99% Get This Wrong...

TreasureChrist

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So where do I land? What's my position? If you haven't figured it out yet, I believe... And all of a sudden I have less reasons to be

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Calvinist, if not no reasons. What's the most controversial topic within Christian circles?

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Homosexuality? Hell? Women pastors? Yes, those are controversial.

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But the issue of predestination versus free will is arguably far more controversial than even those topics.

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So let's play with fire and talk about it. Now we recognize that there are brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree, whom we still have a lot of respect for.

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So don't see this video as an attack upon anyone, but rather as a friendly discussion.

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On the agenda for today, we have two brothers I have a lot of respect for, two leading

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Christian YouTubers who have been trailblazers for the rest of us, Alan Parr and Mike Winger.

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Both of their channels contain a wealth of solid biblical teaching, and although we certainly have some disagreements,

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I'm very happy to generally recommend their channels as sources of excellent teaching on many, many different topics.

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Their videos are pretty long, so we'll just respond to some of the highlights. Alan Parr recently published a video titled,

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Does God Predestine Some People to Hell and Others to Heaven? Now what we're talking about in this video, if you want to study it a little further, is actually a doctrine called double predestination.

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Wow. Okay. Jumping straight into what's probably the most controversial doctrine in Christianity. Let's do it.

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An election is this idea that God arbitrarily chooses some people before the world was created to be saved.

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This would be the U in the five points of Calvinism. Unconditional election.

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Very controversial in itself, even apart from what Alan is about to describe next.

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But then on the flip side, there is this doctrine called reprobation, and this is the idea that God chooses to pass over selecting certain people, thus leaving them in their sins, which means they will not be saved.

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Right. If God chooses to save some, then naturally that means God has chosen to not save everyone else.

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But the key is that God's not unfair in doing this because he is leaving them in their sins, which means they fully deserve the punishment they end up receiving because they are still sinners who have rebelled against God's moral law.

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But then reprobation is the idea that sinners receive what they do deserve.

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Excellent summary by Alan so far. Premise number five, please refrain from using logic to come to whatever decision or conclusion or position that you have.

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Listen, God is not logical. He is theological, right? Which means some of the things that he does, does not make sense to us.

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So don't say, well, that doesn't make sense, or that's not fair, or no, God would have done this way, or no, this doesn't matter. No, don't use logic.

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Use scripture. I totally get what Alan is trying to say here, but I don't really like the

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Alan contrasts logic with theology and scripture as if one precludes the other.

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I would have just stuck with saying that oftentimes what we think is illogical is actually quite logical, and this is certainly the case with the topic we're exploring in this video.

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There's nothing illogical about theology or scripture. Then premise number six, whatever

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God decides to do or not do, he is still just, he is still fair, he is still holy, and he is still good.

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So far in this video, Alan has basically been on a roll of saying awesome things I totally agree with.

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Really good stuff here. Alan goes on to list a bunch of scripture passages that Armenians use to support the doctrine of free will.

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Regarding the passages Alan mentioned that are used to support free will, here are just two brief notes.

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First, just because scripture commands people to believe does not mean they have the ability to believe apart from God's intervention.

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And second, when the Bible talks about the world, there's a strong biblical argument that it's not referring to every individual in the world, but rather all kinds of people in the world, or people all over the world, or even simply both

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Jews and Gentiles. And then he goes on to say this. Now at this point, if you're watching this video, you're probably on the side of team

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Armenian. You're thinking, wow that's convincing. Like that's some strong support. Anyone and everybody can be saved, but there's a huge problem with this particular view, and that's the fact that if you really subscribe to this and only this, then you're really setting up this idea that a person's salvation largely depends on them.

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It is their responsibility to be saved. Yeah, that's the primary problem with Arminianism and free will.

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If salvation ultimately rests upon our own decision to be saved, then we can't really say that salvation is completely from God.

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The inevitable conclusion must be that some people made a better decision than other people. Some people made the smarter decision to believe in Christ in contrast to everyone else.

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The doctrine of sovereign election is the most pride -crushing doctrine. It is pride -crushing because it's all of God.

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Alan goes on to explain some problems with this Arminian free will view of salvation.

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Ephesians chapter 1 verse 4. For God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in love before Him.

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So this says very clearly that before the world was even created, God looked down throughout eternity and chose me.

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And by the way, this does not mean that God chose me because He first knew I was going to choose Him. No, no, no. The Bible does not teach that He responded to my belief in Him by choosing me.

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It says God arbitrarily chose certain people before the world was created to be saved before I was ever born, before I ever did anything good or bad.

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Alan is absolutely right here. Ephesians chapter 1 is one of the clearest passages that teach the doctrine of unconditional election.

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And the only way to interpret it from an Arminian free will perspective is to do gymnastics and twist what the passages is clearly saying.

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Now you say, brother Alan, that's not that bad. I can get with that. Okay. God chose certain people before the foundation of the world.

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Yeah. But now let's read some verses on the reprobation side. And this is where things start to get a little bit difficult.

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Can we take a moment to appreciate how well Alan is doing so far? Alan is being quite thorough and he's addressing so many of the relevant questions that people have about this topic.

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Proverbs 16, 4 says the Lord has prepared everything for His purpose.

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Here it is. Even the wicked for the day of disaster. Wow. God has prepared wicked people for the day of disaster.

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Wow. That's pretty strong. Let's just repeat that in case you didn't catch it. The Bible is absolutely clear that God has prepared the wicked for the day of disaster.

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In other words, God planned for there to be wicked people whom he would punish because of their wickedness.

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First Peter chapter two verses seven and eight, they stumble because they disobey the word.

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They were destined for this. Wow. They were destined for this. They were destined. They were predetermined to stumble over the word of God or stumble over Christ.

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Another super clear Bible passage here. Peter teaches that people disobey the word because they were destined for this.

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Again, I just don't know how you can get around this. Jude four. There's only one chapter in Jude.

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It says here for some people who were designated for this judgment. Jude teaches that some people were designated for judgment.

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Alan concludes with the most significant passage related to the doctrine of reprobation.

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Let's take our time and go through this last passage of scripture because this one is the clincher and this is the one that we really need to understand.

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It's Romans chapter nine verses 10 to 23. Yes, no discussion of predestination would be complete without talking about Romans chapter nine.

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If you want to dive deep into the arguments from both sides regarding Romans nine, there's a lengthy debate between James White and Layton Flowers on the subject.

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I'll just let you watch that and come to your own conclusions. So where do I land? What's my position? If you haven't figured it out yet,

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I believe in election. I believe the Bible makes it very clear that God does choose some people before the foundation of the world to be saved.

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In his mercy, in his grace, that's his business. Now, I don't know if Alan would consider himself a five -point

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Calvinist, but Alan's position concerning unconditional election is quite solidly on the predestination side and we fully agree with him here.

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That's the first application of this doctrine. The beauty of the doctrines of grace is that it gives us cause to praise

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God and not man. If we believe that our salvation is merely a by -product of God having seen something in us that pleased him, then we have a reason to boast.

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God saw something in me. God saw that I was going to choose him and he said, good job,

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Votie. You softened your heart more than other people. You were smarter than other people. You figured out the gospel and because you did,

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I'm going to apply the blood of Jesus to your life and you will come to heaven and you and I will share glory together.

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By default, I believe that that means God also chooses to pass over other people.

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Notice I didn't say that he predestines them to go to hell. He decides to pass over some people and leave them in their sin, which is ultimately what they want to do.

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They want God to leave them alone. So God says, I will leave them alone. This is close enough to what I believe.

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I might just say that if God is choosing who he's going to save, then technically he's also choosing who he's not going to save.

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And this was all before the foundation of the world. If you like this video, subscribe to help it reach more people.

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So in a sense, God is predestining people to hell. But of course, like Alan said, this isn't unfair because these people are still sinners who deserve hell for choosing to sin and rebel against God.

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God created them with a will, a will that chose to reject God. God is enforcing them to do anything against their will.

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So here's my bottom line. And this is where I land. If you are a believer and you are part of the elect, thank God. Just spend your life thanking

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God that he has chosen you. Be grateful that you're here today and God has chosen you for salvation.

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Amen. We completely agree. God's unconditional saving grace is incredible.

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You say, Brother Alan, what about other people? What about my mommy and my dad and my auntie, my uncle and my cousin and them, right?

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Well, what do I do about them? What if they're not chosen? Well, spread the gospel to the people who are not saved.

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Amen again. We simply don't know who are members of God's elect. So we proclaim the gospel to everyone with the hope that God will save them.

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And our evangelistic efforts are actually part of God's redemptive plan to save his elect.

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Some will argue that believing in the doctrine of predestination will kill evangelism because why should we evangelize?

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Because we already know what's going to happen because God has already made this determination. So why should you go evangelize?

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Let me ask you this. If you take the prescient view, people are chosen or elected based on what?

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That God already saw in the future that they were going to choose him, which means you end up at the same place just for a different reason.

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So we could ask the same question. Why preach the gospel if you hold to the prescient view? If God has already seen something in that person, do you see what

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I'm saying? What's the difference there? The only difference there is where the glory belongs and what the scriptures teach.

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I really appreciate all that Alan said in this video, and I'm basically in agreement with pretty much everything he said.

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Now, Mike Winger is on the other side of the spectrum. Again, I love Mike as a brother in Christ and think he has one of the best

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Christian channels on YouTube, but I do disagree with him on this subject. I want to offer a disclaimer for my

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Calvinist friends. I consider this a family matter. You are my brother and sister in Jesus.

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Well, or sister, not both. But we're part of a family discussion here. I don't vilify

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Calvinists. I don't vilify Calvinism. I really want to maintain, I hope, some respect between me and those who

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I disagree with on this topic. Same here, Mike. I really appreciate you as a brother in Christ and as trailblazer in the realm of Christian YouTube.

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So, here's the issue. Is faith a work? Is faith a work? Well, I'm not sure I would say this is the issue.

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It's certainly one issue. And my contention is that Calvinists, they treat unjustifiably, will treat faith or act as though faith is a work when they're discussing how they defend their

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Calvinist positions. And if we can undermine that and say faith is not a work, then all of a sudden I have less reasons to be

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Calvinist, if not no reasons, maybe not none. Hmm. That's kind of an odd position to hold.

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The issue isn't really whether faith is considered a work, but rather whether faith comes from ourselves or it's a gift from God.

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Basically, is there any element of salvation that ultimately depends upon something that we need to do?

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Because if so, then we can't really say that salvation is completely from God. Didn't we just go through a bunch of scriptures that says faith is not a work?

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So, don't say that my choice to believe makes me a synergist in regards to salvation. We grant that it's reasonable to say that faith isn't a work in the sense that the term works of the law is a specific term that refers to God's revealed law.

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But that's not really the question we're trying to answer. Our question is, is there any part of salvation that ultimately depends on me and my decision?

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Because if so, then I can't really say that God alone saved me. I would have to say that I am saved through God plus my decision to accept

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Christ. So, the implication is that me just by believing, me just saying, I trust you Jesus, I'm doing some of the saving.

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That's not biblical, is it? The verses we read are very clearly saying that you just believing means you did nothing and God gets all the credit, all the glory, and it was by grace.

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But again, I think we're dealing with two separate questions here. Sure, we can say that just you saying,

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I trust you Jesus, doesn't necessarily mean you're doing any of the saving, or that you can't say that God gets all the credit, or that it wasn't by grace.

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We are just saying that if salvation is dependent upon me saying,

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I trust you Jesus, then that decision is an essential prerequisite to salvation that doesn't come from God.

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We can't really then say that every aspect of our salvation comes from God. At the very least, our decision to trust

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Christ didn't come from God. And I think that contradicts passages like Ephesians 1,

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Romans 9, and others that Alan referred to. How can a non -Calvinist position be considered synergism? He says in freewill theism, faith is an independent contribution made by the sinner.

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No, no, no, it's something I do, but I don't even do it alone. I don't do it in a vacuum. I don't do it without the pull of God on me, but I do make a free decision.

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I could accept or reject, and I choose to accept. Again, there's two separate issues here. We can say faith isn't a contribution according to the technical definition of works of the law, but this doesn't address the fact that you're saying that salvation is ultimately dependent upon the free decision that we ourselves make.

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And what we're saying is that doesn't seem to fit with what scripture teaches about unconditional election.

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Calvinist, if you've stuck with me this long and you're a Calvinist, I would love to know your opinion about the things that I've shared, even if you continue to disagree with me.

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That's okay. God bless you guys. God bless you too, Mike. I personally think you're kind of debating the wrong issue and missing the main point of passages like Ephesians 1,

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Romans 9, and John 6. And you probably think I'm missing the mark as well, but that's okay.

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Whenever I tell people that there are pretty solid Christians out there who believe in Arminianism and free will, you're pretty much always the first person

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I think of and mention. You're about as close as I would imagine an Arminian can get to what

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I believe is the truth concerning this subject. Keep fighting the good fight, and I'm here to fight it with you.

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Now, that's God's plan. God's plan of salvation excludes those who exclude themselves.

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You want to know who's excluded from God's plan of salvation? Those who exclude themselves, period.

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You say, well, Brother Paul, what about the sovereignty of God and what about the great mystery of election? All of it's true. All of it's true.

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But I want you to know something. Some people have such a one dimensional understanding of this doctrine that they end up saying things that are not true about God.

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You are completely and fully responsible. And if you do not come to him, it's because you will not come to him.