Thought Provoking: The Mormon Gospel Cannot Make You Right with God

Apologia Utah

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Welcome back guys. You have a few minutes to talk. We'd love to talk with you guys Cool. All right.

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Yeah, so tell it tell us your story like born in Utah born and raised like Guys all family

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Wish you wish Okay now

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I'm confused but yeah, so born in Utah born and raised LDS your whole life Yeah Interesting.

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Very cool. What's your guys's names? Kyle Kyle Miley Kyle Miley sweet.

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I'm Andrew. I'm Wade. This is way. That's my daughter Marley, right? Yeah. Nice to meet you guys Yeah, so we are evangelical

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Christians route here passing tracks to our LDS friends and neighbors just because we love you guys We care about you

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What what do you guys kind of know about? Christianity Okay, yeah, that's a good starting point, right

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Cool so, do you think that Jesus that you believe in is the same Jesus Christ of the Bible? Yeah, have you ever tested it you have

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Okay, I think Because I for me I feel like the way to Yeah, yeah

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That's when I felt Christ I think if I can feel if I can feel close to Jesus Christ and learn more about Here his words

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They're both testifying to me and I can both I can feel for both How could that be a different can

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I can I ask you something if a Muslim were to come up to you and go You know what?

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I think Jesus was a historical figure. I believe that he was alive in the first century and You know, my belief is that he is he was a great teacher

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But all the miracles of the Bible all the miracles stated, you know, you know in the doctrines that LDS Church possesses

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I don't agree with any of that. I don't I don't believe that I think Jesus was simply a man and that's all that he was just a man on earth and that's it

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Would you say that you know, they then have a different idea of Jesus to you, right?

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Okay Yeah, my question would be

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It's so much a question of who is Jesus to you it's what what is religion but because Because for me,

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I think I mean obviously we obviously I mean we don't need to get into how we share different beliefs like that I think most important question for me is

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What is Jesus doing? What is religion doing? I think if a

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Muslim can tell me that he's becoming a better person because of what he's been taught That's way more important than if he understands 100 % at that time who

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Jesus Christ is I guess then why would the LDS Church spend, you know, tons of money and hours to send, you know men and women around the world then to Proselytize or evangelize them if they're good with what they have and they don't have any wrong beliefs

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Then why would they need to bring them something different? I mean obviously we believe truth is truth.

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I believe doctrine is doctrine What is making me be a better person

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Baptism is essential for salvation Christ says there is no other way to enter the kingdom of God.

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And so I think for me, it's Okay, I know the same thing on my mission. It was talking to someone it wasn't

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Okay, you you believe you believe this you believe this you're wrong. You need to do this.

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Otherwise you're going to hell It's I can recognize you're a fantastic person

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I can recognize you're growing closer to God in all that you do This is how

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I have grown They're fans of us

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This is something about that game among us or something. Oh Yeah, so oh, well,

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I was just gonna ask him So with that I Lost my train of thought because of that guy.

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No, go ahead. Yeah, so What would you say to Jesus then right so in the scriptures the disciples

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They were following Jesus, but Jesus challenged them He says who do you say that I am and they were following him.

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So he cared actually what they thought about him Right. So if we say

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Jesus is something or someone different than what the scriptures say, the question would be is do you believe?

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Actually in the Jesus Christ of Scripture Right because if we say Jesus we can say

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Jesus all we want but doesn't mean we're talking about the actual same person Right, like yeah, because I like to think my thoughts and keep them according to Scripture, right?

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Regardless of my feelings because the Bible says in Jeremiah 17 9 that our hearts are deceitful of all things

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Desperately sick you can understand them. I like to go to 2nd Corinthians 11 verse 4 It's Paul.

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He's telling the church in Corinth People love to do that on these corners. So he's telling the church in Corinth He says that there's people who will preach a different Jesus a different gospel who will accept a different spirit

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So according to Scripture now There's people that are coming along in the at the Church of Corinth in that time in that area

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That are talking about a different type of Jesus not the same one Right, so the question is is who is

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Jesus in the gospel or the Gospels Jesus is presented in John 1 1

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It says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the

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Word was God It says all things were created through him

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Then it says nothing came into being unless it was created through Jesus right there in John 1 verse 1 through 3

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Do you believe that is the question? of all things

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Nothing came. Okay. So let me ask you then. Did he create Lucifer? I do love your shirt, too.

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Oh, thank you. Yeah, did he create Satan right? That's the question because Did he

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He created Lucifer. I Agree but I'd say Mormon doctrine teaches something different Colossians chapter 1 says that Jesus created all things on heaven and on earth

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Visible or invisible it says whether thrones principalities rulers or authorities all things were created through him

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It even says this and he is before all things and in him all things hold together

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The Bible teaches he did create Lucifer But Mormon doctrine says that he's the brother of Lucifer and that you're also the brother of Jesus.

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He's the offspring of Elohim in Heavenly Mother So if you're consistent with Joseph Smith's revelation, you can't agree with John chapter 1

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Colossians 1 14 through 16 Look it up.

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Yeah, look it up I'm not trying to prove that wrong. Oh, no. No, I think it'd be good to study it.

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That's what I'm saying Yeah, you don't have to look it up right now. You can't if you want but uh I'm saying study it then. Yeah, but basically what we're trying to say is when

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Jesus makes that statement especially in John 1 where he says all things have been created through him and And nothing that has come into being has come into being apart from him.

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That means that everything that has being Has been made Through Jesus and so essentially that precludes him from the category of anything that's created or made

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That means you and me and this earth that precludes him from that category if all things were made through him

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Then he can't be something that is created and so I guess where we're concerned is if if LDS doctrine has taught that Jesus was

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You know created at one point in time that he has a point of origin Whereas, you know, especially in the

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Greek and we studied this recently in the Greek when it says in our cane halal gas Kai halal gas and Kai halal gas and in chaos

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Basically, it's trying to say that ain it means no point of reference no point of origin it that word in the

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Greek means that there is no starting place to Jesus that he's always been God and And there's not a place where he began

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Became God or started to become God or that he was created in the process of Elohim or anything else that he's always been

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He's he's being you know That's a whole nother topic but I think

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That will say that we are one And I think

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If they're one we believe that means one in purpose Because they're their purposes and everything they're doing is so aligned

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That when it's when when it's saying that everything was made through Jesus Technically be

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God the Father even even though it's through Jesus because they are one Obviously, I mean

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I don't have a I don't sure the direct answer that that's just kind of what I don't think it's So, of course,

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I think you should wrestle with that scripture though Yeah Colossians 1 right 14 through 16

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But also John 1 because again it says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word

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Was God yeah, and in the Greek it's saying there's no point of origin or reference in time Did not come into being and Jesus himself says who do you say that?

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I am he tells that he challenges them. He says unless you believe that I am he says you will die in your sins

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Right. So if you get the wrong Jesus if you don't put your faith in the right

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Jesus You don't have a sacrifice for your sins and ultimately as well if your Jesus changes it changes the gospel, right?

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What's your third article of faith? Of The gospel yes, exactly.

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That's a different gospel than what's presented in Scripture I agree with the first part, but then it's added by obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles

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Galatians in the Bible chapter 1 Paul challenges the Judaizers in the church that's in Galatia because what they were doing they were trying to add

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Parts of the law back into the gospel. There are people who are Gentiles. Yeah Yeah, I'll explain right here.

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Okay, so the Judaizers were trying to tell Gentiles They were trying to say hey if you want to become a

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Christian you first need to be circumcised We have a ordinance a principle that you must observe. You're not just justified declared righteous before God by your faith alone

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No, you must be circumcised Paul says one little thing. Yeah, Paul says this he calls them.

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He says that's an anathema That's it. They're accursed essentially sent to hell for that, right?

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Unless of course they repent and put their faith in the true God repent for that false gospel But he he challenges them

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He says he says whoever comes to you even if it's an angel from heaven and comes down to you But if they preached you a gospel contrary to the one that you have been taught they are accursed

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The biblical gospel says the gospel ordinances and principles were all fulfilled solely through Jesus Christ in Christ alone

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That if I try to add anything on top of that to make myself righteous before God I lost the gospel

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It says in Galatians 3 It says if you look to be justified by the law then the death of Christ has no effect on you

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So if you think that obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles earns you a position before the father to present your own righteousness

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You failed that's not the gospel The gospel is this the free gift of God is through each in is eternal life through faith alone in Jesus Christ Yeah The gospel perfect Yes, the good news is the good news, right?

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So the gospel is this it says in Romans chapter 3 that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God No one seeks after God.

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No one understands God all have gone astray It says that the venom of asps like the venom of snakes is under our lips our throats are an open grave

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It's wrong. It's three What that means is that we stand in a position before God as sinners dead in our sin because we are from Adam We're not from God Before in a pre -existence.

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No, I exist under the headship of Adam. This is in disagreement with your first article of faith But Romans is in disagreement with the first article of faith.

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Oh It's the second article perfect. So That meaning this that if I were to try to work as much as I wanted to work to please

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God The Bible says my righteousness is nothing but filthy rag To make myself righteous before God that's why

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God himself Humbled himself took on flesh Philippians chapter 2 and was obedient to the

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Father Obedient to even to the point of death death on a cross Right, so it's

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Jesus Christ who is perfect to the law born of a virgin not under the federal headship of Adam Who is successful in every single way?

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So when I stand before God, I'm justified by the work of Christ alone

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Yeah, that's the gospel. So if you put your faith in Jesus and his work Baptism is not essential in the

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Christian faith. It's important, but it's not essential. So when you're quoting John, well, it's essential but it's not

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Salvific it's not salvific. It's important, but we essential to our salvation. Yeah So Yeah What he means by that is and it goes back to what he's talking about about the gospel is that there's no work

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There's there's no ordinance that you can do but even the thief on the cross Had faith in his last dying moments and he said

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You know, he rebuked the people who are mocking Jesus and basically Jesus then tells him today you will be with me in paradise.

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So that man was never baptized right and yet Jesus promises him salvation and Basically, whether it be circumcision or baptism or anything like that Those are things that we would add on like if this were the atonement of Jesus if this were just right here his blood

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And his atoning work on the cross And if we try to add anything on top of it, we've changed the gospel.

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That's the principle of Galatians, but You know, we don't preach that You just then live lawlessly, you know, we're often attacked and said well you guys just think then we can live

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However, we want no even Romans chapter 6 Paul says, you know Should we keep on sinning that grace may abound may it never be how can we who have died to sin continue to live in?

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So we we understand that if you've been given this root of salvation

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That it'll bear fruit, but that fruit the good deeds that you do Don't merit or earn you that root of salvation.

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What we're trying to say is when Christ saved us I Left drunkenness.

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I left I left my life of grave sin and now that I've believed on Christ and he's rescued me

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There's fruit of that there's evidence of that in my life Well, we're concerned is that it's flipped the other way with Mormonism and it would say word of wisdom

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Temple endowments going on mission. It's having perfect attendance. It's doing all that and it's those

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Yep, and so there's the added on top of the atonement work that were that we see the

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Bible says no Sure, those things are evidence, but it's not these plus this equals salvation

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It's only this and those things will be a result of it. And so baptism I'm a pastor at a

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Christian Church in South Jordan. We had a couple baptisms a few weeks ago Jesus says in the

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Great Commission He says, you know go therefore make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the

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Father Son the Holy Spirit and I think Everyone who's a Christian should be baptized. But we're what we're trying to say is that is an outward symbol

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Of something that unites us to Christ of an inward change, but it's not something that Is plus what

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Jesus did and so it's essential in that as Christians We should be baptized.

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But if someone today were to turn to Jesus Christ today We were to preach and he goes walking into that crosswalk and he gets hit by a car

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He will be saved and he won't need someone to do baptism by proxy or depth baptism for the dead

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That the work of Jesus alone is so powerful. His blood is so powerful

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Baptism for the dead or something like that isn't needed because it's Jesus alone. It's only Jesus.

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It's only his work so that's what we're trying to say is You can almost look at it like an equation, right?

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Anything plus that work of Jesus? Does it it's a change of the gospel and that's the principle that we get from Galatians That's our concern is that it might be that not might be we see a different Jesus who was created in the pre -existence who is

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Who is not God from all eternity? Which would? Which would make him?

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Impotent right if he's just an elevated man if we were all just once men You know and he was just a man before and then then he came down and he's this he's this demigod in a way he could never take the wrath of God like the wrath of God the holy wrath of God that would

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Give judgment in the hell to all people who would believe Just poured out on a kind of demigod man could never be done

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God has to pour out his wrath on God only God Jesus God could take the wrath of God That makes sense.

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I've talked a lot. So tell me your thoughts Okay I mean, it was just in the talk.

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It was by Brad Wilcox. It was called his grace is sufficient because I believe 100 %

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We were saved by grace and in the way that he explained it it was it was like I'm gonna get it wrong

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It's been a long sure. Sure. Sure. No problem I know

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Brad Wilcox and I know he's been talking about grace lately, but I haven't heard it So I'm just talking he really he related it to like a kid who's taking piano lessons

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He's taken he's taking the piano lessons. He's playing His mom has already paid the teacher.

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His mom's already paid the teacher Practicing does not give his mom any money back.

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He's practicing doesn't Or like his mom paying doesn't doesn't make him all of a sudden a fantastic.

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Yeah. Hey, how's it going? He's practicing his his practice his mom's paid lessons

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Doesn't make him a good piano player But he shows that he's devoted and he's grateful for this incredible gift that has been giving to him by using his choice to practice and so I think

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Everyone no matter who you are no matter your circumstances no matter your religion Everyone has access to God's grace to Christ's grace

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Everyone is able to to be perfected in him and and that's because 100 % of his grace his infinite power allows

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And the reason the reason that I believe that ordinances are essential the reason

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I think the Baptist is essential Because I can say I can say yeah, I'm converted to Christ, but someone else can say that yeah

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What actually defines that what because I could be on a totally different level than someone else.

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I'm not a pastor What you're a pastor? For all I know you spend 20 hours a day studying the scriptures doing this this this this

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I'm not spending 20 and I know you're not but like for that example, so that so So, why are you not able to get higher or lower to me as it's not because you're more devoted or not

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I believe Because it shows like God I'm willing to do this and it's also not just yes

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I will follow this blindly and do this and this this it's I don't I don't follow the commandments out of fear of what happens

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If I don't I follow the commandments Because of the blessings that are promised and because it makes me feel like I'm becoming a better person and I mean

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Jesus Christ The greatest commandment above all love God and I love my neighbor. I came before anything else

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Yeah, I Think in many ways like you and I both agree that when someone

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Turns to Jesus their life will look different. It should right we and that's what it sounds like from what you're saying, too well, we're trying to articulate is

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Like when Christ died in In and that happened in the in the first century there and he said on the cross it is finished it is done

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Was it accomplished there like was it was all that was needed for someone to be saved accomplished there

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Or or does it take then someone's response and someone's actions to be saved?

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I think the Bible overwhelmingly Demonstrates that he is the one who gives it says a new heart of flesh and room removes the heart of stone

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He says I'll put my law within you that you will obey me and that you won't need to tell anyone your neighbor to do this or do that the

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Holy Spirit will will will come in you and and that will happen but we're Saying I think we we would both say that it's gonna look different for someone

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Who's turned to Jesus there? They're gonna change, right? but just How is that?

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How is that atonement in fact, it's called we even use language where it's called the great exchange

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You know, it says he became a curse for us and and then it talks about especially in Romans chapter 4 and 5 that he

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Imputed to us his righteousness. So there was a great exchange He he took on our sin and became a curse and then he imputed to us

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His his righteousness. So there was an exchange that happened there. And so What we're trying to say is

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All that it costs me To follow Jesus Is my sin, which is nothing

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If that makes sense, it's only his work and it's not any of those other things that gain that Those will be fruit of that Yeah, and I guess you know and I've heard recently that Brad Wilcox almost has a different view from You know the

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DNC's and and from the Book of Mormon that he's Not he doesn't have

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Have the exact evangelical idea of grace, but he's talking a little bit more like it because like language

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But he doesn't contradict article 3 Right because like Moroni 10 1032 if you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the

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Lord with all your might mind and strength Then God's grace is sufficient for you. That's an if -then statement.

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Have you done that that and that's that's that's our concern is throughout LDS doctrine so Brad Wilcox may have said that and it's really good and you enjoy it

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But you know many of the president's many of the prophets tons of the documents in fact

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Didn't the current president even say? No, was it Hinkley who was on Larry King live?

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And there's been moments you've seen that There's been moments where they've said yeah, it's not by grace alone, you know, and that's of course 2nd

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Nephi 2523, you know for by grace you've been saved after all that you can do so grace is effectual

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Right after all that you can do but we're saying The Bible says for for by grace, you've been saved through faith not of yourselves not of yourselves

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For by grace, you've been saved unmerited favor and Ephesians 2 says you were dead in your trespasses and sin, but he made you alive in Christ So the image is someone who's dead at the bottom of the sea

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It's not someone who's floating and needs a life, you know, save or thrown to them

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It's someone who's dead we get we're essentially it's like a resurrection in a way He made us from dead to Alive again through Christ and then he he basically articulates in verse 8 for by grace

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You've been saved through faith for it is not of yourselves Is not for it is a gift of God not a result of works

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Not a result of works so that no man may boast Only only God can have the boast only

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God can boast about it. So it's an image of a dead man or dead woman Christ saves them any any

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Effectuates his his atoning work on them and he saves them by his love purely by his love it says, you know

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Christ died for the ungodly Even even while we were still yet sinners Christ died for us so Mormon Church historically, maybe

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I don't know about again what you're learning now But historically has taught do these things and you will be saved and there's so many people who feel that pressure

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Maybe you don't feel that pressure now But so many people have articulated that to me in this valley is just this crushing pressure that they're never good enough

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That if they don't go on mission that they don't get married and sealed in the temple all these things

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They'll never get to the levels of heaven that they hope to gain But Jesus says it's just me.

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It's just my blood. It's just me, but your life's gonna change. You're gonna look different But LDS Church, you must look different before Grace takes over.

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So that does that make sense the difference that that we're trying to articulate Yeah So that's a work then so so that goes against Ephesians 2 for by grace you've been saved not according to works

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So that's a work then it's not just this like we talked about now baptism is added to the work of Jesus But and so that's what

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I'm saying. We're not going to come to an agreement there. Okay, I see what you're saying whether or not what

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What we can interpret this to mean as as far as what you must do with grace and what you must do with works

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I think it's been more than clear that Christ has taught that baptism is essential And that is no one can take advantage of the gift of God.

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That you must be passed through the water of life. It doesn't mean you have to be perfect. It just means that you have to be triumphant.

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So what about the thief on the cross then? He wasn't baptized. So what I would say there is, I mean, did you, so he said today, today you'll be saved.

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Did Jesus Christ ascend to the Father that day? No, he went and taught to the spirits for three days before he ascended to the

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Father. So what I would say there is, it fits exactly with what my beliefs are personally, that there is a spirit world where there exists paradise and prison.

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And that is before, that is before exaltation, that is before salvation, that is before ascending to the Father just as Christ did.

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Yeah. And that's why, same thing, that's why I believe in baptisms. So that's where I believe that yes, he will be in paradise, which is 100 % in line with Christ.

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So what's paradise then? A waiting place for exaltation, you're saying?

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Kind of. It's before Christ comes again, these spirits are waiting in the spirit world where paradise is, it says it's for the righteous.

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We believe that those are generally people that are going and teaching to one another. Those that are in paradise, prison, those are the spirit world.

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That's why we believe. Right. If I can add something here, I think one thing we've got to understand is that Jesus is never going to give up on you.

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So like those that feel overwhelmed and overwhelmed by pressure to be perfect or feel that they're not good enough,

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I think the key thing that they're, yeah, it's not from God, that's from Satan. But what about Article 3?

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Can you reach the highest level of heaven without it? I don't have it memorized. And so what I want to say is Jesus is never going to give up on you in the sense that like if you feel like you're not good enough, like you just have to keep working with Jesus.

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But what if he was good enough for you? That's the question.

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But like I get to the highest level of heaven because of Christ. Just because God is good doesn't mean that you don't have it.

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Like if our goal is to become a better person, and surely that's what

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Jesus wants to help us do, because there's joy in helping us become a better person. Christ cannot make you someone.

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He cannot take away your ability to choose. He cannot zap you into a billionaire.

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Like he could make you into a billionaire. But what I want to say is he won't change your character unless you choose to change your character.

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He won't be your slaver and make you become something that you don't want to become in the first place.

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Okay, I guess like going back to John 1, it says in 13 and 14, it says that essentially, well actually in 12 and 13, it says that he gave us the right, through him he gave us the right to become children of God.

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And it says not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, not any of our will, but by the will of God.

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That it's God's desire to make us children of God. Okay, by doing so you eliminate everyone's ability to choose by taking them somewhere.

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And you like, I feel like God would respect your choice. Well that's the question, right? So John chapter 6, it says no one can come to me unless the

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Father who sent me draws him. And all that the Father gives to me will come to me. And I will never cast them out.

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John chapter 6. Romans chapter 3. No one understands God. No one seeks God. All have gone astray.

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So naturally our position before God is dead in our sins. And you said you want to be a slave.

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Actually the Bible demonstrates that now I'm a slave to Christ. I'm a slave to Christ. Happily, he purchased me with his blood.

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I didn't choose to follow him, he saved my soul. God is perfectly loving, right? Yeah. What if you didn't want to be with God, would he make you be with him?

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He, all whom he desires to save, he will save. Yeah, it's all his prerogative.

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We're talking about not this God who's kind of like us. Forcing someone to do something is evil.

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If they can never, basically if they could never choose God like the Bible says, then the most loving thing he could do is save us and change our hearts and change our minds.

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That's what grace and mercy is. It's unmerited favor or it's no longer a gift. But then you take away the whole purpose of life.

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Why are we here? Why are we making decisions? Why come to earth at all? It is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.

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He made this world. But that makes my life meaningless. No, no. It's because you're not following the God of the Bible. That's the thing. You believe in a different God.

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This is where we just have an impasse. And I appreciate your time. Yeah. This is where our beliefs,

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I respect you guys so much. I actually think you're doing a great work. But this is where we just believe so differently.

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Well, you believe differently than scripture and that's why you have other scriptures. That's the point. That's why we care about you. Number one, it says in Isaiah 43, 10.

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Before me, there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me. Not an eternal regression of gods.

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I am the first and I am the last. Beside me, there is no God. He says, look around. I know not one. Do we worship any other gods?

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But you believe you'll become one one day. Will you be worshipped one day, young man? That's not what scripture says.

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Okay. As God is, man once was. Or no, as man is, God once was.

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As God is, man may become. Lorenzo Snow. Is God worshipped? Yes. Will you, if you're obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles?

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Will you, when you become a god? Yes. Thank you. The Bible demonstrates, before me, there was no

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God formed. Neither shall there be after me. Any god, there is no other god that I will worship.

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That's not what the text says. It says, before me, there is no God formed. Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

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There's one God. Not one in purpose. There's one God. You gotta struggle with those things, guys.

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You will never be worshipped. You will never be a god. There's only one God. And our greatest desire is to come before him and worship him.

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I know you're smiling, but you won't be a god. Guys, the devil told Adam and Eve the same thing. He comes to Eve, right?

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And Eve says, no, I can't eat from that tree. The devil says this. He goes, did

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God say that? He says, just like Joseph, the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts.

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Did God say that? Then he says, guess what? If you eat from that fruit, you will become just like God.

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Joseph promises you the same thing. Knowing good from evil. You will become like God. Like God, knowing good from evil.

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And they don't know good from evil. They didn't know good from evil. Right. So they ate it. Okay, but what's

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Mormon doctrine? Why do they fall in words? If I can interrupt here. I don't think this is going anywhere. Good.

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So if it's okay, we'll just order. Yeah, yeah. It's on our way. Okay. Appreciate it.

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Wade. Andrew. Nice to meet you. Look up that Colossians text. And Jesus' desire for everyone.

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Good to meet you. Is not to become a better person. It's to repent and turn to him. So that's the thing.

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All men everywhere are to turn and repent and follow Christ. So that's our hope. Not to be better Muslims, better Hindus, better anything.