Today on the Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you would like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good morning. Welcome to The Dividing Line. It is 11 o 'clock on a

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Wednesday morning here in Phoenix, Arizona. It is the 26th of January and it's raining outside, which again is good for us here in Phoenix.

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And if you can hear me, that's actually probably a very major step forward, since we were not able to do this yesterday because, yeah, thanks for the sound effects, man, you know, it was a little bit better when you didn't have a microphone.

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Yeah, somebody was tearing stuff apart on the other side of the wall and so we were not able to get it untorn apart in time for the program, even an afternoon program yesterday.

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So here we are today. So two days in a row. I'm not sure that anyone can handle all of that, but we're going to do our best.

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And Rush has his stack of stuff, and I'm not sure what else we can call it, pile of stuff.

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Pile of stuff doesn't sound nearly as good as stack of stuff, actually. And especially in my office, where I have so many stacks of books these days,

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I need more shelves. And once I put up the next set of shelves, that's it. Has anyone figured out how to store books on the ceiling?

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I haven't. I'm looking around right now. That's the next place. That's really all that's left. And that's a good thing,

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I suppose, except half of them are heretical, which isn't really overly good. Tomorrow on the program, you need to make a note to join us tomorrow, 4 o 'clock

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Mountain Standard Time, that's 6 p .m. Eastern Standard Time, 3 p .m.

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Pacific Standard Time. And I never mention you people in the Central Time Zone, because nobody does, and you would be shocked if I did, and it would throw you off.

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So I just figure you can figure that out from there, where you are. Yes, I need taller walls, yeah, that would work.

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Tomorrow afternoon, we have a big announcement.

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Yes, it has to do with the conference and cruise this summer, the

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Alaska cruise, the gorgeous, beautiful, if you have never, remember when

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I got back from my first Alaska cruise? Those of you who've listened forever, and there are like four of you, but those of you who've listened forever, you will remember

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I tried to describe what it sounded like to be at Hubbard Glacier.

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And if you've never been to a glacier before, and this doesn't work, but it's the only way

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I can explain it, you know how when you put ice into your pop, into your soda, whatever you call it, you know people have different ways of referring to that, which

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I've always found odd, depending on where you live, but your soda pop, or your pop, or your soda, or whatever, and you hear the cracking, the popping of the ice as it enters into water, or milk, or soda pop, or whatever.

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Take that ice cube, make it 300 feet tall, and a few miles long, and then listen to it popping and cracking.

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It is the eeriest, most incredible, you won't hear that sound anywhere else other than next to a glacier.

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And this cruise, we're going to see more glaciers than, well we'll see more glaciers on this one cruise than I've seen on two

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Alaska cruises. We'll see more glaciers than I've seen on two Alaska cruises.

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I went on the one on the Mercury, beautiful ship, and then I went alone while writing a portion of scripture alone on the

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Volendam, and we went into Glacier Bay, and saw two large glaciers there, and you can see them from a distance, but what the ships like to do every once in a while is they like to get up fairly close to one.

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They don't get so close that if you had a major calving incident that the ship is in trouble or anything like that, but you can get close enough and you can just hear this eerie, massive, it's just hard to describe, it's wonderful, it really is.

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Great cruise coming up, and then there's going to be an extension of the cruise afterwards up to Denali National Park, and Mount McKinley, and oh, just awesome.

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You're not going to be able to touch an Alaskan cruise for what we have it for, just give it up.

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You're not going to be able to combine, you might be able to find some cheesy site someplace where you might be able to shave off a few dollars for an

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Alaskan cruise like this, but you could be alone on the boat. You're not going to be joining with myself and others in studying the scriptures and things like that on that cruise, but beforehand we will have a conference, and we have some big news tomorrow, big news tomorrow.

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You need to make a note because you want to be able to be there and say,

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I was there when the announcement was made about that.

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So, tomorrow, on the dividing line, I believe Michael Fallon is going to join me tomorrow, and we will have a major league announcement that I can guarantee you is going to cause anyone in the audience to go,

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I want to go, and you're just going to have to go. You're going to have to give in, you know your wife has wanted to go forever, and you're just going to have to give in, you're going to have to do it.

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After this announcement, it's all over. So that's how it goes. So tomorrow, make sure you'll be listening.

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Now, why wait until tomorrow? Because it builds the excitement.

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Everyone's going to be going, oh, I wonder, hey, you need to tune in too. And besides that, it's already tomorrow in Australia.

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So we can't. So tomorrow, on the dividing line, make sure to tune in. Hey, you know what?

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Before I get to, get back to the Herb Revis audio, I need to get, finish that up.

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I, on blogs, you know, you're supposed to do a little hat tip to the people who send you information and tell you about stuff and things like that, and I'm trying to remember to do things like that, but sometimes

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I forget. Anyway, hat tip to one of our channel regulars in Prasapaligion, Deo Valente, DV for short, asked me yesterday what

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I thought of Michael F. Bird's article, Incorporated Righteousness, a response to recent evangelical discussion concerning the imputation of Christ's righteousness and justification from the

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June 2004 Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. It's volume 47, number two, if you happen to be a librarian and hence need to know those things.

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And I went, that was the depth of my response was, huh, not familiar with it.

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And he was kind enough to, actually, I get the hat tip back from DV because I then taught him how to use, didn't teach him, but said, have you ever heard of OCR?

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You got a scanner, son? Yeah, what's OCR? Well, I had to tell you about OCR. It's a wonderful thing.

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It's been around since the 90s. And so I am holding in my hand that article by Michael F.

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Bird, Incorporated Righteousness, a response to recent evangelical discussion concerning the imputation of Christ's righteousness and justification.

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Now, there's a lot of things I'm going to want to be blogging about this. It's a very interesting article.

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Obviously, I don't agree with a number of the conclusions that the author comes to, but it's a very interesting article, well worth the read.

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There are a couple of references to the God who justifies. People keep asking me, has anyone tried to respond to the

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God who justifies and things like that? And I keep going, I haven't heard a word. Nothing at all, nobody wants to touch it.

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There are a couple of references to myself and to the book in this article, and I am downright thankful to be noted along with R .C.

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Sproul and John Piper as holding to the traditional viewpoint in regards to the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

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But that aside, what I found far more interesting than even the references to myself, this is

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June 2004, okay? What happened in July of 2004?

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Anyone remember what happened? The big thing that happened in my life on the blog in July and August of 2004 was, of course...

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Hello? I have no idea where that came from. I haven't a clue, but it was very pretty, very, very pretty.

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Actually, that's my... Nah, that didn't come from any of the channels, that's the problem.

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I don't know where that one came from, but we will instruct the computer to be nice.

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Anyway, I just turned that part of it off, but I can't turn the rest of it off. I'll let you know when I'm going to play the clip, so we'll just keep that down.

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Anyhow, it was the Mark Seifert situation. It was a situation at Southern Seminary. I had begun a response to Seifert's Christ Our Righteousness.

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I quoted him extensively, very fairly, just interacting with his statements about the imputed righteousness of Christ and active and passive obedience and things like that.

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And as you recall, Southern Seminary became unglued by the fact that I would dare to discuss these things in a public format.

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And we did a number of dividing lines on it, and so on and so forth. Well, here in the

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Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, if you've been following the blog, for example, you're aware of the fact that Guy Waters in Justification, the

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New Perspectives on Paul, that just came out from Presbyterian Reformed, a book recommended by Dr.

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Al Mohler, the head of Southern Seminary, likewise notes the exact same things that I noted about Mark Seifert and his position.

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Just not nearly as full a description, fairly quoting him extensively.

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I'm the only person that I know of that has been nearly as thorough in allowing

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Seifert to speak for himself. All these other things that I'm finding from other scholars are just brief little...

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And Seifert takes this viewpoint and nothing, but the conclusions are all the same.

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And Guy Waters comes to the same conclusion that I did. He reads

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J. Ligon Duncan, Guy Waters, John Piper, Gundry, they all read...

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Someone take care of that banned channel. They all read Seifert in the exact same way.

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But you don't see any statements being put out by Southern Seminary about them, but only when

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I reviewed it. Well, here, June 2004, this is the month before this all started. The month before this all started,

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Michael F. Bird refers to Mark Seifert.

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And guess what? He, once again, starts on page 257, even quotes the exact same sections that I did.

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Not nearly as extensively, doesn't interact with them. That's not really what you can do in an article of this size.

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But he comes to the exact same conclusions.

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And I'm just like... What? It's just frustrating.

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It's frustrating. Everybody read him the exact same way I did. Everybody did.

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And some people even notice, on the blog,

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I even quoted from Paul Owen, Alexander the Coppersmith, who ripped my head off for what

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I did in reviewing him, likewise affirming the exact same reading. You know,

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I guess it's just who it does... It's not what you say. It's not what you say. It's who says it.

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Political correctness in Christian theology. Hello! What an amazing thing that truly is.

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So, I'll be reviewing that, and that will be most interesting. And speaking of Paul Owen, I just happened to notice this morning.

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If you want to see where Reformed Catholicism goes, I said from the start, there is no way to put the two words together meaningfully.

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If you want to see where it goes, it's become very, very clear. You can see these people.

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One of the chief contributors to Reformed Catholicism just last week was saying he's working hard on becoming less

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Reformed. And he's constantly ripping on Reformed people and Reformed churches.

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And you expect that. You don't see any of these people any longer talking about the doctrines of grace, do you? No, you don't.

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You don't. They can't. They won't. But now, just today,

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Paul Owen puts a blog article up.

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And he's reading an excellent book by Anthony N.

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S. Lane, Justification by Faith in Catholic -Protestant Dialogue. And he includes one of the quotations.

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And let's see where we've heard this one before. Now, if equate the gospel with justification by faith alone means that that's all of the gospel, then, of course, no one believes that.

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And that would be a canard. But if to say that that defines the gospel, that it is a constituent element of the gospel, and that without it you don't have the gospel, well, how many times have we heard that debate?

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And with whom? Against Roman Catholics. That's why you don't define the dividing line on the basis of current movements or people or names.

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You define it biblically because that's the only thing that's not going to change over time. Just thought

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I'd mention that in passing. All right. Clips. Let's get to our clips here.

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I want to start off with one that I mentioned on the blog. And then we'll go to the Herb Rivas, the Dr. Rivas sermon, try to finish that up as quick as we can.

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I mentioned that I'm going to be responding to the full spectrum of this sermon.

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I may do it separately from the dividing line. I may do it as a special dividing line, something we can offer as a

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CD type situation, because this sermon is so representative of the conservative denial of the doctrines of grace.

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When I say conservative, I am referring to the people who are

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Bible believers, the people who believe in the inspiration of the scriptures, actually believe there's a right and a wrong, that type of a person.

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I'm referring specifically here to David Cloud. Now, David Cloud is an individual who is a

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King James only advocate. I have in the past said nice things about David Cloud because he was willing to take on Gail Ripplinger.

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He was one of the few King James only advocates who was willing to say, Folks, there's some stuff in this book that's not 16 ounces of the pound.

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Even though he would agree with her, as far as position goes, he was willing to criticize her, and of course, as a result, earned himself a few shots from Mrs.

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Ripplinger. However, starting a few years ago, he started addressing the issue of Calvinism, sort of like Dave Hunt.

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It wasn't something that I'm certain, that neither Dave Hunt nor David Cloud were closet

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Calvinists or had just not been aware of it or anything like that. They had held the positions they hold today for years, obviously, but they all of a sudden decided to get on the anti -Calvinism bandwagon.

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And given Cloud's controversial writings, he is always writing about something, taking on whatever is popular in evangelicalism today, we contacted him and said,

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Let's do a debate. We find these debates to be useful. In fact, when I was in Los Angeles Monday night, there were a number of people who commented on how big that debate was in Southern California, how it got conversation going.

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It prompted dialogue and discussion, and that's exactly how they're supposed, that's exactly what it's supposed to do.

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And so we had contacted him, and he, of course, declined. And we have continued to contact him.

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The more he says about Calvinism, the more we contact him and say, Why don't you have the courage of your convictions?

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If you're going to say that Calvinism is the enemy, if you're going to refer to me in that way as well, then

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I think that it's, since you travel, you speak, you're a public speaker, you write on controversial subjects, then how about having the courage of your conviction and stand up and answer some questions.

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Let me ask you questions. I'll answer any questions you want to ask. You want to ask about Matthew 23, 37,

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I'll answer. You want to ask about 2 Peter 3, 9, 1 Timothy 2, 4, bring it on.

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Let's do it. But the problem is, he doesn't want to have to answer the questions I'm going to ask. And so, some of you saw on the blog that he wrote me a note about a gross error, gross error alert that I made when

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I said, Why didn't he have a cow about Dave Hunt's attack on the

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King James Version, Acts 13, 48? Well, he didn't have a cow, but he did disagree with him, and so since he disagreed with him, then that was a gross error on my part.

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I haven't seen anything from David Cloud about Dave Hunt's new Acts 1 -15 were written in Hebrew and that this was somehow predicted in Dead Sea Scrolls and talked about by early church fathers and that we can have unnamed groups of scholars retranslating an unknown

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Hebrew text so as to come up with a new rendering that doesn't agree with the

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King James Version and doesn't preach Calvinism. I don't think that Mr. Cloud has addressed that particular issue yet.

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He may not be up to speed on it, but I made a gross error in saying he hadn't had a cow.

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Well, he didn't have a cow. It was about the calmest disagreement you could possibly have because it's in a review promoting the book, for crying out loud.

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If you're going to have a cow, you would say this book is worthless because this man doesn't know what he's talking about, but he didn't do that.

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So anyways, that email, which I included in its entirety on the blog yesterday, prompted me to throw his sermon against Calvinism, which is wayoflife .org

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right on the front. You can click on it. It's listed as the hot thing. Unfortunately, it plays in QuickTime and for some reason, my

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Apple QuickTime installation on my main unit is completely corrupted and it plays it twice.

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It's an echo thing. So somehow, I don't remember how I did it. But I managed to pull it down in another format. And so I want to play a section of David Cloud.

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What I did is I threw that sermon on my MP3 player. I took it to the airport with me when I flew over to LA. And so I just want to play one little section.

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I'm going to listen to the whole thing. We're going to respond to the whole thing eventually. But I just want to play one section here.

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And those of you who are long -time listeners, honestly, I bet you there's not a single person in my chat channel right now that has listened to more than 20 dividing lines in their lives that could not respond fully to what we're about to listen to.

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It is so common. It is so the normal way of things. But what you're going to hear is you're going to hear

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David Cloud, first of all, speak the truth about how you do exegesis. That context is king.

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You have to examine the context. Then we're going to hear him in his first example of how

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Calvinists ignore context, demonstrate how a person can know the truth.

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And yet, at the very same time, because of tradition, because of a deep dedication to tradition, completely overthrow what they just stated, completely act opposite to the principles they just laid down because they are a slave of tradition.

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And David Cloud, like Dave Hunt, is a slave of tradition. Now, that's one of the...

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Those are fighting words for an independent fundamentalist

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King James Only Baptist, because if there's anything we know about independent fundamentalist King James Only Baptists is they have no traditions.

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Right? But in reality, they have the strongest traditions of almost anyone.

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They just refuse to recognize them. And so, listen as Cloud preaches away on how you are not to ignore context and then listen as he does exactly exactly what he told us not to do.

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Here we go. Plain Scripture. There's error number three that I want to deal with tonight. And that is

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Calvinism isolates Scriptures and interprets Scripture by theology rather than by context.

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This is very important. How can I understand the Bible? Well, one thing you've got to learn to do, one thing we have to learn to do, is we have to learn to interpret the

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Bible by its context and not isolate any one

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Scripture out of its context. That's the way we understand the words of the

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Bible. You cannot put a definition on a Bible word and then make that fit every context.

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It won't do it. Now, so far, wouldn't we all agree? There's everyone in the audience going, amen, amen, amen.

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For now. You read the context and allow the context to determine the definition and the meaning of the passage.

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And yet, that's not what Calvinism does. Look with me at John 6 verse 44.

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John 6 verse 44. Actually, we've already seen some examples of this.

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But in John 6 verse 44 is another one commonly used by Calvinists.

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John 6 verse 44 No man can come to me except the

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Father which hath sent me draw him. See there?

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You can't be saved unless the Father draws you. Okay, fine.

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But look at John 12 verse 32. John 12 32.

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In John 12 verse 32, which is in the same Gospel of John as the other passage, Jesus said, and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, and what's that?

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The cross, I will draw all men unto me. I will draw all men unto me. So here he said he would draw all men.

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John 1 12. He's the light that lights every man. And so we don't isolate John 6 44 and build some theology by that verse standing alone.

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We build our theology by comparing Scripture with Scripture and we realize that Calvinism can't be right because it only deals with some

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Scriptures. And I'm sorry.

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But have you ever, I said everybody in channel is sitting there going, Hey! What?

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Didn't he just say? Did y 'all notice something? He didn't even finish John 6 44.

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He didn't even finish the sentence. Now does he know he's doing that?

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Was that purposeful on his part? Was he sitting there and he can look at the Greek text, if he even looks at the Greek text and go,

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Wow I only quoted the first half of a sentence and I guess really since I have studied this issue so closely for so many years,

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I should mention the rest of the sentence which says, and I will raise him up on the last day.

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And I should explain why it is my position is that the him that's raised up is different than the him who is drawn because that would be incumbent upon anyone who would actually seriously be suggesting that anyone should listen to what they have to say in the first place

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I should do that, but I just forgot to do that. And I should of course try to establish beyond simply stating that John 12 and John 6 happen to be in the same book of John that there's a completely different context to John chapter 12 than there is to John chapter 6.

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And I should explain if I'm going to make a connection what the connection between those two contexts is, because I just told everybody that you shouldn't simply ignore the context

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I should do all this stuff, but I'm not going to because I've got my tradition.

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That's exactly what you just heard. A slave of tradition slave of tradition who knows to do right but refuses to do so Why?

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Because tradition has become his ultimate authority and that's why

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I want to debate David Cloud. You're going oh you're just a debate monger. Listen his audience is enslaved to a tradition they think they believe in the inerrancy of scripture they think they believe in the inspiration of scripture but they have gagged scripture on the freedom of God in the gospel because of their tradition which they refuse to examine and for the vast majority of them listen for the vast majority of them they have never ever been challenged they don't even know it's there it is an act of love folks to walk up to a person who says

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I believe the bible and reach up and pull their tradition glasses off now they may not like it they might get angry with you why do you attack us?

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I'm not attacking you if you're wearing a pair of glasses that makes entire passages in the bible disappear when you're reading it then if I am concerned about the glory of God, the truth of God and your spiritual well being

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I will take your glasses off or at least invite you to do so and that's what a debate would do not just for David Cloud but for every one of those who would listen to it whichever side you're on whichever side you're on that's why we do these things it is a loving thing folks if we have a biblical world view it's a loving thing to challenge false teaching that is based upon the uncritical acceptance of tradition what you just listened to should make you sad it should make you sad here is a man who has invested his life in service to the

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Lord and yet because of an uncritical acceptance of a tradition within the context of saying

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I don't have any traditions he can absolutely destroy a passage like he just destroyed

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John 6 verse 44 that's not exegesis that is glowing eisegesis to the nth degree and why tra -dition tradition and he's not the only one that has it

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I promised we would get back and try to finish up the Herb Revis audio and so we're going to try to do that and so we've been listening to a lot of traditions a lot of traditions about invitations and things like that and we're just going to dive right back into it and because we have one caller online

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I don't know that I'm going to get to it today I'm going to do my best but I keep saying I need to get to this and I need to get to it so let's continue on with the anti -Calvinism sermon from Dr.

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Herb Revis down in Florida I have been convinced that when

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I take my Bible and I just read it not through the lens of a theological system that came together and ascended in the

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Netherlands in 1619 when I just study my Bible led by the

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Holy Spirit of God I'm convinced that my salvation is all of God God is sovereign

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I didn't get saved by accident I'm dead in trespasses and sin I'm doomed

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I didn't love Him I was going the wrong way I was running for Him He took the initiative

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Jesus must need to go through Samaria Paul and Silas got in that Philippian jail a divine appointment to win that Philippian jailer

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God sends Philip out to the desert because the Ethiopian eunuch is out there and it's His moment to get saved

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Jesus arrives at the tree at the same time that Zacchaeus is up the tree it's a divine appointment the

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Bible says nobody comes to the Lord unless they're drawn I can't get saved unless the Holy Ghost convicts me unless the

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Holy Spirit draws me the Holy Spirit through His conviction and power has the power to make the unwilling willing to convince me that I'm lost that Christ is the righteousness

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I need that judgment will be my lot unless I get saved and to draw me to Calvary it's just like Jonah confessed in the book of Jonah salvation is of the

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Lord that's why I don't believe I can manipulate people into getting saved I don't believe in sheep grace

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I don't believe I can get the mood right and the lights right I believe that salvation is the divine sovereign work of God Isn't that great?

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Isn't that great? See? I'm not the only one that can raise my voice I'm not the only one that can raise my voice

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All of that's great and I'm glad he believes that but there's a difference between saying you believe it and then consistently seeking to apply what you say you believe to the entirety of ministry including to the nature and function of the church and evangelism there's a difference

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I was in a church where on some Sundays that's what you'd hear

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I heard a sermon once when you can remember a sermon 20 years after it was given that was a great sermon and I heard a sermon delivered once on Isaiah chapter 6 that absolutely thrilled my soul it was biblical to its core it was incredible the holiness of God and God's power it was awesome and what eventually was key in my leaving that church and going to where I am now what is that thing?

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I have no idea where that's coming from I really don't I haven't a clue where that's coming from and it's very annoying and I don't know where it's coming from it's really bugging me we'll just have to live with the pretty sound effects for now so I can figure out what on earth is playing that silly sound anyway maybe it's

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RSS Reader I'm just thinking about that I wonder if RSS Reader wants to tell me there are new headlines

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I'm going to have to check that but what eventually ended up causing me to it was one of the factors of my leaving that church was like two weeks later the same pastor in the same pulpit preached a sermon that I'm sorry it's just it's not possible that the same person could preach the two sermons that I heard we are talking about complete contradiction complete contradiction between the two sermons what was said in the one was contradicted in the other and it's that inconsistency that causes confusion on the part of individuals it really does that's the problem what we started playing where I just paused it there was nothing in there that could not be said by the most ardent

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Calvinist but we continue on the other hand when I read my bible

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I read about another truth not just divine sovereignty but I read about and I realize the will has fallen but I still read about human responsibility and even though God is sovereign for instance in the life of a

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Christian as I read the subject of prayer God is sovereign but according to the bible the prayers of a

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Christian does have some effect on the outcome of events we're not puppets

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I like the way A .W. Tozer explained it the great writer of books like the knowledge of the holy and the pursuit of God he said divine sovereignty and human responsibility can be reconciled like this it's like getting on a big ocean liner when you get on that ocean liner you're confined to certain limitations but you can have the freedom to walk all over that boat you can go to the top, you can go to the bottom you can go to the front, you can go to the back but every day, inch by inch that boat is going to its required pre -foreordained destination and I believe

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God sovereignly lays out boundaries and He's in control and within the confines of His sovereign boundaries

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I have a responsibility to choose and the freedom to choose the bible says

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God commands men to repent the bible says men are to believe on the gospel of Jesus Christ the bible teaches that even though we are dead in trespasses and sin, under holy ghost conviction we are to receive

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Christ as Savior now here we've got human responsibility and we've got divine sovereignty and you say how can you reconcile those two truths

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I don't have to reconcile them now let me stop right there and point out and we've pointed this out in the previous sections where we've reviewed this particular sermon but it is so common this was in David Cloud's this is absolutely central to Dave Hunt's presentation these men despite sometimes even accurately defining certain elements of this, do not believe that an absolute sovereignty that is a sovereignty that isn't just simply saying well the ship is going to get there but you might be able to raise havoc on the ship by the time it gets there and of course

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I might point out if I'm perfectly free on that ship I can go down and drill a hole in the bottom and sink the ship before it gets there but the idea is well

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God's sovereignty is in the macro things the big ship is going to get to the big port but the little stuff me running around on the ship that's not a part of God's sovereignty well

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I obviously there's numerous all these objections if they would just simply hear what we're saying and accept what we're saying are not objections to what we're saying we believe men have wills we just believe that they are enslaved we believe that men make choices but we believe that because their nature is fallen the choices that are presented to them are choices that are always going to go the wrong direction we believe in human responsibility that because I freely choose what

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I do that I am accountable for that the problem is my nature is corrupt and because my nature is corrupt

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I'm always going to choose the wrong I'm still responsible for that we do not excuse a drunk who hits another car because he's drunk we don't say oh you don't have any responsibility as long as you're drunk you don't have any responsibility we get mad when people do that don't we of course we hold men accountable even when they corrupt their own nature so we believe in human responsibility we believe

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God is going to hold men accountable for acting upon the desires of their hearts people seem to think that well unless man has the same level of libertarian freedom that God has that God cannot judge righteously that takes us back to Romans chapter 9 of course but that's what people are asserting so if there would just be a serious attempt on the part of these individuals who take such a public stand against the doctrines of grace to understand what it is that we're actually saying they would have very little ground upon which to stand but that's why you don't have that kind of accurate representation we believe in human responsibility but as soon as you start saying

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God's sovereignty and human responsibility in the same breath and you equate them on the level of importance, ontology determination that's where you've made your mistake and I know that godly men have used the illustration but it's still a bad illustration of the two railroad tracks it has been rightly said that if railroad tracks ever meet the train crashes that's it and we can talk about optical illusions all we want but the problem is the right track and left track are equals and the freedom of the creator is not equal to the responsibility that he holds the creature to both may be true but some truths are greater truths than others monotheism is a significantly more basic and greater truth in the category of truths than any number of other lesser truths say truths regarding the theocratic nation of Israel or truths regarding eschatology the fact there's only one true god is more basic and foundational and if you try to make it the right railroad track and some minor little truth the left railroad track your train is not going to work very well and so this idea of making the two equal equating them to one another should cause all of us to go whoa wait a minute the freedom of god to be god is equal to the responsibility of man those are equal truths the one who created man and made man so he could even be responsible and gives the law and all the rest of the stuff those are equal truths

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I don't think so and that's what they're trying to in essence say and to preach it along those lines they're two equal truths and we can't put it all together

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I just believe what the bible says and as a result I don't believe what john 644 says and I don't believe what john 637 says and I'm going to use my tradition to beat these passages into a shape that no one will ever recognize but but I still believe all the bible says no you don't you may think you do but you really don't and you see

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I think they recognize that when people will sit down long enough to consider these things and when you can within the context of of study of the bible and a willingness to examine the bible when you can get people to just lay their prejudices aside just for a little while just for a little while and consider these things all of a sudden a person who really loves the bible is going to start going wow that's a

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I've never thought of that before and you see they don't want you thinking about that that's what's so scary they don't even want you to consider it they so lack confidence that their position can stand up man what is you know what's fascinating I just saw that being played by adobe edition do not ask me how it did that that's really weird we ought to time it because it's only doing it as long as adobe edition is up why would adobe edition be doing this anyone who knows anything about adobe edition and can tell me why it randomly plays a sound file of wind chimes just for I mean

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I was watching the timer on adobe edition when it did that that is really weird it's license is whacked you think so I wonder if that's it

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I wonder if that's it I wonder if it's that's interesting I'm going to have to do some inquiry about that well anyways it is a licensed edition anyway so we are going to have to contact them and say why do you do that why is it playing a sound anyways let's continue on with this because I believe my god is so big and so sovereign there are some things

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I will never understand this side of heaven and I heard a THD a doctor of theology stand in a bible college a couple of years ago and he said this he was retired he founded a seminary proficient in the great new testament a man who knows his theology and he stood up and he said guys

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I've been studying the doctrine of divine election for 50 years and I don't completely understand it and neither will you well that's precious

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I love anecdotal stories and if all that is meant to say is that we need to approach the doctrine of election with humility that's quite true no question about it however that is completely different than saying that we should deny the doctrine of election because we don't understand the doctrine of election or we should confess only a shadow of what the holy spirit has given to us in the word of god very very different things so you know what

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I do when I come to a verse of scripture that says no one comes unless they are drawn I preach it no one comes unless the holy ghost takes the initiative and draws them then when

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I come to a verse that says whosoever will may come I preach whosoever will may come they're both in the bible maybe you might want to look at the phrase whosoever in the original language and find out what it's actually saying both those doctrines that's what

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I believe now I've got a little word of exhortation for you tonight having said all that my first word of exhortation is to be balanced be balanced don't get off on one doctrine good grace how much can you talk about predestination you know again everything right in calling for balance how many times have regular listeners to this program heard me call for balance and if you for example were to listen right now if you were to go to prbc .org

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the website of the Phoenix Forum Baptist Church where I'm an elder I'm not the main one who preaches but I'm an elder there

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I do preach there I'll be preaching there at the end of this month actually end of February and if you were to listen to the sermons you would discover much to the chagrin of a few who have shown up always expecting that we're going to be on one of the five points that you only have to come to a reformed church one every five weeks because it's just going to be one of the five points each week you would discover that we understand balance and that in fact we don't preach a lot on predestination or election if it's there in the text we preach on it it's foundational to everything we believe but it is not the constant discussion but what he's talking about here is the fact that when works begin when people attempt to begin works people ask well what's your theology what do you believe and if you believe in the doctrines of grace that's going to come up and so you're going to be constantly challenged about the doctrines of grace and hence those areas where you are at disagreement or at loggerheads with the mainstream around you are going to be exaggerated in a way that they wouldn't be once the church is established and you're just simply doing what you need to do but areas of disagreement are always going to be exaggerated within the church there's no two ways about that and in fact that's something we need to be careful of that we don't diminish and simply ignore elements of God's truth simply because we have to put so much effort into areas that are under attack for example the deity of Christ was the central subject of discussion for quite some time during the

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Arian controversy was it not? Why? Because that was the current topic of debate and discussion and error that the church was facing at that particular point in time.

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Today we talk a lot about justification we have to because that is where the argument lies and so it's not that these individuals want to be imbalanced but because the fact that this is a truth being ignored within the mainstream then it seems that way in looking at the amount of time that is dedicated to that which is a controversy within the context of a particular church or group of people.

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We're going to get there Friday night and talk about predestination. I believe after about 9 weeks I'd be about right. Could we talk about something else?

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Whether it is Bible prophecy or prayer or faith you don't just get off on one doctrine that's not healthy.

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Be balanced. Because let me tell you this, when you get out of balance you'll go where you really are going to regret going.

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Look at the primitive Baptist. Man, when I went down and pastored my first church in South Georgia I'd never been confronted by the primitive

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Baptist, the hard shell Baptist they're called. Primitive Baptist have taken this doctrine of election and divine sovereignty to the extreme.

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Into what we call fatalism. Or maybe what we call hyper -Calvinism maybe?

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My first church had a woman named Edna. She died of cancer. She loved God. She was saved by the great mess.

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She was a saved born again Christian. I went to her mother who was a primitive Baptist and I said to her, Edna's in heaven.

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You know what her mom said to me? I hope so. Because you know what the primitive Baptist, and this is where you're heading if you become a hyper -Calvinist, the primitive

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Baptist say God has determined in eternity past who's going to get saved. There's no human responsibility in the equation for us to say that we are the elect is to presume.

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They say that you could cry out to God for salvation but if you're not the elect you're not going to get saved.

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And we will join Brother Revis in correcting hyper -Calvinism.

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But how many times you've heard people focus upon hyper -Calvinism as if that is an excuse to agree with balanced

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Calvinism. I thought balance was the key. So they say you'll never know whether or not you're the elect until you wake up in heaven or hell.

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Is that where you want to go? Be balanced. Second thing

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I would point out to you is don't be a man follower. Paul commended the

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Brians. He said I preach and you take what I preach and you search the Scriptures. Now let me be real bold here.

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I don't want to be a John MacArthurite. I love John MacArthur. I'm not going to be a John MacArthurite.

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I'm not going to be a John Piperite. I'm not going to be a Charles Stanleyite.

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I love David Jeremiah but I'm not going to be a David Jeremiahite. I'm going to study the

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Scriptures and seek to follow Christ. Thank God for these godly men. Don't be a man follower. Be a follower of the truth.

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The Word of God. And of course that cuts both directions. This is irrelevant to the issue of Calvinism.

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It's irrelevant to whether you believe in God's freedom and salvation of course. Do not be intimidated.

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Some of these folks will come up to you and they'll be spouting out all this Greek. Well you know the Greek says.

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Now the Greek says. Where have we heard that one before? Remember when Dave Hunt first came out with What Love Is This?

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And I started pointing out all the errors he had made when he decided that even though he doesn't use the language he was going to come up with the best translation of Acts 13 .48

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or what given means and enabled and so on and so forth. All the errors that he made.

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Remember what his response was? Elitist! Elitist! Hey if you're going to make claims as Pastor Revis didn't he in this very sermon grossly mess up Romans 9 based upon the

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Greek? It's good for the goose. It's good for the gander isn't it? Now that's a paraphrastic conjunction there in the

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Greek. There is no such thing. And so you say well I'm just poor ignorant person here. I can't. Let me explain something.

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I took two years of New Testament Greek.

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Four semesters. I remember every moment of it.

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It was like pulling teeth. I took two years. They're like dog years.

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Fourteen years I studied Greek. You know

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I learned some interesting things. I learned that Koine Greek, the Greek of the Greek New Testament is not the

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Greek spoken in Greece. It's not classical Greek. For many years in ancient times they couldn't figure out.

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They thought it was a holy ghost language. Then they discovered that, you know what Koine Greek was?

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Koine Greek was the Greek spoken by the common everyday man in the street.

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Isn't that interesting that that's what the New Testament is preserved in? Let me explain something to you.

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You do not have to have a knowledge of the Greek New Testament to understand the

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English Bible. That's quite true. However, when it comes to someone like Pastor Rivas standing before his people and telling them that this is in the middle voice, when it really isn't in the middle voice at least when they translate correctly.

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And when you stand there and yell WHOSOEVER! And in fact there is no word whosoever.

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Or you're reading into it the meaning of that term. Then you need to be able to make reference to the word of God in the original language that explains where the tradition that has become attached to the

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English text is incorrect. That's what you need to do.

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Well, we're almost done. We've only got what? We're at 42?

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Eight minutes of that left. So we'll be wrapping it up because we want to hear a little bit of the invitation on this one. But it'll only take us a few minutes to do.

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And we'll be back. Remember tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow the big announcement.

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You need to be here at 4 o 'clock Mountain Standard Time, 6 o 'clock Eastern Standard Time, 3 o 'clock

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Pacific Standard Time, and who knows when it is in the Central Time Zone. We'll see you then. God bless. We've been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at PO Box 37106,

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Phoenix, Arizona 85069. You can also find us on the World Wide Web at aomin .org,

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that's a -o -m -i -n dot o -r -g, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.