March 22, 2016 Show with Scott Christensen on “What About Free Will?” PLUS Ken Gentry on “As It Is Written: The Genesis Account–Literal or Literary?”

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth

Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 22nd day of March 2016 and I'm very delighted to have for the very first time ever on iron sharpens iron a

Guest by the name of pastor Scott Christensen. He is pastor of Summit Lake Community Church in Mancos, Colorado And for the first hour we have him on the program to discuss.

What about free will? Reconciling our choices with God's sovereignty the second hour.

We will feature after a very long absence Dr. Kenneth Gentry He is pastor of Living Hope Presbyterian Church of Greer, South Carolina and author of a number of books

And he's going to be discussing his latest book as it is written the Genesis account literal or literary and If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for either of our guests our email address is

Chris Arntz and at gmail .com That's ch r is a r n z n at gmail .com

and a few Live in the United States, please give us your first name in your city and state and please give us the your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and If you prefer to remain anonymous, you may do so But please try to only remain anonymous if it's about a personal private matter that you're asking a question about Perhaps you disagree with your own church's theology or something like that But please otherwise give us at least your first name in your city and state

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron pastor

Scott Christensen Hello good to be with you.

Good to have you on the program and let me introduce you to my co -host today The Reverend buzz

Taylor and hello Good to meet you Pleasure to be here.

Yeah before we go into the subject at hand. What about free will reconciling our choices with God's sovereignty?

Why don't you tell our listeners something about summit summit Lake Community Church in Mancos, Colorado? Well, we are this is a very small church.

We live in a rural area of Southwest Colorado between the Rocky Mountains and the deserts of Arizona and Utah And a very beautiful place we've been here for 12 years

It's a small congregation, but God has really blessed our ministry here Well, just in case

I forget to do it later the website for that church is summit Lake Church dot o -r -g

Summit Lake Church dot o -r -g and we hope that any of you who are visiting, Colorado or who already live there will visit that congregation and There have been many books as you know,

Pastor Scott written on the subject of free will from both a theologically reformed or Calvinistic point of view and an

Arminian view point of view or just Non -calvinist or anti -calvinist point of view because there are many of those

Outside of the pale of the reformed faith that prefer not to use the term

Arminian to describe themselves But why did you feel a need to write your book on free will?

well This is a bit an issue that I have wrestled with for many years some probably 30 years ago as a young believer a friend of mine introduced me to the whole doctrines of grace and the

Calvinistic view of election and predestination and whatnot And I wrestled with that as many people do and I remember one day

Sitting in my car in a college parking lot reading

Romans 9 And and it hit me like a ton of bricks that God's election is absolutely certain his sovereignty is meticulous and absolute in regards to all things

But I still wrestled with this whole notion. Where does that leave? any sense of freedom or Responsibility as far as our choices are concerned.

So I wrestled with this whole question of free will for quite some time before I began to read guys like Jonathan Edwards and of course

Calvin and Luther and And kind of begun to articulate what

I believe is a more biblical view on these matters now if you could define what you mean by free will because a lot of the

Battle or argument or debate that we have as Reformed Christians or sovereign grace believers with those who do who reject our teachings a lot of it has to come to a misunderstanding of what we mean by The fact that man does not have a free will or that he has a free will with restrictions and so on Some people, you know try to give attribute a caricature of a robot that we believe

God has just merely created robots and The men do not that we they would say that we do not believe men actually make choices

That are voluntary and things of that nature if you could define free will yeah,

I think it's important to distinguish between the standard Arminian view versus what

Calvinists would say about this and so The Arminian view is is largely known today as libertarianism and these this is a term that's often used in philosophical circles even among secular non -believers

But in either case Libertarian the libertarian notion of free will teaches two basic ideas

The first is that our choices cannot be determined in any way in other words there cannot be any sufficient causes for the choices that we make this would include you know a temporal

Influences, you know in the earthly realm if you will and of course that also includes

God so God cannot in any way determine choices From the Arminian perspective

Secondly Arminians or the libertarians would teach that you can always make a choice that is contrary

To the choice that you did make in other words you could you could choose good but you could have equally have chosen bad or evil and And that there's no sufficient reasons for why you would choose one or the other

That is basically what libertarians are Arminians at least thinking Arminians How they would articulate free will in a real simple fashion now the position that I hold to is known as compatibilism and Compatibilism was first really articulated by Jonathan Edwards and his magisterial work called the freedom of the will and what

Edwards argued is that people always Make choices in accordance to their strongest desires or the strongest motives that they have that You know that that result in particular choices and that and that in no way are those choices

Incompatible with them being determined so that for example in the compatibilistic view

God can wholly determine our choices and Yet we simultaneously

Determine those choices as well based upon the determining factors that most influence us

And create the strongest motive and we always act upon the strongest motive So that our freedom is tied to the voluntary nature of our choices

And we always act in accordance with the most powerful motive That would be a basic Definition of free will from a

Calvinistic or compatibilist perspective and of course you get into deeper issues from there yeah man according to a compatible of compatibilist view or even a

Calvinist or Sovereign Grace believing Reformed view would be that man voluntarily makes decisions according to his nature and what his nature would

Give him the proclivity to desire or want Am I right on that yes correct so for example for the unbeliever when it comes to spiritual and moral choices

We are bound by our nature, and that's why many Calvinists would say well.

We don't really have free will I Sometimes think that can be misconstrued

Because there's a sense in which we were both free and in bondage at the same time right we are always free to choose

What most influences us? But the question is what is it that most influences us right so from a spiritual or moral perspective because we are

Bound to our sin nature This is the whole doctrine of depravity You know our choices are always corrupted our spiritual and moral choices are corrupted as unbelievers as long as we remain in an

Unregenerated state we would never have a desire for truly spiritual or moral choices in other words choices

In the way that I believe scripture defines it as choices that are truly God glorified

It's impossible for an unbeliever an unregenerate person To exercise choices that are truly

God glorified So that's why in order for a person to freely make such choices they have to be regenerated so the scripture teaches that that That our hearts must be changed.

They must be transformed our minds must be opened up to truth that We could not have ascertained

Just like it just like what occurred with Lydia the seller of purple the Lord had to open up her heart so that she would

Understand the things that were being said I'm not understanding is if what the difference or if there's a difference between what you said was the

Calvinistic and Edwards view One is bound by nature the others just strongest motive is there

I mean well you say the nature obviously is the strongest motive Edwards was a Calvinist, but yeah, but it does bring up an interesting point

You could answer his question first Scott because I do have a question about that regarding Edwards Well you mentioned that Edwards taught that we make our choices by the strongest motive, and then of course the the

The next view you mentioned was that we're bound by our nature What our nature constitute our strongest motive?

Yes, our nature would always Be the base root of the types of motives that are produced

And so if we are in an unregenerate state Then our sin nature has bound us

To only sinful kinds of choices or sinful kinds of motives so that The only kinds of motives that can be produced in an unregenerate state are those which would not truly glorify

God in any kind of way Because we're bound to our sin nature, so yes

Edwards affirmed as strong as anyone a powerful view of the depravity of man much as Edwards and or excuse me as Calvin and Luther did

And but he was really the first to articulate I think free will in a more

In a more complex more nuanced way perhaps we should say that even

Calvin and And yeah the the verse that I always like to point my

Arminian or free will believing friends or libertarian free will believing friends is

Romans 8 8 Those who are in the flesh Cannot please

God and I asked them is believing in Christ in a saving way

Is that pleasing to God and if they will typically obviously say yes, of course it is and I will say well

How can they do that when they are a dead sinner before regeneration? Yes, that's that's a very important passage of Scripture because you notice that depending on their translation

That you read it says The mind that is flesh that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God forbidden

It's not subject itself to the law of God For it is not even able to do so notice that the word does not is really another way of saying is unwilling

So the person who is set on the flesh whose mind is consumed by their sinful nature

They're unwilling to set subject themselves to the law of God They cannot please

God Which is simply another way of saying they cannot make God -glorifying choices And not only that but they're unable to do so.

Yes, so they're both unwilling and unable They they are prisoners of their own sin nature and until God regenerates them

No, I'm able to make such God -glorifying choices that that would please him as Paul says there

Now I don't want to I don't want to derail the theme, but I had heard from some reformed folks

In the past even from a prominent guest on my show at one point

And I don't want to name him since he's not here to better articulate himself, but I've heard that There is an argument from some reformed folk that Jonathan Edwards Departed from Calvin's view on the nature of man's will would you agree with that assessment or disagree or How would you explain that even that that question even existing?

Yeah, I I am NOT personally familiar with with that kind of an argument

I've not seen that articulated anywhere I Believe you know some scholars believe that Both Luther and Calvin You know pretty much articulated the later view of Augustine as you as anyone who studied

Augustine knows that he initially Endorsed a view of free will that was similar to Libertarianism even though he held to a strong view of God's sovereignty

I think he was somewhat inconsistent in that but later changed his views later on but as far as Edwards departing from Calvin's view of Human depravity.

I'm not I'm not aware of those arguments I I'm not by any means a

Calvin or Edwards scholar My attention has been focused mainly on Edwards view

You know the free will yeah, and I didn't mean to the to insinuate that there are folks saying that he departed from the

Doctrine of total depravity, but but some has he had some kind of a nuanced view according to these

Individuals anyway, he had some kind of a nuanced view of the freedom of man's will that they believed

Departed from the historic reform sense of it. But anyway The we do have a listener and I think it's a good way to To enter a good time to introduce this question because it's at a heart of a lot of what we're discussing

Mike in Birmingham, Alabama He asked do you believe Adam had a freedom of will?

Significantly different from all his posterity who followed by natural generation

How does his pre full freedom relate to those born again and given a new heart how about Those in glory.

So those are really three questions. And if you forget any of them, I'll remind you of them Yeah You know there there's a lot of I Shall I say some difficulty in understanding the nature of Adams freedom?

prior to the fall And And some would suggest that he had libertarian kind of free will

Prior to the fall. I believe that is not true because I believe The notion of libertarian free will is is internally inconsistent

In any case and does not make sense of scripture or our experience

I Believe that Adam had the capacity to sin

And that God created him in such a state And that once he did sin, then of course

You know a said nature was imputed To Adam and his posterity such that he became, you know subsequently bound to his said nature

Augustine talked about four states of You know man's freedom and and I talked about that in the book you can get some of these terms a little bit

Confused because of some of the Latin terminology that is used but basically, you know, Adam had a kind of freedom

In the sense that he was able not to sit But then once he fell into sin that he was able not to sit

You know or not able not to sit Then once a person becomes regenerated

They are able not to sin once again But only when we reach

Glorification are we finally never able to sin again? So there's kind of four states if you will of one's will

That you know starts from Adam and then the post fall Adam then regenerate non -glorified believers and Then finally regenerate glorified believers and I described, you know the that that sort of train of thought

You know in the last few chapters of my book. Is that what Boston around isn't it?

Yes the four state of man Human, I forget what the name of his Thomas Boston.

Yes wrote a book called the four Thought it sounded familiar Exactly, but yeah,

I believe it's published by the banner of truth Well, you want to go into some more detail about those four

Stages While you're looking it up Let me repeat our email address for our listeners if they care to join us on the air with their own question.

And by the way Mike you are winning or you have won I should say a free copy of What about free will reconciling our choices with God's sovereignty

By Scott Christensen with a Ford by DA Carson and that's compliments of P &R publishing

Also known as Presbyterian and reform publishing and Their website is

PRP books .com PRP books .com, but you can also Get all the books that we address on iron sharpens iron

Through Cumberland Valley Bible book services in Carlisle, Pennsylvania CV BBS calm

CV for Cumberland Valley BB for Bible book s for service calm CV BBS calm

I just want to read a couple of endorsements for this book because they're very powerful and They have been written by two men that I've had on my program in the past First from John MacArthur who

I'm sure is no stranger to the iron sharpens iron audience He says of this book a clear intelligent immensely helpful overview of one of the most confusing conundrums in all of theology

Scott Christensen doesn't sidestep the hard questions. The answers he gives are thoughtful biblical satisfying and refreshingly

Coherent lay readers and seasoned theologians alike will treasure this work and also

Michael Horton Of the white horse in radio program. He's also an author and professor at Westminster Seminary in,

California He writes careful in description and argument Eminently readable most important of all this book breathes a spirit of wonder and gratitude

Before the face of a God who is not only all -powerful But good and that was

Michael Horton both very powerful endorsements, but if you could Scott go through those four

Yes Theologians have borrowed some

Latin phrases from Augustine that talk about This for state of man's freedom or Adam's freedom and So when you look at Adam in his pre -fall state

He had two conditions they say the first comes from a phrase called posse peccare, which means able to sin and Posse non peccare, which means able not to sin

You know, so in other words Adam and Eve had the capacity to act with God pleasing righteousness

When they chose to do so nonetheless, they retained the potential to sin and of course they did succumb to sin

Now when they experienced this post fall state They had what is called

Non posse non peccare. In other words not able not to sin

In other words every fallen creature every unregenerate Human being is in this state not able not to sin

They are going to sin That's that's the reality and their sin will always fall short of glorifying

God now once a person because regenerated

And They are still able to sin posse peccare is

The term the Latin term used and yet now they're able not to sin as well

In other words, they're able to act with truly God glorifying Choices nonetheless, they are still able to sin.

So it's only in the final state of Our redemption

When we reached the state of our glorification and a resurrection that we are then finally not able to sin non posse peccare are the terms that Augustine used and so So you can see a kind of progression

A restoration as it were to Adam. The only difference is is that we glorified human beings

We are no longer able to sin We are not able to sin non posse peccare

If that makes sense, that's a mouthful. I'm looking forward to that day Absolutely, and that's what

I described as absolute freedom in the final chapter of my book The day that we look forward to being totally

Freed from all bondage Right, I had a humorous conversation years ago and forgive me

I'm asking my listeners to forgive me because I know I brought this up before so I hope I'm not being overly repetitious with you but Years ago.

I was over a friend's home a Roman Catholic friend and he used to have barbecues and parties over his home where he would purposely

Invite Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants over to his home so that they could eat drink and argue

And I being somebody who loves debating in fact

The great debate series that I ran on Long Island for over a decade with dr

James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries between him and Prominent Roman Catholic scholars and apologists that was born out of those barbecues and gatherings, but but my friend my

Roman Catholic friend said to me that If you don't have the freedom of will to either choose or reject

Christ you are a robot So I said to him Is your greatest goal in life to one day go to heaven?

And he said of course and I said so your greatest goal in life is to be a robot He goes, what are you talking about?

I said well if you define free well as being the ability to either accept or reject

Christ and No one is sinning in heaven and rejecting Christ in heaven I guess you believe that you will be a robot if you make it to heaven one day

And he said after a pause of silence, maybe you can sin in heaven. Oh Well, I have a question about this though because For a while there.

I was starting on a church in my living room We had a fella in there that was he was pretty much there to correct me and I had taught my children

You know through the catechisms and all that stuff and they understood the doctrines of grace and I said to them, you know people love their free will that's the thing that they hate to get rid of it and This guy was in my living room once and after reasoning from the scriptures over and over and over again

He finally just blurted out, but I want my free will my kids are looking at each other like they really do say that What is this attraction to free will?

Yeah, I I believe and I certainly don't want to impugn particular motives to people who hold to the libertarian notion of free will but it does seem to carve out a little bit of You know ability to boast in our own

Capacity To make the choices that we make and and and ultimately attributed to our own selves

And I think it lends itself to a very man centered form of Christianity a very man centered form of the gospel

It has a lot of implications for how you Not only live your life or how how the

Gospels proclaimed and whatnot and you know part of the caricature the whole robot notion is is a aberrant form of what is known as determinism which

The Calvinistic view of God's sovereignty is really what is known as determinism

Because God determines all that takes place. He is the ultimate cause of all that transpires space and history but the but the caricature of that view is known as fatalism and Fatalism basically teaches that what will be will be and it does not matter what you do

But of course, we know that's not true because the scripture tells us that God accomplishes his ultimate purpose

His ultimate purpose is through specific means Therefore for example when we evangelize you know as Romans 10 tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the

Word of Christ and So, how can they hear unless preachers are sent? And the word is preached.

And so the preaching of the word is one of the instrumental causes That God uses to bring about Salvation to bring about people

Who would choose to act in faith and so without the preaching without The communication of God's Word people will not be saved without the communication of the gospel

People will not be saved. I want you to pick up on fatalism when we return from our break and If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Scott Christensen, and what about free will?

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

I trying to please? Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things? That's not the best recipe for popularity. But since that wasn't the

Apostles priority, it must not be ours either We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate

Love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting

Community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 That's 508 -528 -5750

Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program

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That's the private story Welcome back.

This is Chris Ornson. If you just tuned us in for the first hour We have as our guest today on iron sharpens iron

Scott Christensen, and we are discussing his book What about free will reconciling our choices with God's sovereignty our email address is

Chris Ornson at gmail .com If you want to join us with a question of your own and we do have a couple of listeners waiting

Patiently to have their questions asked and answered, but before I go to them you were talking about fatalism before the break and I Remember on the radio station where I used to work the talk show host

Andy Anderson whenever he would have Calvinistic guests on there was always one guy that would call up.

It was a live call -in show. He would call up and Say I'm really terrified that I'm not of the elect.

I love the Lord I have been a member of a Bible believing Church for 20 years and Although I am a sinner like all men

I do Seek to repent of my sin and follow him, but I'm afraid that when I stand before him on Judgment Day He's going to tell me that I am

NOT of the elect and send me to hell now that scenario will never happen Am I right? People seem to think that God is waiting there to to look at your lottery ticket to see if you are one of the elect and that there they actually think that there are people who have been enemies of Christ their entire life until death and remained in rebellion when they died who will be of the elect and They tend to think that there are people who have been faithful disciples of Christ who will go to hell

Because they didn't have you know the stamp on their hand, you know to get into heaven But this scenario just doesn't exist ever in in the future

Does it? No, it doesn't and it's partly because of a misunderstanding what

Calvinism teaches and equating it with Fatalism, you know if God has elected us then that means certain things will come about Namely that people will truly repent of their sins and they will exercise faith

You had mentioned earlier the passage in the book of Acts Chapter chapter 16

Lydia, you know, there's a couple interesting things in that verse. It's it's act 16 14 and it says that that Lydia Lydia was listening and Listening to Paul preach

And the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

So there's three things that are happening there Number one she was listening And she was the passive recipient of Paul's active work of preaching

Right of the things spoken by Paul and then as she was listening the Lord used

The preaching of Paul to open her heart In other words,

I believe that's just simply another way of speaking of the work of regeneration or what? Jesus says in John 6 44 that No one comes to me unless the father draws him

I think these are just different metaphors that are used to speak of the work of Regeneration or a factual calling which

I don't think there's much of a distinction between those two things But then it says that she responded

There's a positive response. There was an act of faith and repentance on her part And so all three of those things had to happen she had to hear the preaching of the word

God had to open her heart and then she had to respond with faith and Repentance and of course

God enabled her to respond with faith and repentance but those those signs of her act of faith and repentance are

Indications that God had indeed elected her You know, you think for example the passage in James chapter 1 verse 18

Where it speaks of God in the exercise of his will that I believe is his decorative will or his sovereign will

That he brought us forth by the word of truth In other words this this phrase brought us forth in the new

American standard means to give us birth It speaks of this work of regeneration But there was an instrument by which that happened and it says by the word of truth in other words through the preaching of the word

And so God uses means to accomplish his ends It's not fatalistic fatalism would basically say well if God has elected you he's elected you and it doesn't really matter how you respond

That's simply not true That is not what scripture teaches and and that's why

I believe Compatibilism makes the most sense of evangelism and and sovereignty and our choices and our responsibility and so forth

Because God is basically the compatibilistic view is that God is the ultimate cause

The primary cause of all of our choices, but he's also the remote cause

Subsequently we are the secondary causes of our choices But the immediate cause in other words our choices

You know our experience of choosing is the more tangible aspect of what is going on And we're not always aware of the invisible work of God You know guiding and directing us and transforming our hearts and minds to accomplish his purposes

We do have a listener in Newville, Pennsylvania Susan who Asks if there was a rebellion in heaven

With Lucifer leading it Proving that there were angels that had the ability to turn against God How do we know that that will never happen today or in the future?

Well, that's a tough question You know the Bible does not give us a lot of explicit information about what took place

In the heavenly rebellion there hence various places in Scripture In either case

I believe that it was a one -time event that once the angels rebelled they were cast out of heaven and And there's no opportunity for Satan or his fallen

Angels to repent in any kind of way nor do I believe that those angels who did not fall which

I believe Consists of the majority of the angels in heaven.

They are in a confirmed state of Righteousness and do not have any further ability to fall now

There's a lot that you have to draw from various passages in Scripture, but that's what I believe

And you're right though There isn't very much that would influence our thinking on that and Susan you have won a free copy of our guest book

What about free will? Reconciling our choices with God's sovereignty the other classic passage that is a go -to

Passage when having a debate or argument or discussion Hopefully don't lead to heated arguments, but sometimes they do

And none of us are perfect and we can lose our tempers even Argument isn't a bad word if it's used correctly, right?

You're right, but in Romans 3 10 through 18 when somebody is boasting about their free will you can say to them on the wait a minute

Rome a Paul the Apostle Paul says to the church in Rome There is none righteous not even one there is none who understands there is none who seeks for God All have turned aside together.

They have become useless There is none who does good there is not even one

Their throat is an open grave with their tongues They keep deceiving the poison of asps is under their lips

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness? Their feet are swift to shed blood

Destruction and misery are in their paths and the path of peace. They have not known

There is no fear of God before their eyes now very often a

Person who rejects our understanding of the bondage of the will or total depravity will say that Paul is using hyperbolic language here that he is using an

Exaggerated form of poetry just to drive the point home that men are generally wicked

But do you think that that is just a hyperbolic or should that be just taken literal?

As to what Paul is written here and then they will use as evidence That it's hyperbolic that there are people all around us who are not even

Christian Who are doing wonderful works of charity some? non -christians are even

In some ways in some sphere of life, they may put us to shame

They may be better husbands than we are as Christians They may be better employees or employers or citizens or neighbors or friends or siblings

They may be more generous and on and on and they are made not even born again

And here is Paul saying that no one is even doing good or using is even capable of doing it

So, how do you reconcile that? Yeah, well, there's a lot. There's a lot to impact there, you know a couple of things

I could say, you know the fact that Paul Strings together a number of quotations mostly from the song.

Yes Would have to suggest that every time he's quoting from various different songs

The hyperbolic language is being used in all of those songs, that's a little bit Far -fetched to assume that he's using hyper

You know that David or whoever the solvist was uses hyperbolic language every time they talk about the depravity of man

You know, so I don't think this is hyperbolic language and of course scripture does use hyperbolic language Jesus often use hyperbolic language in his teaching, but I think the context has to determine whether that's that's the case or not

You know, one of the things that I think we have to understand about About interpreting this passage is, you know, no one does good.

There is no one righteous What does that mean? Does that mean that people never do morally good things?

Well, we know that's not what Paul means because of the previous passage in chapter 2

He says Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law

Gentiles not having a law are a law to themselves and so He indicates that that we have this moral code written upon our hearts

You know Romans 2 15 and therefore people do do a kind of good

But the question is what is the nature of that good? And I think as you move further on in Romans chapter 3 the key verse that summarizes

Paul's whole doctrine of depravity is Is verse 23, which most people are familiar with all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God What does that mean?

What I believe that means is that no matter how good our deeds are as Isaiah says

They're nothing more than Then minstrel rags is really the language there.

They're You know, our righteousness is as dirty rags

And and so though people Do do morally good things.

What is the motive behind it? And that is the question. Is it a motive that seeks to bring

God's glory? I don't think so because in chapter 1 of Romans Paul says that verse 21 speaking of sinful human beings

For even though they knew God they did not honor him as God In other words, they did not seek to bring him glory

Ultimately, you have to ask the question who is receiving glory through the good deeds that human beings do

God or themselves? and If somebody is not truly humbled

At the state of their own depravity and how far short they fall of God's glory

And of his honor and they have not humbly come to a recognition of that I don't care how good of a person they might be

Their motives are ultimately for self -glory and not God's glory and therefore their deeds are not truly righteous

They're not really good They don't have the fear of God before their eyes

They have their own A boasting in their own good deeds and pride is at the root of also,

I believe and true God born humility is at the root of righteousness and So I think those are the kinds of distinctions that have to be made.

So I don't think Paul is using hyperbole at here at all The Irony is when there are

Fundamentalists who are in some points hyper literalists who will say that that's figurative language

They'll totally abandon ship on their own We do have an anonymous listener who wants to know

I have seen on the Internet individuals and churches who think that everyone who believes in a

Arminian concept of free will is damned. Does your guest believe this? Well, no, no,

I do not believe that There are lots of Calvinists that would suggest that our millions

Because of their view of free will Are somehow not true believers.

I Remember there's that I may be messing up this quote But But somebody once asked

Spurgeon Charles Spurgeon You know, do you think we shall see, you know, mr.

Wesley in heaven Referring to John Wesley who was an ardent Armenian Greatly opposed

George Whitfield who was a strong Calvinist and yet they were friends. I believe Whitfield even preached at John Wesley's funeral

I Heard the reverse actually heard it was But He says no we shall not and The man that asked the question seems satisfied with that He said well the reason why is because he will be so close to the throne of God And we not that we shall not see him.

Now, of course, there may be some questionable Theology You know that Spurgeon acknowledged that even though John Wesley was in great error in his teaching

That I do not believe consists of you know of Such a state of hereticalness that we would you know

Damn, yeah, because Spurgeon's Description there was hyper hyper probolic

You know my stepfather when he came into the knowledge of the doctrines of grace made a very interesting statement that He said it was almost like getting saved all over again

Mm -hmm, and you know, I can't help but wondering if sometimes there may be incidents where people because they aren't trusting in Christ When they come into the doctrines of grace, they know they're trusting

Christ that maybe that is a moment of conversion for many of them Yeah, I think that Many Armenians are simply confused and because they have not sat under good solid tea

That that they don't fully understand and this is a confusing topic and I think there's a certain level at which

I think You know, I think some people have said by nature we are

Pelagian You know, we're at best semi Pelagian However, you want to take a look at those issues, but I think there's a great deal of truth to that and I think that the more you come to understand the doctrines of grace and understand the depth of God's grace at his sovereignty.

It's humbling And it shatters our man -centered theology

And yet at the same time, I think that many Calvinists can be quite smug In their understanding of the doctrines of grace and become extremely ungracious in communicating them

You know what? I wrote this book. I wanted to fairly treat the Armenian perspective and I don't think the a person would have written the foreword had

I just simply slammed You know without giving them a fair hearing

I would hope that many Armenians would read my book and be challenged to think through some of the

Theology that they've been taught and there's distortions on both parts Now I think back to my well college days when

I was a fundamentalist The the main view back then what everybody would say about Calvinism Because they had friends who were

Calvinist. They didn't want to totally, you know disparage them, but they would say things like well, you know Freewill and an election, of course, you know

They're like the rails of a railroad track You know the they go on forever.

They never meet but they you know at some point in heaven will understand it all How would you address that kind of reasoning?

Yeah, I think it's a cop -out You know, it's important that we study doctrine.

It's important that we Understand these issues because it has a deep impact on the way we think about so many other doctrines

Throughout my book. I try to be very practical about how this Impacts the way we think about our sanctification

You know and obedience, you know Christ how we think about You know the nature of our salvation in terms of our eternal security the perseverance of the

Saints, which is the fifth point of? Calvin's points of Calvinism the classic tulip argument, you know, you know in terms of our evangelism discipleship

You know Every area of the Christian life is affected by how you understand these issues and So I I think it's extremely important.

This is not just a side You know a side doctrinal thing that doesn't matter what we think about it

It has a profound impact on the practice of the Christian life And by the way anonymous listener if you give me your full address and name

I assure you that I will not identify you on the air, but you will receive a free copy of Scott Christensen's book as well

We do have Joseph from Suffolk County, Long Island who wants to know how can you maintain your understanding of free will or the lack thereof without Finding God guilty of being an author of evil.

Oh Yes, that is an extremely important question. I do address it at different points in the book it's one of the primary reasons why our minions have embraced a libertarian notion of free will because If the

Calvinist view of God's sovereignty is correct Then that means God is sovereign over everything including both good and evil that transpires in The world and there's a number of passages that you could go to to address this question

But I think one of the most poignant passages comes in the book of Genesis and You know the story behind Joseph and his brothers as you're aware early in the chapters

Joseph was sold into slavery By his brothers because they hated him and did this evil deed and of course

Later on Joseph becomes the prime minister of Egypt and a famine takes place in the land and the brothers

Providentially meet their brother once again and now he has great power and they stand before him in great fear and in Genesis 45

Joseph is speaking with his brothers and he admits very clearly that they were at fault in Selling him into slavery

And yet in the same breath. He says I want you to know though that God Sold me into slavery essentially as what he said and then the key statement in terms of understanding this comes in chapter 50

When they have one last meeting together and Again, he addresses this question and he says to them what you meant for evil

God meant for good Some important understanding that number one there there there's a dual explanation for the same event that event being the brothers selling him into slavery, which was an evil deed and They are culpable

For that evil deed because they had evil intentions They meant it for evil and yet God decreed that same evil event

And yet it says what they meant for evil he meant For good.

Mm -hmm, and I believe that sets forth for us a tremendous principle that we see elsewhere in Scripture that that God can't decree evil and yet he is not culpable for evil because he always

Has a good intention for the evil that he determines now

That doesn't mean that we can understand every single purpose that God might have in ordaining evil

But it indicates to us that because God is good in his character in his nature

He could never have an evil intention And yet he can also decree evil and he does so always with some good intention though We may not always know what those intentions are

And providentially our Our listeners name was Joseph. So very appropriate

Text to go to and I want you By the way, Joseph, you're getting a free copy of Scott Christensen's book as well

I want you to close the program pastor Scott with a summary You most want sorry about that Well most wants on To be etched in our hearts and minds

The hearts and minds of our listeners, I'm still recovering from deafness after our co -host took off his

His headphones and nearly deafened me completely impermanently But anyway, if you could give our listeners what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave today's show

I think Not to get tied up in knots about this whole issue

Of free will I I encourage people to read my book I try to lay it out as clearly and as biblically as I can but ultimately to know that God is a glorious a powerful a sovereign and a gracious and wonderful God and that when we understand

God's sovereignty and understand that he That He meaningfully uses our own freely exercised choices as that's properly defined

It brings him glory and it benefits us tremendously and Understanding how

God's sovereignty and our choices work together Is I believe a tremendous encouragement for so many aspects of the

Christian life And and I just want readers Here's to Be encouraged by that Well, it's been a joy and I knew that an hour was gonna go by like a bullet with the subject

And I really hope that you could come back again We would love to have you as a guest again to discuss this further and other issues

Pastor Scott. Well, it's my pleasure and I want to repeat Pastor Scott Christensen's website address for Summit Lake Community Church.

It's summit Lake Church dot o RG Summit Lake Church dot o RG and to get his book go to Cumberland Valley Bible book services website and order it and Mention iron sharpens iron.

The website is CV BBS calm CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm.

Thank you so much. Pastor Scott Christensen. We look forward to having you back You're welcome. And I hope our listeners will stay tuned because we have

God willing in a matter of Seconds joining us. Dr. Ken Gentry who has formerly been a guest on iron sharpens iron and We are going to be discussing his book in which he defends a literal six -day creation a

Young Earth position on the creation account in Genesis as it is written in the Genesis Genesis account

Literal or literary and we once again if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dr

Ken Gentry our email address here is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA and We're gonna be right back right after these messages. So don't go away

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Welcome back. This is Chris Ornson Just tuned us in our guest for the second hour is dr.

Ken Gentry and Dr. Ken Gentry is the pastor of Living Hope Presbyterian Church in Green Greer, South Carolina And he is the author of a number of books today

We are discussing his latest book hot off the press from master books

It is titled as it is written the Genesis account Literal or literary and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a very long absence

Iron to iron sharpens iron. Dr. Kenneth Gentry Good to be with you again,

Chris. I appreciate the invite to come on board And I'd like to introduce you to my co -host who

I don't know if the term fan is appropriate to use amongst Christians Who are?

But he I Comes very close to the borderline of worshipping you in a heretical manner

But my guest Reverend by I should say my co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor is absolutely enthralled

With your work and it has benefited him greatly and I'll let you hear it from him in his own words

Reverend Buzz Taylor Well, it's finally time. I spoke with you. Dr. Gentry Careful not to sometimes it when

I'm talking to other people about subjects it appears like it's in vain but Definitely to just soften what

Chris said a little bit I've read a lot of books and the ones

I seem to hand out most are yours Why don't you tell our listeners which which are the ones you know?

Oh my goodness How way back to well, even your little one crucial issues regarding tongues

I've been dying to steal all that work from you So but what it is is I find your books very very well organized

And in fact, I'm gonna put a little bit of confession in here too that even when

I was preaching I just could not reinvent the wheel So you're one of your books was actually a basis for a series of messages that I did and that was the

Christian and alcoholic beverages Yeah, so but of course I've noticed over the years some of the titles have changed a little bit but your book

God's law in the modern world and I think every person should be tied down and Forced to read he shall have dominion

Well, especially the third edition that I'm reading now because it is longer But and I've said many times that I think he shall have dominion and the greatness of the

Great Commission should be bound together hard covers only please and Disseminated as widely as possible

Well, thank you for that endorsement. I appreciate it and Before we even go into the topic at hand the

Genesis account literal or literary Let us hear something about the

Presbyterian congregation where you serve as minister Well, it's ironic that this has come up because Sunday's my last

Sunday there. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm going into retirement Okay Probably should have told the folks at master books that that was coming and I forgot to and they put it on the book that I'm pastor there, but this

Sunday be my last Sunday there But I've enjoyed seven and a half years with the fine folks. They're strong Bible believers and I'm gonna miss them great

Well, there have been as you know other books written on the

Genesis creation account there I have been available to the church a number of works defending a young earth literal six -day creation and Why did you find a need to add another to the shelves of Christians?

Well, interestingly when I was a pastor in, California, Southern, California There was a debate debate that arose in the

Presbytery I was in over the issue of framework hypothesis versus six -day creation and I was appointed to that committee

I was one of I think maybe nine people on the committee and we had a good time discussing and debating the issues scholarly

Careful discussion. It was a lot of you know, table -thumping and name -calling or anything and at that time

I saw that the framework Hypothesis was really starting to gain ground It had kind of just percolated for a little while for maybe 20 years or so since Meredith Klein first reintroduced it to the to the

Presbyterian Church in the 1950s, but boy by the 1990s it was beginning to make great inroads

And so I thought it important eventually to get something out there now This book that you're talking about is really a revision and expansion of a book.

I wrote about 15 years ago Well, let me repeat our email address

It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com You just reminded me by mentioning

Meredith Klein of a joke I told at a recent debate I was I said that I object to being accused of Being a male chauvinist.

I said some of my favorite of all Christian theologians from history were Dear sisters in Christ like Meredith Klein Lorraine Bettner and Kim riddle

Barger But now

There there has been the accusation By literal six -day creationists that those who holds to an old earth view would never be doing so if it were not for the existence of Darwinian evolution and The theories the scientific theories of non -christians and even anti -christians they these young earth

Defendants would say that there is no reason to believe in an old earth and the only reason that Christians even embrace an old earth is that they don't want to embarrass themselves in Front of the scientific community that tends to lean the other way.

What would you say about that? Is that an is that a fair? Overreaction to those who disagree to you with you.

I think I think it is largely true. You don't find these new views of Genesis 1

Arising until after the arising of Darwinian evolutionism Then you begin to find one new view after another such as the gap theory was one of the older ones

The revelatory day theory and logical day theory progressive creation functional creation framework hypothesis

It's been one new Approach to Genesis wanted to after another and they generally arose

After Darwin came on the scene and began to have influence and even the framework advocates admit that The six -day creation view is the traditional view of the majority of the church throughout history

I've got quotes here about unraveled. Shea Meredith Klein and Bruce Waltke that do say that this has been the traditional view of the church

So it seems to me to be a fair analysis to Say that the new view such as a framework view arose after Darwin and because of Darwin and somewhat because they didn't want the

Christian faith to be embarrassed or to lose its integrity so they Went back and reviewed the scriptures and came up with these different viewpoints now right before this program a friend

Had said to me and I didn't have time to investigate the claim but He said that Verne Poythress very well -known reform scholar

Says that the language of Genesis is not clear enough to give us definitive proof on the length of time with which

God created the universe that it Could be taken as poetic language

Because of the fact that the establishment of literal 24 -hour days Was not in existence before the creation

Sequences began but if you could comment on that if you know what Verne Poythress believed or just the argument in general

Yes, Verne Poythress is a brilliant theologian. I admire much of what he says.

He's a Presbyterian theologian and has a lot of influence and interpretive issues and Formal debates and things of that sort.

I believe he's wrong there I believe that anyone reading Genesis chapter 1 with the majestic March of Days Going on and on and on.

I don't see how you could come out of there without recognizing that Moses For in the first place

Moses is not using poetic structure when he writes Genesis chapter 1 and When he got when you go through Genesis chapter 1 you find that he seems to be going out of the way to make sure

That we hold to a six -day creation process. Let me just rehearse real quickly for you several arguments from Genesis 1

There's the argument from primary meaning that is that the word yom which is translated day there

It generally means in scripture almost always means a normal day either the sunlight portion of a day

Or the whole 24 hour day period it only very occasionally Means an age then you've got the argument from explicit qualification that is after each day

He says evening and morning And then you have the issue of the numerical prefix each day and Genesis 1 is attached with a numerical

Prefix first second third etc. And then you also have the days appearing in a numbered

Series not only are they named first day and second day and third day But they're put in a row first second third fourth fifth

It's not like you read first day and then a few verses later you read seventh day and he's talking about different things it is a numbered series and Also, and I say just as the last point here that in Genesis time

Excuse me in Exodus 20 verse 11 where we have the fourth commandment. It says very clearly

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and you don't find in scripture anywhere that day in plural means an age or anything other than a series of days that Make it a plural form

We do I disagreed with burn Poitras and but admire him at the same time

I do not believe that the scriptures unclear at all in Genesis chapter 1. We have a listener in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Dan Who says my question is

I have a friend who is an old earther He is not in he is not an evolutionist

He is a believer but says that Hebrews or the the Hebrew language

I should say Allows for an old earth position Looking at the speed of light and other scientific considerations have brought him to this conclusion

How would you address this issue? I think you touched on it already But if you could answer

Dan more specific specifically Well, it is interesting that the gentleman he's quoting or referring to does say that external considerations

Moved him to hold to an older the speed of light is not mentioned in Scripture That's something you get out outside of Scripture So that's going back to our opening where we said it's only since the arising of evolution that these views these scientific

Arguments have come to bear against the Christian faith and Christian interpretation of Genesis 1 and has caused

Christians to step back and to reinterpret it Genesis chapter 1 and 2 and other places

So the fact that he's mentioning That it is the speed of light problem shows that he's thinking of something outside of Scripture Rather than looking at the exegesis itself and like you mentioned in framing the question you may have or you said you may have already answered the question exegetically, which

I have by going through those various Notes that show that today's were intended to be

Literal days and sequential days at that now, I'm not a scientist. I've got a son who's got his master's in physics

He might be able to deal with this better than I can but dr. Jason Lau of the

Institute for creation research is a Christian six -day creationist astrophysicist not just an astronomer

But an astrophysicist and he has published several papers Dealing with the problem of light in the speed of light and things of that sort since the universe is theoretically 13 .8

billion years old in the in the eyes of the Scientist, how can that light from so far away get here in that time frame?

But again, that's not my field I'm not a scientist. So I won't pretend to be able to answer those questions, but I would point the listener to dr

Jason Lyle in his works. In fact since you brought him up, I'm gonna read a quote by dr. Jason Lyle Commending your book as it is written is a superb defense of six -day creation

By one of the finest Bible scholars of our time. Dr. Gentry demonstrates that the text of Scripture is clear about the timescale of creation and that Non -literalist views such as the framework hypothesis collapse under careful scrutiny

I did not pay him to say that I was fascinated by a video that I watched him conduct on Fractals a really fascinating Discussion that for those who are not believers and are fascinated by fractals a good evangelism tool

Got heard Jason speak several times and we've got to know each other. I've met him once and we've corresponded some and I Was fascinated each of the several times

I've heard him speak. He's an incredibly bright thinking scholar We have another listener

Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York Who asks do you believe that old earth creationism is damnable heresy?

No, I don't I believe that that I believe damnable heresy Should focus on the deity of Christ the existence of God and Salvation by grace through faith the resurrection of Christ and the fundamentals of the faith

I think that a person can be confused and hold to a an old earth view

I think it can be dangerous. I have some quotes in the book from some people who went from framework

Hypothesis into atheism so it can be dangerous, but I don't think by itself it is because there are a number of good

Scholars who are very definitely born -again Christians who hold to this old earth view.

I just simply disagree with them I think they're wrong, but I don't think they're doomed to everlasting destruction on that basis

What about the gospel though as far as? Yes, you know when I think of old earth

That would almost necessitate all kinds of birth and death and all before death actually

Entered the world. How do you address that? That's a serious problem, and I do address that in my book for the whole day old earth theorist

It is a serious problem that death destruction mutation and Disappearing of various species and dead ends with Evolutionary development all

Happened in the world prior to the fall of Adam And they argue that that is not relevant what is relevant is the moral condition of man

That's where sin is resident. It's not in the death of animals, but in the moral actions of man

Wholly disagree with them, and I've got a big section in that book From the beginning very expressly

Genesis 1 says that both animals and man were to eat a vegetarian diet And this is because death itself had not entered the world

Not only in man, but even in animals, so I believe they're fundamentally wrong on that by the way,

I want to let Dan and Christopher know that you are getting a

Free copy you're each getting a free copy. You're not getting one to share because you live in different places

You're each getting a free copy of as it is written the Genesis account literal or literary compliments of master books

Thanks for your questions, and we do have BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who wants to know

Are you aware if there is a significant number of old earth

Creationist Advocates who believe that Adam and Eve evolved from lower life forms like apes

Yes, there are there are folks that believe that in fact There's a book that the caller there or the listener ought to check on and that's published by Zondervan It's in their counterpoint series.

It's called four views of the historical Adam and a couple of the views

I just found Astounding that they would some of one of the guys says he doesn't believe

Adam was a real person It's that that Adam is a theological teaching tool for us that we might learn a moral lesson about obeying

God Another says that Adam was not the first human But he was a person elected by God to become a representative

And to be tested for the rest of us, but that he's really descended from others before him So there are and every one of these in this book the four views of the historical

Adam every all four of the Adherents there declared themselves to be evangelical

Bible believing Christians that believe the deity of Christ his resurrection the inspiration and then even inerrancy of scripture, but when

I read some of the guys materials there, I'm just shocked but that's

I Can't imagine falling into that trap myself, but they have BB you're getting a free copy of the book as well compliments of master books.

Thank you for the question and It is astonishing that There are people who to go to the length of Embracing the the theory that Adam and Eve evolved from apes

They're embracing that theory when there is no scientific evidence Pointing to the fact that humans evolved from apes

In fact all the scientific evidence would point to the fact that that would be biologically impossible because apes when they procreate and only have ape children and humans

Also can only breed What they are? other humans

But it's really insane that these people are willing to Abandon the account that we have in Scripture when there's no there's not even any scientific evidence pointing to this

Well, I'm so happy that there are some good creationist ministries out there such as creation ministries international

Such as Institute for creation research answers in Genesis And they have developed a large body of scholarly literature from a scientific perspective as well as biblical demonstrating what

Science should be teaching that we live in a young earth And it's a special creation by God and animals and plants etc create our procreate after their kind So I'm very thankful for these ministries and these institutions could you

Go into a little bit about the establishment of genre type okay, that's an important issue because The scripture does use poetry very definitely uses poetry in the book of Psalms And we see things you know we see

God having arms and the feet of the Lord and things of that sort which obviously is

Anthropomorphic language, it's poetic language But in the book of Genesis you have a book that is fundamentally historical in its orientation in fact the book of when we read

Genesis 1 2 & 3 We're reading the introduction to earth history through the creation of the world the creation of Adam And then in Genesis 5 we've traced

Adams descent on down to Noah And then we later in Genesis 10 we can trace trace it all the way to Abraham So what he's doing in Genesis is writing a historical book to explain to Israel where she came from She's about to go into the promised land remember

Moses didn't go into the promised land So Moses is writing the book of Genesis to equip the people of Israel to withstand

Which they didn't to withstand the temptation to fall into idolatry and to follow after the false gods and He's giving them a history of where the world came from and how they are special in that world

They are descendants that God has chosen to do a special work, and he's urging them to maintain

Their integrity so the book of Genesis has a very strong concept of history in fact

It has been reported in several books that the Hebrews basically Created linear history you remember in antiquity there was a view of cyclical history that all goes around comes around kind of thing

But the Hebrews were the earliest in history to start speaking of a linear history They believed in a creation they believed in a consummation

And they believed that the two were connected and so the genre of Genesis fits well with that it

In this structure of Genesis you have these Wow consecutive They're called and consecutive you read over and over again in the structure of Genesis And this and that and that Which could be translated better probably then this then that then that and so the idea of this style of Genesis is

That it is speaking not in a poetic way But in a way of prose regarding progress and sequence in historical realities and up now

Moses can write poetry we see him writing poetry in various places for instance

The Song of Moses and Exodus 15 is one place and another Song of Moses and Deuteronomy 32 and he writes a little poetry in Genesis, but so the poetry can be written by Moses and The poetry that he writes is distinctive according to its

It's how it's framed the poetic imagery that he uses in the poetic structure is very evidence

Evident when he's writing poetry, but when we read Genesis 1 2 & 3 We only see little flourishes of poetry every now and then like the woman

But the man said this is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh That's a poetic sort of statement

But the main body of Genesis 1 2 & 3 is very clearly prose very clearly a historical genre and it's not poetic device in any shape form or fashion

We have to go to a break right now If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away. We'll be right back with Kenneth Gentry Attention coin collectors and investors

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Chris Arnson at gmail .com if you have any questions for our guests today

Dr. Ken Gentry who is defending a young earth creation position a literal six -day creation position and We do have

Let's see here. We have Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who

Asks is a good defense of a literal six -day creation The fact that the

Sabbath day is a literal 24 -hour day and The reason that we have that day called the

Sabbath is That God rested on the sixth day that our Sabbath day is not a

Hundred or a thousand or ten thousand or a million years long. It's 24 hours long. Is that a good argument to use?

Yes, I think that's an adequate argument to use and what's interesting about the question is that in the framework hypothesis?

They believe that the days of Genesis are anthropomorphic that they're using

Ideas that come from man's experience and applying them to God so that the days are anthropomorphic and that God has

Condescended to explain the fact that he's created his whole universe and he uses man's work week to Explain that just as you work

So do I work and I've created the universe and I'm following the pattern of your work in seven days

Six days followed by a day of rest However, that's the exact opposite of what

Exodus 20 verse 11 Our week is based on God's week. And so that's that's a fundamental flaw.

I believe in the framework hypothesis, and I think the caller there Has well,

I would say if I knew him he hit the nail with his head I'll say he hit the nail on the head that this is something

God has given us The Sabbath has been given to us in the law of God to show a six -day creation process followed by one day of rest

And I think he's he's got a good point there. Well, uh Christian you are also receiving a free copy of dr

Kenneth Gentry's book compliments of master books and Buzz did you have a question there?

I don't know. I don't think he's doing a fine job. No, okay He was I misread a gesture that he thought that he was giving me the the thing that It comes up a lot when

I hear this issue discussed is that it really doesn't matter you will have people that say that that Christians on both sides are making a big fuss over Trivia, it doesn't affect the gospel.

Why are we even bothering to have disputes over it? I mean do you think that that is a

Over simplification of the the debate here is that Is it wrong or dangerous to view?

This is in consequential? No, I believe it's a very important debate that we're having

I think it should be conducted in a Christian manner, of course But it is an issue that needs to be focused on it tells where the entire universe came from This issue deals with where the entire universe came from and where sin comes from and We've got to recognize that the

Bible opens with Genesis chapter 1 and 2 and 3 and is therefore

It's the foundation to the whole redemptive story the whole history of the world

And it's rooted right there in Genesis 1 and 2 plus you've got to recognize I believe that the doctrine of creation is found in all the ancient creeds of the church the church fathers deemed it's something very important that they would put

I believe in God the Father Almighty maker of heaven and earth and those kind of statements in in the creeds because it was a part of what the church believed and also, the biblical doctrine of creation is

Fundamentally distinctly different from all other religions and philosophies. It's very different from the ancient near Eastern Mythological views it's very different from the modern philosophies and different from evolutionary theory

It is a distinctive contribution to the human race that Christianity has brought to tell this world where it has come from So that it might also give the rest of the story to tell where it's going in Jesus Christ Yeah, it seems to me also the part of the question that you answered

It really does affect the gospel because I mean when the New Testament refers to Christ as the last

Adam What does that mean? If there was no first Adam in a literal sense of the word or however, they would interpret it

Yes, you're right Fundamentally, right. I agree very much with you, but be aware the old earth

Christian would say but was Jesus the last and they would they would say

The first and the last there are first and last of a particular pairing not first and last as universal history because Jesus It's not the last one in history but again,

I think you're correct because what the point of Paul what Paul's point is is that he's

Showing sin came through Adam righteousness comes through Christ salvation comes through him.

In fact in Matthew 19 verse 6 well versus born following Jesus himself

Quotes from both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 when he says he made them male and female

For this reason a man shall leave his father mother etc. But what's so fascinating about the passage is that Jesus says?

Don't you know that from the beginning? He made them male and female Now the old earth view the earth or the universe is 13 .8

billion years old The earth is 4 billion years old man only been here for a short period of time

But Jesus says from the very beginning so it it does indirectly impact salvation because it begins to bring doubt upon the words of our

Savior Jesus Christ who claimed that it was in the beginning that God made them male and female not billions or millions or years later and of course

Not all old earth creationists would deny that Adam and Eve were literal people that were

Created from the dust of the ground correct. Well, they've obviously created out of Adam, right?

See John Collins is one of he's a brilliant Old Testament scholar from Covenant Theological Seminary He's an old earth advocate.

He has the most persuasive approach to older exegesis as any of I have seen and he holds to a little

Adam and a little Eve created according to the pattern in Scripture and so But he doesn't see

Animal death, etc as a problem in the old earth view that he holds, but he does hold to a literal

Adam So an old earth creationist can hold to a literal Adam and Eve and if you could

If you could tell our listeners what the most compelling argument against your view

That you could think of is and your response to it Okay, well there there are several arguments that people will bring up against six -day creationists, especially from the framework

Approach and one is that the the fourth day they say Accomplishes the same thing as the first day accomplished

But day one God creates light to give light on the earth and he says it's good And he separates the light from the darkness on day four

God creates the Sun to give light on the earth He separates the light from the darkness and he declares it good

And what they're saying what the framework advocate is saying is the same thing is happening on day one and day four

Therefore they're the same day in the structure of Genesis one is simply a literary flourish to teach us basically that God created all things and it's not in Intending to deal with the issue of the of the length of time or the order of events or anything at all but the answer to that problem is that Genesis The first day does not accomplish the same thing as this as day four because when day one he creates light

And God calls the light good, but then after he calls the light good then he has it separating

Night and day and so God has not declared Light separation into night and day to be the final good

Form that he wants it to be it's not until day four comes where he creates the Sun to govern light day

And so now he's through with the light and so he says now it is good in other words lights created

God separates darkness from the light light from the darkness But he doesn't declare that separation good until day four because we'll find it that there are several places

Well, for instance on day two when God separates the waters above from the waters below Day two is the only day that does not have a divine statement.

It is good That's because God is not through the separating process yet He separated the waters above the waters below But he's got to separate the earth from the water as he does on day three to the dry land appears

And so when he's finally through moving the waters around and separating the waters, he declares them good so the problem for the

Framework advocate is that he thinks on day one God has called the separation of light and day light and darkness good

But if you read the cat text carefully, that's not at all what he said It says then God saw the light and the light was good and then

God separated the light from the darkness So the light is declared good, but not the separation which doesn't occur until day four

It and another problem that some bring up is the long day Issue for instance

Genesis 2 for this is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created in the day that the

Lord God made earth and heaven and Some will say well see there's the word day used and he's talking about the whole account of creation and calling it a day

But actually it doesn't say that it if you look at the Hebrew the word day is there

But it's attached to a preposition it's not just simply Yoma day but by Yom Which is an idiomatic expression that that means win

In fact, there are some translations including the NIV that translate that win

So some will read a King James or New King James or even some of the modern translations and say look this

Creation process is called a day process in Genesis 2 for but if you look at it

You'll notice that it's not the case at all It's it's a prepositional phrase not a

Where are you talking? What text? Genesis 2 for this is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created in the day

Some will say there's day being used for the whole creation of the whole universe And but no, that's a prepositional phrase

Which is an idiomatic expression and simply saying this is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created

That's all he's getting at there and I believe it's the NIV that has the proper translation there

Genesis 2 for and then there are a lot of Lot of scholars even old a old earth advocate see

John Collins He even recognizes that that is a an idiomatic expression

And so that the word day there cannot be used against the six -day creation. Even this old earth Did you have a follow -up buzz no, okay

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania Who says I've very often heard that the earth must be

Very old a lot older than what is claimed by young earth creationists because dinosaurs lived and died before man

Arrived on the earth and they will say there is scientific proof

That dinosaurs and men did not cohabit the earth together. Is this true?

Well, yeah, that's a scientific question. I've read a good deal on it, but it's not my field of expertise

But I will say that scientists are now beginning to find DNA in in the fossils of dinosaurs and they know that DNA cannot exist for that longer period of time for millions or for tens of billions of years and It tends to degenerate and so the fact that they're able to Draw out some

DNA from some of these fossils Indicates that the ages are not as long as they had originally postulated and then also

Christians will point to the fact that it there appears to be reference to dinosaurs in the book of Job But about the

Hamlet who swings his tail like a cedar and things of that sort And so there apparently was a time in which man and dinosaur did live together

But of course, we would expect me and not to just walk among the dinosaurs with a big grin on his face

I mean huge but but so he would have tended to separate himself from where the dinosaurs live like Well, I guess some people in Africa live near lions, but I certainly wouldn't want to well, yeah, they did the descriptions that you have of the behemoth and the

Leviathan are so clearly resembling that of dinosaurs

Because you can't even put a muzzle on it or anything where even a even a tiger or some other ferocious animal

An alligator you could do that Even Tarzan can do that And The The other odd thing is that even even evolutionists will say that Crocodiles and Tortoises and other things like that lived at the same time as the dinosaurs did well, why wouldn't they be dinosaurs?

Why isn't a crocodile and an alligator and a tortoise? Why aren't they dinosaurs if they lived at the same time as dinosaurs and dinosaurs came in all sizes?

Well, you know, I wouldn't let this be another dinosaur since we did do the documentary did do the plug for the

Institute for creation research at the beginning of the hour They have an excellent excellent video on that subject that if our listener

Would really be interested in pursuing that particular thing. I don't recall the exact name of it It's like dinosaurs and dragons or something like that.

But no, yeah Yeah, I saw that is that the it's an excellent video on that subject that explains it very well and goes into a lot more

Detail than we have time for on this show Yeah, I would urge Christians that have these kind of scientific questions arise not to just listen to the scientific question from the secular

Humanist but to listen to the question and then go ask scientific creationist. How do we answer this?

Because sometimes we're trying to wing it on our own and Some big news about a dinosaur would think well, it's all over.

I have to give up six -day creation Go find the experts in the field.

I'm not a Scientist, I'm not a paleontologist and probably the listener there isn't either so they need to check the alternative viewpoints

That are available. Yeah, and I don't even know how any scientist could absolutely prove that anyway

I mean, I mean obviously we believe he could not because we believe that dinosaurs did exist with men

But I don't even know on and even from an atheist point of view how a scientist could absolutely

Irrefutably prove that they did not cohabit the earth together, right, right I want to make sure before our time runs out that you really

Leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds regarding the subject and then perhaps

We'll take a couple of more listener questions. If we have time I just don't want the time to run away from us without you really giving our listeners

The most important things you want them to remember after today's program Well, I would urge the

Christians in the audience To believe the scriptures to hold firmly to them and when they hear objections to the scriptures or when they hear scientific evidence

That seems to counter Veil against the scriptures that they not too quickly

Let down the guard and give up on the point They need to go into the scriptures to find out what it really says and then find

Experts in the field that can help them answer the objections I see too many people swept away with scientific opinion and when

I talk to them I find they don't really have that much depth in their scientific understanding and yet they've been swept away from the faith

You know There's someone recently who said something to the effect that how can we expect our children going to a public school getting?

15 ,000 hours of education in evolutionary and secular humanism Theory and then expect them to draw telling our color pictures of Noah's Ark on Sunday one hour a week

How can we expect that to counterbalance the 15 ,000 hours? Well, the point being we we as parents we as churches we as Christians need to be teaching these issues to our fellow believers our family and all because We're just letting the humanists run away with Amen and The I think that we also have to make sure that we instill within the hearts and minds of Our fire -breathing young earth creationist brothers that they are not to be

Chasing down the old earth creationist through the streets with torches and trying to lynch them because Don't you agree as much as we believe this is a very crucial and important issue that we have to be very careful not to Slander our brethren and Condemn them as as heretics when they have a different view on this, especially if it doesn't touch on The creation account of Adam and Eve and so on, you know,

I'm not talking about those who endorse The evolution of Adam and Eve from apes or anything like that I'm just talking about those who disagree on the age of the earth.

Yes, I believe that's very true Paul says the servant of God should not be contentious and that we need to gently and in love oppress our views and If we start chasing people down like you said

Hounding them then we're going to be showing ourselves to be belligerent Intolerant unable to think through the issues and we just want to push our viewpoint so we need to lovingly present these matters to them and There have been many many scientists even had that had been persuaded out of their

Evolutionary theory into a creationist viewpoint you go on the Institute for creation research answers and Genesis creation ministries you will find a number of Adherents to six -day creation who are scientists who were once evolutionary theorists

And so I'm sure it wasn't because somebody chased it down and beat him over the head with it It's because someone lovingly interacted with them and challenged them in a gracious way

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania wants to know If we are not scientists should we avoid getting too deep into conversations like this when we are evangelizing the lost?

Because very often they bring up rabbit trail issues to deflect them from the actual

The actual gospel message that is first and foremost of Importance, I believe that's wise.

I believe that we shouldn't let the Presentation of the gospel be directed down rabbit trails

However, I believe that if someone challenges you on the basis of an evolutionary thought say that is an important question

It's one that needs to be dealt with Christians have dealt with it. Perhaps we can deal with that later.

But right now consider this, you know There are ways to not to brush it aside, but to set it aside on a temporary basis to get your evangelistic point across and I'd like you to since you're stepping down and retiring from the pastorate at The congregation there that I've been plugging

Why don't you let our listeners know how they can get in contact with you Perhaps another website that you may have and let our listeners know other other writing projects that you may be involved in and other things

Okay, I have two or three websites. One is called Kenneth country comm and That one's of my commercial site where my books

DVDs Audio visual materials and all of that and sold if anyone's interested in some things

I've written or taught on Then I can be reached also through post millennialism today calm

Which is a blog site where I write and promote a post -millennial perspective like was brought up first of the show by buzz

Wrote the book he shall have dominion which is a little over 600 pages And so I deal with those issues there and people can write in and ask about those issues.

In fact right now the net today in the next few blog articles our own

Creationism and because I argue that creation is the foundation to consummation

And so we need to have a proper beginning if we're going to understand the end And so those two sites are the best ones.

It was the the second was post -millennials and what? Postmillennialism today calm today.

I do have a Anonymous listener who says it's ironic that your guest is a post millennialist and young earth

Creationist because I have heard that post millennialism is what gave rise to the whole concept of Evolution and things getting better and better if you could comment

Well, you know some will say that post millennialism gave was is basically the view of liberalism and of secularism of the social gospel

Because there were some features of the post millennial There were held by social gospel advocates like Harry Emerson Pasek and some others but I point people to the fact it is impossible for a liberal a secular humanist to be post millennial because Postmillennialism says

Christ will return After a long era of righteousness brought about by the gospel and no liberal believes

Christ will return at all I think he's dead in a tomb somewhere. And so I think it's just a false construct to equate postmillennialism with evolutionary theory

And it is interesting that you have here as our guest today somebody who is theologically reformed and a post millennialist who is defending the literal interpretation of Genesis which would dismantle the slanderous accusations that all reformed people and Postmillennialists are taking a figurative approach to the scriptures

And denying any literal interpretation of them. Yes. I have that charge

Hurled at me from time to time. Well, if you're not a Dispensationalist, you're not a literalist.

Therefore. You're not, you know a true believer in Scripture, but that's simply not the case I'm very strongly committed to Scripture as six -day creation shows.

That's a pretty good test issue right there You really show somebody's commitment to Scripture if they're going to hold a six -day creation

Right. Well, I want to thank you so much. Dr. Gentry for being on the program And once again, his website is

Kenneth Gentry calm Kenneth Gentry calm We look forward to your return to the program

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater