Answering Christianity Myths of Women Preaching

This is apologetics live to answer your questions. Your host from striving for eternity ministries. Well, we are live A bit late, but still live. Uh, sorry about the technical issues. Uh all of a sudden just before we went to go live uh, I lost the sound so my uh, my output was no longer going and I couldn't get anything to To work so I well did what any of you would do panicked.

Yes, but I am your host. Andrew Rappaport. I am the executive director of striving fraternity and the christian podcast community of which this live stream becomes a podcast of which is on That show so if you want to let's check out christian podcast community go to pictures and podcast community .org.

You can go to striving for eternity .org to find out more about Striving for eternity as I am still panicking and trying to pull up all of my files that I had Opened before so that I could start this discussion.

Yeah, okay.

My co-host is not in. That makes it even livelier. So now I have to do everything here and look at your comments and everything else I am trying to. Find my word document that I had open because that's going to be needed.

Uh.

And so.

With that, let me just welcome those who are here tonight. What we're going to do is go through a Podcast that I was asked to give a review of the basically this podcast is.

Um.

Called the alabaster jar. This was one that they did. Where they were I guess spent a summer some time ago Looking at what they referred to As christian myths and they dealt with a myth of the women of first timothy 2 in their women of the bible series.

So.

That's what we're going to cover tonight. I do want to just say as we always do is to let you guys know that if you want to come in here. We would greatly appreciate if you come on in. And if you want to you could do that.

The way to do it is to go to apologetics live .com.

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Then to just click on the duck icon. I I want to get folks who are watching if you could just let me know. You're hearing me. Okay. That everything's working on your end because I got no one to to test with.

Um, especially since i'm seeing a facebook user who are saying Are we live? Where is this taped? I guess it's recorded already. Um. So i'm getting kind of concerned that uh, this is going out properly.

So if if folks in the chat could let me know audio is good. Thank you. Jason. Jason cave is saying the audio is good. All right, so sorry for the slight hiccup there uh, I did want to. There was so much in the news that I was Trying to struggle with what to do in the in the news section, uh, one of the things that uh, I I just want to touch base on though is to let you all know that uh, This is the last week i'll be doing a live one at least for a little while.

Um.

And so.

Uh, we're going to be. Going. I'll be headed to the philippines for three weeks.

So.

I don't know i'll be talking to drew and aaron and see if they're going to set something up. I don't know if we'll be able to do that or not. So we may have no shows for the next three weeks just to let you know.

Um, so I do wanted to to let everyone know about that. Uh some topics that and and folks I do appreciate you emailing me ideas for topics. Um, if that's something you have some ideas what you want to do.

You can just contact us. Contact us by going to. Info at striving for eternity .com. Info at striving for eternity .com. And so if you go there you will be able to get.

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Some some ways of letting us know some topics some topics that we've been asked to talk about that. We'll probably do. When I get back in may is the question of is truth divisive? Can christians donate sperm.

We'll have to dig into that. I have never been asked that one before. Uh, why do entitled people not see it? In other words, why don't they see that they're entitled and then the follow-up to that is can christians feel entitled?

Can sin be present in heaven? So that's another one and then um The the Let's see. What was this other one? Uh small sins and large sins have a payment yet Colossians 2 all sin was paid at the cross. So we will look about the I the View of is there different degrees of sin?

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So, uh with that, um, let's get into this. I drew is uh Unexpectedly, uh had to go his uh, his wife is ended up having some plans and so Therefore he could not make it. Or at least he's probably gonna be here later.

So I want to jump into this and folks if you have questions if you have things Uh that you'd like us to talk about you can always pop them into the chat, but it is much better If you just join us if you would join us live, that's the best way to get your questions answered so let's jump into this podcast the um, Let me just read a little bit about this podcast as I look over here.

Sorry for those watching that i'm looking at this screen here and uh, it says the the description of this is paul's instruction for timothy concerning a group of women in first timothy 2 Has unfortunately been used to silence many women throughout the history of the church.

