TLP 105: Talking with Your Kids about God | Natasha Crain Interview

And I think that intimidates a lot of Christian parents, honestly, because a lot of us aren't scientists. I'm not a scientist. We look at these things and we think, oh my gosh, I'm never going to understand the intricacies of it, so I'm just going to have to teach my kids, you know, science doesn't disprove God because God exists and we have the Bible.

Introducing Natasha Crain and Her Ministry

Welcome to Truth.

Love.

Parents. Where we use God's Word to become intentional, premeditated parents. Here's your host, A .M. Brewster.

If you haven't yet been introduced to Natasha Crane, I'm happy to be facilitating that for you today. I was first introduced to Natasha earlier this year via her blog, and it took really only a handful of those very theologically crisp articles to know that I needed to have her on the show.

And then after reading her first book, Keeping Your Kids on God's Side, I contacted her straight away. And she was gracious enough to not only come onto the show and do a three-part episode about children's devotionals, her book, and a parenting Q &A, but she also allowed me to join the launch team for her new book, Talking With Your Kids About God.

If you'd like to hear her previous interviews, please check out episodes 65 through 67. And now, 40 episodes later, after her second book has been successfully launched, and though we have never met in person, Natasha has gone from an admired author to a sweet sister in Christ to someone I'd count as a friend.

Thank you for joining us today, Natasha. How are you?

I'm doing great. How are you doing?

I'm doing really well. I got some better sleep last night. That's huge. Hugely important. How is, how's the fam?

Everyone's doing well. We're just keeping up with school and all of the normal family stuff and yeah, so everything's going really well.

Now, your kids, I'm really sorry that I forget this. They all go to a school, correct?

Right.

They go to a private elementary school, a Christian elementary school.

That's right. That's right. In fact, yeah, okay. Actually, you know what? I just saw something that you posted on Facebook about that. It's all coming back to me now.

Awesome.

Well, I'm really super glad that you are here with us. And for the people out there who don't know you and who have never maybe heard you or read any of your things, why don't you go ahead and start off by just kind of telling us what exactly it is you do?

Yeah, well, I'm a writer and a speaker and I focus on the subject of Christian parenting in a secular world and all that that encompasses. A lot of times that means that I'm writing or speaking about apologetics specifically, so for those who aren't familiar with the term who might be listening, it's basically making a case for and defending the truth of the Christian faith.

And so I write to equip parents with an understanding of what the challenges are today in living in a secular world, what their kids are going to encounter, and then importantly, how we address those as parents and what are the things that we need to talk about with our kids in order to make sure that they're equipped to deal with this kind of world.

And you write about this because these are things that you've experienced, no doubt, in your own life. You talk about the things that people are going to encounter out there, and you kind of encountered that in your life.

Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, well, when I started my blog, I blog at ChristianMomThoughts .com or at my name NatashaCrain .com. I started it in 2011 and it was actually six years ago this month that I started it and I just started a general Christian parenting blog.

I didn't even know what apologetics meant at the time, so six years ago, I had no idea what it was that I'm actually talking about today and writing books about, which is kind of an interesting path that I've been on, but it was, long story short, it was very much an accident that I came to understand these subjects and the importance of them because people started attacking me on my blog, skeptics, and they would leave comments and send emails and just challenge everything that I was saying about Christianity and saying I was indoctrinating my kids and things like that.

And you said, yes, I am. Well, I'm teaching them doctrine, but hopefully I'm not teaching them to think uncritically. Yes, I always like to make that distinction. We don't want to indoctrinate in the sense of teaching kids to not think critically, but we want to teach them accurate doctrine.

So, yeah, so over time, I realized how important it was to really prepare kids in a way that most of us, as if we grew up in Christian families, didn't have to prepare for as much and there's a big kind of generational gap.

And so that's why I'm working to hopefully educate parents through my blog about what those challenges are today, the things that I've encountered and that their kids will certainly encounter.

Yeah.

And you're doing a great job of it. I really appreciate that. If you guys haven't checked it out yet, you can find, obviously it's Christian Mom Thoughts or Natasha Crane, but we also have a link on our website.

In fact, yours was the very first blog that we linked in our resource page. So there you go.

Thank you.

And so you've been writing online and you've been speaking and next thing you know, you're writing a book and we actually did a whole episode on that. And now your second book has been published, which is very cool.

And I finished reading it and honestly, just completely genuine, transparent. I think it's amazing. And I do want to, I want to talk about it in a way here with the listeners. That's not only informative so that everyone goes out and buys it, you know, but also I want them to start putting it into practice in their parenting today.

I want us to be able to receive some solid takeaways that they can use today with their.

Kids.

So you're ready to undertake all of this?

Absolutely.

Very cool.

Let's do it.

Awesome.

First though, I do have a personal question as an author or I don't know, I don't really have anything published yet. I write a lot of stuff, but anyway, I'm curious, what is your favorite part of the whole process of writing a book?

Hmm.

That's a good question. In terms of the actual process of writing a book, I'd have to say that when I'm maybe like 30 of the way into the book, that's a good point for me. You know, when you're just staring at a blank page, I am right now because I'm beginning work on my third book and I'm sitting there in a blank for a document, that's not a happy place because it feels overwhelming.

And when you get to the end of the book, no matter how happy you felt at different times writing the book about what you were writing, you're second guessing yourself and you're thinking, I should have done this or I should have done that.

And so that's not the greatest place either. But when you're like 30 of the way through, you still like, you know, you have a lot of territory to cover and so you're creating the book, but you haven't just been staring at a blank screen.

I think that's a great place to be. And then just about writing a book in general, you know, I think my favorite part of being an author and having that opportunity is just, I'm writing about something that I feel there truly is a need for.

And so it's always kind of hard when I'm out trying to promote the book and tell people about the book because it always comes across, you know, I think in people's minds like, well, this author is promoting the book and that's what you're doing.

But really I am promoting the need to understand the content that's in the book. And I wish that I could, you know, communicate that better to people because I think a lot of times people just think you're out talking about a book, but really it's the content and it's the need to get Christian parents today equipped with this kind of understanding and so few are.

So writing a book that you truly feel is needed by parents and especially in this all important subject matter for me is the best part of having the opportunity.

And for the Christian, it's that much cooler because if you've done your job, then really what you're promoting is God's truth and you're helping people to apply that. So yeah, that's really amazing. OK, so talking with your kids about God, which is this new book that's just come out, it was written basically to equip Christian parents to become apologists, like you said, but also to teach their children how to do the same thing, to be apologists.

And you've already defined it for us, but once you go ahead and define it again, how do you like to define the word apologist?

I like to say that apologetics is about making the case for and defending the truth of Christianity. So in other words, an apologist is someone who knows why there's good reason to believe that Christianity is true and shares that with others.

A lot of times if people know what the word apologetics is, they think of it simply as defending the faith. But I think it's so important to add on making a case for and defending the faith and giving credit where credit is due.

I get that from J. Warner Wallace, who very much emphasizes this idea of being a case maker and presenting it proactively. We're not just sitting here catching darts that the world throws at us and say, okay, if someone says that the Bible has contradictions, then I say this.

Yes, we need to know how to answer those objections, but it's even more important, I believe, to make the offensive case and explain, but what evidence is there that Christianity is true? Anyone from any religion can pick off objections and have answers for those, but only Christianity can really make the case where all the evidence is pointing so strongly to it being true.

So that's really how I see apologetics, is making the case for and defending the truth of Christianity.

Christians as Apologists and 1 Peter 3:15

And I think it'd be really wise for all of us right here to stop right now and ask ourselves, okay, can we say that our children are apologists? Can we say that I am an apologist as the parent? Obviously we all have room to grow, but I think answering that question honestly is going to show us really how important this is.

Are our children able to go out there and make a defense and to present a case for Christ? And as you were talking, I was thinking about 1 Peter 3 15, which says, But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.

I mean, that's like the apologist's life verse, and I think it has both ideas in there. Yes, you're making the defense, but also it's not just making a defense against someone who attacks you, but making a defense for someone who asks you a reason.

Why do you believe what you believe? And I think that is huge. Therefore, obviously, you know, we parents need to be passionate about our children being able to make this defense for their faith, and I think they need to be passionate for two reasons.

Number one, as loving, God-honoring parents, hopefully we want them to know why they believe what they believe. And then two, we want them to be strong testimonies of God's goodness to others. Being able to gently and respectfully defend their faith makes them a brighter light and a salt to your salt, which again is a huge part of our parenting.

So with that goal in mind, talking with your kids about God, it's divided into five parts. You have it broken up into the existence of God, science in God, the nature of God, believing in God, and the difference God makes.

Now, we actually just finished up here on the show, a series called The Mirrors to Christianity, and we took five episodes to discover, basically just to work down, to answer the question, why do our children do what they do?

And by the way, if any of you listening today, if you haven't heard that yet, I strongly encourage you to start at episode 95. One of our listeners named Kara, she said of the series, I'm loving this newest series.

The series is meeting me right where I am right now, and I can say that this particular study in my life, which started a decade ago, has been the most significant study and understanding of God's truth ever.

So I'm mentioning all this because I absolutely loved part four of your book, which was about believing in God. And obviously if anyone heard the series, I know exactly why I loved part four just from hearing the title.

But interestingly enough, that's not the part of the book I want to discuss today. That's not the section I want to focus on because I think there's something else that we really need to talk about. Something that we haven't really discussed too much on this show.

Science, God, and the Limits of Scientific Proof

Recently my family and I went to the Ark Encounter, which is in Kentucky, and it was amazing. I think everyone who has the opportunity should go. Answers in Genesis has the Ark Encounter and the Creation Museum.

Fantastic, fantastic places. But while I was there, I was reminded of the time that Ken Ham, who is in charge of Answers in Genesis, and Bill Nye had their first and their second debates about creationism and evolutionism.

Natasha, did you happen to see those debates?

Yeah, I've seen part of them. I have not watched the whole thing, but part.

Did you grow up watching Bill Nye like I did?

I didn't. I was not familiar with him until he came on my radar as someone who was constantly criticizing any idea of God and getting into these debates and really taking science to another level where it doesn't need to be.

And so I became familiar with him through that, but I had not grown up watching him like so many people did.

Oh yeah, I did. I was a child of the 90s, and man, I loved it. And for the most part, when he wasn't dealing with evolution, he was solid. But he's become this bitter, illogical, hard, intolerant man, and it's just sad to see what he's become.

In fact, my son one day was watching an old Bill Nye episode, knowing the new Bill Nye, knowing what he's become. And my son, who's such a sensitive soul, he started crying, and we're like, what's wrong,.

Bud?

And he said, it's just so sad that Bill Nye knows so much and that he doesn't trust God. It was just so beautiful. And it's because of people like Bill that there's been this kind of renewed interest in using science within the realm of pop culture to try to basically disprove God.

Now, obviously, don't get me wrong, people have been trying to use science, quote unquote, to disprove God for centuries, especially within academic circles. But nowadays it's everywhere. I mean, it's in education, it's in television, social media, and movies.

So, I want to focus on part two of your book, Science and God. Now, I want you to talk about your book, but only after I'm done talking. I know I've already been talking too long, but I just want to set the stage with one real-life example, just from my own life, hopefully that will illustrate the importance of this.

To make a long story short, there was this boy who graduated from the Christian school in which I used to teach, who, though he professed to be a Christian, he wasn't. And let me tell you, it took less than a semester, less than one semester in the local community college before.

He literally was one of the most outspoken atheists I knew. He would argue all the finer points of evolutionary theory with me, and he'd do it for hours on Facebook. And it all started with his science classes in college.

Now, keep in mind that before that semester in college, he had sat in at least four years of Christian school science classes. Now, all of our children are going to have to face this at some point or another.

Now, we hope that when they do, they will be born again and have the power of the Holy Spirit in them. But if they go to a public school, it's going to be a daily battle. And even if they go to a Christian school or a home school, God wants them to be redemptively interacting with the world.

And if they are interacting in that way, it's not going to take long for issues like this to arise. I mean, I remember encountering it in my very first food service job at the age of 15. I mean, some person, you know, finds out I'm a Christian, the next thing you know, they got these questions for me.

So Natasha, in the concept of science and God, where should we start?

Well, that is, it's a big question, obviously, and it was funny because I was doing a radio interview a couple of weeks ago, and the interviewer just started throwing out questions from the.

Book.

And I remember like one of the first questions that she threw out was, you know, do science and religion contradict one another? And it's so hard to answer those questions in such a brief kind of frame of time.

And it's not because there aren't good answers and important answers. It's just because there are so many nuances involved. And unfortunately, our culture moves at this speed where everyone just expects there to be really brief and quick answers to everything, you know.

Give me a Twitter answer.

Yeah, exactly. No, science does not disprove God, and we're all supposed to be happy with that, right? Well, okay, you have to get into the nuances. And I think that intimidates a lot of Christian parents, honestly, because a lot of us aren't scientists.

I'm not a scientist myself. And we look at these things and we think, oh my gosh, I'm never going to understand the intricacies of it. So I'm just going to have to teach my kids, you know, of course, science doesn't disprove God because God exists and we have the Bible, which is kind of a circular argument if you're looking at it from an outsider's perspective.

So we do have to get our hands dirty and we have to get into the details of the conversation so that we're not left just kind of grappling around trying to deal with the world's claims because they'll just keep putting the claims at us and piling on and piling on and piling.

On.

And if we don't know how to see this from a bigger picture perspective to kind of look at this using some kind of framework, then we're going to get buried and the same with our kids. So with that in mind, that's all the background context, I would say.

You know, that's really what the chapter in my science and God section are focused on is getting parents that bigger picture perspective and framework for having these conversations. So when you say where should we start, I would say chapter 7 is the first one in that section and it talks about the question, can science prove or disprove God's existence?

And such an important question to understand because so often it just gets tossed around that science has disproven God somehow and I get these comments on my blog all the time and it's a favorite thing for atheists to say, but just to kind of clear the deck here, when we talk about proving and disproving things, that's something that science isn't even in the business of doing.

Proofs and disproofs, strictly speaking, are for an area like mathematics where you're actually talking about mathematical proofs. And this isn't a controversial claim that I'm making or one that Christians make.

Even atheists like Jerry Coyne, I quote him in the book and he says, you know, science is not about proving or disproving anything. It's looking at where the weight of the evidence points, right? So when people use a vocabulary of proof and disprove with respect to science, we're talking about wrong terminology within that context to start with.

So no, science does not disprove God because science doesn't strictly disprove anything. And it's the same with does science prove God? No, because science doesn't strictly prove anything. So that's kind of a starting point for discussion.

Now that being said, just because someone uses kind of terminology that's not technically accurate doesn't mean that we're in perfect shape because we can say, hey, we're going to set that aside because you can't say that in science.

We need to actually be able to engage with people, right? So the question is, you know, when people say God and when they say science, what do they mean by those two terms? And it might sound obvious to most people, well, God, you know, I worship God and the God of the Bible and God, the one that we all know and love, right?

But God is actually used in two very different senses by people and by atheists and Christians alike. Atheists, sometimes when they say God, they're simply talking about a supernatural being who may or may not exist.

They're not thinking of the God like Christians think about God. And then sometimes when atheists, especially someone like Richard Dawkins, who's a well known vocal atheist who criticizes religion a lot, sometimes when they're saying God, they're talking about God as conceived of by a specific religion like Christianity, the God of the Bible.

So we have to use that as a starting point. And here's here's the thing that I want more people to understand. A lot of times when atheists are just talking about the word God as a supernatural being who may or may not exist, they're not claiming that science is saying anything about that being.

And even Richard Dawkins acknowledges this. If you get people down to the definition of what they're saying with God and you find that what they're actually talking about is just any kind of supernatural being, most atheists will grant.

Yeah, science can say nothing about that supernatural being because science is in the business of looking at how our natural world works. And if we're by definition talking about something that may or may not exist outside of the natural world, then science can have nothing to say about that.

So from that perspective, there's no relationship between science and that meaning of God. So are you with me here? Is this making sense, Aaron?

I'm getting it. I'm loving it. In fact, I think, too, I want to make one quick observation. You keep using the term atheist and that's super important. But I think so many of the people who might be listening to this show, just to be fair, I think so oftentimes I think of the atheist as this category of collegiate or professors or people out there who are writing books about this.

But the reality is, if your children are in a public school, their teachers may be atheists. The people who are in classes with them often, many times, they are going to be atheists. So as Natasha is talking here, realize that this is not just something that your kids might encounter if they sneak into the wrong corners of Twitter.

All right. These are things that real people are having conversations with in their first jobs and in their schools. This is big. As she's talking, I have all these things flooding back to my mind and we parents need to be wise to realize that they're out there.

And I think what you're saying is awesome. You know, there's this quote I heard. I mean, I knew it, but I was reminded of it by one of the mama bears. Hillary quoted Voltaire. She said, if you wish to converse with me, define your terms.

And that is so important to clarify, obviously with the person you're talking with, but also with your children. Do they really know what science is? Do they know what God is? Do they do they understand how those two things interact?

They also obviously need to understand the misdefinitions of the words, because like you said, people are going to claim that science can do things that science can't do. And sometimes they make a claim that science disproves, disproves God.

But the God they're talking about is not the God we worship. So, yeah, I'm totally with you. That's super important.

Right. So, so, yeah. So in those cases, when a lot of times when atheists, especially like in skeptics, like you said, people who are in all walks of life, not just the creepy corners of Twitter somewhere, you know, a lot of times when people make these claims, they don't even really know what they're claiming.

They're just repeating what they have heard other places. So, yeah, we stop and we clarify that. But then if you get into it more and look at people like Richard Dawkins, who are really going after religion and the Bible specifically, then you get into areas where they are talking specifically about God and the God of the Bible.

And when you look at these arguments, what they're really doing, they're not talking about God so much as they're talking about specific claims that the Bible makes and how those claims of the Bible or any specific religion, when they intersect with something that can be investigated by science, how those things intersect.

And so when we're looking at that, there are most areas of science never even touch on the things that we're talking about. So if you think about all of the different areas of science that there are out there and to claim that science is this broad discipline somehow is disproving God or shows that God is very unlikely to exist, it is really this grandiose claim that has no founding.

What they're really talking about it when you boil it down, and this was the conclusion that I try to bring parents to it by the end of that chapter, is that when people say that science disproves God, what they're really saying is that certain branches of science and the mainstream scientific consensus in those areas contradict or in some way don't point to the same conclusions as some of the claims in the Bible.

And what those claims are specifically, as they go into show in the next chapter, really comes down, the two big things are the age of the earth and evolution. And so if we boil it all down from this huge, yes, science as this general broad discipline somehow disproves God, and you talk about the specifics of it and you get into the nuances, what they're really saying most of the time, and I'd say in my experience in interacting with skeptics, 97 of the time, they're talking about the age of the earth and evolution.

And so, yes, those are big issues that we need to talk about. And we need to know how to address this, and I go into that in the book. And in my first book, I had eight chapters that talk about the origins questions.

It's not that we need to ignore those things, but it's understanding, let's get specific when we're talking about these issues. And it's not science that's the hero here and science versus God or any of those things, let's talk about the specific issues.

And so that's really what I try to bring people back to when I get into these kinds of conversations. You know, it's funny because I wasn't planning to read any of this, you know, during our podcast here, but I had this email that I just got a couple of days ago, and I was going to talk about this in one of my talks I'm giving next week.

And the person's going on and on about how God doesn't exist. He says, also, the thing you call creation is definitely not real. It's just ignoring reality for more than 200 years. Although skilled archaeologists, scientists, paleontologists, biologists, and naturalists have worked for decades and come to a conclusion literally accepted by everyone who is sane and intelligent enough that the earth was created after the Big Bang, other than that nothing is considered real until it has been proven precisely by professional scientists and not Christian scientists, because they are just as unreasonable as other Christian people.

So in conclusion, please, please give me a link or any scientific study you have that says that the supernatural thing called God exists. And I promise to immediately believe in God and convert to being a Christian.

This is a perfect example of how science is held up today as, you know, you can't prove it by science. Well, do you realize that historians, generally speaking, aren't doing the bulk of their work using test tubes and science?

I mean, there are certain fields that are more scientific in nature, for example, archaeology. But, you know, you don't prove that George Washington existed using science. There's history involved. Historians do their work using a lot of different methods, including looking at eyewitness testimony and things like that.

So, you know, whenever someone heralds science in this way, to me, it really speaks more to they have fallen away from God for a variety of personal reasons that might be involved. And in looking to replace that hole that's left, that explanatory hole, they're taking on this narrative that's offered by people like Richard Dawkins and other well-known vocal atheists and skeptics about how important science is for everything.

And they've just plugged it in completely into that hole and turned it into something that it was never meant to be. And it can't be. In fact, making the claim that the only thing that anyone should believe in are things that can be proven by science is not a scientific statement.

So they're starting from a point of philosophy as well. So that's a long, long answer to your question. But again, it is a very nuanced kind of topic. And if we're going to speak reasonably with our kids and prepare them to engage reasonably with the world, then we have to be prepared to talk about these things and more so than at that cursory level of, no, of course not.

Science hasn't proven that God doesn't exist. OK, but mom and dad, but somebody says it does. So what now?

Yeah.

So many things are going through my head. One of the things is the fact that you mentioned earlier about how some people will just parrot what they've heard, right? And so many of the Facebook issues and things that we see are just people parroting what they heard from other people, not people who've actually done the research and studied it out.

We want our kids to not just be somebody who parrots what we say. A friend of mine has said, I don't want my kid to have my beliefs. I want them to have their own beliefs, but I want their beliefs to look an awful lot like mine.

You know, the idea here is I want them to know why they believe what they believe and to be able to defend, to be able to argue for it, not just be parroting, you know, what I say. And that's so important.

I also think it's interesting to note that he basically made it impossible for you to answer him. He said, you know, it has to be a scientist, but not this type of a scientist, not a Christian scientist has to be a certain kind of a scientist, a scientist who they themselves, because they reject the notion of God would never come to that conclusion, would never interpret the data in that way.

And he's basically made it impossible for you to answer it because he's not really looking for a logical, reasonable, well-researched answer. He's just looking for something, um, to reject. Honestly, he wants to believe in what he wants to believe in.

Yeah, it is, it is big.

And it's become more clear to me over time in the way that, um, skeptics will phrase comments like this when it's something that, um, when science has become just a mask or a cover up for a more emotional rejection of faith, that becomes really clear in how they write.

Cause it's more impassioned, you know, you can, you can feel the passion and not like a positive passion, but almost like an underlying anger, right? You know, please, please give me a link. And, and so, and there was actually more to this email in that it started, that was, you know, even more angry about how, you know, you shouldn't be raising your kids in a religious home.

They should choose all this stuff. And when I wrote back to him, you know, I, and I think this is important for parents to understand too, not to go too off course with our conversation, but I think this is an important point.

When I wrote back to him, I chose not to even engage him on the science claims because it was so clear to me that this was an emotional issue. And I said, you know, I just want to say that if someone who was a Christian or non-Christian has hurt you at some point, I'm really sorry that happened to you.

I, you know, engaging with people over time, I told him the same thing I just said to you Erin, I said engaging with people over time, there are kind of two different kinds of skeptics out there. Some are really interested in the evidence, discussing the evidence and going back and forth on it.

And some of them sound like there's more of a hurt that underlies it. And I said that I might be wrong, but that's kind of what I sense in your email. And I'm so sorry that that happened to you. But please know that just because someone who says they're a Christian does something wrong, doesn't mean they really were a Christian or that they're representing Christ because Christ would not have done that.

And I gave him a book recommendation. I recommended Greg Pockel's The Story of Reality because it's a, for people I think who have that kind of emotional reaction, Greg's book is very much kind of a, it's like a modern mere Christianity in a way.

And it gives this beautiful picture of the story of reality and Christianity. Some people are only reacting their rejection of Christianity to negative experiences, as I can almost guarantee this person is.

And I think offering them a resource like that, where they're getting an accurate understanding of at least what the Christian worldview is, is the more important first than getting into nuances about the science, because the science honestly here is a cover up and it so often is.

Helping Kids Think Clearly About Science and Faith

Yeah, so true. And this is piggybacking beautifully off of our last episode, which dealt with the fact that our kids need interpreters. They're being fed a delusion and they're being told what reality is, and they need help and seeing which is which.

And it's so huge. Okay, so real quick for all you parents out there who are listening to all this going, uh, this hurts. What am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to do this? Do I have to become a professor of science?