the, the, the, the, the studied man of God who got the people of God have, have provided me a living.
And my living is, is that I'm going to study this word and I'm going to feed them like a shepherd feeds his sheep.
And every week I'm going to break down the word of God and feed it. And at the end, so they trust that I'm doing that.
And at the same time, they are my accountability. Because if I say something that is incorrect,
I know that I have a hundred good Bible students sitting in front of me who have the same Bible in front of them who have the same
Holy spirit within, within them that they can ask me questions and call me to account if necessary.
I'm not sure if that quite answers your question. I hope it does, but that's, that's sort of the importance of this is God's word needs to be explained because the people of God need to hear it.
But that doesn't mean that we are perfect in our explanation. We do, we do our best to the study of hermeneutics and original languages and all those things in historical contextual examination of the text and exegesis and all those to bring, to bring the people of God, the best answer that we have for what this text is saying.
Yeah. I mean, one thing you brought up and it's, it is a real advantage to pastoring one flock and being able to come back next week as I have done and said,
I said this, it was wrong and correct it. It's harder when you, you, you're not coming back to that congregation and you had, and, and Keith, you've probably never been this bad, but because when you, you speak, sometimes words slip, you confuse words because you're thinking ahead and you've probably never done what
I did and say that Judas died on the cross for your sins. I, I, I, I got done preaching in it and an eight year old walked up and said, pastor
Andrew, why did you say Judas died on the cross for our sins? Now every adult knows what I meant. They, they pick up on it, but you know, we do that and it's important that we be humble to realize that,
Hey, you know, we, we mess up. Um, we, we, we sometimes, sometimes we, we don't, we, we try to add something in last minute.
Yeah. We say it wrong. And the worst thing with me is when I'm wrong, like I, I once said
Zacchaeus and said, I said Zachariah instead of Zacchaeus seven times.
Every time I got it wrong. I mean like, great. At least I'm consistent. Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Okay. This, I have to say this and this is, I'm, I'm sorry, this is just a quick side joke because I love humor.
But, um, there was a pastor who, um, it was, it was a Catholic priest who was doing a funeral and he didn't have time to write a new funeral.
So he used the same funeral for the lady that he had done the funeral they did before. He just used the same thing, but he went into Microsoft word and he did a word switch and he switched out her name for the name of the new lady.
And he was going through the sermon and as he was preaching, he talked about the blessed burden, the blessed virgin
Janice. Cause her name was Mary. Yeah. So, you know, what's interesting about that too.
So I've never been in the position that you two have been in to where I've, I've never been a shepherd or a pastor elder.
Um, and somehow, you know, because one, I, I feel that position, uh, I feel that the majority of pastors in Western American church don't understand the, the heaviness of that.
Now I'm not including you two in that. I've got to know you. I've talked to you. I know you guys understand what that, that entails.
So I've always said, Oh man, I would never want to do that. But about six months into the podcast, you start having people reach out to you and ask you about this question.
And I realized my wife said something to me. She goes, well, you have a responsibility to rightly represent Christ on a podcast though, too, because you have people listening and they're listening and they're talking and they're, you know, commenting on things.
I went, Oh wow. I found myself right back in the position that I didn't want to be into where I have to be very careful about my words when
I'm doing a podcast with a guest or without, especially without you better believe that I've studied it that week.
And to the best of my ability, I'm either explaining it or talking about it rightly. Um, and Keith, I love the example that you gave that you're breaking up the bread and feeding the food.
Right. Um, to put that another way, I'm, I'm a big, uh, smoker. Well, not just, uh, cigars, but smoking meat, right?
Like brisket, pork, chicken, right? Wings. It's some, it's a 78 degrees here today.
I see a new denominational, you know, he's, he's, he's getting material. Nominations smoke their meat.
I, but, but the, the biggest smoking, I thought we were talking cigars. No, but even with like smoking, even when handling meat, like any good chef will tell you there are rules.
You need to have a good hermeneutic, so to speak. If we're using an LG about how to handle pork, chicken brisket,
I can't go on a Monday and go, I'm gonna set this pork out. And I'll come back to it on Sunday, leave it out for room temperature for seven days.
I'm going to have a lot of sick people when they eat my pork in the same way you handle the word of God. That way there's rules to it.
There's, there's ways that we handle it and the ways that we study it and, and interpret it that allows us to rightly serve good food on the
Lord's day. And I think that's what you're talking about as well, too. And I think that's why having a solid hermeneutic is so important.
Unfortunately. Now I don't think it's the circles we run in because we're in an odd, odd group where we love theology.
We love doing podcasts about the Lord and theology and doctrine, but I would say the majority of Western Christians and you can back this up by there's
Ligonier, a few polls and things like that, that they've done, but the majority of them don't even understand the simple hermeneutic of context scripture, interpreting scripture, things like that, which is so important for me when
I'm reading the word, I really love to just get into that whole period.
I want to know who's the author talking to. What was the group people that he was talking to, right? Like what is the original
Greek, maybe three or four commentaries from different perspectives to look at that. That's one of the reasons why
I love my Jewish Christian friends like Andrew, like Michael Brown.
And there's things I disagree with him in the charismatic sack, but we talk and I appreciate where he's coming from there.
We as Western Christians don't even understand we all, we've been grafted into the faith. You don't even understand that you have
Jews talking to Jewish audience. What that means when you go through Hebrews and you realize a
Jew is talking to other Jews and going, this is what priest says. This is what profit is. This is what sitting at the right hand means that, you know, it opens up this whole world of going, oh, this is why they're explaining it that way.
And without any researcher digging into it, digging into that word and actually grabbing onto it, it's a very surface level, take one verse out of context kind of interpretation of the
Bible. And it does God so much injustice when we read the Bible that way, but I'll get off my soapbox there.
I'll jump on the soapbox there then for you. There you go. Because you just mentioned something that got me thinking with, when we talk about interpretation,
I remember my first pastor, he was, he's preaching through and got to the passage that Jesus says, no man knows the day of the hour.
Only the father knows. And he's spending about 20 minutes explaining how
Jesus in his deity can know something that in his humanity, he cannot. And I was struggling with that for one reason, because that's actually like a heresy when you start dividing the natures of Christ and, and people unbeknownst trying to explain this, end up explaining a heresy, but they're trying to keep it where it's not really heretical, but to, and I remember
I walked up to him and I said, why didn't you just explain that it's a Jewish idiom? And he just looked at me and says, it is right.
It's like, yeah, it refers to the marriage. It's it's that the father would go and the son never knew what day he was getting married.
Only the father knew. So the idiom has to do with living an expected life as if any moment could be the time that the father says, go get your bride.
So the saying is that, you know, the, only the father knows that the son doesn't know only the father knows is the idea that the son doesn't pick the day of his wedding.
So he's got to live as if every day is that day. And then you look at the context and everything in the context is about living as if any moment is the day.
And I see, I knew the idiom, but most, most Gentiles don't.
And so Andrew, I, can I just say as a, as a, as you being a dispensationalist and you taking a temporal verse like that and correctly interpreting it as a
Jewish idiom, I'm so proud of you, my friend. I think you're on the cusp of coming over a little bit to at least a mill, maybe not full post mill, but I might get you over to our mill because the way you interpreted that so correctly, it took, took something that had to do with time because you
Dipsy's you love those time versus at hand and, you know, coming soon and expecting.
I mean, the way you interpret that gives me hope, gives me hope for my brother. Well, Keith had to look at his face like he was not agreeing with me, but he's asleep.
He had a 14 hour day today. Okay. I didn't have a very long day. Elders meeting venture.
So yeah. Yeah. My pillow. Yes. I, I, I can,
I lost him at my pillow. He was out.
He was like, Oh, hello. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is that it is a thing where, you know, what
Keith's job as a pastor, as he said, right. Is he's getting paid full time so he can study the word.
This is, this is something that's not our culture. Try, try explaining email to someone a hundred years ago.
I mean, now I don't know your, your kids maybe are not old enough to have asked you this question. I remember my daughter, she was like, dad, what did you do when your parents grounded you from, you know, took away your cell phone.
And I, I just laughed her and cell phone. I said, no, no, no, no. We had one phone. It was in the kitchen. And when we were really happy when we had a really long cord.
So we, so our siblings wouldn't hear it. Some privacy. Yeah. It took 18 minutes to dial.
I was like, you just told that no one had a zero in their number, you know, come on.
20 minutes. Or you mess up like right on the sixth number, you know, I see.
I see Keith's next video. Like, you know, domination style phone. He's going to have the, he's going to have the dispensationalist going six, six, six.
That's the whole reason we did this podcast just to give Keith some new material. Yeah. He's not going to use any of it, but he used it, he used it before and you were quick to take credit for it.
No, I've got, you know, what's funny is I've, I'm about, I'm about three or four deep in videos that I want to do.
And you guys are giving me some new ideas. What's funny. You mentioned the smoking meat.
I do have the denominations head of a barbecue. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah, I did. I absolutely loved it.
The smoking meat with the Presbyterian just going, you know, thinking, I thought this was about cigars, you know, superior meat, how, how different, how different denominations smoke and you got the millennials with their, with, with their vaping pits.
That'll be good. Mercy. Yeah. That's funny. But, you know, I mean, I think that a lot of pastors, you know, and a lot of seminaries more are teaching pastors,
Hey, just it's about the one big point, you know, the big application that you have form and not digging into the scripture and trying to understand the meaning of the text.
And, and yet I think, you know, if more pastors were communicating the text, then they might have less counseling to do.
If they, if they communicate, I mean, every sermon that I preach, whether directly or indirectly,
I am looking to teach people how to interpret scripture. I'm going to say,
I'm going to say things like, well, you know, if you have, you know, therefore, okay.
You know, the phrase is okay. What's the therefore, therefore, well, that, that there's a reason. People would say things like that. It's to communicate.
You look for this for a reason. And I think that's really important. And, you know, we, the three of us sit here together and yet when, what are what really differentiates us comes down to hermeneutics, right?
