Is It Irreverent to Drink Coffee During the Church Service?

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00:00

You know part of this discussion is a bit like that to where you have pastors who are attempting to say thus saith the lord in this issue and so you know often if i'm

00:11

Taking a stand on a biblical issue The goal isn't to like say hey, uh, you better agree with me or else you're on your anathema

00:19

You're going to hell or something like that. That would be Making this a hill to die on, you know Technically that would be to say if you don't believe what

00:25

I believe in this issue. You cannot be a christian You're damned to hell forever and ever and ever but that's that generally what's happening

00:32

You're just saying the bible says this is a sin and then everyone loses their mind and say do you really want to die on? This hill it's like well,

00:38

I don't know what you expect me to do Warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences

00:45

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01:21

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty god is

01:29

Hanging over our heads. They will hear his words. They will not act upon them

01:35

And when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come they will be consumed and they will perish

01:42

God wrapped himself in flesh Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day

01:53

Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us

01:58

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand

02:12

All right, tim the question for today's episode is is it irreverent to drink coffee during the service

02:19

Frankly, I I saw this tweet by john piper and I didn't necessarily understand the line of thinking

02:26

That he was taking on it. But then I thought it was really interesting Like the responses that were given from so many people on this topic in general.

02:34

Yeah So meaning when I when I hear a question like that, can we reassess whether sunday coffee's sipping in the sanctuary fits, um,

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You know this bible verse hebrews 12 28. Let us Offer to god acceptable worship with reverence and awe

02:50

My initial impulse and even thinking about that is to say that I think most of our services have gone a long way from reverence and awe in general and You know john piper maybe we should think about what he's saying and try to Understand if Maybe perhaps we're over the line in this area, too

03:12

Meaning it's just not it's not the kind of question. I instantaneously dismiss I think we're probably as irreverent and You know less filled with all in our services as you could possibly imagine at this point

03:23

And then if someone wants to come along and you know pick at um, Some areas that we need to still go i'm open to the conversation for sure yeah,

03:33

I I saw I saw it as well and You know, I I just kind of didn't really think that much of it.

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But then I saw a lot of other people um You know quote tweeting it or reposting it or whatever.

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It's called now. Um, and I was reading a lot of the comments that people were

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Were posting about this and and I was I was just kind of shocked Maybe I shouldn't have been but I was just kind of shocked at um

04:03

You know the aggressiveness of a lot of the responses and Seemingly like the defensiveness of a lot of it in a way that You know at first I read john piper's thing and I was like, you know, okay, whatever yeah, like maybe there's something there, but I just I just didn't really give it a ton of thought there in the moment.

04:22

Maybe I should have um but then Seeing it a few more times and reading the comments, you know,

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I start I started thinking to myself man. Why why are people? so aggressive About this one specific thing, you know me personally i'm i'm not a coffee drinker.

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I don't like coffee um, and you know, so I don't I don't really have a a dog in the fight in terms of Well, you know at least in terms of you know, i'm not biased towards coffee basically, you know, i'm not bought into the whole the whole culture of coffee or whatever you want to call it and So I just don't think anything about about coffee normally.

05:02

Um And to just see so many people responding Uh the way they have

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I I you know to be fair. I saw plenty of people who are like, hey, you know Thanks john piper. This is good to think about I haven't really thought about this before and that was encouraging to see some people

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Take the take the question and say hey, maybe there is some legitimacy to this. Maybe we should actually

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Think this way. Um And and at least ask the question at least be okay with asking the question

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But then I saw a lot of other people Who were who were just like, you know, is this really the hill you want to die on?

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Basically, you know or or even like this one this one really bothers me.

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This is the one that made me That that made me be like man. I I really feel like we should talk about this personally

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But you know, this is what put me over the edge on it. But someone said In response to john piper.

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Do you want people to come to service or not? Don't make them choose between church and coffee.

