Northwest Nazerene University (NNU) and the heretical teaching of some professors

One, two, three. Welcome to Apologetics Live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro, and Pastor Justin Pierce.

Well, we are live, Apologetics. Live, here to answer any questions you have about God and the Bible. We can take that challenge. You have a question, we can answer it. Let me bring in Dr. Silvestro. Welcome, sir.

Hey, how are you? Good, good, good. So We haven't been on together in a little while.

In a long time, between both of our travel schedules and we both hit the road next week, right? Yeah, we're both gonna be out in Kentucky. Not as far of a ride for you, granted, but a little bit more for me.

But we will both be out there next week at the Truth Matters. And then the week after that, I head to Washington, DC. So just got back from doing an ambassador evangelism training with Pastor Kofi out there in Medford, Oregon.

Great church, it's a church plant. Starting out well, starting out solid. And the first thing they wanted to really do in their equipping conferences is evangelism. A good thing for a church plant to do.

So this is a ministry of Striving for Eternity. We welcome you guys to go check out everything at strivingforeternity .org. I know that I have family coming in, in, oh, less than an hour they are on their road, waiting to come down.

And so just before they get here, I'm gonna have to bow out. So I'm gonna hand it off to you, Dr. Silvestro. And you set up the early part. For those who are new, I should actually describe how we do this show.

We don't do this very often, we should. This is a live show. For any of you that have any question about God and the Bible, you can just go to apologeticslive .com. At that site, you will be able to see where to participate.

There's a little stream yard icon. It's a duck, I don't know why it's a duck, but it's a duck. And just click on that and you can join us there, ask any question. We do go to YouTube and Facebook and see where people put in comments.

Sometimes we catch them, they sometimes go, because we get so many comments on the different platforms, we don't see them all. So the best thing to do is come in and ask any questions. But what we try to do is teach you how to do apologetics and we deal with different issues.

Apologetics, Evangelism, and Church Support

Tonight, we're gonna deal with a specific university and some things going on there and a student from there. I see Pastor Josiah is also backstage, so hopefully he'll come in and give his wisdom. But I do gotta say, Anthony, before we start, I just finished reading a little book that you read.

It is called Halloween Under the Light of Scripture, The History of Halloween by, oh, check this out, our very own Pastor Justin Pierce. What do you know? This is only about 40 pages. It's not very big.

This was really something that he just did as a starter. I think he's planning on doing a longer version. It is available on Amazon and not very expensive. So if you want to learn a little bit more about Halloween and get prepared for October, I know it seems a long ways away, but he has a really good way of showing you kind of like Pastor Josiah does of explaining how to do harmoneutics.

That seems to be an important thing for all of us here. And he goes through explaining harmoneutics and how to apply it to an issue like Halloween. So I recommend that to y 'all.

Yeah, it's a good book. I got it as soon as it was available and read it. And I honestly, it was good. I can't wait for him to build this out into a bigger book now.

Yeah, which he said he's going to do. Yeah.

I preached at a church the last two Sundays and it was all on apologetics. I did evangelism training there three years ago. The church has taken off in evangelism and in church growth as a result of the work they've put in since those sermons.

I went back to teach on apologetics. So to build off of some of that. And it's amazing to watch what happens in a church that has this type of growth.

Yeah, so if you want us to come out to your church and do our Vassar evangelism, or maybe, hey, we got a lot of evangelism going, but we've got people that have questions. You want a presuppositional apologetics course.

We come in for a weekend and help your church. That's what striving for an attorney does. We come in and now some of you are saying, but you don't know my church. It's a small little church and no one comes in to visit us.

Yes, we do. That's actually exactly who we target. We wanna go to the churches that no one else will come to because they're just too small and they can't afford it. And so we have our monthly supporters that help us to be able to go to churches where we fly across the country and get nothing, not even a love offering.

That's okay, because that's what our monthly supporters do. So I'll also give that as a shout out. If you want to support us monthly, we wouldn't mind it. Just go to strivingforeternity .org slash support.

And that's a way you could do that. So before we bring in our guests, well, let me ask anything else that you want to mention before we get to some questions.

No, I think we should get to your questions. I do wanna give a shout out to my wife though, because you know what spring is, Andrew, on Thursdays in Ohio, right? It's the start of garage sales season.

Yeah, poor thing. So hence I got a little more of a tan today. We've been out garage sailing and as you know, she does a remarkable job of getting into conversations and she got some doozies today for us to get into.

One is Pentecostal who is all over the board. It was really incredible. He literally told us that Jesus is talking to himself when he's talking to the father. Oh, wow, okay. It was really, really strange.

You know, for an apologetic though, right? I mean, I think one of the best ways to address the one is Pentecostal is I say, well, how are your sins paid for? And I just walk them through the understanding that the father's wrath was poured out on his son according to Isaiah 53.

You don't understand the atonement until you understand that there was a penalty to be paid on that cross. The same penalty would be paid by sinners in hell fraternity. It wasn't for Christ's sacrifice.

They also, I guess, have schizophrenia at the baptism of Christ.

Well, there's no explanation for that.

But John's hearing the father and seeing the spirit. Wait a minute.

Yeah, well, he tried to say that they were just stories for us to get an idea of what's going on. And so he begged for personal revelation. And I guess his father was a bishop and he won his Pentecostal church with lots of personal revelations, which I said, how was he any different than Muhammad?

Yeah. Or Joseph Smith or Ellen G. White or any of these other false teachers that are out there.

That now is one of the biggest problems. So we're gonna be doing it on my Rap Report podcast. I'm gonna be getting together with Nathaniel Jolly and Eki who do Truth Be Known podcast. And we decided we're gonna do a podcast together.

What are we gonna discuss? Is let's discuss the two biggest problems in the American church. The sufficiency of scripture and hermeneutics. I mean, when you're asking for personal revelation, you're saying, the Bible just isn't enough for me.

I need more than God's word. But that's essentially what they're saying. And so I do gotta say, I mean, this is just kind of funny because what you end up doing.

There are people who asked if Justin Pierce is alive in the comment section.

So I just thought I'd put up his. Yeah, he's on the Money Brothers is what he said there. So here's the thing. You have a different style of evangelism. It's called garage sale or yard sale evangelism, right?

You go where they're looking to be out in their garage or in their property and they want you to come to them. And they're not gonna leave because, well, they're trying to sell things. That's right. Here's the hint though, if you're gonna try this.

So it is a good thing to do. The thing is when other people show up, then it becomes where they can just jettison your conversation to go over to someone else. So if you want to do this now, if you wanna get the good deals, you go early in the morning before everyone gets there.

If you wanna have the conversation, you go after the morning crowd leaves and you're sitting there all day bored out of their skull, hoping to sell just a few more things. And they got nothing else to do and no one else to talk to but you.

That's right. And you speak the gospel loud when you do give it so that anybody else shopping can hear it too. So we make it worthwhile.

We had a good time today. And if there's any question, folks, let me just, I was telling this story recently, Anthony, you'll remember it. But Anthony's wife, Julie, has an ability to speak to anybody.

And it was quite interesting. So Anthony and I, when our wives were out, we were speaking in Redwood City, California. We were staying at, they put us up in an Airbnb. And before we headed over to the church, we decided we'd just take a walk around the neighborhood just to enjoy the beautiful weather.

And there was a guy who had his garage door open. The concrete of his garage door was paved with something. So it looked like a marble floor. He said he uses it for an extra room when he has parties. But Julie just kind of like walks right up to him, starts a conversation over the floor.

And before we know it, he's showing us his AfroTurf in the backyard and then bringing us in his office. Astro, not AfroTurf. AstroTurf. The fake grass that Ray Comfort has in his backyard, okay? Yes, right.

We go from there, although I will say that guy's fake grass was way more comfortable and felt more realistic than Ray Comfort's. But from there, we end up in his office. He's like walking us all through his house.

People he just met on the street. Of course, once we were in his office, I quickly identified him as a Mormon, which Julie was like, how did you know that? He had the Mormon Jesus hanging on his wall.

Yeah, you picked that off pretty fast. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So we were talking to, because I was talking to someone, and they were like, oh yeah, I walk in, I can see the SDA Jesus because they can spot that.

They all have their own version of Jesus there. So let's get to some questions that came up early. I know that you have Sean in the background. We'll bring him in. But I know I got to jettison soon. So one of the questions I was asked, and I was specifically asked not to give this person's name.

He doesn't want his pastors to find out. This is someone who had listened, came in touch with Apologetics Live through the RA Fuentes debate, if you guys remember that, on Calvinism. And so since then he's discovered his pastors are very much against Calvinism.

And when he was trying to answer some things, it came up as a question of what translation of the Bible do you use? And when he said he uses many translations, the pastors got upset and told him 1611 King James Bible is what you should be using.

