Revealed: Cru's Internal LGBTQ+ Documents

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We are live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I am your host John Harris I'm gonna jump right into it after a quick word from a sponsor and actually the sponsor

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I'll just put it this way. It goes well with the episode I just want to let everyone know about mud hen mama mud hen mama.

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There's probably a few good nuggets in there. How do I find those? I'd have to wade through so much if you go to mud hen mama calm there's a whole list there of good books to consider and If you use the promo code

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It's a good time to get gifts Because it's not just about homeschooling and and good educational books there's also books here that will be helpful for for just you know entertainment value and For for teaching lessons in a creative way.

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You can go to mud hen mama calm They also have curated lists for different ages

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So you can search all of that and and there's you can get all your questions answered You can contact them

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Michelle at mud hen mama calm Check them out so wanted to plug that I appreciate the sponsorship and you know,

01:56

I also just think that We need to support more Christian businesses who are unapologetic about these issues because let me tell you the organization

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We're going to talk about today is very popular. In fact, I was part of it at one time and They have compromised in my opinion deeply on an essential issue

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And when I should say fundamental issue, it's a fundamental issue you can't get this issue wrong and yet crew has gotten it wrong and Just to give everyone a little bit of a background

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I've been tracking crew stuff for quite some time I Started I think it was in 2019.

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I watched almost their entire conference Everything that was publicly available including interviews that weren't public

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You know private interviews that happened at the conference that crew put out and I put a big montage together of all that it was a woke fest and Then I had gone back and looked at some of their 2017 staff conference videos and it was a woke fest.

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And I Was one of the instrumental ones I suppose

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I could say there there were it wasn't just me but I but I was one of the people that was bringing a lot of this stuff to light and bringing attention to it and Since then and this is obviously a very brief history because we need to get into the primary sources here soon there were people in the organization of who

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Didn't like what I said didn't like what others were saying about them and tried to do damage control and there was a group

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Within crew of staff who were concerned who put together a great document just Chronicle chronicling where there was compromise on social justice matters and it was then leaked by some leftist blogger

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I think it was in England if I'm not mistaken and From my understanding and I don't know that this is across the board but at least in some places those who were part of that document were essentially punished for Being part of that effort to try to purify crew and there's a lot more

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I can share that I want to save for future episodes, but Crew has not really self -corrected.

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They have done what a lot of organizations I believe have done which is they're still on the same path

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They're just going underground with it more so and that's part of what I'm going to be showing you today

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My just my suspicions about this were confirmed by the documents that I'm going to be sharing with you to some extent and I'll show you this.

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I played this on the podcast just to open it up once before but I want to show you Today, this is the strategy that I'm talking about.

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This was from I believe I Think it was a year ago or so.

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It was a I think was their winter one of the winter staff conferences But anyway, I listened to a number of the lectures and there was a few things here and there that were kind of woke but nothing like 2019, but then

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I saw this and And check this out Yes Free light.

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We all get free lunch tomorrow chick -fil -a The Lord's chicken will be in the house.

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The Lord's chicken will be here. So, okay, seriously though seriously so We have one we have lunch for everyone, but there's two different locations

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You can go to the lounge and grab it or you can go to the Peacock Terrace Which is a fun thing to say as well the

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Peacock Terrace where we will have our oneness in diversity lunch Okay, crew has been on a journey really intentionally since about 2015

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Exploring how we can experience more oneness and diversity throughout our organization okay, and the reality is is that has

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Personally challenged me a lot like it has put me on my own Journey to better understand who

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I am and how I view my brothers and sisters in Christ all my brothers and sisters In Christ and I bet a lot of you have been on similar journeys over the last few years

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I know this has been such a big topic And so we are gonna meet together in the Peacock Terrace We will have lunch in there as well provided to discuss oneness and diversity in crew tomorrow

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Yeah, we know that this topic may not be new to many of you This is the topic that you live at issues of ethnic diversity and cultural diversity

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Are things that don't go away for some of us some of you guys might be coming into the lunch though And you feel super out of your depth

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We want to say we want you guys to grab a chair Which you grab some Chick -fil -a and want you to chat about your ethnic and cultural diversity or?

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Journeys and diversity while you're there So the reality is though truly that we do need one another to reach the world for Christ Okay, let me just say there was one session that was not publicly available

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I couldn't listen to it and you can guess which one it was. It was this one So this is the thing that happened at Southeastern when there was a exposure to what they were doing with social justice

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And you know, did it stop? Well students are no longer allowed to record in class I mean, that's the kind of thing we see and we're in a phase right now where it's not the fireworks

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It's not you know buildings being burned down and people on the streets. It's the institutional phase

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These things are worming themselves into Policies and deeper into the organizations and That's really the problem that we have before us right now

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How do you fight it when it's entrenched when it has a hold and it does have a hold in crew We're gonna talk about one specific issue today though.

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We're gonna talk about LGBT issues and crews their handling of you know, and again these college ministries, you know crews

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Mostly known for that there's going to be challenges unique challenges on a college campus But how are they handling that challenge is the question?

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So and I should probably mention for those who are listening and not seeing what I'm putting on the screen Doug Meeks for $5 said former crew staff here and just Contacted past two days with several crew staff about this document.

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So he knows the document I guess that I'm gonna show it's gonna be more than one document though. I don't have just one

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So, let's start Let's start here. This is

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Let's see. I don't know why it's not coming up. Can everyone see that? Yeah, I think they can see it now this is

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Compassionate and faithful and I'm going to show you two versions of it. This is from May 26th, 2023 and It says today we encounter a wide variety of questions related to sexuality and gender these questions are both complex and personal the purpose of this document as a reflection of our commitment to scripture as expressed in the crew statement of faith is to provide crew with staff with the biblical and theological framework to Engage with LGBTQ plus questions while this document addresses posture and theology

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You will find answers to practical ministry questions evangelism discipleship, etc So this is the document and I've just highlighted some things the highlights are from me the rest of it though.

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This is all crew So The there's multiple versions of this and So this one says and I think

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I'm getting this in order here So this is this is the LGBT plus resources that crew sent out.

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This is to staff Okay So I'll just read you it says the pastoral papers that are included in this these pastoral papers that help you navigate these issues

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LGBT plus issues are selected from the Center for faith sexuality and gender Now the

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Center for faith sexuality and gender for those who don't know that is Preston sprinkles quote -unquote ministry

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Preston sprinkle and I can't give you all the information in one video But he's the guy that in a podcast a few months ago.

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I played I actually I think a whole podcast I devoted to an interview he did with someone who considered themselves transgender and He was so compromised on it that I just thought this is unbelievable that this guy is being brought into Christian organizations and His material is being used.

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Well, one of those organizations is crew so For those who listen to the podcast, you'll know who

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I'm talking about when I say Preston sprinkle now With the exception of compassionate and faithful and the crew webinar, which

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I don't I don't think I have the crew webinar Which are exclusively for crew staff. You are welcome to share these resources

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So these are all resources that can be shared, but there's the compassionate and faithful Document you cannot share which we'll we'll get into that but Actually, what we'll do

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I think is I will first show you Internal stuff and then we'll go to public stuff.

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Okay, so here's Compassionate and faithful engaging in ministry that is compassionate towards people and faithful to Scripture.

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It says on this That please note that including a resource below does not reflect any endorsement of all that the author or organization

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Publishes or says or might in the future. Please do not share it outside crew the compassionate what

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I'm showing you essentially Now this as I understand it from a crew staff former crew staff has been changed

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That this actually this language was added because of some internal pushback But if you go through the document, it's the same articles.

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It's the same pastoral papers It's the same audio -visual resources Same books, you know, it's the same basic message and we're gonna talk about that message in a moment that you get from this

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Preston sprinkle stuff Rachel Gilson stuff affirming same -sex attraction

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Nate Collins stuff In fact, let me show you here's there's a video on here.

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I'll go to the audio video I'll just give you a sample here One of these

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I believe it is God is making me whole not straight.

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I think that's the one I'm gonna play for you here But this is one of the ones on the list that crew recommends.

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It says you can share with people who you're ministering to That's not it hold on I'm gonna get to that in a moment here it is

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I've gone into Mixed orientation marriages and you know for various reasons. It hasn't worked out and there are heartbreaking stories

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And so the biggest thing I wanted people to hear is that it is not the default solution

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There are good and godly vocations and patterns of living and choices

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They have nothing to do with marriage that are wide open for gay people to pursue and that can be life -giving

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By Far the most people that I've encountered are folks who on the one hand

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Want to affirm their love for me but who also feel this great sadness at the thought that I won't be able to pursue a

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Relationship that I desire on the one hand. I'm I'm touched by their by their sadness and I appreciate

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Their sympathy for what has been at times for me a really really painful journey but I also long for my brothers and sisters in Christ to find a place in their hearts to celebrate with me the

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Opportunities that I have as a celibate gay Christian Okay, so you saw

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Nate Collins there from revoice the person who started revoice conference, which is probably one of the most prominent

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LGBT Orientation affirming conferences in the quote -unquote evangelical world and then

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Greg Coles who wrote single gay Christian We reviewed that on the podcast. He even says he's not really sure if same -sex weddings are that big of a deal

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I mean because there's so many issues of greater importance like predestination verse Arminianism and that kind of thing and I you know, it's just it's a head -scratcher

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But there's the message that's the message you're gonna see throughout. This is you can be gay But you just you know, those those those desires aren't necessarily sinful.

