Cultish: Jehovah's Witnesses Pt. 1

The Need to Know the Bible When Dealing With Cults

How many brought your Bibles with you? That's an essential thing because dealing with a cultist, you have to have a Bible. Good. I'm glad you brought your Bible with you. It's very important because the average well-trained cultist can take the average Christian and with a copy of the Bible twist you into a doctrinal pretzel.

I have seen it done. You can send a man through four years of college and three years of seminary and a 90-day wonder from the Watchtower Bible and track society will twist him up so fast and so authoritatively that it may take him literally days to get untwisted.

So you see, the kingdom of the cult is not sandlot baseball. It's big leagues and you have to know not only what you believe but why you believe it. So these are the things we're going to be doing as we study together this week.

Introducing the Guest and His Passion for Jehovah's Witness Evangelism

All right, welcome back, ladies and.

Gentlemen, to Cultish and Train the Kingdom of the Cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co-hosts here. I am joined here in studio by my man Veda. How you doing, man? I'm doing wonderful,.

My brother. Thank you for asking. I'm excited to be here. Awesome, awesome. Super excited for this.

Episode and for anyone who you're wondering, Andrew is absent today. His lovely wife Casey is a little bit under the weather today so he's got to make sure that he can take care of the kids and do all those things so Casey can rest.

So all that being said, hey what's up everyone? I want to talk to you about our latest sponsor at Cultish. Our good friend Ed Kolsch has put together a really impressive Bible dramatization that's very well done, very well produced.

It has a lot of talented voice actors. It's one of his big passion projects. If you want to go to redeempodcast .org he's got some great examples of what he's been able to put together. You can get an idea of what his passion project is all about.

I've listened to it. I think it's very well done. I was very impressed. Go to his website redeempodcast .org and if you like what he's putting together, he's currently doing a crowdfunding campaign for his next couple episodes because there's a lot of production that goes into it and we really believe in what he's doing.

We're very proud to partner with him. So go to redeempodcast .org and find out what it's all about. It's also brought to you by apologiestudios .com. Everything that goes into Cultish would not be possible without apologiestudios .com.

So if you go there, you can become an all-access member that will support the studio, which will buy in and which will also help Cultish. Also make sure you go to shopcultish .com. A lot of you have been loving all our designs, especially our Bad Theology Hurts People.

A lot of you have been supporting that, tagging us in our social media. So we appreciate you tagging us with your merch and supporting our merch out there and starting some great conversations. And as always, a program like Cultish cannot continue without your support.

So if you feel led to donate and help this ministry, you can go to thecultishshow .com. You can donate one time or monthly. I'm super pumped, man. I met you actually a couple months ago at the Doctrine on the Block conference, apologetics conference, and I just overheard the very brief part.

There's a bunch of breakouts and I just started hearing just a little bit, wasn't it outside? Because it was a small little church. Okay. And just from what I heard, I was super fascinated. So I was like, I had to catch you at lunch and I'm super pumped to talk about it.

So your real passion is talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, specifically evangelizing them, but you have a very unique and distinct tactic, which I'm super pumped to hear about. So just real quickly, before we jump into that, just tell everyone about yourself, what you're all about, and yeah, just love to hear just let the whole audience know.

Yeah, absolutely. So for those.

That don't know, I am a former agnostic leaning towards atheism. I'm from South Central Los Angeles, have a gang affiliated background. So the hood that I was from was my God. I didn't know that back then, but being more learned now, I know that that was my religion.

And I really just have a passion for the truth of the God that loves me despite all that I did for most of my life. So the fact that I have family members and Jehovah's Witnesses are active in the community that I live in, it's sort of hard to not come across them.

And because I have a passion for truth, which is the triune Lord and all that he represents, yeah, I want to know what ultimately to say to them. And I know that there are a lot of resources to debunk them.

And Ron Rhodes may be my individual favorite, but there are many resources to debunk Jehovah's Witnesses. But the fact that God is perfect and he left us 66 love letters to help us get to know him, I understand that his creation, human beings, saved or not, are not smart enough to outsmart him.

So I know we're going to get into it more, but the reality is Jehovah's Witnesses, they corrupted the Bible. Of course, there are different translations and versions, but there's a difference when there is someone who is doing an honest reading and translating that to their respective languages versus someone who is taking the Bible in the language that they already know and just trying to change different parts to make it fit a doctrine that they invented.

And that's what the Jehovah's Witnesses translators actually did. But the thing is, human beings aren't smart enough to outsmart God. So although it is a corrupted version, it is a corrupted Bible, we can still teach the Trinity using the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, meaning we can teach that the Holy Spirit is God, that Jesus is Jehovah God, and their Bible says so.

Defining Jehovah's Witness Beliefs About Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Jehovah

Okay, awesome. And also,.

I'm just very curious too, so kind of growing up in LA and having a background kind of in that lifestyle, but then coming to Christ, and what was the catalyst for you to start interacting with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Are they just very active in general in LA, or did you have anybody who was close friends or acquaintances who were in the Watchtower Bible Track Society? What was the.

Catalyst for you to start exploring this? Well, I actually didn't start paying a whole lot of attention to the Jehovah's Witnesses until after I got saved. So as a non-believer, I just wanted to seek truth, and because I was seeking truth with an open heart, I found Jesus Christ dying on a cross and rising on the third day.

But the thing is, when I would start to hear from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, I would think about when I was more unlearned than I currently am, and how influenced I could have been at that stage.

I mean, you just played a really good clip. I mean, I'm imagining if I ran into not even a seasoned Jehovah's Witness, someone who's been doing it for three months, like Dr. Walter said. I'm like, it could be really persuasive, and other cults do it too, like Hebrew Israelites, Mormons, they have a training that's literally designed to trip up orthodox Christianity.

So that's really what it is, and I just said, man, I just want to know how to engage them and teach about the triune Lord. That's all.

Yeah, and give me your thoughts on this, because what you heard there was just a lecture from the late Dr. Walter Martin. We've played him constantly. His ministry had a huge influence on us, on our ministry, but one of the things that Walter Martin always talked about specifically, whether it's a cultist or someone who's a Hebrew Israelite, or really any sort of form of counterfeit Christianity, there's always a language barrier you have to scale, because they try and have the appearance that they are Christian.

They'll use words like Jesus, Jehovah, bless you.

Bless you, brother. All that, amen, hallelujah, all that.

Yeah. So explain to everyone, what would be some good tactics as we jump into this to be aware of the language barrier between cultures? Because in a sense, it's like we're speaking, when we talk to someone of, say, Jehovah's Witnesses, they have their booth, or if you have someone who's in close proximity, they haven't really been going door to door that much since COVID.

But if you do get in contact with them, what are some ways you can understand that? Because we'll be speaking Christianese, and they'll be speaking the language of Jehovah's Witnesses using the same terminology.

How do you think we make those distinctions?

Right. I think that's a great question. You might notice that even when I did the intro, I said, we can demonstrate that Jesus is Jehovah God. That's an example. Because depending on who you're talking to, if you say Jesus is God, they might go, yeah, we agree.

He's a smaller God or a lesser God. And then you got to get into this whole semantic on what they mean versus what we mean. No, Jesus is Jehovah God, aka God Almighty. When I say Jesus is God, that's what I mean.

I'm being clear. If I'm just talking to you about Sunday school, I wouldn't have to do all that because you understand that. But no, I'm talking to a Jehovah's Witness, or if there's a Jehovah's Witness who's watching this and they're curious, yes, that's what I'm saying, that Jesus is God Almighty.

He is the Jehovah that your Bible talks about that created everything. Not a secondary version who was created and then created some stuff. No, he is Jehovah God. So I really just think it's being clear.

And I like to define virtually everything. For a presentation like we're about to talk about right now, I think the fact that we're talking about the Holy Spirit, A, being a person, and B, that person being Jehovah God is clear for the purposes of what exactly we're talking about right now.

But just generally speaking, that's defying things. What do you mean? What do you mean by inerrant? I don't know what you mean. Help me understand what you.

Mean so that I can properly respond. Yeah. Like asking questions, but more looking for clarity, looking for clarifications versus making an accusation. Yeah. And honestly, that should be.

Something that we do anyway, right? Because we want to communicate in good faith. We want to be clear communicators, and we want to represent people, even folks who we disagree with. We don't want folks who we disagree with to hear us say that they think X, Y, Z, and they go, actually, that's not what we believe at all.

Right. And Greg Koukl talks about that a lot in his tactics book. And also, the other thing that I'll say is it's important to not assume that the last Jehovah's Witness you talk to is going to go about the conversation the next way.

The way the next person that you talk to is what I mean. I like to allow them to say it, which is why even when we start to get into the text, and we're going to read, and you'll hear me say, okay, well, what is this saying?

That's saying that this is God. Okay, great. This is exactly how I talk through the Bible with them. I like for them to say, yeah, we're in the Old Testament text, and this is talking about Jehovah God.

Okay, great. Now I'm about to show you how your Bible was saying.

That that's Jesus. Exactly. Exactly. And I like this, man, because one of the other aspects I think is very important. You can give me your thoughts on this. When understanding the cultists that you're talking to, a lot of them will have a siege mentality where they interpret any sort of criticism of them as unwarranted persecution.

And so not only are they very hesitant for a straight-on attack, you have to think tactically, but also a lot of times they will not take any sort of quote-unquote anti-literature or literature that's opposed, that has something negative to say.

For in this case about the Watchtower Bible and tract society, they're usually taught and conditioned to only accept teachings and materials from the cultists or the organization about either that leader who's leading the organization or just the organization in general.

So they're really only taught to accept materials approved by the official Watchtower Bible and tract society organization. So that's definitely, I think, that's good to resonate with. I mean, give me your thoughts on that, kind of give them the tactics that we're going to talk about.

Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because usually what I do when I have these type of conversations with someone who is either a Jehovah's Witness or they're on the fence leaning towards Jehovah's Witnessism, because I have a lot of family members that sort of fall in that, you know, I just say, I'm asking you to think about this.

I'm going to present some stuff to you in the New World Translation. I'm just asking you to think about it. And before we actually get to the scriptures, I usually say, listen, I'm not asking you to agree with what I'm about to say, but I just want to make sure we establish that we have the same understanding, which is folks in what most people call Orthodox Christianity believe that the Jehovah's Witness translation came about and was edited and it corrupted the Christian faith or the doctrine of the Christian faith many centuries after it was already established.

That's what people in what we call Orthodox Christianity will say a Jehovah's Witness will say, no, we have the correct translation. And I just established that. Usually they say, yes, that's true. The Christians who we think are in error, this is me speaking as Jehovah's Witness, the Christians who we believe are in error believe that Jehovah's Witnesses edited and corrupted Orthodox Christian teaching after centuries.

Okay, great. And the reason why I just want to establish that is because when we go through their Bible, it demonstrates that what we call Orthodox Christianity has the right position, which is we're saying that God is triune, that Jesus is Jehovah God, that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God.

And not only that, he obviously is not an it, he is a he and your Bible says so. You know, so, and typically speaking, going from Jesus and how they view him to Jesus being Jehovah God is a really, really long leap.

You know, so many apologists and theologians will go, you know, it's best to just tackle the Jesus being Michael the archangel. You know, that's a smaller step, which I understand that argument. But my thing is, I just want to share the gospel with you.

I'll just ask you to think about it. I'll just go to Psalm 102 and then Hebrews chapter one, which we're going to go to in a second. And I'm just asking you to think about it. And the thing is, the last thing I'll say on this is the reason why I do this is, A, I remember Jim Warner Wallace, you know, he's a classic apologist, but, you know, he came to the faith after being age 35, former homicide detective.

But he says something in his books that resonates with me. That's actually my life story, which is when I actually got saved, I remembered, I started remembering things that Christians would say to me, you know, things that I didn't even know that I took seriously.

I was sort of just remember things that my grandma said, or that my mom said, or that some random preacher said to me. And it like, so these things sort of add up, you know, so we shouldn't get discouraged if it seems like someone is shutting us down.

But of course, this is a evangelism rule regardless, right? You know, when we're doing evangelism, but I try to just remember that because I'm just asking you to think about it. I just want to put it out there.

Here's what your Bible says about, you know, about God. Just think about it. And, you know, we do the conversing, the Holy Spirit does the converting.

Jesus as Jehovah in Psalm 102 and Hebrews 1

Oh yeah. No, absolutely brother. So let's do a couple of quick defining of terms. So we're going to be talking, the primary focus is explaining the Trinity to Jehovah's Witnesses, but also showing them emphatically that Jesus is God.

So maybe just for the audience, in case anyone is brand new to this, they've never talked with a Jehovah's Witness before, but they know they just believe something just a little bit different. I remember that's how I was when I first started engaging with Jehovah's Witnesses.

You just knew it was something different, but you weren't just quite sure. So explain just in a nutshell, what do they believe.

About Jesus? They believe that he is a created being off top. So he is a being that is created, or that as Christianity does not believe that he is created because we believe that he existed since before the beginning of time.

He shares the nature, the essence of God, the Father, as well as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not God Almighty, and they believe that Jesus is not the mediator to the Father for us. So we believe that, okay, well we have Jesus, we have the cross, we have the blood of the Lamb, that is our mediator, that is how we can be presented to the Father.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the 144 ,000 is the mediator. So it's a couple of steps that as a Jehovah's Witness, you got to go through to be presented in front of the Father as clean, white as snow.

And also they don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Before we even get to the Holy Spirit being God, they don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They believe that he is an it, and they change the Bible where the scripture writers are referring to the Holy Spirit as he, they change it to it, and they believe that he is an act of force, which of course is not true because an act of force can't be grieved.

My breath that smells great at all times, even when I wake up, can't be grieved. The Holy Spirit in scripture can be grieved. So the Holy Spirit is a person. I can be grieved, my breath can't be grieved.

Do they change any aspects? I mean, you think about, for example, you mentioned grieve in Ephesians, it mentions, it says, do not grieve the Holy Spirit. And when there's times where it shows the specific emotions, do they change that in the New World Translation or are those there?

To my understanding, they're there. Well, I know that there's enough that's there to show that to them. So if they do change some, I suppose that's possible, but I know that it's some that's in there where we can go, well, see, the Holy Spirit is being grieved.

And they even have arguments saying, hey, well, we see in scripture where the Holy Spirit is being poured out. So the Holy Spirit can't be a person because persons can't be poured out in their own Bible.

We can see things where Paul and where Jesus is saying they'll be poured out because they're communicating in a certain type of way. Well, if Jesus is a person, if Paul is a person and they're being poured out in this context, why can't the Holy Spirit be poured out in this context where he's saying that he's being poured out?

So all of this stuff can be, well, let me not overspeak. Much of this stuff can be demonstrated in their own context. Okay. All right. And then also just real quickly,.

Because we're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses, from their vantage point, I mean, as Christians, we know that Jehovah is just one of many of God's names, you know, but specifically for the mindset of someone who's there, like if you're walking in a downtown, you know, any places like the center square of someplace and there they are at their booth and you go up, then when you mentioned Jehovah, that's their terminology.

We would think is this is just one of the many names we can tie that we can give to God. But what specifically in the mindset Jehovah's Witnesses, when you say.

Jehovah, what are they thinking? They are thinking about God the Father. That is the one true God, God the Father. He is Jehovah God. Because note, if you and I were talking about something else, when I'm talking about Jehovah God and God Almighty, you wouldn't hear me.

You won't hear me say that repeatedly. I'm saying that in the context of this particular conversation, because we're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses. And that is the terminology that they use for God the Father, who is the only person who exists, who is that level of God.

You know, that gets a little tricky, you know, about, okay, well, how many guys is there? We do believe there's only one God, you know, but of course, they do have the John 1 in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was a God, you know, and that requires a little more nuance.

But just generally speaking, when they think of Jehovah, they are thinking of God the Father, the one true God.

Okay, well, that's very, very helpful. And I appreciate that. So yeah, let's just go ahead and jump into it. Let's talk about the specific tactics. So I have up in front of me the official website, jw .org.

Yeah. And there's plenty of billboards, you know, you see, especially like over in New York is where they're very prominent. And they're, they have a do they have a pretty large, prominent, like a pretty large presence to in either California and the LA area.

Certainly. Okay, certainly. I don't know the exact numbers. But you know, it's not hard to miss them. And they're present on college campuses. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, definitely.

So all over the place. And so this is. I think this is a fantastic because here you are showing their official literature. I think this is a great way to have a conversation. So yeah, I'm here at jw .org.

So I guess where do we start with all this? So I'm gonna ask you to go to.

Library, library, we're gonna go to library, which is the Jehovah's Witnesses library on their website. And notice if we see the jw .org not making this up, we are on their website right.

Now. So you're gonna go to library. Yeah. So anyone, anyone here who's listening and via podcast, go to jw .org. Right. And we're starting at the official website. So maybe this will be the the drag the click by click via the audio version for on the podcast.

But if you want to actually check out when we drop this on YouTube, we're actually going to be showing the screen live.

Play by play. And that's what we're doing here right now. Yeah. And one quick point before we get to it. Yeah. Because you know, I when I do my own Bible study, I used to ESV and all that and even with Dr. Walter, you know, he was talking about how Jehovah's Witnesses are well trained even in just 90 days, they know how to respond to us if we like to use the King James, the new King James, the ESV, or the NIV, whatever, they know how to respond to us.

They are in they are trained with so many hours on how to respond to a Christian who's going to go to one of those translations, right. And of course, you and I will say, these are translations that are made with someone making an honest translation to the English language, if their understanding of Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever it is, they believe that the New World Translation is the best translation.

Okay. So we go, okay, great. Let's forget what we call Orthodox Christian translations and go to your translation and see if we can see that Jesus is Jehovah God, like God the Father is. And I believe we can.

Okay, excellent. And just one other thing in.

Regards to translations, because the mindset of someone who's Jehovah's Witness is that they mirror, I think they would very much have a restorationist ideology as far as, you know, the truth being lost.

And on some level, Charles Taze Russell is the one who restored it. So, but when they're looking specifically at the New World Translation, this isn't just a translation, but this is really a restoration of what was corrupted.

And so, regardless of what translation a Christian is using, the Jehovah's Witnesses are going to have a mindset that they're using a faulty translation or something that's altered, but they're kind of, they have the high ground with the New World Translation.

So showing from their own Bible in many ways, it's going to, on some levels, I want to say break their programming, but I think it's on some level that is true because that's just the nature of cult indoctrination.

That's just how, regardless of the cult, you're always taught, you're given a superiority complex saying that you have the exclusive truth and no one else does.

And well, let's look at their quote-unquote exclusive truth, and we're going to see that.

Jesus is Jehovah God. All right, so jw .org, and you want me to go to the middle section of the.

Library? Correct. Okay. And it's going to give you options to click on, and you want to go to Online Bible. Online Bible. Because they want their people to go to this website and go to.

Their Online Bible. Now, just so you know, too, this is also, most people probably will go this on, say they're, they can pull out their phone. Correct. For example, go to jw .org. They probably, I'm assuming they probably have an app as well too, but for this case, we're on the official website.

So we're here, Online Bible. And where do we go from here? Go to the study edition. The.

First one that says New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Study edition. Okay. All right. And now we're going to see 66 books and what they call the Hebrew slash Aramaic Scriptures. And then we're going to see the New Testament.

So the first thing that we're going to go to on their website is we are going to go to the Book of Psalms. Okay. There you go. And you're.

Going to go to 102. Psalm 102. Correct. Let's see if I can drag this down here. All on their website.

We're not going to go to any of the translations that we would probably preach or teach from. So.

We are at Psalm 102 in the New World Translation. Correct. So I'm going to ask you to read the first two verses for me, if you don't mind. Okay. So Psalm 102 says, Oh Jehovah, hear my prayer. I'm.

Going to ask you to stop already. So the Psalmist who's writing this, who is this Psalmist talking to? He's talking to Jehovah. Okay. He's talking to Jehovah. We're not going to assume anything, right?

All we know is he's talking to Jehovah because he says, Oh Jehovah, hear my prayer. Okay.

Fair enough. Please continue to read. Let my cry for help reach you. Do not hide your face from me in my time of distress. Incline your ear to me. Do answer me quickly before I call. Okay. That's.

Fine. So that sounds like something that a human being should say to Jehovah. I mean that, you know, let my cry for help reach you. Do not hide my face. You know, I'm distressed. I need you. Incline your ear to me.

I want you to hear my prayer. Oh Jehovah. Okay. No problem. Please go down to verses 25 through 27. I wanted to establish that to demonstrate that the Psalmist is talking to Jehovah and saying things to Jehovah that us humans should say to Jehovah.

Let's see what he.

Says in verses 25 through 27. Okay. So 25 through 27, uh, the new world translation says long ago, you lay the foundations of the earth and the hands are the work of your, the, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you will remain just like a garment and they will wear out just like clothing. You will replace them and they will pass away, but you are the same.

And your years will never end. Okay. Thank you. I just want to be clear. Let's remember what you just read. This is the Psalmist. You already get it. I know you already get it. This is the first.

Time ever. We're like really talking to you about this, but I'm going to leave it to you. Oh my.

Gosh. So, so we see that according to the Jehovah's witnesses Bible, the Psalmist is saying these things to Jehovah God, long ago, Jehovah God, you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands, Mr. Jehovah.

They will perish, but you, Mr. Jehovah will remain just like a garment. They will all wear out, but just like clothing, you Jehovah God will replace them and they will pass away. But you Jehovah God are the same and your years will never end.

Can we please go to Hebrew chapter one, still in their Bible. Let's go to Hebrews in their New Testament.

And go to chapter one. Okay. And we'll just hit, I'm assuming we'll just hit back here. So book of Psalms, table of contents. Yep. Go down. And I want us to remember what we just read.

As we go to Hebrews, the first chapter. Okay. So here we are in Hebrews chapter one of the.

