Jesus Seminar Portrayed as “Biblical Scholarship” on Dateline

2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 602 2 7 4 13 60. That's 602 2 7 4 1360 or if you're out of the

Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 8 8 8 5 5 0 13 60 That's 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 and now with today's topic.

Here's James white Well, the gloves are coming off folks the hatred of the world for the

Christian faith They don't even bother to try to hide it much anymore I speak of the program this past Monday evening on ABC the search for Jesus as if somehow the real

Jesus had been lost the search for Jesus Peter Jennings two or three year expose

Investigation into the subject of the truth about Jesus Christ, which if you sat back and watched it in essence was

If you believe the biblical story You are a toothless camel jockey from Nazareth And if you're a scholar then you can see through all that traditionalist stuff and you are enlightened and you understand

The truth that was the basic message of what was presented to us We're gonna be talking about that particular program and I'm gonna provide you with some information

So which you probably haven't heard before here on the dividing line today, but first a little bit on the way of announcement

This doesn't help any of you who are listening in the year 2001 by the Internet or something like that But for those of you who are in the

Arizona area California area want to make sure you are aware of something

Specifically that next Friday evening July 7th at the

Plummer Auditorium Fullerton High School I believe is the location in Fullerton, California.

I will be debating. Mr. Timothy Staples a Roman Catholic apologist on the subject of papal infallibility and some of you may recall the fact

That mr. Staples and I have debated before we debated in 1996 on the subject of solo scriptura and that particular debate is on our website

If you'd like to listen to it by real audio, you can get the tapes from us it was quite the interesting a debate as well and quite a exciting time and I'm sure that this year will be no exception, especially since the audience will be

I think a majority Roman Catholic audience last time I during the break had a

Little Roman Catholic nun chasing me around with a rosary saying you need to pray to Mary you need to pray to Mary you need To pray to Mary and I was only defending solo scriptura this time

I will be going after the doctrine of papal infallibility that excites emotions and it's going to be very interesting but Even if you're not able to go to Fullerton, California You will be able to listen to mr.

Staples and I debate various issues regarding Roman Catholicism because this

Thursday and Friday We are going to be in studio with Hank Hanegraaff on the

Bible Answer Man broadcast That means you can call in and you can be a part of the conversation as it takes place

So obviously we'll be doing is we'll be doing two hours in studio on Thursday That second hour will then be broadcast on Friday.

So this Thursday and Friday July 6th and 7th We are scheduled currently to be in the studio and those in the

Phoenix area should know that program airs at 3 o 'clock Currently in the Phoenix area.

So I think it's uh, yeah, it's always 3 o 'clock No 4 o 'clock here in the Phoenix area 3 o 'clock live

Somebody in the control room throwing me a messages here. That's a you know, just trying to confuse me, you know

Just trying to do that kind of thing. Anyways You know when the Bible Answer Man broadcast is on you can find out for yourself

So that'll be this Thursday and Friday with Timothy Staples and Friday night will be the debate on papal infallibility

So you might want to be looking for that Now, let me read you a little something here this is from a article entitled the coming radical

Reformation 21 theses 21 theses, I guess we've simplified things since the days of Martin Luther and we had 95 but 21 theses for the coming radical

Reformation number one The God of the metaphysical age is dead

There is not a personal God out there external to human beings in the material world we must reckon with a deep crisis in God talk and Replace it with talk about whether the universe has meaning and whether human life has purpose

Who do you think wrote that? Who do you think would place as the first of?

21 theses the coming radical Reformation the assertion the God of the metaphysical age is dead

There is not a personal God out there external to human beings in the material world

Who would write such a thing? Maybe someone with the American atheists the the freedom from religion foundation, perhaps

No, those the words of Robert W Funk founder of the

Jesus seminar Let me reach you some more of Robert W Funk's writings second thesis

The doctrine of special creation of the species died With the advent of Darwinism and the new understanding of the age of the earth and magnitude of the physical universe

Special creation goes together with the notion that the earth and human beings are at the center of the galaxy the galaxy is anthropocentric

The demise of a geocentric universe took the doctrine of special creation with it So in two theses we have atheism we have evolutionary theory and we have naturalism

Number three the Deliteralization the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis brought an end to the dogma of original sin as something inherited from the first human being death is not punishment for sin, but is entirely natural and Sin is not transmitted from generation to generation by means of male sperm as suggested by Augustine So we have no

God we have no creation. We have no sin Death is merely natural.

We are a naturalistic materialist number four the notion that God interferes with the order of nature from time to time in order to aid or Punish is no longer credible in spite of the fact that most people still believe it

Miracles are an affront to the justice and integrity of God. However understood Miracles are conceived only as the inexplicable

Otherwise, they contradict the regularity of the order of the physical universe So what do we have there?

Well Robert W Funk is a naturalistic materialist He is an anti -supernaturalist and an atheist isn't that lovely?

number five Prayer is meaningless when understood as requests addressed to an external

God for favor or forgiveness and Meaningless if God does not interfere with the laws of nature

Prayer as praise is a remnant of the age of kingship in the ancient Near East and is beneath the dignity of deity prayer should be understood principally as meditation as Listening rather than talking and as attention to the needs of neighbor

That's number five of the 21 theses of Robert Funk. Can you go Robert Funk?

Yes, the founder of the Jesus Seminar Yes, Robert Funk The only person that Peter Jennings managed to remember to inform the audience

Monday night was a part of the Jesus Seminar Of course the majority of people that he interviewed as scholars were a part of the

Jesus Seminar The very organization founded by Robert Funk to attack the Christian faith

He forgot to mention that John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg are the other two main

Spokespeople for the Jesus Seminar also forgot to mention that Meyer is a part of the

Jesus Seminar It is amazing absolutely positively amazing

That anyone could call the program the search for Jesus an act of journalism

It wasn't journalism Journalism seeks to find facts journalism seeks to present both sides of an argument

There was not even an attempt to present both sides of an argument What happened

Monday evening was a two -hour? promotion For an organization that was specifically founded to undercut faith in Scripture in the

Christian faith That's what the Jesus Seminar is the Jesus Seminar is a group of people that don't believe in Christianity Who have degrees in ancient history and Bible and who have devoted themselves

To presenting to the media in a media savvy way the most blatant attack upon the

Christian faith that has ever been launched and Peter Jennings was and ABC News quote -unquote was their willing accomplice

That's not news folks. That's propaganda and Personally I prefer my anti -christian straight -up.

Thank you Let's not call them Bible scholars. Let's call them what they are they are scholars

There's no question of the the fact that they have scholarship But how they use that scholarship is quite simply laughable

It's laughable. You won't find these people coming on the air to defend their assertions in fact some of you know that there is a tape available from Alpha Omega Ministries Record back in 1989 were on a local talk show

I appeared opposite Robert W Funk and Dr. Funk and the Jesus Seminar had just determined by voting

Through the use of dropping various colored marbles into bags They had discovered through their voting that Jesus never said he was coming back

So he wasn't and this a wonderful announcement of the assured results of Bible scholarship Was making its rounds through the media and so we did a program and dr.

Funk came on and dr. Funk began with his His assertions that the the

Jesus Seminar is the epitome of biblical scholarship If anyone disagrees the

Jesus Seminar, they're not truly a scholar in fact when I mentioned people like FF Bruce and Leon Morris He laughed and well everyone knows that people like FF Bruce and Leon Morris They're just on the the fringes of Scholarship and they're not truly scholars that the guild has rejected them as scholars

Well, who is the guild the guild is? the Jesus Seminar the

Jesus Seminar defines scholarship and Peter Jennings in essence bought into their utterly arrogant completely unfounded claim that they define what scholarship is and So when

I began to challenge the very foundations Funk's assertions as some of you have listened to the tape know

He told us all to go to hell and hung up on us That's how the

Jesus Seminar deals with those that respond to them when they are forced to actually speak with them and give the person at least some amount of Time to attempt to ask questions and to make points that's what you do when you have no answers and Every time that anyone from the

Jesus Seminar has made the attempt to interact with anyone who can Present facts and can present a cogent argument.

They have failed miserably because when your entire point when your entire thesis is based upon Circular reasoning it is easy to expose that Well, that's what the

Jesus Seminar is all about and that's what the Monday night program is all about But you didn't hear much of that.

Did you because that was kept hidden? I wonder I really wonder how much would it have cost for a

Christian group to have purchased two hours of prime -time airtime

To present the same kind of program except with some semblance of balance. I Wonder if the

Jesus Seminar paid millions of dollars No, I sort of doubt they did I've only read five of dr.

Funk's theses here. Let me let me go to the section on Christology Because it is called the

Jesus Seminar, isn't it? Well, what does dr. Funk say about? Christology thesis number six and I'm reading directly here folks quote

We should give Jesus a demotion. It is no longer credible to think of Jesus as divine

Jesus's divinity goes together with the old theistic way of thinking about God Endquote, that's what he said.

We should give Jesus a demotion. That's Robert W Funk What do you think about that Remember folks

Funk believed all this the day that the Jesus Seminar started Don't let anybody tell you that the results of their studies

Were not determined in 1985 when it started They had already come to all of their conclusions about who

Jesus was in 1985 ever since then they've simply been spinning in circles and in spitting out news reports that The various and sundry news agencies pick up and publish as the assured results of biblical scholarship

Because the news media likes that kind of thing number seven the plot early

Christians invented for a divine Redeemer the plot Early Christians invented for a divine

Redeemer figure is as archaic as the mythology in which it is framed a Jesus who drops down out of heaven

Performs some magical act that frees human beings from the power of sin Rises from the dead and returns to heaven is simply no longer credible

The notion that he will return at the end of time and sit in cosmic judgment is equally incredible We must find a new plot for a more credible

Jesus if You want the exact? Map the road map for the

Jesus Seminar there it is the biblical Jesus cannot possibly be true therefore we need to come up with something new and That's all the

Jesus Seminar is about facts mean nothing to the Jesus Seminar Facts are to be used in Whatever way you desire to use them to promote this

New plot for a credible Jesus and who determines who a credible Jesus is

Robert W Funk John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg determined that on the basis of their own feelings their own desires and their hatred of the

Christian faith That's what the Jesus Seminar does number eight

Hmm By the way folks you can get this yourself this is off of the

Westar Institute website and since I print it from a Let me see ah here it is.

It's www .westarinstitute WESTAR Institute that's one word org

Go to Jesus Seminar, and you'll be able to find all this under the Robert W Funk link so you can check my quotations

I'm reading directly Number eight the virgin birth of Jesus is an insult to modern intelligence and Should be abandoned well could you see that one in the

Monday night program hmm? let me read it again the virgin birth of Jesus is an insult to modern intelligence and Should be abandoned in Addition it is a pernicious doctrine that denigrates women

I'm sorry number nine the doctrine of the atonement the claim that God killed his own son in order to satisfy his thirst for satisfaction is

Subrational and sub ethical This monstrous doctrine is the stepchild of a primitive

Sacrificial system in which the gods had to be appeased by offering them some special gift

Such as a child or an animal you hear that remember

Peter Jennings present these people as Bible scholars if There was a scintilla scintilla of journalism involved in that production somewhere along the line

Somebody would have had to have mentioned well we should point out that Robert Funk Detests biblical

Christianity hates biblical Christianity and Hates those who profess it

Let me read that one more time number nine the doctrine of the atonement the claim that God killed his own son in order to Satisfy his thirst for satisfaction is sub rational and sub ethical

This monstrous doctrine is the stepchild of a primitive sacrificial system in which the gods had to be appeased by offering them some

Special gifts such as a child or an animal Number ten the resurrection of Jesus did not involve the resuscitation of a corpse

Jesus did not rise from the dead except perhaps in some metaphorical sense

The meaning of the resurrection is that a few of his followers probably no more than two or three

Finally came to understand what he was all about When the significance of his words and deeds dawned on them

They knew of no other terms in which to express their amazement Than to claim that they had seen him alive

You want sub rational? They're sub rational That's sub rational

That's the most idiotic thing. I've ever read and yet And yet it's presented as biblical scholarship

Unbelievable number 11 The expectation that Jesus will return and sit in cosmic judgment is

Part and parcel of the mythological worldview that is now defunct. I think there's probably a pun there in defunct

Furthermore it undergirds human lust for the punishment of enemies and evildoers and the corresponding hope for rewards for the pious and righteous all

Apocalyptic elements should be expunged from the Christian agenda and quote number 11

Then there's a section called God's domain according to Jesus Now remember folks from their perspective we know almost nothing that Jesus said from their perspective they create in their minds what they will they will accept as a

Jesus figure and Then they get together They've decided what Jesus would or would not say

Then they go through the biblical accounts and saying hmm. That sort of sounds a little bit like the

Jesus that I will accept Or that doesn't sound much like the Jesus I'd accept or not at all

I then they throw little marbles in a bag and The result I hold in my hands the five

Gospels their their own translation of the New Testament text which

Not surprisingly is humbly Called the scholars version since they are the only scholars so their version would of necessity be the scholars version

And in it they use different colors to indicate when something wasn't what

Jesus said that's printed in black and Then they print in a another color in a sort of a teal color they print things that Jesus well

Probably didn't say, but there's you know sort of a possibility Specifically Jesus did not say this, but the ideas contained in it are close to his own

That's the teal color they call it gray but it printed out his teal then the pink colored sayings are just probably said something like this and The red is

Jesus undoubtedly said this or something very much like it The fascinating thing is in the

Gospel of John There's one pink statement, and it happens to come from the other

Gospels Everything else that Jesus said in John he didn't there's this did Jesus did not say this

Didn't say it at all the Gospel of Thomas which history tells us came from the second century

From Gnostics and had nothing to do with Jesus has all sorts of stuff in it as of the various colors because these folks think that they can overthrow the kin of the

Old Testament and They can in essence Canonize a

Gnostic gospel because it gives them something more to sound to say and makes them look scholarly Anyway, so what they do is they come up with an idea of what

Jesus would or would not have said according to their own thinking their own liking Don't worry about History don't worry about facts

This is just the Jesus. I'll accept and Then they apply their scholarship by dropping marbles and bags

Yeah scholarship PhDs all mm -hmm God's domain according to Jesus number 12

Jesus advocates and practices a trust ethic The kingdom of God for Jesus is characterized by trust in the order of creation and the essential goodness of neighbor

So Jesus was a humanist that's the only Jesus will accept Here's another one for Jesus listen closely here for Jesus God's domain is a realm without social boundaries in That realm there is neither

Jew nor Greek male nor female slave nor free homosexual or heterosexual Friend or enemy

Sort of caught that little bit of political correctness thrown in there didn't you? mm -hmm number 15

For Jesus God's domain has no brokers no mediators between human beings and divinity

The church has insisted on the necessity of mediators in order to protect its brokerage system

Who is that aimed at? That's aimed at the Roman Catholic Church of course it is mediators saints priests the sacramental system

Number 16 For Jesus the kingdom does not require cultic rituals to mark the rites of passage from outsider to insider

From sinner to righteous from child to adult from client to broker That's an interesting one let's skip down to the section on the canon because I'll read you the last three of the theses here

This is really good number 19 The New Testament is a highly uneven and biased record of orthodox attempts to invent

Christianity The canon of scripture adopted by traditional Christianity should be contracted and expanded

Simultaneously to reflect respect for the old tradition and openness to the new

By the way where does the new tradition come from it comes from the Jesus seminar hmm

I continue only the works of strong poets Those who startle us

Amaze us with a glimpse of what lies beyond the rim of present sight should be considered for inclusion

The canon should be a collection of scriptures without a fixed text and without either inside or outside limits

Like the myth of King Arthur and the Knights of the roundtable or the myth of the

American West That should be the canon Robert W.

Funk Bible scholar number 20 The Bible does not contain fixed objective standards of behavior

That should govern human behavior for all time This includes the

Ten Commandments as well as the admonitions of Jesus And Finally number 21 in our in rearticulating the vision of Jesus We should take care to express ourselves in the same register as he employed in his parables and aphorisms paradox hyperbole exaggeration and metaphor

Further our reconstructions of his vision should be provincial always subject to modification and Correction There you go folks according to the writings of these 21 theses

This view of Robert W. Funk the founder of the Jesus seminar He is an anti -christian naturalistic materialistic atheist

Who denies the resurrection the existence of miraculous the existence of an objective revelation from God?

He is the enemy folks. He is the opposite of Christianity So why didn't

Peter Jennings tell us that? Why didn't he tell us that the primary source of his quote -unquote scholarship is?

anti -christian Because it was the whole purpose of the program to mock historic

Christianity To present falsehoods as if they are the assured results of Christian scholarship just that simple

Let's not pander to political correctness Because our enemies aren't doing it.

Let's deal with the facts and the fact is no facts were presented All we had were the ipso dixit the thus saith the

Jesus seminar Well folks the Jesus seminar has no credibility and neither any longer does

Peter Jennings or ABC News and We should vote about that. By the way, we watch television and so on and so forth

We need to take a break. We'll be taking your phone calls at one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty six

Oh two two seven four thirteen sixty. We'll be right back You What's some of the clearest evidence that the

Jesus seminar does not practice sound scholarship some of the clearest evidence is the fact that in the opening remarks of The first and initial meeting of the

Jesus seminar March 21st to the 24th 1985 in that Mecca of conservative

Christian thought Berkeley, California the entire direction of the

Jesus seminar and what it was going to teach and what it in fact was going to amazingly enough discover was laid out

Robert W Funk in addressing that initial group said the following Quote we were about to embark on a momentous enterprise

We are going to inquire simply rigorously after the voice of Jesus after what he really said in This process we'll be asking a question that borders the sacred that even abuts blasphemy for many in our society as a consequence

The course we shall follow may prove hazardous. We may well provoke hostility But we will set out in spite of the dangers because we are

Professionals and because the issue of Jesus is there to be faced much as Mount Everest confronts the team of climbers

We are not embarking on this venture in a corner. We are going to carry out our work in full public view We will not only honor the freedom of information

We will insist on the public disclosure of our work and insofar as it lies within our power

We shall see to it that the public is informed of our judgments We shall do so not because our wisdom is superior but because we are committed to public accountability

Yeah, that's why four years later dr. Funk hung up on me and told me to go to help our basic plan is simple

We intend to examine every fragment of the traditions attached to the name of Jesus in order to determine what he really said

Not his literal words perhaps, but the substance and style of his utterances We are in quest of his voice insofar as it can be distinguished from many other voices also preserved in the tradition we are prepared to bring to bear everything we know and can learn about the form and content about the formation and transmission of aphorisms and parables dialogues and debates attributed or attributable to Jesus in order to carry out our task

Now that's very interesting. But what is the foundation? Listen to these words

Make no mistake There is widespread and passionate interest in this issue.

Even among those ready for this uninitiated in the higher mysteries of gospel scholarship

But those words carry such an amount of pompous attitude that it makes me absolutely amazed

Those uninitiated in the higher mysteries of Gospels scholarship the religious establishment

Has not allowed the intelligence of high scholarship to pass through pastors and priests to a hungry laity and the radio and TV counterparts of educated clergy have traded in platitudes and pieties and played on the ignorance of the uninformed a rude and rancorous awakening lies ahead

But what we are about takes courage as I said We are probing what is most sacred to millions and hence we will constantly border on blasphemy

We must be prepared to forbear the hostility. We shall provoke at the same time our work if carefully and thoughtfully wrought will spell liberty for millions if It is for the latter that we labor

Do you hear what he said? Liberty for millions liberty from what? from the myth of Christianity That is what they gather for They labor to present to the public and oh, are they good at getting hold of the newspaper?

Getting hold of the radio program They labor to free millions

To give millions liberty from what from believing in the archaic Sub -ethical incredulous belief in what a personal

God creation sin the atonement Miracles the virgin birth the resurrection and the coming of Christ Do not forget my friends that for the

Jesus seminar Liberty is to be rid of God's law Rid of sin and rid of punishment

Hmm that shouldn't surprise anyone who's read their Bible recently that shouldn't surprise anyone who's read

Romans chapter 1 recently professing themselves to be wise they became fools

Their foolish hearts were darkened. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Remember these are individuals

Who are scholars? They are scholars folks They've got all the degrees you want

Vanderbilt and and all over the place. I mean, there's a whole list I'm grabbing the the five

Gospels here. There's a list in the back of the people who work in the Jesus seminar

Yeah, here it is Robert W but W funk PhD Vanderbilt, by the way, if you have questions to ask 602 274 1360 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 we're talking about the

Jesus seminar today. We're talking about the program From Monday evening the search for Jesus if you'd like to ask some of the questions

They asked now is your time to jump online Don't be calling here at 5 minutes to with a question that's going to take 15 minutes to answer, please 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 60 2 2 7 4 13 60

Robert W funk PhD Vanderbilt John Dominic Croston DD Maynooth College, Ireland Marcus Borg, he was a big one doctor of philosophy

Oxford University Yes, indeed Let's see here.

St. Michael's College Claremont Graduate School for John Daniels all sorts of Temple University University of Pennsylvania all sorts of doctorates all over the place

So these folks have the education But what does it tell you?

When someone can sit down in an organization Accept a preconceived vision of Jesus Ignore the existence of the

New Testament text dismiss them as Merely biased accounts of an of a community

Dismiss them as having almost any historical relevance whatsoever bring in materials like the gospel of Thomas That so clearly comes from a completely foreign worldview

So obviously comes from the second century Does not have in any way shape or form the historical

Documentary evidence for its text that the rest of the New Testament has What does it say that you can sit down a group accept those things throw marbles in a bag and call it scholarship

It says that you can have all the facts in the world.

But the simple fact of the matter is that sin affects the mind of man a

Total depravity is true and the Jesus seminar proves it

You can have the degrees you can know the facts, but there's nothing in a degree after your name that guarantees that you will properly use those facts and we live in a society that idolizes scholarship

Idolizes Scholarship all Through these things you'll see you'll read

Bible scholars have determined X Y & Z I happen to open up the the five

Gospels here and I turned the section on the I am sayings of Jesus There's a section on the

I am sayings of Jesus. I am the lie of the world John 8 58 stuff like that And of course once you start looking for it, you'll never find it again, but as I read through the discussion

One of the things that immediately was here. It is page 419 for those of you who have that Mr.

Pierce has put something up on the the screen here that I will absolutely Admit to you a it makes no sense to me whatsoever scholarship is misspelled and It confuses me.

Are you a are you are you possibly a a spy for the Jesus seminar today trying to confuse me with these?

No, I can't hear you We've turned you off. You can hear me now. I can hear you.

There you go Well, you know don't the Moose Lodge guys and all those guys like, you know vote in people with the marbles and stuff like that So this is like Moose Lodge scholarship

Marbles is spelled M a R B L ES rich I was in a hurry and I'm trying to find a good spot here.

Anyway, I Think that's how they do it. Yeah, that's Moose Lodge scholarship using of marbles, but I Think they only use two colored marbles in the

Moose Lodge and they use four different colored marbles now It could be very confusing. Well, what happens if they put a black marble in there?

That means Jesus didn't say it. Oh See in the Moose Lodge, that's how you get kicked out That's how you kick the sayings of Jesus out of the cannon tip so we've got

Moose Lodge scholarship Yeah, but you can also put in teal colored. Well gray colored and pink colored and red colored marbles

Okay. Now all you Moose Lodgers don't get mad at me because I really have no idea how that's done I'd like to know what they do with the colored marbles that they don't use

During the voting process that that would be interesting. No, but anyways page 419 of the five

Gospels says The readers of the fourth gospel are told from the outset who

Jesus is and what he is many of the I am sayings are Designed in the present form of the gospel to expand on who

Jesus is by adding identifying phrases in virtually every case The reader is being confronted with the language of the evangelist and not the language of Jesus So Jesus never said these things

The evangelist would like you to believe that Jesus said these things but Jesus didn't actually say these things and as you read through it

It talks about how scholars recognize that such -and -so is not the case and scholars say this when you have someone saying scholarship says

Immediately folks in our society you need to demythologize scholarship

Scholarship is busy demythologizing Jesus and demythologizing the Bible.

We need to be busy demythologizing scholarship Because the word means nothing and any scholarship that is meaningful

Will be able to demonstrate the foundations of its conclusions and will be able to do so Without looking at you and saying well look this is just too deep for you

That's the definition of meaningful scholarship. Well, we have one caller online and we're expecting some others

Why don't you get online to it? 602 274 1361 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60

We're gonna take a break and be right back 602 274 13 60 in the local

Phoenix dialing area 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 If you're outside the

Phoenix dialing area, we're talking about the search for Jesus Peter Jennings to our promotion for the

Jesus seminar under the guise of scholarship and The attack upon the biblical faith sponsored by your friendly local

ABC News affiliate and That's exactly what it was folks. I don't think it's time to be.

Oh, well, I think we need to be fair They weren't fair with us folks Let's just let the facts be what the facts are and the fact is that was not journalism

That was a blatant attack upon the Christian faith and the people who put together knew it

There's no reason to say all I'm up. Maybe Peter Jennings just didn't know How do you think he got hold of Borg and crossin and funk

He had to pick up a phone had dial a phone number and there was purpose in it So 602 274 13 61 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60.

Let's talk to Wayne in Charlotte, Michigan Hi Wayne I'm Well, you know some folks might think

I'm talking a little fast and might be a little hot under the collar today Well, I think it's perfectly understandable

As I was like one of the millions of people who watch that Program on Monday night and as it started

I told my wife I said well you realize of course This is probably going to be a PR piece for the

Jesus seminar and sure enough, you know all the cast of characters started appearing and but one of the things that Concerned me was when he mentioned

Peter Jennings literal words were As to where Jesus was born

Only two Gospels mentioned it and they tell it differently. Well, I looked it up, of course both

Gospels Matthew and Luke Indicated was Bethlehem but they made a big to -do about the birth of birthplace of Jesus and And as you said at the beginning they went to you know people on the street

Well, where do you think he was born and then when they wanted to refute this with sound scholarship? Of course, they went to one someone from the

Jesus. Where did they get the idea that there's some sort of discrepancy in this? Well again, it all comes from the liberal mindset in looking at the scriptures you you automatic

Basically, the the gospel writers are guilty until proven innocent in the thinking of the

Jesus seminar Which is another a question I have to why do they irrigate all truthfulness and honesty to themselves and all deception and Dishonesty to Believers of the first century it is part and parcel of the primary assumption of the

Jesus seminar it comes from a view of a liberal view that sadly some evangelicals are

Afraid because they want to be accepted by quote -unquote Scholarship in the world. They're afraid to identify this even when it appears within Christianity itself

They they want to buy into the idea that we need to deal with the biblical texts as if they are the unreliable late written accounts based upon memory

They don't want to deal with the idea of any type of spiritual aspect of the scriptures or if they give any type of spiritual

Aspect of the scriptures it's not in the writing of the scriptures But it's only later as we quote -unquote

Interact with the scriptures and so really that that's foundational to understanding.

Sadly the vast majority of Writing biblical scholarship today the large portion of those who write especially in Old Testament Commentaries and things like that you walk into a

Christian bookstore today, and if they have any commentaries at all Especially in the Old Testament. They basically come from that world view

Well, that's that's where they that's where they get it that's a starting assumption I didn't see it as I read it. I'm saying we're no

Well, if if you were a real scholar like we is you would get that kind of stuff But seriously, that's that's one of the reasons that that when funk was on with me in 1989 one of the things he said to the radio host is

I don't appear on programs of fundamentalists and the reason is because The worldview the the naturalistic materialistic worldview of Robert W Funk not only is utterly contrary to fundamentalism

But he has no interest in attempting to defend the foundational elements of it And that's why the

Jesus seminar people will not do the kind of interactive One -on -one type debate with believing scholarship that would expose the foundations of their thinking and the circularity of their reasoning

Well, if there was any indication of I don't know how much viewership he had on that program on Monday But I work with about 25 people and no one that I worked with had even watched the program so I think that's part and parcel of The credibility issue that the media has

I think partially because of programs like this Well, I certainly there has been a tremendous backlash, but I think they've a fully expected it and be wanted it

I think ABC wanted that kind of reaction You can't tell me the people promoted it did not know what they were doing and did not do it purposefully

That they purposefully chose one moderate. There was one moderate Right.

That was the only person and in comparison if you if you put together the Jesus seminar

Exposure in comparison with the moderate exposure. Let's not even worry about a conservative

It was it was what six seven to one easily Again so, you know to call that journalism is is absolutely positively ridiculous, that's that's like calling an

Advertisement for Carnival Cruise Lines and unbiased examination of the travel industry. I mean that that's about the same level

Well just to give you a quick indication of you know I went to their Website the next morning like 10 ,000 other people that was trying to give them emails telling them where they got some things

They felt were wrong not that they were gonna listen to them But they're on their website said there was a

Bible fact from It says Luke chapter 2 tells us that the names of the wise men were

You know in the enlist what the traditionally they were Balthazar and whatever the other two were And a guy emailed him and said, you know, you can't even get this type of scholarship, correct?

You know, you go to that just even a cursory look will say we don't even know what their names were How many there were but there it is as a

Bible fact right up on their website Which incidentally they change the next day to tradition. So anyway, hey, dr.

White. I really appreciate your ministry Yeah, you have an impact out here in my life and the life of other people here that I've Shared your materials with lots of people really appreciate you're gonna keep praying for you and God bless you

I appreciate that make sure to be praying for us Friday night as we're debating Tim Stables and Fullerton We'll do it there another person waiting like I have another question.

No, go ahead I I listen to these debates with Catholics. I was raised in a Roman Catholic Church and I Listened to him and it's so clear to me that you win these debates and I kind of feel like when

I listen to him Like I'm listening to Dr. Laura where someone calls it and says the most wild thing you go and you're thinking that person doesn't realize she's gonna get all

Over them, you know, and I listen to your debates. I'm like, why do these guys go back to it? Well, you got to realize for most of them they really do believe that they are winning this debate

I'll give you one exception to that though Jerry Matta ticks has In conversations with others not only admitted to losing a number of our debates including the

Mary debate But to my knowledge is only claimed to win one of twelve we've done together. So You know,

I'd sort of figure if I felt I was 111 I might be wondering why I'm doing what I'm doing You got to realize when

Tim Staples and I debated on solo scriptura in 96 there were two lines of people waiting at microphones to ask questions during the question -answer period and During that period of time a number of his students are asking questions at one point one guy is just so zealous He just yells out in front of the whole audience the

Eucharist and everybody claps and applauds and thinks it's a wonderful thing Hey, there you go.

There you go. I beat you. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you got it you got a Just recognize that that's that's a part of what's going on there so we just do it so that other people can hear the truth and can understand it and Trust that it's a blessing to folks like yourself.

You may not be able to be there, but I bet you'll get the tape Well, we're anxiously awaiting that 12 tape series.

That's right. That's right. All right. God bless. Bye -bye Well, that'll do it for the the dividing line today

I hope that some of the things we shared with you you'll be able to use to share with other individuals

There's there's a lot of discussions about that program around the water coolers at work, and I hope that was useful to you

We'll be back again next week on the dividing line pray for us Friday night Remember the Bible answer man broadcast coming

Thursday night with Tim Staples pray for that as well. Thanks for being with us. God bless You The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 0 3 1 8 or write us at p .o.

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org.

That's a o Min dot org where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks