Mormonism Fails the Test of Certainty

Apologia Utah

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00:00

I'm Garrett Garrett Taron.

00:02

Okay.

00:03

That's a really cool name.

00:04

I was gonna say Taron.

00:05

That's nice You guys go to the LDS your LDS though, okay gotcha to answer your question though I think the biggest difference is really like recognizing the cross as a symbol of Christianity It's really cool.

00:22

I'm like the atonement.

00:24

I guess not in like the LDS faith.

00:26

Okay I was just gonna say what would you say the cross represents in the Bible? well in the Bible like it represents like his crucifixion, you know, and just like is it atonement and like That way as well But I know in like our faith we like try and focus on like the life of the resurrection Or so that just the cross is a symbol interesting Okay, because I actually my grandmother she grew up Catholic and one thing that I always noticed whenever I'd go to mass with my grandma Because I'm not Catholic is they would have Jesus on a cross at every single one still suffering, right? And I actually think that that's maybe it seems like what you described is sort of what Roman Catholics do Which is where I would disagree is I they put an emphasis on Christ's death whereas I think what Protestants do which is what we would consider ourselves or reformed Baptist is we actually believe that Jesus is death burial and resurrection Right and what that pointed to in the empty tomb is actually what gives us hope Right that we have in the grace that we have through the tactic It's not that he just atone for our sins through his blood But it's also that he conquered death by raising himself from the dead so I would agree that there are some people specifically Roman Catholics who put too much emphasis on his Death on the cross and how that's kind of like it's kind of a little dreary that you know He's always bloody on the cross.

01:42

No, he rose from the dead.

01:43

He's he's king of the universe, right? So How would you say, you know, we're not LDS We would differ on a couple things.

01:51

So I think grace is a really cool topic I think a lot of people, you know like to talk about that I think maybe you know What would you say that grace means to you specifically or how would you say that grace is like? Communicated in the Bible or maybe even in your testimony What would you guys say about that? Because I I think that's like a that's super important topic to me And I'm curious what you guys think about that.

02:10

Yeah I just think that grace is like through Jesus Christ Like all of us are saved from spiritual death or the from physical death, you know Just like all of us have a chance to be able to live with God through that.

02:23

Okay.

02:24

Gotcha.

02:24

And what about you? What would you say? Okay, gotcha.

02:43

Yeah, that's really cool.

02:45

I love that the way you described that so like for me, right? like I grew up and I realized, you know, very quickly that I was I was not a good person right and One of my favorite books is actually the Romans Paul's letter the Romans It's I in my opinion the greatest letter ever written And in it Paul says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, right? And I think that that's that's like the starting point that I think some people miss when they go to grace because what's grace? Romans 11 verse 6 answers that question for us later in the letter For if it is by grace, it is no longer in the basis of works Otherwise grace would no longer be grace and that's the power of salvation happens through the grace of God not through You know our own works and I think that's like because you guys would you maybe would say that salvation happens with grace? Maybe after all you can do right like a combination of grace and works grace and works.

03:31

Okay.

03:31

Gotcha Are you gonna say? I Agree with that one.

03:43

So what would you say that I need to do to live with God forever? Like what what are the process? What is the steps that I need to take so I can be with God for all of eternity? Well, I know in our church like there's like five big beliefs, you know, yeah, it's just faith or Jesus Christ repentance baptism by immersion Receiving the Holy Ghost and just remaining faithful to the end So, how would you say that because I'm quite familiar There's something that's called being sealed in the temple, right when you get married How would you say that relates to those five things? Would you say it's part of those five things or maybe something different? No, you guys are good Okay, but would you say that that's something maybe because I know there's three different levels right the terrestrial the celestial and the celestial Would you not not a time again? That's pretty much it No, but so would you I do know that being sealed in the temple is one of those things that separates the second from the third level Yeah, yeah, okay But but you would say though that baptism is essential to separate yourself from the first and then the second and third levels, right Yeah, I being that I wasn't baptized in in the temple, right? I therefore can only be in the first level according to your your church's teaching, correct? Would that be correct and it's okay if you say that I'm not gonna be a fan Okay, gotcha.

05:21

And so I guess like the question I always ask right is like what is the Bible's teaching on grace? I always I guess I struggle with that right because you guys you believe in the Bible you believe I know the King James Version is your preferred translation But Ephesians 2 verses 8 through 9 says for if it is by grace, it is no or sorry That's Romans 11 6 for by grace.

05:38

We haven't saved through faith.

05:39

This is not of ourselves It is a gift of God not a result of works lest anyone should boast right? And so I guess Based on that.

05:47

It doesn't seem like there would be any reason for us to you know, obviously works is important But in regards to us being made right with God Baptism is nowhere in the Bible is listed as an essential work Neither is I guess being sealed in the temple and neither is I obviously would agree that repentance is important But the essence is on grace not grace plus works, right? So I guess how would you respond to maybe like a verse like that that seems to so clearly teach that it's by grace Lest anyone should boast.

06:15

It's not a result of works, right? Do you see how maybe that would seem confusing to at least someone like me, right? Right? Okay How would you how would you respond to maybe something that seems to I guess be a little different there? Well, I mean we also believe that like during like the apostasy, you know Just like during the dark ages that a lot of things were done to the Bible That's why we have thousands of different translations.

06:37

Yeah, how we use the cage.

06:38

Okay version, you know you guys use We have many different preferred transitions, I'm okay.

06:45

I'm okay with I'm okay with the cage a B Oh, yeah, we'll use a cage a B2 but that's an interesting.

06:49

I don't know much about the apostasy What what I guess is there in that that's sort of like an important thing to know about it Just kind of believe that like there was a little bit of truth that was lost from the Bible just during that time Just with people translating it in many different languages and making their own interpretations.

07:06

Okay Well, we believe that like everything that was like lost from the translations or maybe interpreted differently So you can take a lot of different scriptures and interpret them differently.

07:27

That's why we have a lot of religions And we believe that we have the Book of Mormon to help Clarify.

07:34

Okay Interesting.

07:37

Yeah, so I I like to use Catholics as a comparison because if my family has been a lot of members are Catholic Yeah, it is very very common.

07:45

Yeah, so they like to point out they were like, you know Because we believe in what's called sola scriptura that scripture is the highest and only infallible authority for all people, right? And they like to point out be like, well you believe in sola scriptura.

07:58

That's why there's many different denominations Well, I think I guess the same thing could be said to right but with the LDS Church There's been hundreds of splinter groups.

08:05

You have the FLDS and you have many different others Why would you think that that is the case? I guess, you know, I guess, you know We have we have obviously I guess I would define maybe these different denominations differently But I guess your church would have what I would call different denominations, too And like that came from like a Confucian descendants instead of like now priesthood authority Everyone's gonna have their own interpretation of everything in the end.

08:35

So and is that a good thing? I mean, I would say it's good to have different viewpoints, you know But of the Bible I guess of the divine Word of God, right? Would you say it's good to have? different Interpretations that lead to splinter groups.

08:48

I would say no, it's better to be unified.

08:51

Okay, and I think this is a really important question How would you say unity happens according to what Jesus said? I just think following his example.

09:03

Okay, just like the teachings are pretty clear Yeah, I got you.

09:08

I know.

09:09

Yeah, I and I would agree but we would again think we would both say they're clear But we would obviously differ right and so, you know What I always would point out right is like it should be based in the truth of God's Word rather than The truth in the Word of Man right or what a man says right because you have many different prophets But yeah, so I guess in regards to you know different denominations My what I would say and be like the reason there are so many different nominations is because people have veered From the the authority of God's Word, right, you know, if you have Jehovah's Witnesses for an example I'm sure a lot of people confuse Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons all the time.

09:46

I'm sure that happens.

09:47

I'm sorry about that But they're not they're not the same I'm quite aware of that you guys have name tags they don't Know that's not that there's more than that obviously Yeah One thing they do right is they they actually add to right they have their own special translations Though, you know and they also have what's called the Watchtower magazine that they release and those are the continual teachings of the Prophet Right and you have obviously many failed prophecies But they're actually adding to the Bible rather than keeping to the one Bible and you have a lot of you know Other groups that will add to the Bible and I I think when we when we look at you know What Jesus said right he you know pointed out that his word is what's true, right? So I Guess he also pointed out that you will know them by their fruits, right? Do you are you familiar I guess with when Jesus talks about that? Yeah How would you know if something is good fruit or bad fruit? When it comes to because we're talking about I guess different denominations different splinter groups.

10:47

What is truth, right? How do you know what good fruit is and what bad fruit is, right? Yeah Or do you have any thoughts I just think they saw just like a spear We're promised Okay, how do you figure out if it's the Spirit of God or if it's the spirit of the enemy Like God necessarily like needs you to choose one because they're both good So like I guess just decisions in your life about whether I move to Missouri or Arkansas, right? Yeah, I personally believe to you like God's gonna warn you if you're gonna do anything wrong, you know like you have the knowledge and the teachings within the Bible and the Book of Mormon that guided Teach us how to live and so with that built-in knowledge that we've learned, you know And that we've studied that helps dictate our lives and you know produce good fruit instead of bad fruit Okay, but what would bad fruit look like? I Think we can see it all the time in our lives, you know people trying to break other people down just Not being good to each other.