Now, so he asked, I want to give an answer, but, and he didn't want to, he couldn't come on. Obviously he doesn't want his name known, got it. So here's the thing. How do we answer the King James, it's known as King James only controversy?

People who believe you must use the King James Bible. There's two groups of people with this. If you run into this folks, one is the people that actually think the 1611 is inspired. And the other is those that just prefer the 1611, or the King James.

Those that think that the King James is an inspired translation, but they don't hold to the 1611 as inspired have a bigger problem. Just so you know, the 1611 was the first edition, but it had been, there had been several others.

And so you ended up having the, up until the 17, I think 1786 is with the last edition. And so what you end up seeing is that the 1611 was originally done because you had King James who was after a battle between the Catholics and then the Protestants, there was this battle where basically England was being split.

So why did King James want a Bible in English? He wanted an English Bible to satisfy the reformers, but he wanted it to include the Apocrypha to satisfy the Roman Catholics. That's an important distinction because when they say the 1611 was inspired by God, they're saying that the Apocrypha was inspired by God.

Now, many of them don't know that the 1611 had the Apocrypha in it because they don't use a 1611 version. They use a version they can read in modern English, which is the 1700s. If I give you a 1611 version, it's gonna take you a little bit of time to realize there's no S's, there are F's, there's no V's, there are U's, there's different word spellings.

The King James Bible in 1611 didn't have the standardized English we have today. There was things that they did that caused confusion. For example, the transliteration of two words. One is deacon. We have an English word for that, servant, but that transliteration, because at the time in the Anglican church that they were doing this, they didn't wanna translate the word servant for those who were acting as leaders.

The other one is the word baptismo. We have an English word for that, to plunge or to dip, but they sprinkled or poured, and therefore to translate that word was a problem. So why do I bring these things up real quick?

Because if the 1611 is inspired, then God created confusion in his inspired text, especially that most of the people that are King James only are Baptists. The baptism one is kind of a touchy situation.

But the more important thing is that if the 1611 is inspired, then God inspired the Apocrypha and the Catholics would be right. We have to understand why King James did that. Now, there's a lot of reasons for, if people say, okay, well, the 1611 is not inspired, but the King James is.

Well, let's remember that this was based off a text of scripture, Greek text of scripture that was rushed, and it didn't have, it didn't use as many of the manuscripts that were available. So this becomes an important thing to look at because this shows us that when we look at this, there are better translations because they use more of the manuscripts that were available.

We also realize that when we look at the King James that we have, people will say, well, this is the text that God inspired or God wants us to have. The initial several prefaces to the King James all stated that the King James should be updated as language changes.

They did not believe, those that did the translation did not believe it was inspired. So if your pastor is arguing for that, be concerned because he has left really focusing on Christ to focus on a translation.

They end up worshiping a book rather than the author of the book. Anthony, you have anything you wanna add to that?

Yeah, it's the 1769 is the one that people typically read from. So that's the newer version of it. And from my understanding, I don't remember which one it is and where I read the quote at, but a large percentage of the King James was actually copied from either the Geneva or Wycliffe.

Well, so Wycliffe had his Bible. So yeah, it's Wycliffe. It's like 75%. Yeah. I mean, there was an English translation. So the question is if 75 of it was from an already existing translation, why did they need a new translation?

The very simple reason was he was trying to, I mean, every King or Queen was, cause it was really the two Queens before that were trying to take the whole country Reformed or whole country Roman Catholic.

And they were taking, and every time they did that, they took all the pew Bibles out of every church, replaced it with Latin ones, or took it out and replaced it with the Geneva one. And so what you ended up seeing is that he decided he would do it in English to satisfy one, but do it, add the Apocrypha to satisfy another.

So if much of it's already existing, much of that translation was already existing, then what he really added was the Apocrypha. And most people aren't gonna wanna have the, believe the Apocrypha when they hold to King James only.

Now, some will make the argument, and James White has a great book on this called King James Controversy, because some will make the argument that in the, and they've really focused on the NIV. That was where they had the problem.

And I'm not a big fan of the NIV, but it has its place. It's just not something you should use for study, for serious study. What they'll do is show that, oh, look at these passages where the deity of Christ was removed.

Well, as we do textual criticism, we realize the deity of Christ wasn't in that passage. That's why they, it's not that they removed it. It's that in the earlier manuscripts, it wasn't there, it was added in.

And one of the neat things what James White does is he takes, I think it's the New American Standard and the King James, and shows passages where that same argument, he says, well, see, here's where they deny the deity of Christ, because the earlier manuscripts had that in there.

They call him Lord Jesus. And so that argument can go either way. Yeah, that's right. All right, so one other question that I was asked to answer on the show is the question of, can I explain the difference between pro-life and abolitionism?

Okay, many people think that those are two of the same, that we can have abolition, we can have pro-life, they're both toward the same agenda. Yes and no. So this is a good way of me illustrating this.

And this actually comes from the Daily Wire. The Daily Wire gave 10 most common pro-life arguments or pro-abortion arguments and ways to debunk them. And so the question is, what about rape and incest?

So I'm gonna read their response, and I wanna use this as the example. So it says, this is not an argument, it's a hypothetical. Rape and incest only account for 1 of all abortions. These are hard and rare cases.

They must mitigate the individual moral culpability of a woman to choose abortion, but they do not change the fact that an unborn child is a distinct human entity, i .e. a human being, i .e. a person, and therefore worthy of the same protections the rest of us receive.

We do not kill the child for the sins of the father. If you want to execute someone for rape, execute the rapist, not the baby. Now, that's pretty good, but here's the problem with that. And this is a good way of illustrating the difference between pro-life and abolition.

The argument they made there is good. It is a human being. That's important. And so in abolition, it says, we need to outlaw all abortion. All of it, why? Because as that argument says, it is a human being.

Pro-life argument would be, yes, we need to outlaw all human life because it's a human being. But we can take the small steps and say, okay, let us create laws that outlaw all abortion except for rape and incest.

And that gets us a little bit closer to the point where the abolitionist says, no, all of it, outlawed. Rape, incest, any argument. That's a human being and you protect it. And so I thought that the answer they gave is a good way for me to illustrate the difference between an abolitionist and a pro-life.

And pro-life is gonna say, we could take those incremental steps. Let's fight to get this small bill passed. Here's the reality, folks. That small bill that you think is small, you have to fight tooth and nail for anyway.

The same fight you have to do for an abolitionist one anyway. So might as well go for what is right and say it's all outlawed. So that would be my way of illustrating the difference. Anthony, your thoughts on that.

Yeah, well, I wanna remind everyone, we had a great show with Sarah Cleveland, who is nationally known on this subject. And we had her on, I think it was September of last year. So go in the archives and go find that show.

One thing that she did say though, and you know, cause there's different, there's disagreements among the abolition movement. She was really clear that as an abolitionist, that she believes the right position is, we want to outlaw all abortion.

I completely agree with her. The pro-life movement says, as you said, Andrew, that we believe in getting increments. Now the abolitionists, there's some abolitionists that are happy to say, look, I'm gonna fight for abolishing all abortion.

But if I get an incremental bill, I'll take it and then keep on working. And that's what Sarah had said. Some abolitionists don't like that either. They don't like compromise whatsoever. And so, you know, there's a little spectrum in there, but the bottom line is, as you said, Andrew, it's do you believe in abolishing abortion from the get-go or do you believe in just taking baby steps towards that process?

And that is episode 117. If you wanna go search for the title, just go to christianpodcastcommunity .org and just do, you can search for just Sarah Cleveland or the full title is Abolition of Abortion with Sarah Cleveland.

So that was an excellent episode. Of course, Anthony was running that one. So that automatically means, folks, those of you who are regular know what that means. It means it went into overtime. Anthony time, as we know here as Anthony time when it goes over.

So that was several episodes ago, like 30 some episodes ago. So I encourage you to check that out. So those are the two questions that I was asked if I could answer. And for those listening on the podcasts, I will try to drop the link to that previous episode in the show notes.

So I'm gonna, at this point, I'm gonna hand it over to you because you have the guest and you know him better. So you could introduce him.

I do, yep. So let's bring in first of all, Pastor Josiah Nichols. So Josiah, thank you for joining us tonight again. Hi. As you can tell, we're secretly making you a regular now too, so.

Yeah, between him and Justin Peters. Anthony, I don't know if you're able to watch. We had Justin, since he's been here more than me in the past few months, he was the host and I was the special guest.

He's been on a bunch, yeah. So that's good.

Josiah's been on that too. So, but now I wanna bring on a special guest. And so without further ado, cause it's a little later than I thought it was going to be. Sean, how are you doing tonight? I'm doing pretty good.

How about yourself? Doing well. Thank you for being on. And I'll ask you to speak up just a little bit more if you can or get the microphone closer to you. Sounds good. Thank you for being on. And so this is really interesting what I had, what had happened to me.

So I was out in Boise, Idaho area back in March and right after Shepherd's Conference, and I was teaching for six straight days. And somebody came up to me and said, hey, I have this letter. I wanna email you if you don't mind seeing it because there's a student who's been fighting back at Northwest Nazarene University, which is in the area.

Which just so happens, I know several people that actually go there and have had issues with the doctrinal positions on a number of the professors there. So I took interest in, look, anybody who is gonna stand up for truth, I take an interest in.

I wanna see what's going on. I love that idea of people standing up. And so I was happy to read this letter. What I expected to be one or two pages ended up being much more than that. And then when I saw the revised version, it's like 28 pages worth of

Yeah, it's about 17 ,000 words. It's about four times what its original size was, I revised it. But that's trying to counteract some of the allegations of me taking things out of context. Not only do I have all the evidence supporting it, behind it, but I'm like, I'll incorporate more of it in the letter itself.

To shock and awe, I guess, is the strategy I went after. Yeah. Well, I appreciate it though. I mean, you took a very

95 pieces. Yeah, right, 95 pieces of... Yeah, you should have nailed this to the front door.

Maybe, I'm on campus right now. Maybe I'll go over afterward and do that. Do that, take a picture for us. Maybe use a thumbtack.

So you don't get charged with vandalism. Right, yeah. Good idea. So, and we designed to have this show today because you literally just graduated.

Yeah, commencement was just last Saturday, so. So now they can't stop you from graduating. Nope, I mean, some professors did want to see me expelled, but I did not succeed, fortunately, for me anyway.

So that was good.

Yeah. I'd say, I appreciated the scholarship that you really went through in this paper. In this show, a lot of our listeners know this, that I had done what ended up being over 100 hours of research.

Initially, it was about 60 hours of research into a cult in Iowa that pastor had been doing a lot of very naughty things behind the scenes. And through many hours of research and talking to witnesses and whatnot, essentially the same thing you did, Sean, is had lots and lots of documentation to be able to walk out there and be able to say, look, this is what's going on.

Here's what the witnesses are saying. And at that time, I did give every opportunity for the other side to show up on the show, which they didn't do at any point. They wanted to threaten us. They wanted to tell us not to do this.

They wanted to do all kinds of stuff. But the last thing they wanted to do was actually address the allegations that were brought forth by multiple witnesses.

In fact, their first line of defense after you wouldn't stop was to come after me and tell me I had to put a stop to you because of what you were doing. And so it was to kind of go to, okay, if you don't stop, we'll go to your boss, the head of the ministry, and tell him to make you stop.

And in which case I said, you can come on the show. And I actually dealt with that letter that he sent me.

Yeah, you got a chance to deal with it too. So for me, I took a huge liking to your letter, Sean. And obviously we've talked a few times now. And I will say that I waited until today because I want to make sure you were in the clear, but I reached out to the dean and the acting dean of the school so that I could say, hey, look, we're going to have this student on, the one that you guys tried to expel, the one that you are saying he took all these professors out of context.

And of course, in the background, I've already talked to other people. So I've corroborated Sean's story anyway. And so I knew better. But what the surprise was, is as you sent me those phone numbers, I made the phone calls today.

And as you said, the one dean's out of town, the acting dean was in town. And he ended up calling me back about four hours after I called him. And boy, that was interesting. And before I get into that phone call with Dean Richard Thompson, Sean, just in general, you obviously had a number of concerns at this school.

And you started in your freshman year noticing these issues from a doctrinal perspective. And how many of those years, you were four years in school, how many of those years were you actually trying to address these situations with professors themselves?

Because I know you did that, with deans, with other people within the Nazarene church. So,.

Not necessarily framing in terms of this doesn't seem to fit what the faculty policy manual says, or what the articles of faith at the Church of Nazarene, which since they're religion faculty, they're required to affirm.

But I know that even freshman year, I raised some questions. One of the Bible professors in inter-biblical literature said something like, well, Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality.

I'm like, well, I mean, I've read Robert Gagnon. And so I know that that's just nonsense in that point. And people will say that usually don't end up affirming orthodox doctrine on homosexuality in that point, that turned out to be the case.

And so I wrote to ask him a question, never responded. But it began especially, I think, let me think here, probably late sophomore year, right before we went online for the second half of the semester.

And before we resumed in person in June, my junior year. And besides my comments in class, we can talk about more specific incidents later. But it was that year when a number of students had written a tract or a pamphlet, handed out to all the on-campus students and many of the faculty, and basically arguing homosexuality, basically pro-LGBT, it's fine, Bible's fine with that, didn't use or change its policy with respect to that.

I responded to the tract's authors. They had an email address on the back of it. It was just an anonymous email. But one of the students, she responded to me with her campus email. We talked really briefly, but then she said, I'm gonna hand you off to my good friend, Dr. Bankard, who was at the time the only philosophy professor.

And I'm like, that's kind of weird.

Well, just to be clear though, just to be clear, these were pro-homosexual tracts. Yeah, it was That were being handed out on campus.

Yes, by a number of students. As I said, one of them responded with her own email address to me. And by the way, this is when I began to think, oh, this is probably much more serious. Because if I wanted to be particularly charitable, even some of the more objectionable things I had heard previously, such I had mentioned in that Bible class, maybe he's just saying about that particular passage, but he'll still affirm homosexual practices are immoral, gay marriage, that's not legitimate.

Conceivably, it's not probable, but if I'm gonna be charitable, maybe he could take it that way. Or even when the same professor at lunch said to me, and another professor, well, whatever you think about the issue, maybe Paul's admonition, better to marry than to burn with lust, maybe that could apply to gay marriage.

Whatever you think about the issue. I'm like, well, that's kind of weird. So too with this professor, this Dr. Banker, the philosophy professor, he had a rainbow sticker on his door. But being charitable, I'm like, well, it's upside down.

So it wasn't Roy G. Biv, it was Biv Yor or whatever, upside down, maybe it means something else. And maybe he was playing devil's advocate when he said after class that probably some gay marriages are fine.

But when this came around, I'm like, oh, this is probably not looking good. But he responded, cause she had emailed the student and emailed him and said, wanna meet? And so he responded later that day, or sent an email to me.

And so we met shortly after that. He had said he had offered to speak to the faculty or rather the board of trustees, I believe, about the student's concerns. And so that's kind of set me to be a bit more, take it with more urgency my junior year, where a few issues came up.

For instance, certain author, a professor was using for a class. I had certain other objections to the author as well, including the content of the book. But what I raised with the professor was, well, you know, this guy is pretty well known for being an emergent church figure.

And among other things, being pro-LGBT, I'm just afraid the tacit implication here is that some students who will look into this guy will be like, well, it's no big deal then. And in a kind of an unforced error on this professor's part, he responded, one of the first things he said was, well, Wesleyans disagree about gay marriage.

And I'm like, yeah, but should they? Like that's the real, who cares about the descriptive fact? That was a weird way of putting it. And then he said, well, I'm confident our OT and NT professors wouldn't wholeheartedly agree that the author of Leviticus, they don't of course believe in mosaic authorship, and Paul would condemn the practices in a gay marriage.

And I'm like, okay, but, and I eventually asked him because of this, like, well, now I'm confused now. What do you think about homosexuality? And he never responded, which was kind of weird. So I had a lot of these things.

I mean, it was around this time is when I'm like, okay, I'm gonna set out to document more carefully my concerns, which eventually gave birth to this letter. But before, I'll just continue this. The gay tract came up again in my junior year.

See, one of the art professors, one of the auspices of the chaplain's office speaks at chapel, and I just rewatched it. If someone has my letter, you can actually, I think there's a link to their unlisted YouTube video.

So do you want me to give the letter out in a link? Because I can do that if you wish me to.

If you want to, that's fine. I mean, I view it as, it's a public copyright. You can do whatever you want with it.

Okay, so if you give that to me, Anthony, I'll put that in the show notes.

Okay, I'll email that to you here.

Yeah, yeah. But just briefly, this gay tract, this was about a year after it was originally written, distributed, this art professor speaks at chapel. I just rewatched it recently. It was worse than I remembered.

Very pro-LGBT and other more extreme woke stuff. But one of the things he quotes, he commends the students who wrote the tract. He quotes from it. And among other things he said was, imagine if LGBTQ students felt accepted here for who they are.

And if I'm being really charitable, I could give an orthodox reading to that. I mean, the whole context wouldn't fit with that, but I'm a charitable guy. But then he continues, and for who they loved without judgment.