A Presbyterian view, you're going to have more of a, what we refer to as covenant theology, which really, and historically would be reformed theology properly.
They've kind of mixed up names and all. I would be dispensational. So I would have more of a lit, more literal hermeneutic.
Keith, you're going to be, now we were talking earlier. I would end up calling you a new covenant, but you're not using that.
What was the term you used for it again? The, the, the term that is, is popularized now is called progressive covenantalism.
And it is based primarily on the teachings of the book kingdom through covenant, which is by Steve Wellum and Peter Gentry.
And it's on the understanding, the outfolding of God's work through the covenants that the scripture actually names.
He, my, my, my issue with classic covenantalism is that it, it, it is based upon three covenants that the scripture never actually uses the term covenant in regard to the covenant of redemption, the covenant of works and the covenant of grace.
And so progressive covenantalism begins with the covenants that the scripture actually does mention.
And that is, well, there's arguments about the Adamic covenant or what's called the covenant of creation.
And then you have the Noahic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, the Davidic covenant, and the new covenant and how each of the preceding covenants are, are pointing forward to Christ in a way that is, that, that is fulfilled in him.
And going back to the conference that we went to from shadow to substance, that all of the covenants leading up to the new covenant were shadows of this one great final new covenant that we have in the
Lord Jesus Christ. And so you know where, where we would distinguish from classic covenantalism would be on things like we do not take a tripartite distinction in the law.
That would be the one, probably the biggest thing that I have difference when
I differ with my covenant theology friends is we would look at the entire old covenant as a unit that has been abrogated in the new covenant.
And the new covenant has superseded that as a, in fact, a new covenant rather than just a re -administration of the old covenant.
So, you know, we've given, we've given Greg some fodder because of your progressive covenantalism.
And then you have progressive dispensationalism. He's just going to complain we're all progressive, but yeah, that he's using the
P word. I mean, I wouldn't even use that in my house. Progressive is a bad, I'd go back to new covenant. Good Lord.
I don't want anything that says progressive in my name, but well, can I, can I say something about that? Because just in case somebody is listening and they know the subject and they know the, the, the, the reason why many folks have gone away from using the term new covenant theology, and there were some good things written.
You mentioned before the show, uh, Andrew about Fred Zaspel and John Reisinger, there were some very good things written about new covenant theology, but what happened is that term was absconded by, by, by many groups that began to use it as a, uh, as an excuse to have no, no law or what we call anti -gnomian view where there's where, where, where they, they had no standards, no commands, nothing.
We believe that we have commands. We believe Christ is our captain. He is the actual one who gives us our marching orders.
And therefore we do not have an anti -gnomian view. We have a, we have a view that has a
King and the King has made, uh, commands and we are to follow after him.
And so anyone who says it's anti -gnomian typically, uh, I would,
I would say, don't quite understand what we're coming, where we're coming from. So Keith, did I hear you correctly when you said you don't make a distinction between like under mosaic law under the covenant of works between like civil ceremonial and judicial?
Is that what you're talking about when you're, or no? Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually what you're saying is the three, you said civil ceremony and judicial it's actually civil ceremony on moral.
I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I didn't mean to correct you. It sounded, I said it wrong. Can you correct me?
And I sounded very jerkish though. I want to Paul, I apologize. What you said ain't what you meant.
Sorry. Civil falls under judicial, but yeah, moral, civil and ceremonial. Yeah. So, so the, so the big distinction lies in how we understand the moral law, the covenant classic covenant theology would say all of God's moral law is encompassed in the 10 commandments.
And therefore, uh, the 10 commandments are God's moral law. And what happens is out of that, you get things like Sabbatarianism because they say, well, the moral law includes the
Sabbath. Therefore, Sabbatarianism must be part of God's moral law. Therefore we must be perpetually required to keep the
Sabbath. And then you have people who worship on Sunday and say, well, the Sabbath changed from Saturday to Sunday, and there becomes a big issue with that.
So what we say is that there is a transcendent law that transcends all of the covenants.
And it preceded the Mosaic law because when Cain killed Abel, it was wrong to kill
Abel, even though there was not a written law that said, thou shall not commit murder. It was wrong when Cain killed
Abel because murder, it transcends covenant. And therefore we wouldn't break the law into three parts and say, this part's moral in this part, civil in this part ceremonial.
Cause we would say even a breach of the ceremonial law under that covenant would have been a moral infraction because a ceremonial law was
God's command. Therefore, if you break God's command, it's a moral infraction, even if it's not, you know, offering up the proper sacrifice or whatever, it's a moral infraction.
So, so we would not say there were moral laws, civil laws and ceremonial laws. We would say that there is transcendent laws, laws which transcend all covenants.
Thou shall not commit murder is a transcendent law. Man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman. That's transcendent because we find that in both the old and the new covenant things like murder and stealing and lying are all.
They were wrong during the time of Abraham. They were wrong during the time of Moses and the wrong during the time of Christ, because those things transcend the covenant.
