January 30, 2024 Show with M. D. Perkins on “A Response & Loving Rebuke to Alistair Begg”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30th day of January 2024.
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We basically arranged an emergency broadcast today. I had to reschedule somebody that was already scheduled to be my guest today because we wanted to bring to the public's attention something that just recently happened.
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We didn't want too much time to elapse. In fact, some people are already accusing me of rehashing old news, even though I think this just happened about a week ago or so.
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But we are going to be addressing some very unfortunate and dangerous statements by a globally renowned figure, much beloved both inside the
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Reform faith and outside. The figure of whom
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I speak is Alistair Begg. And he gave advice to a grandmother during a podcast to attend a so -called transgendered wedding of this woman's grandson.
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And the stipulation was that the young man know where the grandmother stood in regard to her view of this marriage not being a legitimate marriage and the actual behavior of her grandson with this so -called transgendered individual being sin, etc.
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And but he still recommended that the grandmother attend the wedding and purchase a gift for the, quote, quote, couple.
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And we are responding to that today. We my guest and I were both shocked, as were many, perhaps especially in the
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Reform community. But all of those who greatly love Alistair Begg. Well, I shouldn't say all of those who love
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Alistair Begg. There are many defending his statements, but many who love
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Alistair Begg were equally shocked by his amazingly bad advice and counsel and his dangerous advice and counsel.
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And we wanted to go over this subject today with a spirit of graciousness, with the motivation of love in hopes that not only
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Alistair Begg would come to repentance and openly recant and publicly recant his statements, but also that those who agree with him would recognize that this is very unbiblical and dangerous counsel and that they would repent of agreeing with Brother Begg and would never give this advice to anyone.
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But my guest today to conduct this interview is very appropriate.
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I actually couldn't think of a better person. His name is M .D. Perkins. He's been a guest on the program before.
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He is the author of Dangerous Affirmation, the Danger of Gay Christianity.
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And M .D. is also on staff at the American Family Association, whose radio network made the painful decision to remove
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Alistair Begg from their lineup, making my guest today even more appropriate. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, M .D.
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Perkins. Thank you, Chris. It's good to be with you. And before we move on in more detail with this situation, let's hear about the
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American Family Association. Sure. Yeah, the American Family Association is a pro -family ministry that began in 1977 under the inspiration of Reverend Donald Wildman, who was a
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Methodist pastor who was concerned about television and just the content material that was on there.
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And his activism in response to that issue and raising awareness about that grew into confronting the selling of pornography in the 1980s, the rise of the homosexual agenda in the 90s,
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Christian public activism in a lot of these different areas, as well as dealing with the marriage battles that were happening in the states in the late 90s, early 2000s.
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And so AFA's had their hands in quite a few different culture war battlefronts, you could say, over the years.
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And we were saddened by the recent loss of Brother Don. He went home to the
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Lord just a couple of weeks ago. But the ministry here is continuing on.
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I mean, it was started by one man, but the mission and the vision of AFA continues on through the leadership here and many of the things that have been set in place over the years, including the
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American Family Radio Network, which is a piece of what we do. Brother Don started that. And in 1991, after learning of some new regulations among the
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FCC that allowed for translator stations so that you could basically branch these together through satellite technology and create a network.
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And he took advantage of that opportunity while it was there and was able to create a network that, at its peak, probably had as many as 200 stations or so before the
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FCC kind of got in and reconfigured the regulations on that.
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But currently, I think we have about 168 stations nationwide.
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And we carry a lot of our own content. We create a lot of our own productions here in -house.
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But we do carry some additional programs that people would be familiar with.
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Dr. James Dobson recently let go of the Alistair Begg. I think that's a connection point to this, but other things like that.
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And if anybody wants more information about the American Family Association, go to afa .net,
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afa .net. And please pardon my speech as I am still struggling with Bell's palsy.
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So I may mispronounce things today. You may detect a lisp. But I can thank
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God that the Bell's palsy seems to be diminishing. So thank you all for your prayers.
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Well, Alistair Begg has been a modern -day hero of mine for many years.
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I can clearly remember first discovering who he was when the radio station that I worked for,
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WMCA 570 AM in New York City, where I served as an account executive for 15 years, before I had my own radio program.
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We would very often have what we called radio rallies.
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And that would mean when a new program launched on the station, we would very often invite the host of that program to New York City to speak at some church and introduce this person to our audience.
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And one such person was Alistair Begg. And I remember immediately when I was in attendance at this event being really extremely impressed by him.
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And I began to listen to his program regularly, interviewed him at least twice on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and loved every minute of those interviews.
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And I have biannual free pastor's luncheons, where I treat pastors to a free lunch and a guest speaker, and provide free books that are donated by Christian publishers all over the
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United States and the United Kingdom. And on several occasions gave away books written by Alistair Begg with no hesitation.
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But I was totally shocked when people began to contact me last week, asking me if I had heard about the comments of Pastor Begg.
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And when I did hear them, I was in a state of shock. Well, just to give you some background information, for those of you who are unfamiliar with Alistair Begg, it seems unlikely that somebody listening to my show would be unfamiliar with him, because he is a theologically reformed, world -renowned pastor, conference speaker, and radio host of the
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Truth for Life program. But he also is the senior pastor at Parkside Church near Cleveland, Ohio, and has been so since 1983.
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But he is one of the rare people who is unabashedly reformed in his understanding of the scriptures, a .k
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.a. Calvinistic, and yet has a very wide audience of people who hold him in extremely high esteem outside of the reformed faith, probably especially amongst
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Calvary Chapel congregations and radio and television networks and so on.
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Alistair is one of the very few people, along with Jason Lyle, the reformed
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Christian astrophysicist, that the Calvary Chapel folks give a pass on their
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Calvinism and openly and excitedly promote
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Alistair and feature him in their networks and so on.
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I don't know what has happened since these statements, if the Calvary Chapel networks have done anything, but he is, like I said, one of the few within reformed theology that seems to have a much broader audience of enthusiastic support than merely those who are reformed.
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But I'm going to play a clip of the things that started this whole controversy during a podcast that Alistair participated in, and here we go.
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...in another direction, and learning to say, but I have no basis upon which
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I could argue that I myself would not be where they are were it not for the amazing grace of God, were it not for his compassion towards me.
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And in very specific areas this comes across. I mean, you and I know that we field questions all the time that go along the lines of, my grandson is about to be married to a transgender person, and I don't know what to do about this, and I'm calling to ask you to tell me what to do, which is a huge responsibility.
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And in a conversation like that just a few days ago, and people may not like this answer, but I asked the grandmother, does your grandson understand your belief in Jesus?
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Yes. Does your grandson understand that your belief in Jesus makes it such that you can't countenance in any affirming way the choices that he has made in life?
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Yes. I said, well then okay, as long as he knows that, then I suggest that you do go to the ceremony, and I suggest that you buy them a gift.
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Oh, she said, what? She was caught off guard. I said, well here's the thing, your love for them may catch them off guard, but your absence will simply reinforce the fact that they said these people are, what
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I always thought, judgmental, critical, unprepared to countenance anything. And it is a fancy, it is a fine line, isn't it?
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It really is. And people need to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. But I think we're going to take that risk.
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We're going to have to take that risk a lot more if we want to build bridges into the hearts and lives of those who don't understand
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Jesus and don't understand that he is a king. Well, I think that's enough of that clip.
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And if you could, M .D., give us your initial reactions to everything that was just said.
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Yeah. Let me first just start with 1 Timothy chapter 5.
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Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers. And I just want to hold that in my mind as I'm, you know, addressing a man, like you said, who's deeply respected, a man that I've come to deeply admire and appreciate his teaching and his heart for Christ and the way that that's come through in his ministry over the years.
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And, you know, like you, I had the opportunity to interview him as well as part of a documentary film project we had called
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The God Who Speaks that AFA produced in 2018. So, yeah,
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I mean, Alistair Begg is somebody that I approached this tenderly in one sense, but also
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I couldn't help but feel that same knot in my stomach when
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I was hearing the reports and starting to hear what he actually said there, because that is not sound counsel as a pastor to a woman seeking to have confidence that she is making the right decision.
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You know, we can talk about kind of pastoral counsel and all of those kinds of things.
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But, you know, his statements, when I first heard them, I thought he knows exactly what he's saying.
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This is something that he has considered. He's measured. He is planning to say it, and he recognizes also, you know, he makes the comment that some people may not like the answer, you know, acknowledging that he realizes that what he's about to say will be controversial to some, perhaps many in his listening audience and even perhaps to the grandmother who was asking about it.
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So, you know, I hear that in the answer. I hear, you know, this false dichotomy that he talks about, that your love might catch them off guard, but your absence would only reinforce, you know, their feeling of isolation and bigotry and all of these kind of negative things that they've associated with the church.
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And, you know, I just, I would strongly disagree with that statement, that the only way that you show love in this situation is by being at this wedding.
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Now, I know that Pastor Begg has already walked back, not fully walked back his comments, but he tried to add some additional context and quite frankly, just convoluted things with his
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Sunday message that tried to speak more about this and kind of acted like there was, you know, some situations where he might say something different than he said to this woman, as if there's this, you know, array of various answers he might give.
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But when he gives this, he gives this answer as emblematic of how Christians should respond in this situation.
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So I would push back against his attempt to try and nuance this as somehow representative of a piece of pastoral counseling rather than representative, because he really does seem to place it as you can be on the side of Jesus or you can be on the side of the
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Pharisees. This is his later comments that he did this past Sunday in his sermon.
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And so he places it in those two categories, that you're being Pharisaical if you have a problem with his advice, but Jesus is the way of going to the wedding, bringing a gift, celebrating this to some degree, even though, you know, in your heart, you're kind of torn up about it.
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But as long as you made it, as long as you said that you were a Christian and that you are committed to following Jesus and this isn't a good lifestyle to pursue, then you're okay to follow this.
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And, you know, he hedges it with it's a fine line. What is so fine about what?
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You're going to have to expand that out, you know, Pastor, because the fine line here seems to be that you are, as a grandmother, as a family member, or as a friend, that you are endorsing these choices and this lifestyle and this commitment and this religious ceremony that is taking place.
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And, you know, that's just not how
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Christians should respond. I mean, I thought we had a better view of marriage than that. I thought we respected the sanctity of marriage more than that to lend credence.
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And there's a number of points of objections that critics have given. I'd like to work through those, you know, perhaps at some point in this time.
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But, you know, that's my initial, you know, just hearing the audio again and thinking through, you know, his response.
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I mean, I will say this. I don't think that Pastor Begg is coming from a point of deep theological error in the sense that he has embraced the affirming church or he is speaking, you know, trying to affirm that homosexuality is right and good.
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I mean, he's been very clear on his statements regarding that. He even had a very recent, I mean, within the past year,
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I feel like, series on Romans 1 that talked about, in very clear and helpful terms,
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I thought, the issues regarding homosexuality, which makes this all the more baffling, frankly, Chris, that he would say these things and take that good theology that seems to be clearly and carefully understood and then to apply it pastorally in this way, that just seems, it just seems to miss it.
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It just seems to act like you, as a
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Christian, you have to endorse this to some degree in order to show the person that you love them.
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And this is part of why Christians stood against the push for gay marriage, you know, in the 90s and 2000s.
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This is part of the warning, is that once you open up this door, you create a new category and then it creates all kinds of confusion and turmoil in the hearts and lives of people as Christians come to these issues and then they're faced with these kinds of questions that they wouldn't have been faced with, you know, 20 years ago.
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When did this actually happen? When did he say these things? I believe the podcast was actually back in September and then someone recognized that these things had happened and then it started to come around and find some circulation on social media last week.
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That's when I first heard about it. Middle of January, yeah. And it's just utterly remarkable because he is a very biblically literate person and theologically astute.
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And it seems to me, now I have not kept up with Alistair on everything that he has said or written over the years, but one of the things that I remembered clearly about him when
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I first heard him speak at that radio rally, back in, I believe it was the 1990s, might have been the early 2000s, and also having him on my show, is he struck me as a straight shooter.
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He struck me as someone who was not so overly concerned about people's feelings that he would water down and dilute whatever message he was presenting in order to appease them.
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In fact, I remember how impressed I was, and this may offend some folks listening who are
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Pentecostal or charismatic and I don't intend to offend you, but during that radio rally when
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I first encountered Alistair, there was a Q &A session and somebody asked what his views were on tongues.
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And Alistair didn't know who was in that room and he just spoke from the heart, from what he knew and believed about what the scriptures teach.
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And he very strongly denounced the modern -day tongues movement and he wasn't going to allow the hurt feelings of anybody in the audience to stop him from doing that.
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And even on my show, I can remember a couple of occasions. The first time
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I interviewed him, it was a live call -in show that I had conducted starting in 2005.
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My show was a live call -in show. Since relocating from New York to Pennsylvania, it's an email -in question program, but WNYG Radio and WGBB Radio in Babylon, we had live calls.
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And I remember him, unintentionally, I don't think he intended to insult callers, but he was very clear and firm in his answers to their questions that they did not like.
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So this is just something that seems to be out of character for him all around unless he has changed in his manner in a way that I didn't know.
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Are you aware of anything about him becoming more intentionally soft and kind and accommodating to people, regardless of what the message may be?
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No. In fact, that's part of what was so surprising about this. I mean, I alluded to hearing him speak about homosexuality just within the last 12 to 18 months, whenever that series was up on Truth For Life.
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And it was a two -part sermon about God giving them over. And it was,
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I thought, a very— I've listened to a lot of Christian leaders speak about homosexuality.
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I wrote the book Dangerous Affirmation, which deals with the threat of gay Christianity within the church and the little subtle inroads that have been made with language, with accommodations, and different ways that people try and present things in ways that doesn't step on certain people's toes, but also shows affinities to different group dynamics within the room.
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All very—oftentimes very subtle, very nuanced things that the average listener doesn't catch.
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And listening to him speak, I was really edified, actually, by the way that he treated the subject, the way that he brought in some of the scientific data on it and talked about causality, which is something that, quite frankly, many people within not just the
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Reform world, but within Southern Baptists, within other Wesleyan circles and different things, people don't want to talk about the causality behind homosexuality.
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But he was willing to address that and at least include that as a part of the conversation. So, you know,
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I wouldn't even put him in the Side B, revoice Preston Sprinkle kind of camp because he wasn't speaking in that way.
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He wasn't making any nods or allusions that would make me think, well, that kind of sounds like Side B thinking until this most recent thing.
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And that's—those are some of the things that I'm hearing. I'm not saying that he's given himself over to Side B ideology because there's other ways that he frames things that are very distinct from how
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Side B people would do it. But I think there's just this—
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I think a lot of Christians and a lot of Christian leaders are struck by just how hostile the climate is regarding sexuality and how marginalized
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Christians are and are increasingly becoming and speaking about this.
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And so a lot of people are tempted to find small ways where they wouldn't have felt comfortable talking about this or doing this, you know, two or three years ago.
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But now they feel a little more comfortable doing it because they feel like it's already a bit of a lost cause, so to speak.
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You know, presenting Christ and speaking about these things is— it almost feels like an effort that people aren't really going to listen.
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You've got to find a way to make the little inroad. And so you've got to do something uncomfortable before they'll be willing to hear something uncomfortable, that kind of thing.
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I think maybe that's at work here in kind of the pastoral thinking. But like I said,
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I mean that's— I believe that's dangerous, and it also presents a false way of viewing it as if the opportunity comes by attending the wedding.
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But is it not attending the wedding also creating an opportunity to share
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Christ and present a clear Christian witness on this? And doesn't that actually open up the conversation?
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Yes. In a very clear context where you aren't— where it's clear you're not in any way affirming.
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I mean everyone who's there at the wedding, they don't know the personal convictions that you hold. They don't see the inner life and the struggles and the conversations that have happened behind closed doors.
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They just see you there clapping, watching, smiling, being happy with the thing that's taking place there as two people commit to perpetual abomination together, you know.
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And there's really no—there's no outlet for life there.
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You know, that's only a dead -end street. That's only something that is going to create greater and greater condemnation on them spiritually even as they find greater and greater affirmation within the eyes of the world and the eyes of friends and family and loved ones.
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And yet you standing there distinctly as a Christian on the outside, that's the clear witness for Christ.
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And we—obviously, you know, the challenging part of that is that we don't get to control how people see that.
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You know, we don't get to control how somebody responds to our efforts either to show love or to show, you know, a commitment to a
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Christian cause. We don't control that. I mean you even being there, there's no guarantee that this person actually sees that as loving.
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You know, and his updated message, you know, that he did on Sunday, he talked about the woman, the grandmother showing up with a
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Bible. And that's the gift that she's giving. You know, she's giving a Bible to her grandson or granddaughter.
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You know, how is that going to be received? You know, I mean we can extrapolate all kinds of scenarios there.
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But really, I mean, you have to have a clear commitment to biblical truth.
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You have to be willing to take a hard stand sometimes, even if it puts you in opposition to friends and family members.
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And you have to be willing to endure ridicule and scorn that comes along with that.
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And you have to be willing to have the conversation and the boldness to speak a word for Christ in that circumstance.
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Because, you know, I would wager that in most situations, you know, when he says, does your grandchild understand that you are committed to Jesus?
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And she says yes. Well, you know, in what way? You know, how clear have you been on that?
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Is it just like they've seen a stitched
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Bible verse on the door of the house? You know, or have you really engaged in deep spiritual conversations, trying to point your children and grandchildren toward Christ, praying for them?
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You know, you're committed in a local church. All of those things are clear and evident. So, of course, you know, there's the expectation that you would be along – you would be opposed to whatever they would present.
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But then there is that additional step of – See, when we get these questions from friends and family members, they are always – it's a test.
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There's always a test element that's part of it, whether that's purely spiritual or whether it's the individual trying to test our commitment and see really where is this person.
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But if our love for them has been clear up to this point and our commitment to Christ has been clear to this point, then you can say
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I'm not going to that gay wedding. I'm not going to promote this. I'm not going to offer my participation in this in a way that would appear to everybody else as congratulatory because I'm going to trust that I've built enough in the relationship there to withstand something like this.
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And I trust the God who has laid this on my heart to say and do these things, that he is able to sustain this relationship through whatever the difficulty of what this person's response might be.
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And open additional opportunities for the gospel to be clearly brought out, to be considered.
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Because the bottom line of it is, Chris, this grandson in this scenario, what is the sin that in his mind he knows he doesn't want to deal with when it comes to the claims of Christ and what it means to be a follower?
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It's got to be all of this identity stuff, the transgenderism or the homosexuality, whatever the case may be.
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Those things are first and foremost in his mind as he's thinking about how he will respond to a
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Christian and what his participation in church is going to be. And so for Christians to kind of back out and cower and act like, well, we're not going to make a big deal about that or we're not even going to address it, is to actually go against the thing that is the roadblock in the way.
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And that just seems like it's negligent of what Christ would call us to do and how we should bear a clear witness in this world for him.
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Amen. And we have to go to our first commercial break. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is
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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
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Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
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Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could readily understand this topic evoking questions that are indeed personal and private.
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And we'd love to hear from you whether or not you agree with my guest.
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You can disagree with him vehemently, and we would love to hear from you nonetheless. So don't go away.
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We'll be right back after these messages. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a
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So go to royaldiadem .com today. Mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with MB Perkins, and we are talking about the controversy surrounding
41:57
Alistair Begg and his recommendation during a podcast to a grandmother to attend her grandson's transgendered wedding or wedding to a so -called transgendered person in order to demonstrate to that person her love for him and to dismantle stereotypes of Christians being hateful and bigoted.
42:25
And, of course, he did include the caveat that the grandmother makes certain that her position, her biblical position against this behavior was made clear.
42:38
But it seems to me, MD, that at the heart of this issue is the question, what is truly an act of Christian love?
42:52
There seems to be—I mean, I was actually stunned by the avalanche of Christians who were upset by our interview today when
43:03
I was promoting it in social media because they are of this mindset that kindness, politeness, and affirmation are always acts of Christian love, even when you're facing something that is an abomination, a, dare
43:23
I say, even satanic. And it's mind -boggling because I don't think that these people who are reacting this way— in fact,
43:31
I don't even think Pastor Begg— if you were to examine everything he said and did,
43:37
I don't think that you would find anybody who is a professing Christian, especially if they believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, to logically and consistently maintain this mindset in all areas.
43:50
There's definitely going to be areas where they're inconsistent. But what do you think about that comment about the very definition of what is an act of love,
43:59
Christian love? It seems to be at the very heart of this. Yeah, I think that's a good point to bring up.
44:07
When we talk about Christian love, I mean, we typically begin by talking about our love for others.
44:15
But what is Christian love, first of all, entails love for Christ. And so loving
44:23
Christ, what does it mean if you love Christ? It means you keep his commandments. It means that you are aware of what
44:29
God is like, who he is, what he's commanded, and that you want to live consistently with that.
44:35
So then that's the first order, the first table of the commandments is love for God.
44:41
And then from that comes our love for others, which includes our neighbor, which includes our fellow church member, which includes the lost and dying world out there that we're trying to reach for Christ, or just show compassion to, show compassionate mercy toward.
44:56
But all of that has to be rooted in a clarity regarding what our first love is.
45:03
And our first love has to be front and center. It has to be central.
45:09
It has to be foundational. And for us to compromise the love for Christ by our acts of somehow kindness or affirmation or politeness or whatever, that's the problem here.
45:36
There's a misdefinition, I guess, at work here or misdiagnosis of what the real problem is, that is the problem that the person hasn't.
45:48
The person here in this scenario, the grandson, sees his grandmother as bigoted, and so she has to respond to that because as a
45:59
Christian she doesn't want to be seen as a bigot. Well, like I said before, you can't help how someone receives what you have said or what you've done.
46:07
Now, there may be calls to say that the grandmother has not presented a clear Christian witness, or perhaps she's said things that undermine that in different ways.
46:16
Perhaps she has spoken in ways that seem to present a different picture, or things that she even regrets or things that the
46:25
Lord needs to draw her to repent of, even herself.
46:31
But speaking on these issues, I decided to go back and check in on the
46:40
Westminster Confession of Faith on this and the Westminster Larger Catechism. There's those great definitions of the
46:48
Ten Commandments within there. There's the definition, actually, of marriage within the
46:55
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 24, that mentions all the things that we would recognize.
47:00
You know, marriage was ordained for the mutual help of husband and wife, for the increase of mankind with legitimate issue, and of the church with a holy seed, and for the preventing of uncleanness.
47:11
And it's that last piece along with, I mean, obviously everything else there, but it's that last piece, which is something that can't happen within a homosexual marriage.
47:22
You can't prevent uncleanness within a homosexual marriage by issuing the marriage.
47:29
So there's an element there. So what about our witness? Well, Westminster Larger Catechism No.
47:36
145, what sins are forbidden by the Ninth Commandment, you know, the commandment of bearing false witness?
47:42
You know, a whole list of things are listed, but wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause is listed in that list, along with calling evil good and good evil.
47:54
So, you know, I think within that wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, obviously a court case is clearly in mind, but, you know, at the end of the day,
48:08
I mean, a wedding, at least in terms of the state as well as in terms of our religion,
48:14
I mean, this is pleading for a cause. You know, you are pleading that these people would be married, that this is what needs to happen and that you are happy to participate in this.
48:27
So you doing that is bearing false witness, which the Lord will not bless. And so there's no reason to expect that your witness within that scenario of calling evil good is something that would be honored by God and open up that door of opportunity.
48:45
And I mean, we are also warned about, you know, boldly confronting and defeating truth, which is what's happening there in the wedding, but also overbearing the truth, which means to be arrogantly domineering.
48:57
And so that's what I was alluding to earlier. You know, like maybe the grandmother had not in some scenario, you know, maybe you haven't been as as kind or as loving in your personal responses with the person.
49:11
But, you know, you can't we still have to boldly confront and defeat lies.
49:17
And and this is a situation where even appearing there is, in essence, pleading for an evil cause.
49:27
And so I think that is something where reformed Christians in particular, you know, if you if even if you're a reformed
49:34
Baptist and you hold to, you know, a slight different variation of the Westminster Confession, you obviously recognize, you know, the the biblical wisdom involved in the
49:43
Westminster Confession of Faith and the larger catechism and so on. So I think that's a that's a piece of this that needs to be upheld.
49:50
And another thing I would say, Chris, that tends to go unrecognized by Christians is just the spiritual battleground that homosexuality and transgenderism are in our culture today.
50:02
These are not areas where we just can kind of agree to disagree and everything will continue on fine.
50:12
I mean, how do you how do you answer the reason behind the intense emotional conflict over this issue?
50:21
It's spiritually motivated. There is there's a spiritual enemy that wants to steal, kill and destroy those who are locked in bondage to these ideologies and identities and behaviors and attractions and say that you are this way.
50:40
You cannot change and everyone else is wrong for thinking that you're wrong. And that is that is the spiritual root of this intense animus.
50:51
And so Christians do have to be careful not to be driven to to hatred or frustration or just like just giving up on this whole battle just because it feels like the culture is completely against you.
51:05
But at the same time, we have to recognize the spiritual nature of the battle. And so if you can see ground spiritually, you don't necessarily get that back.
51:15
And that's not something that just comes back to you when you say, oh, I'm sorry, you know, like maybe
51:22
I shouldn't have done that. I mean, you've already conceded the ground and it takes months, years, perhaps decades in order to restore what was lost and given up in an instant.
51:33
And so Christians have to be increasingly mindful of the spiritual nature of these these debates that this isn't just political ideologies kind of hashing it out.
51:45
And like it's some kind of vying for power by the Christian right versus the left or something like this.
51:52
Now, this is spiritual warfare and Christians need to be mindful of that. And another thing is there is obviously a clear contradiction in Alistair Begg's counsel to this grandmother, because he's saying, you know, are you making it clear to your grandson that you do not countenance this behavior, this union, etc.?
52:17
Well, how much more vividly does it make it appear that you are countenancing it by joining in a celebration and giving a gift to the people involved in this?
52:33
I mean, yeah, and this was a good that's a great point. I mean, that and that was brought out by an article by Pastor Kelly Williams.
52:40
I'm not familiar with him, but I was sent a pathos blog by him. And he he brings up the countenance question.
52:46
You know, the definition, if someone for countenance, if someone will not countenance something, they do not agree with it and will not allow it to happen.
52:56
And then he comments as Christians, when we engage a formal ceremony with our faces turned toward the altar of the ceremony, we are giving credence and approval to the ceremony we are attending.
53:06
And anything beyond this is a representation of approval. So, I mean, that's, you know, you're right.
53:13
I mean, he's he's contradicting himself there, which I don't think he can help but do, because that's that's what these kinds of bridge building efforts do between between the
53:24
Christian church and the quote unquote gay or LGBT community. There have been many such efforts over the years.
53:33
First, well, so historically, they go back to the late 90s and a website called
53:39
Bridges Across the Divide. By the way, could you could you pick up on Bridges Across the Divide when we return from our midway break?
53:46
Oh, sure. Yeah. And just don't forget where you left off there. And please be patient with us, folks. This is the middle break, which is always a little longer, but we'll be right back after these messages.
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Before I return to my guest MD Perkins as we continue to discuss the controversy surrounding
01:08:43
Alistair Begg and his recommendation to a grandmother to attend her grandson's so -called wedding to a transgendered person, we have some important announcements to make.
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That's also the email address where you could send in a question to MD Perkins.
01:10:54
And I'm wondering if MD is with us right now. I'm hearing that.
01:11:00
Yes, sir. Okay. I'm hearing that strange noise like somebody is trying to join a
01:11:06
Zoom meeting or something. I'm not sure where that's coming from.
01:11:12
But you were before the break about to let our listeners know something about building bridges or something, an organization or a movement that involves an evangelical approach to reaching those involved in homosexual sin.
01:11:32
Yes. Yes. So this we call it bridge building efforts. It's just a way of describing the particular approach that some people have tried to take in regards to that.
01:11:44
They see the divide between Christianity and homosexuality, between the church and the
01:11:50
LGBT community, so to speak. And they want to find a way like how can these be a little more compatible, a little more listening to one another and those kinds of things.
01:12:01
And so this kind of effort, you know, I mean, very recently you had things like the
01:12:07
Unconditional Conference that took place at Andy Stanley's church, where he brought in speakers who are gay affirming to try and talk to parents about how do you build bridges with your gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender child.
01:12:24
And then but going back, there's a whole history to these things, and they've always failed.
01:12:29
They've always failed to produce both the cohesion that they promise as well as what they end up doing is creating confusion and creating a lot of bitterness that ends up rising up.
01:12:46
You had the Bridges Across the Divide, which was a website started actually by a gay rights activist in 1996 that was trying to do this, to make inroads into the church in order to try and weaken the church's position on this so that they would be more accommodating of homosexuality and to begin to accommodate certain political objectives of the gay agenda.
01:13:09
And then that whole idea gave birth to the Side B language that we use because guys like Wesley Hill and Justin Lee.
01:13:19
Justin Lee is a gay affirming Christian author, you know, quote unquote Christian author.
01:13:26
But he was part of these early dialogues. Ron Belgal was a part of this.
01:13:33
He was a formidable part of spiritual friendship and that website. So this this website kind of gave rise to a lot of the language that became
01:13:42
Revoice. And so it's interesting that it has political goals in mind by someone who is not a
01:13:48
Christian, not even professing Christian, not even a progressive or liberal Christian, just somebody who was who was trying to co -opt the church into weakening their position on this.
01:14:01
And then that gave rise to things like Andrew Maron and His Love is an Orientation thing that came through.
01:14:07
I believe Zondervan ended up producing either a video series or the book itself related to that.
01:14:13
And that was in around 2009. But these things have always ended with the people who were involved leaving with some kind of bitterness and frustration over how it never materialized the way that they were supposed to.
01:14:26
And they're still blaming the church for this. And so when people try and say, but this is just, you know, in a small way, this is just a way that this grandmother can build a bridge with her grandchild.
01:14:40
That's not how it works. You know, these these things have never really come to fruition because you don't recognize the spiritual battleground there.
01:14:49
And to the point we were making earlier, you're not really properly defining Christian love because a piece of love, at least now it's defined in First Corinthians 13, is that love doesn't rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.
01:15:02
And so how can Christians possibly hold on to the truth while alongside a group that is wanting to rejoice at wrongdoing and present that and celebrate that and take pride in that and reduce the shame that's associated with it?
01:15:17
It's impossible. It's going to fail every time. All it does is compromise the church's witness and ultimately not come to anything fruitful except to increase confusion and compromise within the church.
01:15:31
Let me go to a couple of listener questions, at least, before we return to the main points that you want to make.
01:15:39
And let's see, we have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio. Cindy says,
01:15:45
Hello, Mr. Perkins and Chris. I love Alistair Begg as much as anyone and have listened to him daily seven days a week since I became familiar with him around five years ago.
01:15:56
Although I actually agree with some of the points made on his Sunday video regarding Phariseeism, I don't think they apply in this case and don't agree with the advice given to the grandmother.
01:16:10
I have emailed his ministry three times in tears, pleading that he reconsider his position and pray daily for him.
01:16:21
One thing I sense in listening to him for the last five years is his intense love for God and his desire for the lost to come to Christ.
01:16:30
He genuinely loves the lost. I'm not defending his stance in any way, but it is bothersome to see on social media that because of this comment, he is now considered a heretic.
01:16:43
As you've already stated, he is extremely sound in his theology and a great blessing to the church.
01:16:49
I do not agree with the premise that he has become soft on his stance against homosexuality, transgenderism or gay marriage.
01:16:56
I don't believe he is caving in in his beliefs, but rather greatly desiring to show a particular segment of society that the
01:17:04
Christian community does not hate them. However misplaced his methodology may be.
01:17:10
His poor judgment is not due to a slide in Christian morals, but a desire to show love, albeit not in the way most would consider as biblically sound.
01:17:24
At what point would you consider this type of advice to be heretical or consider the person giving such advice a heretic?
01:17:35
Well, heresy is a specific category of error. My issues with Pastor Begg on this point is that this is wrong
01:17:48
Christian counsel and that it is dangerous and in error.
01:17:56
In terms of heresy, that's a category that we typically reserve theologically when we're speaking about core doctrinal issues of the
01:18:10
Christian faith. This can certainly lead someone to take on heretical views, but I don't think it's an expression of a heretical view in itself.
01:18:24
If that makes sense. Well, thank you, Cindy, and you've won a copy of M .D.
01:18:31
Perkins' book, Dangerous Affirmation. Please make sure that we receive your full mailing address and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com
01:18:40
will ship that out to you. We have an anonymous listener who says.
01:18:48
Let's see here, actually, he broke it up into two emails. Should a congregation be made aware that one of their elders daughter got married to another woman?
01:19:03
The daughter is an adult and not living at home. Did you hear that?
01:19:12
Yes, I heard it. So so the question is basically calling out the daughter as being in this lesbian relationship because she's the daughter of an elder.
01:19:25
I mean, that would I feel like that's a question regarding church discipline and a case in which, you know, is is she a member of the church?
01:19:39
Has she received any correspondence from the session? If if yes, then then maybe there's a need to to bring it up because it hasn't been dealt with in the way that it should.
01:19:52
If it's just a matter of this girl has kind of gone her own path. She's walked away from the
01:19:57
Lord. The elder, I guess part of the listener question may be regarding is the elder disqualified automatically because he has a son or a daughter who is who is homosexual?
01:20:10
I mean, I would not say that the elder is automatically disqualified because of that. But it would the the issue of bringing the matter up before the church would really be regarding is she is she held as a member of the church and have the steps of proper church discipline taken place to to respond to where she is currently spiritually?
01:20:35
And then if so, then then there that would be the opportunity to bring up some issue to the wider body.
01:20:41
But other than that, it's really just a personal matter, the family that you would want to to pray through and find ways to to help show spiritual support and love to to those who are involved.
01:20:54
And hopefully, I mean, if if they're hopefully the elder is bothered and grieved by this situation, if not, then that's then that would be a different matter altogether.
01:21:05
If the elder is supportive of this and is basically starting to capitulate on LGBT type issues, then that would be a different concern to bring forward.
01:21:16
Well, thank you, Anonymous. And please give me your full name and mailing address because CVBBS .com
01:21:24
will also mail you a free copy of MD Perkins book, Dangerous Affirmation.
01:21:30
Now, one of the things that has been a common protest in regard to us even having this discussion is that too many
01:21:48
Christians, perhaps even especially reformed ones like you and I. Are living in some kind of a reformed cloister and have removed ourselves from the the world, and we're not out there in the world amongst the overtly rebellious people who are anti Christ, to put it in a term.
01:22:21
And therefore, we are ineffective in our witness for Christ in our evangelism efforts in the world.
01:22:30
So therefore, Alistair is giving wonderful advice, in their opinion, because this grandmother is being sent into an area during an event where there are going to be probably nothing but non
01:22:49
Christians there or predominantly non Christians. And therefore, she's going to be a light in a dark place.
01:22:58
And that this is something that you and I and people who would agree with us that going to a wedding like this is wrong.
01:23:06
We are guilty of basically being in retreat mode. We're not being used of God to bring the gospel because we're in our safe place, if you will.
01:23:17
How do you how do you respond to that kind of thinking? That just sounds like baloney to me.
01:23:23
I mean, the reality is, like, you don't know. You don't know what we do or who we talk to or who we're connected with or who we interact with.
01:23:34
And the reality is, I mean, the church,
01:23:40
I mean, people have different levels of engagement with the world. And some people, you know, are in a secular workplace among in a very progressive company that has a lot of policies and things that really restrict what they can say.
01:23:57
And they have to be careful about how they how they talk and how they present themselves and how they how they walk out their
01:24:03
Christian life in the workplace. And others are in, you know, better situations for them, spiritually speaking, where, you know,
01:24:12
I mean, like myself, I work at a Christian ministry. I'm surrounded by believers. I mean, it's a broadly evangelical base.
01:24:19
So, I mean, I'm connected with people who are more charismatic, people who are Wesleyan, people who are reformed, people who are
01:24:25
Southern Baptists. I mean, there's a whole mix of people who work at AFA and are connected with AFA and support
01:24:31
AFA. But, I mean, do I live in a bubble? Maybe to some degree, and maybe to some degree all
01:24:39
Christians do to some measure. And that's part of the issue that causes such fear over this topic is, you know, every body kind of has their theoretical response to how things ought to operate.
01:24:53
But the reality is, I mean, we have to we have to find ways to speak Christ within the world that we live in.
01:25:01
And so, I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling in response to this question, but that's it.
01:25:07
Some Christians are called to be salt and light. That's the bottom line.
01:25:14
And whether you are in a context that puts you around believers or people who just,
01:25:20
I mean, there's a lot of professing believers that you might interact with. But there's also people who profess faith who don't live out their
01:25:27
Christian walk and don't seem to be genuinely born again. And so you've got an opportunity to present
01:25:32
Christ there and to witness there as well. I just, I reject the notion that somehow there are easier places to serve the
01:25:40
Lord than others is basically what I'm trying to say. That wherever you're called to, there is going to be a level of spiritual persecution and battle that you are going to have to take up, whether that's going against, you know, kind of some of the religious traditions and upbringing that people have been ensconced around or whether it's going into a very hostile secular environment.
01:26:02
I mean, obviously, one of those is more comfortable than the other on a day -to -day basis. But that comfort can lull you to sleep and keep you from actually being a clear witness for Christ where you are.
01:26:12
So, I mean, we all have to be on guard and we all have to be clear about what the mission and the message is.
01:26:18
And if we lose track of that, then we're not doing justice to what Christ has called us to.
01:26:24
Yes. And again, this goes back to what is the message you are sending by being in a particular place during a particular event?
01:26:39
You know, it doesn't sound like Alistair was recommending that this grandma go to a wedding and start to raise her voice proclaiming the gospel and telling people to repent or to walk around handing out tracts or, you know, that in,
01:26:58
I think, Alistair's mind, according to what he said, that that's going to further perpetuate stereotypes, isn't it?
01:27:05
And I also don't think he is saying that he would want to officiate the gay wedding either. Right.
01:27:10
And so this person who will remain nameless, who was really bombarding me with accusations that I don't want to go to the places where the lost are, and that's the only way they're going to hear the gospel if we go to those places.
01:27:28
I said, well, where do you draw the line? Do you go to orgies? Do you go to cross burnings?
01:27:35
Do you volunteer Planned Parenthood so you'll be surrounded by lost people?
01:27:41
You know, I mean, it's… Well, there's… Go ahead. There's a difference between standing outside of Planned Parenthood… Right.
01:27:50
…and trying to offer counsel and help and driving your daughter to the abortion clinic. Right. And essentially, in this scenario at the gay wedding, that's what you're doing.
01:28:00
You're driving your daughter to the abortion clinic. It's that level of affirmation.
01:28:05
And even to go a step further and say, you know, I'll take you to the abortion clinic and then we'll go shopping and get lunch afterwards.
01:28:13
You know, I mean, how can you not see that as a level of affirmation for the choice that is being made?
01:28:21
And at some level, you as a Christian, I mean, how would your conscience be silent to you if you chose to go forward with that?
01:28:30
Now, I know some people have already made their choice and they're trying to justify it in their head. I mean, I know people who have gone to even not even necessarily gay weddings, but they've gone to the weddings of an unbeliever.
01:28:42
And within that ceremony, there were some things that were really made them uncomfortable as a member of the wedding party.
01:28:50
And they're still kind of thinking like, I don't know, should I have gone? You know, and they're kind of questioning it.
01:28:56
Did I make an inroad for the gospel or did I discredit my Christian witness by going? And, you know,
01:29:03
I don't think you have to continually ask yourself your question if you make a clear distinction at the front end that I'm not going to go to this, but I'm going to find other ways to speak and to build a relationship and to show that I love and care for this person.
01:29:19
Whether they receive it or not, that's up to them and between them and the Lord. OK, before you go on to any more answers to protests that you specifically want to address.
01:29:31
I want to read a listener question. Chicky in Pflugerville.
01:29:36
I'm assuming that's how to pronounce that. P -F -L -U -G -E -R -ville, Texas. Chicky wants to know.
01:29:45
And in fact, I think I brought this very thing up to you before we went on the air in private conversation.
01:29:51
Chicky asked, does it appear to you that Christians are intentionally being much more soft in their approach to those involved in homosexual sin than they are to those who are involved in heterosexual sin?
01:30:10
Yes. Yeah, I mean, that at least in terms of the public talking points, that is that seems to be more and more where you have to soft pedal because you could ask the same question of would you go to an adulteress, the wedding of a man who had left his wife and pursued this relationship and he's getting remarried to his mistress and you get invited to the wedding.
01:30:37
And are you going to uphold your Christian witness or is it is it Pharisaism if you don't do that?
01:30:43
Because that's the dichotomy that the Alistair Begg has given us is there's the path of Jesus, which goes to this and gets a gift.
01:30:51
Or there's a way of the Pharisee that says, no, I'm not going to do that because that muddies the water of what
01:30:56
I'm trying to do and the clarity of what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I mean, there's an element in which people have
01:31:06
Christians have become very afraid to say anything that would be that would be seen as controversial or really push against push against the thinking on this regarding homosexuality.
01:31:23
Whereas when it comes to to to heterosexual sin, if you want to call it that, you know, just sexual promiscuity and morality, all those other things,
01:31:32
I think other people would say, well, there's an element in which Christians haven't dealt with those things as much as they should have.
01:31:39
They should be much more careful in speaking against pornography or much more open about that.
01:31:45
And that's a fair criticism as well. But to say that doesn't mean that homosexuality is now justified or a strong response against homosexuality is somehow forbidden just because Christians at different points have been negligent to address sin within their own midst or within their own families or within their own congregations regarding pornography, adultery, fornication and so on and so forth.
01:32:13
Well, Chicky, make sure you give us your full mailing address in Pflugerville, Texas, because you've won a free copy of Dangerous Affirmation.
01:32:21
Thanks to our generous friends at the American Family Association and also thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:32:28
We'll ship it out to you. We have Jasper in Hicksville, Long Island, New York.
01:32:36
And he says, it seems that Alistair Begg's rhetoric here is defying and contradicting his own reformed theology when it comes to the nature of humans.
01:32:49
Yeah, that's it. I brought that up as well. That's an excellent point, because it is going back to the
01:32:58
Arminian understanding of man being sick rather than spiritually dead before he's regenerate.
01:33:06
And that if we can somehow, you know, appeal to the emotions of somebody and make sure that we never offend them or get them upset, that they're somehow going to come around and say, you know, this person loves me so much.
01:33:25
I got to give this Christianity a second hearing. But this is not a biblical approach to the lost man dead in his sins, is it?
01:33:39
No, I don't think it is. I mean, I don't think it seems to recognize the reality of the condition or the need for the cure and the call to Christian faithfulness in the way that the
01:33:51
Lord blesses that. You know, there's simple acts of faithfulness that we can live out, that the
01:33:56
Lord in his sovereign care over all things has chosen and ordained to use to build up his church, convert the lost and to disciple those who belong to him.
01:34:10
And if we're going to people, I don't know why.
01:34:16
I guess maybe it's this inherent pragmatism. We've got a lot of pragmatic thinking in America, you know, and so we get very clever.
01:34:23
And so we try and find new ways to approach the problem when really the call is to just be faithful where you're called and to do the things the
01:34:33
Bible's commanded, not to try and overthink. You know, if I do X, Y, Z, then maybe
01:34:39
I'll get X, Y, Z results. Well, you know, God has called us to be faithful and to leave the success up to him.
01:34:47
And that's a quote that AFA as a ministry lives by because that was something that Brother Don, our founder, said all the time.
01:34:54
And I mean, he was a Methodist pastor, Armenian as they come. But that is something that I think all
01:35:00
Christians should be able to recognize, that God's providential care over these things. He's ordained the ends, we would say, but he's also ordained the means.
01:35:07
And if you aren't going to take up those means and you can't expect to accomplish those ends, but at the same time, you just can't kind of sit and wait for those ends to happen without taking up the means yourself.
01:35:19
And so those things work together, you know, God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in that way.
01:35:26
But it does seem to miss, I guess, how we should be thinking about these things theologically.
01:35:37
You know, it reminds me of a story that Jesus brought up that I was addressing very recently in Iron Sherpa Zion radio of the rich man and Lazarus.
01:35:52
And when the rich man was in hell, he was begging
01:35:58
Abraham to raise Lazarus from the dead so that he would go and warn his brothers about their eternal destiny awaiting them in torment if they did not repent.
01:36:18
And Abraham said, if they do not hear
01:36:26
Moses and the prophets, neither will they hear someone who rises from the dead.
01:36:36
And it's as if, you know, if somebody were to say, well, what if the rich man said, well, you know, send somebody to the gay wedding?
01:36:50
Oh, no, that's all that's entirely different. Sure. They may listen to you then. You know what
01:36:55
I'm saying? It's defying the biblical understanding of man's nature.
01:37:03
Why are we to believe that if the rich man's brothers would ignore one raised from the dead, why should we believe that somebody is going to be turned to God because we went to their homosexual affirming wedding?
01:37:23
Yeah. Why would God bless it with his power when you've so clearly compromised?
01:37:33
And then to your deeper point of, you know, God is ordaining this and there's a resistance there.
01:37:41
So, yeah, I'm with you. If you could now address some of the other main complaints or disagreements or protests to your way of thinking in response to Alistair that you have had to grapple with.
01:38:00
Well, I think one of the main things that people have tried to say, at least I've seen them in the comments on the news articles connected with this.
01:38:08
And I assume AFA has probably received a number of different responses. I'm not privy to all of those.
01:38:14
But one of those is just the matter of conscience, you know, that, well, you know, why can't a
01:38:22
Christian feel compelled to go do this? Isn't there a level of Christian liberty here?
01:38:28
You know, isn't this a meat sacrifice to idol situation where, you know, some can partake in good conscience and others cannot?
01:38:35
But my response to that would be, you know, are you eating the meat that's been sacrificed to the idols or are you going to the ceremony where the idol was invoked in order to sacrifice this thing?
01:38:52
That's kind of the distinction here. I mean, we're talking about there are matters that are up for Christian liberty, including some of our responses and the ways that we engage with the world.
01:39:07
But as a Christian, I mean, you're always sensitive to have I actually said and done what
01:39:14
I should? Did I do it in the right way? Did I handle the situation properly? And you're trying to discern how can
01:39:22
I handle this better in the future? How can I how can I grow in my interaction here? And I don't it's not just a matter of conscience.
01:39:33
I mean, Robert Gagnon, I don't know if you saw that he wrote a very extensive course.
01:39:39
His main platform is not a blog, but it's his Facebook post. And so these essay linked
01:39:44
Facebook posts that he writes sometimes. But he wrote one regarding the
01:39:49
Alistair Begg situation. One of the things that he brings up, rightly so, in First Corinthians five, there's the self -professed
01:39:56
Christian man who's in an incestuous relationship with a stepmother.
01:40:02
So the question is, you know, if we are to compare apples to apples here, should the grandmother of this go to the son's incestuous wedding and bring a gift in order to show her support to hopefully make an inroad for the gospel?
01:40:21
And this person in First Corinthians five is even a professing Christian, is a member of the church. And the world looks at it and is shocked by it.
01:40:27
And I think we can all recognize on its face that this is not something that you should do.
01:40:34
It's just when it comes to homosexuality, we've so been softened by the onslaught of the world and the depictions in media and the political arguments and growing weary over culture war kind of language and action.
01:40:51
That a lot of Christians have felt like, well, maybe it's not as bad really as my parents told me or as people feared.
01:41:02
You know, I met this person and they seem so nice. You know, I was taught the gay people were mean and scary when really you probably weren't taught that.
01:41:12
You were just that was how you interpreted it at that point in time.
01:41:17
But my point is that the Christian church has been deeply softened on this on this issue.
01:41:25
And so we don't we don't have that same level of obvious revulsion and distancing that we would have if we talk about that incestuous wedding concept or a bestial wedding, someone marrying an animal or something.
01:41:41
I mean, you would look at that as like, well, obviously I'm not going to go do that because that's so clearly against God and his word is a desecration of what the marriage vows are supposed to be.
01:41:51
It's a mockery of what God intended. It leads people astray and it affirms things that are that are abominable on God's side.
01:41:57
So why would I go and do that? Why would I think that I could do that and be able to have a clear
01:42:02
Christian witness on the other side of it? But when it comes to homosexuality, we just don't see it that clearly anymore.
01:42:09
Well, we have to go to our final break. But if you have a question, send it in now because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:42:15
Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. We'll be right back. Chris Arnzen here, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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01:47:43
Mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have a question from Garrison in Peconic, New York.
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And Garrison says, In reading the social media comments, primarily on Facebook, responding to the promotion of today's show,
01:48:00
I have seen a number of people trying to make the point that if we don't go to transgendered or LBGTQ marriages, we shouldn't go to other marriages that may have a question mark next to them, like should we go to a
01:48:17
Muslim wedding, a Mormon wedding, a Jehovah's Witness wedding, or an atheist wedding?
01:48:24
Yeah, I've seen that, too. But the fact of the matter is, and I'm sure you would agree, MD, those weddings are real marriages, even if they are not performed in the name of Christ.
01:48:34
God binds one man and one woman to marriage, even if they were not married in the name of Christ in a
01:48:43
Christian church. It could be in a mosque, a temple, a justice of the peace, you know, wherever.
01:48:52
They're still marriages, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the issue there.
01:48:58
The male -female component of the marriage is still intact. And, you know, if that couple is to become
01:49:05
Christian, then they would not need to dissolve the union that they have, because now they would just be sanctifying their home and they would just be growing in grace and knowledge and all of those things.
01:49:20
So it was like I mentioned before with the Westminster Confession of Faith definition of marriage, the preventing of uncleanness, you know, when a man and another man are committing together, they're basically committing to perpetually engage in acts of uncleanness together and committing to that long term.
01:49:41
You know, there is no expectation that that's going to cease. So there's nothing sanctifiable about that union.
01:49:49
Whereas in the case of someone coming from another religion, the marriage itself is still valid because it is still recognized by God as an actual union the way that he intended.
01:50:01
And we'll take one more listener question from Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.
01:50:07
Arnie says, when you refuse the invitation to a wedding like this grandson was participating in to a transgendered person, do you have any counsel of what to say so that you would not automatically cut off any kind of relationship or communication with the person that you hope to eventually reach with the gospel?
01:50:30
Well, it would certainly be built upon what hopefully you've already said to this point.
01:50:37
But, you know, there's a kind and cordial way to refuse the invitation and to say why and to state your
01:50:51
Christian convictions. Like I was saying earlier, you know, this is an opportunity to bear witness about what you truly believe on this in a way that actually puts some skin in the game, so to speak, and says that I'm willing to risk your opinion of me, the
01:51:08
Christian saying this to the unbeliever, I'm willing to risk your opinion of me in order to maintain my commitment to Christ my
01:51:18
Savior. And I hope that you will in some way see this, even if you don't see it at this point in time.
01:51:27
Hopefully you will recognize the joy and the comfort that I have in Christ.
01:51:33
I hope that you're able to understand that and to see that my commitment here is actually consistent.
01:51:40
You know, we did a movie, AFA released a movie in 2020 called In His Image.
01:51:47
And you can go to inhisimage .movie if you want to watch that for free, or you can also find it on YouTube, which is also available for free.
01:51:54
But it's a movie about homosexuality and transgenderism and the biblical response. And one of the stories, the testimonies within it is this girl named
01:52:04
Laura Perry and her mom. And Laura Perry grew up in the church and, you know, felt like her mom was overbearing and legalistic and kind of always doing these things.
01:52:13
But one of the things when Laura started to embrace a transgender identity and start to identify as a man and take on a man's name and start to take hormones and eventually had surgery and some things to alter her body.
01:52:28
One of the things that she mentioned, reflecting back on it after she was a Christian, was that her mom never capitulated.
01:52:35
Her mom never called her by her chosen, her new chosen name. She always called her
01:52:41
Laura. She didn't call her Jake, which was her preferred male name. And she didn't use her preferred pronouns.
01:52:48
She got around it sometimes just by calling her honey, you know, something as innocent and sweet as that.
01:52:54
But the point that Laura wanted to make was that I always knew where my mom stood. And I always realized that when
01:53:02
I got tired of the lies, I didn't go to the people who had lied to me. I went to those who had always told me the truth.
01:53:07
And that was my mom. Amen. And so, you know, that's just an amazing testimony of what a clear
01:53:14
Christian witness can look like. And so I'd recommend that movie to anyone. If you want to know more about that story, you want to hear some of the testimonies of people who've come out of these things, go watch
01:53:24
In His Image. Inhisimage .movie is the website to go to. Now, also think about all of these young people that we are seeing in the media, only in conservative media, who were involved at the blessing of their parents and the counsel of their physicians, were getting surgery and hormonal treatments to change their gender, so -called.
01:53:50
Of course, we know nobody can change their gender. But these young people who have regrets and they are angry that their parents and their doctors did this to them or allowed them to do this to themselves.
01:54:05
And just think about the grandson when his life may become a living hell, a nightmare, married to this transgender person.
01:54:16
He's going to be wondering, why, Grandma, didn't you try to stop me? Why did you even come to this wedding and bless it the way you did?
01:54:23
I mean, isn't that something to consider as an act of love, to try your very best to persuade somebody to not go through with something as satanic as this?
01:54:35
And one of the ways that you do that is you say, I love you with every fiber of my being.
01:54:41
But I care more about your eternal soul than your feelings. And I love
01:54:46
God more than you. And I'm not going to attend this. This has nothing to do with hate and bigotry.
01:54:54
I love you more than I can describe. And that's why I'm not going. I mean, isn't that something to consider?
01:55:01
Yeah. And you think about the massive mission field that that is, these people who are basically exiles of the sexual revolution, refugees of the sexual revolution who are just, they're hurt, they're betrayed, they're confused.
01:55:20
They know that these things didn't work, and they don't really have anyone else that they can trust. I mean, that's an amazing, you want to talk about a mission field that's ripe for the harvest.
01:55:31
Go to those who've come out of, who have been lied to and realized that these things didn't fulfill the hopes and dreams that they promised.
01:55:42
And also something that I would say that as you speak to people, also trust that the
01:55:47
Lord can preserve this relationship, that even if there is anger and resentment on the part of the other person, even if there is what seems to be maybe a permanent break in that relationship, continue to pray, continue to seek the
01:56:04
Lord's face on this, because he can actually restore that relationship. I have seen that and heard of those stories so many times.
01:56:12
You know, honestly, Chris, part of what's frustrating about Alistair's response on this whole thing is that every time
01:56:20
I go and speak on this topic of sexuality, I always encounter at least one or two parents of children who have gone out and are living this way.
01:56:32
And basically what they're just wanting to hear is that I'm not crazy, I'm not a bigot, I'm not insensitive and unloving by holding to the truth of the scripture.
01:56:42
They just, they need that confidence reaffirmed. And to jeopardize, to go against that by speaking in such a way that really counteracts where their conscience is on this issue, like the grandmother who's surprised that Alistair would say this, that's just a dereliction of duty as a minister of God.
01:57:02
And I just, I'm really, that really hurts that that was the response, because these parents are really hurting.
01:57:12
And they're trying to find ways, most of them blame themselves for things that have happened to their children and the choices that they've made.
01:57:20
And they are trying to find a way to maintain a relationship. And there are many rocky years, but there's oftentimes, if parents are willing to humble themselves and be consistent and also maintain a clear spiritual witness, they can restore those relationships with their kids.
01:57:36
These aren't irreparable, but they're also not easy to walk through because there's that lingering tension in the background.
01:57:46
I mean, I know a family whose son came out as gay and they had some really rocky years, but the son has actually moved to be closer to his parents because that's where he feels love and affection, not from his gay partner, but from his parents and his extended family who are
01:58:01
Christians. And so that's who he wants to be close to. So, I mean, if your love is genuine and the
01:58:07
Bible says, let your love be genuine, it will come through in these things. We don't have to overthink everything that we write and hope that we get it exactly perfect, because we do serve a sovereign
01:58:18
God who overcomes our weakness and our limitations. Well, it has been a joy, even in the midst of a sad reason for having you on.
01:58:28
But it's been a joy to have you back on because you are such an exquisite and superb guest.
01:58:34
MD, and I look forward to your return to the show. I want to remind our listeners of the website for the
01:58:43
American Family Association, AFA .net, AFA .net.
01:58:48
Please pray for that organization, that they do not suffer great financial loss for removing
01:58:54
Alistair Begg's program, Truth for Life, from their lineup. Please pray for Alistair Begg to come to true repentance and to recant fully the horrible, unbiblical, ungodly counsel that he gave.
01:59:09
And we look forward to hearing good news, God willing, in the near future about that.
01:59:15
I want to remind you also to look up MD Perkins' book at AFA .net,
01:59:21
which is Dangerous Affirmation, the Danger of Gay Christianity. And you can look up the interview
01:59:26
I did with MD on that very subject, and I hope that you are blessed by that.
01:59:33
And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater