February 23, 2016 Show with Michael J. Kruger on “Canon Revisited: Establishing the Origins & Authority of the New Testament Books” plus Richard Barcellos on “Better Than the Beginning: Creation in Biblical Perspective”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth Who are listening via live -streaming? This is Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd day of February 2016

I'm very excited about today's program and please Stop making fun of me for repeating that line at the beginning of every program, but I just can't help it

I get great guests on my show and I'm a doubly excited because our first guest

During our two -hour broadcast today is on for the very first time and it's somebody that I have greatly admired

Admired from afar as they say He is dr. Michael Kruger.

He's gonna be talking about the canon revisited Establishing the origins and authority of the

New Testament books and Dr. Michael J Kruger who received his

PhD from the University of Edinburgh is professor of New Testament and the president of reformed theological seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina and he is the author of the gospel of the

Savior and the co -author of Gospel fragments and the heresy of orthodoxy among other books and his research on Christian origins has made him a

Trusted authority in the development of the New Testament canon and for our second hour later on at 5 p .m.

Eastern We're gonna have Richard Barcellos He has not been on the program for years.

He was on the old iron sharpens iron He was participating in a debate on the new covenant theology

But Richard Barcellos who is on for the first time on the new iron sharpens iron today

We're going to discuss his book better than the beginning at creation in biblical perspective

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of their own The email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen at gmail .com

That's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Michael J Kruger Thanks Yeah, it's great to have you on the show and My co -host in studio with me who you've already met briefly off -air is

The Reverend John Busby Taylor or as I call him Reverend buzz. It's great to have you back in studios my co -host thanks great to be here again and It is also interesting that I found out providentially as I was arranging this interview as Dr.

Kruger had just confirmed before the program started that he was a pastoral intern in the 1990s,

I believe at the very church where I am now a member of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania small world

Dr. Kruger, but just out of curiosity. Are you still a Baptist? Well, not exactly

I actually have fond fond memories of my time at Grace Baptist and have so much love and respect for that congregation

I'm actually in the PCA now And I'm sure that the chagrin of some of my reform

Baptist friends, but still have a deep appreciation and respect for For that church and for that that whole group and just really appreciated my time with them.

Well shows over Well my My co -host buzz

Taylor is grinning ear -to -ear enthusiastically about that since he is Presbyterian as you know

That's right, well the Canon revisited this is a very valuable book indeed

I don't know if you're aware. Dr. Kruger, but for the last 20 years of my life

I have been very actively involved in arranging theological debates live public moderated debates

Most frequently involving my dear friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministry who defends historic

Protestantism and more specifically Calvinism and He in his

Catholic debates I think the thing that the the Roman Catholic Church views as our greatest

Achilles heel is this very subject they do not believe that we can trust in the

Canon that we have without depending upon the Roman Catholic Church because there is no inspired table of contents in our

Bibles But if you could actually before we even go into that Some of our listeners may be confused by some of this language.

We I know that we do have new Christians Often listening to the program and some of our listeners are not

Christians at all. I know that we even have Muslim listeners but The Canon, what are you actually referring to and that's not a word exclusively used for the scriptures

Obviously, it's used for secular literature as well. What is the Canon referring to? Yeah, when

Christians speak of the Canon of the Bible or the canon of scripture They're referring most most directly to just the collection of books that we regard as God's Word so you could refer to it as a list you could refer to it as the collection there's lots of ways to say it the word can actually as a

Hebraic background to it. It just it simply means, you know rule or standard some some sense of measuring

And when you when you look at the the question of what we should believe our standard our rule our ultimate authority is the

Bible or the canon of scripture and we believe of course that includes the 66 books 39 the old 27 and the new as I opened up the program with the the the accusation of the

Roman Catholic Church or Roman Catholic apologists and individuals is that You you don't have your

Bible without us giving it to you. The Roman Catholic Church is the one Who who chose what books were to be included and what books were?

Included and so on they will cite that as the reason that we don't have the Apocrypha They will cite the fact that we do not have an inspired or God -breathed table of contents if you could to go into that a little bit

Unfortunately led to many Protestants leaving Their churches and heading over to Rome. It's been one of their standard go -to arguments for a long time

The problem of course is the argument is it's fundamentally flawed at a number of levels and we could mention

Historical level it's highly problematic the idea that you can't have a canon without authoritative declarations or a church just doesn't pan out historically

There's a couple examples of that one is is that there was a functioning can and even in the second century You've got the moratorium fragment that represent that lists a number of the 27 books.

You've got early church fathers Using citing preaching from and acknowledging New Testament books as scripture and all this is happening long before there was any formal church declarations on the matter

Church declarations happen, but they weren't the thing that created the canon They're the result of there being a canon the church declarations acknowledged what was already there

It was more of a declaration of what the current situation was rather than what it ought to be And so there's a there's a fundamental part before the horse problem just on the historical ordering

Another example of the Old Testament canon if one needs an infallible authoritative Inspired church to make declarations before you can have a can and then then how the

Old Testament Believers in the time of Jesus know what books to read how did they know which ones were in the canon?

In fact, Jesus cites biblical books all the time And there's never any indication that there was any doubt at all about which books were scripture

So that whole premise is fundamentally flawed and most obviously at a historical level.

Yeah, that's an excellent Retort as far as the Old Testament believers and we do

I usually don't take questions this early from our listeners, but Since it applies directly to what you're speaking of.

I will take a question from pastor Bruce and center each Long Island, New York Who asks how do we know we have all the proper books in the

New Testament? Yeah, well, this is an issue that I bring up and actually my book canon revisited

And I call this the providential exposure issue Part of what we what we're dealing with and we talk about which books wrong in a canon is the book that we know about The books that we have access to the writings that God has preserved for us providentially

We acknowledge that there's books that have been inspired that we no longer possess and there's no doubt about this

Paul We don't wrote other letters. He actually tells us he wrote the letters that we don't have But under the providential exposure

Category I make the argument my book that we have good reasons to think that it's the book that God preserved for his church

We actually have actually have access to that the ones that we can consider as part of the canons So the question of last book is an interesting one.

I don't think it's a red herring the real issue It should be stated like this other books. We know about how do we determine which are canonical which are not?

That's a better way to say it As far as speculating on which books we don't know about we can only trust the providence of God preserved and kept the books

He wanted his church to have Yeah Obviously you have people all the time.

Not only Roman Catholics, but you have liberals Constantly getting titillated by documentaries they see on television and they'll say why did the church remove

The gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Judas and the gospel of Mary and all these other books that were not found in our

New Testament canon, they will act as if a council of Christians or Catholics set around and actually removed books that were considered to be a part of the

Bible already But if you could comment on that Gospel of Thomas gospel of Mary gospel of Peter So it is really helpful for Christians because I think once you start looking at that issue

You realize what a vast difference there is between Matthew Mark Luke and John and say the gospel of Thomas and how those church that the church received those books

The idea that Thomas was removed from the Canada's is is patently False and it's a misunderstanding of the way the canon developed

The gospel Thomas has never had a serious shot at being in the can it was never really considered canonical

Whatever you received by early Christians as a scriptural book In fact it the few times it's mentioned and it's hardly mentioned in patristic sources is it's it's roundly condemned

It never really was close people make it sound like there was this narrow vote or things like this No, but the gospel of Thomas never really had a shot at all in fact

When you compare the the four canonical gospels with all these other gospels you realize very quickly that that those gospels were generally ignored

Condemned or very rarely used in the early church and the books that were used Far away the most often or Matthew Mark Luke and John so there really is no comparison between canonical gospels and these other gospels and Obviously I'm assuming from the question or the answer that you gave to Pastor Bruce's question about do we know that we have all the books?

