- 00:09
- First of all, you said because the disciples of Jesus said he was the true prophet.
- 00:16
- I already told you that this fraud and this deception of penning books and claiming them to be written by the disciples, this was pretty common.
- 00:25
- We have so many books, the Eponite Church, and we have the Gospel of Peter which claims to have been written by Peter himself.
- 00:32
- But you reject these books as frauds. You say that these people are lying and deceiving when these books claim to be written by the disciples.
- 00:41
- So in the midst of all this fraud and deception, according to what you're saying, and this fraud is claiming they're writing
- 00:48
- Gospels and claiming it's from Jesus. You can quote the Bible all you want. I don't have a problem with that.
- 00:53
- I dismiss nothing. The only thing I'm asking for is evidence. I'm not dismissing anything.
- 00:59
- Hadith, we'll get into that later. This is not the topic. You can use your Gospel as a historical reference, no problem.
- 01:06
- But if you're going to use the Bible, start showing some evidence for that. What you're doing, you're basically taking the burden of proof and you're passing it to the
- 01:13
- Bible. Where's your evidence for Paul? Just for clarification, this is more of a
- 01:20
- Q &A than a crossfire. You did throw in a question at the end. Well, again, in trying to follow the rules of the debate where you ask a question and I give as clear an answer as I can, we do not have any first century.
- 01:39
- None of these books that Nader has mentioned have a first century provenance. That is, they do not come from the time of the apostles.
- 01:46
- They do not come from the first century Jewish context. They come from very different types of contexts, especially, name one.
- 01:56
- Any of these show clear evidences of coming from the second century, not the first century.
- 02:02
- And they do not come from the time period where the Quran itself makes reference to the disciples and says that a book was sent down that Muslims are to believe.
- 02:14
- Where is that book? Evidently, God let it be completely destroyed. It's gone. No evidence of it left anywhere.
- 02:21
- I don't know why anybody would believe that. But again, if we use meaningful standards, then we look at the historical situation.
- 02:29
- We see that historically, the apostle Paul is accepted by the other apostles, that he labors side by side with them, that they are preaching the same gospel.
- 02:39
- If you will compare, for example, the sermons of Peter recorded in Luke with those of Paul recorded in Luke, guess what?
- 02:46
- They're using the same Old Testament passages. They see the same fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. They are proclaiming the same death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
- 02:54
- Now, was Peter then somehow corrupted? Was Peter not one of the apostles of Jesus that the
- 03:01
- Quran says would be victorious until the Day of Judgment? That becomes the question. And so, once again,
- 03:08
- I just have to turn back to Mr. Achmed and say, what standard do you want to use that you'll be consistent in using for yourself?
- 03:16
- If we read the New Testament, the standard becomes very clear that Paul was consistent in claiming apostleship.
- 03:29
- Okay, sorry about that. Alright, I think I'm not going to force you to answer my questions, okay?
- 03:36
- Basically, he's playing hot potato with the proof. I ask him, where's your evidence for Paul? Because the disciples of Jesus said so.
- 03:42
- Okay, where's your evidence for that? Well, you know, Nadir, you're being a jerk about asking these kind of things. I'm just paraphrasing him.
- 03:48
- So, I think on this point, the debate is over. There's not a single shred of evidence for this man who claims to be a prophet named
- 03:56
- Paul. Now, since you don't have any evidence for this man, I challenge you tonight, just give us one good reason why anyone should even believe in this person.
- 04:05
- The thing about the Quran, ask me about that when you get up, and I'll answer that. And you talked about 1st century versus 2nd century.
- 04:13
- Again, that's nonsense, because people can be just as big of liars 60 years after Jesus, as well as 150 years after Jesus.
- 04:21
- This is called argumentum ad antiquitum. You have not shown a single shred of evidence for this man,
- 04:27
- Paul. I challenge you again for the last time, where's the evidence that he's a prophet? I'm not sure where the question was in all of that.
- 04:34
- That's obviously a rebuttal, but I will try to follow everyone's debate. Yeah, Nadir, again, it's okay if you want to respond, but maybe say 30 seconds on the response and then move into the question.
- 04:45
- And no more interruptions from the audience. I heard a few remarks. In between rounds, if you can say something.
- 04:53
- I guess I'm given two minutes to continue to explain all the further evidence. For example, when
- 04:59
- I just said that the books that he had mentioned, such as Ebionite Gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, and things like that, are not 1st century works.
- 05:05
- They're not. I can't even begin to comprehend the response that was just given to this. You can determine when books were written by looking at the language they used.
- 05:14
- When the Gospel of Thomas uses Valentinian Gnosticism, and we know Valentinus does not flourish until about 145, that probably means it was written after him.
- 05:23
- And so we're able to look at these books and see that those that are suggested to us as having some relevance in the
- 05:30
- Testament come from a later time period. They do not come from the time period that would have been that of the apostles themselves.
- 05:37
- And so, once again, to the Muslim who is thinking this evening, and the Christian who is thinking this evening, upon what consistent basis do you simply reject and say, there's no evidence there, there's no evidence there, that's just Paul speaking, or that's just the
- 05:50
- New Testament. On what evidence do you do that? If you were to apply the same standards, for those of you
- 05:55
- Muslims who know your own history, would you not have to reject the entire foundation of every one of your chains of narration that creates your hadith?
- 06:06
- How do you know, for example, that Uthman did what Uthman said to have done in Sahih al -Bukhari?
- 06:13
- How do you know anything about Muhammad at all? If you have to apply different standards to your history, and then you're willing to apply completely secular standards,
- 06:23
- I would say outrageously ridiculous standards, to mine, doesn't that tell you something? I purposely, as I study
- 06:30
- Islam, attempt to be consistent in the standards that I apply to the Quran, and those that I apply to the
- 06:36
- New Testament. I don't think that we're seeing that from both sides this evening. I'm not applying to a double standard here,
- 06:46
- James, come on, you've got to quit saying that. All I'm asking you is just for a little bit of evidence, just a little bit of evidence,
- 06:52
- I'm not holding any kind of double standard. We talked about Valentinus and how they came later.
- 06:57
- Look, attacking the other Christians and the other churches, that doesn't prove Paul, that this man is really a prophet.
- 07:06
- See, this is the problem. The problem which we find in world religions is exactly this.
- 07:12
- We get people coming up, claiming to be prophets, hey, you know, I saw God in a vision, and here's the book which he wants you all to follow.
- 07:19
- This is a fundamental problem which we see in so many religions, and that's why that religious studies textbook is so thick.
- 07:27
- Okay, now, so basically, there's no evidence of Paul, or else we would have heard it tonight, where's your evidence that the
- 07:34
- Church Fathers were the disciples, I'm sorry, were the students of the disciples, where's the evidence for that?
- 07:40
- Well, when I make those kind of claims, I'll be happy to back them up. No one here this evening has heard me say that the early
- 07:48
- Church Fathers, because they were disciples of the disciples themselves, that somehow gives them a special authority.
- 07:55
- I think you can come up with some very interesting things in looking at Ignatius and looking at Clement. All those things are very important, and we could go into them, but to be honest with you,
- 08:03
- I think they would simply be rejected this evening, out of hand, without any explanation as to why they are being rejected out of hand completely.
- 08:11
- And of course, this entire, if it even is a question, is based upon the assertion that I have given no evidence for the
- 08:17
- Apostle Paul. Repeating a statement many times is not the same as actually demonstrating the statement.
- 08:23
- And if I might add just another, for those who are listening, Christians and Muslims, to the evidence that I have given.
- 08:31
- I'd like to consider the scandal of the cross that the Apostle Paul was so well known for. To even mention the cross in the ancient world was scandalous.
- 08:39
- There were some writers who wouldn't even mention it because it was such a horrible way to die. Think with me for just a moment, the foolishness of the
- 08:45
- Apostle Paul, from a worldly perspective, to try to start his own religion on the basis of a crucified
- 08:52
- Messiah from Palestine. That doesn't sell Roewell in Rome. That doesn't go over Roewell in Corinth, where the wisdom of the world is what people want to hear.
- 09:02
- And to preach the resurrection, he was mocked for preaching that on Mars Hill. And yet he continued to consistently do so.
- 09:09
- Why? Because Jesus Christ had appeared to him on the roads to Damascus. And because he was willing to risk his life, as was
- 09:16
- Peter, and John, and Mark, and Luke. And they all preached the same message. That's the message that is contained consistently in the pages of the
- 09:24
- New Testament. And that's the message that has come down to us. And that's the message that's found in the New Testament sitting outside the door of this room.
