Apologetics - with special guest Scott Weckerly

Apologetics Live

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again. This is

00:05

Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host, from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport.

00:25

Good evening. How are you, Pastor Justin? Doing great, again. Yeah, for the second time.

00:33

Well, we forgot to hit the start button. So, hello, everybody. This is

00:38

Pastor Justin Pierce, Dr. Anthony Silvestro, dentist Dr. Anthony Silvestro.

00:44

Not a real doctor. Not a real doctor. Pretend one. He plays one on TV, and sometimes when you're getting political, they play one.

00:52

And Scott, how do you pronounce your last name? I don't want to wreck it. Weckerle.

00:58

Weckerle. See, almost said Wickerle, so I didn't want to mess it up. So, we've been having a blast.

01:04

I tell you what, this has been one crazy week for me. We actually went to Andrew Rappaport's church on Sunday and got to be a part of his, how do you call it?

01:17

He became an official elder at the church. That was incredible. I'm telling you, the pastor, the co -pastor with Andrew there, the man can preach.

01:29

I tell you what, I just sat and listened to probably, let's see, 9 to 1230.

01:35

I listened to three and a half hours of just wonderful, wonderful preaching. And so, those guys are in store for some great truth.

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But we had a blast with that. We got to go to Hershey Park in Hershey, Pennsylvania. And I don't know about you guys, but I can't stand chocolate.

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So, I got tortured with chocolate. I'm not a chocolate person at all.

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I'm sweet enough as it is. And then we went to Amish country. And man,

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I'll tell you, that was a blast. So, now we're back. Yeah. So, I saw our first question already from Ethan.

02:16

Yeah. Well, first was a comment. He got tired of us talking about Mike Reed. Ethan, I'm tired of it too.

02:24

I cannot stand talking about it. I really wish that he and his elders would repent and resign and allow the people that are attending his cult to be able to leave and go find a real church to go to and start getting healed from all the abuse that they've taken.

02:42

So, yeah, I hope that we can stop talking about this forever at some point here real soon. And then you also asked the question, what happened last week, which

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I was actually going to get into. So, I know Justin, you had a tragedy last week. And if you wish to share,

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I'll let you do that here in a few moments. But Andrew and I were actually with Scott here out in Boise, Idaho last week.

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And we were there for a long weekend. And so what's going on is for those of you who don't know, not only do

03:11

I speak for Striving Fraternity Ministries with Andrew, I also speak for Creation Training Initiative, CTI, with Mike Riddle, who used to be, he's a fantastic creation speaker, used to speak for Ancestors and Genesis for years and has gone off on his own now because he's got a heart for teaching and for training people to teach.

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One of the things that's plaguing Christianity and plaguing our church is we don't have qualified teachers anywhere.

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We don't have people who understand basic doctrine, and they're standing up in front of our kids, barely looking at the lesson ahead of time and trying to teach kids stuff that they really have no business teaching, honestly.

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And so Mike has set out to change Christian education. He wants to change it in Christian schools, in churches, everywhere you possibly can.

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And the only way we can do that is to get teachers trained. So without getting into a whole lot of Mike's background,

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Mike was the head trainer for Microsoft worldwide back when they were growing exponentially in the 90s, late 80s, early 90s,

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I believe is when he was there, directly reporting to Bill Gates. He developed a training program to train their engineers worldwide and constantly was the top trainer within Microsoft.

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He took those principles and brought them to Christianity and to teach people how to actually teach properly.

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So Mike brought me on about almost two years ago now into the ministry to train me up into learning how to train others to teach.

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And what this past weekend was, he flew in around a dozen people from around the country of which

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Scott was one, Andrew was another. So let me make sure you guys hear this right. Andrew was in the audience learning.

05:05

This guy was up front teaching them. I saw a picture of you almost snoring back there,

05:12

Anthony. Yeah. Actually what it was is I was paying attention while Mike was giving his teaching on the first day and Andrew wasn't paying attention.

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And he was instead trying to snap pictures of myself and everybody else. Yeah. Okay. So I want to change the subject, but in a second, we're going to do some advertisement stuff, but in just a second, but I want you to think about this.

05:39

I saw a whole bunch of controversy going on Facebook. It got really serious. I mean, it got to the point where I thought it was going to come to blows over this thing.

05:48

What is the deal with you feeding, getting fed by Matt Slick? What is going on with this?

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I mean, it was, it was terrifying. I thought it was going to come to, there's going to be like a ninja battle thing going on and all that.

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I'm joking, by the way, for the audio portion, this is all facetious.

06:11

If you guys don't know, there's been a ongoing war with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport for, it seems like years now that Matt Slick has been trying to outdo him,

06:24

Andrew, by getting dinner for him. And then next thing you know, I see this thing, Oh, he got him. He got him.

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And I thought, Oh no, this is not going to go good. Yeah. Andrew still doesn't want to admit to it. So what happened was

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Matt actually, you know, Matt Slick is in the Boise area and he had a CARM meeting over, you know, on Monday after this following weekend.

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So two of his board members were staying with him all weekends and we invited them to come to the course as well to see the type of teaching we do.

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And, you know, Matt Slick is a guy who he is, he's not an evolutionist, but he's never studied out age of the earth stuff.

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So it gave us an opportunity to talk to him a little bit more about age of the earth. But anyways, he was there at the conference.

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We, I hung out with him most of the day, Saturday and Saturday evening after the conference was over, had a great time talking.

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I will say Matt Slick is a young earth creationist. He does believe in young earth. So I'm glad to see that.

07:19

So he's a biblical creationist. Exactly. So we're going to, we're going to get some articles up on his website here real soon.

07:28

That's I'll probably coauthor with him or something. So that his, his positions clearly delineated.

07:34

I'm on there, but so what you're bringing up is dinner. We, several of us went out to dinner. We went to Mongolian barbecue place and I viewed this as an official striving for eternity event on Saturday evening.

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I was there representing striving fraternity. So I was going to pay for Matt Slick's dinner as part of striving fraternity.

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Well, Matt beat me to the punch and Matt ended up paying. And so he, while in paying for my dinner, it really is imputed unto

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Andrew that, that he actually paid for Andrew for dinner.

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So, so that's what happened. I can see you go down that route. Yeah. That's yeah. Cause it was official strive fraternity.

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Matt beat me, ended up being paid for by Carm instead. So, so yeah, that, that counts.

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And, and I would say that if we take the votes on Facebook, most of the people would agree with me and Matt.

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Yeah. So that's what happened there. Yeah. And you know, but in all seriousness, before we get to, to Scott here one of the things we we've talked about earlier,

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I know you you're good friends with with, with Sean Waugh and you know, we, we are as well.

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Love Sean. Great, great brother. Solid guy. Theologically also I think has the right view in terms of the, the understanding of politically what we're supposed to be doing this

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November. And so we did a show with him back in, I want to say February or March with Sean.

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I'm going to plan on having him again sometime, maybe in October before the election. But I also received another phone call.

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Somebody else who is very much on the side of where we would sit is, is

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Chuck, Pastor Chuck O 'Neill. And so, you know, Pastor Chuck gave me a phone call,

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I don't know, three or four days ago now, because he saw comments I made on a Facebook thread. Like four years ago, there was some

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Christians who say, you know, I can't vote for, I can't vote for obviously Biden, right?

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I get that. They also say I can't vote against my conscious and vote for Trump. They don't like the lesser two evils argument.

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I think it's the correct argument. I'm not going to talk about that today necessarily. We're going to do that on some future shows coming up here soon.

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But having said all that, he was interested about a comment I made because like four years ago, there were people that were propping up a guy named

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Tom Hoefling for president. And they say he's a, he's an anti -abortion, an ardent anti -abortionist,

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Christian, all kinds of things. But the thing that disturbed me four years ago, when I was making the arguments for Trump, not really because I believe he's a

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Christian, I don't. But because I think he protects the Christian worldview better than the other main candidate at the time,

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Hillary Clinton. I feel the exact same way today, that he is the better of the two options to protect the

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Christian worldview. And he's electable. So that's why I think we as Christians need to vote for Trump.

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Having said that, Tom Hoefling was around, people said, you need to vote for him. He seems to be a standup guy.

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So the researcher in me decided to research Tom Hoefling. Nowhere on his page do you see where he goes to church.

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Nowhere on his page do you see what his beliefs are as a Christian, nothing. Like people could research me and it would take them all about 30 seconds to know where I go to church, who my pastor's name is, who my closest friends are.

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I mean, this is not, there's nothing hidden about this. People know my wife's not a heretic. They know what she believes.

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I mean, people know where we stand. Well, what's interesting about Tom is that we don't know where he stands.

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There's nothing that his page has labeled. So then

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I went and researched who his wife was, Sienna Hoefling. And boy, did

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I find out some interesting stuff. She's a Mormon. And when

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I told a few other people about this four years ago, and people started sending messages to Tom Hoefling, Tom refused to answer the questions, at least at the time.

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He refused to answer the questions. And then his wife's Facebook account got deleted, gone. And it remained deleted for several years.

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It wasn't until I saw somebody put something on Tom Hoefling backup maybe a month ago about running for president again, that I decided to research his page.

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Nothing has changed here. I researched Sienna's page. It looks like her

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Facebook was started back up again in May 2019. There's nothing prior to that. And she does nothing but pro -life, which is good, and Trump bashing, which is not

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Christian -like whatsoever. And so it's been interesting. And as people have been increasingly putting stuff pro -Tom

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Hoefling up, there's other guys who've been coming out saying the same things I have. One of them is

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Pastor Chuck O 'Neill. He saw my comment that I wrote in this one thread that his wife's a Mormon. He has an answer to that.

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And Chuck ended up calling me and he put out a letter today, this afternoon. So you saw that.

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I forwarded on a number of pages already. I think people need to read it. And if you're going to vote for Tom Hoefling, he needs to answer some questions.

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He says he's going to. One of our friends and brothers in the

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Lord, Mason Goodnight, who I respect greatly, he's a Hoefling fan.

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He contacted Tom Hoefling himself and spoke to him. And Tom says he's going to come out and answer all the questions that Chuck O 'Neill put into his letter, which addresses the same concerns

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I brought up, as well as many others. So I hope that that's actually going to be the case.

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And then we'll see what happens from there. It's a small world, I'll tell you that. It certainly is.

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Yeah, isn't it? Well, you don't know how small because my wife's family lives about 10 minutes, 10 miles or so away from the

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Hoeflings. He lives in Louisville, Iowa. And I've known Tom Hoefling for quite a long time through Facebook and through his first time he started going out, trying to run for president.

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And let's just say that the reputation, it could use some help in his community.

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Regardless of what everybody wants to talk about, about what, oh, I heard him say this, I heard him say that.

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You know, there's, it's a lot to be said for the people that actually know him. And I don't know that a lot of great information about him.

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I just know that the reputation as far as when I started looking into him, when he first started running, because I lived up in the area, was not the best.

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You know, it was a little, you know, of course, I mean, Trump's isn't the best either. But, you know, I guess my concern like yours is, if you're trying to look at the lesser of two evils argument, and you're trying to, you know, say, oh, well, we have to have a perfect candidate.

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You're not looking at a biblical perspective when it comes to the government issue. And we can talk about that all you want.

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I mean, brother, I don't know that you came on to talk about that one subject.

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So I don't want to, I don't want to monopolize your time on that. So. Yeah, no.

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And so I wanted to bring it up to the listeners to show that we do have more to talk about than just Pastor Mike Reed, actually cult leader

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Mike Reed, but that we are going to address this topic at some point in the near future on a couple of different shows.

15:08

So, so look forward to that. I think those will be some really good shows. Oh, I'm sorry.

15:15

That's what I was just about to say. Just before we jump in and get started, I do want to introduce everybody. This is

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Striving for Eternity. And we're, we're here with Striving for Eternity. If you want to join in and ask questions, brothers,

15:29

I assume that we're okay for opening up questions for anybody wants to ask questions. So if you want to ask questions, you can go to apologeticslive .com

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and just click the join in. And you'll have to go through a little rigmarole to jump in and we might be able to put you online here and, and have a discussion with you if you want to do that.

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Let's see. We've got bills to pay with the stuff that's going on with Striving for Eternity.

16:00

So just the outreach ministries and all the work that Striving for Eternity does, I want to invite you if you haven't, and if you've kept up on your, your biblical obligations to God first and his body of Christ as well, that if you can donate towards Striving for Eternity, we would love to see this ministry supported as much as possible, as much as you feel that God would lead you to do that.

16:22

And if you do it right, we'll give you a prayer cloth that's got a good blessing on it. I'm joking.

16:31

Oh, I had to put that in there. Double it. And I'll throw some, some holy water in it.

16:37

Oh man. Yeah. Some holy water. That'll work. That'll work. Fresh from the Catholic church. Thanks, Justin.

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So, you know, without further ado, I want to, to introduce a guest and a good friend of mine who, who

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I, I really enjoy talking to a lot and I look forward to working with a lot more in the future.

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And so anybody who's read my book, On the Origin of Kinds, if you've, if you've gone to page five,

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I think it is, and you see that there's five people listed in there who, who, who

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I had read the book ahead of time, not just for editing purposes, you know, grammar wise, but, but for the purpose of, of content making things, making sure things were buttoned up properly, that kind of stuff.

17:27

People I trusted for that. My guest is actually one of them. You see, you'll see his name listed in the book, beginning of the book as a, as one of the primary reviewers early on.

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It's my only claim to fame. I think you've got more than that. And that, you know, so where, where Scott and I met was, was it's been seven, seven or eight years ago now.

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It would have been 2014. 2014. So yeah. Okay. So six and a half years then, six and a half years ago.

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We met when Mike Riddle started his five -day creation training course that he does in the summertime.

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Fantastic training course. It's one where you're not only going to learn about creation and precept apologetics at a lay level and some other current topics in Christianity that we have known as apologists.

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You also will have to get up and give like four different presentations to which you're graded in giving.

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It's, it's, it's fantastic in terms of a course. And so that's where I actually met

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Scott was, was we, we were the attendees of that first ever five -day course way back in the day.

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And it was a wonderful time of learning. You know, we struck up a friendship.

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We had a lot in common and, and still do. So I, I've always said when, when people ask me who the best apologists are,

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I get asked this a lot when I go speak in churches and people expect me to say some of the big names that are out there, you know, that I, that I would take the such and such and so -and -so in my corner to be the top apologist.

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And I would say, you know what, that's not true. You know who I would take? I would take the nobodies. I would take people that know how to do this on a street level any day of the week.

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And, and that's some, that's who Scott is, right? One of those guys that's, that can just do it at street level, understands precept properly.

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And yeah, so, so I'm very happy and honored to have Scott here. So I don't know if you want to tell the audience a little bit about yourself here.

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Well, I'm good friends with Anthony and I'm honored to be here.

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Basically I accepted Christ when I was in, about 10 years old.

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And from the time I accepted Christ, I was kind of like the soldier in scripture that said, Lord, I believe help my unbelief because I always had some questions.

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And, and so when I got into junior high, I had a youth pastor basically that introduced me to, to the works of Josh McDowell and C .S.

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Lewis. And so I just devoured that material because it was, it was the kind of thing

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I was asking questions about. Can I trust the Bible? You know, does this make sense? Or am I just jumping off a bridge, you know, with a blind faith?

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And so I studied those, those materials starting in junior high and well into high school.

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And when I got into college, I was introduced to the Institute for Creation Research.

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Our church at college had one of their speakers come and I had no idea that there were

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PhD scientists out there doing research, you know, of thinking

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God's thoughts after him, of trying to, you know, understand how God was operating, making the world operate.

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And so I began to devour those materials. So if you don't mind me cutting you off,

20:57

Scott, we're going to get into some of this apologetic stuff. What I, what I really want you to talk about right now is, is you, you, you're a drummer, a professional drummer for a pretty famous guy, especially for people that are into the country music scene.

21:14

Yeah. So I, I've played drums ever since I was a little kid and I went through the grade school or grade, the public school program of music playing a band, marching band, jazz band, all those things.

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And went to college and, and studied jazz as a drummer. Went to North Texas State, which is one of the top jazz schools in the country.

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And I actually went there, actually got a jazz performance degree and moved to Nashville and worked as a full -time musician here for over 26 years.

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And one of my main, I've had two main accounts while I've been here in Nashville. One of them has been with a big band jazz band, which did a lot of convention work and concerts and things.

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And I played four presidential inaugural balls in a row. Well, hold on a second.

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You played in four presidential inaugural balls? Yeah. Yeah. I played for Bush Senior, both

22:18

Clinton inaugurations and W in 2000. That is fascinating.

22:24

I didn't even know that about you. That's fascinating. Yeah. Of course. So like in Washington, DC.

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In Washington, DC, downtown, I got, when, when W was elected, I went around looking for souvenirs on the streets from the street vendors.

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The last thing I got, I got one of the last t -shirts that it was a

22:45

Gore Lieberman and the shirt said sore loser man. I've got that t -shirt hanging up downstairs.

22:54

Oh, that's great. Yeah. But yeah, so it was an honor to do those kinds of things.

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But the other main account after I moved to Nashville was I ended up playing with a guy named

23:10

Ray Stevens, which he's a comedy guy. Older folks would, would recognize him immediately.

23:18

Probably younger. Young. Yeah. Just a little bit.

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Ray Stevens like constantly. Yeah. So, so meet his drummer.

23:33

Pleasure to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. So I've, I've played with Ray.

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I've done all of Ray's Nashville shows. And I say it that way because he spent a couple of, he did two trips out to Branson, Missouri, where he did a sit down and I didn't play for him then.

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Cause I didn't need to move to Branson, you know? But he always came back to Nashville and I've done all his

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Nashville based shows. So for over 30 years, cause I started when I was two, you know?

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So that's a joke by the way, Tristan. Well, the thing is, is, is

24:09

I was about two when I started listening. So anyways, and I, and I still play,

24:17

I still perform for Ray. Now he has built his own showroom in Nashville. It's called the

24:22

Cabaret spelled R -A -Y cause it's Ray Stevens Cabaret. And until COVID hit, we were doing, you know, over a hundred shows a year on the weekends right here in Nashville, which is just the ideal thing for a musician.

24:38

I haven't had to reset my drums for over two years now, you know? Wow. Yeah. So that's been a lot of fun and he's been very kind to me and he's just been wonderful to work with.

24:49

So. Yeah, that's, that's great. So, so Mariana is asking, what is the major topic tonight?

24:56

Well, the major topic is we're talking apologetics with, with our guest, Scott Weckerle tonight.

25:02

And if anybody has any questions specific about apologetics, please type them in or come right into the

25:08

StreamYard link and you can come on and ask live at that point. So as I, as I tell people about Scott and drumming for Ray Stevens, almost everybody has the same response as what

25:20

I just read here a moment ago is is, is that the squirrel guy sings about the squirrels?

25:29

Mississippi Squirrel Revival. Yes. We play that song every night, every show I've done with Ray.

25:35

We always finish with it's me again, Margaret, Mississippi Squirrel. Everything is beautiful and the street is the closer.

25:42

So I, I kind of know those by heart. Yeah. Yeah.

25:48

That's, that's great. Yes. So, so let's, let's jump into apologetics.

25:55

Of course, unless somebody has questions about Ray Stevens, please feel free to type in, but, you know, you, hey,

26:03

Brad, good to see it tonight, bro. So, you know, you had a very similar to me,

26:09

Scott, is that when I first got saved quickly, somebody shoved more than a carpenter by Josh McDowell on one hand,

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I had CS Lewis, who now I know to be a heretic, but had a lot of good, interesting things to say, but CS Lewis is mere

26:23

Christianity shoved in my other hand. And, and I read both of those books, really enjoyed them.

26:30

But, and obviously you enjoyed a lot of that stuff too. Oh yeah. Back in the day, but you know, we've both kind of gone through a change around six or seven years ago in terms of apologetics methods.

26:43

Yeah. Mine was actually about 10 years ago. A little earlier. Yeah. It, you know, of course, through the years

26:51

I had taught Bible studies and, you know, life groups and Sunday school classes and things, and, you know, had lots of discussions with, with non -believers and was always kind of frustrated with the discussions because it just didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

27:09

And so in 2010, the Mississippi scroll revival, he pulled it up.

27:15

Thank you. I absolutely had to. Is that actually going to play? I'm going to actually have to pull it back off real quick.

27:22

And then, okay. And in 2010, I heard,

27:28

I heard Dr. Jason Lyle present a live presentation he did, which was kind of a summary of his book called the ultimate proof of creation.

27:38

Yeah. And that, and that was my introduction to presuppositional apologetics.

27:44

And it really kind of turned my world upside down because, you know, I had been studying all of the evidential apologetics for most of my life, you know, it was my passion on the side.

27:56

And when I was introduced to presuppositional apologetics, understanding worldviews on how, you know, we all have the same evidence and we look at it differently because of our worldview.

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And that's how we come to different conclusions. And when I understood the presuppositions that go into a worldview and how to use that in a biblical manner, when we're sharing the gospel, it was, it was like the light bulb came on and it put all the evidential apologetics in its proper place.

28:26

And it finally all made sense. So we're going to dive into this one a little bit.

28:33

We, we did have Cindy ask us this question. Can you explain what that means?

28:39

Apologetics? Cause there's so many names. So, you know, so Scott, how would you define apologetics?

28:45

Well, apologetics, you know, it comes from the Greek word in the new Testament apology, which means to, to make a reasoned defense.

28:55

And so it's, it's the verse, 2nd Peter, right? 3, 15, 1st

29:02

Peter 3, 1st Peter 3, I get those mixed up, you know, where it says, sanctify, sanctify

29:09

Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense for the hope that is in you to anybody that asks of you, you know, with gentleness and respect.

29:19

And so apologetics is the term that we've coined off of the Greek word apologia. We're not making an apology for anything.

29:26

We don't have to apologize for anything unless you're rude to somebody, you know, but that's why we do it with gentleness and respect.

29:33

That's right. So that would be the term apologetics. It's making a reasoned defense.

29:38

It's kind of like you know, the idea of a lawyer in a courtroom, he's going to defend his client and he's going to give solid reasoning behind his defense.

29:50

So that's apologetics. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Good summary of it.

29:56

And so in this apologetics, you know, you and I both spent time, you know, obviously not even knowing one another, but spent time as we, as we make our apologetic, make our defense of the faith.

30:09

Yes, John, you should show up with some chickens. That always makes the show better. At KT and Jesus, is

30:18

Andrew actually watching this? He, he comes in and out as, as we have this on, he's, he's still very busy in terms of his unpacking.

30:27

His move was just made complete a little over a week ago now and is moved to Pennsylvania.

30:33

So, so he's moved and he is, he's unpacking. He's trying to get up his computer set up for his work.

30:43

Now he has his personal computer up already, but the work computers are, are a lot more intense in doing so.

30:51

So he's been working on that, which is why you get two good looking guys and Justin, myself, and, and Scott as well to, to hold down the show for Andrew.

31:02

You got, you got two incredibly tan guys over here and a guy that looks like a white sheet of paper on the inside.

31:12

No, I actually just need to rub in some dirt or something. I'm outside all the time and I never get as dark as you do.

31:21

This is my darkest in a while. I've been outside a lot. I think COVID has gotten me outside a lot. You know, everybody still buying into this ridiculous coronavirus.

31:32

I've got to play this. So this is, we have to give a commentary so that we don't get in trouble by YouTube.

31:40

This is the Mississippi Squirrel Revival. And for those that don't know it, this, this squirrels were not harmed in the making of this video.

31:51

I want to, I want to hit this and let it, let it play for a second. Just so everybody gets a taste for it. This is how you do apologetics guys.

32:30

Knuck him in the church. I said, way back in the very last few, showing him to my good buddy,

32:37

Hugh, when that squirrel got loose, went totally berserk. What happened next is hard to tell.

32:44

Some thought it was heaven, thought it was hell, but the fact that something was among us was plain to see.

32:49

Oh man, there he is.

33:19

Some thought he had religion, others thought he had a demon heart, thought he had a weedy delusion through the moon.

33:26

He fell to his knees to plead and beg and that squirrel ran out of his wretched leg, unobserved, to the other side of the room.

33:35

All the way down to the amen pew, where's that sister birthed a better view. I always wanted to marry her.

33:44

Oh wow. Oh, we gotta stop. Yeah, we might, we might get past the copyright.

33:52

Yeah, you don't want to, don't go, go past the copyright. That's two minutes. Oh man. We have to critique the video, don't we?

33:59

So that we're still legal. Well, we, we did. We just said that the, the squirrel was, um, um.

34:05

The antichrist. Yeah. And actually the, the guy, uh, the, the guy whose cover all as a squirrel ran up.

34:14

Yeah. That's, that's his name is Buddy Kalb. And he's actually the guy who wrote the song for Ray.

34:20

Oh really? Yeah. That's Buddy Kalb. He's, he's a songwriter, wrote that hit for Ray. And, and Buddy is a dear

34:27

Christian brother. Loves the Lord. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's cool.

34:32

It looks like Sean ended up coming out. He says his personal favorite is the Shriners convention. I don't know that one.

34:38

Yeah, that one's, that one's, that one's kind of wild too. Boy, where have you been? Yeah, that was kind of wild too.

34:44

Well, man, I'm really glad to meet you. It's, um, you know, uh, I've listened to a lot of Ray Stevens music.

34:51

So, I mean, this, this is a whole different topic. I know, but you know, just, just to get to know, know somebody of your stature and celebrity status.

34:59

Well, see, I'm not a celebrity. I sit behind the guy who's a celebrity. That's right.

35:05

Yeah. Well, um, Somebody has to ask for the drummer's signature, right?

35:11

Oh, from time to time. Yeah. So that's good. I've got a question. I've got a question.

35:17

So, and dealing with apologetics, um, you know, what is the, what is the route that you take when you're talking to a, a, an, uh, a nominal unbeliever?

35:31

You know, you're talking about somebody that, uh, you know, not your Dawkins or your Hawkins or anybody else like that with a celebrity name that's committed to their atheism, to their agnosticism.

35:42

Give me a route that you take when you're, let's say, you're just talking to somebody that said, do you believe in God?

35:48

And they say, well, maybe there's a higher authority, but I don't think so. And, uh, I don't know that I've ever seen any evidence for God, blah, blah, blah.

35:56

Yeah. So, so give me a kind of a route that you might take what you're talking to someone. Um, I'm not sure what the scenario there.

36:11

Um, so if somebody comes up to you and, uh, and says, I, you know,

36:16

I don't believe God exists. Yeah. Cause I mean, you're going to hear that.

36:22

And I guess the reason I would come from that question is, you know, that that's the life we live in.

36:29

That's the America we live in. That's the world we live in where they've without any, any, um, any real insight into study, any real research in the study, of course,

36:41

I mean, I, I mean, I don't know if you are, but kind of as a Calvinist, I kind of expect, um, that they're not going to believe, you know, as a biblical

36:50

Christian, I expect that they're not going to believe because of a hard heart because of that heart, because they're rebelling against God from the get go.

36:58

I mean, I believe that comes down from Adam and onward, but even regardless of that, we have the, you know, the apologetic argument, you know, first Peter three 15 to give a reason for the hope.

37:09

And so when I, when, when somebody comes to me and they ask, you know, so what's your evidence for the existence of God?

37:15

And, and they're asking an argument, they're asking for a reason for the hope and they say, well,

37:22

I don't believe in God. Can you, can you, um, show me some, some evidence or can you give me a reason why

37:31

I should accept, you know, this hope that you're talking about? So maybe you could kind of elaborate on something along those lines.

37:40

Yeah, well, um, thinking presuppositionally, you know, we know from Romans one that everybody knows

37:47

God, you know, Romans one tells us that, that he has made himself known to everyone.

37:55

And so, um, when they say they, they don't believe in God, they're, they're actually suppressing the truth of what they do now.

38:04

And we also know from Romans two that God has written, uh, you know, uh, his law into their conscience.

38:10

So the moral law. And so, um, one way to, to look at that, you know, they say, well,

38:18

I, I don't believe in God. And, um, um, so one way to go at that is to, is to just ask them, um,

38:33

I just drew a blank. That's it. Well, I usually like, I like to ask him about the building behind him or, or anything.

38:40

Right. And I think that's, what's fascinating about, about presupp, like one of the things you really, that you really turned me on to was the, the

38:49

Stein -Bonson debate or Bonson -Stein debates back in the day, because this is a, this is a guy that clearly was trying, in a number of ways,

39:00

Stein was, was trying to establish good and evil, right. With, within his, within his, within the debate and Bonson took on a task for that.

39:10

And so why, why did he do that? Why did he take him to task? Well, he took him to task because, um, you know, he was making lots of knowledge claims that, uh, that his worldview couldn't back up.

39:24

Um, you know, the fact, um, you know, and just like Jason Lyle's ultimate proof of creation, the ultimate proof of creation of God's existence is that if God did not exist, we couldn't know anything.

39:40

You know, um, you know, the famous, the famous saying that, uh, you know,

39:45

I think therefore I am Jason Lyle, you know, turns that around and says, but God says,

39:54

I am, therefore you think, yeah, because we can't, you know, if God didn't exist, there was no way we could know anything.

40:04

You know, if we came from, from goo to the zoo to you, then you start with all this material matter and then somehow you have to get consciousness, you have to get the immaterial and you can't get immaterial things from material things.

40:25

It's, it's a big, it's a big jump that can't happen. And so you have to start with the immaterial

40:31

God to end up with immaterial things like a conscience and, uh, you know, laws of logic, laws of morality, rights, any of those things that we all know exist and we use all the time.

40:46

And that's, and that really is, is how we should sum up precept, um, to anybody as we teach it, right?

40:53

It's that there is the, the, the primary issue, why we use precept, the primary issue of the unbeliever is that, is that yes, in a materialistic worldview where nothing, nothing that's out there, um, can be out there other than the result of material things and chemical reactions that are just banging, right, for billions of years, that that materialism can only breed more materials and that it can't account for the, the immaterial, right?

41:22

That's the issue is you can't have material account for the immaterial. And so you can't have an evolutionary worldview account for the immaterial, like you just said, laws of logic, ability to reason, ability to trust our senses, absolute morality, knowledge, truth.

41:38

I mean, the list goes on. There's, we list hundreds of things that you can't account for in a purely materialistic worldview.

41:46

Um, on that, I, I think a chicken man is on. Yes. Let's hear the, the chicken.

41:54

Oops. Hold on. Let me get him on it. I believe he's, he's muted. All right, here we go.

42:02

Here's one dog. Oh wait, that's, that's not a chicken. Oh, he ate a chicken. He ate the chick.

42:08

I can't believe you. Oh, there he is. Oh boy. So this is living proof that God exists.

42:17

We have a chicken and a dog holding an egg. Chicken dog.

42:27

The missing link. Wow. So which one is

42:34

John's closer relative, the chicken or the dog? Now you're just being mean.

42:43

No, I like chickens. I wish I had chickens running around my yard. Hey honey, what's for dinner?

42:49

Uh, hold on one second. There's a dance for this chicken too.

42:56

I remember that dance. Yeah. So people are bringing up by Jason Lyle's fractal equations.

43:04

Yes. That's, that's really cool. I was a math and chemistry double major in school. I knew about fractals back in the day. It's a, it's fascinating to see, to see fractals and the way that they're kind of built into mathematics.

43:18

So it's a, it's a really neat presentation. The, uh, Bonson, this is a, this is a great quote.

43:25

Yeah, there we go. I suggest that we can prove the existence of God from the impossibility of the contrary.

43:31

One of my favorite quotes. Um, great quote. It's one that, uh, I never bring up when

43:37

I'm teaching precept because there's a lot of words in there that can confuse people. So you have to explain that quote a little bit.

43:43

It goes over everybody's head. It does. Yeah. So I don't, I've learned not to use big words anymore.

43:50

And I'll tell you, anybody who's listening, who wants to learn how to teach at some point, get rid of the big words in your vocabulary.

43:58

That's really important. You know, in, in all these years as a dentist, I never used the big clinical terms for patients.

44:06

I would break it down into really simple words. And I, and I use those words all the time. So even when I'm among my colleagues,

44:12

I use the simple words. I avoid all the clearer words. They probably look at me like I'm a schlep or something, but, uh, but I do it on purpose because I want people to actually understand what you're saying.

44:21

C .S. Lewis was a big fan of that too. He said he hated words of more than two syllables. He wanted simple language with great analogy.

44:30

Yeah. Which is probably why he didn't believe in the atonement because it's three syllables. Ouch. Oh man.

44:39

Every song is funny. These things come into my head. It's not often. Well, you just quoted

44:46

Bonson there. And I, I, I mean, I've read a lot of Bonson. I really enjoy the discussion and, and whatnot.

44:53

And, you know, presuppositional apologetics from the Ventilion sector sector, you know,

44:58

Andrew or Anthony, I'm sorry. Um, you know, you and I talked about this a little bit and, um, I, I, I lean towards, you know, more of a

45:06

Clarkian point of view. Um, so when I'm doing, you know, presuppositional apologetics, go ahead.

45:13

A Clarkian. Yeah. Not in my vocabulary. I know, but, but you, you said you're, you've got the doctor.

45:19

That's right. You're a pretend doctor. Exactly. So, so he's got a doctorate in two, two, two syllables, uh, language, language usage.

45:29

But, um, but if you think, the, think about it,

45:35

Clark is less than what Van Teel.

45:40

So you got less. So we're, we're doing much better. So think about this when I'm talking with someone and they say, can you prove, give me some evidence for the existence of God?

45:50

I don't have to go. And I, and I do use, uh, every bit of the presuppositional apologetic approach, but I also,

45:57

I tend to, to want to, because we are so, uh, tied in as biblical

46:04

Christians tied into the word of God is the final inerrant authority and will not let up on that.

46:11

I can go. Yes, I can prove the existence of God. Genesis one, one, you see in Genesis one, one, it says in the beginning,

46:19

God, he didn't give you an argument for God. He gave you a factual statement about God.

46:25

And he gave his own evidential proof in his own factual writings about himself.

46:32

And he didn't ask your opinion if you like it or not. He said the way he did everything, the way he did it.

46:38

And this is one of the reasons why I'm a sixth day creationist is the fact that he claimed about how he did what he did and when he did it.

46:46

And he didn't ask us for our opinion. And so when I talk to the, the professing atheist, of course,

46:54

I always find it funny that I meet a professing atheist that used to be a believer. They used to believe in God.

47:00

They used to be a Christian. And I always go back to, so when did you change your axiom?

47:09

Genesis one is an axiomatic statement in the beginning, God, that is the foundational axiom for all existence and all life.

47:19

When did you change your axiom? So that's where I kind of like go to this a little, you know, just kind of for the information as we're talking about that.

47:30

What would you say to someone that says, well, okay, but if God is, if God is, if God is real and he does exist, then why would he allow all this evil stuff to happen?

47:44

I know where you're going to go, but I'm just trying to lead the conversation. That's leading the witness.

47:50

Yeah. I know, but yeah. Something I've discovered with that is, is a lot of times it's, it's wise to, you know, before you answer the question, because it's pretty easy to answer, but to ask the question, you know, is there a specific reason you've asked that question?

48:08

Because a lot of times it's somebody who's hurting exactly and going through something. And so we don't want to present, we just don't want to give out, you know, a cold mathematic equation kind of thing when somebody's hurt.

48:21

And so we want to take that into account and part of the gentleness and respect of, of, you know, defending our faith.

48:29

So, but that being said, the existence of evil, how did you phrase that again?

48:39

Just say something along the lines of, and I've heard it said many different ways, but I'm going to ask it this way. If, if God exists, then how could he allow evil or why does he allow evil into the world?

48:50

Yeah. Yeah. There's several ways to go about that. One of the, the easiest ones is that if God did not exist and it's, it's a totally, you know, random chance universe, then where do you get a standard for good and evil?

49:10

Because, because if everything has just been, you know, from the goo through the zoo to you kind of thing, we're just all rearranged pond scum.

49:20

And so at that point, what difference does it make what happens to this piece of pond scum or, or this one over here, you know, there, there is no, there's no foundation.

49:29

There's no standard for absolute right and wrong. And therefore there can't be any evil. It comes down to personal preference.

49:36

Right. That's right. Which is completely arbitrary. One thing I'll say is that I think that, you know, what we're seeing as a product, you know, socialism and Marxism, communism as well, these isms, they are a by -product of an evolutionary teaching and anti -God theology because they've, they've made nature their

50:00

God. And so they've made nature, their God, and they're beholden to no one but themselves.

50:07

And, you know, of course we know their God is, you know, evolution. We know that their, their preachers are

50:13

Darwin and all the other ones. But their apologists and the ones that carry out the will is the people that we're seeing today that are being taught the, the doctrine of the anti -God theology.

50:29

And, and it is a theology. It is that there is no God, but that our

50:34

God is nature and we are beholden to it. So we must support it. We must uphold it. We must defend it.

50:40

You know, that's why you're seeing all the things going on today. In my opinion, that you're seeing in this, in this society is destroying itself because they denied

50:49

God, they've turned their back on God and their God is literally the

50:55

God of this, this world. It's literally the world. Yeah. To the point that they, that they will have, you know, they will put nature or animals ahead of human beings.

51:06

Romans 1. Exactly. Yeah. So actually, yeah. So let me actually quote that, right.

51:12

Because, you know, we all go to Romans 1 verses 18 to 20 to show that everybody knows the true

51:18

God that despised creation and the things we've made. Those who don't profess him, suppress the truth about him and their sin.

51:25

They're, they're going to be held without excuse. Right? We all, I think we know that we talked about that on this show a lot, but if you keep on reading, starting in verse 21, it says this for, although they knew

51:35

God, right? God is saying for, although they knew they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened, claiming to be wise.

51:46

They became fools and exchanged the glory of the moral God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

51:55

So we literally see right there when they don't worship God that we're still made to worship. So when you don't worship

52:00

God, you end up worshiping something else in it, worshiping something in the creation. And, uh, and yeah, so we, we see that Romans 1, and while this is probably topic for another show, it's, it's not by mistake that when that happens in a, in a nation, when people have, have suppressed the truth about God and started to worship other things like nature, what ends up happening next is they start to,

52:29

God gives them up to the lust of their hearts, to impurity, dishonoring themselves, dishonoring their bodies among themselves.

52:36

We continue to Romans 1. And what do they do? They, they end up going into sexual morality and homosexuality.

52:42

And that literally starts the entire cascade to being turned over to a completely debased and seared conscience.

52:52

So, yeah, it's, it's, it's incredible to, to watch this. And it's really, really bad to watch this happen in our country right here.

53:02

Well, you know, what I, what I find is amazing is that the atheist, the agnostic, the

53:08

God -hating former believer, you know, uh, Dan Brown, all these guys, they have no argument in a, in a pop apocalyptic world, like we're seeing right now.

53:22

They have no argument for why things are right or wrong, good or bad, and why things should or should not be happenings.

53:29

I mean, you know, you can't make a, a should out of an ought. And so, so they don't have an argument for what's going on other than to say,

53:37

I just don't like it because they forfeited the truth about almighty God. And they've, you know, take, you know, as, as John said a minute ago, they taken an, an approach that says that they are, um, that they're, you know, they don't have, they don't have a standard, uh, what is it?

53:58

Subjectivism. Thank you, John. I saw it in your eyes. Subjectivism is, you know, they have a subjective argument that says, you know, my opinion is valid, but then it makes no sense to say that, that, that there, there is an absolute right and wrong.

54:15

And so they're, they're living it out. Yeah. Well, what it comes down to is, is the fact that, you know, you asked him, well, why is it wrong?

54:26

Or how do you, hi, how are you doing? I just fell on my butt. Flaming on the chickens.

54:33

I think he was attacked by the chickens are pushing me around.

54:40

Mutant Kung Fu chickens, huh? Yeah. Did you see the size of that chicken? I couldn't believe it.

54:46

I mean, KFC would be really impressed by the size. Oh, you guys. Ray Stevens has a song called mutant

54:55

Kung Fu chickens. You should look that one up on YouTube. That's pretty funny.

55:06

Now I lost my train of thought. Um, so anyways, usually, uh, what happens,

55:12

I hope they clip that out. I really do. Yeah. We're going to clip that right out of there.

55:18

And we're probably going to put that in with no babies. Anyway.

55:27

Uh, what I was going to say is that a lot of the times they'll, whenever they are pushed to,

55:34

I mean, when you ask them, it's like, well, why is it wrong? Or how do you know that it's right? Or how do you determine what's, uh, what is wrong and right, uh, objectively.

55:49

And they will always deny that whole claim about being, there's no such thing as an objective morality.

55:56

Um, and then usually they go by, well, whatever society says, well, first of all, that's as a fallacy of ad populum.

56:08

Um, you can't, you know, society can't decide that because at one point it was totally legal to have slavery, or it was also, uh, justifiable to kill

56:22

Jews. So, I mean, and that's what the majority of the people said, and I hate to bring up the whole

56:27

Hitler argument, but yeah. Um, that's usually what, uh, it comes down to.

56:33

And it usually, you know, shuts them up a little bit because you can't, uh, they can't point to an objective source.

56:43

They never can. I mean, they, they, all they can say is it's my preference. It's wrong because I don't feel, uh, that it's, uh, it doesn't,

56:54

I, it's wrong because I feel that it is. And, and that's, that's what it comes down to.

57:00

And, and, and so like, just what Jeff Durbin would always say, uh, you know, who was a

57:06

Vantillian or who is, uh, he said, uh, so what, you know, what's, what's wrong with that?

57:14

Why is it, uh, acceptable for a, uh, for Stardust to bump into another

57:23

Stardust? You know, what, what are you going to do about that? I mean, it's, it, it, it really does get them to stop and think,

57:31

I hope, uh, that their position has no foundation whatsoever. Amen.

57:37

Well, what would you guys say about the whole Stardust issue? I mean, you guys have heard, I mean,

57:42

I'm sure you guys have heard, uh, several of the different, uh, uh, atheist thinkers that they, they try to now say that, you know, that you are literally

57:51

Stardust, you know, who was it that said you had Stardust from one star in one hand and then the other one, you know, don't think

57:58

Jesus, don't think Jesus they died for you. Think the stars. Yeah. Wasn't that Lawrence Krauss? That was

58:03

Lawrence Krauss. Guys, when I heard that, you know,

58:08

I actually was doing an apologetics teaching at church and I actually said,

58:14

I will guarantee you before too long, uh, he's going to be exposed as doing something that would be blatant, outright sinful and is the reason for, and it did, it showed up within months that he was, you know, doing what sexually immoral stuff with his staff.

58:31

And, uh, you know, it was a me too movement kind of, you know, brought that stuff to light. So I mean, maybe that's not real bad that we got something out of it.

58:40

Yeah. So, so I, I have an apologetics thing here. Um, where did it go?

58:47

So KT and Jesus, um, I hope you aren't badly hurt to John. So I just want you to know if you weren't able to watch, this is, this is the unwritten code of guys.

58:56

You first see if he was hurt. The moment you realize he wasn't hurt, then you're allowed to laugh.

59:02

So once you see the other guy laughing, then you know he's okay. Yeah. We saw him fall and then he started laughing.

59:08

His face turned red and then we knew he was fine. Yeah. And so, now, now we can make fun of the chicken man, the atomic apologetic chicken man.

59:18

That's, that's the name. Injuries for pride don't count.

59:25

Those don't work. Those don't count. So John or Justin, do you have any questions for, for Scott before I start asking him a few?

59:36

I'm going to let you go ahead and ask some and I'll think of some questions. I got one. Yeah, I got one for Scott.

59:42

Um, you know, Scott, uh, first of all, thanks for showing up. I really do appreciate the time and, uh, to kind of break this down.

59:49

Um, a lot of the times, whenever I come across an atheist, you know, basically my foundation, my, my biblical start, my axiom is going to be the word of God.

01:00:00

Now the, the problem is, is that they won't agree with that, with that foundation.

01:00:06

How, uh, how in the world can we convince them of that?

01:00:13

I mean, basically, you know, they'll always dismiss anything that comes from the word of God. If you, if you, you say, well,

01:00:19

I get that from the Bible or God says that, um, they're going to automatically dismiss it and just say, well,

01:00:27

I don't believe that the Bible is, you know, the Bible was just written by a bunch of men from the bronze age is what they always claim.

01:00:36

Um, so where do we go from that point? Well, um,

01:00:44

I've often said, you know, I'm sorry that you don't, you know, that you don't believe that God's word is true, but, um, you know, the things that are true are true, whether you and I believe them or not.

01:00:59

And, um, God has revealed himself to us, uh, to be the truth, you know?

01:01:05

And so then I just continue to use scripture because I'm not going to abandon scripture.

01:01:11

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Votie Bachum was asked that question, right? He says, you know, give them a

01:01:16

Bible verse. And he goes, what if they tell you they don't believe the Bible? Give them a Bible verse, right?

01:01:22

Like for him, that's always, give them a Bible verse. And I think there's a scriptural justification for this, right?

01:01:28

We have Hebrews 4, 12, you know, that the word of God is, is sharper than a two edged sword splitting soul from spirit bone from marrow.

01:01:37

God's word is what's effectual. And it's going to, it's going to either draw or repel, but it's always going to be effective.

01:01:45

And so we always trust God's word, whether they pretend that it doesn't exist or not.

01:01:54

Right. Um, and thanks. Those are great answers. Um, a lot of times though, they always will ask, okay, well, cite me a source outside the

01:02:05

Bible that is not, uh, that, that proves that Jesus existed.

01:02:10

And a lot of times I'll go to like I go to, uh, Piney, the, the, um, younger and younger.

01:02:20

And, you know, I go to the, all these outside sources. Um, and, and the funny thing is, is that the first thing they do is,

01:02:27

Oh, that's not good enough. You know, I won't accept that one. That's not, that's not legitimate enough.

01:02:33

And when it comes down to is it, it shows them their heart that they don't want to know the proof.

01:02:40

They don't want to see the proof. They want to continue mocking Christians. They want to continue mocking God. Um, and so I always wondered, you know, have you ever used outside sources or, or have you,

01:02:52

I know that it can be beneficial, but I think that the word of God is what, what cuts the soul, you know, the, yeah.

01:03:00

Right. Well, that, that, you know, a lot of times you're right. They're not really looking for answers to their question.

01:03:05

And a lot of times you answer the question, they'll just say, okay, well, but what about this? Can you do this?

01:03:10

You know? And, um, a lot of times it's effective to just say, so, you know,

01:03:16

I've, I can give you sources. I can give you, you know, we can talk about whatever documentation you want to, but if I answer all of your questions, will you bow down and worship him?

01:03:28

That's exactly what I was about to say. Yeah. And usually, usually they're going to, they're going to balk at that.

01:03:33

And sometimes they'll tell you, no, I would never do that. Well, then there's no reason to waste either of our time, you know, but that, that really brings out what their whole motive is.

01:03:44

Yeah. Are they open to the discussion or are they just trying to change your mind?

01:03:49

Right. Or change your mind or just waste your time and wear you down. Exactly. Exactly. One thing that, oh, go ahead.

01:03:56

I'm sorry. All the times that, uh, that I've asked that question, you know, how much evidence would it take for you to believe, how much evidence would it take for you to bow to me?

01:04:05

Every single time I've asked that question, I've gotten nearly the same response. And it's nothing to do with, there's not enough evidence, right?

01:04:14

Like, but at least they're honest with you right off the bat. So you got chicken, brown chickens.

01:04:28

One tastes different. Is that where you get dark meat from? Dark meat and light meat.

01:04:34

That's exactly right. I like the dark meat. It tastes better, in my opinion.

01:04:40

It's funny. Somebody, it reminds me of an old joke. What's the difference between a, an hamster and a gerbil?

01:04:47

And the answer is, I think the gerbil is light meat. You think or no?

01:04:55

Oh man. I'm not going to make any claim. Just like the

01:05:02

Asians. So one thing that I want to kind of walk through, I don't know if anyone can see this on my phone.

01:05:10

Yeah. I saw that. Yeah. Have you guys seen this sign around? Like I've seen them all over the country, everywhere

01:05:17

I've traveled to, if you just drive around neighborhoods. This sign comes up. And so I saw it again today on my way to meeting up with Scott here.

01:05:28

So I thought maybe we would walk through some of these things from an apologetic standpoint. So this person believes, it says, we believe

01:05:36

Black Lives Matter. So now Scott, we've addressed this a couple of weeks ago, a month ago, something like this.

01:05:43

What would you say if somebody said Black Lives Matter? Well, I would ask them to define what they mean, because that's a loaded term, because it has lots of potential meanings.

01:05:56

And so I'm very big on always trying to get them to define their terms, you know, because if you're just talking about human beings and lives matter, and just because they're black, their lives matter just like anybody else's, you know, then that's fine.

01:06:12

I got no problem with that. But when you're, there's an organization called Black Lives Matter.

01:06:18

And if you go to their website and look at their mission statement, what they believe and what they want to accomplish, you know, it's a

01:06:28

Marxist anti -Christian, anti -American organization is what it is.

01:06:36

And, you know, when that sign's in the yard, I don't know which one they're referring to.

01:06:41

I can take a pretty good guess most of the time. But, you know, I would, if I was talking with somebody and they said that,

01:06:48

I would want them to clarify what they mean. You know, and you bring up a really interesting apologetics point here, because, and this is really good for everybody listening.

01:06:58

I am very careful to not answer questions too fast, because I've learned a lot over the years, but especially that almost every question you get asked from an atheist is a loaded question.

01:07:11

Yeah. They're typically not honest with their questions. And so it's good for us to ask clarifying questions.

01:07:18

Make sure we understand exactly what they mean and exactly what they don't mean before we actually answer.

01:07:26

And so, yes, ask questions. I'd rather you ask, you know, if I'm training somebody to be an apologist,

01:07:31

I would say, ask a question every single time somebody asks you something. Just get into the habit of it so you know what you're actually answering.

01:07:40

And that's huge here, because you're right. Black Lives Matter could mean, could be a number of things. It is a loaded term.

01:07:47

And obviously, you know, this brings up something we talked about a month ago, is that this implies racism.

01:07:56

It implies the issue of black versus white. And in a secular worldview, the incorrect worldview, in a secular worldview,

01:08:05

I can understand why they would have racism issues. In a Christian worldview, we only have one race.

01:08:12

Like it's, this is a term that doesn't make any sense within a Christian worldview, racism. Because we have one blood, one race.

01:08:20

And so, you know, for us, as a Christian, when we answer this question, we have to be careful in how we answer it.

01:08:27

And we have to let somebody know that if you want me to answer about Black Lives Matter, let me tell you my position first as a

01:08:36

Christian, what God says. And then I can attempt to answer this within your incoherent worldview.

01:08:47

And so that's how I would address something like that. Yeah. And the implied racism is there, that's there is, we believe

01:08:54

Black Lives Matter, because obviously you don't. Exactly. Let me ask a question on that.

01:09:01

When you're talking about Black Lives Matters, would you make the statement or the claim, would you ask somebody, say, for example, when they're asking, you know, when they're saying, do you believe that Black Lives Matters?

01:09:13

I mean, I've heard that said many times, they'll jump in somebody's face and they'll say that. Would you lead off with something like, can you explain to me how any life matters or why does life matter?

01:09:27

Would you head that direction in an apologetic discussion? Again, yeah,

01:09:36

I mean, when somebody's yelling in your face, it's hard to kind of hard to do anything substantive, you know?

01:09:42

And so I would just default to saying, you know, what do you mean by that?

01:09:48

You know, what's crazy about your question, Justin, is that there was a picture. I don't remember who put this up.

01:09:54

It might've been Bobbie McCreary or another brother, but somebody put up a picture of, you know, of an abortion mill and the lady, one of those death squirts that was standing there was standing in front of the abortion mill, right in front of the door.

01:10:10

And there was a sign next to her. Guess what that sign said? Black Lives Matter.

01:10:16

Wow. Are you kidding me? This is insane. You know, we know the stats.

01:10:21

I think I talked about these a month ago too. And we did the Black Lives Matter show. You know, there's, out of all the babies that have been murdered since 1973, 43 or 44 % of them are black.

01:10:33

That's three times the average of what black people are versus, versus all people within society percentage wise.

01:10:42

So you think Black Lives Matter, and yet you're killing them at a rate of three to one compared to comparatively.

01:10:48

It's, it really is, it's, it's crazy. So, okay. Next one on the sign.

01:10:53

We believe Black Lives Matter. The next one is no human is illegal. Yeah.

01:11:01

That's, that's twisting, twisting the phrase.

01:11:06

Obviously they're referring to illegal aliens and the laws that we have on the books about coming here as a legal citizen or legally visiting a country as a foreigner.

01:11:17

And all countries have those laws, you know, but to phrase it, to say no human is illegal, implies that you're, you're, again, it's a loaded phrase.

01:11:31

It's implying that you think someone does not have the right to exist because they're illegal.

01:11:37

And that's, that's not what the laws of this country or any other country is about. It's about the, the correct way that, that the, you know, the powers the country has set up for someone to visit another country or immigrate to that country or whatever.

01:11:54

And so they're, again, making it a very aggressive loaded question to try and make you, you know, be the bad guy again, because you don't think these people have a right to exist.

01:12:09

And that's, that's not what the, the whole political debate is about. I want to say that coming from an apologetic standpoint, looking at the gospel, how can we divert or shift that vitriol and argument from their standpoint, their worldly point of view, because that's all they've got to focus on.

01:12:37

That's all they've got in their wheelhouse. Their entire wheelhouse is hate, anger, vitriol, bitterness.

01:12:43

And they're trying to pull us into that fight so that we just, we get down and dirty with them.

01:12:50

And we, you know, we, we lay aside the word of God. Now, with that in mind, how do you, how do you shift that argument, that discussion from Black Lives Matter, blah, blah, blah.

01:13:04

And then the next one, you know, nobody's illegal. I mean, I've actually heard pastors actually preach that, well,

01:13:11

Jesus was an immigrant and he was an illegal alien. And he went to Egypt. And, and so how can we say that?

01:13:18

And I actually heard that. And I was like, man, your exegesis is so bad. I don't even know if you know what the word means.

01:13:25

Please stop preaching. But how do you, how do you, you know, when you're talking with somebody, and I know it's a, it's a landmine and it's a war, a battle that we're in right now, but this is the battle we're in.

01:13:38

So being that it's, it's here, how do we, you know, help, you know, somebody to be ready to give that answer?

01:13:45

You know, say they, you know, tomorrow morning, they have, it's all going nuts again. Tomorrow morning, they have, you know, sick

01:13:52

John's chickens after him. That's what it is. The chickens tear him up. So how would, how would we give that answer?

01:13:57

Get somebody ready. Well, one day, one way to do that is, is to talk about how, you know, in God's eyes,

01:14:09

I mean, everybody is important in God's eyes. And I don't know the passage where Paul talks about, you know, there is no difference, slave and free and, and...

01:14:22

Yeah, well, and that really comes back to the understanding that everyone is made in the image of God.

01:14:28

Right. And so the separation in Scripture is, is not among races.

01:14:34

The separation, and this is interesting too. So Scripture does not speak of, of many races. There's one race.

01:14:40

Scripture does speak on the idea of different nationalities, ethnicities and whatnot.

01:14:46

Right. That's, that's a scriptural concept. And there are boundaries of nations. We see that in Scripture too.

01:14:52

So we, again, it's really bringing people back to what, what

01:14:58

Scripture says. And, and ultimately we have to trust what Romans once says that people, people know the true

01:15:04

God that exists by his creation. People, I think, I think even though people believe to a degree that, that they might be evolved from apes, that in reality,

01:15:17

I don't think anybody actually believes this deep down. Right. Deep down, I think they recognize we're different than the animals.

01:15:24

And it's only an extreme rebellion and suppression of the truth. They turn to idols, they turn to animals and whatnot.

01:15:32

And so I think it's our job to bring them back to gospel truth. Gospel centeredness in terms of how to view life.

01:15:40

And especially I like to be tongue in cheek. I like to point people back to the fact that if you believe in, in evolution, you don't believe in God's creating everything and designing everything.

01:15:52

And you don't believe that God designed humans distinct from everything else in creation.

01:15:57

If you don't want to believe that and instead believe in evolution, that means you have to believe that you had out of these, whatever they're apes or chimpanzees or whatever you want to call our, our forefathers, so to speak in the evolutionary lines, that you would have had four or five different monkey type species that arose some evolutionarily higher than others.

01:16:22

Look, and I'm sorry, but according to Time Life Books and a few other resources, or in many other resources back in the thirties, forties and fifties and earlier, white people evolved smarter and better than everybody else.

01:16:37

Oh, you're going to be in big trouble now. But this is what the scientists have said, right? I mean,

01:16:43

I agree. I mean, I'm not saying anything that it's not from my own heart. It's just from these resources.

01:16:50

Look at the subtitle of Darwin's Origin of the

01:16:56

Species. That's right. The Preservation of Favored Races, right? I mean, he bought into this and that was 100 years before Time Life Books came out with this stuff.

01:17:07

But this was a prevailing theory. And I don't even call it a theory. It's not a theory. It's a hypothesis. It's a joke, but whatever.

01:17:14

I mean, but it was around for several hundred years by the time Darwin's book came out that different colored people evolved differently, right?

01:17:24

And by the way, this is no different than the Mormon religion who, you know, the black people were the ones that were burned that didn't follow properly.

01:17:37

So, you know, this all comes from false worldviews.

01:17:43

And we need to call people out on this stuff. We need to call scientists out on this stuff. You can't pretend to believe in evolution and then somehow explain away what evolutionary hypothesis has brought about for hundreds of years in terms of the speciation of monkeys into better evolved people versus others.

01:18:03

I'm sorry, it's just you can't separate them. So, OK, let's move on.

01:18:09

So if anybody has any complaints, I'm trying to set this up for you. It's complaint at Andrew Rappaport slash

01:18:16

Anthony Silvestro striving for eternity. Yeah, but the danger with my rant is somebody could take that part out of context, right?

01:18:26

Just click that out and make it sound really horrible. So I better save this just for future use now, this whole show in context.

01:18:35

Otherwise, it might sound like the people that quote Philippians 4 .13 and Jeremiah 29 .11. I have the power to do anything.

01:18:44

Watch me fly. OK, so if anybody wants to come on and ask any questions,

01:18:50

I just want to remind you, Apologetics Live, join in there. You can come through that. We'd love to have anybody come in.

01:18:58

If you have any questions, comments, quips, arguments, complaints, or if you want to challenge any one of us, you know, if you're an atheist and you say, oh,

01:19:06

I've got a better argument or whatnot. We would love to have a discussion with anybody that wants to come in.

01:19:12

So please come on in. Yes, absolutely. And you know, there's supposed to be an atheist who wants to take me to task for my debates that I've done on this show in recent times and last year, who wants to prove microevolution, which

01:19:29

I don't have a problem with, but they want to prove how that proves macroevolution. So as long as they actually show up, this person is going to come on to the show the first Thursday of September, and we're all going to get a chance to discuss this issue.

01:19:44

So that should be a lot of fun there. So KT and Jesus wrote this, and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live in all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.

01:19:58

So thank you for pulling that up. And Scott, I don't know if you want to talk about this here.

01:20:05

KT also wrote a couple comments earlier. That's a people all came from the Tower of Babel and traveled.

01:20:10

So let's lay this out for people scripturally. Where did all the nations come from? So we see that in the beginning,

01:20:17

God created, right? We got six days of creation. Perfect. Adam and Eve, sin,

01:20:23

Genesis three. We see that Andrew's flying demon babies and stuff happened in Genesis six, and world is decimated by a flood.

01:20:34

All life dies, except those that are on the ark. So as Noah's coming off the ark with his family,

01:20:40

Noah's wife, their three sons and their three wives, eight people and all the animals come off the ark. God repeats now.

01:20:46

It says for the third time, gives them the dominion mandate. He gave it twice in Genesis early on, and they gave the dominion mandate now for the third time here in Genesis nine.

01:20:56

As they're coming off the ark, multiply, fill the earth, subdue it.

01:21:03

And what did they do instead? It seemed like they congregated somewhere. Yeah, and they built this tower.

01:21:15

I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly what their purpose was. To be like God, to reach

01:21:20

God. I guess to reach to the heavens or whatever. And God said, this is not a good thing.

01:21:28

And so he dispersed them, just divided them up and gave them different languages.

01:21:37

I mean, instantaneously had different languages and could not understand each other. And so they went off in their different groups of people and populated the earth.

01:21:51

Right? Yeah, no, perfect. So that's right. God came down, confused their languages, spread them all over. And this is literally the birth of difference.

01:21:59

Different religions, different nations, different languages that we literally can trace back to the tower of Babel.

01:22:09

Now here's what's fascinating too, because we often, and I know you've heard this too, Scott. We've often heard, and this is the answer right here, right?

01:22:18

We've often heard, well, you know what? All these religions and so many different societies and nations have a flood story, a flood account in them.

01:22:29

So many have accounts for Adam and Eve or some type of man and woman beginning being deceived by something like a serpent.

01:22:37

So many different nations have different accounts, have an account, maybe slightly different of a worldwide flood and an arc.

01:22:47

So where would all those have come from? From tower of Babel, right? I mean, this is, and obviously there's been one true recording of it all that has been preserved by God.

01:23:00

And then there's a bunch of other versions that are not right. Right, and they've been altered a little bit as they've been passed down and because God did not preserve them.

01:23:12

And so they've got, some of them got some pretty weird. Some weird ones, yeah. I mean, one of the arcs was just a cube, just a free floating cube.

01:23:22

Right, but... Well, that'd be messy. Yeah, wouldn't it be? That'd be bad.

01:23:29

I'd hate to be in that thing. Yeah. One thing, you're talking about the table of nations in Genesis 10.

01:23:37

I don't know if anybody's done any looking into it or not, but gotquestions .com,

01:23:43

reasonably a good source for a lot of things. I don't agree with them on everything, but they go through the table of nations in Genesis 10 and they actually discuss the fact that you have 70 nations that came out of the line of Shem, Ham and Japheth from Genesis 10.

01:24:02

And they look at 26 of the 70 were descendants of Shem, 30 of the nations were of Ham and 14 out of Japheth.

01:24:11

And if you think about the life expectancy of the first human beings on earth, you think about their life expectancy and you talk about how it is that we can biblically talk about where all the people groups come from all over the world as a verse to the evolutionary model.

01:24:36

And you start talking about the number of people groups and the number of offspring and other children and how many they're having, the population and whatnot that you see today.

01:24:45

It coincides with what you see with Shem, Ham, Japheth, Noah and his family and coming out of the ark and it just being eight families, eight people coming out of this ark.

01:25:01

And it coincides perfectly well, but it doesn't when you start talking about millions and millions of years of evolution that magically brought time plus nothing, plus chance creating everything.

01:25:18

And I've had the argument many times that in Big Bang cosmology, in evolutionary

01:25:24

Big Bang cosmology, you have to have many different Big Bangs to come to where you're at now.

01:25:32

You have to have an explosion of life after everything is magically come into being that perfectly fits that life.

01:25:40

You know, let's just say you had this explosion of life on earth and earth was a giant ball of fire.

01:25:47

How long are they gonna last? You know, then you have to have an intellectual explosion and then just a multitude of different things to happen in a random chance universe that happened without random chance, but was guided.

01:26:06

If you listen to the evolutionists, the atheists, how many times they tell you, but nature just knew, nature took the course, nature knew that it was gonna have to do this, nature figured out a way.

01:26:19

And you hear all of this baloney and you go, no, you figured out a way to speculate because you wanna suppress the truth and unrighteousness.

01:26:29

Yeah, that's right. That's good. Hey, so we believe Black Lives Matter. No human is illegal.

01:26:36

Oh, here's one of my favorite ones here. Love is, wait, hold on one second, love.

01:26:47

Okay, how do you define something by the same term? Love is love. Justin is

01:26:53

Justin. John's chickens are John's chickens. What does that even mean?

01:26:59

What does it mean? Yeah, love is love. Hmm, obviously this is a big one that is shouted for anybody who goes to homosexual parades.

01:27:11

You will hear this a lot. Love is love, love is love, love is love. What do they mean by that?

01:27:18

Well, obviously what they want us to understand is to see it from their way.

01:27:27

They want us to see that love is something that they should be allowed to do. So what they have is love and we should leave them alone because love is love, right?

01:27:38

Yeah, well, that's so blatantly false. You know, I love my wife,

01:27:46

I love my parents. I have three daughters that I love as well, but I do not love each of them in the same way.

01:27:54

In fact, I'd go to jail if I did. Yeah, yes you would.

01:28:02

And I mean, it's just so easy to point that out. No, I know, it's interesting too.

01:28:14

One of the things that I will do with them is I will point them back to how do you define love in the first place?

01:28:21

There you go, back to definitions. Right, what's the definition of love? We can get an idea of it as we read 1

01:28:27

Corinthians 13 and in other areas in scripture. But ultimately, and this is what

01:28:33

I point out to them, I said, the only way we can actually define love is presuppositionally.

01:28:38

We can only go back to what was going on between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from eternity past.

01:28:45

And that that perfect love between them is what we see a result of that we see in scripture.

01:28:53

And we see what God says is the greatest manifestation of that in 1 John 4, which is

01:28:59

His Son's death in the cross. Exactly. And so it's easy to use this line of reasoning with homosexuals as you're open or preaching or as you're just talking to one -on -one to say, look, this is what love is.

01:29:14

And God manifests that love in His Son's death on the cross for sin. You know what? That includes your homosexual sin.

01:29:21

You know, we can tie all that back together really nice. And I'll tell you too,

01:29:29

I know a lot of people are intimidated with the gay crowd, with homosexuals.

01:29:35

I will promise you that if you just get a chance to talk to them and their emotions, one -on -one or one -on -a -couple and their emotions die down a little bit, you can have great conversations with them.

01:29:48

And a lot of them will tell you, they recognize it's sin. Now, most of them don't care, but they recognize it's sin in God's eyes.

01:29:57

They know what God says and believes about it. There's others who are, what they would say, are trapped in a lifestyle that they don't know how to get out of.

01:30:05

I've had that. That's been told to me before too. I'm not sure how much

01:30:11

I believe it, but it's been told to me. Having said that, this is the issue, right? We go back to how to define love.

01:30:17

I think you were gonna say something, Pastor. I was just gonna ask, can you hear me? Yes. Okay. I was just gonna ask the question, when you're talking,

01:30:26

I heard Ray Comfort say that, you know, he doesn't address their homosexuality.

01:30:32

And maybe he does later on. I don't wanna say that blanket that he doesn't. But maybe he does later on.

01:30:40

So my question is, somebody tells you that they are homosexual. Do you address the issue?

01:30:47

Would you say that you address the issue? Personally, I figure they brought it up for a reason.

01:30:53

We need to talk about it. So, especially since the Bible does. So, but I, you know, maybe you have a different point of view on that.

01:31:02

Maybe you wanna talk about that for a minute. Yeah. Well, I'll say this.

01:31:08

What I don't do is I'm not gonna go up to somebody and just what

01:31:13

I would call poke them in the eye, right? So I'm not gonna right off the bat go right after the homosexuality, especially in a one -on -one conversation like that.

01:31:26

When I'm over there preaching, I'm gonna address it as sin as well as lots of other sins that people commit.

01:31:32

But in a conversation, yeah, you're not gonna poke them in the eye with that one sin right off the bat. Now, I'm always going to bring it up.

01:31:38

I don't believe we should leave it out. And so what Ray would say is that I witnessed two homosexuals the same way

01:31:46

I witnessed anybody else. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever lost it? Right, so he goes right on down his normal spiel, his own list.

01:31:56

So for me, I'll do similar, but I'm gonna get to homosexuality. I'm gonna talk about sexual immorality in general.

01:32:05

We can talk about lust because lust is something that is equal opportunity. It doesn't matter whether you're straight or something else.

01:32:15

So we can bring up lust no matter what and we can talk about sexual immorality and we can define sexual morality right then and there to talk about any type of sex outside of a biblical marriage, which is one man and one woman is sexual morality.

01:32:33

So I'll usually walk into it in this manner, properly explaining, and we'll always end up speaking on homosexuality.

01:32:44

So from your apologetic standpoint, why is homosexuality wrong?

01:32:51

Or what makes it wrong? I mean, what makes it as wrong or even more wrong?

01:32:58

Like say, for example, just role -playing just for a moment. Hi, I'm coming out as whatever and I think it might be right for me and I know a friend of mine who's,

01:33:12

I don't really agree with him, but he believes that pedophilia is okay. So what makes that wrong?

01:33:19

And why is it you want to attack us and not let us have what we feel is our lifestyle?

01:33:29

Now, disclaimer, I'm not, I'm just playing the role play part. So go ahead. Yeah, well,

01:33:37

I would go back to Genesis basically, saying that God created us male and female and he is the one who invented marriage that it's one man and one woman.

01:33:52

And anything, any sexual activity outside of that covenantal relationship, he has declared to be wrong.

01:34:03

And I mean, that's the foundation of it. And it's not a personal, it's not a direct attack on anybody else.

01:34:13

And I mean, I have, we all have the same problem. You talk about lust, we all have thoughts and things, things that we would like to do that we should not act on.

01:34:28

And so that makes us no different than homosexual, pedophilia, anything else.

01:34:34

It all falls in the same category because it's outside of the one thing that God has ordained sexual activity to be.

01:34:43

Okay, okay, so what you're saying is... I was going to also add that it goes against entirely what the creation of God is.

01:34:58

I mean, it goes against everything of God's creation is basically what it is.

01:35:06

And so very much what you just said. And then the funny is that they always will bring up, well,

01:35:14

Jesus never brought up anything about homosexuality. And then, well, then

01:35:19

I usually respond back saying, well, no, actually, he defined what marriage was when he was talking about divorce.

01:35:28

So, I mean, and I've had to bring this up many times where people will say, oh, well,

01:35:35

Jesus never talked about homosexuality. So it must be fake. No, he always pointed right back.

01:35:41

And he talked about sexual immorality in a general sense, just like you said, which encompasses all of that activity.

01:35:49

And the whole idea of that's a logical fallacy called the argument from silence.

01:35:56

That because Jesus did not specifically say the words I'm looking for, that homosexuality is wrong, does not mean that it was not important enough to...

01:36:07

That's what they'll say a lot of times. Why are you making a big deal out of something that Jesus didn't make a big deal of?

01:36:14

And that's an argument from silence. If you use that as a principle, there's a whole lot of things

01:36:20

Jesus didn't talk about. Show me where Jesus said specifically that rape was wrong or pedophilia was wrong or terrorism was wrong or all these things.

01:36:31

If you're gonna go down that path, then all those things have to be okay as well. Yeah, of course,

01:36:37

I would make the argument to them that the entire Bible is the Word of God, that Christ is the

01:36:42

Logos. So I would personally point back to that. I would point back to some of the passages that my friend

01:36:49

John in Florida, John McKeon's brought up Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 verses 9 through 11.

01:36:56

That's a fantastic passage, by the way, because this is a passage where Paul's right at Corinthian church and saying, and such were some of you, right?

01:37:05

But you were washed in essentially Christ's blood, right?

01:37:10

That you were washed of this sin. And so he's acknowledging that there were people in this crowd that once identified as homosexuals that now no longer identify that way.

01:37:21

So it's a fantastic passage for us to use. But you know, there's one other thing that's implied in this issue of homosexuality.

01:37:31

When they ask about Jesus or make the claim that Jesus never addressed this, is there something else we needed to talk about?

01:37:41

Is they're making an assumption, not only did Jesus not say something, but they're also making an assumption that this is okay.

01:37:51

Yeah, right? Yeah, so this goes back now to what we talked about earlier about standard of good and evil.

01:37:58

So we should ask them, what is the standard of good and bad in this world?

01:38:04

And now it goes back to God anyway. God is good. God gets a chance to define, right?

01:38:10

So this all gets packaged together really nice. Incidentally, for those of you who wanna know,

01:38:17

Jesus was challenged in Matthew 19 and parallel verse in Mark 10 by the

01:38:22

Pharisees regarding divorce and remarriage.

01:38:28

And those are the passages that Chicken Man was, John was talking about earlier, is

01:38:37

Jesus defined marriage and how did he define it? Well, something Scott just said earlier. He goes back and Jesus quotes directly from Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in his definition of marriage.

01:38:50

I'll put it on the line for you. Thank you. So yeah, it's all there for us. And I will also say this, for those of you who are in the

01:38:59

Cleveland, Ohio area, we are going to have... So the homosexual parade that normally occurs the first Saturday of June every year has been moved to September 12th,

01:39:11

Saturday, September 12th. And there's gonna be several people from my church and a sister church,

01:39:17

Pastor Austin Hetzler. So people from his church will be joining us.

01:39:23

And Mike Stockwell's gonna be driving back into town. He was with us for a couple of months. He's now left for a little bit to visit some other friends.

01:39:30

Yes, he's got other friends apparently. So Mike is gonna be coming back into town now,

01:39:37

Lord willing, and gonna preach with us on September 12th. So if anybody else is around or you wanna come up to Cleveland, need a place to stay, we'll set up an air mattress at our house.

01:39:50

And my wife doesn't matter. She doesn't care if we fill the entire house with people and she'll feed you all.

01:39:56

She has a great job with that. And we'll make sure you at least have a blanket and air mattress and we'll go preach all day

01:40:01

Saturday. So please come into town and bring some chickens.

01:40:10

If you could just let them go right inside the homosexual parade. So there's a parade.

01:40:15

And then when the parade, like the drop -off spot, the parade is in the homosexual festival, in downtown

01:40:22

Cleveland, in what we call public square, just this big grassy area. So yeah, you could let the chickens run wild in there.

01:40:29

And so how are they going to justify allowing this parade to happen, knowing that they will cause the people with the

01:40:40

COVID. We know how deadly it is. It's like, I mean, if you're within five miles, you don't have a mask on that's hermetically sealed and you're not in your car, you're not hiding in six feet apart.

01:40:51

We know that everybody that's in that area is going to die from COVID. So how are they justifying this?

01:40:59

Yeah, well. Sarcasm. Yeah. Maybe it's because they identify the peaceful protest.

01:41:08

Yeah. Oh, it's a peaceful protest. Yeah. Yeah. So Tom Boehm got one of our fellow church guys.

01:41:16

Good to see you. He's, it looks like he just joined in a few moments ago. Ethan, Anthony has been hanging out with Ken Ham too much.

01:41:24

I think that's a compliment. I'm going to take it that way. Not sure what he means by that. My accent's not as cool as his and I don't have as cool of a beard as Ken Ham, but I'll take it as a compliment.

01:41:35

Ethan, oh, you're going to be in Cleveland, Ohio next week. Well, then you should call me, get ahold of me and let's meet up at some point if you're going to be there for a little bit.

01:41:43

So I get back home, I think on Monday and I'll be home for a few weeks at that point. I think

01:41:49

Ed Scott's going to have to teach you how to grow one. Yeah. No, you know what it is, is you have to convince my wife to allow me to have one.

01:41:55

That's, he can grow it. He can grow a better one than mine, actually. I grow pretty fast. It's just, you know, when the wife says, when's it, when are you going to shave that?

01:42:05

That's the clue to get up to do it. So yeah, so I don't get,

01:42:11

I don't get to grow it too much. And John McKeon in Florida, I know you have an invite already.

01:42:19

So I hope you are going to fly up to Cleveland and spend some time with us and go out preaching. It'd be great to preach with you again.

01:42:25

We met John a couple, it's been two summers ago, right? Last summer at Ambassador's Academy.

01:42:31

You were on the team that was led by myself and Mr. Andrew Rappaport.

01:42:37

And we had a great time hanging out and whatnot. So yeah.

01:42:45

That's a big brother to you. Yes, yes. Who we, who, you know, all joking aside, we do actually miss a little bit, you know, it'd be nice to be popping in the show every so often.

01:42:59

Okay, let's back to our sign. We believe Black Lives Matter. No human is illegal. Love is love.

01:43:05

Now the next one, women's rights are human rights. What does that mean?

01:43:14

I'm just reading the sign. This is your guys' job to figure this out. Women's rights are,

01:43:21

I mean, are they, are they making sure we understand women are human? Yeah, obviously the surface reading of it is not what's intended.

01:43:30

Yeah, it's not, yeah. You know, women's rights is code for abortion.

01:43:37

Most of the time. Oh, okay, okay. I can see that. Yeah. Of course, then it goes back to if Black Lives Matters, does it mean it matters all the time?

01:43:45

You know, so if, if you're saying women's rights, talking about the abortive rights, didn't that just cancel out the top part?

01:43:53

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, that's what I'm thinking. And of course, then we have to go back to when is it wrong to, to murder a baby?

01:44:01

You know, when is it wrong to murder anybody? You know, are we talking, you know, subjectively that it's okay as long as we have a cause?

01:44:08

I mean, that's why the, you saw a truck driver just a few days ago, got yanked out of his truck, got beat almost to death.

01:44:16

And then a guy comes around and kicks him in the face, trying to kill him. I had a couple of reports that they did, but they, but he didn't.

01:44:24

You know, that one lady said, yelled out, all lives matters.

01:44:29

And she got shot and killed. I mean, you have police officers that are being blinded by lasers.

01:44:37

Because somebody's life matters. I can't figure this out. The moral argument here only with, only withstands scrutiny.

01:44:48

If there is a, an absolute moral standard that everybody equally has to submit to.

01:44:57

I, I can't, I don't understand this. It's, it's driving me crazy. Just to, to hear that, you know, that women's rights are human rights.

01:45:06

Is that what that says? Yeah. Women's rights are human rights. Okay. Right.

01:45:14

It really is strange, right? I mean, it's, it's vulgar. It's blasphemy. You know,

01:45:19

I'm sorry. I'm getting a little mad. You know, it's the whole idea that you have, you have, it's okay to murder these babies because my woman's right is more important than that baby's right.

01:45:30

But black lives matter. So it's, we have to protect all women everywhere as Harris, Kamala, Kamala Harris.

01:45:39

She said, we have to, we, that we have to protect all and every black life matters.

01:45:46

Okay. Then we're talking about shutting down these abortion clinics because they're murdering babies by the millions.

01:45:52

Yeah. We're talking about upholding life 100%. Yeah. But obviously they don't mean it because they've never protested in Chicago.

01:46:03

Oh, amen. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Here, now here's the real contradiction. Women's rights are human rights.

01:46:10

What if the aborted baby was female? Yeah. Ouch. That might be a problem.

01:46:19

So, well, they would say that it's not human. Yeah. Well, that's going to, that's going to contradict the very next statement on the side.

01:46:28

Yeah. So let's, let's actually, let's get to that in a moment. Two things real quick. So Ethan, Cedarville University, I'm like two and a half to three hours from Cedarville.

01:46:39

They're, that's like closer to Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm up in, up in Cleveland. Just got a text message from Justin Peters.

01:46:46

Oh. Who said that, asked me if I've seen this. So for those of you who know who this

01:46:55

Cervatus Christy guy is or Cervus Christy guy. Cervus Christy. He's been a real thorn in the side of a lot of people thinking he's exposing people for being heretics.

01:47:04

And he doesn't go to church. Hasn't gone to church in years. Thinks he's above church and pastors and any accountability.

01:47:13

Well, I got inside word already that there's going to be something major coming out about him on Monday by none other than Jordan Hall.

01:47:23

And so I know I'm privy to this, to what's going on. And this guy's been doing some pretty, not so nice things.

01:47:32

I mean, we know the nice, not, not nice things he's been doing to Brothers in Christ, right? In trying to call out

01:47:37

Justin and others. Wait, so Jordan Hall is releasing something about Cervus Christy?

01:47:47

About Cervus Christy. Or about Justin Peters? So he put an article out today. Okay, okay, okay.

01:47:53

Regarding, it was a very surface type thing about Cervus Christy today.

01:47:59

And talked about how Cervus Christy went after Jordan.

01:48:05

And somehow, as the story goes, somebody that Cervus Christy knows, is good friends with, that works with him, got into Jordan's inner circle, ended up threatening his wife, kids.

01:48:18

And Jordan had to take this guy, yeah, call the police, took this guy to court. And this guy has a,

01:48:25

Jordan has a restraining order against this guy from his family. Well, Jordan told people about that today, put it publicly.

01:48:34

And then he's got more coming out on Monday of some other stuff. So be on the lookout.

01:48:39

This is actually a really big story. So I'm thankful for that because I know this guy's been a thorn in a lot of people's sides in his vicious attacks.

01:48:50

So having said that, okay, let's go back to our sign. Women's rights are human rights. We've kind of demolished that a little bit.

01:48:57

The next line on this sign is, science is real. Right.

01:49:04

Which was my comment was, you know, you talked about, well, they don't consider the unborn baby to be human.

01:49:13

And yet they claim they believe science is real. And what does science tell us?

01:49:19

That unborn child is 100 % human from conception.

01:49:25

That's the science. And so they're contradicting themselves with their sign. You know, it's interesting as you go to hospital websites, right?

01:49:33

A hospital website, if you go to the abortion section, it'll talk about abortions.

01:49:38

Same hospital website, go to their pregnancy side. And guess what hospitals are doing?

01:49:44

They're calling this your baby at three weeks, your baby at six weeks, your baby at two months, your baby at three months.

01:49:53

I mean, go to any page. I did this for the Cleveland Clinic, the most well -renowned hospitals in the world is right there in Cleveland, Ohio.

01:50:01

And I quoted their website in a sermon I did about two years ago. They call a baby a baby in the womb from conception on when they talk to the pregnant female.

01:50:14

I posted, pulled this comment from Angie on YouTube.

01:50:21

Angie says life continues, excuse me, sorry. Life continues at conception.

01:50:27

Life does not come from death. And I absolutely love that.

01:50:33

That's excellent. Yes, that is fabulous. You know, we need to, as biblical

01:50:38

Christians, we need to understand where life comes from. It was breathed, the breath of life was breathed into Adam and Eve.

01:50:46

And that life comes from father and mother through God's miracle power of giving life to every single embryo from the male and the female side that comes together.

01:51:01

And there is no death there. Right. There is no death there. That's a fabulous statement.

01:51:06

That's the best statement I think I've heard in forever. Yeah, and it's known as the law of biogenesis.

01:51:12

All life comes from previous life. Exactly. And that's a fabulous statement because, you know, and it really does bring that out.

01:51:20

That's Angie, that is, you need to coin that and post that everywhere.

01:51:25

I said this, I said this. You know what? And you have proof. It's on this show.

01:51:31

You can trademark this now and we can trace this. Angie H said, boom.

01:51:37

Yeah, that is good. Wait till Andrew tries naming it for himself next time. Andrew will try to grab a hold of it.

01:51:43

So you need to trademark that. Put that in there. Fast, do it really fast. Yeah. So science is real.

01:51:51

This is astounding to me because presuppositionally, we would say that you, the people who say science is real are the ones who are evolutionists, right?

01:52:02

That's a statement that goes hand in hand with evolutionists. And as a presupp guy, I would say, wait a minute, how do you have the mental faculties in order to do science in the first place?

01:52:13

Like, how do you have an ability to reason and use the laws of logic in order to do science? Oh, by the way, in order to do science, we must have unchanging laws of nature that are already established in order to do science in the first place.

01:52:29

So where does all this stuff come from? As Christians, we're the only ones that can account for science being real because we know where it comes from.

01:52:40

I'm going to throw in here on this one because when you say science is real,

01:52:46

I'm going to have to come back with an argument. Okay, yes, I agree. That doesn't mean scientists are real, okay?

01:52:55

Just because a science field is real and absolute, that doesn't mean a scientist who comes out with a thought based on his foundational worldview, it's an anti -God worldview.

01:53:09

He starts out, his axiom is the same as everyone else's. We all know God exists and we suppress that truth.

01:53:17

Okay, so his axiom is just like yours and mine. And so his reason for science is to disprove

01:53:24

God and to be able to prove his point of view. I was actually listening to a

01:53:29

TED Talk when I was up in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, I'm sorry.

01:53:35

I was up in Philadelphia and I'm listening to a TED Talk from a trans black man who is arguing for his trans identity from birth.

01:53:51

He says he was genetically created as a trans man from birth.

01:53:59

He had the physical body of a man, but he actually was a woman genetically from birth.

01:54:05

And he's using all of this supposed language. I think this, we're going to find this and we're going to find the genome this.

01:54:12

It's not ready yet, but maybe in 100 or 200 years, we're going to find this. And I'm given the first foundations and here's what he said.

01:54:19

We can't show this as proof anywhere, except if you are in this room that I work in and there's 15 different computers that are working at a billion, billion, billion, billion, billion parts per second or nanosecond.

01:54:35

And they are proving this based on our algorithms. And I'm thinking, do you really have to be that stupid to honestly believe that what he's not saying is that we just programmed all these computers to say what we want it to say.

01:54:51

And now we've disproven God. Science is real. Scientists are not.

01:54:58

I'm sorry, but it was scientific fact. You know, Anthony, you know this for a fact.

01:55:03

It was a scientific fact that if you drilled a hole in somebody's head 400 years ago, the bad blood would come out and the demons would come out.

01:55:12

It was a scientific fact. We can try that on Andrew and see if flying demon babies come out.

01:55:21

Oh, man, that's great.

01:55:27

That's great. But you know, you think about it. Science is true. It's real. But, and the only reason it is, is it because it conforms with the word of God.

01:55:35

Yeah, again, if I was speaking with somebody, I would ask them, what do you mean by science?

01:55:42

Amen. Because that's a loaded term. Amen, brother. That's 100%.

01:55:47

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, for people who listen to a lot of ancestral Genesis or CMI creationists, you would understand the difference between historical science versus operational or experimental science.

01:56:02

Yeah. And you would understand that when you can't use science, to try to figure out something from history.

01:56:12

Like you can't use experimental science for that, right? Experimental science is for the here and now type of deal.

01:56:19

And this is where we bring up the issues in evolution is that you can't test for evolution.

01:56:27

Can't test for it. It's not observable. And they admit to that, that it's not observable. Evolution is not scientific.

01:56:34

They don't know how much they want to claim it is. They have to use historical clues from the past and try to string together into some whacked out theory to try to pretend that evolution happens.

01:56:45

So, and that's a different discussion for a different day. But yeah, science is a loaded term. Absolutely. So the next one here is, okay, so we got, we believe black lives matter.

01:57:00

No human is illegal. Love is love. Women's rights are human rights. Science is real.

01:57:06

And then they have this one. Water is life. I drank,

01:57:13

I drank life water all the time. It is really good. The flavored, the flavored life water is really good.

01:57:19

There you go. I mean, what does that even mean?

01:57:27

Water is life. I mean, okay. Our bodies are made of what? 70 % water or something.

01:57:33

I mean, you know, this earth is, is mainly water. You know, most of the surface of the earth is water.

01:57:43

If you, if you flattened out all of the lands, both above ground and, and underneath the oceans, and you made it like flat, level all the way around, that the water on the surface of the earth,

01:57:57

I think would cover two miles deep. Yeah. The entire globe. Of the entire globe. There'd be no dry land. Yeah.

01:58:03

And good thing it's not a flat earth. Otherwise you just fall off the edges. That's right. Cause it would go over the top of all of the glaciers and stuff that they say holds in the water right now.

01:58:13

Two miles. It would just go right over and flow over the top. And we run out of water and there'd be no life. And then there'd be no life. So yeah.

01:58:20

And the cat, the cats would have slid it all off the edge anyway. Yeah. But the chickens would fly.

01:58:27

So they would, they would, they would have fall really fast. But yeah.

01:58:32

So water, water is life. I don't, I don't understand what that, what that means at all.

01:58:38

Honestly, it must be some environmental. Well, actually I'm wondering if it's not have to do with our origin.

01:58:49

That we came from water and that we, you know, we don't need God. I mean,

01:58:54

I could be wrong on this, but I'm thinking it might. I mean, there, there's so much anti -God, you know, doctrine being taught by BLM and all these, all these different groups that it's,

01:59:06

I mean, I, I think that with that, they're, they're trying to teach that without water, that water can't, you know, life came from the water without water.

01:59:15

You can't have life, that life may have started just there, which we could definitely have a fine discussion on that.

01:59:25

Well, and maybe we should now, if for anybody who is listening that has taken one of Mike Riddle's courses or any of the times

01:59:31

I've taught this course, is that is that there's only a couple of possibilities of life. And in being able to form on its own, right?

01:59:40

And, and the problem is, is life couldn't form in water because of something called hydrolysis.

01:59:46

That that's a water has a tendency to split atoms, especially amino acids.

01:59:51

So the same amino acids that are magically trying to form over millions of years and coalesce into proteins would be destroyed within a matter of days to weeks of being formed because of the water.

02:00:04

Water is not habitable for life to form in, in that sense. So yeah, interesting stuff.

02:00:14

And I don't even know what the bottom line is here. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

02:00:26

Well, you know, this brings up an interesting point about justice because this is also a loaded term.

02:00:32

And, and we have to understand what justice actually looks like.

02:00:39

And not just from our perspective, we got to understand what justice looks like from the one who created justice.

02:00:45

The one who, whose attribute, one of his attributes is, is being just and therefore justice will flow from that.

02:00:54

Scott or Pastor Justin, you guys want to talk about justice a little bit? Again, if you're going to have justice, you have to have absolute moral standards.

02:01:03

Exactly. And so where do those absolute moral standards necessarily come from? Exactly. Well, I'll tell you the scripture says justice and righteousness are the foundation of his throne, you know?

02:01:15

And if you think about it, when we're talking about justice, we are talking about the moral standard.

02:01:22

Now the question comes, what moral standard are we going to hold to? Our own subjective moral standard that shifts in the sands of opinion.

02:01:31

And it really does. Or are we going to hold to the absolute foundational standard that puts every one of us on an equal playing field?

02:01:40

It says that every one of us have gone astray. We're all sinners and we're all vile, wicked, depraved, unrighteous, and don't seek after God.

02:01:51

And that God in his kindness requires every man to repent. He requires every man everywhere of every tribe, people, tongue, and nation to repent.

02:02:02

And the problem is, is we see a world that is unrepentant. The product evidence of an unrepentant world is a blasphemous mankind that wants to destroy and dominate.

02:02:16

And they want to overtake all other men and harm, and they call it justice.

02:02:22

We're being told right now that it's just to isolate, target, and enslave those who used to be those that enslaved others now.

02:02:34

It's just because it's reparations. Not forgive, not call people to repentance, not call people to holiness and godliness, but to call people to the basis form of ourselves so that we can uphold man's justice.

02:02:51

God says we must repent and we all have, as sinners, need to come to Christ and run to him.

02:02:58

So, right. And it's not even the people that actually did these injustices in the past.

02:03:03

It's the descendants, supposedly, of those who did that.

02:03:09

Yeah. And the thing I want, I want to make sure people understood here,

02:03:14

Pastor Justin, in what you just said is that here's the reality. We were concerned about justice on earth, as we should be, right, for things that are unjust, so to speak.

02:03:26

But when we talk about the highest level of justice, we have to understand our sin against God.

02:03:34

And R .C. Sproul's book, Holiness to God, one of the best books I've ever read, discusses this part in detail, is that as human beings, the fact that we're living and breathing means that God's justice has not been satisfied on us, but for Jesus Christ.

02:03:56

Amen. And so for the unbeliever running around right now, you're running from justice.

02:04:04

You have not had justice satisfied in terms of your sin against a holy, righteous, and just judge.

02:04:11

That everything you have in this world that's good is an absolute blessing, because you deserve death from the point of conception.

02:04:20

You don't deserve to live today. And this is the thing that we have to understand foundationally.

02:04:25

And as Christians, we have to understand this foundationally for ourselves, because we can even fall in the trap ourselves to think, man, why did these bad things happen to me?

02:04:33

Why does all this stuff happen? And we have to recognize, even as believers, you know what? We still don't deserve anything good.

02:04:42

It is still out of God's grace and mercy for the believer that we have anything good here.

02:04:50

Obviously, for eternity we have, it's going to be good. But it's interesting, that book really makes you think a little bit.

02:04:58

Voti Bacchum, anybody who wants to enjoy a six minute clip, type in Voti Bacchum, why do bad things happen to good people?

02:05:07

And you'll see a six minute, 19 second clip where he, what he calls flips the script and talks about, you know, people want to ask, why do bad things happen if God is so good?

02:05:21

He says, no, you need to think of it this way. Why with God knowing what I had done and thought until yesterday, not kill me in my sleep last night?

02:05:31

You can answer that question. We can ask that question. We can talk. He does a phenomenal job of flipping it upside down.

02:05:38

You know, you talk about justice and based on that, I will guarantee you that if you look at the discussions that are had by most people that are in the movement, they would tout, you know,

02:05:49

Martin Luther King. They talk about how Martin Luther King Jr., he was, you know, such a godly man and a wonderful godly man and whatnot.

02:05:58

Well, he was anti -Trinitarian. He didn't believe in the resurrection. Many people have shown evidence that he was involved in some type of a sexual trade with women and some money and kickbacks from that.

02:06:11

And he has less than moral, upright things that he didn't adhere to.

02:06:19

He's not a Christian. He wasn't a Christian, but he was their high moral standard. And you see him on street corners all over the place,

02:06:26

Martin Luther King Boulevard or Junior Boulevard and everything else. But then you hear people want to talk about their, they want to talk about their love for justice like Nelson Mandela and Che Guevara.

02:06:41

These people were murderers, mass murderers, genocidal maniacs. Nelson Mandela, he was in prison for a reason.

02:06:49

He wasn't a hero. He was a monster. And we say, oh, we got to have justice.

02:06:56

We got to have justice based on what standard? On the standard of God? Well, OK. And God's standard, and God's standard, people like that and people like you and me, we all deserve nothing but wrath.

02:07:08

We all deserve wrath. So let's not uphold a faulty standard. Let's uphold the true standard.

02:07:15

Christ was the only one that lived the perfect life. You and I are sinners and we deserve the wrath of God.

02:07:21

And yet, like Andrew said, we've been given grace. Even if you're not a

02:07:27

Christian, you were given the grace today to hear these crazy guys on here ramble on and talk about silly things and chickens and then hopefully get to the gospel.

02:07:39

You know, that's our whole heart. Because even if you feel like you're not qualified to talk to Richard Dawkins or whatever else,

02:07:48

I love what Ray Comfort does. He goes in and he gives some discussion, talks to them, let them talk, goes back and has a nice discussion with them.

02:07:57

They act like he's a fool. He did a movie about it where he's a fool. And yet, as a fool for Christ, he gets to share the gospel.

02:08:06

He gets to proclaim the gospel. Even if they don't get saved, God was glorified in it. And that's the point of apologetics.

02:08:16

I've told people before, if your point of apologetics is to win an argument, you're doing it for yourself and you're glorifying yourself, you're not going to get a reward out of it.

02:08:24

If your apologetics is to glorify God and get the gospel to people that don't know him, that's the reason for the hope that lies within us.

02:08:33

So that's right. Absolutely. So I can't believe it, but two hours has passed by already.

02:08:40

I see it on the left hand side. It actually says. It's amazing. Yeah. So we probably have to start closing up the show because, you know, my wife reminded me yesterday that I've set many records on apologetics live here in terms of length of shows in recent times.

02:09:04

And I said, you know what? The last thing I'm going to do is cut off Kevin Yons, whereas he's filling out his heart.

02:09:10

If he wants to go three and a half hours, he's going through. If you want to go eight hours, I'm going to sit on for eight hours, right?

02:09:16

So, yeah, we broke some records and had some fun doing so. But, you know, on that,

02:09:23

Scott, is there anything else you'd like to leave the audience with? So I know there's so much else we had talked about possibly saying, and we just got off on all kinds of other tangents.

02:09:33

Yeah, I mean, the best apologetic we can have is to know our

02:09:40

Bible, read it and believe it and apply it. Amen to that.

02:09:47

That is absolutely right. Yes, Tom. I do look like I've been cooked too long.

02:09:53

I had to pull that up. It is true. The sun, I don't know what it is.

02:09:58

I've been in the sun all spring and summer. I don't know what it is with this Tennessean sun, but I just got roasted the last two days.

02:10:07

It's intense. I cannot believe how dark I got it. And I mean, some is, I got a little bit burned too for the first time this year.

02:10:14

I'm shocked by this. So, yeah. So Tom, you'll see me cooked when

02:10:20

I get back home. Okay. Well, if you guys don't have anything else, what do you guys?

02:10:30

Nice to meet you, Pastor Justin. Brother, it's so great to meet you. Yeah. And Anthony for having me on.

02:10:36

Yeah. Thanks for being on. Next time you guys... Nice to meet you, chicken man. Chicken commander. That's it.

02:10:41

The chicken commander. Sir. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just got it. Everybody, his new nickname is the cluck commander.

02:10:52

Yeah, I'm out of here. Okay, I'll see you guys next week and I'll fall down again from last week.

02:11:06

You'll be sure to cut that out. We will get that out.

02:11:14

We can put it in slow motion. Yeah. So KT, I'll be here for a few more days with my family.

02:11:21

I don't know where you're at in Tennessee, but yeah, we'll be here for a few more days. So if you're in Nashville, feel free to get ahold of us and swing on by.

02:11:30

Say hi. If you're up in the Bristol area, Bristol, Tennessee, that's where I'm at. So up in this area. So you get ahold of us that way too.

02:11:37

So yeah. Okay. And if you're in Washington... Everybody, God bless you all. Yep. Yeah.

02:11:43

If you're in the middle of nowhere in Washington state and you see chickens and trees, you'll know you're near John. Yes. Right.

02:11:51

Right. Well, hey everybody, God bless. Have a wonderful night. Wonderful evening. Praise God.