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You just can't have a sexual relationship. You can't Give in to those desires in a sexual way because that would violate scripture, but you can have this identity

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In some way, right? I mean that's kind of the whole premise of revoice So that's just and that one.

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What was that called? That's called dear church. I'm gay. So dear church. I'm gay Is the name of that particular resource and It is

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I'm I'm trying to find out what link I exactly clicked it's actually on this one here

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I'll show you if people can see that It's right.

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I don't know if people can see my pointer but right under the audio -visual resources. That's just one of them I mean it is

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I'm barely scratching the surface with this stuff and it's just because it's so overwhelming But there there's books by Preston Sprinkle by Rachel Gilson You have

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Wesley Hill right there, I mean it's pretty much the who's who of that side

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B kind of theology now Part of the reason that I am doing this

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Podcast and I'm gonna show you I'm about to show you Internal stuff from crew is because this happened last

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Friday This is Rosaria Butterfield at Liberty University, and here's what she had to say truth

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Let me give you some examples Have you ever heard that same -sex attraction is a sinless?

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Temptation and only a sin if you act on it Or that people who experience same -sex attraction are actually gay

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Christians Called to lifelong celibacy or that people who experience same -sex attraction rarely have ever changed and Therefore should never pursue heterosexual marriage or that sex and gender are different and that God doesn't care about whether men live as men and women live as women because all you need to do is grow in the fruit of the

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Spirit as Though the fruit of the Holy Spirit can grow from sin. I From Christian ministries and this is where I name names and I'm an

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English professor. So I call this citing my sources Revoice Preston Sprinkles exiles in Babylon conference sponsored by his heretical

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Center for faith sexuality and gender and crew

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I got three seats people and And I have believed these lies too and not only as a

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Christian and I have repented publicly as a Christian in my book to you in articles and these people can do the same

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Okay, so that's the message. It's a great message. It's a bold message It's a message you need to hear more and more from people especially people like Preston Sprinkle like Greg Cole's like Rachel Gilson These are all people that she's inviting to do what she's done and repent and say, you know what?

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I used to say this. I this is wrong though I should never have taught this and impressed and Sprinkle I think has gone farther than Rosario ever did but in fact

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I think Rachel Gilson has to and so I think as Nate Collins and so but but the point is though She's saying join me join me and you could hear the audience.

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They cheer For her to name names and then when she says crew there's this kind of hushed Ooh that goes over the audience now, there is a crew chapter at Liberty University There's probably a lot of people in that room who are planning on going

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On staff at crew somewhere else. I mean crew crew is big in the evangelical world so So anyway, that's what happened.

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That's what prompted this whole thing and that's what prompts me to show you what I'm about to show you so This is a document

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Now I'm gonna see if I can zoom out here to show you this is something I'm going to make available to everyone.

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I thought about where I was gonna put this I'll probably just put it on like a Google Drive or something and put the link out there on my social media account

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So if you follow me on social media, you will have access to this this afternoon But This is these are crew internal documents crews approach to LGBTQ plus questions and HR resources

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So we're gonna start here and I'm going to have to zoom in a bit. There's The way

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I put this together on PowerPoint and so it's kind of like a I think it's 16 by 9 so it but it's small print so Start off here.

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This is crews approach to LGBTQ plus questions And it starts off by saying this the content on these pages is intended as a resource for crew staff

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In order to protect the ministry of staff at the local level Please do not copy content or share your organizational document with ministry partners pastors or friends

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So this stuff is stuff that you're not supposed to share I guess with your pastor Apparently this is this is all stuff that crews putting out there though giving to their staff.

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Okay, just so you understand What's going on here? so here's a section of it called creation

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God's good design and You can see Preston Sprinkle is cited here as a source

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Under the heading sex and gender in the creation story It says this as it relates to male and female the main categories of Genesis 1 through 2 is biological sex

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The creation account doesn't directly address gender the social and cultural ways in which we live out our maleness or femaleness

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In the world, we should affirm the goodness of the sexual difference God created by living clearly as male and female while showing appropriate

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Flexibility in line with the Bible in what it may look like to express being male or female in our various cultural settings if you go to the there's a

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There's a citation there. If you go down it says gender is often viewed in terms of identity and expression you already have a fundamental problem because this is one of the tenants of the

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LGBT plus movement is that Gender and sex are different things that Gender is a

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That now I mean some of them are saying even sex is a social construct But but gender is what they often use gender is a social construct.

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So we can deconstruct the The gender roles that we have in society for example, and I think it even gives this example, you know

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Women are the ones who mainly cook so they'll cite that and say well, there's exceptions. There aren't there cases where the men cook why why should the women cook why right and and that's just a gender stereotype and instead of asking a better question, which is

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Why? Why in Christian societies is in general are women the ones who tend to be the cooks?

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Well, it doesn't mean that it's across the board a legalistic standard. You must apply. But why is that the general trend?

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Why is that the role that's often in instance easy answer? Because they're a

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Christian conception of women is their work is in the home. That's the Proverbs 31 women

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Yes, of course, she engages in business for her home That's that's what we even see with the instructions for older women to younger women teach them how to be

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Homemakers essentially so this that's part of the reason the the man is out there working

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The woman's at home and she's taking care of the children if they have children. She's cooking I mean that this is now controversial somehow, but there's a reason that role developed the way it did and It's and a better question is why and is that a good overall role there?

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of course, there's exceptions to things but the What you see often is an attempt to deconstruct all of this and then to even go a step further and say well

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Hey, how how come women are the only ones who can wear dresses? I mean Scottish people wear kilts as if that's even comparable, right?

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and so, you know hairstyles earrings, whatever the case may be it it gets into all these other areas and it deconstructs the

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The affirmation that society gives to the difference between genders because that's what those things are

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It's a signal that I'm in this category All right with the responsibilities and the obligations that are part of that.

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So Yeah, well, I think I think Doug Meeks has already brought up I think

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I already hopefully answered this yes, there's work there She engages in business though on behalf of her home

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So she's not outside her husband's the one that sits at the gates, but anyway So this is

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I actually have to move along a lot faster here because I'm just realizing I've already been going over 20 minutes and this is quite the document so Let me get through some more territory here

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And maybe you won't agree with all my assessments on this, but you're gonna have to admit there is a problem somewhere Here is

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The next section the fall the corruption of God's good design And so I want to read for you this says before we discuss the impact of the fall on one's sexuality

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It is important to remind ourselves that those of us who experience same -sex attraction and or gender dysphoria are image bearers

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Who possess great dignity and worth in God's sight? We are friends co -workers and family members Faithfulness to scripture involves embracing not only the

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Bible sexual ethic But also the command to love our neighbor as ourselves our posture is one of compassion and humility

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It is also important to acknowledge that the conversion around the conversation around sexuality is emotionally charged and can be painful

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Now you may ask John What's the problem with that? We're supposed to be compassionate and I only bring this up as one representative example

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I'll probably show you a few more, but I can't show you all of it because it's chalked throughout the document I would say half the document is this kind of language it

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At least a third of it. I mean it is just the nuance and the winsomeness and I mean it uses the word complexity and nuance quite a bit in the document and It's like you got to be so careful about this topic, right?

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You have to show so much compassion You can't even start the conversation unless you have this super humble super willing to listen super passive kind of Posture that you take the thing that I wanted to point out about this is would they say this about anything else?

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What is any other sin in this category would they? How about something that crew is very concerned about right?

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Racial insensitivity it being insensitive to someone because of their racial makeup

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Would crew put out documents saying or language that says You know when you got someone who's a quote -unquote white supremacist

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You have to be so careful and loving and understand where they're coming from and no they don't in fact

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What they'll do and you're gonna find this throughout this document. I'll show you some examples is They will condemn they'll say basically be quick to condemn people who have hard and fast gender stereotypes

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Be quick to condemn them or people who engage in homophobia be quick to condemn them be quick to condemn that Be slow ever so slow.

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It might be years Sometimes and what I'll show you an example here soon. It may be years before you can really

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Get someone to do something like even change the way that they think of themselves as far as their pronouns are concerned

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I mean it is slow as molasses when it comes to that and and on Eggshells and tiptoeing when it comes to this issue, which

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I would suggest to you It should be that if any issue should be knee -jerk reaction.

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That's wrong It should be this that does that mean you're compassionate not compassionate? No, you can still be compassionate, but you need to be upfront with this is the truth

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You're in sin what you're doing is sin Your lifestyle is sin your identity that you're taking is sin

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All of this is sin think about yourself according to God's standard not according to the lies you've been fed from the world or the flesh or the devil or all three so This I think is the the way it's framed to me is the more important thing

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You're gonna see things in here that directly contradict what the Bible teaches But I think the way it it's framed is the poison pill this is the thing crew can't recover from because if you're constantly whatever the world says and Approves of if you're constantly in this kind of defensive

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Mode where you can't really engage it directly. You have to be super slow about it and super Just I guess passive and and it just seems wimpy to me

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But you have to do this like everything's cushioned with that first That's Pandora's box.

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It just means that on the things the world is concerned about you can be upfront you can be direct but on the things that the world is

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Is you know? Defending and encouraging you can't so you let the world dictate how you view these issues

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That is I think the main issue with all of this in my opinion so it says

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Marriage is always represented throughout scripture as a male -female union. That's good. And that's one thing. I do want to make Clear they are clear on that and if you're a someone who's a donor who calls them

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They'll probably be quick to tell you. Oh, we believe marriages between a man and a woman. Yes, of course I mean it is an evangelical organization.

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It is very hard for them to ditch that but I think in time if they keep going down this path they will Moreover same -sex sexual expression is explicitly prohibited both in the

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Old Testament and the New Testament. Okay good It also says though and this is about same -sex attraction

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It is important to distinguish the experience of same -sex attraction from acting on it in thought word or deed

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So apparently you can experience something without acting on it in thought word or deed Okay, simply having such desires should not be a cause of condemnation or shame

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Okay so you shouldn't have shame if you have same -sex attraction desires for someone of the of the same sex the

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Way that you would for someone of the opposite sex that you might intend to marry you shouldn't be ashamed of that Some of us have spent hundreds of hours praying for God to remove these attractions to no avail

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So instead of citing a scripture there it's an experience that look at all these people who have prayed and their prayers haven't been answered and Some of us have experienced such animosity from other

29:07

Christians so you see there there's this sort of like a press thing going on here there's a victim and You're reinforcing the victimhood if you do not accept this orientation language

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Here's another section the fall again. This is part of the fall the corruption of God's good design

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Says to our same -sex attraction others of us attest that our experience of same -sex attraction arose spontaneously and without choice similar to the pattern experienced by people in opposite sex attraction or if you remember in when gay marriage was being pushed

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Initially, that's the same argument. They use it. So well, we never chose this so if you never chose it, then somehow that makes it acceptable and Put the shoe on the other foot.

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Would you do this with other sexual? Expressions that are viewed as taboo.

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Would you do this and I'm not saying they're the same thing But but would you do this they're in the same category in this sense, though Is it okay to justify something like bestiality right

30:09

Peter Singer on Twitter? Just put something out there saying that in some cases you can have this this attraction and that's fine

30:16

And would you justify that would you justify pedophilia based on this? I mean you I didn't choose it.

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So Therefore we can have this these attractions as long as we don't you know

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As long as we don't engage in it we can have the feelings or have the attractions because because they didn't arise from us

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The question is where do they arise from that? I mean, is it God if it's not sin? Where did it come from? Because people can identify as transgender for various reasons.

30:47

It is best to never assume, you know Why someone has adopted that identity? There's a lot of this kind of language again,

30:54

I would just say to that that The Bible gives us clear direction on why someone might do this

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And it comes back to something actually very simple. It comes back to sin a rebellion against the created order That's what

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Romans 1 is about. It's not something that You have to just well,

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I I can't I'm not an expert. I don't know enough about it. I haven't asked enough people I haven't gotten their story.

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Therefore. I can't jump to conclusions about what might have caused it We know what caused it Right and there's different flavors and different approaches in different ways and you can have compassion and you can counsel that person but we still know the root issue is sin and And that's what you won't find in this

31:33

Here's a section on redemption beginning to recover. God's good design he consistently treated people male and female with dignity and honor, especially those on the margins as Jesus and You know

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Preston Sprinkle uses this a lot in his teachings that look Jesus he went for those people who were cast out from society just like the

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LGBT people are cast out from the church and Let's be real with the world that we live in and especially if you're on a college campus

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The people who are in vogue the people who don't have to worry about being discriminated against quote -unquote are people who have this identity at This point.

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Okay, they are a protected class law Guess who is not protected guess who the people on the margins are today?

32:16

Yeah, I mean, it's Christians It's people that are you know anti -semites. It's with here.

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Here's a good thing to consider We crew put out a document on anti -semitism and the whole document is

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This tiptoeing and what Jesus talked to people on the margins and anti -semites are certainly on the margins

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So we should well, the thing is we should talk to those people. They need the Lord. They're also humans

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They're made in God's image. All of that stuff is true But there would I'm sure that the messaging on this would be more of a quick condemnation

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That's what you saw from crew in 2020 was it was condemned racism, right condemn the racist So they're the problems but when it comes to to this no

32:55

No, no, and the Bible is infinitely more clear in my opinion And there's more information in the Bible about this then there is supposed quote -unquote racism

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Okay Jesus singleness here and here's the Second step when using

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Jesus first he reached out to the people in the margins Secondly, his singleness also challenged his social and religious context which taught that divine blessing resided

33:19

Especially in marriage and begetting children. So here here's Jesus challenging these stereotypes

33:25

Challenging what culture says culture says that you should get married and have kids but Jesus says that through his example

33:32

That there's that that not necessarily that that's not divine blessing,

33:37

I guess It's the divine blessing doesn't reside in marriage and begetting children, you know to which

33:45

I would quote Ecclesiastes 9 9 which says enjoy life with the wife whom you love all the days of your futile life

33:51

Which he has given you under the Sun all the days of your futility for this is your reward in life and in your work

33:58

Which you have labored under the Sun. I mean that certainly seems to me like that's a divine blessing but Apparently not and you know, it discounts the fact that Jesus had a special mission.

34:09

He had a special Calling and a singleness that complemented that calling

34:16

It's a unique situation and there are others in unique situations. That doesn't mean it's the normal pattern

34:22

Jesus taught about marriage. He reinforced marriage And of course all of the words of Scripture are from Jesus The creation norm is that a man shall leave his mother and father cleaved to his wife

34:32

That they shall be fruitful and fill the earth. That is the creation norm. Okay.

34:38

Yes There are of course there's infertile couples. Of course, there's people who don't get married Of course, there's people who have a gift of singleness.

34:45

Of course, there are these things but that is not the norm and That's where the focus should be

34:50

There should be an expectation that most people are going to get married not shy away from that and that is a blessing

34:57

That's a blessing from the Lord children are a blessing from the Lord So anyway, it says

35:02

Jesus Christ created him I just wanted to highlight that this language is also in there created a multi -ethnic community without national borders the church

35:09

And then it goes on and on about the in crew really wants to dial up that you know, it's this kind of racially integrated

35:18

Community that you can be part of I mean that's appealing to I guess even social justice types and college campuses

35:24

But the word community probably isn't the best word. It's an institution It's a it's an institution that happens to be multi -ethnic.

35:31

That's not its primary like distinctive, but yeah, of course, it's from every tribe tongue nation, but as it's not a community in the sense of like a

35:41

It's not like a Community where you live in tangible earthly reality and you

35:48

You have people with different languages and there's no national borders I mean I go to a church right within the

35:54

United States within a certain state within national borders. I don't have the option of Doing something otherwise, right?

36:02

So It uses these buzzwords the this language that's appealing

36:07

But it doesn't really clarify or help make sense of what the church actually is if they're the universal church exists across time and space and They're in the culmination of it.

36:19

You're there is going to be people of every tribe tongue in nation But it doesn't I would you would never say and you don't find this language in Scripture where it's a multi -ethnic community without national borders

36:29

You know, that's certainly not the local church, right? But even the universal church It's it doesn't like wash away all that all the distinctions that exist out there and if you read the rest of us, it certainly gives you that impression and And I you know,

36:43

I I've noticed this before and I think this is the only reason I bring that up you know, some of you might think that's not on topic, but it's on topic in my mind for this reason because So often

36:54

Christians I find want to dial up the areas where they think they can somehow find a link that connects their message and their beliefs to what the world already believes and So if they are on the outs when it comes to they believe in biblical sexuality when it comes to marriage which crew does

37:11

They don't think marriage should be Between anything more than a man and a woman then you're already got a target on your back

37:18

So, you know, how do you try to gain approval? Well, you'll dial up those areas where you think you might have some agreement

37:24

So on the race stuff you dial that up and then you know, you can join with the world against the quote -unquote

37:32

Racists out there or white supremacists or anti -semites or whatever and and and I've just seen that strategy and I I'm picking up that same kind of vibe from this document

37:45

Maybe I'm nitpicky maybe but I've just I've seen so much of this I'd have read so many books that I've just noticed that trend and so I want to point it out

37:52

All right. So here's some more meat for you redemption beginning to recover God's good design

37:58

Most of us it says however Will continue most of us who experience same -sex attraction will continue to experience same -sex attraction throughout our lives

38:06

While it's still experiencing growth and joy as we steward our sexuality in holy and healthy ways. Well, that's encouraging

38:13

That's encouraging Yeah, the vast majority of us I guess most of us. We're just gonna keep we're gonna experience this

38:20

We're gonna have same -sex attraction throughout our whole life But you know the encouragement supposedly is we can steward our sexuality in holy and healthy ways

38:27

I mean, how does that work exactly? so you can I mean, yeah, of course, you're supposed to resist temptation when it comes up, but This is

38:36

This is like a it is a black pill, right? This is like telling people that yeah

38:42

I mean, I know we have the Bible we have the Holy Spirit you have Christ But you know, you're still gonna probably experience that same -sex attraction.

38:49

Why not? Why not? Pray, you know Lord Please take this from me and expect that he will in his time and that and fight it

38:57

Starve the flesh as much as you possibly can and that's going to be where you experience the growth and joy

39:03

That's kind of the point. It's not that you experience the growth and joy As you kind of learn to live with the same -sex attraction

39:11

No, you experience the growth and joy as you put it to death as you overcome it through Christ That's that's the whole that's the message of the

39:19

Bible right is that sanctification a Relationship with Christ will change the way a person lives, but it may not change the nature of their temptation or their experience of sexual

39:29

Brokenness. Okay, why not? Why not? Isn't that exactly the thing it should change?

