Quick Report on Australia/New Zealand then Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:35

Oh, you're going to need your earpiece in to talk to the callers.

00:56

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. That's a very nice Windows 10 background I see up there.

01:01

That's probably... Oh, hey, there we go. Hey, it's going to be a nice, relaxed, quiet day for me anyways.

01:11

Open phones, 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

01:18

Notice I have to look up at the number. It's been so long since I actually said it last. Bunch of things.

01:26

Please don't freak out, but we moved something in the background. I moved the board regeneration light.

01:33

Yeah, it's gone. Just had two... Evidently, there are too many people in our audience who are obsessive compulsive,

01:42

OCD, and they just go... And they can't listen to the show because of that, so...

01:50

Hopefully, the lava lamp is actually more calming and stuff, and people won't freak out about that, so...

01:59

I miss it. What? Oh, Rich says he doesn't miss it.

02:05

He was very happy to see it. It's actually just right over there. I suppose I could plug it in someplace, and then

02:11

I could see it. But then you all couldn't see it. So I might do that. I might put it over there, just so I have a nice little...

02:17

I could put it facing me. I just realized I could put it over here, and then when you do that silly... That'll stop you from doing that silly wide shot.

02:25

Yeah. I'm gonna put it over there, so when you do the wide shot, you see it, and then you won't do the wide shot anymore. So, that'll take care of that.

02:32

Can you hear me? See, I don't have this in yet. You take it out, you put it in, you take it out, you put it in. And so, apparently, my mic...

02:38

This way, if I don't have this in, I don't have to listen to him. Anyway, I was told... Someone in Sydney...

02:46

Was it Sydney or Brisbane? I don't know. It was an 18 -day trip, and it all melds together after a while.

02:51

But someone told me that I need to be much nicer to Rich. Yeah, it's not like he'd listen anyway.

02:58

And I'm just like... Nice to Rich? I mean,

03:04

I am the very essence of kindness to Rich. What are you talking about? And it says,

03:10

Nah, you're hard on him. Hard on... I just didn't...

03:15

I could not even begin to understand what... See, if I put it right down, like with the straw man here, then you won't do that shot anymore, because...

03:25

Oh, there it is. It's actually still there. See? What he doesn't realize is that I can zoom in. See, it was right about here, on the other shot right there.

03:34

But he's not listening to me right now. 877 -753 -3341. Yes, it is...

03:41

It is Election Day. I gotta tell you my story before I tell you about the trip, and then we start taking your phone calls.

03:50

And let me see here. Oh, we actually have people online. Good. Anyway, real quick. My confidence...

03:58

My confidence in the American electoral system was not increased by my experience today.

04:08

I can walk to the polling place. I don't think it's more than 200 yards.

04:15

So I grabbed my driver's license, because I've never been asked for anything else. And...

04:21

You know, walked on down there. And it's probably, what, about 87 today? Close to 90 in the sun, which in Arizona is almost jacket weather.

04:31

And so I get down there, and there's only two people in front of me. And there's two people checking people in.

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So there's only one person. So I'm second person in line. So I'm listening to all this. The one on the left is being told that the system says you've already voted.

04:50

And the one on the right is talking about how they've moved recently, and they're being told this isn't where they're supposed to be voting anyways, but they'll give them a ballot anyway.

05:00

So I'm sort of going, okay, all right. So I walk up to this lady, and I hand her my driver's license.

05:09

She scans it and says, voter registration card? I don't have my voter registration card.

05:17

So there's this dude, who sort of seems to be in charge, and he says, well, you can still fill it out, but you have to mail it in.

05:26

So I just take my driver's license back, and say, okay, have a good day. I start walking out. I'm actually outside the door.

05:32

I say, sir, sir. And I turn around. Yeah. You don't want to vote? No, thanks. And I just leave.

05:40

So I walk home, and I wasn't exactly certain where my voter ID card was anyways, but I had a hint, a feeling.

05:50

So I looked, found it. I'm like, it's only 200 yards.

05:56

I mean, well, okay, 200 yards. 400 yards. Big deal. So I walk back down, and the dude isn't there anymore.

06:04

Same two people checking people in, and I end up with a guy this time. There was a guy and a gal. And so again, both people in front of me, same story as before.

06:15

Well, you know, you're not supposed to be at this one, but you can get a provisional ballot. And I'm sitting there going, this is weird.

06:23

And so I go up, and I hand the guy my driver's license and my voter

06:30

ID card. He immediately hands the voter ID card back to me and says, I don't need it. And he scans my thing.

06:37

He says, sign there. And I sign it. He hands me the ballot, and I go, wait a minute. I said, why did she ask me for my voter

06:47

ID card, and you don't ask me for my voter ID card? Oh, we don't need the voter ID. Well, then why did she?

06:53

She's right there. I mean, she's this. I could have patted her head like this. Doesn't say a word.

06:59

So some other lady says, well, I tried to stop you. I guess what she was saying was she was wrong to ask that.

07:06

So then why did the dude in charge say that I'd have to mail my ballot in? It was a mess.

07:12

I mean, it was, I mean, I have this much confidence in the electoral system anyways.

07:18

I really do. And it went down to there today because everything

07:25

I saw was like, so I primarily voted.

07:31

I wrote a name in for the presidential thing, who's actually an actual candidate, just didn't make

07:39

Arizona's ballot, but actual candidate for one of the third parties that was closest

07:46

I could come. But there are two ballot initiatives here in Arizona, and one of them is the

07:54

Let's All Become Potheads initiative. And so I felt it was worth 400 yards of walking to say, no, not that it's going to make any difference, but I still said no.

08:08

And so anyway, so there was my voting experience. Guy tried to give me a sticker and I just shook my head.

08:16

And he said, but it's a sticker. And I said, it's why we vote.

08:30

And it was just sort of like, yeah, yeah. That sort of sums it all up. I just saw something on Facebook of Phil Johnson with his voting sticker in the middle of his forehead and said,

08:44

I felt unclean afterwards. This is the closest ever coming to taking the mark of the beast. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

08:52

Anyway, so we get back. I got back yesterday and I am just so thankful.

09:02

It was looking like I wasn't going to get back till today. Because we did a conference, an

09:13

Axe 29 conference. First time I've done anything with Axe 29. The guys were great. Thanks, guys. I've had people say, so what do you think about Axe 29?

09:23

I'm like, well, you know, Driscoll was involved and he's out. And I guess

09:29

Matt Chandler is sort of in charge now or something. I don't know. The conference we did was very well attended.

09:43

We had really good speakers, aside from me. We had

09:48

Jim Renahan. Now, Jim Renahan is sort of like the grand poobah of Reformed Baptists.

09:56

Well, of a number of Reformed. Even Reformed Baptists have their divisions.

10:02

There's some historical divisions. Then there's some more modern divisions. I try to just float over top of that.

10:13

Basically, you want to get along with me? You want me to get along with you? Don't demand that I dislike or disfellowship people you don't like or disfellowship.

10:25

As long as you're just focused upon what I teach, I'm going to do the best job

10:30

I can in apologetics for you. If you've got me doing a debate, I'm going to give my best.

10:35

I'm going to teach on the Trinity. You know what I believe. I've got enough books out that it's not much of a mystery. As long as you're willing to go there with me and not force me into whatever political stuff you're involved in, we're going to get along great.

10:56

You've got Jim Ranahan and his bow ties. I did wear a bow tie on Sunday, but I let him have the bow tie stuff on the first day.

11:09

Jim's a good brother, but his color palette in his bow ties is just a little limited.

11:16

Just a little. You've got Jim Ranahan, you've got me, and you've got

11:24

Joe Thorne. Joe Thorne I had never met before. As this trip started getting closer,

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I started looking at stuff. I was looking at speakers. I friended him on Facebook and was looking at things going, this is going to be interesting.

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This is going to be interesting. Well, we met and just hit it off.

11:49

Just immediately. Clicked as quick as anything.

11:57

What was really fun, he has his style, Jim has his style, I have mine, and the people really liked the mixture of styles.

12:06

None of us are really even close to the others in how we present stuff.

12:12

If one guy doesn't turn the light on for you, the other guys might. That's a good thing.

12:18

Then we had a lot of panel discussions. Basically, after each one of us spoke, how many panel discussions did we have?

12:28

I've lost track. I think we had three. Maybe two. Anyway, we had panels. They really worked well.

12:37

We fed off of each other and played off of each other. The time just went flying by.

12:44

Some panel discussions are not that way. Some panel discussions are just, can we get this done, please?

12:51

Will someone speak up? I always end up answering three -quarters of the questions because everybody else is just like...

13:00

Dead air is not a good thing. Anyway, panel discussions went well. I was just really impressed with the leaders down there and the guys down there.

13:09

We had a lot of dinners together and get -togethers. The conversations were... They're just really passionate guys and just humble and sacrificial and focused on the glory of Christ.

13:24

It was just neat. They were just great folks. I think these are the folks that some people,

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I won't mention their names, think are going to destroy Calvinism somehow. I don't think so.

13:36

I had a great time with them. Good folks. I did the whole trip.

13:41

I started off in Brisbane. I really want to thank all the folks. I've come back feeling pretty good.

13:48

I mean, Jeff, did you see Jeff on Facebook? What truck hit me?

13:55

Yeah, I understand. Today is the day

14:00

I'm supposed to be going, what truck hit me? Instead, I don't know if any of you saw, but I posted a little link.

14:06

I did a 100 -kilometer bike ride in Zwift. Zwift is the online thing. There was a challenge they have.

14:13

The challenge, if you do 100 kilometers in this challenge, you might get an all -expenses -paid trip to Zwift headquarters to distribute toys to kids.

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You know what the toy is? Big wheel. You know what I did 100 kilometers on today?

14:30

A big wheel. The whole time, now I'm obviously on my bike, I'm on my trainer, just as normal, but on the screen, here

14:37

I am on this big old big wheel for 100 kilometers amongst other bikes and stuff like that and riding a big wheel up mountains and everything else.

14:47

It was fun. That's what I did today. How about you, Jeff? How old are you again?

14:52

Never mind. I'm sorry. I'm being mean. Seriously, one of the reasons I think is the guys in Brisbane, Craig Ireland, and all the guys at both

15:05

Grace Bible and Hope Reform Baptist Church, Jeff and I sort of switched places. I'd speak at one while he was speaking at the other and then we'd switch.

15:12

Jeff did set an all -time record on the first Sunday night we were there. He preached one hour and 38 minutes.

15:20

I did not do that and will not attempt to break that record. I've often said, people, you know,

15:28

I always get up and if I forgot, I'll ask people, so, when do you normally get done?

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And they all say the same thing, just let the spirit lead, brother, whenever you get finished.

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And I go, yeah, and when do you normally get done? Because I know better. You just don't do that.

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You just, no. You get done when the folks expect you to get done. So, anyway, we had fun there.

15:58

One of the guys lent me his bike to ride. They got me a hotel that had a rower in it.

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And the hotel happened to be right on the waterfront along the river in Brisbane. So, you can run anywhere.

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So, I had a rower, I could run and then I got a bike. And so,

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I fell behind in riding a little bit, but I did almost 280k of riding between Brisbane and Sydney.

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And I exceeded my running and my way at 70 ,000 meters on the rower.

16:35

So, it was beautiful. You saw me posting, if you follow me on Facebook, I was posting pictures from downtown

16:41

Brisbane. It's just gorgeous. It really is beautiful in that area. And we climbed

16:47

Mount Coot -tha. And to make a long story short, I'm really thankful for the guys that put out the extra effort both there and in Sydney.

16:56

Because the guys in Sydney rented me a bike. And Stephen, one of the elders there in Stanmore, we rode down to Wollongong.

17:06

Which, if you look on a map, it's right at 100k down the coast. And I have never ridden in as bad a traffic as I rode in on this trip.

17:19

Both in Brisbane, coming back from a 70k ride we did.

17:24

We hit rush hour. And I was playing bumper cars with buses. It was... I normally don't do that.

17:30

I normally don't ride roads like that. We have wider roads in Arizona. And then in Sydney, getting out of Sydney to get down to Wollongong.

17:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I had forgotten my mirror. And besides that, everything's on the wrong side of the road.

17:47

Which is really freaky because I'm not really sure how to take turns and stuff. And where to be looking for cars and stuff.

17:52

it was, you know, it was... Made me nervous.

17:59

But I still got some great rides in. Got to ride down underneath the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Then over the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Next to the

18:06

Opera House in Sydney. And Wollongong was beautiful. I got some beautiful pictures down there. Make a long story short.

18:12

Thanks, guys. Because you all put out the extra effort for the bikes.

18:18

In Sydney, I was able to go to Sydney University and row and run and stuff like that. Made all the difference health wise.

18:24

Because I'm feeling great. And I spent 18 days overseas.

18:30

And I think what allowed me to avoid jet lag was as soon as I got to Brisbane. I was running.

18:37

I was rowing. And it just it forced my clock to adjust by doing the workouts.

18:43

And it made all the difference in the world. So thank you very much. Because it used to be I'd go for a two week trip.

18:50

Then I'd be down for at least a week. Almost two weeks. And I'd get back from sickness. That's almost a month out of your life.

18:56

You know, it really has to be factored into how often you go places. So really appreciate your ministry to me.

19:04

And I think that assisted in my ministry to you. Because, hey, a speaker who feels good just got a 7 ,000 meter row in and is probably going to be a little bit more with it than someone who's coughing and hacking and taking drugs to try to stop their sinus infection or something like that.

19:24

So very appreciative for all of that. And the people putting up with my less than globally wide taste in food.

19:37

So the few stops at the Golden Arches, which are ubiquitous. They're everywhere. So, which you should appreciate.

19:44

Yes, I know there are phones there. But one last thing and then we'll go to the phones. I want to thank there's so many people

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I need to thank. Because so many people down there were so kind. Like I said, extremely encouraging.

20:02

I hope you all saw the pictures of Angus James. The cutest little red haired boy

20:07

I think I've ever seen. So, he's wearing a shirt that says

20:13

I am named after Dr. James White. They didn't have any classes in seminary that prepared you for what you're supposed to say.

20:25

When mom's wearing a Theology Matters t -shirt, dad's got a shirt on that said these are things

20:31

I used to believe before I met Jeff Durbin and James White and he's got all these things. So many people coming up to us and just talking about how this program this program has been just a lifeline for them.

20:48

Just incredibly important to them. It's humbling, encouraging, absolutely amazing and I just pray that we'll be able to continue doing it for a long time in the future.

21:02

That may be changing as a result of what's going on in our nation today and by the way,

21:08

I thought I was going to get away from the election. Ha! I'd say people down there were people

21:15

I met I was talking with a fellow just a few nights ago in Wellington that clearly knows much more about the political situation in our nation than the vast majority of people voting today.

21:28

I mean big screen TVs in Brisbane outside the city hall with the morning programs on.

21:37

You know what they're talking about? Donald Trump. Now, Australian television way to the left.

21:44

ABC Australian broadcasting way left. Hillary can do no wrong. Trump is probably an alien android, something like that.

21:54

But man, they were talking about nothing but our election and they had advertisements.

22:00

Advertisements. Election Wednesday because they're a day ahead. So, they're going wall to wall with election coverage today and I'll bet you 99 % of the people in this audience cannot name the prime ministers of either

22:16

New Zealand or Australia. I can't. Sorry. But these folks know that what happens here is extremely important.

22:24

The sad thing is I think unless I get run over by a truck, I'm going to live long enough to see when they won't need to worry about that nearly as much anymore.

22:32

While I was over there, I bet you didn't even make coverage over here. Did you hear? I'll ask you. The Philippines have reoriented their economic stance and treaties and left dealing with the

22:46

United States and joined up with China. And their statement from their president was the

22:51

U .S. has lost. China has won. Did you hear that? Yeah. You're not going to hear it in the States.

22:57

But you heard it over there. You heard it over there. These people ain't stupid. They know what's going on over here.

23:03

They see the diminishing impact of this nation. And I'm going to tell you right now, it is because of the cultural collapse.

23:11

Moral, ethical, cultural collapse. So, anyway, last week we were scheduled to have a debate with Abdullah Kunda at Stanmore there in Sydney.

23:24

Stanmore Reformed Baptist Church. And Abdullah missed his flight. Abdullah, why'd you miss your flight?

23:32

And I was really bummed. I'm just like, and so David, David Old tells me about it.

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We go over this little pub -type place, have fish and chips while we're trying to figure out what we're going to do.

23:46

And, you know, we get, we get to the church and we were on the phone with him and he says, well, we can try doing it by Skype.

23:59

And the guys at Stanmore have never done anything like that. But they just jumped to it.

24:05

I mean, they just, they just, and we made it work. Now, it wasn't as useful as it could have been.

24:12

There's no way. I, I caught about 60 % of his opening statement.

24:18

But what was going on, we figured out was, he didn't have headphones on. So the microphone was catching the stuff coming back and kept dropping out.

24:27

And so, no matter what we do, unless someone, unless Abdullah recorded on his end, which

24:34

I don't think he did. If he did, maybe we can rescue it. Because if we had his audio, but I don't think he did.

24:42

So, it was tough because I'm having to ask him questions. Did you say? Did I hear you say?

24:48

And of course, it's hard for the audience to follow his argument when half of what he's, a third of what he's saying is dropping out and stuff.

24:54

And it was tough. It was tough. Once he put the headphones on, then it, it worked pretty well.

25:00

I was surprised that the cross -examination, we really, we, the one thing

25:06

I will say is, as with the previous debate, we got into the real meat of the issue.

25:13

And that, that's what makes it, it'll still be useful, just not as useful as it could have been. So my thanks to Abdullah for, for doing the

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Skype thing, the guys at Stanmore for making it work and still looking forward to getting an opportunity to do more of that type of stuff with, with Abdullah because it, again, was very respectful.

25:31

And there's a cool, I have one cool picture of Abdullah before the, before the audience came in and he goes, hey, look, and we look up on the screen and he's put a bow tie on.

25:41

He says, this is just for James, you know? And so we had a, we had a good, we had a good time there.

25:47

Okay. All right. I said open phones and everybody's sitting there going, why aren't you going to open phones? So let's get going here and let's talk with Micah.

25:57

Hi, Micah. Hey, James. How are you? Doing pretty good. Thank you for opening up the phone and calling and taking the risk on election day.

26:06

Yeah. Well, right, right now, everyone's just sitting around yammering and repeating the same things over and over anyways.

26:13

Yeah. So this really doesn't mean much. Anyway, thank you for all your work. I'm a relatively new listener, and so I appreciate your previous lesson on soluscriptura, and when you go back to those foundational things, it's very helpful to keep doing that.

26:27

Yeah, definitely. Listen, I've been dealing with some people at Church of Christ, the

26:34

Campbellite kind. Right. And I'm finding that Reformed theology is the only consistent way to handle their doctrines.

26:44

Oh, yeah. Which is incredible. And I'm finding that their argument is always, whenever I go to Romans 5,

26:52

Federal Headship, or I go to Ephesians 1 and 2, the argument is always, oh, Paul is talking about this is a plan of salvation, and so God is graciously giving us a plan, and now it's up to you to fulfill the plan by believing and being baptized and obeying, et cetera, et cetera.

27:10

So monergism is obviously the most consistent way to handle that. Right. But from their perspective, obviously

27:18

Acts 2 .38 is the center point of the entire Bible. Right. And the lens through which everything else must be viewed, and it can be very difficult to break through that.

27:32

Right. So on that issue, and then on another issue, that issue, and then the, whenever I address

27:40

Acts 2 .38 and address the Greek word ais, and how it can be translated, and how you can understand that verse, and then immediately following that,

27:51

Peter says, this is a promise to all those who are called. Yeah. Whenever I address that, specifically, they always go, well, you're twisting

28:00

Scripture. I'm sorry, you're what? I'm twisting Scripture. Just read it on the face.

28:05

This is what it says. That he baptized for the remission of sin, and they'll always hold me back to that.

28:14

So that's one issue. The second issue that always throws me off is their sort of cultic stance on denomination.

28:22

They always take me around to 1615 and say, okay, here's the churches of Christ for you, this is the original church.

28:30

I'll ask them, well, Paul commanded you to kiss for a holy kiss. Do you do that? I'm jokingly saying that to say you guys are obviously not like the original church.

28:44

Well, they think they are. They think they are. I've never met a

28:49

Campbellite that had read a word of the early church fathers, so personally, it's a fundamentalist form of works righteousness based on fulfilling baptism and so on and so forth.

29:04

And yeah, it's very difficult to break through because unless you can somehow inculcate a desire to listen to all of Scripture and not just portions of Scripture and to follow entire themes throughout the entirety of the text of the

29:23

Bible, you're not going to get anywhere with someone like that.

29:28

I mean, you know, it's not a major area of my interest. We have thought about doing a debate with this one guy a long time ago, but it sort of fell apart.

29:38

Because, I mean, those type of Church of Christ folks will do four -night debates just on Acts 238. I don't know what in the world you could say for four nights about a single text of Scripture, but that's sort of how they do things.

29:49

But we did, I've told the story a number of times of a Church of Christ lady who came into our chat channel a number of years ago, and we talked with her about John 6.

30:06

And she would go away, we'd answer her questions, and she would go away, and then she would come back with answers that she had gotten first from her elders and then from stuff that she was reading and things like that.

30:24

And she just kept coming back and kept coming back, and maybe this is just sort of encouragement for you, but it took a number of months, but eventually she got it.

30:37

And it cost her friends and position and everything else, but she's

30:44

Reformed today, and it was just simply the consistent testimony of Scripture and not being able to, you know, she realized that she couldn't just run off, keep running off to Acts 2.

30:57

And what you might do, this is sort of useful along those lines, John 6 obviously is before Acts 2, and Peter was listening to that.

31:06

And there can't be a conflict between the two. And so John 6 is just so powerful and so consistent, and as long as you really know what's going on there, you can just immediately identify when someone drives off the rails trying to get away from what it's saying.

31:24

But that's what Jesus taught before Peter said what he said in Acts chapter 2. So was

31:31

Peter contradicting Jesus? Peter had listened to these words. There has to be a consistency. So she was convinced that, hey, if it's

31:37

Scripture, then I need to believe it, and she did, and voila. We saw the fruit of it.

31:44

But that obviously requires the work of the Spirit. All right.

31:50

Well, thank you for taking my call. It's sort of frustrating. These guys, I grew up with these guys in my hometown, and as I've grown older,

32:01

I've wanted to interact with them. The more I've learned, it's frustrating. Yeah, well, don't be—

32:08

I understand frustration because you want someone to see, but at the same time, if you have the opportunity of speaking

32:17

God's truth, you've got to leave it to Him with the results and not find that to be a frustrating experience.

32:26

All right. All right. Thanks, Micah. Thank you very much. All right. God bless. Bye -bye. 877 -753 -3341.

32:36

Yeah. So, Allen in Atlanta. Hey, Dr.

32:43

White. Hey, guess who's sitting right next to me right now? Al Gore?

32:49

Close. I'm a lot more handsome than Al Gore. Well, if you had called in and said

32:57

Bo was calling in, you would have been the first caller. Well, that's because Rich always puts me last, even if I call first.

33:08

Well, that's true. That's by my instructions. But if I had known that Bo was online, then we would have gone straight to you.

33:17

There wouldn't have been no hesitation, nothing like that, because...

33:23

Well, thank you, James. I appreciate that. Yeah, well... I don't appreciate it. So, hey, as soon as you said in channel,

33:29

I was like, I don't even let Red call in. So I'm like, well, I'm going to call in and I'm going to extend you an invitation to call in to the live

33:36

Regular Reform Guys show tonight at 730. Regular Reform Guys. Never heard of it. There's a lot of stuff out there that, you know, there's a lot of podcasts and things like that.

33:48

So, Bo, how you doing, bro? I'm doing well. I miss you. I'm doing well. I miss you, man. Everybody needs to know that one of the two voices that you're hearing, if you've...

34:01

And I've told folks this before. If I was looking at some pictures from...

34:07

Well, one of the videos I normally show in my Muslim presentation is of me and Shabir Ali at Biola University doing a cross -examination.

34:16

And I use it as an illustration of Muslims attacking the veracity of the New Testament and stuff. And I was chuckled because the camera angle was just wide enough that right down front, you see this big guy and on the back of his red

34:29

T -shirt, it says security. And that was Bo.

34:34

And it was Bo and this other guy whose name

34:40

I won't mention on the air in the funny version that we have. But Jair.

34:46

Well, let's call him Jair. How's that? That arranged the debate with Shabir Ali at Biola, which started all the rest of the

34:55

Islamic debates. And there was resistance to that. There were people who wanted to have it shut down.

35:02

It wasn't easy to get done, but they got it done. So if you've benefited from the

35:07

Muslim debates, then Bo here. Now, Alan, on the other hand, if you've ever watched the

35:14

John Dominic Crossan debate and you notice when the lights start going down, that was

35:20

Alan. So there's the two of them. There you go. Right there. There you go. And now we're working together.

35:26

Isn't that great? I think it is wonderful. The Lord is merciful to us and forgiving.

35:33

While you were gone on your trip, and that was a great rundown of your trip, by the way, something amazing happened here in the

35:43

States. Yeah. The Cubs won the World Series, man!

35:48

Yes. You know what? They even showed, when

35:54

I was having breakfast one morning in Brisbane, the TV was playing the World Series.

36:00

So yes. Though there wasn't nearly as much excitement as rugby or things like that, but there was a little bit of interest, and it was primarily for the

36:10

Cubs because it had been 108 years and stuff like that. So, yeah. So, Alan...

36:17

I did have a question for you. Okay. Are you...

36:22

You've made it very public which way the people that you were not going to vote for in this election...

36:29

Which were named Hillary Rodham Clinton and Donald J. Trump. Yes. Right. I was listening to Mueller recently, and he said something.

36:40

I think you listened to it as well. It was on the briefing a few weeks ago. I think it was right before you left. And it sounded like he was differentiating between those who would vote for Trump over against those who were...

36:56

Those who would vote for Trump as a way to stop Hillary and then those who were defending

37:02

Trump and trying to defend his character. I was curious. Do you have that same...

37:07

Would you hold that same distinction? Well, I've made it clear. If you can hold your nose, chug some

37:14

Pepto -Bismol, all the rest of the things you'd have to do to pull that lover for Trump or draw the...

37:23

For us here in Arizona, it's draw a line between the end of an arrow and the head of an arrow.

37:29

Anyway, if you are convinced... If you're willing to stand behind that, depending on what's going to happen in the future, then great.

37:39

I have no problem with that. But yeah, I see a huge difference between someone who is just so fearful of the obviously anti -Christian, anti -liberty, anti -freedom agenda of the socialist,

37:57

Marxist, totalitarian Hillary Clinton that no matter what

38:03

Donald J. Trump has done, that they're willing to say he can't be that bad. Now, I consider that the

38:10

Las Vegas vote because I don't see any reason to believe anything that Donald Trump says that he's going to do.

38:18

I don't believe he's truthful. He has no character. Anybody who can brag about how many married women he's slept with and not repent of that and not even understand the need for it is obviously not someone

38:32

I think is fit for anything. But there you go. At least from their perspective, at least he's not

38:40

Clinton. So I get that. I understand all the arguments about Supreme Court. I personally think that's like donning a wetsuit and going down and patching the hull of the

38:50

Titanic. But if that's where you are, great. That's completely different than the people who foisted this man upon us in the first place.

38:59

That's a different... You know, people making excuses and promoting him as someone who's

39:06

God's vessel. Okay, that vessel needs to sink too. But I do make a...

39:13

I see a clear distinction between the two and recognize that there are going to be some people that, you know,

39:20

I vote for a third -party candidate and it's a wasted vote. Well, that's the best

39:26

I could do. That's... At least I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and go from there.

39:37

All right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for taking my call. Thank you, Alan, for calling in.

39:42

And hey, Beau, dude, it's great to hear from you. I really shouldn't do things like that because I do like Alan and I appreciate

39:51

Alan, you know, calling in every once in a while. But is Alan still there?

39:58

What did you do? Mute him? Oh, unmute him. That's not nice. Why are you muting him? Oh, there they are.

40:04

There they are. Okay. So I was just trying to be nice. I was just trying to be nice there and Rich muted you.

40:10

So anyway. Thanks a lot, Rich. All right, guys. I got to get some other folks. So we'll talk to you later.

40:16

All right. See you then. Bye. See you. Bye. Crazy guys. Crazy guys. Okay. Graham in Columbus.

40:23

Hi, Graham. Hello, sir. How are you doing today? Well, I hope your question isn't too tough, because, you know,

40:30

I am... It is the day after a very, very long trip, but we'll do our best for you.

40:37

I've made similar trips to Southeast Asia like that before, so I know what you're going through, but...

40:42

Yeah, you know that the day afterwards is sort of like, where am I? What time is it? Why is the sun up?

40:49

Right. Well, I've been listening to you for about, I'd say, a year and a half, maybe a little bit more, and I tell you, you're just a tremendous blessing, and your ministry is a huge blessing, and all the work that you and Rich put in,

41:04

I am literally... I mean, God has used you in so many different ways, and so... Oh, thank you.

41:09

I'm really grateful for the opportunity to speak with you briefly, and, you know, just finished reading one of your books recently, and, you know, just real, real help.

41:19

Oh, good. Excellent. You know, kind of a quick question, you know, I mean, I have a Jehovah's Witness friend that I've been talking to a lot over the last year and a half or so, and, you know, one of the things that has come up recently in discussion that I...

41:36

I'm just not always sure how to handle. I mean, I know how I view it, but I don't know exactly what to say to him is just that, you know, they have this concept of increasing light, you know, which to me is essentially like, well, it's just you're changing doctrines or changing teachings, but,

41:52

I mean, do you have any thoughts on a good way to approach that? You know, because to me,

41:59

I mean, like, I read in one of, like, one of their earliest books, you know, that, you know, okay, well,

42:06

Adam didn't have any idea that Noah's flood was going to happen. Well, yeah, of course, you know, there's some increasing light there,

42:13

I guess, you know, but, you know, when I look at it, it seems like, okay, well, you're looking back, you know, you're looking here and saying, well, we didn't know it then, and now we're here.

42:22

Right. Any thoughts on how to approach that? Well, on a just really practical level,

42:29

I think as long as Jehovah's Witness is satisfied with what they're experiencing in the society, they're always going to be willing to utilize that kind of experiment, that kind of excuse.

42:44

If one of the things you have to try to do in witnessing the Jehovah's Witnesses is to try to get them to stop viewing themselves as the society and to gain some type of perspective on the society, because otherwise there's going to be no critical thought, there's going to be no willingness to critically examine the society and their claims.

43:05

The idea of increasing light is an excuse that they offer for the various false teachings that have marked the

43:14

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in the past, and it ends up, you know, it's interesting, most people are not aware of this, but the society has even embraced a view of God that is very similar to open theism, that God does not actually know the future,

43:30

He is predicting the future. And that does fit with the increasing light type thing, and most open theists don't believe that there can actually be predictive prophecy outside of a very narrow range because God can't know what free creatures are going to do.

43:46

And so there's a real hole in their theology at that point. And it's really a spiritual thing to pray that someone will become uncomfortable, no longer satisfied by what they're experiencing within the society itself.

44:05

And one of the best ways to inculcate that, it's the second time I've used inculcate in one broadcast, that may be a new record, but to bring that about in their life is through the

44:16

Christian witness of love and showing concern for them, because the society can be pretty harsh, can be very, very harsh.

44:25

And this person may not listen to what you're saying, listen to you right now, but when they're treated that way or they see a loved one treated that way, sometimes these things come back to them.

44:35

So you may feel like, man, I just don't really feel like I got anywhere, but it can be years when something that is said comes back when that type of thing happens.

44:45

But as far as that particular concept goes, my response to someone when

44:51

I'm talking to Jehovah's Witnesses that I don't have the opportunity of creating a personal relationship with or things like that, it's in somebody's home situation,

44:59

I know I'm never going to talk to them again, they're never going to want to talk to me again, et cetera, et cetera. My challenge is going to be, well, how can we identify

45:08

Jehovah's One organization when every time we look at what they've taught historically and they've given false prophecies or changed doctrines or changed teachings and you've got the 1975 stuff and you've had 1914, it's now disappearing and all the rest of this stuff.

45:26

What kind of a test could you possibly give to the society today that would not be subject to the increasing light excuse tomorrow?

45:38

How is there any objective reality and how does that compare with the teaching of the Apostles and the

45:43

New Testament where Paul can stand in the Areopagus and with firmness proclaim that God's going to judge the world by this man that he's appointed,

45:54

Jesus Christ, who's going to be raised from the dead and so on and so forth and there's no caveats added, anything like that at all.

46:02

It does not seem to be a biblical standard that they're utilizing there. And some good examples, and there are a lot of them out there in Dwayne Mignogne's books and people like that, of how can increasing light explain editing of texts or hiding the number of times that the divine name appears in the

46:26

J sources in their New World Translation where they've just removed stuff that they know they had, they knew it was there, but how is that even any type of light, increasing light or anything else?

46:39

It's just an excuse. And that's the best you can do is try to bring that type of thing to bear and say, so this is really the best that Jehovah's organization can do is to talk about increasing light.

46:54

Don't you really think we should be able to look at the history of an organization and judge it on the basis of that?

47:01

But again, until they're dissatisfied with the food at the theocratic table, it may seem like you're just not really saying much to them.

47:14

Yeah, I appreciate that. That's good insight. And I've actually been praying that he'll become dissatisfied with the organization.

47:22

I think that's good counsel. And if you don't have time for this, it's fine.

47:28

But one thing he threw out to me, and I still haven't known what to do with it, is more of just that they believe Adam and Eve are condemned forever.

47:37

Have you run across that kind of thing? Or is it just maybe his particular view? No, I think that is the official perspective.

47:46

I can't comment on how long that's been or how far back that goes. I may have known that once.

47:52

But I'll admit, I haven't been doing nearly as much on Jehovah's Witnesses as I did back in the 80s and 90s when

48:01

I used to subscribe and all the rest of that kind of stuff. But how does that issue come into the witnessing?

48:12

The discussion was over original sin and the fall and things like that. And he was basically saying,

48:19

Adam and Eve, just no chance of ever being in the new heaven or the new earth. They were just going to be completely condemned and destroyed by God, that there was no chance of forgiveness.

48:29

And I just thought, what? I've never even heard of such a thing. They've got some strange beliefs, but I think

48:37

I have heard that and I don't think he's out on a limb on that. I think that is their position.

48:44

There are things you can bring up. Very, very quickly, I remember in a lengthy conversation with a

48:51

Jehovah's Witness who was an expert attacking the Trinity, I turned the tables on him and asked him if he was in Christ.

48:57

And I talked about how many times that phrase is used in Ephesians 1, and I really pressed him on it. He became incredibly uncomfortable.

49:05

Soteriology is their weak spot. It really, really is. They're much more comfortable dealing with Trinity and things like that.

49:11

They spend very little time talking about stuff like being in Christ and stuff like that. So I would say a

49:16

Christocentric focus to your conversations would probably be very useful. Well, hey,

49:23

I really appreciate your time. I know you talked to other people, but I really appreciate your ministry. Very grateful.

49:28

Well, thank you. Pray for us. Thank you, Graham. God bless. Bye -bye. All right, we move along and talk to Matt.

49:36

Hi, Matt. Hey, how's it going? Hey, Florida. Everybody's talking about your state today for some reason.

49:45

What's that? Everyone's talking about your state today for some reason. Oh, yeah, well, there always seems to be something crazy going on in Florida anyway.

49:55

It's an honor to speak with you, Dr. White. I actually just purchased your book,

50:01

Scripture Alone, and I'm enjoying reading it right now. That's good. It's really great. I had kind of a two -part question.

50:09

I've been running across Christians on separate occasions, you know, just all over the place, and the

50:18

Book of Enoch seems to be a hot book to them. They want to try and make it, you know, as holy as the

50:26

Bible. They believe it could be included in the Scripture. I don't, but could you please, if you know about it, describe a concise history on that book?

50:37

Well, I assume you're referring to what we identify as the source of at least one quotation in the

50:47

Book of Jude. Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, it's two parts. You know, they did that too, but they try and make it sound like a bunch of Jews, you know, before Christ really, really accepted this book.

51:01

That was the second part of the question on that Jude quote, too. I'd have to go through some materials that I have on the pseudepigraphal works.

51:13

It's been a little while since I did much work on Enoch, but it's from the time period where the

51:20

Jews actually had recognized that the voice of God had ceased in prophecy. And so when someone says it was accepted by Jews, who do they mean?

51:30

In what way? It was never laid up in the temple. It never made the hands unclean.

51:37

So they need to differentiate between the books that made the hands unclean, that were laid up in the temple, that were enumerated by the

51:45

Jews as what we would call canon Scripture, and religious books that, for example, told the story of the heroic activities in the

51:54

Maccabees or whatever, and were considered to be great literature, similar to how some

52:00

Reformed folks view Pilgrim's Progress, but were never considered canon Scripture.

52:05

Were not considered to be the very speech of God. And so that's why Jude can quote from these books, is that they're extremely popular.

52:14

They're well known to everybody. He can make a point based upon them, but that's not the same thing as making them Scripture. And so the assumption is, well, the

52:24

New Testament writers would only quote from Scripture. Well, that makes Eratos, the Greek philosopher,

52:30

Scripture, too, because Paul quoted from him and the Areopagus. It does not follow that just because someone makes reference to written works that it would even cross their mind that their audience would automatically then assume that that's

52:44

Scripture any more than in my own church, and I like using this illustration because it's a good illustration.

52:51

My fellow elder, you know, I've used a few illustrations, but my fellow elder, Don Fry, you would almost think, you would almost think if you did not know better, that the 28th book of the

53:03

New Testament was the Pilgrim's Progress because he quotes from it all the time, but not as Scripture.

53:10

He knows, you know, it would never cross anyone's mind seriously that the number of references to Pilgrim's Progress means it was

53:17

Scripture in his mind. Our confession of faith is clear as to what the canon is, and it was pretty clear to the

53:24

Jews, too, at that point in time. So the idea of simple utilization equals canonicity is just shallow thinking and popular, very popular, but it's very shallow thinking.

53:40

It does not follow and cannot really be substantiated on a meaningful basis. So, you know, it was a book of piety, but to elevate it to the position of revelation would fly in the face of the history of the

53:56

Jews themselves who did not elevate it in that way. There may have been, now obviously, just as we have off -center groups today, there may have been people who gave it more weight than they should have or something, but that was never something that the

54:09

Jewish people as a whole did, either in Palestine or in Alexandria, either.

54:17

I think those are some really great answers. Are there any really good resources or multiple resources that I can look at as far as the history of the canonicity of Scripture?

54:27

Yeah, yeah. Michael Kruger's two books on the subject of canon, Canon Revisited, and I forget the name of the other one, but I think we carry at least one of them, maybe both of them,

54:38

I'm not sure. I think we carry the first one. I know we carry Canon Revisited, but then there's a paperback that came out after that.

54:44

But Dr. Michael Kruger, K -R -U -G -E -R, he's the president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, and his works on that subject are very, very good.

54:55

Okay, great, great. I appreciate your time. Okay, thanks, Matt. All right, have a good one. All right, God bless.

55:00

Bye -bye. Okay, let's try to sneak two more in here real quick.

55:06

Let's talk with Thomas. Hi, Thomas. Hey, how's it going? Good. That's good.

55:13

Hey, I just had a question. You know, with the election, I've been really trying to study the Church's role with the state, but in studying that, it got me thinking about American history and the idea that, you know, in Romans 13 how it says that we are to submit to the governing authorities.

55:28

So I was wondering, how did the Church sort of reconcile submitting to the authorities and at the same time, though, having a revolution against those governing authorities?

55:38

I guess I was having trouble with that. Yeah, well, I'm not an expert in the Revolutionary War.

55:45

I've read far, far more in the War Between the States is the most innocuous way of describing it.

55:54

But look, we need to recognize that when there was discussion of establishment, shall not establish a religion, that was because almost all the states had an established religion, and that was considered okay.

56:07

You had Anglicanism, and you had various groups that were established in various states, and the federal government wasn't supposed to override that, but it was allowed to have established religions in the states when the

56:20

Constitution was written. Most people are just utterly ignorant of those realities and history today.

56:27

Someone who's actually interesting in this area, and I would love, I've actually put, I think it's on my Amazon wish list.

56:33

Yeah, I put it on my Amazon wish list. Michael Medved is an expert in the Revolutionary War period.

56:38

He really is. I mean, the guy just knows his stuff. It's scary. I love listening when he does programs like that because it's great stuff.

56:46

And I'm sure he's commented on it, but there is a huge question to this day concerning the grounds upon which believers could ever engage in revolutionary activity and what would be required for a just war theory to apply in a revolutionary context.

57:07

And obviously there were lots of Christian ministers in the colonies that did not think that you could do that.

57:14

The ones that did felt that they could do so in light of the actions of British soldiers and savagery and things along those lines being so egregious that they violated any type of covenantal relationship that existed between the king and those that were under his authority.

57:33

But it is a huge question. It is a very tough question.

57:39

And it's not one that most of us have spent a whole lot of time actually thinking about. And you'll come up with a lot of different answers from folks on that very question.

57:50

So congratulations on asking a very good question. Thank you very much.

57:55

And I'll look up Michael Medved. I appreciate that. Okay. Now he's not a Christian. He's Jewish. But he's very friendly toward Christian people.

58:02

And he's one of the most... Well, he has a national radio program. And he's...

58:08

When it comes to talking about history and stuff, the guy's just an encyclopedia. It's scary.

58:14

So... All right. Thank you very much. Thanks, Thomas. All right, God bless. All right, last call. Let's talk to another

58:20

Allen in Georgia. Hi, Allen. Hi, and good evening, Dr. White.

58:25

Yes, sir. I'm Allen. I'm from Georgia. How are you? We're doing good. It's a pleasure.

58:31

Let me just say that I am Hispanic and I attend to a Spanish church here in Connecticut, Church of God.

58:40

And I want to say that your ministry has been a great blessing to myself and my wife and my family and the people

58:48

I know, because I'm a relatively new believer. I've only been in the faith for a couple of years.

58:54

And at the beginning, I struggled a lot with sin and failing God and perseverance of the faith.

59:01

And let me just say that your work has been great, which leads me to just, you know, saying that, first of all, thank you for everything you've done, but there's not a lot of resources in Spanish for people that are— for basically to learn about the

59:15

Reformed faith. And I know that it is in the Bible. That's what we're supposed to learn it from. But your work did it for me, but the church that I attend to, there's a lot of people that don't speak

59:26

English. And in my case, I found myself using some of your work to help me get deeper into theology and being able to explain to them some of the things from Reformed theology.

59:39

And you pointed me to some other resources, like you mentioned in another poll, Michael Kruger's work. Right. I listened to your debates.

59:46

I mean, all of that is a blessing. I just mentioned there's not a lot of resources in Spanish when it comes to Reformed theology.

59:52

There's some things from John Piper, some things from R .C. Sproul, but not really a lot, especially when it comes to sexual criticism or deeper topics like that, like the canon of the

01:00:03

New Testament. There's not really a lot of that from the Reformed perspective. And it's just something

01:00:08

I wanted to point out. I mean, in the future, I know you have a lot of connections if you get to talk to some of the other friends. Is that something that people have in mind on expanding?

01:00:15

Well, I know, look, we get people who say to me all the time, you know, can

01:00:20

I translate this? Can I translate that? Into all sorts of different languages. I go over to Kiev, and there's even less.

01:00:28

I mean, my book on grieving was like the first book on grieving in Russian. So there's actually a whole lot more in Spanish than there is in Russian or Czech and things like that.

01:00:45

And so, you know, if it's a book that is like public domain or it's no longer one of the big publishing houses, hey, be happy to have it translated.

01:00:54

A lot of folks talk about that, but you know how much effort it actually takes to actually do it. And so the reality is that the people that are going to get that type of stuff done are the

01:01:05

Paul Washers and the Pipers and the MacArthur's who have huge audiences. And hence publishers are willing to take a risk on something like that.

01:01:15

People like me, I did see a Korean version of my book on grieving once, but not sure that's going to help much.

01:01:24

But I think one of the reasons that you don't see as much translation work is, you know, my books tend to be very focused and I'm not a big name.

01:01:36

So that's sort of where that's coming from. I wish that translation was easier and could be done for all the books, but pretty much it's required individuals say, you know,

01:01:50

I believe this book is so important to my community that I'll do it. And then if it's, especially one of the ones that's currently in print from like Bethany House, you know,

01:02:00

Bethany House has to get involved and stuff like that. It can be done. My dear brother Nick in Ukraine, he's the one that translated the grieving book into Russian.

01:02:10

He did it all on his own dime. And so it can be tough. But yeah,

01:02:16

I wish, you know, if we were a big ministry, then that would be something we'd probably be looking into, but we're pretty small and that's why the translation thing is the way it is.

01:02:26

Well, don't be discouraged because I'll say that either way, it has been a blessing. A couple years back,

01:02:32

I knew somebody who lost their father in my church. I gave them a copy of your book of grieving.

01:02:38

Her English wasn't too good, but she still was able to get through it. She thanked me later for that. And I use your book specifically because two and a half years ago

01:02:46

I lost my grandmother. And I also went through your book and it was really great help for myself. So, I mean, when

01:02:52

God wants to use whoever and get the word out there in a different language, it will happen. Yes, indeed.

01:02:58

But I know you don't have a lot of time. I don't want to take a lot of your time. I think you have a specific question when it comes to law enforcement and a

01:03:04

Christian being in law enforcement. I'm a police officer in Connecticut, and I know from Romans 13, verse 3 and 4,

01:03:15

I mean, I thank God that, you know, I know I can do it as a Christian, but I do get a lot of, sometimes

01:03:20

I get pushbacks from different friends and family members, especially in Hispanic communities because, you know, different countries, law enforcement is not what it is in the

01:03:27

United States. Right. They're used to a corrupted version of it. Right. So when they think law enforcement, they think something bad and evil, whereas I tell people, biblically, it is a good thing.

01:03:38

It is there. I mean, what would you say to somebody, you know, theologically speaking, biblically speaking, about somebody who's in law enforcement who's also a

01:03:46

Christian? Well, you know, you have the biblical example of the soldier. You know, don't take anything other than what you're supposed to be given.

01:03:59

That's, there was no statement, you need to stop being a soldier. And obviously, the one who bears the sword is to be honored, and there is a need for the curbing of evil.

01:04:10

And so, to the Christian law enforcement officer, it is a, it's a high calling.

01:04:17

It's going to be a challenge, I think, in the future, because I would say that there comes a point in time when you have to determine when you are, see, see,

01:04:31

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Law has authority when it is based upon ethical, upon sound, a sound foundation of ethics and morality.

01:04:45

When the law itself becomes immoral, it loses its, its, its power, and it just simply becomes arbitrary rules enforced by a government upon its people.

01:04:57

And I think a Christian police officer may be facing a time in the future when you have to make a decision similar to a soldier who is commanded to do what is plainly and clearly immoral in God's sight.

01:05:16

And I think a time could come where you, you simply have to say, I can't do that.

01:05:22

The law may say to do that, but the law itself is immoral, and I, I cannot engage in immoral acts, even, you know, so that's, that's going to be a tough, a tough situation to face, but until, until that's the case, then

01:05:36

I, I would say that your calling is, is one that we all appreciate and need.

01:05:42

We thank you for it, and you don't get as much recognition as you, as you should, and we need lots of good

01:05:48

Christian police officers. My, my Greek professor for years in seminary and Bible college was a chaplain to the, to the,

01:05:56

I think it was Glendale police, maybe Phoenix police, I forget which one it was, but he was a chaplain to the, to the police officers, and so it's a, it's a good calling, it's good work.

01:06:06

Thank you, thank you, and let me just finish by saying I was actually inspired by another friend who's a

01:06:11

Christian police officer in the NYPD, and we both listen to your program, and do know that there's people in a cruiser sometimes just listening to you.

01:06:19

I cannot look at what you're doing, but yeah, and sometimes I'm in a road job with my headphones in, directing traffic, listening to one of your debates, or listening to you and Jeff Durbin talking about J .D.

01:06:32

Hall or something like that. So anyway, God bless you for your ministry, and I just wanted to say that.

01:06:38

Thank you so much for your answers, okay? Okay, thanks Alan. Thank you, buh -bye. Alright, God bless. Alright, well, there you go.

01:06:44

That's how you get through a day after a long trip.

01:06:51

So, there you go. Alright, thanks for listening to Violent Line. Hopefully on Thursday we'll be even more clearly functioning, or something along those lines.

01:07:01

And we'll have a lot to talk about after tonight, I'm sure. So, we'll see you then. Lord willing,