Lynn and serene wrestle through the myths and themes around the contentious passage context Context matters and lynn carefully provides a helpful explanation of all the different elements. That that were at work in the passage.

Learn more about seminary now courses and I guess lynn t lynn's women's of the new testament course.

Uh.

So I guess she's teaching at a seminary. So right off the bat that kind might tell us some things. I don't know anything about this podcast nor these women before this. So. With that, let me let me just jump right in because I I didn't play the full Uh 30 minutes actually.

It's.

Like 28 minutes, but we we grabbed a number of clips from this. And so i'm hoping that we will have.

Uh.

Some something that will help us understand this unique view now. I am going to say That I do think this is a rather unique view that they have. So this is something where I have not heard this argument before.

It doesn't mean that just because i've never heard it it's wrong. It's not because it's maybe the only person that has this view that it's wrong. I think it's wrong for other reasons and we're going to get into those reasons.

So let us begin and I will start by playing some clips now. I want to just play different clips that they have. Some of these are going to be longer and I understand that but So but I want to make sure that we get the context and we engage with them.

So let me play this first one. It's going to be about 46 Seconds. So here here this is.

Emotional Appeals and the Claim That Scripture Must Always Encourage

In the lens through which all other women Named and unnamed in in the new testament are evaluated. So so I thought all right, let's take a look at first timothy 2 and the Passage that I mean. I'm kind of joking, but I also know it is it has been Interpreted in certain ways that have caused great heartache.

Uh.

In my own life and in many women, um. Who have used this? Who have heard the scripture? Not as something that builds them up in the lord, but something that tears them down. So I want to offer another way of looking at it um that I hope will uh.

Dispel the shadow and bring light.

Okay, so right off the bat. You hear the personal nature of this. She's her arguments are going to be because it hurt her and her. She's also made the point if you heard it. She said that Scripture has to lift up now.

This is a problem. We see in christianity today That people have this view that scripture must always lift us up and and never. Well make us feel bad because everything is about feelings. The reality is that as we end up seeing in this.

The.

Woman here speaking.

Is.

Talking first off saying that the the common way of understanding this passage. Well, it hurts her it it has affected her emotionally. Um, maybe I don't know but being that she's teaching at a seminary.

Maybe it's that people say that she is not supposed to be teaching and she feels that that is something uh that Makes this interpretation that people have wrong now someone we have jesse saying good point an appeal to emotional fallacy.

Exactly, right. Uh, if you go back to the episode I did on my rap report I did a rap report. Series on what is a pastor? There's should be an article on striving fraternity .org. That josiah nichols either wrote or is writing.

I don't know if it's out yet uh on that subject that puts all of the 10 episodes together. On what is a pastor but episode two and three and four. Dealt with what a pastor is not a pastor is not a woman.

And so what we ended up seeing Is as I went through there is I gave all the emotional arguments that people have. For women being pastors or preachers and then the biblical arguments that people would make here.

And so, uh, chris huff is saying feelings are not the judge of truth. Exactly. We we should not let our feelings be the judge of what is true or not and so She was not liking this. She's saying that women are being hurt by this because it doesn't lift them up.

The reality is scripture doesn't always lift us up a lot of times. I don't know about you. But for me as I read scripture a lot of the times I read the scripture and i'm not going. Oh, that's so encouraging.

I'm going ouch. I got some things I got to work on. And so when people are looking for the scripture to be a feel-good Thing. I I wonder if this is just another form of witchcraft. Yeah, yeah, exactly what i'm said witchcraft where people think they could just go to the bible and just Read some parts and it's going to just magically make them feel better.

The bible is not a motivational Document, it's not a document that you know, we talk about motivational speakers these books that people write like basically joel Holstein's stuff is all motivational speaker stuff.

It's all motivational to make you feel good. But it's not true biblically so we have to come up with the deal with the fact that what is truth.

So.

Chris huff is is making the point that that I said, uh, he says scripture will lift us up as it disciplines us. That's right. That's exactly what it does. So let's jump into some more what she has to say.