The best book on this particular subject that I know of is written by Tom Shriner. It's called 40 questions about biblical law.
And he explains that idea of transcendent law. And if you, if you,
I know you probably have heard of Sam Waldron, Sam Waldron takes a different perspective than I do, but he does explain this in a way
I think is very good because he talks about what is called a positive law. He would say positive laws that which is added to the moral law.
And the question is whether or not things like the Sabbath are positive laws. So. So how do you know the difference between what transcendent law is?
And then the, and then what the moral law is laid out in the Bible are, can we just add stuff to the transcendent law as we learn?
I mean, what is, what is in the transcendent law? Is it not the 10 commandments that allows us to see parts of the transcendent law or what are we, what are we putting that category then?
We would say the 10 commandments represent God's moral character. Therefore we do see transcendent law in the 10 commandments, but we wouldn't say the 10 commandments as a unit remains a unit.
That's where we're talking about the unit of the law as a, as a covenant, the covenant.
See people talk about the 10 commandments as if the Bible says, this is God's moral law. I know what the Bible says is the 10 commandments are
God's covenant made with it, with Israel. This is the covenant I have made with you. That's why I believe it includes a
Sabbath because the Sabbath is the sign given to Israel that demonstrates that they are in fact part of the covenant that covenant sign.
See Noah was given the rainbow. Abraham was given circumcision. What was Moses given?
According to Exodus, he was given the Sabbath as a sign of that covenant.
Therefore the covenant document, which is the 10 commandments certainly would have the covenant sign in the document.
But does that make the Sabbath transcendent law? My answer would be no. And I've done a public debate on that, on why
I don't believe the Sabbath is transcendent moral law. Therefore I can't hold that the 10 commandments is transcendent moral law because as a unit, it stands or falls as a unit.
Okay. So yeah, I guess I'm asking biblically though, how do we differentiate between what's transcendent law and what isn't?
How do you say that's transcendent, but that isn't biblically. First way is that which is found outside of all the covenant.
So things that were wrong during the time of Abraham, such as adultery, we, you know, Abimelech said to Abraham, why did you let your wife come into my house?
Didn't you know you were doing wrong? He understood that it was wrong, even though he didn't have a covenant to tell him that, even though he didn't have a written code that told him that there are things that we see that are wrong throughout.
And if it's something that is in the old covenant and in the new covenant, if it's written clearly in both, then we would say that's an example of transcendent moral law, such as homosexuality, which is found in both
Leviticus 18 and first Corinthians chapter nine, both of which are referring to the same thing.
A man having sex with a man is wrong and we don't, it's not only in one or the other, it's in both.
So it's a timeline issue. Okay. I was going to actually ask you this, Keith. And so I'm really glad Greg brought it up because when you were talking,
I had a curiosity. I think you may end up agreeing with me a bit, but you know, like, so like Greg's asking biblically, how do you support it?
But one of the struggles I've had, Greg, with the tripartite division is I don't,
I don't see that in scripture either. Like, I don't see where you can take these. We have 613 laws and every law is moral.
So now we have to say, okay, now we're defining, you know, because that's what a law is. It's a, it's a morality.
And so I, I don't, I've never seen a list. Maybe it's out there that, that breaks up the, is it though?
Is it though? I mean, it's really quick. I don't mean to interrupt, but is every law moral because we have lots of regulations in this country that doesn't distinguish about what the moral outcome is.
It's, it's a rule. So, I mean, it's ruled that you do this, a priest wearing a certain garment. Is that a moral issue?
Well, it would be in the sense that it's do this. Don't do that. Right. Right. But I'm saying moral meaning right and wrong, right and wrong saying it's a sin to do it because God commands it.
But I'm saying, is it a, is it a moral issue? Yeah. If, if our every single law is, if we have as a law that says you, you can't smoke cigarettes unless you're over 18, if you're under 18, that's wrong.
If you're over 18, that's right. It's, it's a moral issue. I disagree. I would disagree on that just because I would say, just because something is legal or illegal, doesn't make it moral or immoral.
Well, okay. Now what we're discussing then is the standard, right? Right. So, so the, the issue by God's standard, if God's giving the laws and saying, do this, then that makes it right.
Yeah. And what does God say on smoking cigarettes at what age? Well, he doesn't talk about that, but, but, you know, like some of the things, that's my point, right.
The clothing to wear that, that would be a, you know, for now. So, so the way that I kind of break it up though, and, and maybe it's because, you know, again, my
Jewish background, we would talk about laws of separation or holiness laws. And so they were for the purpose of keeping
Israel separate from the nations. And so I, I don't know anyone that breaks it up this way, but Keith, what you're saying with transcendent is very similar, maybe.
And I'll use what you said with Sabbath and use that as the example. So I look at it as universal laws, laws that are because we're created in the image of God, laws for all people of all times, whether Jewish, Gentile, believer, unbeliever, it's always wrong for everybody to lie.
That applies to everybody. Yeah. Transcendent law. And then
I would see laws to the nation of Israel and laws to the church. And, and so I would end up seeing a, so, so when
I look at say the Sabbath, I'm going to see a law for the Sabbath that would be universal. That was on the seventh day of creation, right?
That is a day of rest, but then we have the law to Israel, which added a whole lot more to that.
And so we don't see a command for the Sabbath in the New Testament.
So, you know, New Covenant theology would sometimes refer to the law of Christ, which is what I'm calling a kind of law to the church.
But I would still say we're under a Sabbath, not the law to Israel Sabbath, but the original
Sabbath that's transcendent, if you want to use that word, to all people. That universal Sabbath that we have one day set aside, we do not work, that's supposed to be for the purpose of worshiping
God. And so I would say that that we would still have, but we don't have all the parts that Moses gave.
So let me have you guys interact with that. Well, I, this could take a little while.
So I'm going to, I'm going to be very, very succinct. One, I did a public debate on this subject where I debated a
Presbyterian on the question of whether or not Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. He said, yes. I said, no.
I believe the Sabbath was a shadow, which is fulfilled in Christ. The rest that was pictured in the old covenant is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ who said, come unto me, all ye who are weary and heavy laden.
And I will give you Shabbat. I will give you Sabbath. I'll give you rest, right? So there's a, there is a rest that we have in Christ.
Hebrews chapter four says that we have to be careful not to fail to enter that rest. The rest that's there is not a day, but it's a state of being.
It's a state of being at rest in him. Now, some people might argue that that's a rest that comes in the, in the millennium.
My pre -millennial brother might say that, but at least we're saying that the rest that's being referred to, there is not a day.
It is a, it is a state of being in rest. And so the, the, a good point that I, I believe it was
Riesinger who actually made this point. He said that at the end of creation, God says, everything is very good. And he rests rested, but immediately after the fall, a new work began.
It wasn't the work of creation. It was the work of redemption. And when did the work of redemption end?
It ended when Jesus said to Telestai, it is finished. The work of redemption is done. And therefore that rest that was entered into on the seventh day is pictured again.
And the rest that we have in Christ who said it is finished, it is done and we rest in him. And so do
I believe that once a week is a, is a good and wholesome and right way of circulating our time and taking a day off.
And that's good. Yes. But I don't believe that we have a legal command or restriction that would say that if I choose to go bowling on Sunday or whatever, that I'm breaking
God's moral law. And that's where I would make the distinction is I think that there is a, there is a cycle of work and rest that the
Bible gives us. And I don't think what I don't think we're bound to a Sabbatarian, particularly a
Puritanical. And again, everybody loves the Puritans. I love Puritans, but there is a Puritan, a
Puritanical Sabbath demand that wasn't even kept by the, by the continental reformed.
It was, it was the Puritan reformed who kept the Sabbatarian restriction that brought in what
I would say is a confusing standard because you have guys, I'll go to a restaurant. I won't go to a restaurant.
I'll do this. I won't do that. I'll let my kids play games, but they can't play games if they, if it causes them to throw a ball or whatever, and you end up being, becoming, you know, almost pharisaical again, and you're in the way that it's applied.
And that's where the big issue is for me is, is when I see it being applied in a way that creates a standard on the people of God, that is not, not biblical.
So that's, yeah. Yeah. So I heard you say you debated a Presbyterian, but I, I would have to say
I'm lining up a little bit more with you on that subject. I'm not a Sabbatarian. Well, I'm not a
Sabbatarian in that, you know, that extreme Shiite Sabbatarian, as they might say, right?
Like you're a Sunni. Much like my theonomy,
I'm more of a general equity, right? Sabbatarian meaning kind of what you're explaining and kind of what you're talking about, even in transcendent law.
And it, you know, it behooved me to, to quote out of the Westminster confess, confession here, but even says when we're talking about that chapter 19 in section four to them also at body politic, he gave sundry judicial law, which expired together with the state.
So after Israel is no longer a state is expired of that people, not obliging any other now further than the general equity thereof, that may be required.
So I know this is getting into theonomy a little bit, and we don't want to go there because we're not doing a four hour podcast.
All right. We're not all Joe Rogan's, but the way you're explaining that, even the
Sabbath, I would say I probably wouldn't be to the extreme of who you debated. I would probably line up a little more with you under that general equity law, meaning no, it's good to rest.
Now, what day is that? I don't know if I have a sound biblical answer to say it has to be this day.
Listen to my, listen to my sermon, listen to my sermon from last week. I literally preached on Easter.
Why Sunday is the Lord's day. And take it for what you will. I don't, I don't know if you're going to agree, disagree, but you got 50 minutes of listening to do, and then you can tell me where I'm wrong.
Well, there you go. We're going to come back and finish this discussion on another episode. I am.
I'm not a Sabbatarian, but I'm probably the strongest Lord's guy, Lord's day guy that I know.
Oh, I look forward to your it's, it's the Lord's day, dude. A meme every week. Are you kidding me?
I get up and I go, where is it? And what's funny is the early church made such a strong distinction.
If you read the early fathers, they said, we are not keeping the Sabbath. We are keeping the Lord's day, the day
Jesus rose. And there was a distinction that was made, you know, even at the council, which is not early church, but, but you say primitive church, we have a council of Laodicea where it says specifically, we do not keep the
Jewish Sabbath. And if you do, you're wrong. Like, this is what, this is where like the seventh day Adventist, they were called out 1600 years ago.
It said, if you're keeping the Jewish Sabbath, you are wrong. We do not keep the Jewish Sabbath. We keep the Lord's day, which is the day
Jesus rose, which is the first day of the week. I mean, it's very clear, very clear. So we woke
Keith up. You start talking about the Sabbath. There we go. I love it. Sorry.
I'm going to go listen to your sermon too, brother. I will. Yeah. I think it'd be good to do that.
And you know, maybe we will have to have a reconvening after that. See if we're all convinced of, but here's, here's one thing.
I did get one thing wrong. Remember I said, I always correct myself if I was wrong. I did. I said that, because I quoted from the epistle to epistle
Barnabas, because Barnabas references the Lord's day as Sunday. And I quoted from it. And I said that the epistle
Barnabas is in the moratorium fragment, which is the first Canon that's been discovered the first list of books.
And I wasn't arguing that it was scripture. I was just saying it was a respected book, but I was wrong. It was actually in a different later writing.
And I said the moratorium fragment and I'm, and I really wishing I hadn't said that because somebody is going to hear me say that and say,
Oh, this guy doesn't know anything because he misspoke about the moratorium. I think you're pretty safe.
Not too many people are going to know. The fact that you brought up Barnabas. No, I just, you know, I think you're a QA non Trump, green frog,
Pepe. An interesting thing for folks who are listening.
I mean, look, we're, we're from three different camps. If you want to say that, three different ways of interpretation.
That's really when it comes down to, what's the difference with the three different things, you know, dispensationalism, covenant theology, progressive covenantalism.
It's how we're going to interpret, right? It's, it's the hermeneutic that we're going to apply when we're coming to scripture.
We're going to have some differences, but yet listen to us, discuss these things and hear how we each are having give and take with one another.
We're each because we're engaging with what the scriptures are saying. And I think a lot of times when we talk theology, we can be more abrasive, but when we talk scripture, we end up finding a lot more agreement.
Yeah. Amen. Yeah. And I think that's a good thing for folks to think about when we're having these discussions, instead of saying, this is what, you know, the
Westminster, the 1689 or whatever your confessional statement is says, or, you know, what so -and -so said, what does scripture say?
Like, let's, let's interact with the interpretation and ask the question, how are you coming to that interpretation?
Yeah. Because maybe you realize, Hey, they're making a really good point. Yeah, absolutely.
I do a little segment on my podcast called fresh 10 Keith. What do you think? And I know I did it with Keith. What do you think as we close this down here, we do fresh 10 with Andrew and get to know him a little bit more.
What do you think? I will say that the one thing, and I was glad that I knew this beforehand, when you asked
Keith, the one question, what do people, I forget how you worded it, but what, what do you, what is the one thing that people don't know about you and Keith, you, you know, you had, you had mentioned to me that you, you got,
I forget which degree, what degree you are in black belt in karate. Black belt. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But you've got a fifth, right?
Yeah. Fifth degree black belt in Shotokan karate and a second degree black belt in modern Arnese. You should have been the
Harbor freight, Jeff Durbin. I look more like I look more like he's a fifth degree black belt as well,
I believe. I know, but I look like the thing that ate Jeff Durbin. Stop. And, and, you know,
Greg, for folks, my podcast may not know you a bit is you're you, I mean, you do the podcast.
You're very theologically astute, but you actually are a politician.
I'm a public servant. I don't like the, I don't like the term politician. So, yeah,
I mean, just locally, just locally as a County commissioner. Yeah. And then you had a lot, I mean, that really interested me when we were talking and you were, you, you talked about why you got into that and what you were doing.
And I, I was like, wow, okay. You know, so maybe since we're all on each other's podcast, maybe just real quick, like talk about your background.
Cause I think, I think my audience might get an interest in that. And we talked about Keith and his brilliance in humor.
He's a pastor. And by the way, I will mention folks, if you do have a free, a free
Institute that people could take, right? So. Sovereigngraceacademy .org.
If anybody's interested, we have a class starting this Sunday on how we got the Bible. It's an eight week course.
The entire Academy is a two year program where we take you through old Testament, new Testament, hermeneutics, church history, apologetics.
There's eight core classes, each one are eight weeks long. And if you do the full two years, you'll get a diploma of basic ministry training from our
Academy. Yeah. Okay. And now is that also from, can we get the link from the website? Cause I'm going to, I'm going to link your website, at least in my show notes,
I can't speak for Greg and Keith, but for the rap report podcast, we're going to have the show in the show notes will be a link to his, his church.
Cause you know, sgfcjacks .org is. Yeah. And you, and they can just go to Academy.
It's sgfcjacks .org slash Academy. Yep. Cause it's jacks with an X by the way.
So Greg is cool like that. Also. I also have a Dundee. This is, you tell me you've earned, this is my official
Dundee. I don't know if you know what that is. I don't know. Yeah, sure. Yeah. On the office. Yeah. It's from the show called the office.
This says Dr. M Keith Foskey superior theology Dundee. So I keep this right next to just to show.
Yeah. Well, you guys better watch out because now that I've technically been on the podcast with you, you guys are going into my reformed.
Well, we might have to just, you know, get Andrew in there, but I'm going to go into my reform podcast bracket next year.
Dr. James White won it this year and I sent him the trophy, but we've got probably 30 more going like others and put me up against someone like, you know, someone had a contest of like modern day theologians and round one,
I was up against Phil Johnson. I was like, are you serious? I was glad the next year I was up against Al Mohler and I almost,
I almost won, which just tells you how far. Yeah. On the first round,
I put cross politic against dividing line. And I had a chocolate Knox from cross politic message.
I mean, he goes really, dude, you're going to do as dirty like that. You know, we're going to lose, you know, and they, you know, they, they got hundreds of thousands of listeners, but you just, you gotta be careful when you're going up against Dr.
White. But yeah, just very quickly. I know we've been going a little bit on this podcast, but I'm in always been involved in politics in some way.
My senior thesis in high school was written on the buying of Congress and the double standard of hypocrisy. So I was always very interested in that.
I worked on some campaigns. I was a legislative liaison. I was part of the cabinet for some senators in Michigan would read over bills and look at it and tell them this is good.
This isn't. And then in 2016, moved down to where I live now in temperance,
Michigan went to my County commissioner had an issue, a land issue. And he goes, I don't know, figure it out.
And I said, well, how about I just take your job? And he goes, well, you know, I've I've had this position for 12 years and my wife's a school board, you know, teacher, and I've lived down here 50 years.
You've just moved down here last year. And I said, okay. So I went out and knocked 8 ,000 doors, introduced myself one by the largest margin in that district in the last 20 years.
And then successfully have won 16, 18, 20, 22, and then 24. They're changing us to four -year terms.
But as a County commissioner sit over all County administration issues like the Sheriff's department, health department, any
County body, we sit over that budget and we're the legislative arm of a
County. So not quite the state level, not as, you know, not quite as far down as like township or city or village, but kind of in that middle where, where you have
County programs that need to be seen and had some effect there.
We have created some legislation on second amendment rights and things like that, that we've introduced into the
County, which providentially through the Lord became COVID introduced a second amendment issue that said, if the
Sheriff did anything unconstitutional, we wouldn't fund him his $38 million or $28 million at that time.
And lo and behold, two months later we have COVID and we had our governor here in Michigan who was you know, the big
Gretch as they called her. She was a mini news Gavin Newsom, just copying everything he did very restrictive.
And our County was one of the only counties in the state of Michigan that didn't put people in jail for not wearing a mask and didn't give them fines.
And because we had written a resolution that says, Hey, you do anything unconstitutional and we're not going to fund you. And he wanted his $30 million.
So by the purse strings, we were able to at least keep him in line there a little bit. So I've been doing that since 2000.
What's that? I wish more counties did that. Me too. So I'm one of those weird guys where, um,
I think that believers, I believe in Romans 13, uh, that's a whole nother podcast.
If we want to get into what it means to submit to authorities and those civil governments that God has put into authority.
I think there's very specific things that the government is supposed to do that God has instituted bring justice to evildoers and protect the righteous.
And when your government does do that, there's some issues there, but I'm a big believer in, in Christian standing on biblical principles, um, getting involved in local politics, um, or state or federal and, um, in representing
Christ in government as well. But that's my quick, uh, two minute, uh, commercial.
He was more than two minutes. Yeah, it was like five minutes. I know. I'm sorry. I'm a talker, but what do you say?
You want to do fresh 10 really quick, Andrew, and see if you can answer these questions. It's your show. All right, here. It's my show.
He says, all right, here we go. All right.
Question number one, we're going to start off easy and we're going to start off secular. So as we've been talking about theology, but who's your favorite actor,
Andrew, and why? And these are quick. We don't want 10 minute answers. Give us. Real easy.
I'm pop culture illiterate. So I, I probably don't have a favorite actor. Keith, Keith will be my favorite actor because he does a great job acting all the time.
What do you wish someone, uh, what, what's something you wish you had known 10 years ago? Oh, a ton of things.
We don't have enough time, but, uh, probably keep my mouth shut more. That's always good advice.
All right. You're going to the Island. You're stranded. What three albums are you taking with you? Okay. So I really didn't acknowledge
I'm pop culture illiterate. I don't, I don't listen to music at all. Would you take some sermons? Would you take some audio books?
Give us something. So I'll put it this way. I would take, um, if I had books, if it was a choice of books, okay.
Probably, uh, turnarks, uh, attributes, uh, in existence and attributes of God would be one, um, obviously the
Bible, but you're going to say that that doesn't count. Uh, no, but, uh, let's see what, what else?
So I have three books. I'd probably take that. Uh, I, I, I might take
Pilgrim's Progress just cause I do enjoy reading that. Yeah. Very classic, a classic.
Um, I guess, uh, I guess, uh, there'd be a bit too that I could think of offhand.
Okay. Thank God. Cause as a dipsy, I thought you were going to say the left behind series. I'd say, no, I am totally use that to burn, to keep you warm.
Good Lord. I've never, I've never read them, but I watched movies. Uh, I, I kind of skimmed enough of them, but I don't,
I just don't think they're, they may be entertaining, but like the theology I see from it, from what
I'm, I, I expand like, yeah, no, no, you've just read too much into it. All right. Question number four, moving right along.
What properties do you try to buy when you're playing monopoly? The monopoly boards out. What are you going for? The cheap stuff, the expensive stuff, the railroads, what's up?
All of them. It's monopoly. You're just buying it all and hope you don't go broke.
I like it. What movie can you watch over and over? Question number five. What's one you can just pop in and watch and watch it multiple times.
I don't really watch a lot of movies. I will say one, probably my favorite movie is probably, um, fireproof with Kirk Cameron.
Yeah, that is good. I really enjoyed that and I have watched it multiple times. It's because you got those left behind books.
You son of a gun. I knew it. All right. Number six time machine. Would you rather go back in time to visit your ancestors or go into the future and visit your great, great grandchildren?
So you're going back to visit great great grandfather or going forward to great great grandchildren. I don't want to break the tradition on your, on your show.
I know all the post mills say they want to go to the future. Look with the current administration.
I don't know how much of a future there is. I mean, we can only go ahead a thousand years. Okay. I probably,
I probably would want to go back in the time of Christ. I would, I mean, it would be, I was in Israel recently and to, to be in Israel with Christ, man, that'd be neat.
But based upon the rules of time travel, if you time travel from the point that you're at to that same point, 2000 years ago, you'd be in America 2000 years ago, which would be a real rough to be.
You, you couldn't get to Israel. So nevermind. I just, I just went straight. Stop getting so technical you nerd.
I don't know about you, but my trot time travel machine has longitude and Levitt longitude. So I can do both.
All right. Number seven, moving right along. What's the best piece of advice someone has ever given you?
And I was actually going to bring this up earlier, but the best piece of advice I ever had was from my first pastor.
When I told him I felt called to be in ministry and he told me learn to sit in a pew.
And I really didn't understand the value of that until I got into ministry and saw people that go right from high school to college, right into ministry.
And you have pastors who never learned to be church members. They just were always on that leadership track and always treated to be that we're out.
And they never learned or understood what it's like being a member of a church. And I really valued that. It really did help me quite a bit.
All right. This one's a little loaded the way I worded. Are you wanting those, one of those annoying, happy morning persons, one of those fun night guys?
Both. Both. That's super. What do you mean both? He doesn't sleep. My wife made me promise that to marry her, one of the agreements
I had to agree to sleep every night because she discovered I only slept about, I would sleep from three 30 to seven 30 every like other day.
And that was it. And so, yeah, I feel like you just run on John MacArthur commentaries and pickle juice.
There's nothing wrong with that. But I, the beauty of that, I'll give you the advantage. My, my daughter is a night person.
My son is a morning person. So when they were growing up, I got the advantage. I would spend the mornings with my son early before everyone else was up.
And then when everyone else went to sleep, I got to spend time with my daughter. So I got to, to get the best of both with that. I love it.
Two left. Here we go. Question number nine. What is one thing people would assume about you, but isn't true? I think a lot of people assume that I'm, I'm an extrovert because I ended up talking a lot and actually what it, what it actually is.
I didn't discover this till much later. I have an issue where I can't tune out multiple conversations. So if I'm in, if I'm in an area where there's a lot of people, when
I talk, it actually silences other conversations. And, and that caused me to talk a lot.
And so people tend to think like I, so it makes me have difficulty when there's silence. And so people think like really an extrovert and I'm actually not that much of an extrovert.
Just trying to fill the silence. All right. Last one. And appropriately so since we've been talking all night about it, who is one theologian dead or alive that you would want to interview on your podcast?
Well, you're expecting it to be like Schofield. I understand, but dead or alive.
If I, I would probably, it's a hard one. There's a lot of good ones.
I mean, you know, part of me thinks like it'd be really neat because MacArthur has such a big influence on me.
But then you, you go back in the time and there's so many, I mean like John Owens, I would love to just have like to have an hour of discussion with John Owen.
Like that's like a seminary degree right there. So that it's, that's a tough one.
That's a tough one. All right. Well, that was underwhelming last question. A non answer from Andrew.
And he is fresh. He's got the freshest shirt on. Look at that print on that college shirt. I love it.
I was afraid with Keith here. I had to come dressed. I don't have to. Am I dressed as the big
Eva guy or which I don't, I don't know. Yeah. All right. Wrap us up. I'm going,
I'm going home soon. I'm going to bed. The way that I wrap up the rap report is to say, and that's a wrap.
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