New World Translation. Where do we go from here? We're going to go to verse number eight.

Okay. And for those that don't know, you know, the Hebrew writer, the Hebrew writer does go, I think it was Google Chrome. So it was going to be Chrome bottom to the right, to the right. Here we go. So in Hebrews chapter one, you know, we see that the Hebrew writer is saying things that God, the father, that Jehovah God doesn't say to the angels.

And then in verse eight, can you read verse eight for me? But about the son, he says, okay. So, and then it says, God is your throne forever. And I actually could use this, but we won't right now. I just want to point out that Jehovah God is speak according to the Hebrew writer who I believe they'll say is Paul.

I don't get hung up on that. But about the son, who is.

The son? According to, according to the watchtower, he's a, yeah, he was, he is one of Jehovah's,.

He's Jehovah's first creation is Michael. Yeah. But that's Jesus as well. That's Jesus. So, and they'll say that they'll say about the son. Yeah. He's Jesus about the son. Here's what Jehovah says. So we see God is your throne.

I won't go there, but we will go down to verses 10 through 12, because when we get the verses 10 through 12, there are going to be quotations. According to the Hebrew writer who is writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, the Hebrew writer says that God, the father who is Jehovah God, God, the father says this about Jesus.

Can you please read verses 10 through 12? This is what Jehovah God, according to Jehovah's witnesses says about Jesus, the son, what does he say? It says, and at the beginning, oh Lord,.

You lay the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain just like a garment and they will all wear out and you'll wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed, but you are the same.

And your years will never come to an end. For those who did not catch on, please rewind this and really catch this. I'll, I'll, I'll explain this slowly. We went to Psalm number 102. We saw that the Psalmist was talking to Jehovah God.

That's what he said in verses one and two, verses 25 through 27. The Psalmist said things that is nearly verbatim to Jehovah God. What Jehovah God is now saying to the son in Hebrew chapter one verses 10 through 12.

So when, so when the Psalmist is saying, Hey, uh, Jehovah, uh, the heavens are the work of the hands. Long ago, you laid the foundations of the earth. They will perish, but you will remain. It's fascinating that Jehovah God, who they say is Jehovah God says that Jesus, he's, he's yeah.

So, so here's, here's what I want to point out that according to their Bible, the Psalmist was talking to Jesus. This isn't just Orthodox Christianity. In their own Bible, in their own Bible, we see that this is Jesus being Jehovah God, because that's who he is.

That's who he always has been. And that's who the Holy spirit revealed Jesus to be. And even a corrupted Bible cannot completely hide that.

Jeremiah 17 and Revelation 2: Jesus Searches Hearts as Jehovah Does

That's huge. So in their theology though, they believe that Jesus is Jehovah's first creation. He's Michael the Archangel, but then they would, they would articulate or argue that they co-created together and that's where they'll go to Proverbs eight, for example, and I talked about, you know, the, the person who I worked alongside that, that's what they'll adhere to though.

Correct. As far as creation, as far as the creation of the world. Right. Right. Okay. I just find that interesting because in this is talking about at the beginning of Lord, you lay the foundations of the earth, but they'll use that sometimes to make a distinction between the father and the son and saying the father, Jehovah, and he's just his first creation.

But in that very proof text, according to them, it's quoting from the actual Psalm.

That labels Jesus as Jehovah. Correct. Correct. Absolutely.

What, so what you, this is now, this is not just like this, this is not just an idea on your hand. This is something you've actually done when you've talked to Jehovah's witnesses. What's the response to this?

What's the response when you talk to someone and what's, what do they do here?

Man, I'm not, I'm not trying to listen. I am not the world's best debater, but this is, this is the honest to God truth. When I present this to Jehovah's witnesses, I really don't get nothing to be honest with you.

I can't even articulate the amount of nothing that they say. I don't want to sound disrespectful. One response that I got was really what you just said that, well, you know, Jesus is created. So it was totally fine for him to create these things.

This is basically the father saying that he created a creator who has the authority to create things. So that's the most compelling response that I've gotten to it. But of course, I think that that is debunked by the fact that the Psalmist was attributing this nearly verbatim to Jehovah.

And then the father, then the father says the exact same thing to Jesus. But even if they want to take that argument and we just concede that point, I have another one. I have another one that I think completely debunks that.

All right. I'm happy to go there. Let's go to.

Jeremiah chapter 17. Oh, actually I have one question. Maybe unless you're going to explore this later, because I know this is an issue that's, you see it right here in the New World Translation, and this comes up a lot as well too.