Social Justice Fruit, Platt Stepping Down?, Acts 29, Pro-Life Industry Fails, Huntington Beach

Classical Liberalism, Evangelicalism, and a Positive Vision

We're live now on the conversations that matter podcast. It is Friday afternoon is a hot Friday afternoon. We got like a heatwave coming through. I don't know what it is. It's we're in New York, but which you think it gets it starts to get a little cold this time of year in fact, I think I said that like a week or two ago and and nope, nope, it's a Decided to go back to some of the hottest days of the year.

Which is great. If you want to go to a waterfall, which I did the other day I just there's a waterfall about an hour from my house. I drove there I I got wet I went underneath it and just I just stayed there for a while.

It felt so good is there's nothing like that. That is that might be the best feeling. I'm not sure that might be the best feeling though. That God created when when there's a nice where there's a hot day and you have a nice waterfall.

But anyway enough about my appreciation for waterfalls. We got some Conversations that matter some serious things to talk about today and there's so many things to be honest with you I had a little bit of a difficult time even thinking through right before I decided to do this today.

What I was gonna talk about so I have a whole list. It's gonna be a news roundup. One of the things I just want to update everyone on. Personally, well, it's not just personal. It's It's bigger than that.

I suppose I've been doing a lot of research this week on classical liberalism and part of it is for I've been in the process of writing a book now for a while and It's I don't want to say I have a writer's block it's just that.

It's it's not coming quite as easily to me. It's it's been harder work for me and I and I think I know why because I want to write on a positive vision. It's easy to criticize right? Well easier to criticize to look at for example social justice and say well, that's wrong.

That's wrong. That's wrong, right? And and of course we've talked about on this podcast Alternatives what the Bible teaches on justice we've talked about American history a little bit and some of the assumptions that I think were formed through The biblical law being distilled through British common law and and so we we have some of this stuff.

But I have to organize all of that and figure out what is it? I really want to say about a positive vision. We we know 2020 was bad. We know social justice was bad and really what's happening right now are.

A lot of guys are writing their Books on what's the alternative and it needs to happen this this is a conversation that needs to take place. The fear I have I suppose is that in the Christian world in the reformed Christian world in particular There are some very firm lines.

You're not supposed to cross to write outside of so to draw outside of and. And I really clicked in my mind this week more than at any other time I've I've always known this I've since before even the social justice thing started I've known this about Christianity as far as the upper levels of evangelicalism.

That there it's not just that there was a woke thing like before the woke thing. There was like something else going on and and I what I see sometimes is people will they'll try to like figure out. What's wrong with evangelicalism, right?

What's wrong with Christianity? Well, it's it's it's a we're not post-millennial or we're not pre-millennial. We're we're not baptizing babies or we are baptizing babies or it's that pietism or it's right, right?

All these things get thrown around there. I've never been satisfied with any of that. I've always thought yeah that there's something else in the water. And I think I'm closer now to understanding what I was sensing so I've been studying classical liberalism and boy you start reading some books on classical liberalism and You just start recognizing the assumptions you grew up with you just start thinking.

Oh, yeah this is but but once you when once you like are Able to transcend a little bit your own Upbringing and and it's not I'm not saying my parents did this but but it's just everyone. Everyone was kind of raised in this classical liberal mindset that valued individual autonomy to some extent free markets were the mechanism for Alleviation of poverty, right?

Some of this stuff isn't actually all that bad. But but behind all of it was this. This belief that individual Liberty equals autonomy and it was a shift actually from the belief before that Liberty was something that was inculcated into people conditioned into people so that By tradition so that they could be good citizens.

They could take responsibility. And now it's more of just license to do what you want, right? And from that we've really created a whole mechanism of That's grown the government that's. It does actually a lot of the things social justice claims that it does like Promotes peace promotes democracy promotes diversity Promotes equality all of this stuff is part of classical liberalism to there are differences between that and social justice in that.

Mostly social justice is about trying to bring about a quality of outcome. Whereas classical liberalism wants equality of opportunity, but both are actually flawed if you really think about it I and I used to even say I probably said on this podcast before well like equal Quality of opportunity is not bad.

And I a few years ago. Actually, I stopped saying that I don't know if I said it on the podcast or not, but I stopped saying that I knew there was something wrong with that and now I'm understanding it more but We there's differences like inequality is probably one of the most fundamentally Human things like we all have differences between us and those differences mean something so you can't create in a system to adjust for all of those and get us back into a state of nature where we don't have these chains from society and from From you know other things keeping us down.

And so anyway, anyway, there's so much I could say and I'm rambling but It's fascinating and I will have a lot more to share with you. I don't know if you noticed but American Reformer published the piece that I did on I Think it's called conservative Nazi hunters.

If you want to look at American Reformer and someone asked me earlier this week John, where's the article you talked about on the podcast? But where's the article that's where it is. It's that American Reformer so you can go check that out create a little bit of a story yesterday, I suppose.

So anyway, um, hello everyone. Hello everyone violets with us a violet. How you doing? Abigail's with us. We got mark the craftsman with us. Mark is posting a lot of videos on Twitter about his craftsmanship.

They're very interesting. Anyway, it's good to see all of you here streaming Jonathan Grant and then we have for 199 on Von Breyhoff off go hard. I hope I'm saying that right. It's a nice rainy day here in northern, Indiana, Indiana.

Okay, so we have people streaming from all over the place. Corny wall is here or Connie I say corny Sorry when it's a little bitty font on the right side of my screen before I blow it up. So anyway, Connie Hello.

Good to see you. So so anyway, let's get into some of the stuff because there's just a lot of stuff to talk about it. I'm not gonna talk about classical liberalism. I just want to give you some news items.

But I just want to let everyone know who supports me who gives on patreon who prays for me. Wait, whatever you do people donate all of that. I appreciate and and that's part of what I've been doing with my time.

Acts 29 and the Normalization of LGBTQ Identity

So, um, so let's let's see, where do we want to start let's start. It's hard. It's hard to know. Let's start maybe with acts 29. Is that is that good? We'll start with acts 29. Okay, acts 29 is a ministry.

I think Mark Driscoll founded it now. Matt Chandler I think I don't know if he's still the president, but he was or is involved. And we've talked about it before. It's a it's a fairly. Sorry, I'm distracted.

Connie says I've been called corny before yeah, sorry about that I've been called a lot of things too. Anyway, acts 29 is this church planning ministry and. And they pretty much I'll say they've gone somewhat woke and if you go to their website right now There is this talk from August 21st 2023.

So not long ago walking with Jesus among our LGBTQ I a plus friends. I mean they even put the I a plus on there. It's just you know full inclusion here and there's like a six-minute video and the guy who wrote this I guess is Mike Sullivan who is a Pastor in Worcester, Massa.

Is that how you say it? Worcester? Worcester Worcester. I don't know Worcester. All right, I don't live in Massachusetts I don't know if I've been to Worcester. But anyway, Matt Worcester, Massachusetts and He is the pastor at Emmaus City Church and and so He this is on the act 29 website though.

This isn't his church website and I want to give you what preacher clips was it? Well, I don't know if it was woke creature clip someone Did a an Edit they just gave like a short clip. I want to just show this short clip to you.

This is what acts 29 is putting out there right now if you can believe it.

That phrase of walking with Jesus among our beloved LGBTQ Friends family and neighbors so that you were just saying there. There's often a sense of like either we're gonna separate ourselves or we're going to take Jesus to them.

How is it different at a practical level to consider walking with Jesus among them?

Yeah, I think a key thing is is there's so many beautiful ways in which God already knows their story, but we don't and so some of them are gonna have a lot of church hurt in terms of the ways that. Sadly they've been confronted or marginalized or ostracized and and so.

Being among them means do they see where we mourn with those who mourn? And in a way, are we trusting that the Holy Spirit will not only know how to listen. Well and be slow to speak as James tells us and quick to listen.

But also in the moments we may have the privilege to speak the gospel. We'll be able to connect to those areas where maybe they don't see Jesus. But he's still trying to intersect and bring healing in ways that only he can.

Yeah.

I gotta say snazzy style right this he is that's like the axe 29 Uniform that is the the the sort of young hip reformed uniform right there. You got the man bun. You got the beard you got. The the shirt sleeves rolled up to show the tattoos with the print on the t-shirt it's just it's a beautiful thing, but I the the content here is It man it seems perhaps innocuous because it's he's not saying homosexuality is good or bad or right or what he's saying is though that.

That we have that there has to be this posture of empathy to start off with that. They've been through some stuff if you're it on this spectrum and by the way, this isn't just homosexual. Remember this is they included all the letters, right?

If you are on one of those in one of those lifestyles behaviors you are you are to be treated in a sense differently because you've been through some different set of experiences that People need to have compassion on right and someone pointed out.

I think for test you put it out there. They did an edit video where they just substituted I don't think I have the clip that I don't think I played the clip. It was from later on in the video, but wherever he's talking about homosexual or LGBT, you know neighbors friends family.

They decided to put in white supremacy instead just to see if it worked. It was kind of funny because you hear this guy just tripping all over himself to Normalize white supremacy to say that you know, hey Christians.

Don't don't just ostracize these people. You want to really Understand where they're coming from and take things slow and realize they might be turned off by the church and you need to show them Basically that you're different than those other churches that they've heard about or been in and that kind of thing.

So this is just further illustration that acts 29 is compromised and We saw this what a week ago. We were looking at the Church of the Nazarene and how that was the first step. That was the initial thing for them to start going off the deep end to the point now that they're even questioning.

Hey, can we perform gay marriages in this church? I mean a church a pastor is disciplined for that in California, but there's a lot of backlash over it. How did they get there? Well, it started with this kind of stuff.

It started with the normalization of that sin and making like carving out a category for these sins this range of sins and Saying that you know, that's different than these other sins. There's so you you have like a hierarchy of sin there's like acceptable and unacceptable sins and.

And this becomes more of an accepted they would say oh, we don't accept it. But the thing is. They're catering to it. They're they're viewing it as uh a normal kind of of thing and and and those lifestyles those choices those identities those sin patterns, um.

Whatever you want to call them they. They They are all deserving of compassion somehow like you wouldn't say that about other sins. You wouldn't do that because you know that sin is not deserving of compassion.

You might look at some of the consequences of sin maybe but you wouldn't say that well that person's homosexual. Therefore uh, we must have compassion on them because they're going through a lot or they.

They're they deserve something from the church or they were turned off by the church and we have to rescue them from that or. Some kind of bending over for them to in ways you wouldn't for a liar. Let's say or a thief or an adulterer, you know, would you do that?

That's another one I think a good one to test it on would you do that with adulterers because that's a sexual sin, right? And and it's it's not it's a more of a uh, it's it's less unnatural than homosexuality and some of these other things.

So adultery, would you say you know what these adulterers they've been through a lot and they've been turned off from the church. And they've you know, that sounds ridiculous. No, they need to repent right?

So That's what's going on at acts 29. Uh, so it's the slow death I would say but uh, it could pick up pretty quick if they start allowing this stuff in now. Um, I wanted to show you all also another clip.

Thabiti Anyabwile, Political Activism, and the Voice of Cain

But before I do this is from uh, thabiti and abuile uh who some of you might remember thabiti and abuile he uh, he he was I suppose we talked about him more a few years ago, but. Um, he's the guy that when I was at southeastern came uh from he was a nine marks guy, I don't think he's with nine marks anymore, but he was and He came to my seminary and basically said that look.

If caring about social justice makes you a liberal then god himself is a liberal and he wants you to be a liberal. That was my first introduction to thabiti and abuile. I thought who is this guy telling young pastors to be liberals well, if you go to um this uh, this is for uh I don't know if I can say this guy's name.

I'm gonna try uh, teary um kenko teary kenko. He is running for u .s. Senate. In texas, okay. And I don't know that he has a lot of support yet. Maybe he will get some but he's running against ted cruz, right?

And so he puts this advertisement out there and this is what caught my attention. Uh, it says look if we want to change how washington works. We have to change the people we send here join me in making the u .s Senate younger less wealthy and more diverse.

Okay, so that's a good thing like if you're younger, I guess and to me i'm like Why is that? That I mean, I guess if you have politicians falling asleep like joe biden I could be appealing but younger in and of itself though is not a trait that is desirable necessarily.

Other than if you're too old you get senile and you can't do your job um less wealthy, uh, I mean I I don't know. I mean, I guess that could be an advantage. You're less likely to be part of the elite class if you're less wealthy, but more diverse there there you have the dei stuff.

That well, we're gonna have better perspectives better opinions that we have more diverse people, which is of course not true. So we we've talked about that before that's social justice stuff. Well I looked at the retweets on this.

And I thought I saw the bd, uh, tbd and abuela uh. Who uh reposted this said amen i'd say there are much needed changes. We will never have better policy ideas. We don't have men and women with better character and ideas so I guess better character more diversity means better character somehow, which is.

Uh that that's fairly uh new thinking but then I I just was curious. I went to uh, the facebook page uh for the aspiring, uh, the candidate for the senate, um kenko and. This is what he had. He said thankful for my church.

So I didn't realize how close the connection was thankful for my church Anacostia river church and my pastor tbd and abuela for his willingness and ability to speak on the issues of our time. From a biblical perspective today's sermon is a great example of this.

This was in 2020 in june uh, and so. Then you see him. This is later in 2020. Here. He is with a mask at a biden harris event. Uh, and he says and he's he's pictured here between joe biden. Uh, sorry, and yeah, I guess it's biden harris, but it's joe biden and jill biden, right?

So he's between both of them. Getting his picture taken. He says proud to have been part of this historic campaign. So he campaigned for them guys. He campaigned for joe biden. It's been a long road since photo one was taken in columbia, south carolina.

So he had been with them for a while while he was attending the bd and abuela's church. He was on the campaign working for the campaign for joe biden. And you have the endorsement of the bd and abuela that this is the guy who's got wisdom.

Think about this. He says i'm honored to have participated tonight as a president-elect closed his chapter in wilmington delaware by hashtag biden harris 2020. Okay, so so many of us warned about the political ramifications of the social justice movement.

I warned in what? 2019. That I think what I had heard in it was 2018 with the bd and abuela was going to happen that. That what he was doing was creating activists. He was telling pastors to go out there and be political activists and i'll tell you what at the time I was I was called all kinds of names.

I was uh, Not not that i'm playing the victim, but I it was doubted. It was very much in doubt that what I was saying was true and even if I had the quotes people wouldn't believe me that this was happening at places like Southeastern and and that's one of the things that I said at the time was this is going to produce in the pulpits.

Activists, well, it didn't just produce them in the pulpits. You have someone running challenging ted cruz's senate seat who was raised up to think politically in the bd and abuela's church. That's part of his influence.

He was uh on the campaign for joe biden at the bd and abuela's church joe biden the radical pro-abortion President the radical lg pro-lgbt qia plus president. And he's in good standing. He's a wise young man, apparently.

Uh, that's not wisdom. That's not wisdom at all. And and and this is the someone that was platformed by nine marks by southeastern by the gospel coalition, right? So This is where we are and I think it's it's good to show you.

This is the clip uh that uh the candidate for senate. Uh, terry, uh chenko, this is the clip that he. Or a clip from the sermon I should say that he recommended from the bd and abuela. All right ready?

Here it is.

Is greater than I can bear. Behold you have driven me today away from the ground and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and wanderer on the earth and whoever finds me will kill me.

Ain't that something? Did you get that? He just murdered his brother. And god now has given his judgment. And he's whining about his judgment. He's complaining the punishment is too much. He wants a light sentence.

He's whining that he's been driven from the face of god, but he wasn't living coram dayo before the face of god. He's worried that someone might do to him what he has just finished doing to abril. He's not repentant.

He's self-pitying. Listen to me if you listen to the conversations around racial injustice today, you will hear the voice of kane. You will hear people who oppose racial justice saying the remedy is way greater than I can bear.

How many times you hear that in a conversation about reparations? Oh, that's going to cost too much. You'll hear people say we we can't fix this problem or or that problem because it's it's too impractical.

On and on it goes. Beloved it's just the echo of kane's voice. It's just the echo of a brother refusing to care for. The murdered in the streets pitying himself. Worried about his losses. When he's standing knee-deep in blood-soaked ground.

See beloved we cannot have the perpetrators of injustice. Centering themselves in conversations about the redress of injustice. We can't have the the ones who perpetrate the crime sort of saying. Oh, ah, no, that's too much.

How about this? That's too much. No, no, they don't get to set those terms. We don't want anything in our heart that looks like a response like kane's.

So people in the chat are saying that he's got a nice beard. Well, he might he might have a nice beard. That's terrible guys, that's terrible that's. And that's what we got used to listening to in 2020, right?

This is from 2020. And that's the the sermon. Um. But I don't even know if I need to critique it. I mean, I think everyone who's listening to this podcast knows why that's wrong and and understands that it's wrong.

I mean, yeah, we're we're knee-deep in the blood-soaked ground of uh, murder. And we're just kane. We're just repeating the voice of kane if we say, you know what we can't pay for reparations because it's impractical.

We don't have the money. Oh the voice of kane right uh, this is who's this is the the kind of thing influencing people running as christians mind you for Public office from the social justice side the quote-unquote evangelical social justice side.

This is the direct product of it. This is what the gospel coalition has produced is this kind of thing. There's examples of it. This was I thought just a good one to share with you. Um, I forgo a lot of examples.

But this is one time. I thought you know what i'm gonna show you this is what's going on. Just one specific little example. All right. Uh last but not least I want to share with you. This is a video from david platt uh from mclean bible church and uh, he has some an announcement that he's making and I don't want to uh, I don't want to speculate and say.

Like I I know he's stepping down or anything like that. And I i'm wondering if I now put that in the title I might have if I did I probably shouldn't have uh. Hopefully I put a question mark there because I don't know.

But uh, someone sent this to me and I figured it is part of the news roundup. I'll just share with you What david platt is saying? Um about someone that he's uh raising up and this person that he's raising up and and Putting in a position of pastoral authority.

I guess more authority in the church is mike kelsey. Mike kelsey was the one if you remember who was on video. I could have played it, but we don't have time who basically said that he um It was something to the effect in in again 2020 that He had a problem like not thinking of wanting to kill white people right now torch them I think is the word he used that he wanted to torch white people.

So, you know great guy great guy. So here's. And and to my knowledge, here's one of the issues with it. I don't think he's I mean I haven't seen any public apologies. So it was a public video and there's no public apology that i'm aware of someone let me know if I haven't seen it and there was an apology.

But that guy is the one that david platt wants to put into a position of leadership. Here is david platt on the subject.

Lead pastor in our church. I am so excited about this for so many reasons most of all because Our elders and I believe this step will help our church grow In biblical health as we cultivate what we want to be a biblical plurality of leadership among us.

And as we grow in our efforts to reach people who are far from the church with the gospel. Mike has led on staff at nbc for 16 years his wife ashley for 18 years. They weren't even married when they started serving here and over all these years They have shown a deep love for and commitment to this church.

I don't think we need to play anymore. So, uh. The main thing I wanted to just say is that lead pastor. That's that's the lead pastor. That's the prominent role in the church. So if mike kelsey's stepping into that position, what does that mean for david platt?

That's the question I don't know but oftentimes when people set up their successor They make an announcement like this and then they end up leaving or stepping down or doing something else. So uh. That's what's going on at mclean.

Abortion, the Pro-Life Movement, and the Limits of Analogy

Okay, so. Well, we have a couple other things. I'm trying to remember. I don't even know if I wrote it down. I'm trying to remember what I wanted to talk about here um, let's talk about. I'll save this for the end because I have something, uh positive to share with you first though.

Um, Let's talk about this article. This is from the new york uh times the new york times and The title is abortions rose in most states this year new data shows now. Uh, a lot of people are talking about this.

I don't want to get into analyzing the data. We'll just accept it at face value. Not and I don't want to accept it without caution. I mean, it's new york times. So i'm always going to have some caution, but I don't think they have a reason to lie about this necessarily in fact if roe v if overturning roe Had diminished abortions.

They would be screaming to high heaven that women's rights are being violated, right? They don't really have an incentive to Tell you that. Oh, there's more abortions since roe v wade being overturned.

So here's. Uh, I don't even know exactly what to attribute this to but I did have a thought about it. And my thought was at the time I might have even shared it on here. That the issue with um overturning roe v wade and you know the the or I should say the The test from overturning roe v wade was going to be whether or not with this new.

With the chains off with the states able to regulate abortion at once again. If it was going to make a difference now in some states, i'm sure it did make a difference but It's overall. If you look at the entire country, it did not.

Apparently abortions went up. That's kind of crazy right because the law generally if you make something illegal it uh. It will I mean even prohibition is an example of this people often say. Oh, it didn't work.

Actually, it did it we focused on chicago where there was a lot of violence and maybe you could look at that and say Well, it didn't work there. But in overall alcohol consumption decreased and it's like anything you uh, make illegal it will decrease smoking.

I've lived in that in my own lifetime, uh, not wearing your seat belt, right? I mean, there's a lot of things like that. In this case though There was still many states in which it was legal and in this and in just about every state.

There was I think some kind of provision for. At least at some stage, um with some I think like oklahoma if i'm not mistaken. It's at a pretty early stage. Um, and of course in all states you can get you know.

You can order online abortifacients. So so that that hasn't been really Made illegal or taken care of but and they're not even taking that into account though in this new york times article. But i'm talking about uh, what we traditionally think of as abortion uh.

The states had the freedom, uh to do something about this and either not I guess not enough of them did and the ones I live in one that Went further in the other direction. They loosened whatever regulations were there and they became.

They poured money into trying to get people to come to new york to get their abortions. So they'd be like, you know come to new york and get away from home if you live in, you know indiana or wisconsin or somewhere where it's harder to get one, uh, texas and you can come to new york and uh,.

And there's federal funding to do it even and you get your abortion and it's like a vacation and that's. That I mean, I remember being in the airport. Was it last year and I saw an advertisement in the airport on the uh, uh The luggage retrieval belt right on there.

They had advertisements and there was one for get your abortion in new york. So they're trying to advertise to people flying to new york who traveled to new york frequently and saying here's a place you can come so, um, oh by the way, I should probably mention, um, hannah smith says that mike kelsey Publicly apologized, but it wasn't a real apologize.

I'm sorry if that sounded bad kind of apology. Okay, so we won't count that. So back to the abortion thing though I just I figured I needed to mention that because I didn't want to leave it out of the video.

In case he did apologize and I I wasn't uh reporting on that, uh accurately. Or at least giving you that information so This is a test and and the question I have is have we failed the test? Have we failed the test?

I don't mean you and me personally. I mean though as a country. Have we have we shown ourselves overall to be more evil than we thought because for years that was the big A excuse maybe for some states.

I I always thought just you know Be a man, right. If you're in a political position nullify it say no abortions here. The federal government wants to come in then they come in but you know try. Take a stand that i've always thought that and maybe it's easier said than done, right?

Maybe it's easy for you to say john. You're not in that position. I get it but now The federal government can't come in and and do any of that because. They they they it's uh, totally up to the states and we still haven't reduced the number of abortions uh.

Even after overturning roe v wade. You have to ask why that is and I'm sure there's a lot of more analysis that needs to be done. I'm sure some people are doing it. But uh that concerns me that that shows that the spiritual health the moral health of the country the country as a whole is not good.

Something is very wrong. And it means we're just as pro-abortion I suppose as we've ever been we just happen to have this hiccup where. This anomaly where we had a president for four years who appointed um supreme court justices that were and enough of them that they were able to tip the scales just a little bit but uh, man, if that hadn't have happened, we wouldn't we wouldn't even have um, roe v wade being overturned so um.

So I wanted to share that with you and then I wanted to use that as a springboard for this. This is just I guess speaking from the heart a little bit I thought about doing a show on this maybe someday I will but I I just need to mention it now.

Because it bothered me a little so I um, I saw a film the other night at my church. And by the way overall i'd say it's a good film and I I I really absolutely love the people. Who worked on this? Um, i've met ray comfort before i've met mark spence before multiple times mark spence.

And um, and they're so nice they have hearts for the lord and I love their stuff for the most part uh this particular Documentary. It was a documentary on um abortion. And their documentaries are more interview style and then a gospel presentation and this wasn't really an exception.

It was kind of the same thing. Um, but they'll give you some facts along the way and some little presentation and visuals and graphics and things like that. And this one they've done a few on abortion.

I think Uh this particular one. Was I think it's called what is it? And mark spence basically goes around and some of it's pretty creative. I mean he goes to a college campus and tries to get them to sign a petition for after birth abortions and all these.

A lot of these students are signing it. But he gives the basically the argument of you know, what is it? If you don't know what it is, then you shouldn't kill it, right? And it goes through sled size level of development environment degree of dependency.

These are the differences right between I think scott scott klusendorf came up with that the differences between who you are now and who? You were as an embryo and a fertilized embryo and so, um, so anyway.

It was it was overall good i'd say like 95 of the documentary was was really good and and I would I think it's it was basic. But it was good for people who don't understand this issue very well. But there is this five percent I want to talk about and it's not to pick on living waters at all.

It's because I love those guys again. And you know, I have a debate whether I should say this because there's so few good ministries out there. And they are one of the ones that I can unequivocally endorse and say they're a good ministry.

Um, but I think what it is is they have accepted some of the assumptions Of the broader pro-life movement and it pretty much everyone has i'm sure most of us listening right now to the podcast. Probably have accepted some of these things and what I mean by that is We just think about it this way we have had a problem in christianity with people like karen swallow prior for example trying to Take abortion the killing of human life murdering of human life.

And put that on the same plane as or or say that it's a pro-life issue along with Other issues like racism, right? Uh, ron sider tried to say smoking nuclear proliferation uh. Environmental concerns.