The SECRET Problem with Mega Churches REVEALED | Pastor Reacts

Having seen the workings of what you might call the megachurch movement up close, I do have one pretty significant concern.

Ah, I think my man Jamie is cooking with Greece. For the churches who make it their priority to grow, this is what he's saying, and to make sure that people keep coming back next

Sunday, they start to get very quiet about areas of the Bible that run in direct opposition to what's popular in secular culture.

Just so I'm clear on how I feel about these kinds of strategies, they make me want to puke. Did you know that there is a secret problem with megachurches?

Maybe you already sense what that problem is, but you can't quite put your finger on it. Because this problem is not obvious on the surface, which is why many in churches make this same mistake, and they slip into the same problem.

What is this problem? And more importantly, what does the Bible have to say about it? We're going to get into all of that in just a moment.

If you're new here, welcome to Wise Disciple. My name is Nate Sala, and I'm helping you become the effective Christian that you were meant to be.

Before I jumped into this ministry, I was a pastor for a number of years at a church in Las Vegas, and from that experience, as well as an interesting mixture of other weird skills,

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In November of 2020, after working for almost a decade in various megachurch contexts,

I resigned my role as a pastor and moved my wife and then two -year -old back to Northern Ireland with no plan whatsoever,

I might add, at very short notice. We slept on the floor of my parents' house for almost a year.

I was out of ministry for about two years, and I think I did the right thing, and here's what

I learned from it. Wow, I feel for this guy. I was a pastor for a number of years in Las Vegas, not nearly 10, but I was making moves to become a senior pastor.

Towards the end there, I was candidating for a couple of churches for senior pastor, and then it's almost like the

Lord took me on a complete left turn away from all of that. I ended up floating for almost two years and then moving out to Nashville, Tennessee, and obviously

I know why that is now. It's because I was supposed to do this channel with all of you. Amen? I say all that to say

I feel an affinity for this man already. He's probably seen a lot, and with his background and insights, he's probably going to bless many people.

Hopefully he will. So, a little bit of backstory. I grew up in a large church here in Belfast. It probably wasn't stylistically close to a megachurch when

I was growing up there, became more so as I got older. It was a great church full of godly people.

They raised me with the gospel. They taught me the Bible, taught me a lot about prayer, and whenever I became interested in going into ministry, after having gone away to Bible college, they actually brought me on staff.

They actually hired me first to coordinate a church planting network they were part of, and then as a campus pastor, then as basically a discipleship pastor, and then

I was the pastor of a large campus for a church over in England, which is the one that I ended up leaving. I'll not get into all the details as to why that was.

I'm sure we could. We could make it more viral and more juicy and so on, but my intent with this video is not to create viral juice, okay?

Also, viral juice sounds disgusting. Don't drink viral juice. So, he's got the bona fides to be able to make this video.

He was a youth pastor and then a discipleship pastor for a number of years. It's funny, again.

I mean, this is kind of parallel to what I did as a pastor. I led the young adults community at the church that I was at.

I was the discipleship pastor, and so, again, I instantly like this guy. I feel like he and I would get along famously.

It sounds like, from his experience, he's about to critique megachurches, and I'm wondering if his critique is going to be my critique, okay?

I wonder if you have a critique of megachurches, right? Let's all diagnose this problem together, shall we?

The reason was, though, that we ended up having some disagreements that made my position there difficult to maintain, and it felt like, in good conscience, we couldn't really stay.

We prayed about it, felt it was time to go. They were good people, are good people, good church, kind people.

I'll speak highly of them, they speak highly of us. However, having seen the workings of what you might call the megachurch movement up close,

I do have one pretty significant concern. Let's start, though, by defining terms.

What do we mean by megachurches? There's no sort of official group. There's no denomination to join.

I would say that when you want to define megachurches, the best way to do it is to look at a mix of size and style.

The size thing varies a little bit by context. Here in the UK, I would say that any church over 1 ,000 is probably considered a megachurch.

Churches here are a bit smaller. The largest church here is basically about 5 ,000 people. If you've got 1 ,000 people showing up on a

Sunday, you're in the top 20 to 30 churches in the nation. If you're in the US, that's obviously going to be a little bit bigger.

If you're in some other context, it might look different again. I don't know. I think his status is pretty close.

I think if you're running about 1 ,000 to 1 ,500, you're considered a megachurch of a kind in America.

I mean, the average congregant size of churches here in the United States is still pretty low. I think it's around 60 or something like that.

It used to be slightly higher pre -COVID, but now that number has gone down a bit. So, you know, when the vast majority of churches are incredibly tiny, then once you're running up above 250 people in a worship service or more, you're already in the top percentile of church size, which is less than 10 % of all churches in this country.

So, I'm just saying all this for your reference so you can get an idea about how many megachurches there actually are in America.

By the way, if you're wondering how I know all that, Tom Rainer is a great resource for church data. Are you a pastor out there?

Tom Rainer is going to help you out. Boy, man, I haven't said Tom Rainer's name in years since I left the pastorate, okay?

But he collects a lot of the data, and it's useful if you're interested in knowing stuff like this.

Anyway, so we're going to get into the problem with megachurches in just a moment, but I'm going to let Jamie finish his thought here.

But I'm pretty sure that we can say that size is a fairly important part of defining a megachurch, right?

At the same time, I don't think size is the only thing, because I think there are churches that are large that are not considered megachurches.

Never heard John MacArthur's church be referred to as a megachurch. No one has ever called him a megachurch pastor, and I don't think they will until he dons the skinny jeans and denim jacket, which somehow

I don't think he's going to do. Never say never. Nonetheless, I think that style is important for what people think of whenever you use the term megachurch, and I don't think it's that kind of style.

And actually, one thing that you do see, and that's why I say size is important, but style definitely matters, is you see that there are some medium -sized churches, a lot of medium -sized churches, that are very much embracing the megachurch style.

They're very influenced by megachurches, and they're probably much closer to megachurches than, say, a

MacArthur or someone like that would be. So when we talk about - So it's an interesting observation that Jamie makes here.

He says that megachurch is also a style, and a lot of -

I think he means like a presentation style, right? And he also says that smaller churches are seeking to emulate this particular style, and I guess it's sort of implied in his

B -roll, but that style could be like cool stage lights or fog machine or whatever, right?

The point is, Jamie is suggesting that there is a presentation style that many churches strive to emulate, and I think he's, once again, spot on in his observation.

I won't say where or which organizations, but I've been to a few different church conferences that are specifically focused on teaching pastors and church leaders how to shape, how to hone the presentation style of their churches.

At these conferences, churches and church congregations are spoken of using marketing language, and the quote -unquote

Sunday morning experience is like it's treated as a means to get people into these marketing funnels that culminate in church membership, in church service, okay?

Just so I'm clear on how I feel about these kinds of strategies, they make me want to puke, okay?

Not sure if that was clear enough. Anyway, Jamie's totally right about his style, this kind of style of church, and it plays right into the problem, because watch this.

Let me give my concern, and I have a big one. Now, we could do an itemized list.

We could look at how this plays out in various contexts, but I think it's easier to pull it back to one big underlying thing that, whilst not universally true in contexts like this, is often true in this kind of movement.

I think it's more true for this movement than other ones, and I think it leads to pretty much all of the issues.

So whether that is Andy Stanley compromising on sexuality, or whether it's the silliness of the

At the Movie sermon series where they dress up as film characters, and instead of exegeting the gospel of Matthew, they exegete

Sharknado 3, or whether it is— Wait, wait, what? Oh my gosh.

I'm not going to look this up, okay? I'm not aware of churches who get dressed up like characters from Toy Story, apparently, and exegete

Sharknado. It doesn't surprise me. I just—I hadn't heard that one, okay?

Did you hear about this one? Is that really a thing? I'm not going to look this one up. The most common thing, which is just to shy away from the key theological battles of our day, the key issues, and just stay silent on them,

I think it comes back to this. In this context, a lot of the time, growth becomes not just a metric of success, but the metric of success.

If you are growing, you're doing it right. And if you're not growing, you're doing something wrong.

And I think that sets them up for significant error, particularly when the pressure is on.

Ah, I think my man Jamie is cooking with grease. I think that's incredibly insightful.

And it's something that I personally witnessed with megachurch pastors specifically. And not even megachurch pastors, but pastors of churches who are, again, in that top percentile, that are at or slightly above 250 members.

Not that I have a lot of experience with this, but I'm just saying, I've heard the conversations behind the scenes before, right?

How many did you run last week? How many baptisms did you have last month? You know, is attendance going up or is it going down?

Is giving going up or is it going down? And it's this weird thing, because it's almost just baked into the cake of the conversation.

But the understanding is, if attendance is going up, if giving is going up, that's a good thing.

But if attendance and giving is static, or it's going down, that's a bad thing. And the question is, what does the

Bible say about it? What is the Bible's metric of a successful church? Have you ever asked that question before?

We're going to come back to that in a moment. Let's finish. If your primary question as a church every Sunday is, how can we get them to come in?

And how can we get them to come back? Then at some point, it's likely to occur to you that offending everybody there is not a good way to do that.

And so when it comes to issues that are societally popular, but which are in opposition to the teaching of the

Bible, the tendency is to stay quiet or to adapt the faith to fit it.

And that leaves churches vulnerable. I remember - Ah, my goodness, this guy.

You need to rewind that clip and hear the clip again. As a matter of fact, I'll give a link to the whole video.

You should go watch the whole video. It's amazing. For the churches who make it their priority to grow, this is what he's saying, and to make sure that people keep coming back next

Sunday, they start to get very quiet about areas of the Bible that run in direct opposition to what's popular in secular culture.

All of a sudden, when God's word challenges current thinking, these types of churches don't have a whole lot to say.

Instead, you find these churches sounding very positive and motivational every

Sunday, using the scripture to get people energetic instead of enlightened about what

God's word is actually telling us to do. Did you see last week's video, by the way? You know what

I mean, right? He's so right. And again, the question is, how does the

Bible characterize the success and failure of church? I'll show you what it says. And actually, maybe some of you will be surprised.

I'm not sure. I remember talking to the pastor of what was at the time the fastest growing church in America and had been for a couple of years.

And they said that they would never speak on the issue of sexuality in public because if they did so, they could give up on church growth.

And I remember at the time being completely horrified. Like, really? Your plan is to just not disciple your people on the biggest issue of the day in order to pump your numbers up?

I'm not saying all megachurches are like this or even the ones that I went to, but I would also say that this is not unusual.

And having been in that movement, I do think there is a tendency to ignore some issues or to not do some things that are absolutely needed for the sake of growth.

My analogy as to why that's a bad idea is like that of a gym bro. I like to work out, right? If you imagine a gym bro, weights are going up, getting stronger, getting bigger.

Also, slight side note, doctor says I have cancer and I need to get chemo, but I'm not going to do that because it would impact my gains.

So I'm just going to keep going, biceps are growing, chest is growing, back is growing, tumour is growing.

Like, you can do that. I mean, that's possible and you will continue to grow until the point when you keel over dead.

And that can happen in this movement. What happens with the next generation? What happens to that church in 40 years time?

You don't address it now where does that go? Will these churches that are so large be able to stand?

I like what he's doing because he's anticipating where I'm about to go in the scripture. And I don't know if he has the same

Bible verse in mind, but notice what he's saying. It is very possible for two things to happen at the same time.

A church can grow in size and then be dead on the inside. Let that sink in for a moment.

Don't get me wrong. Jesus started his church to grow. He wants his church to grow. The Great Commission is based on the church growing.

If you're reaching people and discipling them, your church is going to grow, right? But it's not the only metric that matters.

In John 6, Jesus managed to take a crowd of thousands and shrink it down to 12 in a single sermon.

And let's be honest, the 12 probably weren't all that happy about it either. I do imagine though that on the way home from that,

Jesus turned around and went, that was a great meeting. Like, that sermon was perfect. And because it was Jesus, of course it was perfect.

Yeah, it's funny. And you know, many have pointed this out. You know, Jesus, by today's standards of preaching, was probably one of the worst preachers out there.

Because yes, that's right. In one sitting, the entire crowd that followed him got up and just walked out.

And it was because of the part of the sermon where he said, you know, y 'all need to eat my flesh and drink my blood. And everybody said, nah, that's too difficult to hear.

We're out of here. Jesus didn't even— did you notice this? Jesus, when he goes to preach the

Sermon on the Mount, doesn't even invite the crowds to come hear him, right? The crowds, they come gather around him at the end of Matthew chapter 4.

And then in chapter 5, he just sees the crowd, you know, and then just turns and walks away.

And then goes up a hill or a mountain and starts teaching his disciples his sermon.

And the crowd decides to come and follow and just sit down and listen to what Jesus is saying to his disciples.

What kind of megachurch, you know, marketing strategy is that? Hey, real quick, I hope this video is blessing you.

Would you do me a favor and like and subscribe to the channel? It really does help me to get this video out to more and more people. I really do appreciate it.

Yeah, I love that. I love this guy. You should check out more of his videos. I'll leave a link for his channel below.

But let's get into the question that I originally posed. What is the Bible's metric of a successful church?

Well, first of all, the Bible nowhere teaches that honing and shaping an exciting

Sunday morning experience with, you know, flashing lights and fog machines and branded t -shirts in the lobby is what leads to church growth.

In Acts chapter 2, this is what we're told. Verse 46, And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes.

This is the early church. They received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people.

And here it is. And the Lord added to their number day by day, those who are being saved.

Who causes growth? It's the Lord. That's literally what 1 Corinthians 3, 7 says as well.

Look at what it says. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

Now, don't hear what I'm not saying. This is not the, you know, the first century right now. This is 2024, okay?

Today we have the benefits of electricity, the internet, and cinnamon lattes, right? So there's nothing wrong in and of itself for churches to look modern in today's society.

What's wrong is when you think that anything other than the Lord is the cause of church growth. But wait a second.

The Bible doesn't even teach that church growth is an indication of health. Did you know that? On two occasions in the book of Revelation, Jesus condemns churches who appear to be amazingly successful.

Revelation 3, 1. And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, the words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars,

I know your works. Here it is. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my

God. Remember then what you received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you will not wake up,

I will come like a thief and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Think about that.

If this church had the reputation of being alive, who gave them that reputation? Clearly it must have been other churches and other brothers and sisters around them, right?

And how do you think those people measured the church in Sardis' success? On the outside, the church in Sardis must have looked like they were flourishing.

They were doing everything right. So we don't, you know, we don't hear anything about, like, the numbers of the congregants at the church in Sardis, and we don't need to because measuring them by today's megachurch standards is anachronistic anyway.

But that's not the point. Jesus says that it is very possible for a church to have a great reputation by the other brothers and sisters and be spiritually dead as a doornail.

That means that a big congregation size does not automatically give an indication of spiritual health.

Jesus says something similar to the church in Laodicea. He says, verse 17, for you say I'm rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

It's not about what's taking place on the outside. Jesus has been very clear about the difference between outside appearances for all to see and what is truly taking place spiritually.

That's why he says this in Matthew 7, which is incredibly frightening for people to hear.

Verse 21, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my

Father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, pay attention to what they're doing. Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

And then will I declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

This is frightening, ladies and gentlemen. These people are doing everything right.

They're prophesying in Jesus' name. They're casting out demons successfully, might I add. They're doing mighty works, right, on the outside.

They may have a reputation that they are alive, but that's not the reality spiritually. Why? Because Jesus says,

I never knew these people. Clearly something that cannot be measured by today's marketing standards is what

God uses to measure a church's success. And what is that? The Apostle Paul says it like this,

Colossians chapter 1, verse 21, and you who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he,

Jesus, has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him.

If, here it is, indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which

I, Paul, became a minister. What is the measure of success of the church?

And by the church, I don't mean a super cool modern building with stadium seating and a restaurant in the lobby.

I mean God's people. That's the church. The temple of God dwells inside each and every one of his people.

We are the true bricks of what the church is made out of. And what is the success of this kind of biblical church?

Do not shift from the gospel. Jesus will— this is what the scripture says— he will present us holy and blameless, all of us, if we, indeed, hold fast to the gospel that saved us.

Paul goes on to say it like this in chapter 2, verse 6. Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him.

So live your life in the same way that you got saved, right? Rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

The same way that you got saved is the same way that you live your life every single day, totally surrendered in faith to the gospel message of the resurrected

Christ. He says, having been built up and established, you realize this means that you must be discipled?

How do I know that? Because this rooting and establishing is on the basis of what you were taught. That's literally how the statement flows in verse 7.

That's the great commission. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.

That's Matthew chapter 28. That's what it looks like to be a successful church, never wavering from the gospel that saved you, fulfilling the great commission that has been given to us by our

Lord. You know what that means? Any building of people, big or small, that commits itself and never wavers to the gospel, properly preached.

Amen? Somebody can amen me. Properly preached and obeying Jesus' commands, which includes the great commission, that is the successful church in the eyes of God.

That means a congregation that is growing may be successful or not, because that's not the true metric of spiritual health.

And it also means that a congregation that's shrinking may also be successful, too. You know?

Maybe they're sending off missionaries to go plant another church and some of the family of God is going with them.

That's a successful church. Amen? That's what success looks like in the

Bible, ladies and gentlemen. And that has never changed. All right. Now it's your turn to sound off.

What do you think? What counts as success in the eyes of God? Does this mean that all mega churches are bad?

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