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You aren't going to win And it's just like man, we're talking about you know,

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I mean you would think we're talking about like like Uh, I I mean

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I I can't even you would think we're talking about like hey, don't bring your bibles into the church Right you with with these kinds of responses, but we're talking about coffee right now

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And and I just I guess I just don't understand I need you tim to help me understand because I I just don't right now why someone would be so rabidly opposed to Rabidly opposed to coffee not being allowed in the service that they would say, you know what

06:46

I am no longer going to attend this church Yeah, well,

06:52

I mean obviously like People are made to worship. So we're we're creatures who instead of worshiping and serving god, you know the basic Condemnation that individuals have is that we worship and serve a creature rather than the creator who is

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Um blessed forever. Amen. So our heart, you know, our hearts is I think john piper or jonah calvin said our idol factories we make idols out of pretty much everything and We obviously when you think about an issue like caffeine and coffee in general, we we have an unhealthy dependency on these drugs

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To a great degree, you know, so I think part of this is like you're just getting a reaction out of people that You're touching an idol so whenever you

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You know, if you want a good indication you touch someone like an idol that someone has idol They've taken into their heart.

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Just look at how they respond when you try to take it away from them or something along those lines and this is just a classic situation where you have people who have an unhealthy attachment to coffee caffeine

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And the moment you try to call that into question there they're you know defense.

08:04

Um Mechanisms are kicking in so you see people do the same kind of thing with their phone So if you have an individual who just like you're not allowed to touch their phone like that phone has become way too

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Important to them and there's something probably that they're doing that they shouldn't be doing related to the phone Uh kind of thing and so that's something.

08:22

Um Something that's just obvious like in terms of just the psychology of what's going on that coffee is just way too serious but then you know, obviously like You're looking through a lot of the responses that you see you do see a lot of responses about individuals who have that second kind of response to which is just the

08:41

Like hey, if you want unbelievers to come to church, then you're gonna have to make it good for them, right?

08:48

Right and and I do think I think if i'm trying to speculate as to what piper means by the comment in general

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I think it probably a lot of it does relate to this consumer kind of culture that we're bringing into the church where we're making the church be about this experience that's tailored for individuals that's all about them and making them comfortable and Putting them at ease and putting the putting the focus on them and their creature comforts in that way

09:16

Yeah, and so then I mean that's just in line with everything that big churches are doing in order to attract people is to make the music to be the kind of music that they like to make the environment be a

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Environment that's tailored towards their individual expression in that way um to you know to make it comfortable for them to make them feel welcome like as if they're like the center of attention and to Provide them with amenities and services and everything else and so I mean you can imagine like in big church culture where you have the coffee shops that That Are present within the whole church structure in that way where everyone's standing in line to get their coffee in order to go and to Watch this event

10:00

That's all about you know their own personal taste and everything that they're going to find enjoyable and I think when you pile up things like that,

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I mean there's There's obviously I think he's talking to a lot I think he's talking about a lot more than just Individuals bringing their own coffee into the service

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In order to drink it in order to keep them awake, you know while they're watching the service or something along those lines

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But yeah, I think there's a lot of things going on for sure but I think the the one that you mentioned about um

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Is this really the hill to die on that's probably one of the most comical ones that I hear people

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Say on a regular basis It's it's funny because it seems like those are always the responses where the most people are coming after you

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Right, right, you know, so it's like I don't know. I mean mate. I mean judging by the response alone.

10:53

Maybe I am If this is a response i'm gonna get yeah, I mean, I think that's the bizarre thing about it

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It's like hey, you know what the bible says this x right and it's like do you really want to die on that hill? It's like Die on that hill

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What are we talking about? I just made it

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I mean, I I you know, I just read the tweet and and I you know as a non -coffee drinker.

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I didn't you know, I didn't feel Attacked I didn't feel I didn't feel anything.

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Actually. I didn't even think anything about it much One way or the other and then

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I just I see all of these responses and I think it's just really concerning. Um, you know essentially

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Like someone I mean think about think about the view you must have of god If you are the kind of person who says, you know, how else are we going to get people to come to church?

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Unless we let them drink their coffee And that's all right. I don't know. I mean maybe like the holy spirit

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You know, like I you know, I it's the same it's the same kind of issue as with um, you know with um, uh people who who believe that the sign gifts are are still around it's like they their view of cessationists is that we believe that you know, god never works miracles now and you know, he doesn't do any

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He's not really doing much of anything. Honestly And and I remember seeing someone the other day saying

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You know if cessationists believe that god still performs miracles even today

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Then give us just one example of what you think god's doing. That's a miracle and it's like Have you ever heard of salvation?

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I mean like someone someone who putting their faith and trust in christ like Their god is bringing something dead back to life.

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That's a that's an obvious miracle This just exposes how little and how low your view of god actually is and I think with this coffee

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With this coffee thing, you know if you're if you're thinking hey, the only way our church is going to survive is if we let um

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Is if we let people bring their coffee into the service or even just thinking hey the only people

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The only way people are going to want to hear the message, you know that that we have to give them

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Is if we is if we let them bring their coffee You know into the service and you know sip on it or whatever.

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That's the only way then I think you're just exposing How low your view of god actually is and I think that's probably at the end of the day

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That's probably what's you know hitting a nerve for me um That and the fact that it just kind of comes across like a threat, you know, like hey

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Hey you you need those you need those Unbelievers to come to your church and it's like that sounds very strange

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To me, so so I guess I don't know. I I just have a lot of issues, um

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Uh with that in general, but then you know the question but then I guess there's like a question about well, where is the line?

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I mean Okay, okay fine they they can bring their coffee to the sir

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We've we've searched the scriptures and we've determined that it is, you know that it is not

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Irreverent to bring coffee during uh into the surface and and drink it during the service uh, whether you know, whether that be

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During the middle of song. Hey, I gotta I can't sing right now because I gotta sip on my coffee, you know, or Or um, i'm gonna you know, i'm gonna drink it.

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Um Right before Right before we take communion together I'm gonna drink it in the middle of the message so that I can try and stay awake because the pastor, you know, he's talking about the bible man and and it just gets

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He just goes on and on and it gets boring and I just got to drink something to help me stay awake

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Let's just assume all of that is not irreverent Uh, where is the line then?

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Tim, I mean like can I you know, can I bring my popcorn? Into the service and and eat my popcorn

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During this or can I bring my can I bring my ice cream? Into the service and and eat my eat my ice cream.

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Can I bring my my three course? uh breakfast Into the service and eat my my three course break.

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I mean, you know, obviously no one's doing that But then where I mean legitimately is there a line? With the with this stuff and if there is, you know, where is that?

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Where is that line is it before or after coffee before after coffee, I mean,

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I think the issue more related to these topics in general is um I mean, there's a couple issues.

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There's like the what is like Where is the line between how much like am I allowed to? Turn this service that's supposed to be about god into other things or whatever

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Like so there's there's a question along those lines to where um Yeah, I mean if you have some kind of diabetic and he brings a snack in order to so he doesn't pass out

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I mean, that's that's obviously not him Turning this into a movie theater with popcorn experience or something

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That's just him trying to keep from passing out because he has a medical condition or something along those lines

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So so part of it is like related to the motive thing and I think part of it though is related to the like we've normalized a lot of Weirdness as it comes to these services in general

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So we've normalized a lot of weird um Practices because we've turned the service into something that it's fundamentally not designed to do and now when you push back on it

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And then people are looking at you and saying hey, do you really want to die on this hill? and I think You know related to that kind of thing.

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It's like well My impulse in general is to say

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If you're gonna you're the one turning it into the hill to die on kind of moment. Not me.

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Yeah Yeah, but if if that's what we're gonna do and you're gonna say we can't be a church unless we have coffee or no one's

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Gonna want to go to your church unless your church has coffee My general impulse is the same impulse that paul has in those kind of moments where when the jews are demanding you must you know

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Circumcised titus or else paul says well, you can emasculate yourself, you know, i'm not gonna i'm not gonna have titus circumcised kind of thing

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Uh, because i'm not gonna deny the exclusive sufficiency of the gospel. I'm not gonna deny what we're actually doing here

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So, I mean these aren't eating services. They aren't obviously drinking services. They're not these kind of things and so Like if you're going to turn it into a let me have my coffee or else moment

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Then you're the one in the wrong not me, right? So you need to um Like our church isn't like a coffee shop um, you know too so, um

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So, you know part of part of it's that and and you know, I think there's um depending on a person's like Lord's day kind of convictions that You know, these issues would be very different in other ways, too uh, so paul, you know, john piper is not in a church service in the context of like This is the lord's day and we don't do any work on the lord's day and then you doing

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Work on the lord's day of providing coffee and that I mean that may be an element of this discussion as well, but But yeah,

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I mean, I think in general you look at this verse It the verse that we're talking about, um

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In in hebrews or whatever what let us draw near to god in worship with reverence and all

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I mean, I do think that we've turned this into a circus and we've turned this into a lot of other things and Fundamentally the church service really isn't meant to be about entertaining

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Non -believers providing them amenities providing them uh, you know services in order to persuade them that You know possibly they need to come

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I mean this is really fundamentally this is a worship service. It's about worshiping god It's about feeding the saints and they are generally outsiders in this context

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They're not the like guest of honor or something like that that everything needs to cater towards And so I think a lot of this discussion is just a man -centered discussion about you know

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A church that is so man -centered at this point That now we're at a point where you can't even take their coffee away without them revolting

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It's like well, let them revolt man. I don't care I would I would rather them revolt, you know, like if you're gonna turn it into that kind of thing then yeah

19:15

Well, i'll die on the hill. I guess if that if that's what you call it, you know yeah, I guess it you know, it is funny like Sometimes sometimes you'll come out and say these kinds of things and you know, you're not necessarily thinking like man

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This is the hill i'm gonna die on but then people start getting angry and it sounds you know, it starts sounding like well

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You know, I didn't necessarily want to die on this hill but it sounds like you're willing to kill me on this hill Go ahead, you know so I mean

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I guess so if that if that's if that's what this is going to end up being then I guess you know, but It is one of those things where yeah when you observe that kind of dynamic what's interesting about that kind of dynamic in general is that I mean fundamentally the christian should be willing to die on any hill

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Like if that's what it takes especially as it pertains to you know, worshiping and and reverence and all of god

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That seems like probably the most important thing It's it's uh, so what's happening is there's like a balaam dynamic here where you know

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Balak summons balaam and is trying to get balaam to curse the israelites and You know, he takes him to a certain location and You know balaam warns him.

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He says hey all I can say is what god has said, right? so This isn't like magic or something. I'm I can't i'm just I gotta say what god says, you know

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So he takes him to this location then instead of cursing the israelites. He blesses them or whatever And balak, you know, he gets mad about it and then he takes him to another location and he's like, all right

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Well, perhaps you can curse him from over here and then he blesses them again and you know, then he gets mad at me

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He's like i'm paying you to curse them not to bless them, right? I mean he's like didn't

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I tell you that all I can say is what god says and so, you know part of this discussion is a bit like that to where you have

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Pastors who are attempting to say thus saith the lord in this issue. And so, you know often if i'm

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Taking a stand on a biblical issue The goal isn't to like say hey, uh, you better agree with me or else you're on your anathema

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You're going to hell or something like that. That would be Making this a hill to die on, you know Technically that would be to say if you don't believe what

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I believe in this issue, you cannot be a christian You're damned to hell forever and ever and ever but that's that generally what's happening

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You're just saying the bible says this is a sin and then everyone loses their mind and say do you really want to die on? This hill it's like well,

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I don't know what you expect me to do, you know, right? Do you want me to say that? Oh, I guess

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I was wrong. The bible doesn't say this now Like I wasn't like I wasn't have this wasn't like a custard's last stand moment or something

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This is just a moment of saying this says lord and You don't seem to like it now and you seem to want to kill me now and then you

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Like what is the alternative you want me to just back down so that you won't kill me? If you're gonna kill me kill me, you know, like do do what you're gonna do, you know, like, uh,

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Whatever, you know, like that's not how this works. And so, you know, it's a funny kind of response to people

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It's like I don't understand what you expect to happen in this moment uh, you know piper, you know in this situation piper is asking the question is

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You know Church coffee culture. Is that reflective of worship and all and I think well, that's a valid question.

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We need to think about that Uh, but then you do have a certain kind of person that says hey, don't touch my coffee

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You know, you ready to die on this hill? It's like well, I guess are you ready to kill me? I guess if you're gonna kill me over it then uh,

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I don't know Do you want me to withdraw the question? Like what is the answer? What is the alternative? I just thought it was a fair question to ask, you know

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But um, so I you know a lot of a lot of the responses were mentioning like the early church culture and the fact that you know, oftentimes they would meet in in homes originally and uh, you know the communion that they were sharing was a full -on meal not, you know, not necessarily bread and and um wine

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It was a full -on meal. And so they were They would bring that up as a justification for being able to have

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Coffee in the service. So so what what is your response to that kind of? um You know to that stance uh on the early church culture or even just you know people

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There's also like hey jesus, you know, he fed the five thousand right he and he did that he did that a few different times and um

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You know, so and this is in the middle of him or this is, you know While he's teaching people so they're they're obviously probably eating while he's teaching at least at some point so You know if jesus is is allowing it then should we allow it as well?

23:56

Yeah, well, I think you have just Equification that's happening along these lines. So When the church early churchmen houses like these are not houses like you think of houses like this isn't like house church houses um, okay, so The typical roman house had a large centralized court called an atrium

24:16

All right. It had a uh, yeah a large centralized court called an atrium Which is basically just a big open space within the home.

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So I mean you you understand what these houses look like like they're just Houses, you know picture a big square kind of thing with the big square in the middle and that's your

24:33

Large centralized kind of court there, right? And so in these kind of houses like this this isn't like everyone meeting in someone's living room in a small cramped, you know 700 foot apartment or something like that in order to have an intimate, you know close, you know, um

24:49

Experience worship experience or something, you know, that's uh family feel or or anything like that the

24:56

I mean these are just like This is a time where christianity is in its infancy.

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They just got kicked out of the temple What are they going to do where they're going to find a rich person with a big house?

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And they're going to meet in this centralized courtyard in their house Because they're not really allowed to buy property and this is what they're going to do

25:16

This is the only place they have to meet if they meet out in public. They make it crucified or something along those lines, right?

25:22

So this isn't like hey everyone come over and we'll have fresh refreshments and bible teaching kind of moment

25:29

This this is not like that, you know pizza and jesus pizza and jesus. So that's not what's what's going on this is not that kind of thing like inviting people over for hospitality and You know hospitality and worship god combo or something like that's not really.

25:46

Um The kind of thing that we're talking about in that kind of way so what you're talking about is like Get the rich person

25:55

To host everyone in the centralized area of the home because that's the only available place you have to meet for gathering

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Now, I mean at the same time, I mean jesus, you know, he did feed the five thousand um but then like that wasn't like a sermon meal combo or something like He'd been teaching them for days at that point and he was concerned that they're going to be walking home

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Empty and hungry and You know everything else so like at that point it's like well, I better he performs a miracle to feed them so like the the idea though is just to say that um

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Yes, christians should be given to hospitality christians should extend hospitality um, you know in the early church, um, they certainly had

26:36

Lord service as part of meals And everything else. So I mean there's nothing I mean a lot of churches i've been at you have your service and then afterwards you have a family meal together

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I don't think that there's anything wrong with that I don't even think that's the kind of thing that piper is even addressing in this

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Talk in general. It's just I think what he's addressing is this consumeristic culture Essentially where you have these demands that of all for all these creature comforts in the midst of the worship.

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Uh, Performance kind of thing, right? So you can have you you know, you can have um um

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You can have a church service that is devoted to people gathering together to worship god

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That's what you're doing in the primary first instance And the more demands that like the unbelievers are making upon the believers at that point to make the environment comfortable to them suited to their

27:33

Taste provide them with food and drink and beverages so that they're going to be okay at a certain point You just lose the sense of what this is supposed to be about particularly once these things become demands in that way

27:43

So, you know like pretty soon I mean are you going to want reclinable chairs like they have in the movie theaters with you know, uh

27:51

Like your own personalized menus, you know Is that where you want to do you want a waiter to come by during the service to take your order?

28:01

and I mean And obviously the more that you have those kind of things happening the more that you have people who are performing work on the lord's day in order to Do of all these do all these things that you're talking about And then like the more that you have these kind of things the more you have people who are

28:15

Taken away from worshiping god and focus on providing you services in the midst of your

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Like sermon entertainment and your singing entertainment kind of thing, right? So I mean this isn't like a concert

28:28

This isn't like a rock concert. This isn't like a play that you're going to see where you have your refreshments

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This is about worshiping god and reverence and all this is meant to be All about him

28:39

And you're making it into an entertainment event for you. And I think to the extent to which we're doing that that is definitely negative

28:44

Sure Okay, fair enough This has been another episode of bible bashed.

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We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to bible bashed

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