Cultish: Jehovah's Witnesses Pt. 1

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Cultish: Jehovah's Witnesses Pt. 2

00:00

How many brought your Bibles with you? That's an essential thing, because dealing with a cultist, you have to have a

00:05

Bible. Good, I'm glad you brought your Bible with you. It's very important, because the average well -trained cultist can take the average

00:12

Christian and with a copy of the Bible twist you into a doctrinal pretzel. I have seen it done.

00:19

You can send a man through four years of college and three years of seminary and a 90 -day wonder from the Watchtower Bible and track society will twist him up so fast and so authoritatively that it may take him literally days to get untwisted.

00:35

So you see, the kingdom of the cult is not sandlot baseball. It's big leagues, and you have to know not only what you believe, but why you believe it.

00:46

So these are the things we're going to be doing as we study together this week. All right, welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish and Train the

00:55

Kingdom of the Cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co -hosts here. I am joined here in studio by my man

01:03

Veda. How you doing, man? I'm doing wonderful, my brother. Thank you for asking. I'm excited to be here. Awesome, awesome.

01:08

Super excited for this episode, and for anyone who you're wondering, Andrew is absent today.

01:14

His lovely wife Casey is a little bit under the weather today, so he's got to make sure that he can take care of the kids and do all those things so Casey can rest.

01:22

So all that being said, hey, what's up, everyone? I want to talk to you about our latest sponsor at Cultish.

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I've listened to it. I think it's very well done. I was very impressed. Go to his website, redeempodcast .org,

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and if you like what he's putting together, he's currently doing a crowdfunding campaign for his next couple episodes because there's a lot of production that goes into it, and we really believe in what he's doing.

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02:56

You can donate one time or monthly. I'm super pumped, man. I met you actually a couple months ago at the

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Doctrine on the Block conference, apologetics conference, and I just overheard the very brief part. There was a bunch of breakouts, and I just started hearing just a little bit.

03:13

Wasn't it outside, because it was a small little church? Okay. And just from what I heard, I was super fascinated, so I was like,

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I had to catch you at lunch, and I'm super pumped to talk about it. So your real passion is talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, specifically evangelizing them, but you have a very unique and distinct tactic, which

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I'm super pumped to hear about. So just real quickly, before we jump into that, just tell everyone about yourself, what you're all about, and just let the whole audience know.

03:47

Yeah, absolutely. So for those that don't know, I am a former agnostic, leaning towards atheism.

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I'm from South Central Los Angeles, have a gang -affiliated background. So the hood that I was from was my

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God. I didn't know that back then, but being more learned now, I know that that was my religion.

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And I really just have a passion for the truth of the God that loves me despite all that I did for most of my life.

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So the fact that I have family members and Jehovah's Witnesses are active in the community that I live in, it's sort of hard to not come across them.

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And because I have a passion for truth, which is the triune Lord, and all that He represents, yeah,

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I want to know what ultimately to say to them. And I know that there are a lot of resources to debunk them.

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And Ron Rhodes may be my individual favorite, but there are many resources to debunk

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Jehovah's Witnesses. But the fact that God is perfect, and He left us 66 love letters to help us get to know

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Him, I understand that His creation, human beings, saved or not, are not smart enough to outsmart

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Him. So I know we're going to get into it more, but the reality is, you know,

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Jehovah's Witnesses, they corrupted the Bible. Of course, there are different translations and versions, but it's different when there is someone who is doing an honest reading and translating that to their respective languages versus someone who is taking the

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Bible in the language that they already know and just trying to change different parts to make it fit a doctrine that they invented.

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And that's what the Jehovah's Witnesses translators actually did. But the thing is, human beings aren't smart enough to outsmart

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God. So although it is a corrupted version, it is a corrupted Bible, we can still teach the

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Trinity using the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, meaning we can teach that the Holy Spirit is

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God, that Jesus is Jehovah God, and their Bible says so. Okay, awesome.

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And also, I'm just very curious too, so kind of growing up in LA and having a background kind of in that lifestyle, but then coming to Christ, and what was a catalyst for you to start interacting with Jehovah's Witnesses?

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Are they just very active in general in LA, or did you have anybody who was close friends or acquaintances who were in the

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Watchtower Bible Track Society? What was the catalyst for you to start exploring this? Well, I actually didn't start paying a whole lot of attention to the

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Jehovah's Witnesses until after I got saved. So as a non -believer, I just wanted to seek truth, and because I was seeking truth with an open heart,

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I found Jesus Christ dying on a cross and rising on the third day. But the thing is, when I would start to hear from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, I would think about, you know, when

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I was more unlearned than I currently am, and how influenced

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I could have been, you know, at that stage. I mean, you just played a really good clip. I mean,

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I'm imagining if I ran into not even a seasoned Jehovah's Witness, someone who's been doing it for three months, like Dr.

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Walter said, you know, I'm like, it could be really persuasive. And other cults do it too, like Hebrew Israelites, Mormons, you know, they have a training that's literally designed to trip up Orthodox Christianity, you know, so that's really what it is.

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And I just said, man, you know, I just want to know how to engage them and teach about the triune

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Lord. That's all. Yeah, and give me your thoughts on this, because what you heard there was just a lecture from the late

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Dr. Walter Martin. We've, you know, played him constantly, his show, his ministry had a huge influence on us, on our ministry.

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But one of the things that Walter Martin always talked about, specifically, whether it's a cultist or someone who's a

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Hebrew Israelite, or really any sort of form of counterfeit Christianity, there's always a language barrier you have to scale, because they try and have the appearance that they are

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Christian, but they'll use words like Jesus, Jehovah, bless you.

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Yeah, all that. So explain to everyone, what would be some good tactics as we jump into this to be aware of the language barrier between cultures?

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Because in a it's like we're speaking, when we talk to someone of say, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses, they have their booth, or if you have someone who's in close proximity, they haven't really been going door to door that much since COVID.

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But if you do get in contact with them, you know, what are some ways you can understand that?

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Because we'll be speaking Christianese, and they'll be speaking the language of Jehovah's Witnesses using the same terminology.

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How do you think we make those distinctions? Right. I think that's a great question. You might notice that even when

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I did the intro, I said we can demonstrate that Jesus is Jehovah God. Like, that's an example. Because depending on who you're talking to, if you say

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Jesus is God, they might go, yeah, we agree. You know, he's a smaller God or a lesser God, you know, and then you got to get into this whole semantic on what they mean versus what we mean.

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No, Jesus is Jehovah God, aka God Almighty. When I say Jesus is God, that's what

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I mean. I'm being clear. If I'm just talking to you about Sunday school, I wouldn't have to do all that, because you understand that.

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But no, if I'm talking to a Jehovah's Witness or if there's a Jehovah's Witness who's watching this and they're curious, yes, that's what

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I'm saying, that Jesus is God Almighty. He is the Jehovah that your

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Bible talks about that created everything. You know, not a secondary version who was created and then created some stuff.

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No, he is Jehovah God. So I really just think it's being clear, and I like to define virtually everything.

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You know, for a presentation like we're about to talk about right now, I think the fact that we're talking about the Holy Spirit, A, being a person, and B, that person being

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Jehovah God is clear for the purposes of what exactly we're talking about right now, but just generally speaking, that's defying things.

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You know, what do you mean? What do you mean by inerrant? I don't know what you mean. Help me understand what you mean so that I can properly respond.

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Yeah, like asking questions, but more looking for clarity, looking for clarifications versus making an accusation.

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Yeah, and honestly, that should be something that we do anyway, right? Because, you know, we want to communicate in good faith.

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We want to be clear communicators, and we want to represent people, even folks who we disagree with.

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You know, we don't want folks who we disagree with to hear us say that they think X, Y, Z, and they go, actually, that's not what we believe at all.

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Right. You know, so that's just, and Greg Kokel, you know, talks about that a lot, you know, in his tactics book, but, and also the other thing that I'll say is, it's important to not assume that the last

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Jehovah's Witness you talk to is going to go about the conversation the next way, you know, the way the next person that you talk to is what

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I mean. You know, I like to allow them to say it, which is why even when we start to get into the text, and we're going to read, and you'll hear me say, okay, well, what is this saying?

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That's saying that this is God. Okay, great. You know, this is exactly how I talk through the

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Bible with them. I like for them to say, yeah, we're in the Old Testament text, and this is talking about Jehovah God.

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Okay, great. Now I'm about to show you how your Bible was saying that that's Jesus. Exactly. Exactly. And I like this, man, because one of the other aspects

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I think is very important, you can give me your thoughts on this, when understanding the cultists that you're talking to, a lot of them will have a siege mentality where they interpret any sort of criticism of them as unwarranted persecution.

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And so not only are they very hesitant for a straight -on attack, you have to think tactically, but also a lot of times they will not take any sort of quote -unquote anti -literature or literature that's opposed, that has something negative to say, for in this case about the

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Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, they're usually taught and conditioned to only accept teachings and materials from the cultists or the organization about either that leader who's leading the organization or just the organization in general.

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So they're really only taught to accept materials approved by the official Watchtower Bible and Tract Society organization.

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So that's definitely, I think, that's good to resonate with. I mean, give me your thoughts on that, kind of given the tactics that we're going to talk about.

12:04

Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because usually what I do when I have these type of conversations with someone who is either a

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Jehovah's Witness or they're on the fence, leaning towards Jehovah's Witnessism, because I have a lot of family members that sort of fall in that, you know,

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I just say, I'm asking you to think about this. I'm going to present some stuff to you in the New World Translation.

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I'm just asking you to think about it. And before we actually get to the Scriptures, I usually say, listen,

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I'm not asking you to agree with what I'm about to say, but I just want to make sure we establish that we have the same understanding, which is folks in what most people call

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Orthodox Christianity believe that the Jehovah's Witness translation came about and was edited and it corrupted the

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Christian faith or the doctrine of the Christian faith many centuries after it was already established.

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That's what people in what we call Orthodox Christianity will say, a Jehovah's Witness will say, no, we have the correct translation.

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And I just established that. Usually they say, yes, that's true. The Christians who we think are in error, this is me speaking as Jehovah's Witness, the

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Christians who we believe are in error believe that Jehovah's Witnesses edited and corrupted

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Orthodox Christian teaching after centuries. Okay, great. And the reason why I just want to establish that is because when we go through their

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Bible, it demonstrates that what we call Orthodox Christianity has the right position, which is we're saying that God is triune, that Jesus is

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Jehovah God, that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God. Not only that, he obviously is not an it, he is a he, and your

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Bible says so. And typically speaking, going from Jesus and how they view him to Jesus being

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Jehovah God is a really, really long leap. So many apologists and theologians will go, it's best to just tackle the

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Jesus being Michael the Archangel. That's a smaller step, which

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I understand that argument, but my thing is, I just want to share the gospel with you. I'll just ask you to think about it. I'll just go to Psalm 102 and then

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Hebrews chapter one, which we're going to go to in a second. And I'm just asking you to think about it. And the thing is, the last thing I'll say on this is, the reason why

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I do this is, A, I remember Jim Warner Wallace, he's a classic apologist, but he came to the faith after being aged 35, former homicide detective.

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But he says something in his books that resonates with me that's actually my life story, which is, when

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I actually got saved, I started remembering things that Christians would say to me, things that I didn't even know that I took seriously.

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I would just remember things that my grandma said, or that my mom said, or that some random preacher said to me.

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So these things sort of add up, so we shouldn't get discouraged if it seems like someone is shutting us down.

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But of course, this is an evangelism rule regardless, when we're doing evangelism. But I try to just remember that, because I'm just asking you to think about it.

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I just want to put it out there. Here's what your Bible says about God. Just think about it.

15:19

And we do the conversing, the Holy Spirit does the converting. Oh yeah. No, absolutely, brother. So let's do a couple quick defining of terms.

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So we're going to be talking, the primary focus is explaining the Trinity to Jehovah's Witnesses, but also showing them emphatically that Jesus is

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God. So maybe just for the audience, in case anyone is brand new to this, they've never talked with a

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Jehovah's Witness before, but they know they just believe something just a little bit different. I remember that's how I was when I first started engaging with Jehovah's Witnesses.

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You just knew it was something different, but you weren't just quite sure. So explain just in a nutshell, what do they believe about Jesus?