12:22

We're all God's children and we should just strive to love each other Okay, I gotcha.

12:27

Yeah, and so I think that's a really good point, right? and I think we might differ I guess on how that works out and Like you you pointed out I guess how it makes you feel Would you say or would you say like whether it felt confirmed in your testimony? Is that what you meant? I'm sort of what good is See I guess I struggle with that because Jeremiah 17 9 says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick who can understand it Right, and I would impress on why would we trust our heart right if it's deceitful above all things, right? And so how would again if the heart of the heart of human humanity, right is deceitful and desperately sick You know, is it is it because you said if it brings about good or if it makes you feel good that's how we determine if it's the Spirit of God versus the spirit of That's a great question and I think many people might answer it if it differently, right I think you obviously would dancer different from me I would say that the way God speaks to me is through his word, right? Because Hebrews 4 verse 12 says the Word of God is living and active Sharper than any double-edged sword piercing the vision of Zoan spirit discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

13:45

That's my heart That's my you know thoughts.

13:48

That's how God speaks to me is through his living word It's not a dead word.

13:52

And so we would maybe disagree on I guess new revelation and new prophethood But you you please answer that Like I definitely don't want to be but like so I do think that I don't know if when I talk to LDS people before they they perceive Christians as clean Like I was having a dead God month and like like he said like we think the Bible's alive We think it's God's everlasting word, but also I do think that God They say speaks to us in little ways throughout the day or like like Harriet Tubman I think she got vision so she could like show slaves how to escape to freedom So I don't think that God's just silent But what I know is the God is consistent and he's the same he's always been the same So I know that if he said something he's never gonna go back.

14:30

See it's like if you're like, oh My name's Taryn and then all of a sudden, you know, my name's Sally or whatever I'm gonna be like what you were lying at some part, you know that God said she's not a man So he doesn't lie.

14:40

Yeah, and so yeah, I do think that he speaks us to us through his word but I think that He can speak to us any other way too but we always have to measure it up like this like the canon is like the measuring world to be like Are you telling me to like? murder puppies in the street No, that's a good that's a good point and I would agree with that in the sense that like right So la scriptura just teaches that it's the only It's the highest rule of faith and it's the only infallible rule of faith, right? God might be able to speak to me throughout my day by Providentially working for me to feel convicted about how I spoke to my wife in the morning and I might go home and be like I'm really sorry.

15:14

The Holy Spirit convicted me that's God speaking to me but not in an infallible way and not in a soul authoritative way because if my If I felt convicted to go home and beat my wife I'm sure that that's that's not something I should ever interpret as infallible or authoritative Because it should always be seen through the lens of God's Word.

15:30

So anything Amen Go ahead No, you're good, would you say that God can reveal anything that is authoritative outside of his Bible That is infallible That cannot be wrong that cannot contradict.

15:59

Can God lie? I guess Okay.

16:02

Okay.

16:02

All right, so we're agreed there believe that he gives us ongoing revelation Okay, would you say that that revelation can ever contradict his previous revelation? I would say it builds on it.

16:14

It never contradicts.

16:15

Okay, what if it does? What does that mean? I Just don't think it would ever contradict.

16:21

I guess so like for instance, let me give an example of Muslims, right? I studied Islam when I was at school and one thing I like loved having conversations with them The one thing they would always say I'd be like, hey, do you believe in Jesus? They're like, yes, I believe in Jesus, right? But they would also say that he was just a prophet and he wasn't a God and he actually didn't die on a cross Right, but it was made to appear to them.

16:42

So that's what the Quran says, right? And so that's obviously something that's Right, not, you know, that's contradictory to what God has revealed Right God died on the cross you and I both would believe that he left an empty tomb and he rose from the dead, right? And that's where we would be in line But that's that's something that contradicted his previous revelation and with something like that you would say that's wrong, right? No No No, but so you're saying the Muslim is correct that Jesus didn't die on the cross well Because they can't both be correct, right? This is the whole like argument, you know with like different Bibles like different things, you know Well just with the different translations and the different people that have touched it, you know So, I mean the Bible used to just be in straight line and that was like technically the purest form You know you so you think it was originally written in Latin? Well, no, it was like held in line for a while though the Vulgate.

17:46

Yeah for about a thousand years It was the Roman Catholic Church However, you had the Eastern Church that was actually translating it in Greek and they actually on the eastern side of the church Were passing things on in Syriac, but also Greek but if you look at the Bible translation I don't know if you looked into this that much but the Bible has more Manuscript at a station than any other book of literature that we can attest to it Is it is more sure to be authoritative than any other thing that was written during that time.

18:12

There's about five thousand eight hundred Greek manuscripts Thousands and thousands of other languages more which is you know, I think right and so that she was asking I guess Can you think of anything where you would say it was maybe mistranslated? Or I guess mistransmitted I Mean like not anything specifics coming to my head right now.

18:33

No, you're good.

18:34

Yeah Yeah, and I think that's like an important thing, right? Like I trust to believe that God has preserved his word What did Jesus say right the the you know, the the grass withers the flower fades But the Word of our God stands forever, right and I would say that that I'm gonna trust Jesus's Word over I guess skepticism of the Bible because I think it's atheists and actually a lot of atheists in the 1700s that brought about skepticism for the transmission of God's Word and He's actually proven it true with all of the testing that we've brought about in the last three to five hundred years that have gone through about so Would you say that like? Jesus would you say? Yeah, so Jesus obviously wouldn't contradict his word and he would preserve his word right and so I look to what Jesus spoke First in Isaiah, and then he reiterated it in the New Testament that the flower You know the grass withers the flower fades, but the Word of our God stands forever, right? And I'd look to that as my authority for its transmission I would encourage you to look at it because I think that that's like when I struggled early on in my faith Specifically with my testimony.

19:39

I could not stop struggling with that one question.

19:42

How do I know that what we have is the true Bible? How do we I know that it's been translated.

19:45

So I actually I looked at the manuscripts.

19:47

I prayed about it I asked God to show it to me and it was shown to me through the actual facts and evidences and God Proved that his word is sure and that it has been transmitted correctly for the past 2,000 years, but Yeah, I don't know.

20:00

What do you what do you think about? I guess the way Jesus speaks about his word being preserved Would you say that? How would you maybe I guess interpret that in light of maybe what your prophets have told you about it? Maybe you're not being translated correctly Yeah, we believe that the word was like preserved through like revelation to Joseph Smith when he restored the church and Given the revelation of Christ when he visited the Americas of the Book of Mormon, yeah So I well, I have two things that are not related.

20:25

So I have like The first thing is that whenever I was I've been Christian about three years so that when I was first Becoming Christian, I guess like accidentally at first that's like I was like the Bible's been translated.

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It's like false You guys are so stupid.

20:40

I can show you this and then where I looked into it the more I was like Word like through because they said so now but even like through outside sources before I was like actually Christian like this Just a reliable historical document so like if you guys want any videos or any like information about like I would love to give you that because I just think That it's like one of the best things you can have in God's word that he wrote down for us And then the second thing completely unrelated derailed Christian I had a friend who like, you know did a lot of drugs fun stuff And then after I became Christian I was talking to him and I was like hey I need to tell you about Jesus like this is really cool.

21:21

And he's like, I believe in Jesus did you know that Jesus is actually a code name for this like psychedelic mushroom that people used to take and like he was like He was like Yeah, he's not a real person.

21:32

He's just a mushroom that he was taking me with like trip out They probably like spiritual vicious or whatever.

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He's like, yeah, I love Jesus because I do a lot of mushrooms so like with that like how would you know that that's not the real Jesus that he's not a mushroom and how and like We're believing in this mushroom Jesus Do you think that I have the power to save you like to take him to a lot of if I took a lot of my Shoes ecology Yeah, no, I think it's just it's interesting everyone's got their own perspective on it, you know I mean my I can't speak for like the church on that.

22:12

My personal take is no You don't speak for the church, I don't expect that at all Right, yeah, we don't speak on behalf of them.

22:23

I mean, I just think that's the cool thing about the gospel, you know, it's like even though you might have a bunch of like Protestants or Baptists that belong to one single faith like not Everyone has the exact like personal belief about it.

22:38

You know, we all see Christ and God differently in our own lives, you know, we have our own personal experience That that is just a personal experience to be like God is the like Jesus is the maker of heaven and earth He spoke us into existence versus Jesus.

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I'm not sure like do you think that that's just like a personal take or do you think that? That's a maybe a different God that we're worshiping I Think I think it's completely different, you know I wouldn't think like the golden calf in Israel.

23:09

I wouldn't be like, oh, that's just that's our Jesus dude.

23:11

Like they're Right So, what do you say there is one One true Jesus that can save us from our sins.

23:21

Okay.

23:22

Gotcha.

23:22

And so like that's why we're Okay, I got you I'm so sorry Hey, we have these like small business cards you might be able to reach out to us with them There's a QR code on the back if you want to scan them and yeah, you know Look more into some of the things we talked about We're here Thursday night I'm Jacob.

23:47

This is Sarah Karen and Garrett Garrett.

23:50

Nice to meet you.