July 14, 2023 Show with Jamison Hardy on “Pastoral Leadership: Shepherding & Caring for God’s People”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this

14th day of July, 2023.

And before I announce my guest today and the theme that we will address, I just have

a breaking news report, which is especially important to me since I am a native Long

Islander, lived in Long Island all my life, or should I say on Long Island all my

life, until 2014 when I relocated to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

But an arrest has finally been made of a suspect for the infamous

Gilgo Beach serial killings on Long Island, a cold case from over a decade ago,

and the murders are believed to go back possibly two or three decades.

And the suspect, a New York City architect, lives only about 10 minutes from my

former home on Long Island.

So I will be letting you know about updates on this case.

I may even have a former homicide detective who is a Christian

from Suffolk County, Long Island, on the program in the near future.

That has not yet been confirmed, but I will give you updates as I hear them myself, and you

will likely also see them on your own televisions.

I think this is making national news.

But I am so thrilled to have a first -time guest today.

In fact, you might even want to take the opportunity to call, text, or

email, or however else you communicate with those that you love these days, and let

them know, especially if they're Lutherans.

You might want to let them know that Jamison Hardy is my guest today, who is the 21st president

and bishop of the English District for the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, and

he is associate pastor of Our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland,

Michigan.

And today, we're going to be addressing his book, Pastoral Leadership, Shepherding and Caring for God's People.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio, Bishop Jamison Hardy.

Thank you, brother.

Well, it's great to have you on the program.

Why don't you tell our listeners about Our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland, Michigan.

Yeah, thank you.

Our Savior Lutheran Church and School is a member church of the English District of the Lutheran

Church, Missouri Synod, a confessional and liturgical congregation off of

59 there in Heartland, a great group of folks concerned about

proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, the love of the Father through His Son, and also being

engaged in life in witness to Christ as well as in the public square

and in all that we do in our vocations where we serve.

And so, just a blessing to be a pastor there at Our Savior with Pastor Chris Thomas, senior pastor, and

serving God's people there.

Yeah, and in fact, I have the honor and privilege of interviewing Christopher Thoma, your pastor,

next week on Thursday, the 20th of July, God willing.

And I'm looking forward to that as we discuss his book, Ten Ways to Kill Your

Pastor.

And folks, that is not an actual blueprint or plan on how to actually

murder your pastor.

It's warnings about how you are possibly doing things that will

ultimately kill your pastor so that you will cease doing those things.

But I hope that you mark your calendars for that and tune into that program.

Before we even go into your personal testimony of salvation, which is something that we always do with

first -time guests, perhaps you can give a disclaimer

or a further clarification of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

There are many people in evangelicalism from all stripes

of theological backgrounds and denominations who are very ignorant of the

Lutheran Church in general.

And when you mention Lutheranism to them or any particular Lutheran minister or church,

they wrongly associate you with the

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which

is also called ELCA and is also notorious for being a very left -wing and,

dare I say, apostate group.

And many of us around the country, if not around the globe,

were appalled recently when it made the news when an ELCA female minister

performed or, should I say, recited a

blasphemous, grotesque, and vile creed that she called the

Sparkle Creed.

Perhaps you were familiar with it.

Oh, I am.

Yeah, if you could please distinguish yourself and the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod,

from that horrific group.

Yeah, I appreciate you asking about that, Chris.

Even to this very day, about 1 o 'clock this afternoon, my eldest son sent me a

text with a link to that Sparkle Creed.

He had just heard it, and I would love to just share with you what he said.

He goes, Dad, this is why I spend so much time defending our church, because people do not

understand we are not them.

Yeah, the distinction is very simply this.

There are three mainline, many more overall Lutheran Church bodies, but three mainline,

ELCA, ELCA being the largest, Missouri Synod Lutheran Church being the second largest, and the Wisconsin Synod

Lutheran Church.

And sadly, I will say, the root of Lutheranism, faith in the

pure gospel of Jesus Christ, by faith alone, in the pure gospel alone, by God's grace alone we

are saved, is the foundation for, quote, unquote, Lutheranism.

Many, many years ago, the ELCA started floating towards a much, much more liberal

understanding, and I'll be just as bold as you to say an apostate and

heretical position on many, many topics, not the least of which is doing the very thing that

the Bible says not to do, and that is change the Word of God.

I think the ELCA also is more concerned about popularity rather than they are

to biblical fidelity and confessional integrity.

And that's what the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod prides ourselves on.

We believe that the Bible is God's Word to his people unchanged.

We hold to the inerrancy and the infallibility of the original Greek and Hebrew, and we hold to the

clear gospel witness that Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, both God and man, born

of a virgin, came into this world, died on the cross, rose from the dead, descended into hell, and

conquered sin, death, and the power that Satan has.

And that is, you know, really traditionally the Lutheran understanding.

Being children of the Catholic Church and the Reformation of Martin Luther, the gospel is the central

focus, you know, the grace of God through the merits and works of Christ alone.

And yeah, you know, Chris, it really is problematic in my life because I'll be on planes traveling

all over the 21 states that the English district covers, as well as Canada, the Ontario province of

Canada, where I have a number of churches.

And people will often, when they find out what I do, they'll ask me questions like, Are you those Lutherans?

And my answer is, by the grace of God, never will we be.

Praise God for that.

And I can recall decades ago, I was at the Philadelphia

Conference on Reformed Theology, which is a Calvinist conference.

I happen to be a thoroughgoing Calvinist and Reformed Baptist.

But I remember seeing in attendance, I think it was on the registration line, a

gentleman with a clerical outfit on and clerical collar, and

I just greeted him and said, Where do you pastor?

And he leaned forward and whispered, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

I said, Really?

And he said, There are some of us who are still believers, a tiny remnant, but we do exist.

So I guess there are like many denominations.

I even recently interviewed a pastor, believe it or not, in the United Church of Christ,

who is a thoroughgoing Bible -believing Christian, but he is in the process of leading his congregation out

from among them.

So that is also good news.

But you'd be shocked sometimes, folks, when you do find a Bible believer,

even a pastor in a very left -wing and even apostate denomination.

And I hope that most of those men eventually make every effort to leave those groups.

But if anybody who either lives in Heartland, Michigan,

or is passing through there, visiting there, or if you have family, friends and loved ones there, I would

recommend that you look up their website so that you can visit this

congregation.

And that website is OurSaviorHeartland .org.

OurSaviorHeartland .org.

And by the way, am I pronouncing Heartland correctly or is it Heartland?

Yeah, it's Heartland.

I mean, it's just Heartland.

You know, it's ironic because when I was a young boy, I grew up at St. Matthew's in Westland, Michigan,

and I was attending up in Flint, which is north of Heartland.

And as a young eighth grader, Our Savior in Heartland used to have a building close to where

we are now.

They had a carpeted gym.

And as a young boy, I competed in basketball in the old church gym, and now I'm a pastor of that

church.

So it's really a small world we live in, and Lutheranism really is a small place when it comes to connections.

Yes.

Well, as I said earlier, we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest provide for us a summary

of their salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere, if any, in which they

were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that

drew them to himself and saved them.

And I'd love to hear your story.

Yeah, well, thank you.

You know, being Lutheran, I was born into a Lutheran family

in Bay City, Michigan.

And as such, we believe that in infant baptism, my mother and

father brought me to the waters of holy baptism as a young child and was given the gift of the Holy Spirit

there in the sacrament of holy baptism.

And I grew up in a family, in fact, an extended family.

My great -grandmother had six children, and those six children averaged three

children, and then my father's generation averaged three children, and now my generation.

And at my confirmation in eighth grade, at my confirmation, public confirmation,

my grandmother, who was a German speaker still, was sitting in the front row.

And my pastor, Ralph Fisher at the time, could speak German, and he spoke to her, and they had a

conversation how at that time, my great -grandmother was responsible for 176 direct

descendants, either children, grandchildren, or great -grandchildren in the church.

And so for my family, faith is kind of a legacy in terms

of, you know, parents bringing their children to hear the Word of God.

And we believe very firmly in the sanctity of life as well.

And, you know, from the very moment of conception, we encourage our mothers,

especially carrying children, to be in the house of God.

Testimony to that is Mary, the mother of Jesus, visiting John the Baptist.

And the biblical text there, as you know, says when she entered the room, the baby within leaped for joy at the

presence of the Savior.

Amen.

And so, you know, the idea that faith in my family has always been legacy -driven

from the perspective of it's an expectation that we participate in

our life of faith.

And I'll say again, too, when it comes to my life in faith, it is a life in faith, not a

Sunday morning activity.

Faith is not something that rises up when the bells toll at church.

It is something that we live with on a day -to -day basis.

We live under the grace of God.

And for me, you know, I've just been a faithful child of God by the grace and power of

the Holy Spirit since very, very early on in my life.

And so, you know, that's the glory of being in the church.

Now, when did you realize that God had placed a call upon your life to become a

pastor, and not only a pastor, but eventually a bishop?

That's a great question.

My pastor told me in third grade that I was going to be a pastor, and I told him, never.

I'm going to play football for the Detroit Lions.

And thank God that didn't work.

And that could only be because you live in Michigan and for no other reason.

I mean, I wish—I mean, that would be a great story if I could tell you I played for the Lions.

But I'll get to my Lions connection in a second because it's pretty cool.

He told me in third grade, and so I went to Concordia University in Wisconsin, where I was a two -time national finalist

wrestler, captain of the team.

And last—October 21, by the way, I was inducted to the Hall of Fame for wrestling.

And so it's one of our church colleges.

And currently, Concordia, Wisconsin, is owner and has a second campus here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, at Concordia

University, Ann Arbor.

And I went for teacher education.

So I have an undergraduate degree in broad field social science.

I was going to be a Lutheran high school teacher.

And I've had people ask me that question, Chris, you know, when did God give you the call?

And I said every time he called, I hung up.

And I just—it was never—there's no dramatic, emotionalistic kind of

revelatory moment except this.

I was doing youth ministry at Concordia, Wisconsin, my sophomore year in the summer.

And I was the designated driver from this perspective.

I got an hour nap because we did these overnight lock -ins, right?

So I got an hour nap so I could drive us back to the university.

And I got up from my hour nap, and we were driving back to the university early in the morning.

My colleagues were all sleeping.

And I realized I did not want to do this the rest of my life, meaning youth ministry, you know,

lock -ins.

And it just wasn't the gift God gave me.

And I thought to myself, what can I do to still serve?

And I kind of realized that God gave me the mouth and he gave me the heart and the mind and

that he wanted me to use my gift in proclamation of the gospel.

And so from my junior year at college forward, I wasn't pre -seminary.

I was teacher education, but I knew I was going to the seminary.

And so I enrolled at Concordia University—excuse me, Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

And my senior year, I became a part of the pre -seminary group.

So I was not in that school at the university, but I was brought in when all the

recruiters were there.

So, yeah, my revelatory moment was very minor in that it was just

that I realized what I was doing in terms of youth ministry was not what God wanted me to do in becoming

a pastor was.

And it goes back to my third grade year when Pastor Fisher said, you're going to be a pastor.

He planted the seed and the Holy Spirit watered it.

And by the way, I'm joyful to say I was his 38th disciple that went to the seminary

and he passed.

I have six that I've gotten so far at age 50 to the seminary, and I'm well behind my

pastor.

But by God, I continue whenever I visit my churches to see young men and to say to them, the Spirit rests on

you.

When are you going to go to the seminary?

And he did it to me, and I try to do it for others because the revelation for me was later on in life when I realized, yes,

I am doing what God is asking me, and he gave me these skills to be able to do this.

Now, how did you become a bishop?

In fact, I didn't even know until fairly recently

that Lutherans had bishops.

I had an interview, I can't remember how long ago, it wasn't that long ago, with Matt Heisey

of the Lutheran Heritage Foundation on his book, The Gates of Hell.

And during that discussion, he had mentioned Lutheran bishops, and I didn't even know that you

guys had them.

So why don't you tell me about how you became a bishop, and what would your function and roles be?

Well, yes, and you correctly, at the beginning, I am president and bishop.

And there's 35 districts in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod, most of which are geographical.

My district is non -geographical.

And how me, the English district, and the SELC district of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod are non

-geographics.

And here's how it happened.

In 1911, the English -speaking Synod was a mission of the

Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod for about 15 years before.

And like good Germans, of which I am, heritage -wise, Germanic,

they wanted the gospel to be spoken to English people, but they didn't want English people in their churches.

So they created this English Synod, where they spoke the church gospel in English.

Well, in 1911, after much debate and many synodical conventions where they said no, they

accepted the English Synod in as a district, or in the Catholic terminology, a diocese,

an adjudicatory of the body.

And so since 1911, we've been a district of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod.

And every three years, we have elections for officers, and they elect the president and bishop of the district, along with

vice presidents, treasurer, secretary, and all that stuff.

I was actually elected at 40 and a half years old to the position of bishop and president of the English district, which

is the youngest ever in the district's history, and at that time, the

second youngest ever in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod.

And it's done in a very electoral way, and nominations, and then the General Assembly elects.

But there are two districts in the Missouri Synod that officially call their district president, bishop, and president,

and it's mine, and then from your home area, the Atlantic District, which is the greater city of New

York in the lower southern part of New York City.

And so there's a big movement in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod to return to the biblical verbiage of

bishop as an overseer, not in a ecclesiastical authority way of saying,

Chris, you're a pastor, you're going to move over here.

I don't have that authority.

I have the spiritual responsibility for 157 congregations and all called

workers in the English district, and that is the ecclesiastical power that I have to be able

to put people on suspension if they're having issues and become

no longer above reproach, according to the New Testament.

But truly, I'm not like a Catholic bishop in that way.

I don't have authority over the properties of the congregations.

I can't tell my pastors where to go.

They get individual calls from congregations.

But it's a joy because my people understand me as the shepherd to the shepherds who shepherd the sheep.

And so I'm one of few district president and bishops in the Missouri Synod who also has a call

to be a pastor.

So as you articulated, I'm an associate pastor at Our Savior in Heartland, and I teach in the school

every week.

I'll be preaching this Sunday at Our Savior, but I'm on the road about 80 percent of the time.

So eight out of 10 Sundays I'm on the road.

And so it's just an ecclesiastical term, and I think people are starting to understand that it's better that we use the

direct words that the Bible uses rather than man -made words.

And so I'm the president of the Corporation English District, and I'm the bishop of the adjudicatory, which

is the body called the English District in the Missouri Synod.

Now, it might be also wise, just as I had you do earlier,

contrasting yourself with the Evangelical Lutheran Church

in America, which you and I agree is very leftist.

In fact, it is neither evangelical nor Lutheran,

nor would I really categorize it as a church either.

But another thing that people will commonly say to me

when I have any kind of a discussion where Lutheranism is brought up,

another thing that will be said in ignorance by many evangelicals is, oh, they're just

like the Catholic Church except their priests get married.

That's not the case either.

I know that especially two of the Solos of the

Reformation, of course Lutherans believe in all of the Solos of the Reformation, but the two that

Lutherans are known for championing, especially those who are in conservative Bible -believing Lutheran

denominations, are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

And those are both despised by the Church of Rome.

The Roman Catholic Church sometimes will give lip service to the other Solas as if they are in

agreement with them, but they could never be logically consistent if you were to pursue

a cross -examination with them on that.

But the ones that they clearly object to are Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

Why don't you pick up the ball there and contrast Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, with the Church of

Rome?

Yeah, well, let me first say about ELCA, you brought that up.

The truth of the matter is that you are right.

The despising of faith alone through Scripture alone

cannot be compatible, like you were saying earlier, with something like the Sparkle Creed.

And it cannot be compatible with openly homosexual lifestyle when God made them male

and female.

Now, I will say, not in disagreement in any way to what you said, but in maybe a little bit of a contrast to say this,

the Roman Catholic Church actually does have a confession in inerrancy of the

Scriptures.

Of course, of course.

But Sola Scriptura, though, is something that they openly reject.

Right, because they add the pontifical or the papal decrees as co

-equal.

And so, yeah, we don't do that.

I mean, we stick solely to Scripture alone, as it is written.

As I say, we hold to inerrancy of the original Greek and Hebrew.

And, you know, in terms of bishop power, the Roman Catholic bishops and, may I say, too, the ELCA

has bishops, and their bishops actually have authority over the property and over

everything in the Church.

And we believe in the Missouri Synod and what's called individual congregational autonomy, which means every congregation of

my 157 churches has individual ownership of their property, has the ability to make

deals, can add to, sell property.

All that can be done on their own, whereas in the Roman Catholic Church and the ELCA, that has to

be approved by the bishop.

And so that's a sharp contrast.

And when you start talking about faith alone, you know, this is a very important thing,

because in the social fights of our country today, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod's

greatest ally, by the way, is actually the Roman Church.

They are one of the few churches left that, with us, side by side, defend the sanctity of life,

marriage being between one man and one woman.

They still defend these very biblical and scriptural things.

And to be very frank with you, I told my people just a couple weeks ago, I can't even believe in this world

today that we are having conversations societally about the truth, excuse me,

about the theory that there's more than two genders, let's say.

The male and female.

And so when you're in an inerrancy Bible church, like we are, it's

catastrophic even in the mind to consider that there's a conversation that can be had

where that is even on the table.

And so you move to abortion now, right?

And you move to this whole idea of the, you know, the commandments of

Christ, thou shall not commit, excuse me, shall not murder the fifth commandment

in Lutheran tradition.

And, you know, there's no way around that, right?

And then you start getting into all these exceptions because people like exceptions because exceptions become the rule.

And that is what's happened in the ELCA.

Look, back in the 70s when the Missouri Senate had our great battle in 1973 over the inerrancy of

scripture.

If you were watching the ELCA convention about six or seven years ago, all the men at the microphone

arguing for these most liberal positions were all the guys that were annexed from the Missouri Senate in the early 70s

because they don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture.

And when you don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture, you get to a place where all of these things are not only

on the table, they're encouraged.

It's encouraged to fulfill every selfish human desire because why would God allow you to have that

desire if he didn't want you to fulfill it?

That is to say, eat yourself to death, you know, have sexual unions with people that you're not supposed to, have sexual

unions outside of your marriage between husband and wife, killing babies, stealing.

I mean, any number of things are on the table because when you throw out inerrancy, you

no longer have the law of God to guide you.

And that's where I think even Rome goes wrong.

Yes.

And while I agree with you that Roman Catholic individuals are often our allies

in the battles of social mores and

biblical ethics and so on, and we often vote for the

same people and so on. Their Pope certainly is not a reliable

individual that we would ever count on for being a voice for even the

social and moral issues of society as he constantly

declares a very weak position on homosexuality.

He gave the Roman Catholic mass to Nancy Pelosi, who

was denied the mass by her own bishop because of her views in favor of murdering

unborn children.

And we could go on and on and on about how Pope Francis is not only

not a Christian in his viewpoints and beliefs and practices, but he's not even

historically a Roman Catholic.

In fact, I heard a comedian say not long ago when

he said, the phrase is the Pope Catholic used to be a rhetorical question.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, look, Benedict, the previous pope, you know, he was much more confessional and conservative in

these views that you're talking about.

And I agree with you that the current pope is really weak, but it also leads back to

Luther's point about the office of the papacy is the Antichrist,

meaning that if you place your trust in the authority of one man in the

case of Roman Catholic Church to be on par with the word of God itself, you've already lost from

the beginning.

Right.

And that was one of the things that Luther walked away from when he walked away from the Roman Church.

He didn't just give up on everything that Rome had, including the liturgy and including some of

these very righteous things.

But he certainly said our allegiance is to God alone, to the word alone, by faith alone, in

grace alone.

And I appreciate you bringing up the Solos because they're the great Reformation banners.

It's the great context in which our church, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, was founded on.

Right.

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for my guest, Bishop Jameson J. Hardy.

Our email address is ChrisArnson at Gmail dot com.

ChrisArnson at Gmail dot com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA.

And since we are speaking about pastoral leadership and shepherding and caring for God's people,

I readily would understand that there might be people sending in personal and private

questions because of their need of pastoral care and perhaps their disappointment

with the way that they have been ignored in their church or not cared for.

Obviously, you would want to remain anonymous bringing up questions like that.

But if it's a general question, please just give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Bishop Jameson J. Hardy right after these messages from our sponsors.

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We're now back with Bishop Jameson J. Hardy, and we are discussing his book, Pastoral

Leadership, Shepherding and Caring for God's People.

Before I get into some of the contents of the book, what was it that compelled you to say, I

need to write a book on pastoral leadership?

Was it that perhaps colleagues in ministry were approaching you because they

were left feeling inadequate to care for their flock as they should?

Or was it congregants who were approaching you saying that they were not

having their needs met as a member of the flock?

What was it that was the main catalyst?

Yeah, well, I appreciate the question.

I mean, first off, the answer starts from kind of a

whole career desire to write a book on this.

In 2012, I finished four years of study to get a second master's in public

administration, leadership and finance, and I have a doctorate in business administration, leadership,

finance.

And to be very direct with you, Chris, all of the research that I did for my doctorate,

I got from the Reformed Church when it comes to leadership.

I know that would be pleasing to you, but it's the truth.

And, you know, some of the greatest stuff that I've gotten

comes from the seminary out in California.

And right this moment, I just drew a blank on the brother's name, who's the president.

But in any case, the leadership stuff we have in the Lutheran Church and Missouri Senate is

far and few between.

And in some really confessional circles, even the term leadership as a pastor

is taboo.

And so when you ask how did this come about, when I became bishop in 2015 and

now eight years later, I've just seen a lot of missteps and I've seen a lot of good

things.

And I've reflected on the lay people that I've had in my life.

And this book is a culmination of my experience, the experiences that I've seen with the

pastors I've served with, the lay people that I've learned from, and some of the greatest lessons

I think that I've learned in leadership have come from people that really don't even know they're teaching just by

the way in which they're going about doing things.

And so the premise of this book is very clearly this, pastoral leadership is pastoral care.

And that pastoral care element is not simply Sunday mornings.

That pastoral care element is, much like in my understanding of faith, is an ongoing

and a totality of the life of the pastor.

And so in order to be a good shepherd, one must be a good

pastor.

If you're not giving good pastoral care, you can really, in my opinion, never be a good pastoral leader.

And so it was just a culmination of a lot of things and a kind of life goal to write a book.

And how the book came about, by the way, is I was sitting with Jonathan Schultz, the president of CPH, Concordia Publishing

House, at one of our events, who I've known for a number of years.

And I just casually asked him, I said, when are we going to ever publish some good quality Lutheran leadership books?

And he smiled at me and he told me soon.

And about a week later, I got a phone call from his folks and we got a contract and got the details worked

out.

And I wrote the book and the book came out in June.

But it was kind of set up this way to come out right before the church body

convention, which is in two weeks.

And so two weeks ago, about a week and a half ago, I was in Milwaukee for the National Lutheran Women

Missionary League Conference in our church body.

And I signed the books there and we sold out of the book there at LWML.

And many people ask me, you know, the title is Pastoral Leadership.

Is this just for pastors?

And the answer is absolutely not.

Anybody who reads this book who's a lay person will get a glimpse into what the leadership

struggles are like for pastors.

The first chapter is about all the inadequacies that pastors feel.

And it's really I think it's designed to be kind of a Bible study thing with

reflection questions at the end of each chapter.

And the way that I decided to write it was was not an academic way in the sense of, you know, using

terminology and whatnot.

You'd have to go look up in a dictionary, but really just talk more like I preach a conversational style

of stories, examples and points.

And again, driven by my desire for pastors to to get better

at pastoral leadership, which means they have to get better at pastoral care.

And what would you say in your experience,.

Your friendships with colleagues in ministry, perhaps, or your conversations

with congregants in Lutheran churches?

What would you say are some of the areas of pastoral leadership

and caring for the flock that are most frequently

overlooked by church leaders, by pastors?

Yeah, well, first thing in the book, I talk about presence, right?

Physical presence.

And I think for a lot of pastors, they believe that if they're just in the building or if they're

at the dinner or if they're at the Bible study where they're not leading, that's all that matters.

Right.

And it's not.

I mean, I'll give you a quick story, brief story.

But I went to a congregational visit and the pastor of the church knew I was going to be there.

So he came five minutes after the celebration started and then he left about five minutes later.

So he's there for about 10 minutes.

And one of his lay men came up to me and he just said, Bishop, can I speak to you?

And I said, yeah.

And he goes, you know, I love my pastor.

He said, but it's very clear that he doesn't really care about us.

And I said, well, what do you mean?

And he said he never helps us do anything outside of Sunday morning.

Whenever he's here, it's the quickest thing he can do to leave.

And so I kind of got this sense and then I started paying attention.

And the guys in my church body that I have that are the best pastors are the ones that develop a one on one

relationship whereby the presence of the people they are with is

shown to be important, not just spoken to be important, but shown.

And I think that's really a very, very important thing.

This last Sunday, I was tasked with preaching at a congregation, happened to be my former congregation in Pittsburgh,

Peace Lutheran Church.

And the text for Sunday was the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to go get the one.

And this text is a special one to me because I had a moment in my ministry over 20 years of peace in McMurray,

Pennsylvania, where I had to leave my entire congregation on a Sunday morning to go after a member who had

strayed away.

And I know firsthand what that presence is like when you seek the lost and you

seek those who need a physician, Christ.

So, yeah, it's a culmination of a lot of things.

But really at the heart, I think lay people need to know their pastor cares and you can't just tell them you care.

You've got to be there to show them you care.

Yeah, I have witnessed being in Christian media for decades.

I have witnessed all too often that it is very apparent that there are

men who are in pastoral ministry.

And it's palpably obvious that their goal for becoming a pastor

and their passion and excitement over being a pastor is really so that they

can be a renowned and enamored and

looked up to and respected speaker.

It's as if when they are behind the pulpit and addressing the congregation, especially if they

have a radio or TV program or what have you, that's where

the pastoral role ends for them.

Perhaps they're involved in meetings with the other leaders when there's

going to be important decisions made behind the scenes.

But the actual shepherding aspect is very absent

very often with especially the largest, it seems, of ministries.

And I'm not broad brushing all large ministries.

But it just seems to be that's where that is a most typically witnessed tragedy.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things you bring about large congregations, one of the things in terms of

pastoral care is, you know, there's a critical mass number.

I like to say about 500 is you're getting towards the top end of how

many people one man can actually give real good pastoral care to.

And the bigger churches that get above 500 on a Sunday and like, how do you give real

pastoral care, which then gives pastoral leadership, if you don't get to know your people?

Look, I made a living on being in the homes of my people in my ministry.

In fact, can we pick up right where you left off when we return from our midway break?

Because we have to go to our midway break.

But please do not forget where we left off about the large church issue.

This is the longer the normal break, folks.

So please be patient with us.

Send in your questions for Bishop Jamison J. Hardy to Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com.

Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com.

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So we're going to be back after this break.

Don't go away.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia, again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd.

On a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

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Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to Lutheran Bishop Jameson Hardy as we discuss

pastoral leadership, shepherding and caring for God's people I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

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Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ -honoring, theologically solid,

doctrinally sound church like our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland,

Michigan.

Well, wherever you live on the planet Earth I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and I may be able

to help you find one as I have done many times with listeners all over the world in our audience.

Sometimes I've even found churches just a few minutes away from where our listeners live.

So if you are in that predicament you don't have a biblically faithful church home send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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That's also the email address where you can send in your questions to Jameson Hardy on pastoral leadership

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us a first name at least, city and state, country of residence, only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

We were talking about the fact that I had mentioned that in being in Christian media

for decades one of the things I have seen all too often occur is

that you have men who are making it obvious that their ambitions, their desires, their drive

to become pastors is so that they can become enamored and world -renowned

speakers.

And their shepherding doesn't really exist according to many people that have had

association with their congregations.

They are almost figureheads who teach and edify and maybe

perform a very valuable role but they are not really shepherding.

If you could pick up where we left off after I was mentioning that you were specifically talking about

the 500 member mark.

Yeah, let me clarify that so I don't confuse the listeners.

When I say 500, I'm talking about the congregational membership.

I think you get to a point about 350 on a Sunday in worship 300 to 350

consistently every Sunday in worship and I think that's the extent

that any one man has the capacity to shepherd and care for God's

people.

I mean from a physical standpoint there's just not enough of you to be able to give to the people when you get

above that membership number of like 500.

In fact, in some of our larger congregations I encourage congregations to

birth and start new ministries, new congregations with core family members

and smaller groups when they get that big.

The problem is most congregations when they get that big they got this kind of entitlement to

being large and what that brings with it.

I mean I was a pastor in Pittsburgh for 20 years had about 120 on a Sunday on average when we're

at our largest and you know a very comfortable size to know

your people to get to be a part of their lives and I think you cannot be a good

shepherd a pastoral leader or give pastoral care if you don't know your people

and knowing your people is far more than saying hello to them on a Sunday morning.

Well, one of the things, before I take any listener questions, one of the things I wanted to ask you about is

that.

Although the.

Bible is inerrant and does not have errors.

In it.

The leadership figures, the biblical figures in the Bible who are leaders since they are

individuals they have unique approaches to different

areas of ministry and if you could bring up some of the principle figures from the Bible that you

gleaned from and their different styles and approaches in your book Pastoral Leadership.

Yeah, I mean the whole first chapter are the leadership styles from biblical figures and in every case there's

some kind of a failure that I'm talking about but to your question I would start with in my

opinion the greatest leader of the Old Testament would be Moses and

Moses' father Jethro gave Moses the first business structure, the

first leadership structure that we had in the church when it comes to the judging if you remember the biblical

account where Jethro says to Moses, you can't judge everything and so they Moses developed this

tier system whereby only the most grandiose and large issues came to Moses

the lower decisions and arbitrations were between tribal

issues and the like, family issues.

Another one would be David.

David is a perfect example of how God can still use the broken

people, the vessels that he asked to be leaders.

Here you have David who takes Bathsheba's husband puts him on the front

lines of battle with the intention that he die so that he could now have

Bathsheba unto himself and here again, powerful leader in

David, courageous leader in David, fulfilled a sinful desire and yet God

still used him and so again, the first chapter of my book talks about all these leaders that God

uses and that each one of them had some kind of a failure or a handicap.

I mean, Isaiah had an unworthiness Peter had a over confidence

issue that led him to denying even knowing Christ.

Elijah he had discouragement in life.

Jonah was stubborn, ran away from God and so on and so forth.

Every biblical leadership example we have has a flip side to it of the

sinfulness of human behavior and desires and yet God still can use the gifts he provides for

his purpose.

Let me go to some listener questions before I ask my own.

Let's see.

We have an anonymous listener who says, in my experience in

mainline churches, even when they are of the conservative type

and bible believing one thing that is typically lacking in all of them since they

are typically so desperate for congregation members to remain there

because of their conservative and biblical stances they far too often avoid

church discipline.

They sometimes will take biblical passages about allowing the wheat

to grow together with the tares until the harvest as an excuse.

But I think that is a misuse of scripture and I think that lives can become shipwrecked when they are

not disciplined in the church.

What is your approach to this?

I think it's a great question.

I obviously cannot get into any specific disciplinary actions that I've had to take

pastorally or as a bishop, but I assure you I've removed men from the

office of the Holy Ministry for behavior unbecoming and for no longer being, as the New Testament in 1

Timothy says, above reproach.

I have put, along with my senior pastor and previously when I was by myself, individual members

on the lesser ban, refusal of the Lord's Supper as well as excommunication altogether.

And again, let's keep the focus here.

What is the purpose of discipline?

It is in hopes that the sinner repents.

And so, I mean, the idea that a church would look past the

behaviors because of the desperation they might have for membership or attendance, I can assure

you that this pastor, along with Chris Tome and my senior pastor, our congregation is not one of

those churches.

I mean, you know, we're 250 on average on a Sunday and any given week, you know, we have

people issues.

And the good pastoral leader who's giving good pastoral care understands that the law is used to

refine, much like the title of your show, Iron Sharpens Iron.

I mean, the purpose is to help the unrepentant to repent

and to bring them back to a relationship with God that is harmonious.

So I think it's important.

Discipline is, look, the Bible says God disciplines the one He loves.

The Father disciplines the one He loves.

Amen.

In fact, I don't know if you're aware of this.

I didn't tell you this personally.

You may have heard it if you listened to some of my other programs.

I was under church discipline over a decade ago and it saved my life.

I really believe that if I was not placed under church discipline by loving elders

of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, where I was a member before moving to Pennsylvania,.

I.

Would likely not be sitting here breathing air and

feeling a beating heart within my chest.

After 18 years of sobriety, when I first became a Christian because I was out

of control drunk as a teenager through my mid -twenties, but after 18 years of

sobriety, going through trials in my life, namely the illness and death of my late

wife, I returned to alcohol with a vengeance.

Now, I am a believer, as most Lutherans are and most theologically

Reformed Christians are.

I'm a believer in alcohol being a Christian liberty as long as it's not abused and as

long as people do not become drunkards and become enslaved to alcohol.

If they responsibly enjoy it socially and moderately, I am all in favor of other

Christians doing that.

I cannot do that.

I.

Know that my own personality and addictive behavior, and I wouldn't even test myself by

drinking alcohol even moderately because I don't believe it would end there, but

being placed under discipline, I really believe saved my life.

I just thought I'd throw that out there, and if anybody listening is coping and battling with an

addiction problem, I seriously recommend to you to investigate

hebroncolony .org, which is where I regained my sobriety.

It's a wonderful Christian organization in Boone, North Carolina, and it's also absolutely free.

It's hebroncolony .org, and I hope that you investigate this organization.

If you or someone you love is battling an addiction, they also have a facility for women

in Santee, South Carolina, and you can find that information at hebroncolony .org as

well.

By the way, Anonymous, if you send me by email, we're not going to divulge your identity

over the air, but if you send me by email, your name and full mailing address, you have won a free

copy of Pastoral Leadership, Shepherding and Caring for God's People, thanks to the generosity of

Concordia Publishing House, and also thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will actually be

shipping the book out to you at no cost to you or to us.

Let's see here.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, can you

spell out at least a summary of the most important roles, tasks, and duties of

a biblically faithful pastor?

Yeah, it's a really great question.

Number one, that in the life of a pastor, he must remain faithful to

the Word of God and utilize the Bible as the only source and rule of

faith and practice.

That's the number one.

The number two is understanding that caring for people

means you will get hurt and people will be angry at you.

My pastor, Ralph Fisher, used to tell me when I was a young boy, they're going to talk about you all the time.

Sometimes it'll be good, sometimes it'll be bad, but you, to me, as I was growing up in the ministry,

you've got to be confident enough in the gifts that God gave you to understand that they will talk about you.

Any good pastor that I've known is a man who understands that people are going to talk about him and doesn't

get overly bothered by it.

Number three, the order of importance in any pastor's life is God, family, church.

That is, God comes first, family second, and then church third.

I can give you a story after story where moments in my pastoral life, my family became

third and not second.

I had a phone call one time.

I was rocking my oldest.

This was many years ago because he's 23 now.

I was rocking my oldest to bed.

We said prayers.

We were in the rocking chair.

My phone rang.

So -and -so's dying, Pastor.

We need you.

I remember handing him to my wife like Superman in a phone booth.

I got my outfit on and I was out the door.

At that moment, my family did not become more prioritized than the church and my ministry.

Any good pastor knows that there are moments, not lifelong times, but moments when the

work of being a pastoral leader becomes more important for that given time.

The fourth thing I would say is perseverance.

The devil seeks out as a prowling lying to seek and destroy, to kill,

to lead us away from the mercy and grace of God.

The fortitude of a good pastoral leader is one who knows he's going to fail.

In his failure, he takes responsibility for it.

In the book, I talk about the fact that one of the greatest things you can do as a pastor when you make a mistake is own up to it publicly

in front of your people.

Number one, they cannot use it against you any longer because once you've been forgiven and absolved, the Father says, I

know your sin no more.

The second reason for why he should publicly confess and acknowledge his failures is to let the people of

God know he is just as human as they are.

I am not a special breed.

I'm not a clone.

I'm flesh and blood and I make mistakes on a daily basis.

The thing about me and I think any good pastoral leader is you work really hard not to make those mistakes over.

You make them, you apologize for them, you endure the embarrassment and the frustration, but you vow to

not do it again.

Those are three or four things that I would just say are really high priorities for pastors.

CJ, please send us your full mailing address so that we can ship to you, or should I say have cvvbs

.com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship to you a free copy of Pastoral Leadership, thanks to our

generous friends at Concordia Publishing House.

Just because of the fact you mentioned the phenomenon of people talking about pastors behind their back,

I just wanted to tell you a very quick joke that was told to me by Old Testament scholar

Bruce Walkie many years ago back in the 1980s.

He was a guest speaker at the church where I was a member and he said, let me tell you a joke about a guest

speaker at a church.

He said that after the guest speaker gave his message, he was standing by the back door as people were filing out

and he was greeting them as they were leaving and one man said to him, you know something, you are the worst

speaker I've ever heard in my life.

And he leaves.

And then the second day of the conference, the man, the speaker standing by the door sees that same man

in line and he's getting nervous uh oh, here we go again.

And then the man approached him when it was his turn in line and he said, you know something, I thought I was going to

give you another shot today but you are really horrible I don't even know why I'm here.

And he walks out.

On the third day of the conference, he sees the same man in line and he's like, I can't believe this guy's back.

The man walks up to the guest speaker and he said that's it I went against my

better judgment I thought I'd still give you another shot and hear what you had to say, but you are absolutely the most horrible

speaker I have ever heard in my life.

You are never going to see me in an audience again.

And the pastor of the church went up to the guest speaker to comfort him and said don't listen to a word that guy says.

All he does is repeat what everybody else says.

But we have, let's see here, a question from an anonymous listener.

Being in pastoral ministry, I was wondering how you separate the time

that you spend with your family from the activities of the church without violating your

responsibilities to both.

You actually were just bringing that up before, but maybe you could explain in more detail to this person.

Yeah, so it's really a great question.

I'll answer it with a really brief story as an example.

When I became bishop, we had a plan in place at my congregation, Peace Lutheran Church in McMurray, PA, to

call another pastor, associate pastor I would remain part -time senior.

During the interviews, this man said I work 38 hours a week, and when I hit

38 hours a week, I'm done because my family is the most important.

And I didn't say anything during any of the interviews until this man said this.

And I said, what are you going to do?

Stop working on Wednesday of Holy Week?

I mean, the point is you must make your family priority.

But any good pastoral leader knows there are seasons in a pastor's life.

Easter, Holy Week is one of those.

I mean, we have service every day.

Monday -Thursday is a high festival.

Good Friday is a high festival.

Easter Vigil on Saturday.

Sunday morning.

That week or that 10 days from Palm Sunday to Easter Sunday is full -scale

all day, every day.

The other side of the coin, by the way, is when I was a vicar, I had a fantastic vicarage supervisor, Rick Towns,

Brookings, South Dakota.

Our Savior in Brookings, South Dakota.

It was a great year of my life.

But I learned something from Rick that he was teaching me and didn't know he was teaching me.

And that was, you don't have to be in the church every moment of your life.

Saturday afternoon, my wife and I went to a movie one time and I saw him in his office, assuming he was preparing for his sermon.

But that's not the time to be doing that.

He has two kids and a wife.

You've got to be wise about this and know.

And I'm blessed.

I have a wife and three kids who love the church.

And so a lot of my life in the church, they are with me.

A lot of the events that I go to, they are there and they're a part of the life of the church.

But my wife knows when I go and I have to go confidentially because of confession or family

problems or whatever, she knows that I won't be gone longer than I need to be.

But I've proven that to her over 23 years of being a pastor.

So I think men must take an account of loving their family, loving God, and loving their church.

And they must build in time for family to be the priority, but the family must know there comes time when

the pastor's got to go do his job.

And sometimes that happens in the middle of the night.

Sometimes that happens for an extended period of time.

And sometimes that happens at a very awkward time.

But nonetheless, I think it's a priority in all pastors' lives.

Be vigilant.

That's what I would say.

Be vigilant.

Now you mentioned the term vicar.

I know that that is a common nickname, I believe, for Anglican ministers, especially in

the UK.

But where does that office or title come into play in Lutheranism?

Yeah, a vicar is no different than an intern in the hospital.

He is a student pastor preparing for ministry.

We have a four -year program, two academic years, one full year of vicarage where you're in

the church serving under a pastor, learning, and then you go back to the seminary for one more full year for

a four -year seminary program, graduating with a master's.

And I tell everybody, vicarage year is, in many churches, becomes kind of cheap labor.

We get a vicar.

He helps the pastor do a lot of things that the pastor is doing.

But I've got to tell you something.

Vicarage is designed to teach good pastors, to teach young men,

and second -career guys, how to be good pastors.

And like I said at the beginning, a lot of what I've learned over my life was taught to me by me

watching people, not by them lecturing me or directing me, but me watching good behavior and wanting to

emulate that.

One of the examples I would say to you, a layman, Mr. Keith Ferndak, who is CEO of Concordia

Lutheran Ministries in Cabot, Pennsylvania, $170 million company,

senior living company.

I've spent 23 years at his feet watching him.

In fact, in the book, in the back, I read a thank you to him.

For all of the many, many hours of leadership training that he's given me, where he never was training

me.

I just watched what he did.

And we talked, and I learned from behavior.

And I think good pastors understand that they're always in the eye

of the people.

They're always in the eye of the people.

And that means that everything they do is being analyzed, watched.

It's being emulated.

I find my young people when I teach religion in the school, I find my young people saying my

phrases, making comments that I make to them.

Every class I start out, I start out with the kids.

I pick a kid in the class and I ask them, what's your story today?

Well, they've picked up on what I'm talking about.

I'm not talking about some kind of a testimonial.

It's really more comedic to say, how are you doing today?

But I got my kids now stopping me in the hall saying, hey Bishop, what's your story now?

Well, we are going to go to our final break right now.

And if you want to get in line and have your question asked after those who are still

waiting in line have their questions asked and answered, please send in your question.

But I would urge you to do it immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA.

We'll be right back with Lutheran Bishop Jameson J. Hardy and our discussion of pastoral leadership

right after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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It's such a blessing to hear from Ironsharpensiron Radio listeners from.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Ironsharpensiron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Ironsharpensiron is Dr. Joe

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If you've been blessed by Ironsharpensiron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

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My name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the

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I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avenio and thanks for listening.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church

in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

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That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks, the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey is gcbc -nj .org.

Gcbc -nj .org.

The website you heard in that commercial is no longer functioning.

So go to gcbc -nj .org.

We are now back with the final segment of our interview with Lutheran Church Missouri

Synod Bishop Jameson J. Hardy on his book Pastoral Leadership.

We have another anonymous listener who says, do you ever consult

other pastors when you have reached a standstill amongst the leaders in your own church when

trying to either counsel an individual or discipline them?

And I know that the danger can be as I have personally experienced when the other church

goes against your discipline and welcomes that person, perhaps even unrepentant

into membership of their congregation.

Yeah, actually I lived that out in Brookings, South Dakota at our Savior Lutheran Church.

We put a man on excommunication where we excommunicated him from the church for adultery

and an unwillingness to repent and to cease the behavior.

We sent a letter out to all the churches.

Now granted, Brookings, South Dakota when the students are there at South Dakota State University is about 20 ,000 strong in the

community, but every congregation of every denomination in that small

town in Brookings, South Dakota upheld our excommunication.

That doesn't always happen.

And.

When it comes to consulting others, yeah, look, any good leader of

any kind, pastoral or business or anything, is going to have

people that they confide in.

To.

Toss things off of, to listen.

It's one of the reasons why I'm thrilled to be in a team ministry at Our Savior Lutheran in Heartland, Michigan

because we have the opportunity to talk to each other and to be the mutual consolation of the brethren

together to deal with things.

When I was by myself for 20 plus years in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, it

was just what it sounds like.

I was by myself, and so consulting with other people sometimes became hard because

they were in a situation where they had a different context, let's say, than I was in, and so

getting consolation from them and advice was difficult.

But I do think any good leader seeks advice, seeks information, and seeks

the ability to have opinions from.

Other people.

And Anonymous, you've also won a copy of Pastoral Leadership.

Make sure we have your full name and mailing address, so cvbbs .com and ship that out to you.

I think we have time for a final question, and the questioner is

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

I hope this isn't too far afield of your topic, but I was wondering if you enjoyed

Luther, the 2003 movie starring Joseph Fiennes, and if you believe it was

historically accurate.

I happen to love the movie very much.

In fact, I love the movie very much myself, but how accurate to your knowledge is it, if you've ever seen

it?

You know, I've actually, I have seen it, and there's a lot of great stuff in it.

It was a fantastic movie.

It depicted a couple things that I think are very relevant to pastoral leadership.

Luther, as he climbed the church stairs at Wittenberg on his knees, praying to Hail Mary, when he

got to the top of the stair and he turned around, that was the defining Holy

Spirit moment where he realized, I do not need to do things physically to

merit God's mercy.

It is the work of Christ alone.

And so I do think it's very accurate.

Luther didn't want to be a priest.

He wanted to be a lawyer.

He got caught in the storm and prayed to Saint Anne that she would save him so that he would dedicate his life to the service.

He constantly was controlling his flesh because he was not worthy.

So I do.

I think the movie is very accurate.

It's very good.

It defines the Reformation principles clearly, and I would recommend it to.

Anyone.

Well, you've also won a copy of the book.

Make sure we have your full mailing address, Ronald.

And I want to make sure that our listeners have all the contact information that they need

to find out more about my guest, Bishop Jamison Hardy.

First of all, the website for Our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church and School

in Heartland, Missouri.

Michigan, I'm sorry.

Heartland, Michigan.

Is oursaviorheartland .org.

Oursaviorheartland .org.

If you want to find out more about the book that we have been giving away, you can go to the website

of Concordia Publishing House, which is cph .org.

Cph .org.

And I want to thank you so much, Bishop Hardy, for doing such a wonderful job today.

I know already that I would love to have you back on the program if you share my enthusiasm over

this interview.

And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I hope you all have a very safe, joyful, and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.