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They believe that he is a created being, off top. So he is a being that is created, or that as Christianity does not believe that he is created, because we believe that he existed since before the beginning of time.

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He shares the nature, the essence of God the Father, as well as the

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Holy Spirit. Jesus is not God Almighty, and they believe that Jesus is not the mediator to the

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Father for us. So we believe that, okay, well we have Jesus, we have the cross, we have the blood of the

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Lamb, that is our mediator, that is how we can be presented to the Father. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the 144 ,000 is the mediator.

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So it's a couple of steps that as a Jehovah's Witness, you gotta go through to be presented in front of the

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Father as clean, white as snow. And also they don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Before we even get to the

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Holy Spirit being God, they don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. They believe that he is an it, and they change the

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Bible where the scripture writers are referring to the

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Holy Spirit as he, they change it to it, and they believe that he is an act of force, which of course is not true, because an act of force can't be grieved.

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You know, my breath that smells great at all times, even when I wake up, can't be grieved, right?

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The Holy Spirit in scripture can be grieved, you know, so the Holy Spirit is a person. I can be grieved, my breath can't be grieved.

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Do they change any aspects? I mean, you think about, for example, you mentioned in Ephesians, it says, do not grieve the

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Holy Spirit. And when there's times where it shows specific emotions, do they change that in the

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New World Translation, or are those there? To my understanding, they're there. Well, I know that there's enough that's there to show that to them.

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You know, so if they do change some, I suppose that's possible, but I know that it's some that's in there where we can go, well, see, the

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Holy Spirit is being grieved. And they even have arguments saying, hey, well, we see in scripture where the

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Holy Spirit is being poured out. So the Holy Spirit can't be a person because persons can't be poured out. In their own Bible, we can see things where Paul and where Jesus is saying they'll be poured out because they're communicating in a certain type of way.

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Well, if Jesus is a person, if Paul is a person, and they're being poured out in this context, why can't the

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Holy Spirit be poured out in this context where he's saying that he's being poured out? So all of this stuff can be, well, let me not overspeak.

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Much of this stuff can be demonstrated in their own context. Okay. All right. And then also just real quickly, because we're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses, from their vantage point,

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I mean, as Christians, we know that Jehovah is just one of many of God's names, you know, but specifically for the mindset of someone who's there, like if you're walking in a downtown, you know, any places like the center square of someplace, and there they are their booth, and you go up, then when you mentioned

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Jehovah, that's their terminology. Correct. We would think is this is just one of the many names we can tie that we can give to God.

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But what specifically in the mindset Jehovah's Witnesses, when you say Jehovah, what are they thinking?

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They are thinking about God the Father. That is the one true God, God the

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Father. He is Jehovah God. Because note, if you and I were talking about something else, when

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I'm talking about Jehovah God and God Almighty, you won't hear me say that repeatedly.

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I'm saying that in the context of this particular conversation, because we're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses. And that is the terminology that they use for God the

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Father, who is the only person who exists who is that level of God.

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You know, that gets a little tricky, you know, about, okay, well, we do believe there's only one

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God, you know, don't misrepresent us, etc. But of course, they do have the John 1 in the beginning was the Word, the

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Word was with God, the Word was a God, you know, and that requires a little more nuance. But just generally speaking, when they think of Jehovah, they are thinking of God the

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Father, the one true God. Okay. Well, that's very, very helpful, and I appreciate that.

20:08

So yeah, let's just go ahead and jump into it. Let's talk about the specific tactics. So I have up in front of me the official website, jw .org.

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And there's plenty of billboards, you know, you see, especially like over in New York is where they're very prominent. And they're, they have a do they have a pretty large prominent, like a pretty large presence to in either

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California and the LA area. Certainly. Okay, certainly. I don't know the exact numbers. But you know, it's not hard to miss them.

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And they're present on college campuses. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, definitely. So all over the place. And so this is

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I think this is a fantastic because here you are showing their official literature where you I think this is a great way to have a conversation.

20:44

So yeah, I'm here at jw .org. So I guess where do we start with all this?

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So I'm gonna ask you to go to library, library, we're gonna go to library, okay, which is the

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Jehovah's Witnesses library on their website. And notice if we see the jw .org not making this up, we are on their website right now.

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So you're gonna go to library. Yeah. So anyone, anyone here who's listening in via podcast, go to jw .org.

21:09

Right. And we're starting at the official website. So maybe this will be the the drag the click by click via the audio version for on the podcast.

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But if you want to actually check out when we drop this on YouTube, we're actually going to be showing the screen live play by play.

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And that's what we're doing here right now. Yeah. And one quick point before we get to it. Yeah. Because you know, I when

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I do my own Bible study, I used to ESV and all that. And even with Dr. Walter, you know, he was talking about how

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Jehovah's Witnesses are well trained, even in just 90 days, they know how to respond to us if we like to use the

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King James, the new King James, the ESV, or the NIV, whatever, they know how to respond to us.

21:45

They are in they are trained with so many hours on how to respond to a Christian who's going to go to one of those translations, right.

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And of course, you and I will say, these are translations that are made with someone making an honest translation to the

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English language of their understanding of Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever it is.

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They believe that the New World Translation is the best translation. Okay. So we go, okay, great.

22:13

Let's forget what we call Orthodox Christian translations and go to your translation and see if we can see that Jesus is

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Jehovah God, like God the Father is. And I believe we can. Okay. Excellent. And just one other thing in regards to translations, because the mindset of someone who's

22:29

Jehovah's Witness is that they mirror, I think they would very much have a restorationist ideology as far as, you know, the truth being lost.

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And on some level, Charles Taze Russell is the one who restored it. So, but when they're looking specifically at the

22:43

New World Translation, this isn't just a translation, but this is really a restoration of what was corrupted.

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And so regardless of what translation a Christian is using, the Jehovah's Witnesses are going to have a mindset that they're using a faulty translation or something that's altered, but they're kind of, they have the high ground with the

23:04

New World Translation. So showing from their own Bible in many ways, it's going to, on some levels,

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I want to say break their programming, but I think it's on some level that is true because that's just the nature of cult indoctrination.

23:19

This is how, regardless of the cult, you're always taught, you're given a superiority complex saying that you have the exclusive truth and no one else does.

23:27

Right. And well, let's look at their quote -unquote exclusive truth, and we're going to see that Jesus is Jehovah God. All right. So jw .org,

23:33

and you want me to go to the middle section of the library? Correct. Okay. And it's going to give you options to click on, and you want to go to online

23:40

Bible. Online Bible. Because they want their people to go to this website and go to their online

23:45

Bible. Now, just so you know, too, this is also, most people probably will go this on, say they're, they can pull out their phone.

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For example, go to jw .org. They probably, I'm assuming they probably have an app as well, too. But for this case, we're on the official website.

23:57

So we're here, online Bible. And where do we go from here? Go to the study edition. The first one that says

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New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Study edition. Okay. All right.

24:08

And now we're going to see 66 books and what they call the Hebrew slash Aramaic scriptures. And then we're going to see the

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New Testament. So the first thing that we're going to go to on their website is we are going to go to the book of Psalms.

24:23

Okay. There you go. And you're going to go to 102. Psalm 102.

24:29

Correct. Let's see if I can drag this down here. All on their website. We're not going to go to any of the translations that we would probably preach or teach from.

24:38

So we are at Psalm 102 in the New World Translation. Correct. So I'm going to ask you to read the first two verses for me, if you don't mind.

24:45

All right. So Psalm 102 says, Oh, Jehovah, hear my prayer. I'm going to ask you to stop already.

24:51

So the Psalmist who's writing this, who is this Psalmist talking to? He's talking to Jehovah.

24:57

Okay. He's talking to Jehovah. We're not going to assume anything, right? All we know is he's talking to Jehovah because he says, Oh, Jehovah, hear my prayer.

25:03

Okay. Fair enough. Please continue to read. Let my cry for help reach you. Do not hide your face from me in my time of distress.

25:12

Incline your ear to me. Do answer me quickly before I call. Okay. That's fine.

25:17

So that sounds like something that a human being should say to Jehovah. I mean, that, you know, let my cry for help reach you.

25:25

Do not hide my face. You know, I'm distressed. I need you to incline your ear to me. I want you to hear my prayer.

25:32

Oh, Jehovah. Okay. No problem. Please go down to verses 25 through 27.

25:37

I wanted to establish that to demonstrate that the Psalmist is talking to Jehovah and saying things to Jehovah that us humans should say to Jehovah.

25:47

Let's see what he says in verses 25 through 27. Okay. So 25 through 27 of the

25:54

New World Translation says long ago, you lay the foundations of the earth and the hands are the work of your, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26:03

They will perish, but you remain just like a garment and they will wear out just like clothing.

26:09

You will replace them and they will pass away, but you are the same and your years will never end.

26:15

Okay. Thank you. I just want to be clear. Let's remember what you just read. This is the Psalmist.

26:21

You already get it. I know. You already get it. It is the first time ever. We're like really talking to you about this, but I'm going to leave it to you.

26:28

Yeah. So, so we see that according to the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, the

26:34

Psalmist is saying these things to Jehovah God.

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Long ago, Jehovah God, you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands, Mr. Jehovah.

26:45

They will perish, but you, Mr. Jehovah, will remain just like a garment. They will all wear out, but just like clothing, you,

26:51

Jehovah God, will replace them and they will pass away. But you, Jehovah God, are the same and your years will never end.

26:58

Can we please go to Hebrews chapter one? Still in their Bible. Let's go to Hebrews in their

27:03

New Testament and go to chapter one. Okay. And we'll just head, I'm assuming we'll just head back here. So book of Psalms, table of contents.

27:11

Yep. Go down. And I want us to remember what we just read as we go to Hebrews, the first chapter.

27:21

Okay. So here we are in Hebrews chapter one of the New World Translation. Where do we go from here? We're going to go to verse number eight.

27:27

Okay. And for those that don't know, you know, the Hebrew writer, the

27:32

Hebrew writer does go, I think it was Google Chrome. So it was going to be bottom to the right.

27:40

So in Hebrews chapter one, you know, we see that the Hebrew writer is saying things that God, the father, that Jehovah God doesn't say to the angels.

27:51

And then in verse eight, can you read verse eight for me? But about the son, he says.

27:56

Okay. So, and then it says, God is your throne forever and ever. I actually could use this, but we won't right now. I just want to point out that Jehovah God is speak according to the

28:04

Hebrew writer who I believe they'll say is Paul. I don't get hung up on that. But about the son, who is the son?

28:14

According to, according to the watchtower. He's a, yeah, he was, he is one of Jehovah's, he's

28:19

Jehovah's first creation is Michael. Yeah. But that's Jesus as well. That's Jesus. So, and they'll say that they'll say about the son.

28:27

Yeah. He's Jesus about the son. Here's what Jehovah says. So we see God is your throne.

28:32

I won't go there, but we will go down to verses 10 through 12, because when we get to verses 10 through 12, there are going to be quotations.

28:40

According to the Hebrew writer who is writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit. The Hebrew writer says that God, the father who is

28:49

Jehovah God, God, the father says this about Jesus. Can you please read verses 10 through 12?

28:55

This is what Jehovah God, according to Jehovah's witnesses says about Jesus, the son, what does he say?

29:03

It says, and at the beginning, Oh Lord, you lay the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the works of your hands.

29:10

They will perish, but you will remain just like a garment and they will all wear out and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed, but you are the same and your years will never come to an end.

29:26

For those who did not catch on, please rewind this and really catch this.

29:32

I'll explain this slowly. We went to Psalm number 102. We saw that the

29:38

Psalmist was talking to Jehovah God. That's what he said in verses one and two, verses 25 through 27.

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The Psalmist said things that is nearly verbatim to Jehovah God.

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What Jehovah God is now saying to the son in Hebrew chapter one, verses 10 through 12.

29:56

So when, so when the Psalmist is saying, Hey, uh, Jehovah, uh, the heavens are the work of the hands.

30:03

Long ago, you laid the foundations of the earth. They will perish, but you will remain. It's fascinating that Jehovah God, who they say is

30:12

Jehovah God says that Jesus, he's, he's so, so here's, here's what

30:18

I want to point out that according to their Bible, the Psalmist was talking to Jesus. This isn't just Orthodox Christianity in their own

30:25

Bible, in their own Bible. We see that this is Jesus being Jehovah God, because that's who he is.

30:32

That's who he always has been. And that's who the Holy Spirit revealed Jesus to be. And even a

30:38

Bible cannot completely hide that. That's huge. So in their theology though, they believe that Jesus is

30:45

Jehovah's first creation. He's Michael the Archangel, but then they would, they would articulate or argue that they co -created together and that's where they'll go to Proverbs eight, for example, that talked about, you know, the person who

30:58

I worked alongside that that's what they'll adhere to though. Correct. As far as creation, as far as the creation of the world, right?

31:04

Right. Okay. I just find that interesting because in this is talking about at the Lord, you lay the foundations of the earth, but they'll use that sometimes to make a distinction between the father and the son and saying the father

31:16

Jehovah, and he's just his first creation. But in that very proof text, according to them, it's quoting from the actual

31:22

Psalm that labels Jesus as Jehovah. Correct. Correct. Absolutely. What, so what you, this is now, this is not just, this is not just an idea on your hand.

31:34

This is something you've actually done when you've talked to Jehovah's witnesses. What's the response to this? What's the response when you talk to someone and what, what do they do here?

31:43

Man, I'm not, I'm not trying to listen. I am not the world's best debater, but this is, this is the honest to God truth.

31:51

When I present this to Jehovah's witnesses, I really don't get nothing to be honest with you.

31:57

I can't even articulate the amount of nothing that they say. I don't want to sound disrespectful.

32:03

One response that I got was really what you just said that, well, you know,

32:09

Jesus is created. So it was totally fine for him to create these things. This is basically the father saying that he created a creator who has the authority to create things.

32:22

So that's the most compelling response that I've gotten to it. But of course, I think that that is debunked by the fact that the

32:29

Psalmist was attributing this nearly verbatim to Jehovah. And then the father, then the father says the exact same thing to Jesus.

32:40

But even if they want to take that argument and we just concede that point, I have another one.

32:45

I have another one that I think completely debunks that. All right. I'm happy to go there. Let's go to Jeremiah chapter 17.

32:51

Ooh, actually I have one question. Maybe unless, unless you're going to explore this later, because I know this is an issue that's, you see it right here in the

32:58

New World Translation. And this comes up a lot as well too. So in Hebrews chapter one, verse six, and it's talking about as is written, let all the angels worship him.

33:09

They translate it, let all of God's angels do obeisance to him. So what they're trying to explain, this is,

33:16

I remember having a conversation with someone one time who's a JW, is that they're trying to say all the angels sort of give this like reverence, like you'd give reverence to a king or to the president.

33:28

Yeah, exactly. It's not worship. It's just a whole lot of respect, which is different.

33:33

What have you dealt as far as this goes? I mean, since we're here, unless you want to do that later. Well, with this, I'm not a

33:39

Greek scholar. So I just report what Greek scholars have said, which is that there is absolutely no basis for them to change that actual word.

33:47

I actually did an episode with Rob Bauman on my podcast, sort of walking through texts just like this and John 1, 1, you know, texts like that, where they clearly intentionally change it for the purposes of their doctrine.

34:02

And he talks about how that doesn't make any sense in the Greek, even if you want to try to give them any benefit of the doubt.

34:08

Gotcha. But in this case, the tactic isn't, I mean, that's another different tactical approach you can talk about with someone who's a

34:15

Jehovah's Witness. But in this case, we're talking about using their own translation.

34:21

Let's assume their translation is true. And I think we already showed that Jesus is

34:26

Jehovah God, even if we accept all of their changes. And we got another one. So we got so that this was that was the last one we showed with that was the first jab hook of sorts.

34:35

What's the next tactic we have here? Let's go to Jeremiah chapter 17. Jeremiah chapter 17.

34:41

Go to table of contents. Yep. Definitely a good biblical name for sure.

34:50

Yeah. Imagine that. I had, I had, I couldn't resist. So here we are. Jeremiah, what chapter again? 17.

34:55

Jeremiah 17. And then we're going to go down to verse 10. According to the New World Translation in Jeremiah chapter 17, verse 10, what does it say?

35:05

Jeremiah 17 verse 10 of the New World Translation says, I Jehovah am searching the heart. Wait, I'm asking you to stop.

35:11

Who's talking? Jehovah. Okay. So Jehovah is talking according to the New World Translation. Jeremiah chapter 17, verse 10, whatever we're about to read is

35:19

Jehovah talking. I Jehovah am searching the heart. Please continue. Examining the innermost thoughts to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his works.

35:33

My goodness. Now let's go to Revelation chapter two. And let's remember what

35:39

Jehovah said, because that was Jehovah talking. It wasn't Jehovah's little homie.

35:45

It wasn't Jehovah's partner. It wasn't Jehovah's cousin. That was Jehovah. So you're about to go to Revelation chapter two, and I would like for you to go down to verse number 18 in Revelation chapter two, verse 18.

36:00

And let's see what we see here in the New World Translation. All right.

36:06

To the angel of the congregation in Thyatria write, these are the things that the son of God says, the one who has eyes like a fiery flame and whose feet are like fine copper.

36:20

I'm asking you to stop. So this is about to give us a bunch of quotes, meaning someone said something.

36:27

Who was that someone who said these things we're about to read? According to verse 18, the angel of the congregation, the son of God says, right?

36:35

Yeah. These are the things that the son of God says. So according to this Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, we are about to read several quotes from the son of God, AKA Jesus, AKA Jesus.

36:47

So let's go down to verse number 23 and let's see what the son of God, AKA Jesus says.

36:55

And I will kill her children with deadly plague so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give you individually according to your deeds.

37:11

Now, this is what we just read in Jeremiah chapter 17.

37:17

Now in Jeremiah chapter 17, it says

37:22

I Jehovah am searching the heart. I Jehovah, I'm searching the heart, examining the innermost thoughts to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his works.

37:34

You went to Revelation chapter two, where we see, according to verse 18, that Jesus is the one talking.

37:41

So when Jesus talks, Jesus says that I will kill her children with a deadly plague so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost heart, the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.

37:56

Now here's the thing. First of all, I'm getting chills right now, even though I read this before.

38:01

So we already see that Jehovah said that he's the one who do something in Jeremiah chapter 17. And now we see that Jesus is saying that he does it.

38:09

But notice he says that I am the one who does this. He didn't say I'm also the one,

38:15

I do it too, which is what they might try to say in the last text that we'll go to, even though I don't think that argument works, but they'll try to say that.

38:22

Jesus also does it. No, he says, I am the one, which is interesting because in Jeremiah 17,

38:29

Jehovah said he was the one. Yeah. So here's, this is amazing. And this is, tell me if this, if I'm on a point, this is the illustration

38:37

I'm thinking of if then, and tell me if I'm, I'm, I'm off here. It reminds me because I, I mean, part of your background too, you have a background in just in the hip hop world as well too, and just like the whole music world.

38:47

So there have been times where there'll be like a legal case where let's say someone took someone else's beats or a part like without their consent.

38:56

So I'm thinking, for example, wasn't the hip hop artist, wasn't it Flame? He had a lawsuit actually that went against Katy Perry and they had to pay out because the dark, the beat to the opening part of dark horse is this like, but yeah, when you compare them together, it's like, if it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck.

39:12

So almost from like a legal case, you can see the commonality. It's like, oh, you took that from there.

39:17

They're interconnected. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. So almost it's like, I see a parallel to where this is a play by play role of the attributes according to the

39:29

Jehovah's witnesses of Jehovah. And now, admittingly, this is unequivocally the son of God doing the exact same attributes.

39:37

Come on. Yeah, come on, man. That is so true. And then here's the thing that I love that he said, because he said,

39:45

I am the one who does it. Now, from a Trinitarian perspective, that totally makes sense.

39:53

Right. If God the father ever says that he is the one who does it, and then Jesus at another time says he is the one who does it from a

39:59

Trinitarian perspective, that totally makes sense. Because although God is three distinct co -equal co -eternal persons, he is only one being he is one

40:07

God, which is why we created a term like Trinity to try to explain the complexity of this amazing

40:14

God that we serve. So this makes sense from a Trinitarian perspective, but from a Jehovah's Witness perspective where they're attempting to argue that Jesus is not

40:23

Jehovah God, clearly he is according to their text. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things too that I was talking to you just before the show is that a lot of not just Jehovah's Witnesses, they'll make an argument that the word

40:36

Trinity is not in the Bible. And now while there are specific proof texts that we can go to, like James White has a fantastic book,

40:43

The Forgotten Trinity, which really goes into a lot of these aspects, but a lot of the whole

40:48

Bible together, especially the New Testament, is just an assumption of the Trinity or the triune

40:54

God. So in the same way where a husband and a wife, with their interaction, if you do an audit, if you would subpoena someone's text thread between a husband and a wife, there's not going to be a lot of messages that say,

41:05

I'm your husband, I'm your husband, I'm your husband, I'm your husband, I'm your wife, I'm your wife, I'm your wife. There's an assumption within that text thread, if you're to look at it, of, you know, a relationship within the context of marriage, you know, maybe a little flirting back and forth, you know,

41:19

I can't wait to see you again, baby. But also, hey, did you drop the kids off at school? Are you going to pick them up from school?

41:25

Are we going to take them to soccer practice? There's an assumption of that relationship. So in the same way, in the

41:30

New Testament, a lot of what happens, especially even in the doxologies, there's a lot of interchanging the assumptions of the attributes of God, interchanging between the

41:40

Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. So it makes perfect sense as a Christian. And one last thing, this is so good, and maybe get your thoughts before we jump into the next example.

41:50

I think it's so important when we look at countercult apologetics.

41:56

This is not about us winning a debate. We're not going into this because some people might be like, look at these two examples, like, okay.

42:02

Anytime we do apologetics, we get tempted to do that. I know. I want to go and put on my Christian, my spiritual

42:08

MMA gloves and go find the next JW. But what Walter Martin talked about,

42:13

I think it was actually in the book, he mentioned tactics, who wrote that. It's like, the idea is like throw a pebble in their shoe that they can't think about.

42:21

And so what Walter Martin would talk about is he would say, I always want to plant seeds of doubt and allow the

42:28

Holy Spirit to do His work. I think that's a very, very important thing. So I think really when we look at this is,

42:34

I think you mentioned before, is say, think about this. I just want you to think about it. Just to want you to think about that, which is so great because they're taught not to think.

42:44

There's so many times when I was talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, it's almost, you'll have a time where you bring up something to them.

42:52

You can almost sort of see their head, like, start to think, but all of a sudden, then they go back into this robotic answer of what the watchtower tells them to say.

43:00

So the goal is not to say, hi, I totally refuted JW and now I can put up on YouTube, like, JW refuted.

43:06

The idea is like, these are real souls that need to know the Lord. It's the actual image bearer. Yeah, image bearer of the God that knows the news.

43:11

True living God. And they've been giving a counterfeit. So the idea is like, you want to go up there, ask them these questions, and then hopefully allow the

43:18

Holy Spirit to do its work. Yeah. And I hope we have time for three, but at least two. I want to go through at least two more if possible.

43:24

Yeah, we got plenty of time. Well, we're going to do, this is the first, just so you know, this is the first episode we're going to do. So we'll definitely go through some other tactics as well.

43:32

So we have two examples so far. What's another one we can do? Okay. I want to go to the Holy Spirit now. Okay. All right.

43:37

I want to go to the Holy Spirit. So we're going to go back to the book that you authored.

43:43

I'm just kidding, but we are going to, we're going to go to Jeremiah. Yep. And we're going to go to chapter 31.

43:52

Okay. So Jeremiah. So we've already gone through a couple of texts that demonstrate that Jesus is

43:58

Jehovah God, that the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible refers to Jesus as Jehovah God.

44:05

And now we're going to the 31st chapter and we're going to see the same thing.

44:11

So let's go to verses 33 and 34. And also mind you, as you go down to verse 33 and 34, this, we're also teaching just strong representations of the

44:25

Trinity in general. So this stuff is even more powerful when we use an honest translation of the

44:30

Bible. So if you go to the King James or the ESV or whatever, a true translation that you feel most comfortable with in your study, and you read these very texts, you see the triune nature of God even more emphatically.

44:44

So we're killing multiple birds with this stone here. So Jeremiah chapter 31 verses 33 and 34.

44:53

And I would like for you to read those two verses if you don't mind. So here we go. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after these days declares

45:05

Jehovah. All right. Hold on real quick. Who's declaring? Jehovah. All right. So Jehovah is declaring.

45:12

So there's about to be a couple more. So what Jeremiah just read, not Jeremiah, actually both.

45:27

The reader just read is quotes that came from Jehovah. And you are about to read more quotes that come from who they'll come from.

45:36

It comes from Jeremiah. No, it's actually coming from Jehovah. Oh yeah. Okay. So we got to kind of a topic.

45:42

Right. So these quotes that you are about to read are coming from Jehovah, because it is

45:48

Jehovah who is declaring. And then we see more quotes, which means that Jehovah is still declaring.

45:53

So can you please read the rest of verses 33 and 34 where Jehovah is declaring?

45:59

What is Jehovah declaring? Yeah. So all to say declare Jehovah and I will put my law within them and in their heart,

46:05

I will write it and I will become their God and they will become my people and they will no longer teach each one, his neighbor and each one, his brother, according saying no

46:19

Jehovah, for they will all know me from the least to the greatest of them declares

46:25

Jehovah, for I will forgive their error and no longer remember their sin.

46:30

You know, and that sounds like something Jehovah would say, right? No problem with that. Okay, Veda. Well, what's the big deal?

46:36

So Jehovah said, I will put my law within them and in their heart, I will write it.

46:42

Sounds like something Jehovah would say. Then we go down to verse 34, where Jehovah says, I will forgive their error.

46:49

Sounds like something Jehovah would say. I will no longer remember their sin. Sounds like something Jehovah would say. Okay, great.

46:54

I'm glad we all agree. Can we please go to Hebrews chapter 10 in the Jehovah's witnesses Bible? Hebrews chapter 10.

47:00

I think I know where you're going with this. And just so you know too, what I like, what you're doing here is the tactic and we can go in more to this.

47:07

I was mentioning the jab hook. I noticed you're starting in the old Testament and then working your way towards the new, which a lot of actually cultists go into error because they start with the new

47:17

Testament and then read backwards. And then they have a lot of misunderstandings realizing that you're actually looking at the incarnate

47:23

Christ when he's actually helping himself by taking on flesh, subtraction by addition. So it's always good, especially, maybe we can rattle this more when you actually understand the apologetic for the

47:32

Trinity. You start with the old Testament and then you work your way towards the new. That's the filter that you do.

47:38

All right. So here we are in Hebrews. Let's go here. So Hebrews chapter 10.

47:45

And again, we're on JW .org. This is not some sort of anti literature.

47:51

This is not an anti JW site. This is their website. So if you're, again, if you're going around and you see them, you know, you have friends who are

48:00

Jehovah's Witnesses or if they're out there on, you know, at a booth or, you know, if they ever end up coming knocking to the doors, if they ever start doing that again, apparently they've been taking a break due to COVID.

48:10

You can use their own website here. So here we are. Hebrews chapter 10, New World Translation. Yeah. And before we go there, everything that you said is so, it's so great.

48:19

And mind you, man, if the Jehovah's Witnesses wanted me to join them right now, these will be honest.

48:26

Like, listen, help me understand how this text don't, don't mean what it sounds like it clearly means.

48:34

Help me understand that. Help me understand that. Because we just read in Jeremiah chapter 31, that Jehovah said, according to their scripture,

48:42

Jehovah said, I will put my law within them and in their heart, I will write it. Jehovah said that, for I will forgive their error and I will no longer remember their sin.

48:51

And now you're in Hebrews chapter 10, you're about to go down to verses 15 through 17. Now, although they changed he to it, when it says something that the

48:59

Holy Spirit says, let's still see what the Holy Spirit says. Hebrews chapter 10 verses 15 through 17 says what?

49:06

Okay. It says, moreover, the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us for after it has said.

49:14

All right. So they said that the Holy Spirit is an it, but nevertheless, the quotes you're about to read is coming from who or what?

49:20

Yes. It's actually the quote we just quoted. Right. Right. But who's speaking though?

49:27

According to their Bible, who's speaking? The Holy Spirit. Correct. The Holy Spirit is speaking and verses 16 and 17 says what?

49:36

Says this is the covenant that I will make with them. That I will make. So the Holy Spirit will make this covenant.

49:42

Wow. Keep reading. Make with them after those days, says

49:48

Jehovah. I will put my laws in their hearts and in their minds. I will write them.

49:54

Then it says, so then the Holy Spirit, they're calling the Holy Spirit an it, but then the Holy Spirit says, and I will no longer call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind.

50:05

Wow. So the Holy Spirit is saying what Jehovah just said. This only makes sense if the

50:13

Holy Spirit is Jehovah, which from a Trinitarian perspective, it does make sense, which is why we worship and we praise the triune

50:20

Lord. Yeah. From a Jehovah's witness perspective, you're contradicting yourself. I thought you said that the

50:26

Holy Spirit was a force, but this isn't saying that Jehovah God said this through his force.

50:32

This is saying that the Holy Spirit actually said these words. And what the Holy Spirit said is

50:38

I will put my law. The Holy Spirit has a law and he will put that law on those human beings hearts and on the minds of those human beings and the

50:49

Holy Spirit will write them. But Jehovah said that he was going to do this. It must mean that the Holy Spirit is

50:54

Jehovah. Well, not even that. I mean, that's so good, man. But also how does an impersonal force even communicate to begin with?

51:04

I mean, language communication, just basic etymology. And I don't know the whole philosophy of etymology behind someone who's a

51:11

Jehovah's witness, but the idea of revelation or communication from Jehovah would assume personhood.

51:19

How does an it communicate the words of Jehovah that's just an impersonal force?

51:24

Great question. That's a question that I have. Yeah. And I think that's something where you just want them, get them to think, but specifically that's so powerful because again, you're seeing that the very thing that the

51:36

Holy Spirit is declaring is what Jehovah initially said in the Old Testament. Right. And the

51:41

Holy Spirit is declaring it. The Holy Spirit isn't saying, Hey y 'all, Jehovah said this or Hey y 'all,

51:47

Jeremiah, the prophet knew this because I told him what Jehovah said or no, no. The Holy Spirit said,

51:53

I said this, me. It was me who said it, the Holy Spirit. But we just read that Jehovah said it, which means that the

52:01

Holy Spirit is Jehovah. Praise the triune Lord. Hallelujah. I love it. I love it, man.

52:07

Hallelujah. So in this example is that when you've brought this up specifically about the Holy Spirit, what has there been anything that they've kind of brought up or they, are they just kind of scratching their heads saying, we're going to get back to you on that?

52:19

It's usually, I'll get back to you. Usually turns to insults from my experience. It doesn't mean that next time

52:25

I have a conversation like this with a Jehovah's witness, that it won't go different. I'm answering your question about what has happened thus far.

52:31

Usually if it gets this far, I'm already Satan. I'm devil and these types of insults and I'm not listening and things like that.

52:42

So, you know, I just, Hey, look, I just go, Hey, I just have an honest question or I'm asking too many questions.

52:49

Oh, you're the devil. You're not really asking questions. You're really trying to, you know, convert and woop de woop and all of this stuff.

52:56

That has been my experience thus far. Got you. But when I, when

53:01

I study, I do my best to try to understand, you know, to try to understand what a good argument or a thoughtful argument might be from my opponent.

53:12

I don't see, I can't imagine anything from these texts. This is Jehovah speaking. Now one might go, one thing that I thought of, and they never said this to me, but this is something that I thought of when we read

53:23

Hebrews chapter 10 verses 15 through 17, it does say, says Jehovah in Hebrews.

53:29

So I can imagine them going, all right, well, this is the Holy Spirit saying that Jehovah said it.

53:35

But, but still, even if they try to take that, the next part still says that the Holy Spirit is the one talking when, when, when it says that I will put my law in their hearts and in their minds,

53:45

I will write them. And then the Holy Spirit says, I will no longer call their sins and their lawless deeds to mine.

53:50

So that's clearly, even if they try to remove the first part, because they're saying that the Holy Spirit said that Jehovah God said it, the

53:58

Holy Spirit is still saying the second part, which is still what Jehovah said. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah. That's just what the

54:04

Bible says, man. Right. And, and, and, but they, they can't get away from their pre -commitment that Jehovah is

54:09

God. Correct. And all of a sudden it's like, it's almost like, it reminds me in a sense to where of watching like a

54:17

UFC fight where the two guys are squaring off and all of a sudden, all of a sudden somebody gets tagged really, really bad.

54:23

And in desperation, you know, they're doing like a, they try and do a double leg takedown, not because that's a good tactic, you know, that they can take this person to get on the ground.

54:31

That's all they can do. Cause they know, cause they know if I've been tagged really bad, I'm wobbling.

54:37

And if I stay toe to toe, I'm in huge, huge trouble. But also I want to emphasize something as well, too, as when we've flown by right here in part one is that one of the things you mentioned a couple of times where people are saying, you know, calling you

54:51

Satan and just sort of attacking you personally at hominid arguments. This is something as well, too, when you're talking with someone who is a cultist, a lot of times they're taught that anyone who opposes them in any way is part of the kingdom of Satan or they're in opposition.

55:07

So you're, you're going to have to deal with that. So, you know, one of the things Walter Martin said, the key to witnessing to the kingdom of the cults is that you have to run the risk of being hated by the very people that you are talking to in order that they may be born again.

55:21

One of the examples too, uh, there's a great example where Walter Martin actually walked into the headquarters,

55:26

I think in New York of the watchtower a long time ago and a while back. And he went to the guy right at the front desk and started arguing him for two hours.

55:36

And the guy got to the point where he was blood red in the face and, and got security and kicked him out of the building and said, don't come back here at all.

55:42

And then finally, and this is what I played that one of the clips from we'll play in the next episode is, uh,

55:49

Walter Martin, there's a guy who comes up and basically says, uh, says, Walter Martin, do you recognize me?

55:55

And then he's like, no. And he goes, oh yeah, a couple of years ago you, uh, came up to me and I was so mad.

56:01

I wanted to throw you out. Well, you said two or three things that I could not get out of my head. And I just,

56:07

I couldn't, I couldn't get away from it. And I finally, I figured I had to go through a Bible to refute you. And turns out

56:14

I couldn't and I B and I got saved. I got born again, you know? And that's, and so that's an example too, where you gotta be willing to risk taking some punches.

56:23

I mean, you may be hated. People might get upset at you for what you initially said, but you never know like what

56:31

God is doing. So there's even times too, where, you know, a lot of people misunderstand when there's videos of us, you know, doing evangelism or any, or if it's someone who's out there talking to Hebrew Israelites, a lot of times those conversations are intense, but you're just out there preaching the truth, but there's always,

56:47

God's always doing something. And that's a huge key to talking to cultists. Yeah, that is so true. So true.

56:53

And it's also encouraging because we really have to remember we aren't doing this for us.

56:58

You know, we're doing this as evangelists. You know, we recognize who the

57:03

God is that saved us and we want to spread the gospel.

57:10

So whether someone is part of a cult or they're just agnostic and don't really care, either way, that can be a tense conversation, but we care about their souls, right?

57:20

We care about this. We care about their eternity, whether they live to be 44 or 544.

57:26

That does it, that blips on the radar compared to eternity. We care about your eternity.

57:32

Exactly. You know? Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, let's do this. We got a couple more things to jump into. We just, we flew right on by.

57:39

So we're going to go ahead and jump into, we're going to go and wrap things up here and we'll jump into part two. That will, that will appear next week.

57:45

So if you guys enjoyed this podcast, I definitely know what you thought. And, and also again, if you check this episode out on YouTube, we'll be actually going through the

57:54

JW .org website, but honestly you could just, you could figure it out yourselves, but we hope you found this tool very, very effective.

58:01

So all that being said, thank you all for listening in and we'll talk to you all next week on Cultish, where we enter into the kingdom of the cults.