This next clip is another 47 second one. So it's a little bit of a longer one, but let's listen and then address this.

I think one of the myths that that happens is that this passage is seen as Transcultural like above culture.

And.

I just want to say that that's both. That statement is both a yes and a no in as much as this is Paul's letter to a church and in that sense, it's really important that we understand the Immediate context because it's a letter and so He's gonna paul is going to assume That his immediate audience understands certain things right it's Communication that has a lot of facet expectations implicit expectations.

So in that sense we're going to really pay attention to the history of the historical context then. On the other hand, it is also god's word for god's people down through the ages. So in that sense it speaks to every culture.

But it is not transcultural In the sense that there is no culture as part of it, right that it is somehow like a commandment thou shalt not murder as though it just sort of steps out of Any particular Set of circumstances.

So I think that's one myth that we need to To address that somehow this speaks for all time about all women. Everywhere, right? That's just not the the way you would understand something in an epistle.

Nevertheless, it is god's word For us today and so it's important that we understand it as best we can.

Okay, so again, this is from the alabaster Jar podcast. This is lynn from I just have her name lynn from uh seminary now. So she I guess teaches at seminary, but the a lot some of what she said there is true, but it's mixed with error.

She's she's trying to say you don't take an epistle and give it a universal application. Why not. In in fact, that's a lot of what we do. Uh, chris huff is saying it he said this is what we call a word salad.

You know kathy is saying this is horrible theology and and it is because The as we go through this passage the reason we say that this is Universal is because paul makes arguments For this instruction based in creation.

So.

How do we know that lying is wrong? Because god is not a liar. So we get it from the nature of god. Right. How do we know that murder is wrong because god's not a murderer. We get it from the nature of god.

So.

How do we know that women are not to teach or have authority over men? Because that's how god created men and women. He he bases it in the creation order and the sin order. You can see that in uh. As you look at first timothy 2 12 to 14.

Well 13 and 14. He says for it was adam Who was first created then eve so that's the creation order. Now that would say that this is universal for all men and women ever since adam and eve. So if you have any man or woman, that's not the offspring of adam adam and eve then maybe you can make an argument there but what we see is that.

All.

By the inspirational holy spirit. In other words god wrote that the reason he gives this instruction I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. But to remain quiet the reason is for adam was created first.

So that takes us all the way back to creation making this universal. Okay, and then verse 14 and it was not adam who was deceived but the woman who was deceived. Who fell into transgression? So what you see there is the sin order so Paul is making the argument based in creation.

And that is what makes it universal. So when she says, oh, well, this isn't the way we would interpret this that's.

She's she's.

Sort of right that there are times that we don't just take something that and make it universal. There are things that are written for specific Audiences we get that. But as we look at this. We're going to look at the context the very thing.

She said we need to do we look at the context to realize that. It's not arguing what she's claiming. It's arguing. All right, so let's listen to more what lynn has to say here from the alabaster jar podcast they did.

This is a shorter one. Uh, but I think this will be somewhat helpful for us.

I think another myth that happens in this is.

People.

Read this passage and they forget that paul actually had female co-workers so they forget that priscilla In acts chapter 18 taught apollos.

Okay.

Now if you go back and listen to the episode I did on what a pastor is not that pastor is not a woman.

Um.

You will see That I deal with priscilla in episode three. On my rap report podcast just search for rap report rap with two p's. But priscilla in acts 18. Do we see her teaching apollos? No, actually we don't.

Because the one thing that lynn here in this podcast that alabaster jar podcast Neglects to talk about is the fact that she was with someone else. Does anyone want to guess who she was? Oh, I already have someone in before I even could say it someone was ahead of me and that was chris uh hon holds who says Priscilla and aquila.

She left that out exactly the point. I was going to make chris Uh that I have here in my notes. She is never mentioned without her husband priscilla is mentioned in acts 18 roman 16 2 corinthians 11 and 2 timothy 4 with her husband.

She's never mentioned without her husband, there's no evidence that she taught apollos or anyone else. She could have been completely silent with her husband speaking because it says that priscilla and aquila Were teaching him.

So which one did the teaching? This is something you often see these people that want to argue that women can be pastors do. They leave out the part of the passages that they don't like or don't fit with what their argument is okay, so This is now melissa is saying.

These women use the same old arguments. No melissa. They won't uh, that's why we're going to engage with this and that's why we're we were asked to engage. Excuse me engage with this because The thing is is that this is different she is going to have something different.

Uh, I have I don't know who this is facebook user saying. Hey, i'm jay watching from the philippines uh, so jay if you're out there, I hope you are coming to the Uh, either the pre-conference on woke the you know dealing with wokeness, uh, or if you're going to the main conference in uh, either in bahal which is still I think still has seats but in Um the mainland there we are filled up uh in manila, but I hope you're going to strange fire in philippines, so Uh, don't want to miss that if you're if you're there if you missed out on manila, you can still catch up with us in bahal with a pre-conference in manila, so this is the a typical thing that people do and I want you to Notice it and and jason cave says as well.

He says omission is a lie. This is purposeful omissions, okay, it's purposeful.

Um.

And because of that. What you end up seeing people doing is they will leave out. To make it seem like oh, well the bible teaches us. She just assumes this she's saying that oh well. She taught as if the bible's encouraging it.

And so what you end up seeing? Is the fact that they do this on purpose. Because the scripture doesn't actually teach what they say. I mean, how do you answer this very simple? You read the context of what they're saying.

You read all the passages and you can go and check them out and notice if priscilla is ever mentioned anywhere by herself and teaching in any form. We don't know who did the teaching it could have been her husband and she stopped by silently.

Now the fact that paul had women with him well jesus did that too as co-workers as You know disciples, but that doesn't mean that they were teaching. That's an assumption. That she makes she assumes that because these women were with paul.

They must be teaching like paul. That's a major difference. Um, and and you also have to take into account That just because she's talking Sharing the gospel with someone can a woman share the gospel with a person?

Well, that's very different than preaching in a in a church service. Okay, and remember i'm my view is that this is. This instruction is within the church.

Okay.

She is going to later on explain what she thinks the purpose of second first timothy is. And i'm going to say that I think she gets it very wrong uh, okay, so I just see some comments here. Joe. Joe kanko.

My brother is saying everyone wish andrew a happy birthday tomorrow. Well, if you're if anyone's thinking of doing that make sure you go out and wish joe kanko a happy birthday Today because today's his birthday.

He beats me by a day. Well, okay day in a few years, maybe. So let's continue with the next part of what she has to say for to tell us here we have junia.

Who is a leader in the church? I I think. Uh, she was an apostle. Uh, but even if you're going to debate that title. She clearly was a leader in the church so much so that she earned the reward of being arrested just like paul.

Okay.

Okay.

Let's see if this makes logical sense. Because she's an elite because she was arrested like paul was arrested. That makes her a leader like paul was a leader. Does that make every human being that's ever been arrested a leader in the church because?

They're like paul. No, and then she just says I think she was an apostle. Which makes that claim? Notice she never gives you support for any of that and you can listen to the full podcast if you want to go find it.

And and see that she never does but like priscilla. She is also mentioned with someone else her husband and there is no mention of any role that she has in the church. So any use of this to insert something That like she's an apostle.

Is inputting it into scripture because there's nothing. Nothing. Let me try saying this again. Nothing That says that she had any role in the church. Especially one of apostle or leader. Junia is mentioned as a relation of paul's but that does not make her a leader in any way.

Okay, she's referred to in acts 16 as a kinsman of paul. He says my kinsman. Her but you know, he's mentioning her in context of.

Her.

Husband. Now, I see chris huff backstage. Let me bring him in. He's been chatting up. So he figured. He figured all right. Enough of the chats. I should just jump in here and join the conversation. Yeah, man.

What's up, buddy?

Good, so so uh, jason cave has this right? He's he says wrong one. He says total isogenesis. Isogenesis is The when someone takes a meaning and reads it into a text instead of taking the meaning out of the text.

And that's what she does here. She is taking this and basically. With the past two that we see priscilla and jimmy. Uh, she is inserting her own assumptions.

Inserting and omitting and. Yeah, and that's what I put in the chat. I said it's it's not. I didn't say it's not isogenesis I just said narcissus. Yes, because this this whole thing started with there it is with.

I don't like the way this makes me feel. Correct. And and so because I don't like the way this makes me feel i'm gonna read my framework into what scripture says. And then you know take my little red pen and mark things out.

So just because you do that in your physical bible doesn't actually mean that you're removing anything. It just means that you're Stuck on yourself. So yeah.

Yeah, chris. Chris hon holds is saying tons of Injecting one's own biased into the text here. Exactly now. Um kt has got a good point. Um. Saying how do we know that she's actually a female? This is a is an issue because this name can be Uh used as male or female so that's understood to recognize.

And so as we as we deal with it, I I just now these are the typical arguments. She's going to get into some different arguments. That are are very nuanced. Uh, very different and I will admit ones I had not never heard before.

Okay. It doesn't mean i've heard every argument that's out there. It just means that this one is more unique.

Um.

But I think as as chris huff said She's trying to make the bible say something. It does not say she's trying to make the bible say what she wished it would say so she could feel better about herself. It seems I'm, just i'm assuming that since she's at a seminary that she's teaching at a seminary unless it's a seminary of all women.

Where she only teaches women classes i'm going to assume. Just it's an an educated guess I could be wrong. It's a hypothesis. Yeah, i'm assuming that she's teaching men in seminary, okay. Uh, just from the way she argues for the this this specific text the what she has said what we've already heard.

Uh, and that she's teaching at a seminary. I don't I don't know what seminary now is so I have not looked it up.

Um.

I know some are saying well, you should have done your homework. Well, I did the homework of examining what she said compared to scripture. That's as far as I wanted to take it. I didn't have. All that much time.

I I you know with the philippines I had to do. Four or actually no five new messages on the philippines for the philippines guy. I got a fifth one. I got 11 or 12. No wait, yeah 11 or 12 messages and and well nor should you you know.

It's it's I mean, it's one of those things that you can very clearly see Just by using any amount of discernment what her motivations are. Um, you know, so the fact that she's Touting herself as being a professor At at a seminary which tells you all you need to know about the seminary.

Um,.

So.

Seminary, I will give the benefit that could. I don't sure they wouldn't be playing business for a very long. Probably because right?

Will you will you put up matt hagan's uh comments? I was I was.

Just I was waiting for you to stop because this is this is the new term. This is called wish a jesus. So you have not wishing for jesus. Which is you have exegesis. Exegesis is where we take the meaning out of the text.

That's how we should do the study of god's word. We look at what god's word says and we get the meaning out of it. Isagesis is where we put a meaning into the text and I guess wish jesus is where you just wish the bible said.

What you also said, uh emo jesus, so it's emotional exegesis. So yes, he combined those two as well.

Which is which is emoji. Jesus is you're. You're putting your emotions in now. Melissa's asking. I'm surprised that deborah hasn't been brought up yet actually. No, actually it wasn't it. Yeah, and so remember this.

So these are the only two that she's going to mention that gets into. The typical arguments you hear. And so. But for those who do bring up deborah, I I encourage you to check out Uh my podcast I did on what a pastor is episode three because if you look at judges chapter four.

Um, deborah is the worst example to use. Because deborah tells barack that he's going to be judged. Because he won't go to war without a this woman deborah.

So she we're in judges in our bible reading plan that we just did and yeah.

So it's it's like she's telling him that this is this is not what god wants. And and her her going is like condemnation on him. Like she's not believing she's the leader that everyone claims. She is.

Yeah, well, and can we can we. I want to go back to something real quick to. Um when you were talking about just a few minutes ago, like is it not okay for women to pray and and. First corinthians 11.

Right drew and I did a podcast on head coverings and we we talked about this. But first corinthians 11 and verse 5 says. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying.

So.

Shamed when we finish the verse shames her head for she is one in the same as the woman whose head is shaped. So so the the the thing is with this is that doesn't mean that women aren't allowed to pray publicly or to read scripture publicly, um,.

Or something like that. Like because we very clearly see paul giving an example of that in first corinthians 11.

Um.

I just I I. And i'm sure we'll get there. So but it's I don't understand. Well, I do understand because it's a pride thing. This god's call for women is much higher um than then. I this woman lynn, um, Tries to tries to tries to say, you know and tries to defend women being pastors.

It's like I to quote to paraphrase john macarthur. It's like like the highest calling the highest calling for a woman anywhere is to be a wife and a mother um, and and to to care for a home and to. Like like there's nothing degrading about that.

Like that is that is the creator of the universe psalm 33 says that he spoke speaks stars into existence. Like that's his design for you. Yeah, and that's why are you trying to exceed that?

Yeah, verse 15 says talks about that very thing that they're going to be women. The women will be preserved through bearing of children If they continue in the faith and love. Sanctity was self-restraint.

So so it it highlights that. So so now let's start getting into Her arguments her more unique arguments. So this this next one is just a 12 seconds.

We have phoebe. Uh who. Paul entrusts the letter to the romans that would be delivered to the romans and as was the custom of the day. She would have read that letter to the roman churches and exegeted it interpreted it for them.

Now I want you to see how much assumption went into that. Okay, because there's nothing I I forgot there was one more in the phoebe mentioned. So phoebe is phoebe is is mentioned as a deacon some argue.

Well, the word for deacon remember is a transliterated word deacon us.

Mm-hmm.

It is the word we would refer to as a servant a waiter of tables. Yeah lsb translates it.

Yeah, now I commend you to our sister phoebe who is a servant of the church, which is correct.

Correct. And so yes, the word is deacon us, but it does not mean she's a leader. In fact deacons are not leaders in the church. They are servants of the church. So she's definitely not a pastor as people will try to argue.

But again.

Where I i'm not quite sure where. Anywhere in scripture. It says that phoebe was the one that delivered the letter to the church. So I want you just to see that what she does here. She just makes Dogmatic statements and this is something you see people do all the time.

They just make a dogmatic statement. Well, look I have a I have a seminary degree I teach at a seminary and therefore I could just make these claims and that makes them true. No, this is all assumption.

Hmm first off, uh does a does the person who delivers the letter. Do they? Read the letter.

Possibly maybe.

But we actually think historically they would have given it to the pastor of the church who would have read the letter.

They would have given it to the elders of the church. The elders of the church would have delineated that to to the people of the church.

Correct. And and so. The the assumption that because she delivers it she would read it I is not what we end up seeing historically. It's not we see when the the letters that we see the epistles are delivered to the elders.

Okay, so.

I'm going. All right. Well, you missed that in first. Lynn snowflake's opinions. Chapter three chapter three verse one.

That's yeah, that's what it is.

Or a second. Second, was it that. Uh, uh, matt's like always says second, uh,.

Uh, I I I say second opinion sometimes yeah.

But what you end up seeing is. She's then assumes that someone that the person who delivers it exegetes it And not the pastor. Well, where do we get that from? You know when someone makes a statement like that and that's that is the proof of The the when you make an argument.

Okay, you're going to lay out a premise. You're going to give support for the premise that leads it to the conclusion so you have supporting arguments and then you have the the conclusion and if your conclusion Is not supported from the support Then it's not a good argument.

What she does is she doesn't support anything. She just makes the claim. This is a begging the question fallacy. Here we go. Uh.

Chris brown second hesitations.

That's that was what it was. Thank you. Chris. Obviously he listens. No. No, this melissa has the one that I was thinking. Here we go. Second.