I'm assuming that you believe since providentially For all we know for the last 2 ,000 years or most of the two millennia that have passed since Christ's presence on the earth

Since that that length of time has passed that what we have is is sufficient

To be embraced by the people of God as as God's Word Even though there may have been other inspired books that you in fact there were as you said

Yeah, absolutely You know we believe that God preserved the books that were necessary and and needed for the life of the church and obviously if he did

Not preserve a book that in his providential wisdom. He did not see that book is foundational to the church's existence

And and I think there's also interesting reasons to speculate why some books were preserved and not others one particular

Reason we think might be the case is that an ancient world when you would write a letter to someone you would often have a scribe

Make a copy of that letter before you sent it out So actually what what ancient writers did is actually had archives of their own letters, so they not only sent a letter

They actually kept a copy of their own letter when they sent it. We know this from a number of different ancient historical sources

And what's interesting is that some letters of Paul are lost the speculation, and I think it's a helpful speculation

It's probably true is that for whatever set of reasons Paul didn't have someone available to make a copy of that letter before he sent

It out and so some letters were sent out without his own copy Which is possibly reason why we have some of his letters and not others we do have a

Listener identifying himself as a Roman Catholic in Youngstown, Ohio He said wasn't the

D2K considered scripture by some of the early Christian churches Were there any other books so considered and did any of the reformers try to knock out any of the

New Testament books? from the Canon I'm thinking of Martin Luther and James Right The Writer or the question there is referring to a book called the

D2K which is a Greek word for teaching It's a book that's dated right around the turn of the century at the very end of the first or early second century

It contains the earliest Christian teaching about a variety of issues in church life Issues pertaining to baptism issues pertaining to the way you handle visiting prophets and and these sorts of things

It's a very interesting book and Christians find it useful They cite it from time to time and rely on it, but there's no indication anywhere that it was

Regarded as a scriptural book and never gained that sort of status We have to realize is that a lot of books were deemed to be

Orthodox and deemed to be useful But not necessarily deemed to be scripture So we can't assume that every time a patristic writer uses a book that he necessarily assumes that scriptural

The D2K is an example of that and with those other examples of that a book called the Shepherd of Hermas is the same kind Of book it's a second century book that was widely popular

But there's only a few indications that even some people thought I had a scriptural status the vast majority of the people thought as simply useful

After that question that the writer Offered there remind me what that was he says

Let's see. Did any of the Reformers try to knock out any of the New Testament books and he's yeah

Yes, he refers to the famous instance where Luther critiques the book of James and This is a well -known

Fact that Luther was critical of the book of James He thought it's problematic because it didn't in his mind at least to articulate the gospel clear enough

You'll find that a Luther later in his life backed off that to some extent and was much more measured in his comments in his early years

Luther was known for as we all know being a little bit Extreme in some of his statements and no doubt

James caught some of his ire, but in the end even in his translation of the German Bible Indications that toward the end of his life.

He regarded it as scriptural and He beats Has another quick question was there any books any other books that almost?

Didn't make it into the Canon I Assume the author's asking about the early church.

Yeah, I'm not the Reformation, right? the most controversial books and when I say controversial

Not compared to books like the Gospel Thomas at the book that that had the roughest road into the New Testament Are the smallest ones interestingly?

books like James Jude 2nd Peter 2nd 3rd John and so on are the ones that we have the less the least amount of Evidence for in the early church

And so there's no surprise about that the books that were the smallest Were used the least and so those are the books that face the most difficulty however in the end there was a wide consensus on these books, even though there was a

Dispute about them in certain quarters before I was over the church had settled on these as divinely inspired and part of God's Word So when we talk about are there books that barely made it in or almost didn't make it in I think that terminology just isn't helpful.

I think the better way to ask it is was there a controversy? any level about some books and there's only really a handful that that was true of and By the way,

I want to let the both Bruce and Peter know that you are getting a free copy

Each getting a free copy of the Canon revisited by Michael J Kruger, but I need your mailing addresses.

So Please email me your full mailing addresses Not just the city and state where you're from.

And by the way, I have to apologize to our Canadian and overseas listeners The free books that we're giving away today.

You do not You're not eligible for these. I am sorry because our Sponsor CV BBS who mails these out free of charge for us

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service They would have an astronomical Bill at the end of each month be due to the high volume of books.

We give away on Iron Trip and Zion if They included the overseas listeners.

So but we would still love to hear from you with your questions We just can't send you free books. Sorry about that And we have

I think an excellent question that probably should have been My first question to start off the program

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania writes, what are the tests of canonicity?

Yeah, well actually it's that question that is the whole basis for my book and revisited So as the the writer may know there's a whole debate about out there about what are the?

what are the what are the standards that we're looking at when we determine a book to be canonical and Scholars have debated and discussed this for four years

I Challenged the standard way that conversation unfolds. I have the question if we're asking about the criteria for canonicity ask an earlier question

What is our criteria for our criteria? in other words If I'm going to pick things that make a book canonical, where am

I getting that list from right? Am I am I making it up? Am I deciding out of thin air that I think a book is canonical if it has

XYZ characteristics if I do that And really I'm just creating my own candidates. I have to get my criteria from something that itself is authoritative

And here's where I come up with what I argue is the is the not only the biblical Bible But also the historical model canon from Augustine through the reformers and that is what we call a self -authenticating model we have to ask the biblical books about their own authentication and what they

Lay out as the is the is the attributes of canon and in my volume I articulate this in more detail but in essence the attributes of canonicity include you know apostolic origins the divine qualities and also the reception of the people of God the church

And then those three together I think give us a lot of assurance about which books belong to which books do not

And you're also getting a free copy of the book Susan Canon revisited by dr. Michael J.

Kruger. Thank you very much for that question We have a question from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Jeff asks, how should we think about the

Antilegamons these books that had more doubts and the confidence we can have in their status

Yeah I think the authors are referring to Eusebius as categories of books

I'm not I'm not able to see the email in front of me But I'm guessing that he's quoting a phrase that Eusebius uses it as ecclesiastical history refer to the disputed books

And what you'll note is that what Eusebius acknowledges are the disputed books are the ones I mentioned a moment ago, which is

You know the smaller books 2nd Peter 2nd 3rd John Jude and James and books like this

And the thing that's noteworthy about that is a it's explainable largely on the basis of the small size of these books

But it's also in the industry that the the debated books are very small number of books. It's only about four or five books 21 out of say the 27 books

Maybe 22 out of the 27 books of the New Testament Canon were well established even in the middle of the second century

And so you're talking about controversy over a very small number that that fact alone is noteworthy because it tells you the church had wide

Consensus on the core of the Canon at a very early time Regardless of how the debates went with these smaller books the essence of the

Canon was already established many centuries before and that I think is one of the reasons we can be sure that the

Canon we have is the Right one is that you had a very vast wide early consensus consensus on these core books

And it's those core books that lay out the theological trajectory that even helps you adjudicate the disputes over the smaller ones and so if you have the

If you have Paul's letters that helps you determine whether the teachings and say 2nd Peter or the kind of teachings that fit with with what the

Apostles would say it's that kind of reasoning that gives us assurance that these small books also fit into the

Canon and The apocryphal books I know that your your book is on the

New Testament Canon but The the Catholic Church when they hurl the accusation that we have no business

Telling anybody who which book is to be included in the Canon or not whether it's old or new

They will cite that we removed the apocryphal books from the Old Testament Canon, but isn't it true that the

Jews never in recorded history embraced the Old Testament apocryphal books as Canon Listeners may be confused on what we mean by a school of deuterocanonical

Right. So the term apocryphal as an adjective can be used to describe the

New Testament writings Or sorry, not New Testament writings But but New Testament era writings like the gospel of Thomas It would be considered an apocryphal gospel and what's called the

New Testament apocryphal Includes books like Thomas or Peter or the gospel of Mary and things like this But when we talk about the apocryphal in general, usually that's a reference to those

Old Testament Era books that Roman Catholics receive that Protestants do not as you put it also known as the deuterocanonicals

Those books include books like the first and second Maccabees Judith Tobit and so on that the

Roman Catholic Church has received at the Council of Trent officially in the 16th century as Scriptural and Protestants have never recognized them as such

You've already hit on the main reason that Protestants don't recognize them and it's simple It's actually remarkably simple and that is there's no indication that First century

Jews in the days of Jesus nor Jesus himself recognized these books at all as scripture In fact, here's an interesting fact for you every single time an

Old Testament book is cited as scripture in the New Testament It always comes from the collection of 66 or sorry the collection of 39

Old Testament books in the Protestant canon Not a single time not a single time Is a is a is there a citation of the

Catholic apocrypha as scripture in the New Testament? Not a single one That's that fact is stunning.

I mean if these books were widely received as scripture if they were not a scripture Where are the citations in the

New Testament writers who cite the Old Testament? Extensively as scripture not a single time that they ever cite these apocryphal books of scripture and that that fact is

It's just looming there and is the reason why the Protestant Church has said look that the

Jews didn't receive these books Jesus didn't receive these books and we have no reason to think that these books are scriptural and Well, one of the

Catholic retorts to that would be yes But Jesus Christ himself quoted from the

Septuagint and the Septuagint includes the apocrypha the Greek version of the Old Testament Yeah, well, actually

Jesus wouldn't have quoted from the Septuagint because he probably spoke Aramaic And what what what they mean?

I think is that the gospel writers who record the words of Jesus cite those texts in the in the

Septuagint But the extent of the Septuagint itself is is a debated topic In in terms of what books were in and what books were not in in the

Greek Old Testament So that doesn't quite solve it either most of the time the Roman Catholic responses

Look, the New Testament writers weren't exhausted and what they quoted so simply because they didn't quote the

Old Testament apocrypha It doesn't mean they didn't regard it as scripture. You Protestants are just using an argument from silence.

So the argument goes But that's a pretty loud silence

And I think it still demands an explanation one of the questions that Jeff from Philadelphia asks

He says although you specialize in in the New Testament Any lessons? Can we learn about?

The canonical status of the Old Testament apocrypha and books or Could they be used in any way by the church today, even if they're not considered to be inspired

Yeah, absolutely And this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier early

Christians recognize a number of books is highly useful That they never would regard as scripture, but yet found found profitable and helpful

I already mentioned the did I case an example of this the Shepherd of Hermas was an example of this Looks like the

Epistle of Barnabas or first Colment other other what we call Apostolic writings of the Apostolic Fathers Or these kinds of books that the church generally speaking did not regard as scripture, but found useful and profitable

I think we could say the same about the Old Testament apocrypha those books are Useful they bring all kinds of insight and help and even wisdom, but that's a far cry from saying that they're

Scriptural books. It's not that different than the way we use books today. I mean I always tell people

Look, what if your library? What if your personal theological library got buried in the sand and was discovered a thousand years later?

What would they conclude you believed was in the Bible? You know they might look at your reading and say this guy read

Calvin's Institutes more than just about anything out there But therefore this man must have thought that Calvin's Institutes were scripture, but that's not true at all

You can read a book a lot You can even read a book more than some books of the Bible, but yet not believe it's scripture

Well, you don't even have to bury them to be accused of that And if this

Recording lasts far into the future I want the people of earth to know that mad magazine is not a part of the

Canon So I just want you to go Just want to let them know

Well guess what Jeff you have also received a free copy of our book today compliments of crossway and We're gonna need your full mailing address as well there in Philadelphia We're gonna be going to a break right now actually and if you'd like to join us on the air

Our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris ARN z n gmail .com

and we're gonna be right back with dr. Michael J Kruger, so don't go away I'm James White of Alpha Omega ministries

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that's wrbc .us Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in our guests for the first hour and Which is the remaining half hour now is dr.

Michael J. Kruger. We're discussing his book the canon revisited Dr. Michael J. Kruger is the president of the reformed theological seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina and If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com You bring up a point in your book that involves the supernatural in the authentication of the

New Testament canon My sheep hear my voice The quote from Jesus Christ himself about his sheep

Hearing his voice knowing him and following him if you could comment on that Yeah, when you're critical scholars

You know talk about the New Testament canon. They typically say look, you know There's no way for people to know which books belong which books don't

This is just a you know Free for all you have no historical basis or way to know these things

What they usually discount is that there's any any activity of the spirit taking place here at all

And you know that sort of anti -supernatural biases is pretty widespread in In the world of critical scholarship

I simply put out the book is that the Bible's own testimony to its authentication, which is obviously a key starting point for us

Is that look, you know, there's a mechanism by which God gives namely God uses his spirit to help people see what is it?

What is what is objectively true about the biblical? Writings and this is what I refer to as divine qualities qualities or what

I refer to as marks or attributes or characteristics that that that that that are Indicative of a book being being from God and the question is how do you see those those attributes?

How do you see those characteristics? Well, the only way you can apprehend them rightly since their spiritual characteristics is to have spiritual eyes to see

So I talk about at the core of the canon identification issue is an issue of person's spiritual eyesight and this is why

I put a lot of effort into the book to talking about the world the Holy Spirit in the identification of canonical books the

History of clinical studies has not typically done that what you find most studies of the canon being very bare -bones historical analysis without any real theological

Framework and I've tried to address that in my book by offering a more robust theological framework where the spirit has an active role

One of the controversial issues that arises in the debate

Over the King James only controversy involves the woman caught in adultery

The the passage from the Gospel of John in chapter 8 you have

Those who believe that that story is Not in the earliest manuscripts, so we cannot trust it to be genuinely a part of the canon and then you have others who will say that that's extremely heretical to dare even think of questioning that The canonicity of those passages, so if you could comment on your thoughts on that Yeah, so I think it's always helpful to make a distinction between issues of Canada issues of tax next

They're clearly related, but they're not the same and so what I tell people This is a very simple way to distinguish it that the study of the canon is a question of which books than the study of Textual criticism, which is what you're alluding to the study of will or which version of that book or another way to say it is

Which words in that book? And they're related of course, but they're also very distinguishable

We can we can affirm that the Gospel of John is in the canon in fact hardly any dispute about John existed in the early church

It was remarkably Well received early and wide But then there's a secondary question and that is will which text of John are we talking about?

And once you ask that question now you get into the world of textual criticism and for for evangelical

Christians It's a very simple question We believe that when when John was inspired to write that book that the

Holy Spirit inspired him But didn't necessarily inspire every single scribe that would ever You know write something down for the next 2 ,000 years

So we're always trying to get back to the original words of John Today most New Testament scholars agree that the story of the adulterous woman was not originally in John's Gospel And for evangelicals that believe that inspiration pertains to the original wording of John that would be a pretty compelling

Fact that happens to be the view. I hold. I don't think those that story was in John's Gospel originally And if it wasn't there originally then we would we would have no reason to regard it as part of the inspired book of John And that doesn't mean of course, it's not a useful story or maybe even a true story

There's interesting speculation about whether it's a part of oral tradition that made its way into the text at a later point But in terms of whether it's part of John's gospel that that I think uh is is doubtful, you know

That was a very important distinction between Canonization and textual criticism. I appreciate that but you know

There is another connection with the king james only debate debate that that enters in here And that is a both the king james only and those who question the

Or think that we've left out some books, uh believe that we didn't have the word of god until very recently if you think about it

No, that's exactly right. Um There's a very interesting parallel there where you know, uh, you know for 2 000 years supposedly

Uh, you know, no one had the bible and only now, you know, is it is it kind of put together rightly?

Um and and those are those are issues that definitely are in play and and of course they do need to be addressed because well, it's like you started in your your um,

Your preface that uh, the most enjoyable books to write are the ones that answer the questions you've been asking

Absolutely. Yeah, and uh, I don't know how many times i've heard people ask Uh questions like in my pastoring and so forth, you know, because if they're to put their faith in this book

Then how the how can they if unless they have evidence of this book being worthy of that faith and that's that's kind of you know of that's it seems like it should be more of a

Watershed issue than it is because of the fact that there's a lack of understanding the fact that we even have to have discussions Like this is showing that uh, there has been a lack

That's right. And I think that the typical books on canon and this is what motivated me to write this one Are actually uh, you know asking a different question than I was asking most books on canon are asking the question, uh,

Historically, how did this all unfold when did when did certain books start getting read and used as scripture by early christians?

Now that that kind of question is just a almost a purely historical question You can just go in and just pull out the data on that and and no one really disagrees about There's limitations of this of course, but no one really disagrees about the historical data

I instead though was asking a different question I wasn't so much interested in in the how and when books started getting used as scripture

Although that's important. My question was more fundamental, which is well, how do we know a book of scripture in the first place?

Uh, what what is the you know, sort of epistemological? Framework we're using for how we know a book from god when we see it

So mine was a mine was a very different kind of book And so what what people might be surprised to find is that my book

Although I have a lot of historical data in it. It's it's it's designed to be very theological Um in terms of the way it's set up because i'm asking a different question.

My question is how you know Not more not not so much what happened in history. Although that's important too, right?

Well, that's basically what the question that everybody's asking the same question. How do I know? Yeah, absolutely

And of course we have to be careful too because like as chris alluded at the beginning You know a lot of our information on these other books comes from you know

The history channel and so forth and we have to be extremely careful about revisionist history Yeah, extremely careful.

I'll tell you there's what's interesting about doing historical study is discovering how Often people have conceptions about things.

They're just absolutely Uh off base and they don't realize it because they're getting their information from the internet or from you know

These sorts of things in fact another book I wrote which is not the topic of today's discussion Is a book for ivp academic called the question of canon

And the book called the question can actually went through five misconceptions about canon one by one

And I deal with each each of those in a single chapter. So there's five main chapters in the book And I talk about these five misconceptions that are out there not only in the popular world actually

And this is maybe more surprising for people even in the academic world these These views are held and I think they're held on very thin ground well, you can see just uh the importance of the issue by the fact that uh

Well, it's not like i've been with chris over the years, but just for the few times i've been here co -hosting

I have never seen questions come in so quickly as they are today. So this obviously is hitting a nerve

Yeah, well, I think the average christian this is a very hot topic for them It just uh is it centerpiece of what they care about?

And by the way, uh inner varsity press is also has already shipped out that book to me

And I hope that you can return to discuss those five items that you mentioned. Yeah happy to do it

The nice thing about those five items is it divides the book up in a way that People can kind of understand simple categories

So we're gonna have a cliffhanger attached to our show today, which will whet the appetite of our listeners to To look out for the uh, the next program.

Yeah come back, but we don't know when uh, there are some who say that uh

Why are we or they should I should say they ask why are we even including the book of hebrews?

In the new testament canon when we don't even know who wrote it. How do you comment to that? Yeah, it's a very common question.

Um, it's interesting. I'm lecturing right now here at rts Uh, I have a class called hebrews to revelation.

And in fact the last couple weeks i've been Lecturing on the book of hebrews and uh, one of the first issues we brought up is the issue of authorship

And uh, it's interesting this bothers people, right? They they do they read a book and they're thinking wow If I don't know the author is then i'm i'm i'm upset by that what they don't realize of course

Is there's many old testament books that are in the same place, right? Um where we don't necessarily know who wrote these books.

Um, even though we have an idea um and uh And so anonymity isn't the issue and I try to tell people that the issue isn't whether you know who helped the pen

The issue is whether you have good reasons to think the content is apostolic And so what

I tell people is I look I said look the book of hebrews gives all evidence of being written by somebody Who was in the apostolic circle and got his information directly from the apostles?

In fact, the author says directly that in hebrews chapter two Um that in that in essence he's passing along apostolic teaching

And so what what hebrews does is actually sets itself up very much like the gospel of luke sets itself up If you read luke's prologue luke there is setting himself up not as an apostle

But it's what we might call an apostolic man. And what I mean by that is someone who is a student of the apostles

A partner with the apostles and a person in essence. He's holding the pen For the apostles and getting their message down on paper and the writer

Of the book of hebrews is doing something very similar so even though we don't know who it is, it doesn't necessarily challenge its canonical status because If it's if it's containing apostolic tradition, we have every reason to think it's authoritative

In fact, it's interesting. It's for this very reason that some have argued that luke in fact is the author of hebrews

That's interesting that I heard dr. James r. White, uh mentioned that he had that personal, uh preference

Yeah, I mean this isn't a new idea clement of alexandria actually was was one of the one of the earliest people to suggest

That he suggested that luke was actually paul's secretary Uh, interestingly, uh, but I mean we know that historically he was a companion of paul

So the idea was that he was what's called the emmanuensis that the scribe or the secretary for paul that that's an intriguing idea

You kind of get paul pauline like flavor but you get it in a language that's more lucan um, and some you know, others since then have made the same argument, um

About lucan authorship and I I think there's probably some interesting things about that I I think there's no way to know of course who wrote hebrews

But it's I think an interesting and I would say even plausible idea Now this could be a subject for a program in and of itself

But I know a uh female A bible scholar theologian.

She's not a feminist. She believes in the uh the prohibition of Against women in leadership in the church and so on and she is a biblical

She believes strongly in biblical inerrancy and so on but she has a

Theory that Priscilla wrote the book of hebrews And one of the reasons it's anonymous is because it was written by a woman and she didn't see any violation of that theory

She didn't see that theory as being a violation of any biblical mandate because The words of women are in the scriptures themselves.

What are your thoughts on something like that? Yeah, that's a very interesting idea. That's also not a new idea

Interesting a german scholar by the name of adolf von harnack had exactly that view There's a there's a significant problem with it though And that is the uh, the author actually describes what he's doing using a male participle at numerous points in the book

And and this is the reason why most have ruled out female authorship So you I think you have good internal evidence to regard that not as written by a female um, and uh,

I think also in addition to that there's there's probably very unlikely historically that that would have been done based on what we know about first century christianity and first century judaism

But regardless of the historical circumstances, I think grammatically it's unlikely to be written by a female

Well another internal evidence, of course that hebrews was written by a woman is in the final chapter.

It says i've written to you briefly Yeah Yeah, I think you meant it wasn't written by a woman, uh, the internal evidence it wasn't

The as far going back to the apocryphal books, uh that are cited in many of the modern day documentaries

Uh that are claimed to have been a part of the new testament canon and then later removed

Like the gospel of thomas and so on uh, are we pretty certain or are men, such as yourself

I should say, uh historians and experts in the field pretty certain that those books were not even written by the the authors that They claim

I mean the forgeries basically Yeah, that's right. I mean here's a here's a stunning fact that it may be stunning for some people usually it is um, is it

You know, I tell people look there's not we only have four gospels and all the gospels we possess that that were written in the first century um

And could have been written by people who were followers of jesus and those gospels are matthew mark luke and john every other gospel

We have whether it be thomas or peter or mary or philip or the gospel truth or what have you? All these other gospels are second century or later productions

Now I can't get into fully here the dating issues and how we know how gospels dated But what's interesting about that is that that's actually the consensus of even critical scholars

Even critical scholars agree that matthew mark luke and john are all first century productions and even critical scholars agree

That all these other gospels are second century or later And that's an amazing thing when you think about it that there's a consensus on that And that alone tells you that whatever names are attached to these apocryphal gospels.

They couldn't actually be Really written by the names attached to them because they were written in the second century long after these people had died

So yes, it's called the gospel of thomas But there's no reason to think that thomas wrote it It's called the gospel of peter, but there's no reason to think that peter wrote it because these are all second century

Productions long after those men had died. And so this is actually a good good reason to to to remember again why the gospels we have

In our new testament are the ones that are the most reliable because they're the only ones that actually take us back To the first century and that the only ones that actually even have a shot of being written by someone

Uh who knew jesus and that I think is a critical fact We have lou in sharpsburg, georgia

Who asks which version of the bible do you consider more accurate for personal bible study?

So i'm assuming they're asking about an english translation when they use the term version, right? i'm just going to assume that in the question, um, and this is a very

Common question which english translations do I? Uh, you know prefer, uh, let me just begin by saying

I think there's many good english translations out there um And uh that I don't think there's one.

I can't bat on with some sort of declaration that it's the only one worth reading Um, it depends on your intent

You know if you're looking to do very very careful bible study and you don't know the original languages Of course, it's well known that the nasb is a very

Sort of technically precise translation that goes more for the wooden Uh form of things, um, if you're looking for, you know, smoother

Easier reading that's it's that's not so difficult. Like the nasb would be The 1984 niv

I think is a very good translation. I'm not a fan at all the new new niv I think that goes without saying but actually the 1984 niv was was was good

And I used it myself for many years and liked it now You have to know what you're getting when you get an english translation like that the dynamic equivalent

Methodology is different than what the nasb is using So but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other just depends on what you're trying to do

The one I use now is the esv which I think is really useful and helpful It's kind of a middle ground between the nasb and the and the niv

Uh, but but when all the dust settles what we tell people here at the seminary is that look English translations, there's many good ones.

Some are better than others Uh, but the only way you're going to be able to adjudicate that is if you learn the original languages

So we're very keen to make sure our students know greek and hebrew so they can read the bible And the original words it was written in Well, uh since the nasb sponsored my program.

I have actually developed an nasb only theological position on the For pragmatic reasons

But I actually also use it I must admit but uh We heard your ad at the break there.

I think it was james white actually. Yes. It was nasb. Uh, yeah, that's right and uh, sorry, louie, you don't have a book, uh on the

The canon by dr. Kruger to give you we already ran out of them, but maybe next time lo and thank you for the great question

I really want to make sure we we have about eight minutes left And before we go to any more audience questions,

I want to make sure that you Really, uh leave our audience with the main things that you want etched in their hearts and minds regarding this topic before the program is over Yeah, well,

I think if uh, someone reads my book can revisit it and certainly I would encourage them to do so if they have the opportunity

Uh, they'll get the essence of my message Which is not a new message or one that i've come up with and that is that there

There is a reason you can be certain Uh, there's a reason that you can be confident that the books that we have in our bibles are the ones that god intended

Um, you may not have every historical question answered. You may not get every intellectual itch scratched But on the big picture level

Christians are not flying blind Uh when we when we regard these 27 books as canonical

In fact, the more you look into it, the more you're going to realize that. Oh, I see now Why matthew mark luke and john for example are in the canon and not thomas or peter or mary?

um, and I think that the deeper you dig actually the more confidence you're going to have and the more assurance you're going to have regarding the the the the validity of these 27 books and so If my book has the impact of giving people that level of encouragement reassurance that then

I will feel like the uh, That the the project was worth it Now who would you say that this book is intended for is it primarily intended for a seminary student or pastor?

Or do you think the average lay christian and I hate that term by the way, but Just so people understand what i'm saying the average person in the pew uh is that you think that this is uh,

At a written at a level for them to embrace and understand Well, I I think it's it's going to be a thick book to read

Um, and I don't mean just in terms of the number of pages. I mean, it's it's not you know, easygoing Uh, but I think any any uh person who's a believer who's interested in learning more and eager to put their mind to it

I think can benefit from this book. You don't have to be a seminary student You don't have to have a phd to be to be uh benefiting from it

But at the same time I don't want to give the impression that I wrote it for a introductory level Or that I wrote it, uh purely as a basic introduction to canon.

It's not it's a it's got complex dimensions to it But I didn't want to use that as a reason to scare people off I would encourage those who interested in the subject to read it and get as much out of it as they can

Now, let me also just mention though that I have a website that is designed to take what i've written in books like this

And put it at a more popular level And so my website's called cannon fodder uh

And so you don't it's it's c -a -n -o -n not not two ends, but one right, uh,

And and thus people will miss the pun but cannon fodder It's just michaeljkruger .com and and I do a lot on canon and text criticism there that people might find more accessible

We do have an anonymous listener that who says that sometimes Apologists make me feel like a second class christian

Because I do not know hebrew and greek How important is it for the average christian to learn the original languages of the bible?

Uh, yeah, I don't think the uh, the average christian in the pew needs to stress out over not knowing hebrew and greek

Um, I think we have excellent english translations. I think the average christian can rest in that and be reassured in that They they they ought to be busy learning their english bibles truthfully as much as they can not worry about knowing greek and hebrew

Um, you know as far as the apologetic apologists making christians feel like second -class citizens

I sure hope that that anybody out there defending the faith isn't isn't trying to do that because on the contrary

Most apologists I think are trying to encourage christians not discourage them Right. Um, and uh,

I think what that person might be feeling is that some apologists Would just encourage the average believer that they can probably know more than they do and I think that's true

I think most people sell themselves short and are convinced they can't really learn much And then they're just going to leave it to the experts.

I would I would disagree I would say that the average believer out there probably needs to reconsider Their capability and I think they're capable of much more than they often give themselves credit for And of course if somebody is entering into the field of apologetics where they're going to be publicly

Criticizing and critiquing and dissecting other people's beliefs Then that the story really changes shouldn't it's almost their duty

I think to to learn the original languages of the bible if that's the case if they are Going into like a full -time ministry of apologetics.

Yeah, absolutely if they're if they're calling commission to have a formal teaching role That would require them to know the languages of course, then we would encourage that and that's certainly what we do here at the seminary

But but to the earlier question about sort of the average believer out there who's stressed about not knowing greek and hebrew I would say don't be stressed about it.

Just you know, uh Focus on learning the bible and the language that god gave it to you in and uh,

And pursue him faithfully faithfully from there and there are numerous Uh works out there to help people who do not have a knowledge of the original languages to wade through a lot of it

Sure so uh cj from when in hirsula, ny, new york wants to know why the

Earlier editions of the king james bible included the apocrypher. Did the church of England even when protestant view the apocrypher as part of the canon

Oh, wow, this uh You know, I may not be able to comment on on reformation era england in terms of the the old testament apocrypha

Status I may leave that to those who were up to speed on that more. Um, so i'm not sure I can Really chime in on that question as far as 16th century england

Um, I I I simply would go back to my earlier point that at the more critical level We want to ask the question not that what did 16th century england read?

But what did jesus read and what did the first century jews read? And I think it's it's very clear historically that it wasn't the uh, roman catholic apocrypha at least as scripture

And uh, I do get questions from time to time or fair, uh from listeners

Who are interested in going to seminary? Uh, i'd like you to just take a couple of minutes to describe a reformed theological seminary in charlotte, north carolina and Let our listeners know how they can go about uh visiting you applying and so on.

Yeah. Well, thank you for that opportunity We'd love to have Prospective students come and pay us a visit. You can go online to rts

Dot edu forward slash charlotte and learn all about our campus Rts is an institution committed to reform theology, which

I think is obvious from the title Reform theological seminary most aptly embodied in the westminster confession of faith

Uh, we've been around for 50 years uh, and our our main commitments are uh, the the inerrancy and authority of scripture the uh, the beauty of reformed theology and a real heart for Preaching and for the lost.

Um, one of the things that rts I think has as part of its ethos is not just a belief in truth But a passion for getting that truth out

Out to the churches and even out to the to the to the world Globally uh through missions and evangelism and so that that part of our ministry is

Always defined us as an outwardly focused commitment to reform theology. That's really concerned about the church and for people

And where are the uh, other than charlotte north carolina, where are the various locations? I know you got one in mississippi and one in orlando

Yeah, so the best way to think of rts is we have three main campuses The uh original campus was in jackson mississippi.

And of course, we still have a campus there Uh, there's the campus in of course charlotte here and then there's the campus in orlando florida

And then we have smaller campuses in dc atlanta and houston um, and so we have a

Number of different places throughout the entire united states that people can come on campus. We also have a A distance degree program that's fully accredited where people all over the world can take classes online including classes by me if they're interested

On a variety of subjects and so we encourage them to check out our website for online classes And why don't you repeat that uh website one more time?

Yeah, the simple website is just rts .edu And from there you can go to the charlotte campus to our other campuses and to our distance

Learning, uh campus where you can take classes online. So there's all kinds of options from there. So it's rts .edu

Well, dr. Krueger, it has been a delight, uh for me to interview you today, and I really hope that you can come back and address your ivp book as well as Your other book by crossway the heresy of orthodoxy and uh

And many more times in the future and in fact, I would love for you to be on for two hours at some point Thanks, chris.

It's been fun. I hope I hope to come back soon Great. Well, god bless you brother. Thank you now And I hope that nobody goes away because we do have another guest coming up richard barcelos

Uh who is going to be joining us on the air any minute now? To discuss his book better than the beginning creation in biblical perspective

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for richard barcelos Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away. We're going to be right back with richard barcelos

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Welcome back This is chris arnzen. And if you just tuned us in our guest for the second hour Is richard c barcellos?

Phd he is pastor of grace reform baptist church in palmdale, california

And he's the author of the family tree of reformed biblical theology gohernes voss and john owen their methods of and contributions to the articulation of redemptive history

And the lord's supper as a means of grace more than a more than more than a memory forthcoming from christian focused publications

And we have uh in our hands or I should say I have in my hand Uh better than the beginning creation in biblical perspective, which is our subject today

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after many years to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Richard c barcellos It's good to be back chris. Thanks for having me and as I said in the uh,

Earlier announcements, uh, dr. Bursells hasn't been on since we had a debate Uh with some representatives of new covenant theology on our program a number of years ago on the old iron sharpens iron

And unfortunately, I remember we had some audio difficulties that day. There was something wrong with the phone line of uh, some of our brethren, uh, including my dear friend, uh

Tom wells who is now retired from the pastorate But uh, it's great to have you back on the program

To discuss uh an issue that is obviously of primary focus in the world of religion even in the secular media it even comes up when uh, you have political discussions, uh when people are running for office, especially the office of president

And they are actually you'll have secular reporters And pundits and so forth bringing up the issue of whether or not a candidate believes in evolution or creation

But if you could dr Barcellos, uh, if you could let our listeners know why you wrote this book when there are a number of books on creation already in print

Well, that's a fair question, um The book actually started out as a series of sermons

Which was supposed to be I told my wife this is going to be no longer than three sermons and it ended up being 22

I said, oh wow and uh And it came about because I was trying to show our our new congregation here

Not only the importance of creation But the purpose of creation Being the glory of god and how god

Has revealed in the scriptures that he is going about To give glory or fame for himself

Uh, not only in creation, but in creation having fallen into sin and being cursed

God still gets glory through what he does in bringing that sin -cursed creation including human nature

To glory so it was a it was a series of sermons designed to show the christ -centeredness

Of god's activity on the earth and getting glory for himself through what he does in the

Skull crushing seat of the woman the lord jesus christ I didn't I didn't see many books like that most books on creation deal with you know old earth versus new earth atheism versus some sort of divine creationism um

And other related issues marriage as a create, you know creation ordinances and things like that But I think if we read the entire bible

And we think about creation And we think about new creation And we think about adam and we think about christ as the bible would have us to think about um

We're going to be more christ -centered in answering the question. How how does god go about getting glory for himself?

So that's what that's what the book attempts to do By the way, let me introduce you, uh to my co -host

Reverend buzz taylor who's in the studio with me, uh buzz if you'd like to greet, uh, dr

Richard barcelos. Well, hello, and i'm really looking forward to this subject I've been discussing some of these things with people very recently and i'm looking forward to hearing what you've got to add to the discussion

Oh great. Good to meet you And by the way, uh, since you're the second guest it's always harder to adjust uh the uh audio, uh here to suit your uh

What you're using technically to listen to the program and participate So I hope that i've adjusted things so they're not so painful to your eardrums right now.

Yeah, it's a lot better. Thank you Okay. Thank you very much and now let me uh Announce our email address again for those of you who just tuned in.

It's chris arnzen at gmail .com C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

if you have a question for dr. Richard c barcelos On creation and more specifically on his book better than the beginning creation and biblical perspective

Tell us what exactly you meant by that title um

Well better than the beginning The beginning refers to creation And the better than refers to the new creation and so if you

The subtitle is creation in biblical perspective I tried to take a whole bible biblical theological approach to the subject

So it's a it's a massive subject in that sense And I tried to give the readers and the original hearers uh kind of a macro cosmic view of The fact that what god does with the initial creation

Even though it was plunged into sin and the curse Is he takes it

To the what's called the new creation new heavens and new earth and it was always god's intention that the creation

Uh would be glorified or brought to a state where sin and the curse could not penetrate it any longer

And by the way, we do have a listener in mesa, arizona John who asks are you wearing your favorite pair of white socks today?

Ha ha ha. That's an inside joke. He said that's pastor. John giorizzo actually From mesa, arizona.

The answer to that is yes. I have black tennis shoes black black jeans and white socks on So, I guess you must be an undercover police officer

Where that came from was I was at a conference Uh leading the q a session with carl truman

And I had packed my clothes I forgot to bring enough colored socks and so on the last day

All I had was white socks. I put white socks on I had slacks A tie, you know all that and black nice black dress shoes

And so we sat up on the podium carl truman crosses his legs. And so I looked at him and I crossed my legs

And what I did my white socks And everybody laughed and Laughs That's where that came from I wasn't laughing though And we are now

Okay. Well, this is a very good question to start off from the listener questions

And by the way, pastor john, you're not getting a free copy of richard barcelos's book Not for that question

If you actually want a free copy of the book, you're going to have to get do better than that Uh, we do have another pastor pastor mark in merrick long island, new york

Who asks what is your view on the new? slash old age

Of the earth controversy. Is it important to hold a position either way and why?

Um, that's a good question. Uh in the book I don't think I argued for the

Age of the earth one way or the other Though I did argue that I believe the scriptures teach that the days of creation were what we would call normal 24 hour days and the way

I came to that conclusion was And and the book is fraught with this type of hermeneutics.

I think hermeneutics is Vitally important on this subject. How are we going to interpret the early chapters of genesis when we don't have earlier chapters in the bible

Uh to help us all we have is later chapters We're going to allow the later chapters to shed light on the earlier chapters

So when we do that like in exodus chapter 20 Uh when in the fourth commandment exodus chapter 28 through 11 moses who wrote both the accounts both in genesis and exodus seems to at least uh imply that the days of creation were normal 24 hour days

As far as the duration or the length, uh, the age of the earth. I I don't know

Uh, I side with a younger earth than than the billions and billions of years you but I don't think the scripture is real clear on that and I think what what's most important is the theological intent for For moses having the creation account in there

And it's not just to tell us that the days were 24 hours in length or the earth is billions of years old

I I think god The six days of creation isn't something

That we should view as It took god six days to create but instead god took six days to create

Is it there's there's an important distinction being made there. It didn't take god This length of time because that's all the power he had and then when he rested he was exhausted

Divine power god took that period of time to create for a reason.

I think it's for man I think the six in one cycle For man's activity on the earth is based on the six in one cycle

Of of god at creation. So I think there's an ethical there are ethical implications for the six -day creation

Namely that man is to pattern himself um after god Yeah and uh pastor or should

I say reverend buzz has a uh question for you well this I I can't believe there's a a book on creation that doesn't deal with the age of the earth but I can get over that because I recently had a conversation with an individual and uh

Maybe this is more to what you're answering His question was why would god create all these billions of people?

To send them to hell except for those that he chose, you know, not to of course, but uh, you know, uh

I think that's the thing where wouldn't it have been better not to create or to have created everything perfect In other words, we could have just created us in heaven.

He could have exactly Is this more along the lines of what you're answering?

Um In the book yes Uh, no,

I don't even think I I I I can give an answer to that But well, I i'd be interested in your answer whether the book covers it or not because uh, these are questions that people ask yeah, well if you notice in the uh

In the uh Page the first page of the book has the as the endorsements

I think it's not all of them at least two of them I identify my book as a different kind of a book on creation.

For instance, david murray says although many christians have been engaged In a life or death battle to defend the truth of creation against evolutionary attacks coming from inside and outside the church

There has been little exploration of the doctrine of creation and all its glorious height depth width and length

And then he says my book tries to do that and and joel beeky recognizes the same thing

So a lot of the questions, you know that sometimes people might ask I I didn't uh answer in this book um

And it's not because I don't have answers myself, but you know on the on the issue of why didn't god just create us glorified?

Um, you know, I suppose there's a possible world in which Could exist that god did that He didn't even do that with the angels.

By the way, he created the angels as rational creatures And a host of them chose to sin that's right

So we can learn something from that. I think that god in creating rational creatures angels and and men

Desired these rational creatures To not just be robots But to choose the best end for their

Worship and praise and that would be that would be god So I would say that god desire god designed things in such a way is that he would get rational creatures to praise him

Instead of creating us In a in an immutable state. He created us

In our parents adam and eve in a in a mutable state So that we might freely give him what is due him

By the way, we have the other answer I would give is who are you old man to question god Well, that's the one

I use Yeah we do have uh Anthony from new york apologetics.

He asks A similar question, but it's more detailed. I'm talking about a similar to the first that pastor mark americ new york asked he says

Is it at all possible and he? emphasizes the word possible

That the days in genesis creation account are periods of time not literal literal 24 hour days based on the fact that the hebrew word for day yom can indicate either

And he has a list of citations part Of the daylight hours as in genesis 1 5 all of the daylight hours as in genesis 1 5 24 hours as as in genesis 1 8 and a long time

But a finite period of time as in genesis 2 2 to 3

Yeah yeah, that's a good question because um This gets down to to uh exegetical or hermeneutical method again

When we take a word for instance this word day And if you just pulled a concordance down or looked up all its uses in the hebrew old testament you would find various uh

Various uses in various contexts. It doesn't always mean 24 hour 24 hour period it does sometimes but not all the time.

So we have to do more than just concordance We have to then say okay in all these uses

Are there any uses that That are similar to a context of of Genesis 1 or are there any uses?

That are actually referring back to genesis 1 And giving us a further explanation or exposition of Genesis 1 and I think that's what exodus chapter 20 does it ends up being

God's own commentary on god's word That's why I said hermeneutics is very important here.

So for me i'm convinced That the the period of time Referred to in genesis 1 when we talk about each separate day in and of itself

Is explained for us in exodus chapter 20 So so in a cheeky kind of way i've got i've got god on my side

On this issue because i'm allowing the word of god to expound the word of god

Looking back to the text that's under question the text that's under question is exodus chapter 20

Does any subsequent revelation make explicit what is at least implicit? In the antecedent or the prior revelation?

Yes exodus chapter 20 Does that? Now you have a section on in the book about uh creation by being

Uh a creation of the or by the triune god if you could expound on that further i'm assuming when the scriptures, uh speak of let us make man in our image and so on that you're i'm assuming you take that as a

Conversation with the trinity rather than god speaking to the angels, but perhaps i'm guessing too much here

No, you're right. I take the older More predominant view that that is at least a hint that what?

christian church Excuse me subsequently is called the doctrine of the trinity But what I do in that chapter is

I show you Uh that the scriptures teach that each person

Of the trinity the father the son and the holy spirit exerted divine power in the creation

Of the world and not only in the creation of the world but in the sustaining of all things Subsequent to their creation which we call divine providence so that creation is

By god the father son and holy spirit for the manifestation of his glory wisdom and power

As the our confession and the westminster confession also says the same thing which which language by the way is very old

It's not just made up by the westminster divines and then copied by the others In the next generation

The theologians wrote that way and I think it probably goes all the way back to the early church and the reason

I wanted to highlight this is because We often forget that if christianity is is unique.

It's unique in two things Number one the doctrine of the trinity and number two the incarnation of the son of god so that's why

I wrote a chapter on the the um creation by the triune god because I think

I'm convinced christianity is a trinitarian religion and we tend to lose sight of that even in even in the doctrine of creation

Yes, and uh, jesus christ It's an affirmation of his existence prior to the incarnation from eternity past along with the father and the spirit and It's interesting that the oneness pentecostals who?

Claim, uh to believe in the deity of jesus christ. They they do they reject the notion that he has existed uh in eternity past however, which

Makes it a serious heresy among other among other reasons Right You know, he got in trouble when he said before abraham

Was I am right? And if you allow the bible to help you understand what that assertion implies

You'll you'll conclude that the exodus 314 I am Is the claim that jesus is making there

I exist. I am basically from eternity and uh when you said that Uh, really the age of the earth may not be a hill to die over Uh, there are other there are other things that come about or rise to the surface during the

Uh age of the earth debate amongst christians and those who begin to embrace theistic evolution uh

First of all, do you think that theistic evolution? is something That uh to borrow a phrase from hank anagraph is within the pale of orthodoxy

Or is it something that certainly should be deemed heretical? and obviously, uh i'm sure you would agree that Whichever way you answer that question that to deny that adam and eve were created exactly as they

As the account is given in genesis and to say that they they have evolved from uh hominids and so on non -human uh

Animals and so on that would be heretical, but if you could comment on that Yeah, you know a couple years ago.

Somebody interviewed me on this and as they were introducing me They said I was an expert on this issue and the first thing

I said After I gave my greetings was I want to go on record to say i'm not an expert on this issue

Okay, i'm a pastor And I preach to people and every once in a while somebody might

Encourage me to put that in print and so I put something in print and I send it out to a few Close friends of mine see what they think

If I get the thumbs up, then i'll Complete it and i'll send it out to potential endorsers if I get the thumbs up Then I know

I should print the book, but it doesn't make me an expert on this this kind of stuff I I don't think that I could say right now in my thinking that if somebody holds to some

Form of theistic evolution they're necessarily holding to a damning heresy

I think most most true believers have Enough orthodox intuitions in them not to take even what

I would say would be aberrant teaching To its logical conclusion so as to undo their profession of faith in every single instance where a person

Might believe that thing That's my current take on that. I I don't Appreciate or like at all some of the directions

Those folks go and some of the implications they draw out and and you know, they're being consistent with some of the

I think faulty premises that they're adhering to And I wish they wouldn't do that, but they do it, but i'm not today ready to damn everybody that holds some

Form of theistic evolution i'd have to look at their their view and ask them what they believe about this that and the other and And all kinds of things but i'm not going to do that what do you mean by the sun tilted focus of creation and uh, it's uh,

Seems to be a play on words there with the s .o .n. But if you could uh Explain that a little deeper.

Yeah, that that's a that's a that's a chapter that got some questions asked

Uh by some friends of mine when they first read it um Well the sun tilted

Let me see what chapter that did I write that I wrote He read it right from your book, yes

Well, that's from the the third chapter chapter three the sun tilted focus of creation creation for the son of god if you if you if you notice in colossians 1 16, this is where the text that I Uh seek to explain in this chapter and I draw some implications paul is speaking about the son of the father

And he says in verse 16 for by him That is the son of of the father all things were created both in the heavens

And on earth visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things that have been created through him and then here's the phrase and For him

For the son So that's why I get the sun tilted focus of creation because we we have to we have to put into our

System of of of doctrine here that text and makes sense of it

The sun is god the creator we know from that text and other texts john one and And elsewhere, but the creation is also for the son it has um some purpose that terminates upon The the son and the glory that the son will bring to the father

Through his ultimately his work as mediator So that's what I do in that that chapter.

I try to try to explain that and it's not just something I came up Came about by myself. I mean there's a lot of quotations from other writers in there for instance

Here's what richard daniels who did a his phd on john owens christology He says it is difficult to conceive a more christocentric view of the purpose of god and creation than this

Which subjects the creation? And history of the universe to the manifestation of the glory of god in its renovation by the sun

Hmm So it's tilted toward the sun And I argue from various I think primarily pauline texts

That we can see that and not only in colossians 1 16, but what even when adam, uh, paul calls adam

A type of him who was to come Adam was a type of christ not in his fallen state

But in his pre -fallen state So there's a sun -tiltedness even in adam's vocation as Type of him who was to come and then in ephesians 5 that very mysterious text right at the end of ephesians chapter 5

Where he says he's talking about christ and the church he goes back He he uses a text from genesis that predates the fall into sin as far as as far as Marriage goes

So that somehow some way even adam and eve As the first married couple were prefiguring christ and the church and you can if you're interested in this john fesco's book

Which was a large very influential in my thinking john fesco's book last things first He deals with that And he calls, uh,

I think he even uses the language eve was a type of the church or something like that And that's in the older writers too, but that's pre -fall.

So god Sets the world up for his son from the beginning And we have to go to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own

Uh, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

And by the way, I do want to let Uh mark From merrick long island new york and anthony from newyorkapologetics .com

I want to let you know you're both receiving free copies Of the book better than the beginning creation in biblical perspective by richard c barcelos compliments of reform baptist academic press

By the way, i'd like to give a plug to their website. It's rbap .net

Rbap rb an abbreviation for reform reform baptist .net rbap .net

Hopefully i'll be remembering to announce that a few more times before the program is over and uh

So give us an email, uh, and we do have a couple more books to give away And our and we do have a couple of listeners already, uh on hold here.

So be patient with me As I uh try to get to your questions as soon as I can

That's chris arnson at gmail .com Chris arn z e n at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're gonna be right back with Dr. Richard c barcelos And our discussion of better than the beginning creation in biblical perspective

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Welcome back. This is chris arndt And if you just tuned us in for the last half hour and the half hour to follow

Our guest is richard c barcellos And we are discussing dr. Barcellos's book better than the beginning creation and biblical perspective

Our email address if you have a question of your own is chris arndt at gmail .com

Chris arndt at gmail .com, but you have a listener lou in sharpsburg, georgia who asks

Do you think many popular bible teachers? Capitulate to an old earth because of fear of men and that they don't

Uh, they don't want to be seen as unintellectual Aren't they getting this view primarily from unbelieving scientists?

To whom the gospel is foolishness You have a uh answer for that rich Now, did he say do you think it's possible?

No, he just said do you think that many popular bible teachers? Uh capitulate to an old earth

I'm assuming that's inherent in the questions. He's saying do you think rather than are you certain but yeah well,

I I can't be certain, um for a couple reasons one is I I uh,

I am comprised of finite human nature Ha ha ha ha So I am not infinite in my knowledge, uh, neither have

I asked every single person that holds to uh, uh an older earth view

Why they did that or and even if I did I don't think I could read their motives, but yeah, it's possible

Do popular bible teachers and even authors capitulate to the pressures?

around them and in depth articulating views that they That they uh

Articulating the views that they do based on you know The pressures of people around them. Yeah that happens unfortunately, but I you know, how many do it?

I don't know. Is it possible that most of them that believe that are capitulating and just Knuckling under and don't want to be viewed as old fundies.

Yeah. Yeah, but I really don't know I think it's possible though and I think it's sad if it if and when that happens

I guess one of the reasons that that question may have been raised is that i've seen young earth creationists who are uh, even scientifically knowledgeable say that the only reason that some christian would

Lean toward or fully embrace an old earth It has some sort of reason other than Science because there's nothing scientific that proves

An old earth that's what they would say and therefore there's got to be another reason why they are favoring the opinions of secular scientists, but Yeah, you know, i'm pretty sure that uh, r .c.

spole has changed his view over the years on this issue And it would be hard for me to conclude therefore r .c's

older view Namely that the earth was old Way older than he apparently believes now was based on r .c's

capitulation To the academic pressures around him. I just don't see r .c's doing that.

It may have just been uh him accepting Uh, you know at face value that they were right or something of that nature because he's not a scientist

Yeah, I don't know. Uh, I saw recently uh on the wretched television program, uh

Todd friel who's been my guest a couple of times on this program Uh, he was airing a sermon or part of a sermon by.

Dr. John mccarthur where mccarthur was Criticizing the green bible and basically the so -called green christian movement or environmentalist christian movement

That would uh capitulate to secular uh people involved in the green movement uh, and Basically put in a wrong set of priorities

The stewardship that we are to have over the planet whereas uh, pastor mccarthur was basically setting forth that We are to subdue the earth.

The earth was given to man as a gift for us to use its resources to Really and and john, uh, dr mccarthur went as far as saying that this is a disposable earth

That were to use it Uh, and basically, uh suck it dry of of its resources

Uh, where do you fall in that whole debate on? on uh the level of stewardship that we are to have over the earth,

I mean I even know of evangelicals who have Brought into the whole globe global warming hysteria and so on.

So if you could just comment on that What if I said no? Well here i'm over here kind of smiling um in my 74 or 5 degree blue sky sunshine weather

Not because of the weather but because of a lot of these things, you know, they're important I guess

They are our horizontal level we shouldn't abuse the creation um Um, we need to respect god god's creatures and have them in their proper place.

Don't exalt them above uh Any level they ought to be exalted like in california they've exalted these little smelty little fish above a creature above image bears above humans because Uh all the while saving these fish were you know aborting babies

It just doesn't make sense save fish and abort babies. That doesn't make sense in a biblical world to you

Okay, so there you have the exaltation of fish by the way, it affects not just Uh, it doesn't doesn't really save that many fish the way they do the water in northern california and it affects farmers

And when it affects farmers it affects the price of food on your right at the store, you know

Uh, I hope hope you guys aren't too Urban that you you realize that where your food comes from, you know farmers

We're not like the lady in the la news la times one time. She said, uh, why do I need farmers?

I have save mark So so that that's an issue in california water politics, it's a really hot potato

They're saving these fish and you know my argument that is I don't want to abuse the fish But if I have to take a make a choice between fish and humans i'll pick pick pick humans

Every single time because we're unique creatures creating the image of god And fish aren't but one of the things

I was kind of smiling about was the fact that a lot of these discussions They're good discussions. They're necessary in certain contexts but the subtitle of the book is creation in biblical perspective

When we put creation in its proper biblical context We're going to talk about jesus christ a lot a lot of these discussions there's no christ in them

There there's no christ bringing many sons to glory. You know, if you think about the sufferings and glory of of the mediator, what does it mean that he suffered and why

Well, he was punished for our sins What does it mean that he entered into glory?

But that he was raised from the dead and existed in In glorified human nature for about 50 days on the earth and then he was exalted in heaven

He's going to come back again And he's going to bring many sons to glory The purpose of the earth was that sons sinless sons of god would be brought to a glorified state of a permanent

A state of permanent existence in in communion with god And these sinless sons of god were to be all over the face of the earth.

That's the genesis 128 mandate is for sinless adam to to uh

To procreate and to spread the culture of the of the garden all throughout the earth.

Of course, he failed to do that Which that's why there's a last adam because the last adam takes

His seed where the first adam failed to take his seed that is to glory to glory to to the to the eternal state

So so that the end Is actually the beginning brought to glory that's why

The end is better than the beginning. Yes But the end is nothing other than what the beginning was intended to arrive at but failed to By the first steward first human steward

Adam who is a sinless son of god who represented others? And what we need is not um

Figure out the length of the earth the the duration of the earth. What we need is we need a we need another adam

That's what we need. We need another adam a sinless son of god who represents others and who takes them to glory

That's that's what we have in christ. So that's why some of the endorsers said this is not a typical book on creation

Because I tried to keep Try to keep the discussion within a biblical theological redemptive historical context

Which is the context of the canonical books of the old new testament, right? To give a more of a holistic look at this issue than just a atomizing and extracting biblical truths out out out of their broader redemptive historical context

Because when you do that you get off into all kinds of issues and and you lose the gospel The reason why

I have a bible by the way is because there's a gospel Yeah, we the bible exists because sin exists and god has a plan of redemption

And god's published that plan of redemption in the scriptures of the old new testament and whenever we discuss creation and get away from from from uh from the incarnation

The sufferings and glory of of the son of god we've taken the biblical doctrine out of its natural habitat

Amen, and well to bring uh christ back into the previous comment. I made about john macarthur's sermon however, the uh the fact that uh christ himself

Had a very clear ministry to the poor and unfortunate people of the world and the uh, the uh, those involved in the green movement seem to be more concerned over the the creation

Than the poor individuals who are the first to suffer greatly whenever Forests are overly protected and that kind of a thing.

That's that's one of the main reasons I I'd bring that up because that is You never hear christ speaking about uh protecting trees at the expense of human lives

Yeah, uh, what do you mean by the revolutionary function of creation the revolutionary

I'm sorry the revelatory I guess that that's uh coming from romans one

I'm assuming but uh, yes the revelatory function of creation creation tells of his glory

That's psalm 19 the first 66 verses And then creation testifies of his existence

That's the romans one Uh recently, I heard that r .c. Sproul never debates atheists

Because uh, he knows that what they claim that they deny they actually believe and that's what

I try to prove in there that There's all kinds of evidence for god. It's not the problem is not the lack of evidence.

The problem is our sinful hearts Yeah, that would be the presuppositional approach to apologetics uh, so the uh, so you believe that those

Who are rejecting? god Are not truly in their heart of hearts

Atheists that that because of what we see in romans one the creation itself, even though that creation doesn't specifically

And clearly reveal the gospel. It does reveal an existence of god. Is that is that what you're where you're coming from?

Yeah, paul paul says in romans one that that uh The unbeliever suppresses the truth

Unrighteously If he suppresses the truth the implication is He knows that which he is suppressing now how conscious he is at that to what degree?

You know that that's for god to know and I don't know all I know is that what scripture said that unbelievers

Have an innate knowledge of god They can also acquire from the creation that they see they can acquire

Knowledge of god that way as well. It's damning knowledge. It doesn't save them Nobody's ever saved by general revelation, but it is revelation.

That's general that is it reaches to every all creatures So everybody knows that he is that he's powerful paul argues that as well that everybody knows that god is that he's powerful

That there's ethical absolutes and there's a day of reckoning. That's all romans one there And what is the significance

Uh that you write about in the initial act of creation creation out of nothing ex nilo as it's phrased

I wrote a chapter on that Yeah, i'll read your book it's pretty good

Well, I uh, just heard a quote recently by uh, uh, somebody was quoting martin luther that uh

And i'm paraphrasing it but since god creates out of nothing we must become nothing before Uh god can use us and we can reach the ends of ourselves and so on and rely totally on him but uh the uh you also uh

Discuss the image -bearing apex of creation creation in the image of god Yeah, that's probably that's a very important two chapters.

I think on on on that I describe what it means to be creative in god's image

And then um the second chapter on it deals with Not only adam's identity as the image of god

But adam's vocation or adam's unique calling and that's where I cover a very important doctrine

That has been called by christian theologians the covenant of works Where adam was a sinless son of god who represented others?

And um In that covenant That it's actually called a covenant in subsequent revelation in in hosea

That covenant implies reward for adam's obedience but adam sinned paul says all that sinned and fall short of the glory of god

The first sinner among men was adam So adam fell short of something.

What did he fall short of he fell short of the glory of god What does the glory of god mean? Does it mean the intrinsic eternal infinite?

unchangeable infallible Immutable glory outshining brilliance of divinity.

Is that what he fell short of did he fall short of um divine being Or did he fall short of a state of existence

And I take john owens this view as well others do he fell short of a state of existence called glory

This is important because when the mediator comes on the scene the incarnate son of god He is said to have suffered and then entered into his glory and then

What we're told in hebrews that god through the sun is bringing many sons To glory,

I think that's a state of glorify of human Of human nature in a state of existence.

That's a permanent state of existence It's an infallible state of existence It's uh, it's a state of existence that is immutable unchangeable and made so by virtue of the obedience of christ for us adam

Sinned and fell short of the glory of god christ did not sin does not fall short of the glory of god adam plunged

The entire human race that he represented into sin and guilt christ Who represented his people did not sin entered into glory and will bring many sons to glory and not only that but paul says that we're going to share in the glory of our lord jesus christ

I think that means in the glory of uh of uh glorified human nature and john owen by the way takes that view as well, but So that romans 3 23 hebrews 2 10 second thessalonians

What is it 3 14 or something like that? And there's another text roman 5

Yes roman 5 uh One and two charles. I think I might have a charles hodge quote in there

Maybe not but listen to romans 5 1 or 2 because I think this is important for For our discussion through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand

And we exult in hope

Confident expectation of something in the future based on what god has told us we exult in hope of the glory of god the believers exult

In this confident expectation that they're going to share The glory of god.

What does that mean? I think it means a state of existence in human nature in a permanent state

That to which adam fell short christ takes us to We have uh an anonymous listener in boiling springs, pennsylvania

Who wants to know? If this planet That we live on will have any part in our eternity or is it just the humans?

On it that are saved that will be sharing heaven with us I guess the whole question about the new heavens and the new earth.

Yeah, I I take the view that Just as uh, our human nature gets renovated

And it's still us Body and soul in the eternal state

So the creation is waiting for the same type of renovation namely uh

It it gets regenerated in the regeneration jesus called it so this creation gets purged of the effects of the curse and and um

It it is exalted into a permanent state of existence where sin And the curse cannot penetrate it anymore either in Uh, well because there's there's no sinners there for that to happen.

So And by the way listener, uh, if you give me your full address you also won a free copy of the book

Better than the beginning by dr Richard c barcellos not sure why you remain anonymous for that question since it was fairly fairly harmless, but we look forward to getting all of your information and I will keep your

Anonymity intact so you don't have to worry about me announcing your name on the air And I really want to make sure because we only have about three minutes left.

I want to make sure you dr barcellos Leave our listeners with what you primarily want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave the program in regard to this subject today

Yes, I would say this that in the incarnation The second person of the trinity the son of god assumes human nature in order to repair it

And Along with that to repair the entire creation and bring human nature

And creation to a glorious state of existence called the new heavens and the new earth

So that I would want my listeners to realize that the reason why I have a bible Is because god has a plan of renovation and it's through the person and work of our

Our lord jesus christ faith in him gains you all of that Not because faith is virtuous or faith is meritorious, but because faith is an open hand that receives the mercy of god in christ

So I would want them to realize that god so loved the world that he gave Out of his love for that which he had created and the well -being he desired forth.

He gave his son to us for us and for our salvation And uh, so i'm assuming there, uh that you believe

That in john 3 16 that god so loving the world would include his creation

Uh, not as some uh reformed people take that text As just the elect from out of every nation, but you would have a you would have an application

That would be he loved the world meaning his creation Yeah, I go back i've gone back and forth on that Text before but you didn't uh asked me to talk about that text and so I can't give any comments about it

Well, that's quite all right And uh, I look forward to having you back brother and I know that uh, your books not to talk about john 3 16, though Well, I know that your books can be ordered through Rbap .net

correct Yes, they're available on amazon and other places as well You'll probably get a better price at our website though That's rbap for reform baptist

Uh, what's the exact it's the reform baptist academic press Yeah reform baptist academic press rbap .net

And uh, dr. Richard barcellos, uh, we would love to have you back in the very near future on the program to discuss one of your other books one of these days

I would like to actually have both sides of the Impassibility debate represented to to have an interesting conversation on that But uh, it's a joy to have you back after many years and look forward to your return

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I want to thank my co -host reverend buzz taylor for being on the program and thank you

And I want to thank everybody for listening and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