Road Trip DL: Responding to Eric Conn and Andrew Torba

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:27

Well, greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line, and there we are, Road Trip Dividing Line.

00:34

I'm not going to mention where I am right now, simply because it's small enough town that it'd be easy for someone to find me.

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There's a couple RV parks, but it'd be too easy to find. Anyways, on our way home, left

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Denver today. It was really warm there the whole time I was there, about 10, 11 days, and it cooled off today, but I can't complain.

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I mean, no, I ride my bike while I'm up there, and I really enjoy that, and yeah, I had to ride in some heat, but it's better than riding in the rain.

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Arizonans melt when we ride in the rain, so that's not a good thing. So anyways, we are coming to you from somewhere between Denver and Phoenix, obviously.

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Actually, it's going to take me a few days to get home, just for safety reasons and stuff like that.

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I don't push long days. As I get older, it's just better to do it in reasonable chunks, and so we're on our way.

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I remember reading 1984 in high school, and that was before 1984, so a lot of you have read it since 1984, but I read it about 1977,

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I would say, 78, somewhere around in there. And I'm looking at the

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Crown Prosecution Service. This is the cops in the UK.

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These are the people who are allegedly upholding the law, and the first thing it says is, think before you post, and they're literally posting.

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You go to, let me see here, so you can, at CPSUK on Twitter, at CPSUK, the

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Crown Prosecution Service is responsible for criminal prosecutions in England and Wales, and they're posting stuff about how many people they have prosecuted for offense, not for rape or burglary or burning a building down or something like that, but for offending other people by speech.

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And it's, what can you say? I want to,

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I would like to sit one of these people down, because they have an interview with the guy who's the head of all this stuff, all the prosecutions they're doing.

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I'd like to sit down with them and go, do you know anything about the history of your nation? Do you know anything about British common law?

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Do you know where it came from? Do you have any idea the impact scripture, the

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Bible, the Christian faith had in forming the fabric of your nation?

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Do you not understand what it means that, from a biblical perspective, innocent until proven guilty, you know?

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You have to be able to face your accusers. How about just having enough maturity to remember when we used to say things like, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

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This generation's never heard of that one. Who believed that? We all did. If I could remember the number of times

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I said that, or my friends said that on the playground in third grade, but yeah,

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I know it was a long time ago, half a century, well, more than half a century ago. Wow, the degradation happened very, very fast.

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Part of me would like to feel something for these people, but I can't. These mealy -mouthed, wimpy bureaucrats, you know,

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I saw a video of this female police officer in the UK arresting someone for having posted something offensive on Facebook.

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And she's in body armor and all the rest of this stuff. And I'm just like, she couldn't arrest a full -grown male.

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She tried. He could just throw her around like anything. And she doesn't have a gun. There's nothing she can do about it.

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But don't they have a conscience? Don't they realize what they're, well, I was going to say, don't they realize what they're doing is wrong?

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The way you're educated, quote unquote, indoctrinated today, maybe they don't,

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I don't know. But it's utterly amazing. Think before you post.

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This is meant to stifle speech. This is straight out of Orwell.

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It's straight out of, it's exactly what he said would happen, is happening. And believe you me, cackling

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Kamala, the Marxist, and Waltz, oh my goodness,

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I had no idea. I was born in Minnesota, to cry it out loud. It's my home state. What a fall.

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The things this guy has done, the bills that he has signed, he is far more radical than Harris.

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If you can do that, I mean, who knows what, all she does is cackle, no, no. IQ of a wet shoelace.

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But this guy, he is just as evil as they come. Tampons in boys' rooms, seriously?

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Abortion up to the point of birth, and then let the thing lay there on the table and die.

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I mean, ghoulish. And so connected to China that it's just so obvious what's going on here.

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It's so obvious these people are sock puppets of the CCP. But everybody just sits around going, oh, no,

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I sound a little mean, and I see all the gulags.

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Anyway, I started listening to Megan Basham's book on the way down from Denver, and wow,

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I see why Big Eva is doing everything they can.

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It's not that I didn't know, I mean, she's done just a tremendous amount of work in digging out the connections, the money, the money, the money, the money, the money.

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Michael Fallon told me starting 2016 about the money coming from Riyadhi and people like that,

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Soros, obviously, and how it was going to the seminaries. It was, you know,

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Michael Fallon knew about all this stuff for years, and everybody was looking at him like, you're really weird, dude.

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But I saw the results of it. It was obvious. Being an apologist is,

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I have to always keep in mind that not everybody is an apologist, and you have to be careful that you don't lose your balance and stuff like that.

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But it does give you a unique perspective. You hear things a lot of other people don't hear.

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You see shifts and movements that a lot of the people don't necessarily see.

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And so I saw this stuff happening, but I didn't know where the money was coming from.

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And you'd like to sit there and think, ah, fellow believers wouldn't be, you know, they wouldn't be compromising the church for money.

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Let me tell you, it's really easy. It's really, really easy when somebody offers you money to simply translate that into we have found a way to do even more ministry for more people.

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So easy, so easy to do. Believe me, with the way we do things, people are very rarely coming up to us and offering us, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.

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That's that's never happened. But I could I could see how people who started off well.

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Have ended up. Not well at all, and that's that's sad to see, so I'm only like two and a half chapters in, it's only like a four and a half hour drive today, and I wish

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I had marked it. I hit a spot today on the 25 coming south.

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I'm pretty certain it was south of Colorado Springs, so maybe somewhere around Pueblo. If you just drive a regular car, you just don't.

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When you see those dark spots. On the road, he's got no idea.

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Most cars just go over it and you sort of feel a little, you know. Especially bridges, man,

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I hit the worst I've ever hit in Colorado, I mean, worse in Louisiana, worse than Missouri.

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Worse than. I was pretty close in New Mexico, but it's still in Colorado. When you hit those bridges, if they're not done right.

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And the thing is, it'll hit different vehicles differently. You know, everyone's unique.

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And so, you know, your particular truck with the length of the thing you're pulling and stuff it. This was the worst, everything in here was moved forward.

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I mean, this whole thing went forward onto the onto the hitch in the truck.

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I was very thankful and I wasn't speeding, I was probably doing 10 miles an hour below the speed. But I was very thankful we upgraded to a hitch in the truck that's rated 25 ,000 pounds, because man alive, you get something that weighs 16 ,000 pounds going 65 miles per hour and all of a sudden it's like it just, oh, wow.

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Yeah, I was picking up a lot of stuff, stuff ended up in places I didn't expect. I don't

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I haven't seen any real structural damage, but man alive. I wish I knew where that was. I would

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I'd crawl over it the next time. Just part of the life of of of being on in the

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RV and doing what we do anyway. So, boy, do we have a lot to get to today.

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Um, where do we even where do we even start?

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I suppose we should start with the most serious stuff. Um, I I do not.

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Enjoy and seek division amongst brothers. For example, when

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I when I mentioned. The meme about what, about 10 days ago.

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Of. Little girl asking your mother, what's the Holocaust? That's when the

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Jews were asked, I think he's even said, asked to do manual labor, and they said it was killing them.

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Doug Wilson had talked about it. Doug had pointed out that that's all there's obviously so much.

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Bias and prejudice, as if Jews never do manual labor, I mean, look up Jewish manual labor sometime and all you'll see will be images of all the horrific things that were done to them by the

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Nazis. Um, so there was there was clearly a anti -Jewish bias just in the statement itself that depersonalizes individuals and turns them into just a group.

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But that's one of the real problems right now. You've got people talking about the Jews. And. You know, you can talk about the

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Jews. Prior to 8070, I don't think you can talk about the

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Jews since then in any meaningful fashion. Um, and the idea that, you know, they're behind everything and they're behind all the evil in the world, all this.

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Just stupidity, but anyway, there was that meme and Doug had talked about it and in very measured tones.

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And then I talked about on the dividing line. There were certain people, one certain individual.

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Who assumed that I had him individually in mind. In comments that honestly were.

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Meant to be taken very, very general. Um. And, you know, so here's here's a brother who assumes that I'm attacking him personally when

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I was not. Uh, I did not have him in mind. I was not trying to say that he should step down from minister, anything like that.

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And that's the danger in this is that people can get very. Sensitive and, uh, lots of division and lots of stuff like that.

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And so I'm. I'm aware of the challenges in even trying to address stuff like this, and I'm not looking for.

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Um, more division. I mean, when I, when I think back just 10 years ago and I think of the reform community at that time, wow.

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Um. The, the number of doors that were open to me then that are not now.

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And. No, people accuse me a lot of things. Fact of matter is I'm normally accused of as just being a stick in the mud.

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I keep repeating the same stuff I've been preaching and teaching all along. And I'm just not going along with, uh, whatever new thing there is.

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Um, that's part of the problem. So, uh, I don't want the conflict, but I'm not gonna,

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I'm not gonna run from it. And if things start coming to my attention, like all sorts of people with 1689 in their bios saying

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Hitler was just trying to keep sexual perverts out of Germany. Um, I'm going to,

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I'm going to go, Oh, whoa, people. Hello. What's going on here?

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Um, this is, this is not making any sense whatsoever. Um, so I saw, uh, y 'all saw the conversation about Aristotle and Philia.

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Well, there was a conversation on Twitter. There was a quotation and having done some more looking into it, other people doing, looking into it.

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I asked, uh, my guys, uh, we have a chat channel type thing, a secure server.

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And I asked my guys do a little looking around as to where this quote came from. And it turned out it was some

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French guy who went through a number of phases in his life, but ended up as a sort of a white supremacist type dude.

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And, uh, Andrew Torber was quoting from him and it was

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Aristotle talking about what's called Philia, you know, Philosophia, Agape, Agapao, um, all that, all that kind of stuff, various words for love, friendship, things like that.

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And Aristotle was talking about, um, city states and city states for us would be small townstates.

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Um, I, I mean, you know, the suburbs in Phoenix have hundreds of thousands of people in the suburbs and those would be much larger than any of those city states could get.

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I mean, cities could just only be so big, uh, farmland, transportation, stuff like that anyway.

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Um, and so I had made some comments about that and, and I had, I had specifically made the statement and I need to try to pull this up here.

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Um, I, I had, oh, that's not it. Uh, I, I had made a comment on something that, something that Eric Kahn had said.

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And, uh, got to get all these other things out of the way first.

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I might talk about David's ranch. I don't know, but it's sad. Uh, that's just so much sad stuff.

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Uh, I had started to interact with, uh,

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Eric Kahn and I had quoted what I was arguing was that Aristotle lacked necessary divine revelation to be able to meaningfully address how we can have peace and harmony with one another.

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He was basing that on ethnicity. You need to have a mono -ethnic city state to have peace and harmony.

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Well, um, okay. You know, you can make that general observation, but history is filled with mono -ethnic city states that fell apart.

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Being of the same ethnos does not mean that sin is dealt with. And, um, look at, look at suburbs in Chicago today.

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They're almost mono -ethnic. And the violence is amazing. The black on black violence all through the summer, you never hear about it.

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You have to look it up. But dozens and dozens of people will be shot and killed every weekend in Chicago.

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And it's 99 % black on black violence. So you have a city state bigger than Aristotle could have imagined, but you've got a city state, you've got mono -ethnicity and you've got murder right, left, and center.

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So mono -ethnicity, uh, and you can go to Europe, you can go back into history.

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You can see the Scots fighting with the Scots and you can see the Scots and the English fighting against one another and, and the

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Irish were off doing their thing. And, and history is just filled with the fact that those kinds of neat little theories collapse in the face of sin.

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They do. You're going to, if you're in a mono -ethnic society, you're going to carve out your group against that group over there anyways.

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So if you want to have true philia, um, the

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New Testament teaches where it comes from. It has nothing to do with ethnos. It has to do with pneuma.

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It has to do with the spirit of God creating peace.

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So you see once the Christian message has always been, you need to have peace with God.

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And here's how that happens. And once you have peace with God, then you can have peace with your wife and you have peace with your children and your parents and, and hence that, that family.

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And now the church community becomes one body.

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This was the amazing, because see the Romans, the

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Romans understood this and that's why they let variously conquered peoples have their gods and their religious worship and stuff like that.

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They realized if you try to make everybody into a Roman in the sense of worshiping like the Romans, it wasn't going to work.

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And so they let people do their thing, uh, in that way.

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Um, take this watch off. And, um, so, but, but the

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Romans understood this and the Christians come along and they have this radical idea, this radical idea that, that slaves and their masters, um, ethnic groups that had engaged in warfare against one another, um,

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Jews and Gentiles, males and females can all come to the table of the

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Lord together on an absolutely equal level with one another. And this, this was the great danger to the imperial system.

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It really was. And it was revolutionary, but it's what

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Christianity does. And so what I had stated was that, um,

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Aristotle lacking that scriptural biblical divine revelation, um, could not really properly analyze the human condition the way that we can with Romans one.

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I specifically made reference to Colossians chapter three, and that's not the first time

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I've made reference to that. Those of you who know me know that in 2018 we did a, um, pre -conference presentation at G3 and I was joined by a number of people and we talk about, we still available,

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I think, assume it is, uh, Colossians three was central to my presentation and to just remind people what the text is, uh, is about Colossians three, eight, do not lie to one another since you put off the old man with its evil practices.

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So there's this, and this is what all Christians have experienced if they're truly Christians.

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That's why I, I reject nominal Christianity. I reject the Christendom ideas as well.

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It's better to be nominal Christian. No, if, if you're still the old man, you can't put off the evil practices.

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They're always going to be there. Um, put off the old man with his evil practices and have put on the new man.

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Here's the new man, the new man who is being renewed to a full knowledge according to the image of the one who created him.

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So there is a renewal process and it's a renewal to a full knowledge according to the image of his creator.

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This is, I mean, you think about it, we talk about being made in the image of God, there is a renewal process, the new man, spirit of God, and we are being conformed more and more to image of Christ, which was, who is the very image of God.

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But then Paul says in Colossians 3, 11, a renewal in which there is no distinction.

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Now distinction is that there is no distinction is a, um, insertion, uh, into, because it literally says where there is not one

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Jew or Greek Jew and Greek, uh, hop, uh, any

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LN, Kai, you dios, there isn't a

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Jew or Greek. Um, there is no circumcised or uncircumcised.

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There is no barbarian. There is no Scythian. There is no slave.

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There is no free, but all, but Christ is all and in all, but Christ is all and in all.

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So here's the picture of the church. And you know, you're talking about people.

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I want a Christian nation. Okay. What's what's Christian nation. You don't look and we have two very, very different images of that.

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And again, I've been consistent. You go back,

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Doug and I have done two sweater vest dialogues on this subject. And what have I said in both of them?

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Sacralism is dangerous. I reject it. And the only way that you can ever have a situation where you could have something called

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Christian nationalism is in the post -millennial understanding of that time when the spirit of God moves and you have regeneration, you have this renewal taking place on a massive scale.

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We can see what it might look like in a real good church where you have serious dedication to the gospel.

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We aren't there. We are not there. You can, you can attend all you want, but we're not there.

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Given the division, given the stuff that's going on, we're not there right now. And so when he speaks of Scythian, a lot of people, you know,

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I don't know how many years it was before I went, I wonder why he mentioned the Scythian. Well. Glassy was not far from where there had been tremendous ethnic strife.

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In fact, you might you might just directly say there had been genocide, warfare.

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Scythians were warlike people. And so think about what the church looked like in Colossi, where you have the

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Scythians coming in and there would be a lot of people in that area that I'm not going to get close to someone like that.

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I'm not going to get close to someone like that because of the ethnic strife that had come before, but now we're all at the same table.

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Now we're all at the same table because this is a renewal in which there is no distinction between any of these things.

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Everyone in the body. Experiences this renewal, and without this renewal, you're not going to have peace.

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You're not going to have peace, you're not going to have philia, and Aristotle didn't know that, that Aristotle did not have access to the divine revelation.

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And history shows that. It was an error on many of those types of issues, and so that's the comment that I'd made, and that is the text that I had cited.

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And so. Eric Kahn responded to I respond to him, then he responded back.

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And I haven't responded to that yet because I want to do that on the program so that other people can be involved, because I think this is important,

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I I fear major divisions. More divisions, more fracturing.

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If this kind of stuff isn't dealt with straight up front. So he says, and I had the you can go back and find it still in the threads on Twitter, if you can find such things.

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Well, initially, when I responded. Someone had said to him, well, he'll never answer any of those questions, and Eric had said, and I found it.

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Quite unkind, I said, yeah, that's my experience with him as well. Now, the funny thing was, he had posted that, and then

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I wrote this lengthy response before I ever saw that, and so I responded to it and said, well, that was just disproven.

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You care to back that up? And all he did was respond with a animated thing from Tombstone, where one of Wyatt's compatriots there.

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Tapped his hat, tipped his hat or something like they didn't apologize for saying for agreeing with the guy who had represented me.

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But anyway. So. He says there's a lot to deal with here, but I'll start with this because it shows how inconsistent you are being.

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And I know you pride yourself on consistency, well. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument, and you cannot define the word truth without using categories of consistency.

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So Eric is accusing me of inconsistency. But let's see who's being consistent, who isn't.

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I find it highly problematic that you're interpreting Colossians 310 through 11 in the exact same way egalitarians do with the parallel in Galatians 328.

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There is neither Juno Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male or female, for you're all one in Christ Jesus. OK. Eric, you don't read well.

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You don't read well. Or you're reading with a lot of bigotry or bias or something. I don't know. I don't know.

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But that's one of the silliest things that ever been said to me by a fellow elder in a reformed church.

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Because anyone who's listened to me, maybe you don't. I don't know. It's a possibility. If you had read even the tweet that I had written with some fairness.

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If you listen to what I just said. You would know that, first of all,

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Galatians 328 is not a direct parallel because Colossians 3 is talking about the renewal.

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And the renewal that is forming us in the image of Christ, in the image of the one who created the new man is the specific language

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Paul just used. We just looked at this renewal. Is universal in the body of Christ.

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It does. I wasn't saying that it makes a male or female. I wasn't saying that a

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Scythian ceases to be a Scythian or a slave ceases to be a slave. I mean, Colossians, having said

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Paul, having said of the Church of Colossians. That this renewal is the same for bond or free in the next chapter, he's going to address slaves and masters.

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Now, the foundation of his speaking to slaves and masters and how they are to treat one another is their common renewal.

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And the whole point going back years ago, 2018, the whole point of emphasizing these things.

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Is the fact that the unity of the body of Christ. In dwellings, presence, spirit of God, and even in this context.

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This common renewal. We have the imputed righteousness of Christ. We all have the same standing before God.

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This is why there can't be superior ethnoid and inferior ethnoid or any of the rest of stuff.

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It's one righteousness that we have to stand before God. It's one spirit that's working within us. It's one purpose that God has in conforming us, the image of Christ, forming the body of Christ in the church.

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And so the point of Colossians three, I am. I find it highly problematic that you're interpreting

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Colossians 3, 10, 11 in the exact same way egalitarians do, baloney, baloney.

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I don't even know where, how did you come up with that? I'd love to see an explanation. Because I'm not.

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It just, if you make the assertion, back it up, back it up. In fact, if what you'd like, if you'd really like to, you want to come on the program, bring your

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Greek New Testament. I'll bring my Greek New Testament. Back it up or go, Oh, okay.

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I didn't understand. I haven't taken the time to really listen. I was unaware of how far back you've been dealing with issues like this.

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You know, something along those lines. Fine. But if you want to hold your ground, then

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Eric Conn dividing line, Greek New Testament, bring it, let's do it. Okay.

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I think we need to, because, because this is where division's taking place and you're in error.

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So bring the text. Let's do it. All right. Um, so I am not saying what egalitarians say when they misuse

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Galatians 3, and they use that to destroy the categories. I'm not saying Scythians cease being

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Scythians. I am saying that the unity that is to exist and the only unity that will ever produce any kind of meaningful

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Christian state is a unity that is spirit born as a result of the gospel.

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It cannot be enforced from outside. I reject Stephen Wolf's whole stuff there because that's where we differ.

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He is not a, he is not a presuppositionalist. He's not a theonomist. He's not a post -millennialist throw it all out.

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I don't, I reject it. It won't work. Won't ever happen. It's a, it's a pipe dream. Um, so I'm consistent at that point.

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Let me give an example. K -dub, Chris in, um, Lindale, Texas.

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Um, you know, it's not like we hang with each other all the time and stuff like that, but every time I go to Tom Buck's church, we get together and we've had a good relationship together and you know,

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Samuel say, and Kofi and all these brothers from all these brothers from another mother of different ethnicities.

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Why? What, what, and I, I especially, I think that a lot of these young guys that are getting into mono ethnic, my tribe stuff,

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I think if they would travel, of course, I'm not sure how long any of us are really gonna have freedom to be traveling.

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Um, but one thing that really helped me a lot was

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I think I started traveling overseas in 2003. So what is, what is that?

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21 years ago. And that first trip was down to Brazil and then 2005 over to London and then eventually over to Germany and then

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Keeve and South Africa and places like that to sit in Keeve European, a suburb to sit there.

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I remember distinctly to sit in a chapel, the first chapel service I sat in at the school there where I was going to be teaching and to listen to brothers and sisters in Christ singing the songs that I knew.

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I knew that I knew that the tunes didn't know the words. I knew the tunes, those wonderful Slavic voices that up that point in time, the only time

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I had heard singing like that was in movies about how evil Russia was. You know,

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I, I, I grew up in the cold war and I grew up in a nation where we had nuclear weapons aimed at these very people.

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And it didn't really bother me because they were the evil ones to get to go over there, to get to, um, recognize the global work of the spirit of God changes.

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It changes. Um, I've told the story before and I hope these young men are still listening.

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There've been two times in South Africa, one, two different churches, uh, where after a service and it was both times, it was three different, it was different guys because a couple of years apart, but three black

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African brothers, not Brown, black, um, came up to me after a service where I preached and they told me pretty much same story.

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They were in university. They were getting hit with all sorts of unbelief and things like that.

39:16

And they said the dividing line was a lifeline to us. That's how we kept our faith through university was listening to watch or watching, depending on context, the dividing line, the unity

39:34

I have with Chris, who's been attacked viciously, viciously by people who call themselves

39:40

Christians. Uh, because he made a statement in response to Eric Kahn, he said, racist won't be in heaven.

39:47

Now you could have an, if you want to interpret him as saying, Eric Kahn's not going to heaven,

39:52

I suppose you'd go there. What I understood him saying is all this kind of falsehood is going to be dealt with in the body before we get to heaven.

40:01

There are not going to be any racist. And so I, you know, you'd have to ask

40:06

Chris if he feels that Eric Kahn's not a Christian. I can't make that call in any way, shape, or form.

40:13

And I'm not trying to make that call here in any way, shape, or form, but the people that went after K -Dub, the nastiness, the vile racism because of his ethnicity, the people have gone after Samuel Sayed, people have gone after Kofi, um, it's straight up real biblical sin racism is what

40:42

I'm seeing. And what I'm saying is the unity that I have with those brothers in Ukraine with, you know, the last year that I traveled overseas,

40:58

I taught in Samara, Russia, Russians, real citizens of Russia, and they're my brothers and sisters in Christ.

41:10

And again, I, I stood there and preached from Philippians two, my dear friend,

41:18

Nick translating for a man. I miss that guy. I miss doing that stuff. Um, the unity that we have, even though it's they're

41:28

Russians, um, they're black

41:34

Africans, they're this, they're that, whatever. It doesn't stinking matter. It doesn't change anything.

41:44

There is a unity, a philia, a spiritual philia that goes far beyond anything the world can understand.

41:53

That's what the spirit of God's all about. That's what the gospel is all about. We're crying out loud. And that's what

42:01

I'm talking about. I'm not, I'm not doing the egalitarian thing.

42:08

I'm not saying that Scythians cease being Scythians. What I'm saying is their identity in Christ gives them unity with people of an

42:18

F another F NOS that might go. I could never have unity because of what happened in the past.

42:24

No, that's not the gospel. You can have unity and you must have unit because of what

42:35

Christ has done and because of what the very nature of the body of Christ is. Um, so he continues on.

42:45

They use it to erode the natural sexual distinction improperly. Of course, as I have argued many times,

42:53

Eric, I don't think you have defended the biblical view of human sexuality on multiple continents around the world.

42:59

Have you take the time to listen to me doing that before accusing me of this?

43:05

I don't think you did. You might want to think about doing that next time. Uh, you're using it to erode the natural ethnic distinction.

43:18

The natural ethnic distinction is that we're all sinners. The glorious truth of the gospel is that that natural ethnic distinction can be transcended by the spirit of God renewing us after the image of the one who created us.

43:32

That's what Colossians 3 says. So I don't know what you mean by erode the natural ethnic distinction.

43:41

The fact of the matter is, Eric, I have a closer relationship to K -dub or Samuel or Kofi because the spirit of God than I have to my fellow

43:55

Scotsman who right now in Scotland have decided to become wild eyed nut ball secularists.

44:06

Our natural ethnic relationship is irrelevant in light of the renewal spirit of God brings to all believers in Jesus Christ.

44:21

Okay. That's what I'm saying. And I would be stunned if you didn't agree.

44:29

You have to agree. You've got a Bible in your lap. There's no way around it.

44:36

As long as that Bible is the ultimate authority. We must remember that the same

44:42

Paul who says there's no distinction later goes on to tell slaves to obey their masters. Obviously Paul means something like spiritual equality and does not at all mean the abolition of all earthly differences.

44:55

Which defines which? How are these earthly differences supposed to exist within the church?

45:05

How do these earthly differences play out at the Lord's table? And again my point is until the church has unity what are we talking about trying to enforce something on the world is ridiculous.

45:22

All this crusading and all the rest of this stuff. So you know again if you want to try to substantiate the assertion you're making.

45:39

The program is open. You want to come on bring the Greek New Testament we'll do it but I think most people realize that you know what

45:52

I'm saying here is just basic fundamental Christian theology.

45:59

I'm not sure why you're not hearing it or misunderstanding it or whatever else it might be. My fear is it's external sources.

46:05

My fear is it's external sources. It's the current thing going on. And current things go away.

46:14

Current things go away. I want what

46:19

I'm saying now what I'm doing now to be valid 50 years from now 100 years to now when all sorts of new things have happened.

46:30

And the only way to do that is to be consistent with biblical theology because that will always remain true.

46:37

That will always be true. Couple other things here.

46:44

Oh OK. That was I should have said this. I just found what

46:51

I was looking for too many windows at home. I have three nice big screens. He's got one little one when

46:58

I'm on the road. Yeah.

47:04

Here here was actually the the whole back and forth and I probably spent too much time on this now.

47:12

So I probably shouldn't go through this. But I did ask him and I haven't gotten responses to this.

47:23

He's defending Aristotle and he said if so because I was saying are you assuming

47:29

Aristotle couldn't. He said. Are you assuming Aristotle couldn't make true observations about nature or politics because he wasn't regenerate.

47:37

Why. And I gave response and I said as I explained on the deal today

47:42

Aristotle was talking about small city states a very different context that we face today. Further what

47:47

I said was he lacked the vitally important reality of divine revelation as to man made in the image of God sin redemption regeneration etc.

47:54

As such he could not accurately speak to how unity amongst sinners could ever be obtained. Do you think a true analysis of man's condition could be derived outside a special revelation.

48:04

I haven't gotten an answer. Then he had said if so this is certainly not how the bulk of church fathers or reformers treated him.

48:13

That is Aristotle. And I'm like there's some weird stuff going on out there as far as the resourcement stuff goes.

48:24

You really ought to read what Luther said about Aristotle. But anyways. And of course when you read what Luther said a guy he just didn't read

48:30

Aristotle that's all but it's like OK read what he actually said. And read Calvin and classical philosophy for him too.

48:39

So I asked him Eric where did Ignatius for example make reference to Aristotle. No answer.

48:44

Clement no answer. Why did Tertullian say what does Jerusalem have to do with Athens. Do you really think the influx of Greek philosophy such as seen in Clement of Alexandria or origin was a positive development.

48:57

Are not the scriptures sufficient for the man of God. Where did Calvin for example direct us to Aristotle for insights into the human condition and the peace we seek in society.

49:07

No answers to my knowledge. If there have been answers I'd like to see where they are. But I've never seen. He had written

49:17

Why do you assume that the ancient unity of tribe and family is inherently oppositional to fidelity to Christ.

49:24

Why is it either or. And that's when I said because every time scripture speaks of the unity of the church it does so outside of the categories of tribe and family.

49:34

And that's when I quoted Colossians 3 10 through 11. And he had said certainly would be a radical position to take when compared to the great

49:42

Christian fathers of church history and the Apostle Paul. And what's weird here is I'm brought to read something from Andrew Torba and it sounds like we're reading the same person.

49:53

So we're having a lot of claims being made about church history. I'm a little sensitive to those.

50:02

You know having taught it for 34 years now a little sensitive when people start throwing stuff out as we'll see under targeted.

50:14

And I responded well as it is show that is not true. Policy of unity is that it is creative of the spirit renewing the elect not in tribes and families.

50:22

As a professor of church history I would be interested in what you think indicates some kind of predominance of a tribe and family viewpoint over against the elect from every nation viewpoint of scripture.

50:31

No answer again as far as I know. I'd like to see where those those answers those answers are.

50:41

Another fellow that I'm waiting for some information on because I'm sure there's much more to be said is the guy who is a part of Stone Choir.

50:55

Now I first ran across that name a number of months ago and I remember looking it up going

51:00

I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Something there was a red light going on.

51:12

Some didn't seem right but unfortunately so much of what's going on right now.

51:19

You have these people that at first they're not necessarily just going to come straight out and say here is my ultimate goal.

51:30

And that's what makes a lot of these movements dangerous. But evidently from what I've heard so far this

51:37

Corey Maylard. Is an excommunicated Missouri Synod Lutheran.

51:45

And. He's he's doing his own thing. You go to his

51:52

Twitter thing and it's. Exactly what you'd expect. Anti -Jew there's white supremacy there's mono ethnicity there's.

52:06

Just all sorts of really icky stuff. And so.

52:13

Someone again these red icons with blue eyes all over the place half the people

52:20

I've banned on Twitter had this stuff. Someone had responded to me and so he's responding and he specifically did.

52:29

Link me the stricter judgment awaits and men like James White are planning to stand before the throne with did

52:38

I not love those who murdered you. In their hands. Do not follow them or you will share in their fate so Corey Maylard is a heretic.

52:50

An excommunicated heretic appropriately so thank you Lutherans are doing the right thing there. Have you read the

53:00

New Testament. Have you read Paul have you read Romans nine ten eleven he said he was willing to be accursed.

53:11

If his brothers going to flash the Jews would come to know Jesus the spirit of God has never caused anyone to speak with hatred toward any ethnos the

53:31

Jews included and if you can't understand that you don't have a clue what the gospel is you are so far from it it's astonishing.

53:48

Well all of you in the audience who understand the gospel you're sitting there going this is amazing it is but why did

53:57

I run across this stuff before because I was seeing it I was seeing this stone car being referenced by reformed people and I'm going something's not something's not right here so Corey Mayer will tell you do not follow them or you will share in their fate and I say the exact same thing the exact same thing don't follow these people they will lead you to destruction because they don't know the gospel the gospel he certainly doesn't always says things like he says on his is his feed.

54:34

Andrew Torba head of gab you know back when Twitter and Facebook and everybody was just starting to bounce people right and left and everything else

54:45

I opened a gab account not knowing anything about Andrew Torba I think at the time almost nobody did and so you know then people started saying hey you ever heard of this guy said is that's weird oh that's okay that's strange what's weird is he responded to to the tweet

55:15

I can hear a train outside if you're at a

55:20

RV park the song of the KOA it's either the freeway which is only you know a little over that way or the train tracks or the airport that's how they get cheap land it's just it just becomes part of the natural sounds surrounding it's sort of fun anyway back to Andrew Torba I had this was the tweet and I can't

55:45

I don't have all it here says okay I've been mean to ask for a while what is this dark red with glowing blue eyes thing that it seems those of questionable views on ethnicity have adopted and so I've thrown that out there and he responded to that there's two there's two tweets here my this is

56:06

Andrew Torba my views on ethnicity are consistent with that of every major theologian church father and Christian thinker over the past 2 ,000 years your liberal egalitarian boomer view on this topic is the questionable outlier here okay if you want to completely destroy your credibility at high speed

56:32

I can't stop you but again I've been teaching this subject for most of your life

56:43

I don't know how old you are but I first taught this on the undergraduate level in 1990 and I can see through people who are pretending and you're pretending you may be a sharp guy but if you're a sharp guy then you know if you actually read church history with any level of accuracy or fairness that to make this kind of claim is silly what traditions are you talking about who are you talking

57:23

I mean given that you're responding to my my asking for information about of the red blue thing it's sort of hard to go what do you mean what do you think my liberal egalitarian boomer view it's just childish it's just what

57:46

I mean it's disrespectful but it doesn't what do you what do you mean egalitarian you mean you mean the fact that the elect is from every tribe tongue people a nation the revelation 5 thing is that egalitarianism

58:02

I don't know what's a boomer view I have no idea there was no single unified view amongst my generation so if you want to call us boomers fine irrelevant and childish it's hard to even interact with something like this liberal you mean as in classic liberalism

58:22

I mean do I have any reason to believe that Andrew Torba has a clue what

58:27

I believe about any of this no I don't so why is he going after me on Twitter I don't know got no idea

58:34

I mean other than he has the red background the blue eyes like okay then he continued on our beloved boomer pastors well that there's there's someone who you know

58:49

I was raised to respect my elders and and I did and even when

59:00

I had disagreements with them I didn't act like this it's it's not it's not the result of the work of the spirit

59:08

I can show you that our beloved boomer pastors need to get it through their heads I need to learn we are not subscribing to their false

59:18

God of post -war egalitarian liberalism okay hey you know

59:29

I'm sitting here arguing from Colossians 3 which has nothing to do with post -war egalitarian liberalism but seems to be a filter going on here in Andrew Torba's mind they can call us every name in the book and why and all they want about it but we've read what our

59:45

Christian fathers throughout history have said on these subjects really on post -war what did

59:52

Augustine write about post -war what did Tertullian say really hmm

01:00:02

I'm not getting the idea let me put this way if you're putting this stuff in a paper submitted to me as a church history professor you ain't gonna do too well in the grading we've read what our

01:00:17

Chris which ones which ones people who are serious about church history knows that there are fundamental differences on all sorts of issues to be found between Christendom and Augustine and Jerome and and Tertullian going before that and you've got the the

01:00:42

Donatus controversy in the months of this and and we're only in the early church are we talking medieval period are we talking

01:00:49

Gratian's Decretum are we talking about Aquinas are we going into the

01:00:54

Reformation who do you call fathers a person knows church history doesn't talk like this a person who's promoting some kind of movement today does we've read about our

01:01:12

Christian fathers throughout history have said in these subjects and it's not lining up with what our elders today are scolding us about maybe you're rebellious young men without wisdom and you're just simply looking for a reason to run off and do your own thing how do you know you're not how do you know that you're just shoot picking and choosing from the early church writings or medieval church to back up your own position how do you know that you know what the ultimate test that's gonna be about 20 years about 20 years and so you guys don't have that kind of patience you don't we're done being treated and chastised like children for believing exactly what every major Christian think or believe for thousands of years um okay that's just that's just childish that's just childish you really think that you're in agreement with every

01:02:18

Christian there was just this one view until you guys came along it's just so absurd you can't take it seriously

01:02:25

I mean talk about destroying your credibility back up guys oh you guys won't go fast enough you want to drive the truck right off the cliff you know

01:02:41

I'll jump out of the way but I'm not going over the cliff with you deal with it and stay out of our way how old are you 14 we'll fix the mess you left us and our children with for believing what you believe on these subjects all right well

01:03:07

I what do you even say it's it's hard to deal with hotheads it's hard to deal with people who are consumed with zeal but not according to knowledge and they you can you can warn them um guys you try to build a house on this foundation and it's all gonna come tumbling down and you're gonna be left wondering why and we're gonna be sitting here going we tried to tell you so you can you can either go you know look all of this stuff all of this

01:03:47

I understand once 2020 hit and we start realizing that entire governments are lying through their teeth to us what's happened is a lot of people are now going well

01:04:07

I'm gonna I'm gonna question everything I'm gonna throw it all out so I'm gonna become a flat earther it's just I'm just I'm gonna decide that you know that everything we've done in space isn't real or I'm gonna throw the

01:04:24

Holocaust out or I'm gonna what was this thing today now there's an there's a new

01:04:29

Watergate thing going on I I lived through that I felt horrible about it because I Richard Nixon sent me a letter when

01:04:37

I was like six I had written a letter they sent the White House I was is about Vietnam War and and man my parents framed it in the

01:04:46

Holy Nards I when Nixon was running against McGovern I made little signs and put him up on light poles in my neighborhood

01:04:55

Nixon Nixon he's our man McGovern belongs in a garbage can there's a deep argument for you but I was like nine or ten or something forget what year it was anyway you know so hey

01:05:05

I'd be perfectly happy if if we could rehabilitate Richard Nixon or something in the Watergates I don't like it the whole point is it's like let's just throw it all out there and the and the problem is yeah there's a lot of stuff that's worth throwing out but there has to be maturity and there has to be patience and these folks don't have that and I'm just sitting back saying to other folks okay you know these folks might get all get you all excited and everything but fact the matter is you go this direction and you're going to end up 10 years down the road coming back going wow we got abused we got we're disappointed we don't know what to believe anymore it all fell apart the foundations weren't there and what's going to happen is

01:06:00

Irvin's gonna be turning on everybody else and you know I don't want to see that happen I really don't so uh yeah

01:06:09

Andrew Torba and his I know all of church history and I believe all everybody in church history agrees with me uh what do you even say that it it's it's just silly it really

01:06:25

I don't know how anybody I don't know how you cannot see how silly it is but but there you go so yes

01:06:33

I'm winning friends and influencing people here but this is dangerous stuff it's really dangerous stuff and I was talking to a good friend who you all know um and and he had been he was talking about issues that he's facing with the division the church stuff like that and I was going you know

01:07:01

I'm I'm looking forward to the day when these divisions are gone but it's it's going to be in the future and I said

01:07:10

I've I've been saying for a long time I've never had anyone do anything other than just sort of go when

01:07:17

I say this but uh a unified discerning church is a blessing on any nation any nation that has a unified discerning church within it where the gospel is being clearly proclaimed you don't have all sorts of you know all the rainbow stoll priestesses in the liberal presbyterian and lutheran and episcopalian and methodist churches and baptist churches as well um they're all you know they're not there there's a unified grounded biblical witness that's a blessing to any nation right now the nations of the west are not under god's blessing nor should they be under god's judgment and so one of my constant thoughts if you just see me just looking off in the distance sometimes what

01:08:19

I'm thinking about is how do I live faithfully um in this context in this situation where I'm living in a nation under god's judgment that hates sin hates hates god's way loves rebellion no hate loves sins hates god's ways loves rebellion there you go um you know just the big middle finger extended door of the sky do your worst god that's where we are

01:09:00

I mean I I think about if what I fear is going to happen and fear in the sense of for my grandchildren children my grandchildren but if these two marxists puppets of the

01:09:15

Chinese government um steal the election and are elected to those high positions that's the end of the constitution it's the end of elections and the church will be in the will be will be where the

01:09:34

UK is right now I'm going way past it with our hair on fire and so how do you live faithfully how do you teach other people to live faithfully in that situation um those are not simple and easy questions anybody who comes up with simple easy answers it's not good scary it really is so important stuff uh

01:10:03

I would rather do nice light easy subjects but this is why the lord's given us this this opportunity to live in this day and to try to be faithful and to try to encourage people you know and I said well it wasn't the most encouraging program well let me point out that the tweets

01:10:28

I was reading weren't the most encouraging toward me but I have tried in responding to them to model how we need to police our own ranks and that the same commitments that we've had in this ministry from the beginning are the commitments we're maintaining now the only way to address any of this stuff is biblical

01:10:57

I mean if you want to argue church history fine I'm ready um but that's a secondary issue to the real reality of what's contained for us in God's divine revelation and the dividing line the name of this program goes back to the 1980s and the dividing line was between those who believe

01:11:32

God has spoken and his word is sufficient and those who do not that was the dividing line and guess what 40 almost 41 years like well that's august so yeah 41 years later guess what it's still the dividing line it's still the issue and I had lots of hair when we started and now

01:12:02

I don't and now I get called a boomer I've walked with the lord for over 50 years so call me what you want you take the time to read proverbs and you might stop using terminology like that that's to be that'd be my suggestion to you so anyway um

01:12:26

I'm I'm going to try to get together with the apologetic dog I haven't heard back from him yet well

01:12:33

I may have let me see if uh no

01:12:39

I haven't um was going to try to get back together where to go yeah

01:12:46

Jeremiah the apologetic dog he's the one had Jason Lyle on had a great little talk he wants to review the last three debates and so I said well only time

01:13:00

I can see that I'm gonna have time at all because tomorrow I'm having lunch with Alex the first debate guy in Albuquerque and then that's gonna extend my trip to pretty much the whole day so I'm not gonna have time to do anything tomorrow evening once I get to the location

01:13:17

I'll be at but I've got one more stop before I get home and so you know maybe we'll be able to do something then uh and we can sort of just tweet that out so there's something in place of a dividing line or something

01:13:32

I don't know and then once I get home uh it's going to be really tough we you know you got to empty all this out

01:13:40

Rich is going to be doing work in here um I've got another surgery like four days after I get home uh nothing super major just we just figured

01:13:51

I've had so many surgeries so far this year we've met our deductible it's just like go ahead and get it done uh there's not gonna be any more deductible charges it's not anything major and I I literally hope to be on bike the next day we'll we'll see

01:14:08

I may be silly about that but we'll try uh so that that week next week's gonna be ugly it's gonna be it's gonna be rough but we'll we'll do what we can to respond to any responses that come out things like that uh and uh and go on from there so um pray for traveling mercies pray for uh the ministry obviously doors closing you know here there and everywhere because we try to be consistent but um pray for us that we will continue to do that that would be the best thing to pray for us and uh and that I'll remember how oh oh drat uh

01:14:55

Rich I haven't seen any caching so um if things are working

01:15:04

I'll try to do this in just a few uh in just a matter of minutes okay

01:15:11

I told somebody that I'd do it I'll try to keep this really short I apologize uh greatly um but I I said that I needed to uh to do this uh it's been perfect okay good um

01:15:32

I I had dinner with a pastor and his wife two pastors two pastors and their wives uh in South Denver a couple nights ago and as I was sitting there chocolate knock sent me a link to the discussion that took place in Escondido um between Doug Wilson Jared Longshore and Chris Gordon um and what was that like three hours long or something like that um it was a pretty long one and so as I was driving back it was a very long drive back to the unit from where we had dinner

01:16:14

I started listening trying to listen to the to the program I listened to a lot of it and then and then he had said you need to listen to a specific point where you got mentioned and so like a a minute and or an hour and 55 minutes

01:16:30

I think it was into the interview uh Pastor Gordon made reference to and I listened to it and I was like that came out of nowhere um what's that about and so I I think

01:16:46

I mentioned on Twitter I was going to respond to it on the dividing line and so this is the dividing line and so I'm going along sorry about that and here's another responding to reformed guys stuff and so I put it on Twitter and evidently someone contacted him about it and so Jared and hopefully y 'all caught the debate um

01:17:10

I haven't even talked about the debate like I said I'll do that with Jeremiah on apologetic dog and um

01:17:17

I I really think what we're gonna do is we're gonna just put a tab somewhere on the website all my sermons on baptism all my debates on baptism anybody who has any questions anymore look dealt with everything there um you know link to my son -in -law's debate on baptism if you want the 1689 federalism view um anyway

01:17:40

I I tweeted that I was going to respond to it on the dividing line and Pastor Gordon wrote to me uh

01:17:47

I think yesterday evening and I responded once I got here today um and he he he said um you know he talked a little bit about what he said and he said but all that said

01:18:01

I owe you an apology for my approach and tone I seek your forgiveness I was way too aggressive and what

01:18:06

I said I wish I'd put it as a question to Doug and Jared I got caught in the moment if you know my personality you would understand that's no excuse but for that I seek your forgiveness it's bothered me okay so before I respond to what was it before I play it was said

01:18:20

I wanted to make sure you understood Pastor Gordon has very kindly contacted me apologized for what he feels was an inappropriate way of approaching it and so I will be brief in my response here uh

01:18:36

I think uh if I just hit this it's going to play yeah it looks like it is but I have to mute this because it'll echo and stuff like that so let's see how this works because I don't think

01:18:55

I'm missing anything right now I think the nations are streaming in well you're missing I think yeah

01:19:01

I think it's happening I think you're missing good governance of California yeah no I'm not missing good governance of the church right yeah so um

01:19:10

I but my point is is um I think I think post -millennialism is not honest because well let me just quote

01:19:19

James White here he's kind of fun um what is the greatest enemy

01:19:27

I could ever conceive of that needs to be crushed under the feet of Christ great question

01:19:36

James maybe you'll invite me on the dividing line so we can debate this um we can try to arrange it are you kidding you ready for the answer right the secular state now what about sin and death same thing no it's not the same thing that is not the same thing the nations

01:19:57

I want to remind you Doug are dropping the bucket yeah um what has happened to James White to come to that kind of conclusion like that that is really concerning to me that took my breath away um to say that and he said it with you um because I I watched that uh the thing that is alarming to me because that exactly proves the problem he is a great pessimist right now oh man got to find a way to fix this

01:20:25

I'm sorry I've got to go back overall everything

01:20:31

I just said um I've got to find a way to start using a headphone or earpiece or something because everything

01:20:43

I just said was really cool but now we're going to have to uh cut it out and start all over again um okay so we're going to cut out the silent part and pick up from here so how to I have to turn my microphone off to play stuff if I want to hear it or it echoes so then

01:21:06

I have to unmute it and then I've there's too many buttons I can't remember to do it all and we've got to find a way to fix that so anyway so let me see if I can remember what

01:21:17

I just said um what I was talking about I think it was as he said was on the program with Jared Longshore um death is the last enemy that will be put under Christ's according to first Corinthians chapter 15 sin is dealt with on the cross what

01:21:38

Jared and I were talking about were those things that are opposed to Christ's reign now he

01:21:46

Daniel chapter 7 he has been enthroned in heaven um and so he's reigning there the father's giving the nation inheritance and yet there is great conflict he is ruling and reigning over his enemies he's putting enemies under his feet so in the early church you had

01:22:08

Caesar Kaiser Kurios Jesus Kurios uh

01:22:14

Caesar is Lord Jesus um you have uh

01:22:19

Darwinism in the modern world a denial of Christ as creator today we have secularism and secularism is the fundamental denial of everything that Christ claims authority over everything it is a blanket denial of God as creator meaning man creating the image of God redemption family sexuality you name it and secularism is its negation and so what

01:23:02

I was saying to Jared and what I meant was this is the greatest most obvious it's not like it's not like the people who have engineered secularism don't know about Christ's claims this is purpose and so it is this utter negation and the crushing of that enemy under the feet of Christ will be a tremendous um benefit to the world glory to Christ that's what

01:23:35

I was talking about sin and salvation are not in that category sin and evil are not in that category sin and death death last enemy sin dealt with the cross that wasn't even on the table so he says

01:23:53

I don't know what's happened he's so pessimistic pessimistic about what about western culture

01:23:59

I don't believe there's any promise in scripture about the west is there have you been to the coliseum you know a lot of people in the early church all they had ever known for 700 years was

01:24:21

Rome that's what the city of God was all about so Rome falls it's all over that's how a lot of people think about the

01:24:29

United States Europe that falls it's all over no it's not so am

01:24:36

I pessimistic about the United States right now I am I am

01:24:41

I see no evidence that the middle finger has been de -extended in fact looking at Paris and waltz like wow full -on

01:24:53

Marxists oh talk about clown show so do

01:25:01

I think that it's absolutely possible that the United States could completely fall be taken over by the communist

01:25:09

Chinese yeah yeah would that be just judgment yeah what does that have to do with me being pessimistic that's not gonna that's not gonna last secularism can't last it will fall apart it will collapse and Christ's people will still be here he's gonna build his church so it's a massive confusion so negative about what

01:25:35

I'm absolutely positive Christ reigns his word is true he's going to he's going to glorify himself and what he does on earth it might take another 2 ,000 years to do it but I'm absolutely certain that he can do it he has the power so don't confuse you know you're looking way too narrow if you want to try to turn the

01:26:00

United States and Western culture into the standard of what you're supposed to be optimistic about so don't know what happened to me there you go so I appreciate

01:26:13

Pastor Gordon saying yeah I didn't handle that well but there's my response hopefully it clarifies things and now unfortunately poor rich has to take the file once he gets it and what is that oh okay he's gonna have to cut out that part and I don't know if there's any other way of doing this

01:26:43

I really don't that one wouldn't just massively complicate things it's maybe

01:26:50

I'm just too dumb to press all the buttons because I had someone I had someone ask me oh after the after the debate yesterday

01:26:59

I think it was Joshua who said wait a minute you're alone in there you're doing this all yourself and I'm like yeah he's like whoa

01:27:07

I couldn't I need to I need to I need a producer here yeah there's nobody else in here I'm I'm doing it all myself so anyhow all right