Pastor vs. Mormon Security Guard

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00:09

So our concern, our concern is that we're teaching different Jesus's, right?

00:14

And then if we're teaching different Jesus's, then can that Jesus of LDS keep you safe properly?

00:22

But it's okay as long as we teach his gospel, which is love

00:27

God and love others. So if we're both teaching that, then in the end it's okay. Those are commandments, that's not the gospel though.

00:35

But that is the essence of the gospel, is to love

00:41

God and love others. But what about the Muslim who's teaching an uncrucified Christ? Does that Christ save?

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What's that? Because in Islam, the Qur 'an teaches that Christ was never crucified.

00:54

And Paul says if Christ was never crucified, then we're still getting our sins. So they're teaching a Christ who was never crucified.

00:59

So there's no sacrifice. They believe in Jesus though. They hate Jesus. So are they saved by believing in that version of Jesus?

01:09

It's not for me to say whether they're saved or not. God's going to be the judgment, not me.

01:16

But you can go to scripture, you can go to an authoritative scripture and look and see what

01:21

God says. And how would you come to interpret what Paul said, if Christ was never crucified?

01:27

By having a prophet to tell us what he's talking about. What about when the prophet contradicts scripture?

01:36

And what prophet is that? Let's say Joseph Smith said that I'm going to tell you how God came to be

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God. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I'll refute that idea. You've got to learn to become God yourselves.

01:47

So theologians have not found any scripture in the

01:53

Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible. I could show you numbers of it. Yeah, but you're using your own interpretation of that scripture.

02:03

What if we just take it flat? Just take a verse like 2 Nephi 25 -23 that says,

02:09

By grace you've been saved, after all you can do. And that's literally quoting Paul.

02:16

Except it distorts Paul. Because Paul says, by grace you've been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It's the gift of God, not according to works.

02:23

That's two different perspectives. One's all grace, no works, all to the glory of God.

02:29

One is me plus grace. Yeah, but see, we already talked about that.

02:36

I don't agree with that interpretation. Well, don't you believe that in order to be exalted, you have to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

02:47

No, not necessarily. Well, what's your article of faith say? I don't know. I don't read it. That all mankind may be saved through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

02:57

That's how we're saved, in Mormonism. That's a different gospel. Paul says that if you have a false gospel, you have a gospel that is anathema, which is meaning eternally condemned.

03:12

Good words by Paul. Do you believe it? Um, I believe that the interpretation of it could be different among different beliefs.

03:27

Well, what if I just quote it? There's one true interpretation. Right. Yeah, you can quote it, but you can quote that scripture, but then there'd be other interpretations of it and what he's actually saying.

03:37

And you can't see the difference between it? I mean, if you're just being honest, you can't see the difference between it, reading it word for word?

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Because right now, the second Nephi 23, 24 and...

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25, 23. 25, 23. Yeah. And then it said, after all you can do.

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And then the other one, you're quoting it as not according to works, not according to works, lest any man should boast. By grace through faith.

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Which I interpreted as, it's not according to the works of man that you're saved, it's according to the works of God that you're saved.

04:07

See how the difference though is, we're going to the text and letting the text speak, and you're reading into the text something else.

04:14

You're reading into the text something else. No, I was reading the text as it said. Well, which text are we referring to?

04:22

The one that they showed me, Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, sort of.

04:27

Right. To me, that meant that you're saved, not by the works of man, but by the works of God.

04:32

None of that is in the text though. As a matter of fact, it actually says in the text that you were dead in your sins and trespasses by nature, children of wrath.

04:40

And it said God made you alive together with him, by grace you've been saved. So for Paul there, you were spiritually dead, but God, by his grace, raised you to life.

04:50

And it said none of the works. He says that later. Right. And not according to works.

04:57

Yeah, which is saying... But Mormonism, Latter -day

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Saint theology does teach that it is through our works, our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

05:08

Yeah. Specifically. Explicitly. Yeah, I already talked to these guys about it. And my question is, and they already answered it, is if you're not saved by according to works, then why does it matter if we do works?

05:21

Because we're saved. Because we're new. Ephesians 2, 10, you're created for them. God created you for them.

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So we're doing works. We're saved. You don't have to do works if you believe you're saved.

05:37

In the end... Can I point one thing out? This might help even to understand the perspective.

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Paul's point about how a person is reconciled to God is that God is holy and we are depraved and sinful and we're lost.

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You would agree with that in terms of us being sinful. At least that. Humans are sinful.

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But he says that we need a righteousness that is not our own. It's a righteousness that comes from God through faith in Jesus.

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It's Christ's righteousness. So you and I are going to stand before God either in our sinfulness or...

06:13

And it's only through grace are we saved. Or in the righteousness of Christ. His work. Right.

06:19

Mormonism teaches... Not the works of man are you saying. No, but Mormonism does teach you explicitly that it's through your works, your obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

06:28

But it's not my works that saves me. It's the works of God that saves me. Well, it says,

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We believe that all mankind may be saved through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. That's how you're saved.

06:39

What I'm saying is that on our own we're deficient to be saved. So that's why we need the grace of God to come in to save us.

06:47

Right. And you know who else believed that? The Galatians. Paul says that they were eternally condemned.

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They believed that God's grace was necessary but it wasn't sufficient. You had to do this thing. At least keep this one part of the law to be declared righteous by God.

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He says, Christ has become of no benefit to you. Whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law, you've fallen from grace.

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So for the apostles' testimony, it's either grace received at the empty hand of faith or it is law.

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Paul says you can't hold between those two positions. If you do, he says, you're lost.

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If you keep one, you have to keep them all. We can't do that. We're sinners. Ouch. That's tough.

07:30

That's why we can have... Just to get you to look at this objectively, you know. Because on one side, you're saying that we're saved by grace.

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And on the Mormon side, what Jeff just mentioned is we're saved by keeping the ordinance.

07:44

So that's a contradiction, right? No, no, because I'm not perfect.

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And so, because I'm not perfect, I need Christ to step in to fill the place in the land.

07:56

So is it 50 -50 or is it 40 -60? It just depends on him.

08:03

So it's not his righteousness. It's some of you, some of him. But it's his grace that saves me and helps me the rest of the way.

08:13

So when he said it was finished, it wasn't really finished for you. It's not a completed redemption.

08:23

He was talking about something else. Well, to tell us die is a word that had to do with a transaction being completed.

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So remember that the veil ripped? You still have the veil up in there. Your church put the veil back up.

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The veil in the temple when Jesus died was ripped from top to bottom. That symbolized our estrangement from God.

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It's open now. Your church put it back up. Your church has the veil back up.

08:48

I don't remember a veil. Hebrews 10 .14 says that by one sacrifice he has made perfect those who believe in him who are being sanctified.

09:03

He's made them perfect by his sacrifice. And so this gets back to the role as the high priest.

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So if he is the true high priest, is he sufficient to save us completely, even those to the uttermost?

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He's able to save those to the uttermost who draw nigh unto God. And so this is the big contradiction here.

09:23

Is his grace sufficient for you 100 % of the way without your contribution?

09:29

It's not for me to judge. What about scripture? Is it for scripture to judge? If you interpret it correctly. So do you believe that God, the creator of all things,

09:39

I think I know your answer. It's more rhetorical. Do you believe that God, the creator of all things, is able to communicate? So for example, tonight

09:49

I've been listening to you. I think you're communicating fairly well. Yeah, we record. Sometimes.

09:57

Sometimes we don't. But like tonight, you've been actually communicating very well.

10:02

I'm understanding what you're saying. I understand your position. But you and I are just creatures, and I understand you well. But God can communicate, don't you believe, in a way that his creatures can understand him?

10:13

Definitely. So for example, you quoted two commandments that I agree with you on. Love God, love neighbor. Definitely.

10:18

Do you believe that's clear? Clear is an absolute, so I can't say.

10:25

So maybe I shouldn't love God? I can't profess that. So maybe I should hate my neighbor? Well, no, but how to implement that could be a thought.

10:36

Do you know Jesus answered that too? This might encourage you. Yeah. Love God, love neighbor. Jesus says all the law and the prophets are built upon love for God, love for neighbor.

10:45

So like the first two tables of the law, first table, love God, second table, love neighbor. Don't lie, don't steal from them, don't murder them, don't commit adultery, don't covet their stuff, right?

10:54

That's how you love your neighbor. So the law defines how to love God and love neighbor. It's that explicit. Another one would be a clear communication.

11:03

God says before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. You don't believe either of those things.

11:10

I don't? Because Joseph taught you otherwise, right? Oh, okay. I'm saying that was a question, right?

11:19

I suppose. So that's why we're here. We care about you. We have two different gods, two different gospels.

11:25

You seem like a very honest and zealous man. We want you to know the true Christ. That's why we're here.

11:32

So did you get one of these so you can test what we're saying? No, it's okay. He didn't want to take one, he tried it. Okay. Yeah, I didn't want to take one.

11:40

It's interesting to know where you're coming from and your beliefs in. It's great to have, to know that there's people out there, you know, separate just from, in general, the belief of Christ and to have that foundation to encourage others to have that belief in Christ.

11:58

Which Christ? Which, well, whatever Christ you want to believe in. How about the divine idea of God?

12:05

How about Jesus Christ or the Rosicrucians or the Christian scientists or the Muslims? They're all different though.

12:10

They're all different. You know what? As long as they're trying to treat others, love others. What if I bow down to him right now and worship him as Jesus Christ, the

12:18

Son of God? Would you say that's appropriate? It's probably not for me to judge. But we have to be able to judge these things because otherwise, this is a mechanism that we, instead of confronting truth, we back off.

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We'd rather sit with a lie or a possible contradiction than confronting.

12:37

You know, I mean, you have children. Wouldn't you want them to confront what's true? I mean, would you teach your children to confront what's true?

12:47

To really look at it, evaluate it, and confront it. But you're not doing that right now, if we're being honest.

12:54

You're backing off from it a little bit. All we're trying to do is give you a look at it.

12:59

I spent my whole time here trying not to debate and trying not to get in a back and forth and just hearing what you have to say to me.

13:09

We appreciate that. We appreciate that. Knowing where you come from. You know, one thing

13:15

I go by, I try not to get into debates. Debates don't do anything.

13:20

It's not going to change your opinion. Honestly, what you're telling me is not going to change my opinion. I know that deep down in my heart,

13:28

I've received an answer to my prayers, and that is something that God has spoke to me. But we're not trying to change your opinion.

13:35

We're trying to get you to confront some things and look at the Word of God.

13:40

I've already challenged what the truth is, and I've come to know what the truth is. And it's so powerful and strong that it has become a fact to me.

13:51

It's a knowledge that no one will remove. No one can change, because I know

13:57

God spoke to me and told me what is true. And the only way you'll find out what's true is if you have that experience for yourself.

14:06

I've had an experience. It's not for me to say, and it's wonderful. And it contradicts yours.

14:12

So is truth not possible? How about this? I know we'll agree on this. You're a Latter -day Saint. So we are close on this.

14:21

The people today who are going around saying, I've prayed about and I feel in my spirit that I am not really a boy.

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I'm a woman. But they're wearing a beard and they have male parts. But they feel in their spirit

14:37

God is telling them that they are not a man. How do you feel about that? What would you say to them?

14:44

You feel it deep in their spirit. God's touched them. I would not try to counteract that.

14:49

You wouldn't? Ah, I see. It's not for me to tell them what they need to believe and stuff like that.

14:55

So you don't believe truth can be known. Although I know that that's not necessarily the case, but it's not for me to tell them.

15:02

What if you love your neighbor? It's part of loving your neighbor. Well, yeah, but is it showing them love?

15:12

I think loving the neighbor is loving them for who they are and who they think they are. Who are they? Who did God make them, male or female?

15:19

Well, I know who they are. So you would love them rightly by loving them as a...

15:25

Just because they don't know who they are doesn't mean I shouldn't love them. So if God spoke and He said that He made male and female, you would say, eh, maybe not.

15:37

Not me. Jesus says from the beginning, He made them male and female. Someone else might say that, and I'm still going to respect their belief.

15:45

What if someone says, I believe passionately that we can molest children? Well, now you're getting into something that's different, where they're infringing other people's rights.

15:57

But you said that fundamentally you wouldn't challenge somebody's belief that they felt touched by God about, because you know there are pedophiles that believe that.

16:05

There's a limit to that, obviously. There's exceptions to everything. Who says this?

16:11

Where does this standard come from? Who sets the limit? It's my own standard. There's no absolutes and everything.

16:18

You can say stuff, but there's also exceptions to the rule. What did you say? There's no what? There's no absolutes to everything as far as...

16:24

When you speak in absolutes, you kind of speak figuratively. So when I say, as you said, it's not for me to tell what people believe.

16:34

Well, what I mean there is there's a limit to that. If someone is saying for themselves they believe they're a woman, even though they're a man, they're not going out and trespassing against anyone with that belief.

16:51

So I'm not going to sit here and say, well, you're wrong and you need to change. Is it immoral, though? Is it immoral?

16:57

It's immoral, but it's not for me to decide that. So they actually are infringing on the community because they're actually publicly portraying immorality.

17:05

You agree it's immoral. So you want to take away their free will and choice? No, I'm talking about the decision they've made.

17:12

You said it's immoral. Yes, but we don't go and force people to become immoral.

17:18

No, we do. In some instances we do. For example, I can't go kill them right now. But we don't force them to...

17:27

These officers, this officer right here, if I walked up to that guy over there and punched him in the back of the head, what would he do to me?

17:32

Okay, but you're not forcing them to do something. So they do enforce public morality, correct?

17:39

Yes, and that's what I'm saying. That has to be done, but there's a limit when it comes to policing certain actions in order to keep civil society.

17:53

Is denying gender immoral? If you reach into that, then you're starting to get into a field where you're taking away people's free will and choice.

18:02

So where's your standard of morality? That's where we're getting to. If everybody's just sort of, well,

18:08

I feel this, and I feel this, and I feel that, then nobody can correct everybody. And sometimes correction is the hardest form of love to take, but it's the most beautiful when it's fruit bears, and that's what we're trying to do.

18:21

We have a subjective truth in the Bible, and we stand by that. Where are you pulling this from is what we're asking.

18:28

By the way, I'm Jeff. I'm going to take off. It was great to meet you. It was a pleasure to meet you. Thank you for talking to us. No problem.