39:35

It's so hard. Okay. Yeah, lots of things are hard You mean you

39:40

I may have this temptation my whole life Okay, you there there may be a weak spot there because of previous history and experience and whatever

39:50

Circumstances But you should be changed your desire should be changing as you become closer to Christ You don't want the kinds of things you used to want

40:01

He's perfecting a work in you that's kind of the point be not conformed to the world but transformed by the renewing of your mind

40:08

So that so it's not like well, you're always gonna be kind of conformed to the world in this one area Why why that's directly against the the message that Scripture gives us on these things?

40:19

I'm gonna keep going we have I'm probably about half done with this document and then

40:25

I have some other things that are public to show you but I'm just gonna go To the comments to see if there's any questions that people have

40:36

Let's see Yeah, I think I think some of the questions

40:42

I've actually already addressed that are in the thread so no need to go through them Doug Meeks is saying that crew is not saying that you won't see growth

40:56

But that you may not see full deliverance from it. I would say that is a Charitable reading bordering on Putting words there that crew did not say but we wish they said

41:12

Because here's the thing about it the language that crew uses in this is very specific

41:20

They're creating the impression from the get -go that Most people that's the word they used who experienced this will always experience it

41:31

That's what they're doing. They're creating a pool. It's it's a black pill from the beginning instead of You know stop focusing on us and ourselves and our but focus on what

41:41

Christ has said focus on his promises focus on The deliverance that he gives the power of the

41:47

Holy Spirit and then fight that should be the focus but they're starting off with a

41:54

Handicap and saying well, yeah. Hey it is possible Yeah, it is possible because it some are not most

42:03

My a minority of people may may have this there may be an overcoming somewhere, but they're starting off with the whole assumption that most of you won't and But you can still somehow

42:15

Continue to experience Joel growth and joy and and you can also steward your sexuality and holy and healthy ways while you have this

42:23

The only way you steward your sexuality and holy holy and healthy ways is by overcoming it. That's the point

42:29

So, I guess I'm repeating myself at this point, but I figured might as well might as well put that out there

42:36

Okay There's one of the problems with this document and and I unfortunately

42:43

I can't I wish I could just read the whole document for you But that would be we would be here for hours I'm highlighting it and that's why

42:49

I'm gonna give you the source you make up your own mind about it You read it for yourself. But here's some of the things that stand out to me The thing is you're gonna find language some that can support like like if you really want to believe that crew

43:01

Screws not compromised crew saying the right things you can you can mine for that in the document and find

43:08

Kind of what you want You can start out with well They say marriage is between a man and woman Right and really like focus on that and then you could go and find areas where they you know, talk about well like like for instance the sentence

43:20

I read earlier where It talks about your desire should be in conformity To you can to Christ you shouldn't have same -sex desires essentially

43:30

But you will still have same -sex attraction and it's this confusing like it can't be both. How is that possible?

43:35

How do you have this orientation? But at the same time? You you you know, the desires are sin

43:41

But the orientation isn't you're going to focus if you want to defend crew on the things that seem like they are more orthodox

43:48

So hey look right there. They said desire same -sex attraction Isn't sin, but they did say that if you have that desire that it so so this is my point

43:58

Is that you have to when you're looking at a document like this? Especially something that's vetted by a national or international organization

44:05

That's at the front lines in college ministry that you know has all kinds of theologians and staff members

44:13

You should know better working for them. This has to be airtight. This has to be

44:19

Helpful it has to be good. It can't be confusing and what I'm what I gather from this document is there's more politics

44:26

Than there is being represented and you're gonna find that way more as you get to the the HR stuff

44:33

It's a tiptoe around we were in a tight spot We have people of differing convictions and and how do we go about navigating this?

44:41

That's that's what I pick up from this document. So You know, I do try to point out where I can the things that crew says that are true

44:48

But they most of what they say on the issue of same -sex attraction is not true

44:54

It is it is false so Let's keep going here. This is practical ministry questions

45:02

Discipleship, so this is actually do we want to start there? Let me see here. Yeah, this is speaking with Christians Okay, so this is what?

45:11

This is what they're telling staff members if you have Christians. Okay, these are people who are born again These are people who make a profession of faith if you have them before you and you're discipling them you're teaching them

45:21

How do you treat that and this is where it gets interesting more interesting to me? Because because that should be a no -brainer right?

45:28

You're not interacting with the world. You're this is in -house, right? So I can understand to some extent interacting with the world there's some politics at play and you got a figure you got to choose your language wisely because It's it's a minefield that you're on but when you're in having an in -house discussion you have the

45:44

Word of God They both you both believe it's authoritative. Why would that be eggshell conversations, but it is for them

45:51

So, how do we create safe communities where people can discuss their questions about sexuality? Every time you see sexuality

45:59

Substitute racism and see if it works. I'm just just an experiment Do not speak as if everyone in your movement will one day get married or speak in ways that suggest that marriage is a reward for faithfulness to Christ Hmm Yeah, don't do that.

46:15

You wouldn't want to do that. Don't give people that impression That suggests that marriage is a reward for faithfulness to Christ.

46:21

Well, it may not always be a reward but Like like there's other rewards that Christ gives and you know,

46:28

I don't know like like marriage is a blessing that's the thing like and if you're and You could have worded me like if you're trying to make a good point on this

46:38

You probably could have worded it a little differently and and just say, you know Don't don't make a marriage the end -all be -all and it may be that's what he's trying to say but it's or whoever wrote it, but But don't suggest that marriage is a reward for faithfulness to Christ it may be actually a reward for faithfulness to Christ obedient because if that's part of God's design and Obedience is part of God's design conforming to his design

47:04

Then I mean that's what we just read Ecclesiastes on this there is a reward in that Instead speak in a balanced biblical way of the dignity and goodness of both paths faithful singleness and faithful marriage

47:18

Highlighting the goodness of singleness is especially important in our culture, which is addicted to sex and romance. So don't highlight the goodness of Or the you know, don't highlight marriage as being a reward but highlight the goodness of singleness so there's sort of like a and I've seen this broadly speaking an emphasis shift to platforming the single person as A crew doesn't say they're the ideal

47:43

I've seen that though in some gospel coalition literature that they become like the ideal like they're they mean

47:50

Jesus was single Paul was single and You're seeing a shift here

47:55

I think with what we're supposed to put emphasis on its emphasis more in framing more than it is actual

48:03

So like the time you allot to something or the prominent place you give something more than the actual words and what you're saying about That thing so it says feature stories of disciples who experienced same -sex attraction and are thriving in Christ Yep, so those are the you need to give people those kinds of narratives.

48:20

That's what they need I would like to suggest to you actually the narratives people need even if they say they experience this is they need narratives of People like Rosario Butterfield people who are

48:32

Who do not have that that orientation who have sacrificed?

48:39

or I should say have Mortified their flesh and are living in a faithful marriage.

48:44

That's the story. You should platform That's the the submission to God's created design instead.

48:49

It's platform stories of single gay Christians Examine any ways that your movement might promote or reinforce unhelpful gender stereotypes

48:57

So so that's what you need to police. You need to police those gender stereotypes that that would be the problem

49:03

This and then it says consider in addition to traditional men's and women's Bible studies offering some mixed gender groups

49:09

This creates easier ways for some people to encounter and experience the gospel It's at best that sloppy language experience the gospel.

49:17

It's Easier ways for some people to experience the gospel because it's in a mixed group

49:25

What I mean if you're experiencing the gospel you're coming to salvation in Christ you're and I mean someone might say the benefits of that too, but I Mean the good news is that of what

49:39

Christ is what Christ did for us on our behalf on the cross That's the good news. There's not works attached to it.

49:45

It's good news that Christ did. It's his work not our work and You can experience that work of Christ in easier ways if it's in a mixed group.

49:52

I mean Does that not strike anybody as a little odd Again you have to ask why do all these things why change things why?

50:01

Emphasize this messaging and not that why platform these stories and not those stories Well, that's what you have to be considering in your mind.

50:08

What's the end goal here? What are they trying to do? I think it's obvious what they're trying to do It says you have

50:16

You have had and will have individuals and leadership in your movements who experience same -sex attraction

50:21

So just if you're in crew, I guess just get used to that You're gonna have the leadership people in leadership who experience same -sex attraction limit your response

50:29

Let's see. Take time to listen to their story personally These are people who want to come out as gay or same -sex attracted

50:35

Listen to their story personally to the degree that they would like to share it limit your response to acknowledgement and empathy So even if someone comes out as I am homosexual limit your response to empathy

50:46

So so be hamstrung operate with a handicap Those parts of the Bible that would confront it discard those initially that This does not allow the freedom to interact in the way that might be appropriate for the situation because it may be deserve a rebuke

51:02

It really may reply with authenticity. It says and make an effort to maintain the relationship beyond this encounter.

51:09

Yeah Well, but what if the authenticity is you're in sin is I mean that's authentic This is a bundle of Unhelpful somewhat contradictory in some places

51:22

Pieces of advice for crew staff and and to me this is the point in a document I think it's this page in the next one when

51:28

I thought well This this it confirms my suspicions that this stuff is has made its way into the internal operations of crew

51:37

They're not telling you this that they have these specific protocols on the front side

51:43

But this is what's poisoning the organization from the inside How do I respond to Christians in our movements who believe that scripture affirms commit committed same -sex relationships

51:53

So scripture is clear that same -sex sexual relations are outside God's will so that's good it says

52:02

But then it says many people are drawn to the affirming view because of its compassionate stance and care for people we acknowledge this and grieve together the ways that some

52:10

Christians who have held the traditional biblical view of marriage have been hypocritical towards LGBT plus people and mistreated them.

52:16

We reject this mistreatment and hypocrisy now now shouldn't we reject mistreatment and hypocrisy?

52:21

Okay, sure, but you got it. Here's what you have to realize We reject this mistreatment in a hypocrisy.

52:29

There's no nuance there. No qualification. No cushioning. No walking on eggshells No passivity.

52:35

No trying to be authentic It's just Blatant we reject it is of us.

52:42

It's like as close to it Thus sayeth the Lord as you get in the document, right? We reject no if ands or buts

52:49

So so this is the way that quote -unquote, you know homophobic views or people who are hypocrites and mistreat

52:56

LGBT people This is this is the way that you were supposed to react towards them. We reject this mistreatment and hypocrisy

53:04

Yes, yet look at the way the sin that God calls sin in the Bible is treated with the tiptoeing and the eggshells

53:11

Don't assume that using the word gay or queer means that someone is making their attractions a part of their core identity

53:18

So I mean the way that everyone uses it in common discourse You just can't assume that they're making it part of their core identity.

53:26

I mean they could be saying Something else they could be saying that they're just same -sex attracted and that it's not part of their core identity and so maybe it's okay and it's not you know, maybe they should just change their language around a little and it's it's it's more

53:39

Of a trimming on the corners than it is a full makeover Practical ministry questions.

53:47

This is also speaking with Christians. So again, these are these are Christians were interacting with not in the world They mentioned

53:55

Preston Sprinkle and incite his resources, okay, it says Ultimately we want to help our disciples to identify with the pronouns and the name that corresponds to their birth sex

54:09

Yeah, I should be obvious right? However, that may take years

54:14

Let me read that again. However, that may take Years, do not rush your disciple in this

54:21

Process seek wisdom and love and walking with them. So If you're discipling someone who is a

54:27

Christian who uses pronouns that aren't actually Corresponding to their well, they say sex

54:34

I think here but gender. Well, I'm okay using the way that the word used to be used Then you shouldn't rush them because it may take years for them to actually operate based upon the pronouns that God That would want them to use that the you know, basically let them operate in a lie for a few years

54:52

That's what it's saying. Let them operate in that lie for a few years gently try to confront Is this an issue to play around with?

55:00

I? Mean, this is so fundamental. This is so damaging This is an emergency and this this is someone who's a

55:07

Christian. Okay, supposedly this is someone and and you know what? Maybe there are Christians who are saved out of that who?

55:13

You know when they're new in the faith, they got to navigate this but that should be a really early

55:20

Obvious I've got to change now because that's not who I am That's not who God created me to be but not according to crew

55:27

They can take years. Don't pressure them We're about three -quarters of the way through this and Okay, so Doug Meeks is mad at me that's okay and Yeah, I don't know pastoral application

55:45

I guess well, I think actually the applications where the rubber hits the road and you know, how have

55:53

I Had to be I'll get let me give you a quick example. Just a quick aside here personally since my

55:58

My experience is being called into question here. I There was a man who considered himself homosexual that I Knew for probably about six months in a

56:13

In a friendly way I would get together with him for breakfast and He worked at a gym that I went to this is a few years ago

56:21

And I I got together with him a few times Shared the gospel with him in no uncertain terms and the homosexual issue came out pretty quickly

56:29

And I'm not gonna give you the whole story here But I was able very early on to be very direct with him about what that was and also

56:39

To be very compassionate and understanding With some of the experiences that had made it

56:47

Contributed to him his confusion on this and his sin. It was sin and I didn't you know,

56:53

I didn't mince words about it I My heart breaks for people who have been in situations where they've been abused

57:06

Sexually by relatives or by strangers in some cases. I've known people in both circumstances

57:13

Many people and it's becoming more common. My heart breaks for people who?

57:20

are Confused because of the messaging of the world and I am mad

57:27

Like truly mad in a righteous indignation kind of way that organizations like crew are

57:35

Willing to compromise on any level with that moral confusion it makes the situation worse and That's why it is not compassionate.

57:46

What Cruz doing is not compassionate. They're saying they're about compassion, but their protocols are not compassionate

57:51

It's everything they can do to stifle you and to limit you and to try to put off Telling people the life -giving truth that they need which is that they are in sin and they need

58:06

Christ and It can't just be Christ and we kind of you know, soft pedal this sin.

58:12

It's got to be sin and Christ You it's like trying to give people chemo

58:18

But you haven't told them they have cancer and they don't think they do so that's my heart to heart with with anyone out there who you know is concerned about it when you're sitting in a pastoral office of course

58:31

You're gonna You're gonna have all kinds of people come in that have all kinds of different sins and you're gonna have to counsel them on Those sins and you're gonna have to be approachable

58:39

But approachability is not the kind of approachable you want is not an approachability that soft pedal stuff and that well

58:46

He's approachable because he's not gonna judge me for this that hurt the other thing No I'm not gonna judge you but I am gonna take the

58:51

Word of God and I'm gonna apply its judgment and I'm not going to Stand in the way in between that judgment because you need the full effect of it

58:58

Otherwise, it wouldn't have been written there if the message is for you and it's not for me to water down All right, so that that's my view on it.

59:04

But um, let's let's keep going and you know Maybe some people disagree with with my approach. I think there is some room to To have different specific approaches on some of this stuff, but crew is way out in left field here

59:15

I Remind yourself. This is a tender vulnerable moment. Yeah when

59:23

When one of the movement leaders, this is a not just a Christian But a person who's a leader in crew comes out or wants to come out as gay her lesbian

59:32

It's a vulnerable moment. Yeah It's it's it's all these points about you know, the compassion you're supposed to have and be basically slow about this whole thing

59:42

Having a leader that has Come out may invite questions from other participants or from donors and other partners about crews position on sexuality

59:50

So this is what some of you want to know about crew does have protocols. This is the first place I saw it

59:56

For if you ask questions if you're a donor and some of the donors might be listening right now and you call them up and say

01:00:01

Hey, I heard Rosario Butterfield say that crews compromised on this what say you they already have ready their narrative

01:00:09

Here's part of it Crew has a very clear concise answer regarding sexuality use it as an anchor that both guides and protects you you can offer

01:00:17

Protects you you can offer this as the key talking point Although there are many secondary questions that a ministry partner may ask for which crew does not have a formal organizational position

01:00:27

You can use discretion on how you have an extended conversation beyond our short position statement

01:00:33

It says this is a good reminder that all conversations about Christian sexuality in our movement should contain information about same -sex attraction

01:00:39

That is compassionate towards people and faithful in to Scripture It says having a movement wide

01:00:47

Christian sexuality teaching before you have a leader that comes out Can help prepare your movement to support and encourage each leader in faithfulness no matter their attractional patterns

01:00:56

Says you can communicate that crew believes that God calls all people to steward their sexuality through either faithful celibate singleness or faithful marriage between a man and a woman so in other words

01:01:08

It's big it's it's have a conversation be compassionate give them some things that are a little more hard like hey, we believe that You know

01:01:17

People should steward their sexuality through either faithful celibate singleness or faithful marriage So there's that but it's it's not getting at the root issues that this is what this is why

01:01:25

I say I think if you call them you have to be very specific You know in this document you say this or you or if you don't have a document say do ask the question is same -sex attraction

01:01:37

Sinful yes or no. I just want to know what crew stance is right and don't don't get by with well

01:01:42

We're just having a conversation with a cup of coffee here. And let's like it's a it's a pretty simple thing to navigate

01:01:49

Okay What do I do when an LGBT? Individual who is a Christian has chosen to be single and celibate and wants to lead our movement

01:01:56

Give them opportunities to develop a leadership track record Let them lead. That's that's crew

01:02:03

What do I do if one of the leaders in my movement wants to pursue a same -sex sexual relationship Well, remember that there is a distinction between experiencing same -sex attraction and choosing to pursue a same -sex sexual relationship

01:02:14

I mean, that's all throughout this whole thing It's like that's that's the bridge too far is when it becomes sex, but before that not so much

01:02:22

What do I do if one of my leaders and by the way? I should say that if I didn't say it before I'm not giving there are paragraphs in Answering these questions.

01:02:30

I'm giving you things that stand out to me. I've know I've said this like two or three times, but Read the document for yourself

01:02:37

If you want to know all the things that Cruz saying about this this isn't comprehensive because I would be here like five hours

01:02:43

This is just what actually what stands out. What are the problems that need to be addressed mostly?

01:02:50

Okay. So what do I do if one of my leaders in my movement wants to pursue a same -sex dating relationship? That is not sexual With that in mind, so it says it is unwise to begin dating relationship with those who we know

01:03:02

We could not marry this would include non -christians as well as persons of our same sex

01:03:09

It's I mean, I'm glad they think it's unwise but talk about kid gloves. Yeah, you know if you if you date someone

01:03:17

Not wise not wise How about wrong? How about sinful?

01:03:23

How about engaging in something God hates? How about toy Eva? How about abomination, you know, or or a it's a mechanism to bring about an abomination.

01:03:32

How about Causing others to stumble. How about being about witness?

01:03:38

I mean The use of trans or transgender as a label can have multiple meanings in the honoring

01:03:44

Way ask your movement leader if they come out as transgender about why they feel drawn to using this description of themself

01:03:51

Okay, I mean it's a good question I guess to ask them why but but the why is gonna be followed with you can't do that.

01:03:57

That's it's sinful. That's wrong That's wicked and everyone knows it this So there is a use of trans language that would not automatically disqualify someone from movement leadership.

01:04:09

I Can't even though it would be good to have conversations with your leader about how language choices take on extra weight in leadership positions

01:04:18

So consider the implications of saying you're trans that's that's like what's it saying basically consider

01:04:23

Is that a good thing to to do because people might get the wrong idea instead of dude or like Knock it off.

01:04:33

You know, this needs to be confronted. You need to leadership needs to know you're coming out as trans

01:04:42

Assess their willingness to adapt their language so it may just be a language adaption that needs to happen there What do

01:04:48

I do if a movement participant who identifies as transgender wants to take on leadership or a teaching role in the movement? Whether or not your participant is ready or meet the criteria for leadership encourage them in their relationship with Christ and their growth in Him, I mean that's fluff.

01:05:04

It's just it's not helpful. It doesn't address the situation It's like yeah, I mean, it's be good and don't be bad and courage courage walking with Christ It's like yeah, but what about this specific question we have here?

01:05:16

Okay, what if some leaders in my movement holds to an affirming view regarding LGBT questions, okay, so what if they affirm

01:05:25

Homosexuality or transgenderism, etc When it comes to leaders who hold an affirming view there are two opposite ditches.

01:05:31

We could fall off. So these are the ditches So it's it's not just a blank. You know, this is wrong There's ditches here on the one hand.

01:05:38

We could recognize that this leader is well -suited in every other aspect How It like would you say that about any other sin it's like well someone affirms that it's okay to steal

01:05:51

Well, they're well suited in every other aspect. I mean, they're not murdering They don't think that adultery is right, but they it's you would never say that And so anyway on the one hand we could recognize that this leader is well suited in every other aspect

01:06:02

And so want to excuse this one area of misalignment on the other hand We may be stringent in holding our leaders to alignment and yet not

01:06:09

Demonstrate sufficient process of our growth model of grace and truth over time to impact our leaders If we have leaders or potential leaders who hold to an affirming view we want to enter into a process

01:06:18

That's right always takes time right with them that prioritizes their growth as disciples and not merely leadership in our movement

01:06:24

How about they're not leadership anymore? How about that? They're disagreeing I mean if they're affirming this sexual relationship there and they're firming transgenderism and stuff.

01:06:33

They've already violated Cruz documents So this is what I guess this is what you would do for people who even violate the document

01:06:40

It's like you went her into a process. It's this It's unbelievable. I bet you if someone came out and said white people are supreme.

01:06:48

They would be kicked out of crew in 0 .5 seconds I Happen to know people who were kicked out of crew very quickly and they never said anything close to that They just opposed the

01:06:59

BLM narrative We want okay, so here's here's an excellent everyone is a spokesperson

01:07:05

We want to be known for what we are for rather than merely what for what we are against. That's a common tagline.

01:07:10

You'll hear Unfortunately, you don't get to control actually what you're known for in every circumstance.

01:07:15

The the world is looking for the eye of Sauron is Scanning for anything that does not comply with their with the view of homosexuality that is out there so if we're transgenderism, so if you

01:07:31

Deviate you're going to be known for what you're against by the people who are scanning for that You can't help that you're gonna be known for what you're against.

01:07:38

Jesus was known for being against the Pharisees There it's okay to be known for what you're against and what you're for.

01:07:45

Okay That's not a Bible verse that you need to be known for what you're for not which for what you're against But I hear it all the time

01:07:52

If you do speak remember that this is a complex issue that requires careful nuance I just put highly that because it's all throughout the document.

01:07:58

I skipped over so many times that that kind of language is used Believe the best about the let's see.

01:08:04

How should I relate to a campus administration? Administrations or other public secular institutions in regard to situations involving

01:08:11

LGBT questions So these are people at the campus who are not Christians who are in positions of authority

01:08:17

What do you do? Believe the best about the institution and its leaders aim for partnering rather than adversarial posture towards the institution seek to find common ground

01:08:25

This is I'm gonna say in a few years I think this is gonna be somewhat dated if it's not already that this kind of thing to believe the best about the institution you know, most college campuses now are

01:08:38

Essentially Factories for producing social justice warriors. That's like I'm not saying they don't do math and engineering and some other things

01:08:46

But if you're especially if you're taking Courses in like the humanities or history or the quote -unquote social sciences.

01:08:54

That's what it is Okay, and to believe the best about the institutions and its leaders

01:08:59

There's sort of a naivete to that at this point like they have a mission that is a directly Opposed to the mission that you have in most cases and you have to be real

01:09:08

So if you're giving advice to someone you have to at least acknowledge that that you know You're in hostile territory here. And so behave the way a

01:09:15

Christian behaves when they're in hostile territory That doesn't mean you're a jerk at all But it means that you probably shouldn't just automatically believe the best about the institution and its leaders when you live in an environment

01:09:27

Where they're actively pushing the LGBT stuff What do

01:09:32

I do when I'm asked by the media to come in LGBT is best to avoid making any public statements on the media To the media if you are asked for an interview, please contact your supervisor.

01:09:40

So there's I guess I just pointed this out because that's an area of sensitivity and actually that probably should be it's to some extent but But I would prefer

01:09:50

I think most of us would prefer if you're funding this organization, hey, that's an opportunity It's an opportunity the media's coming man, like And I have there's times

01:10:00

I have not talked to the media. Okay, so that I don't not saying in every circumstance, but it may be one of those things where like On an issue this clear and this the

01:10:10

Bible this clearly talks about why not? Why not just have like a here's a model statement that you can give

01:10:17

This is this is what crew believes about this We do not believe in same -sex relationships and hold your ground, right?

01:10:25

I don't know. I mean that this is a more of a preference thing Okay, this isn't like as big of a deal as some of the other things that I've talked about but I do think that as Christians there is this this cultivated cowardice that we have in many of our

01:10:38

Institutions where we the relationship we have to the world is so like we're trying to be winsome to them and win them over through through You know our art and our niceness and our activities and our relationships

01:10:52

And we want them to come in and that's like the only posture we can possibly have you'll read your

01:10:57

New Testament I mean, you don't find all this language about nuance and compassion and all this when it's surrounding topics of sin like I'm I'm actually specifically thinking of like Homosexual stuff like you don't you see very direct language.

01:11:12

Now, of course you see language of compassion in the New Testament Where when it comes to Christians, I mean we're to encourage the faint -hearted right that there that's compassion

01:11:21

Encouragement build them up is what it literally means We're to be patient with all men, right?

01:11:27

That's some compassion, right? That's a general command we have but we're also to admonish the unruly and if someone's advocating this stuff, that's unruly

01:11:36

Okay, how do I what do I do when I'm asked to comment about cruise stance on LGBT?

01:11:42

Plus questions by supporters and friends of the cruise ministry. So here's the second place where you find

01:11:48

The instructions given if you're a donor and you call and you ask questions, they have their sheet ready They have this is what we're supposed to say to you

01:11:56

Remember that ministry partners approach this question with a variety of concerns You might want to ask what prompts the question so to get into a conversation with them

01:12:02

Basically phone call is preferable to email I would say actually emails preferable to phone call because you can get direct answers and you have a paper trail

01:12:11

But but they you know get them on the phone tone is important, right? Communicate that we are an evangelistic ministry call to communicate the good news of the gospel to everyone

01:12:21

That is our unique role within the body to that end. We seek to be compassionate towards people and faithful to the scriptures

01:12:26

I mean, these are just general things These won't answer the questions communicate that we believe that God's design for marriage is a lifelong covenant between one man and one woman

01:12:34

God calls all people to Sexuality in either faithful celibate singleness or faithful marriage between a man and a woman That disciples are called to live in alignment with God's design if they ask about our stance on Legislation and related to same -sex marriage or other

01:12:45

LGBT questions remind them. We're not a political organization This is like this all sounds good

01:12:51

But it is it does not get to the root issue of same -sex attraction if someone asks about that So if you call you're gonna have to ask very specifically about that What do

01:13:02

I do if a supporter and friends of Cruz ministry ask about Cruz position on same -sex attraction So this is where they try to get specific on This crew believes that God invites all people to sexual purity through either the practice of faithful singleness or the practice of faithful marriage

01:13:14

It's a repeat of what we just saw Within this brother ethic. We believe that same -sex attraction is contrary to God's design for human sexuality

01:13:22

It represents a disordering of sexual desire in our fallen condition. It is neither morally neutral nor morally good

01:13:27

It would be helpful to add that from a discipleship perspective We also believe that all Christ followers including those who experience same -sex attraction need encouragement support and love as they experience and seek to resist

01:13:36

Temptation I have to say that Sounds that the way that sounds is way more conservative and orthodox than what you find in the rest of this document, isn't it?

01:13:45

And that's what you're supposed to say to the supporters when they call I'm just saying

01:13:52

This is the this is the headache that Southern Baptist go through and all kinds of people who say hey

01:13:58

I this kind of thing happened at my church and I'm asking questions and I'm getting either fluff or I'm getting they're giving me like Sort of conservative sounding answers and that doesn't it doesn't seem congruent with the the false teaching.

01:14:11

I just heard and It's confusing me because they're acting like nothing changed that there's no contradiction

01:14:18

I'm telling you the donor called the donors who give to crew and the people crews trying to reach and The people that work for crew are on different pages,

01:14:26

I think In general Singleness many cultures teach that singleness leaves a person alone and unfulfilled.

01:14:34

I mean The Bible kind of says it wasn't good for Adam to be alone, right?

01:14:41

That's why he had a wife the life of Jesus challenges this powerful cultural myth.

01:14:46

So it's a cultural myth Okay, he was single and celibate yet. He experienced fullness of life Jesus helps us see that sex romance and marriage are not required for thriving

01:14:53

Sure, if you have the gift of singleness if I mean by God's grace you can get through trials you can but but that's

01:15:00

Again, it's it's like you we have scripture on this, right? Singleness actually does leave a person alone in a sense

01:15:07

It doesn't mean that God can't be there with them, right? But God's it doesn't mean that God can't help them through that.

01:15:13

It doesn't mean that God can't teach patience It doesn't mean that maybe God can't give the gift of singleness But it does leave a person like in alone like that that is

01:15:24

Unfortunately, and and then some of the crews material that they give out To in the previous documents

01:15:30

I showed you is material on you'll find Substitute language you'll find like well, you know,

01:15:37

I'm same -sex attracted. I might not get married. But here are some They I don't even know if they say substitute, but here are some like alternatives here

01:15:45

Here are some things you can do you can have these these partnerships with other people and it's not sexual so it's okay and you can have

01:15:52

Fulfilling friendships and pursue though and none of those I'm just gonna say none of those are substitutes for God's created design

01:15:58

They're just not They're great things to have though. So We shouldn't we should be careful of not giving the impression that they are.

01:16:06

All right Well, that's all I wanted to highlight in this There is much more and I if you follow me on social media links are in the info section for this video or podcast audio

01:16:17

You will find a post there soon this afternoon where you can Find all this stuff now,

01:16:23

I'm gonna go through a few other things that are publicly available But I do want to see if there's questions out there

01:16:30

Before We we go forward. So any questions? I'm looking for question marks in the comments and I'll be sure to try to address

01:16:40

Christian mama says when is the last time I heard a pastor speak about the dangers of hell. It's not often That's for sure.

01:16:46

It is not often I Think that that's probably one of the most neglected things

01:16:56

Let's see. I don't know what this is in reference to Doug Meek seems to have a problem with me

01:17:03

But which is fine, but I don't know what all his Comments are in reference to necessarily He doesn't think

01:17:09

I'm reading in context, well it the the public documents gonna be there very soon so if people want to challenge me on it, that's perfectly fine, but I think

01:17:18

I've been as True to it as I know how to be and even it like I said

01:17:23

I've said this like three or four times if you don't agree with every single thing I said It's like there's some very very

01:17:33

Over -the -line things in that document like any Believer should be able with any ounce of discernment should be able to see this is a big problem

01:17:43

Even if you you know, some of my some of my points you don't like or whatever Elijah Gorkowski says

01:17:52

I supported a crew staff member for 25 years and then stopped in 2020 with the BLM stuff I know of many such cases, unfortunately

01:18:01

Let's see We have Christian mom again. So John do born -again Christians affiliate with crew.

01:18:07

Should they leave the organization? I think I'm gonna save that to the end What should they do? So yes.

01:18:13

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Doug for the $5 donation. I appreciate that alright, so we're going to we're going to go further into this and Not that document but some of the publicly available documents that crew has

01:18:32

That that you can or crew supports I should say I did want to point out that I did find out that there if you just go to the crew website and type in Preston Sprinkle In in June of July of 2021 now crew does a lot of training

01:18:46

So I'm not saying all the trainings are like this or anything But they had the Institute of Biblical Studies which exists to help develop

01:18:51

Christ centered missionary. So his missions training They did a course and one of the required readings

01:18:57

Which was a Rachel Gilson article in Christianity Day an interview with Preston Sprinkle So if you know some of this stuff is getting into like Not just here.

01:19:09

Here's what our staff. Here's here's like a reference point for staff who are dealing with these issues

01:19:14

But you know, here's training actual training for some of the staff. So I don't know how extensive that is

01:19:22

But and and ironically, I don't know well, it's not ironic but oddly I guess crew

01:19:27

Singapore their media ministry They have a bunch of stuff. That's like like they sell these books.

01:19:33

I don't know why it's unique to Singapore, but it is crew Living in a gray world by Preston Sprinkle.

01:19:40

They sell on their website They sell single gay Christian and there were a few other books and single gay Christian. I've reviewed on the podcast

01:19:46

That's it. That's an awful book in my opinion now There were some pastoral papers that they suggested these are papers that you can share

01:19:55

With people and with crew stamp of approval. These have been vetted okay, these are from Preston Sprinkles ministry if you want to want to call it a ministry and One of them this one is called

01:20:08

Pastoral paper on written by Preston Sprinkle on a biblical conversation about transgender identity

01:20:14

So I we are running out of time very quickly I'm just gonna go to one place though that I highlighted on this he says sex difference is upheld and celebrated while cultural stereotypes of gender expression are resisted and sometimes confronted

01:20:29

Again, we shouldn't force everyone into narrow gender stereotypes that come from culture and not the Bible So I wanted to just point out again the posture here when it comes to gender expression and Stereotypes those should be resisted and confronted that kind of language is not used of confronting

01:20:49

LGBT stuff it's used of confronting gender stereotypes There's much more aggressive against gender stereotypes than LGBT stuff.

01:20:58

That should like clue you into it. There's a huge huge problem here Here's another one that crew puts a stamp of approval on this is written by Nate Collins and Greg Cole's So this is on same -sex attraction or is being gay a sin.

01:21:13

Here's some of the things It says by coming to understand that same -sex orientation is not itself sinful and by banishing the phrase being gay is a sin

01:21:20

From our Christian vocabulary We will be far better equipped to guide those both within and beyond the walls of our church into deeper relationships with Christ These are these are all pastoral implications, right?

01:21:30

So so often, you know, you're here, you know, I'm gonna be pastoral It's like you put on that Compassion that human that good bedside manner kind of voice and and this is what they're saying

01:21:42

Ought to be the application of their teaching here first Recognize that same -sex orientation is not a sin will free sexual minorities within our congregations from the burden of unnecessary guilt and shame

01:21:51

So you experience same -sex orientation? No guilt or shame with that it is possible to repent of the sinful byproducts of same -sex orientation and To journey into a deeper intimacy with Christ without also repenting of same -sex orientation and becoming straight

01:22:06

So you don't need to conform to God's design or think of yourself that way you can still be same -sex attracted

01:22:11

And have that orientation and be perfectly fine as a believer without sin if a same -sex orientated

01:22:18

Woman is told that her capacity for same -sex lust is already sinful She may be more likely to give in to lustful thoughts or to sexual activity because she feels she has already sinned by merely noticing

01:22:28

Her orientation that is such a pragmatic argument like It's it's like this this if you know, but scenario like if she does this

01:22:40

Or you know if and she'll do this I just I Don't have words

01:22:48

It's like Would you do this with any other sin? I guess just put the shoe on the other foot It's like oh no, if we you know,

01:22:54

I'm just a you know, I have a white supremacist orientation I like to use that one not because I like to pick up pick on that That philosophy or that way of thinking if it is

01:23:05

I don't even know if it's a philosophy but that that buzzword Because the world picks on that all the time

01:23:11

But it's because I know crew has a weak spot in this area like that's the thing that they're afraid of So if I just substituted that something that they consider very bad and said, you know

01:23:20

I'm a white supremacist oriented Christian or whatever, you know, and the capacity for white supremacy is

01:23:27

Sinful if that's sinful then man, I I might just go burn a cross somewhere or do you know like that's so stupid

01:23:33

It's that's the word for it. It is stupid How about if it's a if it's a minor sin or and when

01:23:41

I say minor no sin is minor So what a lesser sin it has a lesser penalty a lesser civil penalty.

01:23:46

It is a few steps before Let's say Committing the the act in the flesh, but it's it's still a sin.

01:23:55

Jesus said looking with lust sin Why don't you just say nip it in the bud? Not even a hint of sexual morality

01:24:01

How about that and maybe that should do what the Bible says and inspire you to avoid the greater sins out there

01:24:08

Fourth by correcting the false belief that same -sex orientation is sinful We become able to address and challenge the sins of pride and homophobia among heterosexual

01:24:16

Christians Finally once we recognize that being gay is not a sin

01:24:22

We will be far better situated to engage in missional conversations with sexual minorities outside the church. So Yeah, we're just gonna be a better witness and we're gonna be able to confront, you know heterosexual sin better and it's just gonna be so great once we

01:24:34

Realize that same -sex orientation or homosexual orientation isn't really a sin Here's another document.

01:24:40

I only have I think two more that I wanted to show you This is should Christians attend a gay wedding ceremony a same -sex wedding ceremony

01:24:47

The conclusion is I believe that there's six options that we can be faithful to the biblical view that marriage is between two sexually different Persons as long as you don't send mixed signals to the couple getting married again we are talking about something that's not specifically discussed in Scripture now if you want to know what these six options are and Whether or not some of them include attending the wedding.

01:25:06

Yes Even though at the beginning there's all this language about like I wouldn't do that I don't like I don't think it's it's obviously

01:25:13

I disapprove of that and then you get like well there's all these options you can go to this to the wedding or go to the

01:25:19

The reception without going to the wedding or you can go to the wedding while at least telling the people that are being married

01:25:25

That you object and you like so yeah, I guess I guess you there's circumstances for attending and then here's another document

01:25:33

This is by Robert Smith a pastoral paper on guidance for churches on baptism membership on communion leadership for transgender people and he says at the end

01:25:43

We are to pursue psycho And I can't even say it's psychosomatic wholeness

01:25:49

That means welcoming our biological sex is a good gift of God and aligning our gender in all its aspects and manifestations with that sex

01:25:57

So again, it's the separation of gender and sex that that it's that same in a psychosomatic probably is the right word for it

01:26:06

Because you're you're doing psychology at that point. This isn't what's the biblical way to approach this?

01:26:12

What is what is what we're called to do from the Bible about this? And yes, there's Bible verses cited in this but some of them, you know

01:26:19

They're not the ones that should be applied like for instance Isaiah 56 to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbath who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant

01:26:27

I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and names better than sons and daughters. Okay, obviously that's you know

01:26:34

That's not transgenderism and and then they say well, it's not transgenderism But hey, there's a connection here like it's verses like that don't help like what?

01:26:43

Actual things from the Bible help you with this if you are struggling with this We're supposed to mortify the flesh right supposed to put to death the deeds of the flesh that wage war you're supposed to Those who are spiritual are supposed to restore the person who is in these situations

01:27:01

So someone who doesn't have that problem is the one that should help you overcome that problem Um You know, you should put your mind on the things of Christ Where Christ is

01:27:12

Philippines for I mean, there's so many passages that address this kind of thing and it's not about Aligning your gender with your sex as if there's like two different things.

01:27:23

It's about acknowledging who God made you to be He made you a man or he made you a woman.

01:27:29

It's just an acknowledgment. I Believe a lie now. I need to believe the truth

01:27:35

That's what it is. It's not like well, I I have this this sex that's fixed in this way

01:27:40

And I believe that now but I also have this gender thing That's not and I need to kind of work at this but it's it's a separate thing.

01:27:48

It's like this separate part of me And it's like no. No, there's that's that's just there's just sin.

01:27:55

That's all it is you've seen you believe a lie Conform to what the truth is All right, so these are all the pastoral papers are linked on the crew website actually so At least one of them

01:28:08

I found fairly easily on the crew website So I think that that's that that's a simple thing. I will take any questions

01:28:15

I will answer the question that I was asked earlier. I said I'd answer at the end Should you still be involved with crew?

01:28:21

Here's the thing about it Crews of large organization. It's like asking should I be involved with the SBC or any large

01:28:27

Christian organization? Some will claim that the doctrine of separation means absolutely.

01:28:33

Yes, there's a compromise somewhere Even if it's a small one, you must get out of there I mean, I guess if you work for Liberty University, and there's another professor who's teaching something bad you you're connected to them get out

01:28:43

I don't necessarily think that here's what I do think though I do think that you can't have fellowship with darkness and that's the question you have to ask

01:28:53

Are you having fellowship with darkness by being part of crew now? The kinds how you'd answer that question would be examining

01:29:02

In your neck of the woods on your campus with your leadership. What is what is being involved with crew look like?

01:29:10

Now, I'm not aware. I know I've been told I think in the past, but if you have a donor You know, are you getting a hundred?

01:29:15

how much of that money are you getting like how much of that is going to your ministry if you're faithful in the ministry somewhere and How much of it is going towards the organization at the top for funding these kinds of nonsense things?

01:29:28

That's another question. You need to ask yourself, you know, am I asking donors to fund something? That's against what they and I believe and the scripture teaches the other thing you can ask is is there any sign that crews going to Stop doing this and do an about -face and repent and that repentant pretence needs to be immediate and it needs to be public

01:29:46

At least because much of what I shared with you in the last part of this podcast was public So that's the other question.

01:29:52

I think you need to Just think through and and you need to confront it now if you don't get anywhere in the confrontation and you find out

01:30:00

I work For an organization that's not going to budge on this. They're funding this stuff. Then I think yes

01:30:06

At that point. I think it would be wise to leave if you if I think this with crew

01:30:11

The ship has probably already sunk in a way because of the failure of the group and when

01:30:16

I say failure I don't mean that they failed in disseminating their message, but they failed to reform crew of the concerned group in 2020 -2021 put out a document to try to internally to try to persuade crew to Take the get the pedal bring their foot off the pedal of the gas of the gas of the woke stuff

01:30:37

And to slow it down put on the brake That didn't really work out And so I think that that is just a sign and I happen to know many other things behind the scenes that caused me to also say that but With this particular issue has it been confronted?

01:30:52

I know some of you might want to know and the answer is I believe so Yes, in fact, I know it has

01:30:57

At the higher levels. Yes By multiple people I believe so and there may be more information on that coming but As far as it goes now

01:31:10

I mean this is the information that crew has put out there and They just need to do something very simple and it's something that I think all of Christians should be used to doing

01:31:20

Apologize repent move on If they do that, then, you know That's a sign that the organization is an organization you can partner with because they're behaving in a

01:31:29

Christlike manner But if they cover up if they deny if they disguise if they deflect nope That's not the organization you want to be in and I do happen to know many crew staff who've gone to other

01:31:38

Organizations or they've talked to their donors and they say this is what's happening. I'm leaving. Will you still support me? I'm gonna start a 501c3 and That does happen.

01:31:47

I mean donors will one guy told me recently a hundred percent of his donors left with him So that's another thing

01:31:53

And it may even be a better arrangement. Everyone. I know who's left does not regret it So that's all

01:32:00

I have for the podcast today if there's any other questions, I'll try to get to them now Is it true that crew kicked out

01:32:07

Josh McDowell of you or I don't know that he's kicked out of the organization I think he was reprimanded and put on some kind of like a probation

01:32:15

Period like he wasn't allowed to speak or something like that, but I don't think he was kicked out of the whole organization

01:32:23

That's a that's I did I did a podcast on that a while back The problem is the individual leaders need to be held accountable to biblical appointed elders.

01:32:30

What churches do these people go to? That's a good point. That's one of the issues I've had with campus Organizations that do not partner with local churches for a while if the church wants to use a campus organization

01:32:41

To benefit their ministry. That's great. If members of a church want to do that. I'm I'm a

01:32:46

I have been involved recently not really since the summer because of personal situations and just time but I Hope to be involved again in a ministry at the

01:32:57

Culinary Institute of America and at that particular ministry There is no affiliation with an outside group.

01:33:04

I know there's groups that have wanted to affiliate but it's just you know church related Stuff and the church oversees it and the church is you know, it is a great relationship better than any other campus ministry

01:33:16

I've been a part of and I've been a part of probably I don't know five so It's the best

01:33:23

I've seen and so yes, I think that in many cases you do not need one of these organizations

01:33:29

If you're a small church and you could use the resources then make sure you're using the resources and the organization isn't using you

01:33:35

Or replacing you that's a Ministry is supposed to be done through the church.

01:33:41

So that's exactly right Adam asks trans kids don't deserve to be saved.

01:33:49

I don't know where you're getting that So people who think of themselves as trans because no one is people are the gender

01:33:56

God made them to be someone who thinks of themselves and thinks there's something that they're not just like someone who thinks that They should have the right hand cut off or something like that They're in error, they're believing a lie and lies are sinful and so They no one actually deserves to be saved technically but they have those people who have that sin have the same opportunity to repent that Anyone else has with any other sin, right?

01:34:26

They can repent of it and there are people who have considered themselves trans who do not now who have repented and they've come to Christ Okay, I think that's all the questions

01:34:40

Doug says that crew Singapore also sells Rosario's book I wonder if it's Rosario's new book though, because her old books contain some of these same some of the errors that we've been discussing

01:34:54

And he wants to know what staff members gave me access Yes, I'm sure that people within crew would love to know what staff members gave me access to the documents

01:35:05

All right, so yeah, I'm obviously not answering that that's That's not even that's not a question.

01:35:12

I'll entertain whether or not they did or didn't is something for them If they gave me anything to share

01:35:19

But this is something that I think Everyone at Who's supporting crew

01:35:26

I think has a right to know they need to know that this is this organ you're funding it if you're a Owner, okay.

01:35:31

You're the one that's actually paying for this organization to operate and And you these are the kinds of things if there's compromise internally going on Especially you need to know about that.

01:35:43

It makes sense of some of those things you've heard It makes sense of the Rachel Gilson thing. We we watched from was it 2019 or something, but it was from a crew event

01:35:52

It was a few it was last week. I did with Jared Moore. We reviewed this Rachel Gilson thing and it was that crew and It makes sense of that kind of thing, you know, and when

01:36:02

Rachel Gilson is confronted on it She comes out with this orthodox sounding statement But it's like that's not what you said in your teaching and you haven't actually rejected your teaching

01:36:10

So that it just takes a little humility and repentance, but that that seems a hard thing for people to do Well, we've been going over an hour and a half.

01:36:18

We got to stop. We got to land this plane I hope that was helpful for you all out there. I know I may take some shots for this one and I'm okay with that It's not about me none of this is about me and like I said, you're free to disagree with any of my analysis

01:36:31

But the truth is the important thing and that's why Follow me on social media. The links are in the info section and you will have access to those documents within the next hour

01:36:40

If you want to support what I do, I mean, you're not going to get this information in many other places The patreon link is there as well.

01:36:47

I appreciate everyone who has supported me, especially During this hard time with my family. It's just been moving into the holidays

01:36:54

I just appreciate your prayers. It's been difficult with the passing of my mother -in -law and and some other things.