Mormonism Teaches That Jesus Isn't Enough

Apologia Utah

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In our, you know, manly, you know, worldly, you know, state, you know,

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God, Jesus Christ, they were able to make up the rest, reconcile, reconcile. That's my understanding, at least.

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So Grace, in your, I guess, in your mind, I guess Grace would start with you working everything you can do, and then

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God sort of carries you the rest of the way? I'd probably say it's us yoking ourselves with Jesus Christ.

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Okay. So it's us controlling everything in our power, being strengthened by Jesus Christ. After, you know, putting forth our effort,

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Christ makes everything right, so through His power. So you'd say sort of it's like a mutual working together, right?

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Exactly. See, I guess the reason I struggle with that is I obviously believe that there is a choice for us to have faith in God, this

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Bible speaks about that. But you have a passage like Ephesians 2, 8 through 9, it says, For by grace we have been saved through faith, this not of ourselves, lest anyone might boast.

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Right. Right. And so, I guess how would you reconcile that with that passage that says,

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For you're saved by grace after all you can do, whereas Ephesians says, You're saved by grace, not by works.

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Right? It's just sort of completely opposite, right? And I hope you know that, you know, whatever I say, I respect you.

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Like I think it's great. I would say the way I would reconcile is, you know,

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Christ has paid the price. He's died for us. He's paid for our sins. He's made it possible for us to be saved.

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That said, He loves us so much that He wants us to grow and to improve and to eventually be more like Him, right?

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So, you know, it's not us earning salvation, it's us learning how to become more like Jesus Christ.

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Let's see, difficulties, trials, afflictions in our lives and, you know, that allows us to grow and He's going to strengthen us through His grace to be able to overcome those, to be able to become more like Him.

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And like I've said, you know, after we do everything that we can, you know, after He's strengthened us, He's going to make everything better.

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Through that grace, it's kind of in faith, you know, you can't really see the way that it's going to happen.

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But I just believe, you know, we have a responsibility to grow and that's not to take away from the sacrifice that Christ gave for us, but more to honor it by becoming more like Him through the grace that He offers us, if that makes sense.

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So, if I may add something really quick, I kind of, like,

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I want to set up a frame, right, for how we Christians think about it, because I was never LDS, but most of my friends are

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LDS and are on missions right now, right? And so, a lot of the misconception is that we believe that you can have faith and then do whatever you want afterwards, right?

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Where there's a true faith and there's a false faith, right? So true faith into salvation, right, because it is by faith, means that we're born again as in, like,

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John chapter 3, right? You must be born again in order to enter the kingdom of God. So if God works in us, right, we are going to have fruit, right, as a result of God working in us, right?

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So it's kind of like what you described, but it's a different starting point. The starting point is us putting our trust in Christ and Christ working in us where we're born again.

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And so we're new creatures, as Paul describes it, right? So us becoming new creatures allows us to do those good works, but it's not us that does it.

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It's Christ working through us, right? And so what we contribute to our salvation is literally nothing, right?

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It's God working in us, right? And any good works that we do is a fruit of it, right?

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That's when in James chapter 2 it talks about faith without works is dead. That's kind of what it's talking about.

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That's what James is conveying is that your faith is useless if you haven't changed, right? There's a change that God does working in us.

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And so our concern is that what the LDS Church teaches about the gospel is a different gospel than what we read in the

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Bible, right? And so we're trying to get you to understand the distinction between salvation by faith alone and salvation by faith plus works.

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Because it is two different things, even though it sounds eerily similar, right? Yeah, I think so. I think it's awesome what you guys are doing.

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You know, I agree with a lot of things you're saying. There's some things I would say I don't agree with. Like which things, if you don't mind me asking?

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Because we obviously, we love our LDS neighbors. You guys are some of the nicest people I've ever interacted with. I've never had a

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Mormon come up to me and curse at me, swear at me. I've had a lot of other people do that. But I do appreciate that.

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But at the end of the day, I think understanding differences, we're able to sort of come to the truth quicker than just trying to find similarities.

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Because you know, the devil, the greatest deceiver, the best kind of lie is one that's 99 % truth, right? And so,

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I guess, what kind of things would you really take issue with, sort of what we said? Um, mainly just like my belief of what is the gospel of Jesus Christ, right?

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So in my understanding of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is, is faith, repentance unto baptism, a reception of the gift of the

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Holy Ghost, God, end to end. And like, I agree that like, faith is a principle of action.

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I love that scripture that you shared here, James 1 .5. You know, it's tomorrow works. And I guess

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I just believe that we have a responsibility. And it's not just Christ working through us, but Christ working with us to become what people like Jesus.

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And that's kind of a major distinction that I guess I picked up, at least what you've shared. Does that make sense?

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No, that makes sense. And we're obviously coming from different frameworks. We obviously believe that it's scripture alone, the 66 books of the

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Bible that is going to be authoritative. We believe that if any prophet comes through, we have this little track that we like to give out, sort of test the spirits.

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If there's any prophet that comes through, it should be tested by what the word of God says, right? Joseph Smith came forward, and we believe he taught a different gospel, a gospel that teaches you must be baptized in order to be saved.

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You must actually be baptized in the church. And then there are, everyone's going to be saved, but there's actually certain things you have to do to reach a different level of heaven, right?

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Whereas scripture says, you know, Romans 11, verse 6, for if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works.

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Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. And if we're saved by grace, right, why would we have to do those things that Joseph Smith taught or your church teaches?

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Why would we have to do those things when the Bible clearly says it's, you know, if it's by grace, it's no longer on the basis of works.

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Why would we have to do those things to sort of reach levels of heaven that, you know, I don't see in the Bible. But I think like,

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I'm just kind of talking in circles at this point. No, you seem pretty linear to me.

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Yeah, you do yourself too. But, you know, that's just, that's my understanding. Like I've said before, it's just like,

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Christ is paid in Christ. But because he loves us, he gives us an opportunity to grow and become great.

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And that's kind of the balance. And that's where the difference is. I feel like that we've found and that we keep coming back to is just that this person, you know, it's not just Christ graced me.

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It's through our works and not just Christ working through us, but us, you know, using our agency correctly to, you know, be strengthened by Christ and grow closer and become the people that God wants us to be.

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When you say he paid the price, do you believe that he paid the price for all the sins or only the sins that have been committed up to the point you believe?

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I believe that he died and suffered for every sin by every person that has ever or will ever come.

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Why? Why did he then say that there are going to be two paths at the end, one that leads to eternal life and the other that leads to eternal destruction?

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Because we're given agency. Well, I guess, what does it mean to pay for someone's sin and to make someone righteous yet for them to perish eternally?

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You know what I mean? I feel like paying for someone's sins doesn't make someone righteous if they don't accept the sacrifice that it is.

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That's an interesting point, right? And I see where you're coming from, but I just, I guess I don't see where that would be in the scripture, right?

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Because, you know, if I were to, for instance, if my friend right here were to be going on a ride and he didn't have a ticket, but I gave him that ticket, right, he's going, right?

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And so I guess, in what way would it be right for me to take that ticket away from him after I've already given it to him?

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Do you know what I mean? How could I pay for something and then just sort of kick him out? You know what I mean? Right. That's sort of where I'm coming from in scripture.

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I just feel like God isn't going to force anyone to be someone that they don't want to be. I totally agree with that.

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Yeah, yeah. That's kind of like where life is, right? You know, we're deciding what lives we want to live, what kind of people we want to become, and that dictates where we'll be after this life.

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And you kind of... Oh, sorry. Not to interrupt you, but this goes back to the framework we're starting off with.

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So there's this doctrine, right? Not to get too deep into what we're talking about here. There's this doctrine called total depravity, right?

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Total what? Total depravity. So to explain what it is, kind of, is that our starting point is

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Ephesians. We're born, as Ephesians 1 says, children of wrath, right? And so the only way for us to be reconciled to God is if God imprints that on us, right?

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And so it's not that God is choosing, right, or forcing us against a decision.

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But the only way that we can see God, because we're so sinful, so fleshly, right, is if God works in us, right?

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But there's something greater here that I really want to emphasize, because Christians debate on this all the time. You have the

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Calvinists, you have the Arminianists, right? It's that the foundation of what we're talking about is in God's words in the

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Bible, right? So to us, whenever we read the Bible, we come up with it, we see something totally different that's taught than what the

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LDS are teaching, right? And I don't say that to be mean, because I would love nothing more than all of us to, you know, sing

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Kumbaya together. Like, my best friends who are LDS, I have a heart for them, right? But it pains me to see that the truth of Scripture is not being represented, and it's distorted, right?

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And so we're just trying to communicate with you that to go into God's word, into the

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Bible, and really assess what the gospel is, what it teaches is something very different than what your parent was saying.

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Yeah, that starting point, as you were saying, is we are totally depraved for all of sin and fall short of the glory of God. You know, another one is

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Jeremiah 17, verse 9, for the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick.

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Who can understand it? Our focus should never be on the creature, which is what we are. We're not God. God is

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God. We are not. Sort of, he is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases. Sort of, there's a distinction, right? And because we are totally depraved, there has to be an act of regeneration.

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For we are all destined for wrath. We're children of wrath, Ephesians 1. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

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How can we come to God? So I totally agree with you. God's never going to make a child of wrath that doesn't want to come to him.

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For we are all children of wrath. That means we don't want to come to him. He's not going to make someone come to him that doesn't want to come to him.

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But what he can do is he can replace that heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, as Jeremiah 29 says, right?

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And that obviously changes you. And that is what's called regeneration. And that makes you want to freely come to him.

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And so agency, as much as people, I know it's spoken about a lot in the LDS church, but that language is sort of foreign to scripture.

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There's what's called the will of God and the will of man. God's will always triumphs. The will of man always leads to death.

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And so the way I always like to look at it is, God's never going to make you do something that you don't want to do.

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If you're going to do something, you're going to do it of your own will. And if you have a will to go to God and to believe in him, that's because he changed your heart in the first place.

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I think there is maybe some misunderstanding about that aspect of agency and what that looks like.

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I just turned to scripture and sort of see what it says about that. But that's kind of where we come from.

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At the end of the day, God has predestined, according to Ephesians 1, you know, those who will believe.

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But it's obviously done through their choice at the end of the day. But it's again through that regenerating aspect that, you know, we hold to.

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Does that make sense, I guess? Yeah, no. Probably what I'll say is, like, just to kind of close before I head out. Okay.

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I think you guys are doing a great thing. I think you guys are really well -versed. And it's inspiring to see people, like, do something like this.

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Like, be passionate about the gospel. And like, that brings genuine joy to my heart. To disagree with you. I mean, you've been really nice.

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Yeah, of course. But, you know, at least where I'm coming from, there's a lot you can speculate in the

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Bible and in different religions and beliefs. And I never want to take away from Sonex's belief.

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And I guess kind of what I always fall back on is, you know, is the Book of Mormon true?

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And, you know, I have received a spiritual witness that it is. I genuinely believe that it is.

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And that confirms to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I believe that he transcended that book. And that's kind of the, you know, framework for my testimony.

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You know, I know that Jesus Christ lives. I know he's my Savior. And a lot of that truth comes from the joint, you know, relationship of the

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Bible and the truth. So I really respect what you guys are doing. I'm grateful you're doing it.

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And I've loved this conversation and just kind of going back and forth about ideas. But at least that's where I come from, is, you know, that's my foundation.

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And that's kind of my belief. Do you believe you could be deceived on that? I don't believe that I have it.

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Do you believe you could be deceived, though? Honestly, no. Do you believe Jeremiah 17, 9, that says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick?

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Don't know. You don't know? I don't know. That's what we always point to when people say, my testimony tells me this is true, right?

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People can say their testimony tells them any religion is true. But at the end of the day, only one of them is true, right?

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And so I point to scripture where God has said, right, that our heart is deceitful above all things. Why would you trust how something makes you feel as the basis and foundation for its truth?

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There are a lot of people that feel certain ways about certain things, but that doesn't necessarily make it true, right?

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And so I would just encourage you to look to God's word as your foundation rather than how a book makes you feel at the end of the day.

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If you're going to test your testimony against anything, test it against God's word rather than maybe, you know, what

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Joseph Smith wrote. So for sure. I'm Jacob. Thanks for being so nice to us. Wilson. Nice meeting you.

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Your name was? Ethan. Ethan. Yeah. Okay. I appreciate you. Have a good night, Wilson. Good job, man.