What is Reformed Theology?

and pastel and things like that and it also makes you probably a little bit nauseous too and it's hard to sleep when you're feeling that way.

And then also I know you can't look at it for a long period of time which will help me to stay under the massive amount of times

I've been racking up. In fact I was just sitting there thinking if I'm actually supposed to go 45 minutes to an hour

I only have 5 minutes for this session so if I add up everything that's come before. So we'll try to get us together here.

Turn your Bibles please to Acts chapter 16. Acts chapter 16 our subject this afternoon is not what it may sound and that is a mere definition of Reformed Theology because as it was explained to me a number of months ago the concept was more what is

Reformed Theology in contrast to other things and also what is

Reformed Theology in contrast to being merely Calvinistic. And so I would like to look a little bit at a couple of different subjects under that heading but I always like to in discussing

Reformed Theology speak of this particular incident beginning at Acts chapter 16 beginning at verse 11.

So putting out to sea from Troas we ran a straight course to Samothrace and on the same day and on the day following to Neapolis and from there to Philippi which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia a

Roman colony and we were staying in this city for some days and on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer and we sat down began speaking to the women who had assembled.

A woman named Lydia from the city of Thyatira a seller of purple fabrics a worshiper of God was listening and the

Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul and when she and her household had been baptized she urged us saying if you have judged me to be faithful to the

Lord come into my house and stay and she prevailed upon us. This story so well known to most of us of the conversion of Lydia I think really sums up in one short section of scripture the heart and soul of Reformed Theology and that is that one little phrase that she was a worshiper of God and she was listening as Paul is preaching and the scripture says and the

Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul and the phraseology is very clear it is really and often in acts it is a sub -clause added to Luke's rendition of what was going on.

He is merely narrating the events and it is easy for him to simply say and the

Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul there was nothing unusual about this there was nothing earth shattering about this as far as Luke's theology is concerned he understood the work of God in opening the heart to respond to things the necessity of the work of God in opening the hearts and minds of people to respond to the word of God he was the same one who just a few chapters earlier had done something similar if you just want to look briefly at Acts 13 48 when the

Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord and here again this little clause and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed and the mental gymnastics that have been expended upon that particular passage is pretty amazing but it is very straight forward as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed there is an appointment to eternal life the result is faith it is not faith resulting in an appointment to eternal life it was not that the

Lydia opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul she didn't respond and therefore the

Lord responds to her it is a simple understanding of the

Apostle Luke in writing these passages and in recording these truths that it is

God who is the one who initiates it is God who must be the one who brings about the work of salvation and so this freedom of God the ultimate freedom of God is the antithesis to the most fundamental element of human religion and that is the ultimate freedom of man human religion whether it be religion that calls itself

Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim or any of the other subsets and sub subsets and everything else when you look at human religion the thing that ties it all together fundamentally is the concepts built into with all the differences with all the major differences between world religions the one thing that ties them all together is that when you boil it all down the sacraments the religious duties the things that man does whatever form it might take fundamentally gives him a power it gives him an ability to control the power of God himself

God is not free in these systems outside of saying well he was free to to set up a certain system as he wished to set up a system and and in our religion he's set up these types of things that were to do but in that religion they say he's set up those things it doesn't matter what it is he he may have been free and how he put together the system but once it gets down to the individual human being the individual human being has the ultimate power over God whether everything

God has done to bring about salvation is going to be successful or not it is not a matter of God's freedom it is a matter of the creatures freedom and therefore what really separates the biblical message from all of man's religions is that the

God of Scripture is absolutely free he was free to create many of the pagan gods were not free to create many of the pagan gods if you studied their forms of theology were individuals who themselves came out of the creation and the form of the creation was forced upon them and what the

God can do is forced upon him either by geographical location or various and sundry other things there is no real freedom of God in those pagan types of religions at all the

Christian message is that God is absolutely free in the fact that he created it all that he was not lacking anything that's why the

Trinity is so vitally important to our understanding because without that I I really don't see how a

Unitarian can really deal with the biblical teaching of the perfection of God because from their perspective since you don't have a doctrine the

Trinity you have many questions about how God could have been fulfilled in eternity past before creation but he creates freely because he desires to do so he desires to bring glory and honor to himself solely through what he designs and what he does and he not put himself in a position of being dependent upon his creatures that obviously separates

Christianity from a large portion of the world's religions but even as we go farther than that we then look at what he does in Jesus Christ the uniqueness of that work the fact that it is a soul solely in the

Christ work and I'm emphasizing there the fact that there's many today who would like to put us under tremendous pressure to compromise that fundamental portion of the gospel the media and our society around us are putting tremendous pressure upon us to close our mouths about the uniqueness of the

Christian message there whether we want to acknowledge it or not there is a tremendous amount of pressure being placed upon us through the media through our culture through the religiosity that has come after 9 -1 -1 to mute the proclamation that salvation is found only in Jesus Christ and found only in the gospel of Jesus Christ we saw it in the prayer meetings that took place after 9 -1 -1 where you have

Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists and quote -unquote Christians and you have

Christians praying to the to God the father of Abraham and Muhammad and all the rest of this stuff is if well as you know we all just have our little takes you know we've got our little view you've got your little view you've got you've got 20 % of truth we think we have 25 % of the truth and so on and so forth and don't don't ignore as subtle as that may be the pressure that is put upon you you may not even take in the the pressure in a cognitive sense you may not be sitting there going wow

I think they're putting pressure upon me to to really compromise my faith and to be ashamed of saying that Jesus Christ is the only way they may not make it that clear but we still need to recognize that that is coming against us and we need to actually emphasize that therefore in our proclamation that Jesus Christ is the only way and that God freely chose to enter into his own creation in Jesus Christ so God is free in all of these things and of course when it comes down to the individual the salvation of the individual person

God is free in that situation as well there was nothing about Lydia some people might say oh well see she was a worshiper of God well why was she a worshiper of God that very term is used primarily of Gentiles who had come to hear the the message of the

Old Testament and they would be people that Luke would take special notice of who would attend synagogue services and even though they could not participate because they had not entered into the

Jewish community per se still they were those who who heard the message and they were drawn to this this teaching about one

God not many gods and to the the the fact that this this God tells us how we are to behave and and what his law says matches so perfectly what our consciences say to us as well and some people might say well she was a she was a worshiper of God and therefore

God opened her heart because she first did something but in reality she was in a situation where she could not respond to the things spoken by Paul she was in a situation where she could not understand spiritual things until this tremendous miracle of regeneration takes place this miracle that the

Old Testament describes is the removal of a heart of stone and the giving of a heart of flesh and that freedom in salvation to use that technical term that monergism that fact that it is

God and God alone that brings about salvation over against all the religions of men that are synergistic where it's a cooperative effort where God tries and tries and tries but without man's effort without man's cooperation

God fails where the in fact for those who call themselves Christians the teaching in essence is that God the

Father decrees the salvation Christ dies to obtain it the spirit comes and desperately tries to apply it but even though the triune

God himself seeks to bring about this end result without the almighty will of the creature the triune

God in so many instances unless of course someone goes so far as to embrace universalism and says that all will be saved and even the devil himself and there are those who have begun to embrace that it obviously they've been people who embrace that for a long time but it seems to be a growing movement as well and so this ultimate freedom of God becomes the foundation

I think of what theology is but as I said I was really asked not so much to discuss individual facets of reform theology whether it be the sovereignty of God or the deadness of man and sin or the nature of the atonement or what how it is that saving grace is all -powerful and so on and so forth but really to expand upon that theme and to in essence discuss what it means to truly embrace this theology now so there might be some who might say yeah well that would be a good thing for you to sit down listen to somebody else talk to because as a reformed

Baptist you aren't truly reformed and I've had many people express that kind of perspective to me that well unless you embrace other particular beliefs you're not truly reformed yourself well

I've discussed that a few times in the past even done debates on those subjects and I think can express a counter position fairly clearly but the issue is not so much that as it is is it possible to be inconsistently reformed and I don't mean the old discussion of while I'm a three -pointer well

I'm a four -pointer well I'm a one -and -a -half pointer and all the rest that kind of stuff I'm not referring to that but is it possible to be a person who says you know

I've come to understand the freedom of God and salvation I've come to understand the the deadness of man and sin the fact that election must be unconditional if it's conditioned then

God is not truly free and and that he isn't then stuck in essence responding to the creature and and I understand the intention of Christ at the cross and the the grace of God and regeneration and the perseverance of the

Saints that I've come to understand all these things and yet be inconsistent in seeing what those beliefs mean for all of life and I think obviously on one level of answering that question not only is it possible but I would submit that if in reality one of the processes of sanctification is the application of God's truth to all of our lives then

I would say it's not only possible but we're all in that boat that is which one of us can claim to be thoroughly and perfectly applying and understanding

God's truth in every area of our life I certainly don't make that claim there is always inconsistencies when whenever a whenever a reformed person whenever a

Christian in general for example engages in the sin of worry we are demonstrating that we really don't trust that God is the one who holds the future and that all things do work for the good of those who love

God those who are the called according to his purpose isn't that the case and so obviously it's possible for that kind of person to exist because we're all in that boat but I think even beyond just the the statement that well we all fail in our application of these truths to our lives there are those who

I think embrace a reform soteriology who then stop there for various and sundry reasons maybe because that in itself was such a major distance to move that there is a tendency because of traditions maybe it's because of family situations church situations whatever it might be to in essence come to a screeching halt at the end of that and say well

I believe all these things I don't want to follow through and look at what all of this means and apply it to the rest of my

Christian life and in a church this might express itself by in well you know some of the elders embrace this theology and understand this theology but you know we really try to avoid discussing it from the pulpit and we really don't want to impact the way that our church worships you know there's a lot of folks here who've been here for a long time that just don't like them their things and so we don't we don't want to you know

Russell ruffle any feathers in essence and besides that this new program we've adopted with the with the praise band and the shorts and the sandals and Hawaiian shirts is working real well it's bringing a lot of folks in and so we just don't want to apply those things in that way and I understand that's a certain there are all sorts of certain issues in regards to how a church functions you don't wear shorts and okay

I just you know I didn't want to make make a really big mistake here right in the middle of things you know and have things to flying out of the audience at me that kind of a situation is very very prevalent we have all sorts of contact throughout the

United States with people and and it's it's always interested me when someone will say to me well you know the pastor the pastor the church understands these things but you know it's just not something that you really hear discussed in the church and I'll be honest with you

I sort of sit back and I go I don't understand that not not that I'm saying well you've if the pastor comes to understand the doctrines of grace you have to run around going are you in the doctrines it almost sounds cultic you know are you in the doctrines let me give you an

Arthur W Pink book you know that kind of thing you know the maniacal Calvinist running around the back of the church causing problems that's not what

I'm talking about but I don't understand honestly how in the exposition of Scripture how could you preach through Acts and come to this passage and not bring out the fact that here we have a clear statement of the sovereignty of God opening the heart of an individual to respond to the things spoken by Paul why does that passage say that what does it mean if we're preaching the whole counsel of God and if we believe that our first and fundamental requirement is that when we preach through the scriptures we preach on everything that we don't do the pick -and -choose method that we do not have the freedom to sit there and look out upon the congregation and go okay the ones who sit over here these are topics that are taboo for them and these are sit over here these are topics that are taboo for them and sort of collate all these things together and you're left with a

Swiss cheese New Testament and you sort of skip over the parts that that would cause you some rough times and especially if you've got a building project going on oh good grief we have to be really careful during that time because I preach just one clunker sermon and we're gonna be off of our off of our track for raising the needed money we understand the everyday pressures that are there but obviously

I don't think that we have that kind of freedom to be able to do that kind of thing we need to allow all of God's truth to be spoken and so when

I think of what it means what reform theology means I'll be perfectly honest with you

I look at the church that I'm a part of and we are not a perfect church we are a small body of believers we are in a in a tough part of Phoenix and Phoenix is a is a tough religious area

Phoenix is an area where everybody is from someplace else nobody knows their neighbors there's no sense of community because the people came from someplace else and there's always at least a six foot high fence probably more like an eight foot high fence between everybody's yards and a lot of folks are ended up going someplace else anyways pretty soon and so there's there's no sense of community at all and when

I was a hospital chaplain which by the way was the toughest job I ever had in a large hospital there in Phoenix one of the things that always amazed me was

I would come into a I'd come into a person's room and they'll put down you know what they were as far as their religion and I'd get this this printout whenever I'd come in that would tell me you know here this person's a

Baptist this person's Roman Catholic this person's Lutheran this person's Mormon whatever and I'd come in and try to strike up a conversation which is not easy for me to do and eventually

I'd ask so you know do you have a church home here in Phoenix because I'd want to try to find out does the pastor know you're here do you have folks that are coming to visit you because you know if they do

I don't need to be investing my time there I need to find the folks that aren't having anybody visiting him in essence and over and over and over again

I'd hear the same story well you know I went to First Baptist or Raleigh Durham and we moved out here and you know

I've just just haven't found any place yet well how long ago did you move out here 27 years ago you know it's like been looking for 27 years huh

I see so many folks move out there who had actually been involved in churches back east back in the middle

Midwest or or the south or wherever someplace that they weren't anymore and once they got to Arizona it was like well nobody knows me and I don't know anybody else therefore

I'm not gonna worry about it I'm not gonna be involved in the church any longer in any way shape or form so it's a tough area and we're a small church a lot of our folks travel from a long long ways to to get to where we are we're not located really well at all but when you're small and your buildings pay for you put up with that and when

I look at our church I look and ask myself the question what what do

I think we're doing right and is it because we're reformed and in essence the answer to both questions the answer to the second question about anything we're doing right is because yes we are reformed for example when you look at our worship service and you look at the people who want to attend that worship service the people who are there have to want to hear the word in other words we don't have a bunch of programs that sort of draw people in for other reasons we're very straightforward about saying look we exist to worship

God in the proclamation of his word as we see it in scripture and that's really all we're about and if you're looking for 14 million programs and all sorts of extracurricular activities and so on so forth we we just don't have them and I you know

I came to Phoenix Reformed from a big church I went from a church at 20 ,000 members to a church that 50 members that's a bit of a culture shock especially when you grew up in that very large church singing in a 250 voice choir with a full orchestra running sound there running television camera live on the air thank you very much sir you for your service thank you very much you know which was a thankless job you know when you ran

I ran sound at that in that place and when you did it right nobody said a word to you when you did it wrong everybody knew where to look it was a thankless job believe you me it's culture shock and there was there was always something going on there all the way through high school

I was down at that church every night but once per week because there was always something to be involved in if you wanted to be involved in it to go to Phoenix Reformed and you have

Sunday morning and Sunday night and Wednesday night and once in a while we have a hymn sing and we have a picnic twice a year and that's about it was was quite a culture shock but when

I first walked in there and there was there was a sense of reverence and when

I listened to the to the service I recognized well we have our singing we only have a couple of pianists please visit sometime we could really use you we only have you know basically the pastor's son is young one who can really play proficiently and hence we do a lot of acapella and some of us are not gifted for starting acapella hymns including myself in fact

I started I had to preach a few weeks ago I started us off on the wrong song once that was really lots of fun well wait stop let's here let me think about this one for another second you know figure out what the tune was that was very embarrassing

I wasn't used to that either and I wouldn't mind if we had both a piano and organ going if the

Lord would just bring us some piano pianists and some organists we could definitely utilize them but that's not the point we everything in the service led to built up to the proclamation of the

Word and that is the major that that's that's what we're there to be involved in because we believe that unlike many churches in in the land where and this seems to be the case amongst many conservative churches many people have the idea let's let's be honest

I'm gonna come in and I'm going to be passive I'm going to sit there in the pew and I'm not really gonna do anything

I may stand up a few times I may mumble through a few hymns a few times and bow my head a few times but basically

I'm a bump on a pew is how many people feel and we have the very strong commitment to the fact that when you enter into the proclamation of the

Word of God when you come to the service that it's something that you should prepare for that it's something that involves work and that we are actively involved in worshiping

God when we come into his presence with a desire to hear from his

Word and be changed thereby now that is a concept that I think most of you would recognize is very much a part of reformed thinking because the fact that we believe that God has sovereignly given us his

Word and he has laid down parameters as to how he is to be worshipped and that he is worshipped when his truth is proclaimed that wasn't something that I heard before I came into reformed circles in the context that is used there and so there is a you'll notice if we look at the society around us what's going on in what's the big movement even amongst even in PCA churches today the big movement is the church growth movement well what's what's that all involved well in essence when you boil it all down it's more music less preaching it's sort of preaching light l -i -t -e more music less preaching that the preaching must be the fat part and I'm not sure what the music part is as far as the diet goes but even in a seminary that remain unnamed a friend of mine took a church growth class and in the very first class this is a

Southern Baptist situation in the very first class was told that by their research they had to come to the conclusion that the single best way to increase church attendance and church membership was to get rid of old -style hymns replace them with contemporary praise choruses and to limit the sermon to 20 minutes that's how you grow a church is you limit your sermon to 20 minutes and you use praise courses that's how the whole class started and I don't have anything against praise choruses per se other than the fact that very few of them have much in the way of meaningful theology involved in them as the sermon or the sermons in song call hymns that we sing do in fact but that's the inevitable result

I think of the diminishment of a recognition that when we gather for church what we're doing is is not seeking to put our names on some chart and watch numbers we are there to worship

God and so I think that you could have someone who who would say oh

I embrace the five points but if on the other hand there is this this willingness to go well but we need to minimize the proclamation of the word there's a disjunction there something's something's missing there's the connection has been has been lost between these two particular perspectives because we know the means by which

God calls his people unto himself and it's not by any methodologies we invent it's by the proclamation of his truth by the gospel that will always be the power of God in the salvation it's never going to change but we also recognize that evangelism is not merely the narrow spectrum definition that is so often used in non -reformed circles which means handing a four spiritual laws to a person you think is a pagan that's not evangelism that's one little element of well you mean you don't you mean you don't share with people no you you proclaim the gospel to everyone but that means everyone you need to define it biblically in Romans 115

Paul talks about evangelizing the church at Rome well it's already a church so there is a need to proclaim the gospel and not just the rudimentary elements of the gospel but the fullness of the gospel to Christians that is evangelism and that is a duty incumbent upon us as well we are to watch our teaching we are to proclaim the whole truth all these things come together and I think

I would also point out that when we believe in a sovereign God then we recognize that a sovereign

God has the right to tell us what is pleasing worship to him not the other way around so much of American Christianity is hey look you know worship is what we feel worship to be we want worship to meet certain felt needs within ourselves

I remember when I first when I first came to Phoenix Reformed I was on a Sunday night and the pastor's wife who has an incredible memory remembers what

I was wearing and where I sat which is just scares me after you know 11 12 years that you'd remember exactly those things but anyone who visits she remembers names and stuff like that I can't even remember your name silly

Brit there you go I remember what it was I struggle with stuff like that it's very very helpful to have someone like that who can remember these things but the very first night one of the things that first attracted me was

I discovered very quickly that like many Reformed Baptist churches I don't know what your tradition is but many

Reformed Baptist churches we have generally we're in the old the New Testament in the morning in the

Old Testament in the evening and so it was Old Testament and Pastor Fry gets up to speak and he was in Amos I had never heard a sermon out of Amos let alone a verse by verse sermon out of Amos if I had ever heard a certain of Amos and forgotten it it was a let's grab a phrase here plug it into the current fundraising thing and go from there but the idea of actually trying to exegete

Amos and turn it into sermon material I just sat there and I was like ah you've got to be kidding this was just not something that I was taught to do and even though at that time

I was I had just graduated from seminary the idea of preaching through Amos was just oh that's cool the thing that made it even better was

I came back the next Sunday night and the pastor got up and said we're gonna be in Psalm da da da da I said

Psalm we didn't finish Amos off last week what's what's going on and the pastor after we turned to it said now some of you know we've been working our way through Amos and we've come to a section of the book of Amos to be perfectly honest with you

I have the foggiest idea what's going on and I'm still working on it and it's gonna take me a while to figure it out and I was just like breath of fresh air just blowing by my little pew there because I was in a situation where in essence to be perfectly honest with you the pastor of the church

I was at would no more have admitted in front of everybody that he had encountered a passage of scripture he just didn't understand and the man on the moon

I mean he would have felt that that was just abject surrender as if I guess his power was dependent upon everybody thinking he knew all things was omniscient or something and in case any of you were thinking sorry pastor pastor if any of you any of the pastors in here

I need to apologize to in case any of you are thinking that your pastors are omniscient they're not I just just thought you might want to know that just sort of off top of your head

I'm sorry did I crush did I crush something there that I'm sorry just never he's devastated yes it's a shame sadly though there there are some pastors who think that their perceived power is based upon the people thinking that and it was so wonderful to experience that refreshing admission that it's gonna take me a while to figure this out this is tough this is hard this is tough sledding and I really appreciate that buddy went back to it he kept hammering on it and and then there are times you may say you know what there are two but there's two different ways we can go here and I'll be honest with you

I'm not sure which one is exactly it it wasn't some major issue it was just what's

Amos talking about here what's the proper application so on and so forth that was that was a major part of what brought me to that fellowship was that kind of a of an attitude but the fundamental thing is that when we look at what how we define the church and how it is to be worshiping and how it is to function what its priorities are to be

I don't think that you can say I hold to the absolute freedom and sovereignty and holiness of God over here and yet I'm gonna reach over here and I'm gonna grab all the isms and all the stuff over here that the world is throwing in my direction all the the stuff we get in the mail

I don't know if you if you get as much of it given that you do get some of it but man the stuff that comes to churches in the mail it's incredible if you've never seen it

I mean you can shell out dollars big bucks and people come in and they'll survey your area for you and they'll do house to house stuff for you and they'll they'll tell you exactly what color pews you should have and what color choir robes you should have and what music you should sing and what your pastor should look like as if there was something you could do about that you know

I mean well the perfect pastor for your area is 27 and a half years old he has black hair is 6 foot 4 and bronzed you know oh great wonderful that doesn't help us out much does it you know those of us don't have any hair you know they'll tell you exactly how long your sermon should be and the whole nine yards and it only cost you you know 15 ,000 bucks to do it but they'll come and do that for you the the programs and the the gimmicks that people come up with to try to somehow grow the church

I don't see how you can take those two things and put them together one of them is gonna override the other in essence and so when when someone says to me oh well yeah my pastor says he believes all five points and then says well do you ever hear this in the pulpit

I don't mean every day I mean every Sunday but is is there a is there ever a willingness to address these things oh no no no we couldn't allow it to happen

I have to honestly stop and go then do you really believe those things it's one thing to intellectually say oh yeah

I can see that there is a theological basis for believing certain elements of this but I don't think that's really belief faith in Scripture is a passionate thing it's a whole being thing to say you believe something means you not only acknowledge its truthfulness but you embrace it as your own and I I couldn't imagine how

I could even open my mouth for more than just a few minutes without something slipping out that would immediately turn on that little red light someone goes oh wait a minute that sound close to the word election you know or something like that I don't know how

I could do it and so yes I think that there are inconsistencies in that way and hence our worship the the way in which we worship the attitude of worship the definition of the purpose of the church has to constantly be redefined not changed but redefined and proclaimed in light of God's sovereignty for one reason and that is as people come in they're coming in either from from traditions that don't have a biblical definition of what it is the church is doing don't have a biblical definition of the fact that God is the one who builds the church it's not us who builds it it's

God who builds it he's the one who's been faithful to it and so it's his work not our work we have the wonderful privilege of serving him in his church but we dare not ever get to the point we think well this is my baby and I'm gonna determine how it's done but not only that we live in a society that is constantly chipping away at this freedom of God and it's constantly puffing up our willingness to say me me me minister to me when

I ran when I ran sound at that particular large church I've already gone 45 minutes I can't believe this when

I ran sound at that particularly large church we'd have these groups that would come in and sing and we were up in the sound room the sound booth was up in the balcony it was wasn't behind anything so you could hear but there's a spot in the middle the balcony and man if I went like this the soundboard was wider than this okay it was one of those big 32 channel babies with a patch bay back here and it was big place and I remember very very clearly when a lot of these groups would come in I hate to burst anyone's bubbles but not everyone who sings in a

Christian Church is a humble person I know everybody thought that everyone who sings up there is just is just you know does just doesn't want anyone to see them but just wants to see the

Lord but in reality my experience was most of them were we're not that way and the the biggest thing we'd hear up in the in the sound booth especially as a group was more me in the fullback more more me and we wanted to have shirts made up that simply said more me you know just hand them to people here you seem to like to hear yourself sing a lot you know and normally those are the ones we were trying to go to the other direction less you less you sounds a lot better with much less you mmm yeah less you you know there was this this this focus upon individuals rather than a focus upon God that was just you know might get your feet tapping everything else but in reality it was it was focused upon me me me and what

I am performing and then in most those programs today it's focused upon making sure that the person they walk out of the back of the room that day feels like coming back and maybe giving some more money and the simple fact the matter is when you read the scriptures

I'm sorry there are some there are some passages of scriptures that just when when the

Holy Spirit blesses the person who's speaking it's like the

Holy Spirit is taking a big old javelin and throwing it right at you and you feel like you are skewered to the back of that pew and that man up there has been following you around all week and he knows exactly what you've been saying exactly what you've been doing and despite the fact that you put on your best

Christian at church face in reality your your thoughts and intentions have been exposed and conviction comes and you don't walk out of there humming some happy little tune you walk out convicted recognizing that you've been acting the hypocrite and you plead for God's mercy that has to happen it doesn't happen every single time but that needs to happen and if we put programs in place that basically are just artificially meant to prop people up and to make them sort of feel better about themselves then we're completely short -circuiting the very purpose of God and so it has often been a point of discussion between myself and my fellow elders concerning the fact that we know how we could fill that place up we know how we could fill that place up you know

I go to Long Island and I speak at churches out there and and there there are people out there very large churches and and we'll fill them up and people say well so tell us about your church how big is it oh we got about 50 members don't don't you teach and preach there yeah you have 50 members uh -huh no that's that's right we know what we could do to broaden the appeal shall we say but we're not willing to do it because the main price would be stop preaching the word and stop applying the word you will rarely hear a sermon on the five points of Calvinism in our church but you will very often in every sermon hear an application of God's truth in a very pointed way there will be sermons on prayer there will be certain sermons on the duties of the

Christian life and it will be very forthrightly expressed exactly what

God has revealed in his word and there are many people who come and visit oh if we if we were just filled up with all the visitors we'd be huge we'd be ginormous as they say but a lot of the visitors don't come back and it's not because of anything other than things like oh so you don't have you know this particular program for the kids you don't have you know third and fourth grade choir or something like that there's nothing wrong if you can put together a third and fourth grade choir that's fine but no no we don't don't have enough third and fourth graders to do that but mainly it's does that guy yell like that all the time this does he does he really discuss those kinds of issues all the time and yeah yeah that that's what was that does he wear sweaters like that all the time is that I figured that one out a few hecklers in the crowd there

Colin yes now you realize I'm gonna have to take this out on him he's the only person

I have access to oh it's okay all right good all right

I have pastoral permission great that's wonderful no

I generally actually even I blush from from I don't wear this in that context no no

I I do wear it when I'm not going to be speaking but I don't necessarily wear it in other contexts I haven't gotten there quite yet I the freedom is growing however to you know wear the sweater of many colors in you know it's biblical anyways to do that kind of thing but and notice it caused jealousy in the

Old Testament too and here it is again you're just wishing you could do that that's what you're you know you're boy

I'd be so cool to preach in one of those you know anyways so it does impact

I think I think there needs to be a the connection that if God is sovereign the matter of salvation that means

God is sovereign in the matter of worship he's of defining what the church is and there are churches that are at different points along the spectrum there are those

I know who would say so are you that's fine we can have discussions about that but what

I try to do is I try to encourage those churches that are there that are really attempting to work through these issues and to see how these things apply to the the life of the community they're in and I'll admit it's a little bit easier for us in our church we've been doing the same thing now for well pastor

Fry's been there more than 27 years and so you know what you're getting it's not like we're in a situation where we've got 20 % who are on the program and 80 % that we're trying to get on the program and understand what it is we're talking about that's that's not our situation and I've met with pastors where that is their situation that's not an easy an easy thing to face

I understand that but there needs to be that connection there needs to be that challenge to think through those issues and to apply them to the life of the church and then obviously that means application to our personal lives as well if we recognize our unworthiness if we recognize the sovereign grace of God the eternal love that has been given to us that changes how we view

God it changes how we view each other our relationship to his church our function and worship the privilege of worship all these things that's why

I think has been very properly said that a an arrogant Calvinist is a contradiction in terms if that that's a contradiction of the very theology you say that you're embracing my first exposure to what

I thought I didn't know any better but my first exposure to that term came in Bible college and not in the systematic theology class or what we called

Christian doctrines but from an individual who was sitting behind me in chapel

I knew him he was a couple years ahead of me and when I started sharing with Mormons and ministering to Mormons I came into chapel early one day

I was really excited because I just met with some more missionaries and man I had been able to share with them all these things and we were getting ready to go out to Mason I was really excited and so I'm telling him about this because I knew he was a

Bible student and he just sort of sat there and when he finally got a chance to put in a word edgewise he said

I really don't know why you're bothering to witness those Mormons if they're of the elect they'll get saved now in the

Southern Baptist school that was like throwing a bucket of ice water on me and stopped me in my tracks

I said what and he said well if they're of the elect they're gonna get saved you're wasting your time I didn't realize that he was in point of fact a hyper

Calvinist that did not believe there was a a role for evangelism and proclaiming the word and all the rest that stuff and interestingly enough he didn't persevere in the faith anyways sadly but that was my first exposure and I didn't want to have anything to do with it because I knew that I had a real desire to share with these folks and that desire didn't come from the devil so I didn't want to have anything to do with that obviously years later

I discovered that he was the one who was imbalanced as I came to understand these truths but my first exposure to it wasn't a wasn't a pretty thing but certainly

I think if we fully understand what those doctrines are it's going to impact our personal lives and I think if we really understand it is not going to result in the chosen frozen mantle it's not going to result in the passionless commander data style of Christianity that says well you know as long as I've got all my theological ducks in a row

I don't need to worry about sharing with anyone I don't need to have any passion for proclaiming the gospel or seeing people come to know

Christ that indicates I think a lack of understanding of those truths not a real understanding of those truths and so I hope if just a few of these rambling thoughts of mine have been of somewhat of use to you let me just close with with again emphasizing that the fundamental issue the fundamental issue really as I see it and as I experience more and more conversations with people about God's truth is where is what do where is our heart in regards to what we want to see defended do we want to see

God's freedom his sovereign rule defended or do we want to see the creatures will and power and capacity defended this whole issue of synergism and monergism the power of grace or the limitations of grace all these come down to really what is our heart beat for does our heart beat to see

God's honor God's power God's freedom defended or does our heart beat instead for a religious system that grants the ultimate power and authority to man that's really what it comes down to and I know that most of those with whom

I speak who initially anyways resist the freedom of God do so out of tradition not out of because not because of some deep -set commitments against these things but there are those who today are putting into formal theology within evangelicalism a an open attack upon the freedom of God I think it's exactly what open theism is open theism is in reality the the logical conclusion of Arminianism and that is don't talk to me about God knowing the future because if God does know what's going to happen in the future then man's autonomous free will does not exist if God truly knew that Cyrus long before Cyrus was born was going to let the people of Israel go then he had no true choice and therefore we have to deny that God truly knew that he may be able to predict such things but he does not know such things when you really start digging into what motivates

Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd and these others it is fundamentally to establish the ultimate authority of man in all things and it is a it is a horrible thing and so that freedom of God if your heart beats for that then it's going to impact the entirety of one's life and therefore the entirety of the ministry of the church as well and so with that let's let's have a word of prayer and then if there are some some questions we can we can deal with those our

Heavenly Father we do thank you that so long ago you saw fit and your mercy and your grace to reach down and open the heart of Lydia we are thankful that we see these words in the pages of scripture because we know that there was a time when in your mercy and your grace you reach down and you opened our heart as well to respond to your truth we thank you that you did that in your mercy and your grace and we ask that our lives would be an offering of thanksgiving in response to that not in addition to that but solely in response to what you yourself have done for us we thank you for loving us we thank you for providing a perfect gospel a perfect message a perfect Savior that we do not have to add our merits to we do not have to add our activities to that instead we have the wonderful privilege of going out and proclaiming a perfect Savior and then seeing you show yourself powerful and drawing others unto yourself we thank you for this opportunity we thank you for being with us this day we pray in Christ's name okay

I'm going to come around from behind here and that's a that's a large

Bible sort of intimidating it's a oh did you all catch that a good pastor gift

I think that means some of you may need to get hold of me as to how you can get one so did you get a chance to hold that pastor this is a this is a pastor's

Bible because it hangs in your hand like this it just and feel feel the thickness that leather it is it is it's a beauty no two ways about it yeah see

I think he has an idea there my parishioner you did you did you want to see the pastor don't like my

Coogee and don't like my Bible either oh other people can own them too no questions

I can tell you all in what well if you claim to hold the doctrines of grace but as more of an issue of well

I'm saying that you're inconsistent what I was actually what I said is if you claim to there are certain results that come from that obviously

I would believe that if I didn't believe that the quote -unquote five points represented fundamental biblical truth and I wouldn't hold to them and so I would say that I would very openly say that a person is being less biblically consistent in not holding to the five points then in holding to the five points or I wouldn't believe in them but I'm I'm would say that specifically with the connection

I was making in this talk was that there needs to be a consistency if a person if a person or a church says

I hold those then there are some ramifications from that mm -hmm you'd have to ask the pastor the church but I would let me let me let me just address oh no

Richard Baxter is a Puritan yeah but well what so there's there's a number of unspoken premises here

I'm just waiting for them to come out because because that that in my experience

I have met very few true Amoraldeans or four -pointers in my experience almost every single person who called himself a four -pointer when

I squeezed hard enough they turned into a one -pointer because in reality the issue of the intention of the work of Christ and the perfection of his work is not nearly the difficult issue that many people think that it is and the vast majority of alleged objections to the assertion that Christ died substitutionarily because see everybody who says

Christ died for me is borrowing Reformed language historical Arminianism does not have a substitutionary atonement and historical

Arminians recognize that if Christ substitutes in the place of all people then all people will be saved because to say otherwise to say

Christ death does not affect salvation does not actually bring it about it only makes it a theory and even they recognize that wasn't the case and so there is a even a historical inconsistency for those people who say

Christ died in my place because if you're saying you believe in substitutionary atonement that means the wrath of God for your sin fell upon Jesus Christ in your place so the obvious question as a result of that is if that's the case and you do not quote -unquote actuate that by your act of faith then upon what basis could you ever be condemned why would you ever be in hell what wrath would be upon you well it's the wrath of your unbelief is unbelief a sin did

Christ bear all of my sins in his body on the tree if substitutionary atonement is true then there are only two possible results of that either you're a universalist and Christ died for every single individual and every single individual will be saved and very few people who are universalist even bother to debate these things or you must understand that Christ's intention was to save a particular people so the question that I asked of dr.

Geisler when he objected to this in my in my book was is it the position of someone that there can be

John Brown who God foreknows in his because dr.

Geisler affirms divine foreknowledge that God knows the future he's not open theist can there be a person

John Brown who God knows is not going to accept Christ and yet knowing that he is not going to accept

Christ God the Father lays John Brown sins on his son the wrath those sins comes upon his son on Calvary knowing that that's going to result in nothing whatsoever and that in point of fact

John Brown then is also going to bear the same wrath for the same sins and eternity the same sins are going to be punished twice one in his son and one in John Brown in eternity itself

God knowing that this is going to happen would he do such a thing does the Bible teach he does such a thing and I would submit to the book of Hebrews which is the clearest and fullest discussion of the purpose of the atonement and the result of the atonement says very clearly that Jesus Christ is able to save the uttermost who those who draw nigh unto

God by him who are they well the only ones who draw nigh to Jesus Christ those who are drawn by the

Father of the Son those the ones who are given by the Father the Son in John 637 in the eternity past they are the elect and so it is it really is an issue of what substitutionary atonement is now are there all sorts of individuals do

I believe I became a Christian the day I understood this no I was raised holding the substitutionary atonement as an absolute element of orthodoxy but never even in my in my college education as a

Bible major did anyone ever ever point out to me if you believe in substitutionary atonement that Christ takes the place they never said now bring these concepts together why aren't you a universalist then there was never any discussion of it there was very little discussion of the cross at all outside of oh we believe in the cross we believe in the cross we believe in the cross fine but what was accomplished what was

Christ's intention was it Christ's intention when he came to seek and save or seek and make savable when the angel said his name shall be called

Jesus because why he will save his people from their sins did what what was he meant was he will try to save his people from their sin it's it's there are many people who you know quote -unquote tension that was a wonderful word at Fuller when

I when I went to believe it or not I graduated from Fuller Seminary and and that was a big thing we like to keep things in tension well what does that mean what does it mean with it

Fuller it meant we shouldn't bother to attempt to be consistent in our theology well

I Calvin was right if if if it's a matter of being too brainy because Ephesians 1

Romans 9 John 6 is in the Bible then that's the Holy Spirit's fault for inspiring it I believe if it if it is they are new stops if it is given to us by God that we are called we are commanded it's not it's not a choice we are commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ and if it's God speaking then we don't have any choice but to you know when you talk about well they have a passion for lost souls for what reason for what reason for the glory of God that seat in the scene and I would

I would submit to you that I know many people that I experienced in my in my journey in an evangelical church the reason we had a passion for lost souls because there was a bottom line that we needed to meet by the end of the year not in money but because we want to lead the

Southern Baptist Convention and baptisms and 89 % of the people that we baptized in one year were not there two years later but that that that doesn't change

John 6 in my mind for example yes he was that's very common for people to misrepresent him

Norman Geisler did and I demonstrated that he didn't even try to deal with with Calvin's perspective

I understand I but but but see that doesn't matter much see from my perspective whether you whether you want to talk about numbers of points or anything else the simple fact of matter is if we're going to proclaim the truth we have to proclaim all of it and I personally for example when someone says well but that sounds so brainy

John chapter in John chapter 6 Jesus took men who had seen miracles the day before who were from the perspective of many evangelicals today the prime candidates these were seekers as I mentioned this morning the very term seeker is used of them they were seeking after Jesus but Romans 311 says there is none that seeks after God same term they were seeking after Jesus because they had seen miracles they're seeking after Jesus because they had gotten free food but you see from the evangelical perspective these people had attended hours of preaching these folks have been made deacons in a lot of churches just like that because they were willing to skip they were willing to skip work they were willing to travel across a lake to find

Jesus and what does Jesus do with them within a matter of who knows how long it was but it's only a matter of about 30 verses in John chapter 6 he starts off by saying you're unbelievers what do you mean we're unbelievers you saw the signs but you didn't really understand them you're seeking after the food you're seeking after the wrong things and within a short period of time

Jesus took all these people who were prime candidates from the evangelical perspective today and they all walked away except for the

Apostles why well Jesus what did Jesus talk to him about he talked him about sovereign grace he talked him about their deadness and sin he talked him about their incapacities he said no one is able to come to me unless the

Father who sent me draws them and I will raise them up on the last day it is not for you to be my follower it is for the

Father to determine whether you're be my follower now these these here

Jesus is and this is early in in John and this is only John 6 and what does he do with these individuals he talks to him about very in depth things right there in the synagogue pernium and as a result he's left with 12 disciples instead of literally hundreds who would have made him

King but did he do the wrong thing or is it important that when we evangelize when we proclaim the message that we proclaim all of it

Jesus didn't want surface -level followers he didn't want people who were just sort of marginally interested in him but didn't realize that he was to be their only source of spiritual nourishment

John chapter 2 there were many who believed on him and the term that's used in the

Greek is a point action in John real saving faith is an ongoing action never a point action and when they saw his miracles and let me just make this point when they saw his miracles they believed on him and Jesus would not entrust himself to them in John 8 believed on him by the end of the chapter they're picking up stones to stone him there are many people who will believe on Jesus but Jesus knows no work of grace has been done their heart and so when we talk about a passion for souls didn't

Jesus have a passion for souls but how did he how did he manifest that he didn't manifest that by simply getting the biggest numbers and not pressing upon them the truth of God he pressed upon them the truth of God and every time the

Apostles went out when they proclaimed the gospel they did so in such a way that in general look at Paul's ministry the vast majority the response to him was he was kicked out of town written out of town on a rail but there would be those who because of the work of the

Spirit of God in their in their hearts would be changed same exact same thing that the the

Apostles did that there's there is the the Apostles never ever ever ever said what many people think they are constantly saying about evangelism when the

Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas what must I do to be saved they said believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved that is there there is nothing that is that is quote -unquote different there what is different is they never ever ever said that Jesus is standing at your door and knocking or let me put the way that was frequently said on this matter of election

God has voted for you Satan has voted against you and it's your vote that breaks the tie the

Apostles never preached that way the Apostles never preached that way that would be the difference in in at least at the point

I think of the question that you're asking oh well we're going now aren't we yes sir oh yes it makes the

Calvinist wrong that's super lapsarian and infralapse area

God has used that of course I think one thing it needs to point out is anyone who's ever attempted to deal with a person who has quote -unquote walked the aisle but now thinks they have eternal life and they could care less about Christ and care less about God's truth also knows the reverse danger of that and that's like like I said at the church

I was at 89 % of the people who walked that aisle and and were baptized we're not in any church in in any capacity whatsoever two years after that event you're not talking about repentance you're not talking about death to self you're not talking about any of those things no no no and Jesus is a savior of those who draw near to God through him not those who simply desire to experience certain warm feelings through him

I think that's a very important aspect of it as well there was a hand back here no

I was talking about the fact that there are many who feel that there's there's a movement today that in essence says look let's let's let's bring people in through the use of methodologies and since our society doesn't like X Y &

Z then here's how you here's how you package the gospel and no there are churches out in Phoenix that are more relaxed than then we would be at Phoenix Reformed as far as issues like that go

I don't believe the dress is the issue but I think that when you turn dress into a means of allegedly attracting people rather than recognizing and see there's something else too what is the purpose of the church where does evangelism actually take place is it the function of the church to do evangelism quote -unquote of the lost within the context of the service or is that the duty of every single believer in his everyday walk in his everyday life is the church gathered supposed to be involved in the worship of God those become issues because when

I when I was in Southern Baptist circles in college I don't care what passage you were preaching on you were to craft your sermon so as to and the text you could be on could be a million miles away from a salvation presentation but you had to craft your sermon to where you could turn it into an invitation and if that meant you only spent five minutes actually on the text and you spent five minutes on the text so no

I wasn't I think I think personally we would see an explosion in the church if all pastors just wore coogies personally but you know that's that's not what

I'm referring to at all no but but no God has never saved anyone without a tie no that's what

I was saying but I was saying that when those people when those people come in and do surveys and say well in your area then you should craft your church on the basis of what we say our sir the survey says you know that was what

I was decrying at that point yes Georgia Tech sir you're not from Georgia though are you you're from California oh okay well that counts well

I know of some churches that are very large the Lord has blessed it's very difficult in super large because you get you get a lot of attraction for reasons other than the actual proclamation of the gospel but we are all called to serve

Christ in the church every one of us is called to serve Christ in the church the elders in a special way deacons in a special way but I believe that all of us are called we are called servants and we serve

Christ in his church and the larger churches may have more opportunities for diverse types of ministry than a smaller church does but it doesn't matter in our church for example the people who are there's there's people who are not elders or deacons who for example are involved in ministry at a rehab center there's preaching there's singing there's visitation we find there's always there's always a need there's always a way of service no matter what it what it might be and sometimes it's more of a open type of service because there's all sorts of different kinds of ministries available but at the same time

I would point out that I don't think that I put this way the scripture tells us that the

Apostles dedicated themselves to preaching and prayer and the doctrine many elders in churches especially pastors and churches find themselves as CEOs they are so stinking busy keeping all the programs running that they don't have hardly any time at all to truly be ministering the word that needs to be taken into consideration

I think that many churches are out of balance at that point to where what looked like it was originally a good idea ends up devolving down upon someone's head who wasn't supposed to be in charge of it anyways and when it gets to the point where the pastor has to honestly say you know what

I I don't feel like I have the opportunity of walking into the pulpit anymore fully prepared then something's something's not balanced anymore the biblical the apostolic example is that man needs to be given the time through the ministry of others to be in the words so that he can then share that with the flock and help them to grow in grace

I think that's vitally important I really do but of course who am I I'm just a silly bald guy in a coogee last question yes sir okay second last question because the cameraman has a question

I thought maybe you're just stretching the arm out because it falls asleep and stuff like that well what

I was saying was every individual fellowship needs to think through that it was just an assumption in the

Southern Baptist circles when I was in college that that was the only reason you were getting going Sunday morning anyways was to do evangelism we are firmly of the opinion that when the passage that is being proclaimed as evangelistic it's evangelistic but we don't feel that there we don't feel any responsibility to turn a passage that is specifically directed to Christians into a quote unquote evangelistic sermon one sense of missions in like an outreach type situation is that what you're referring to because see well yeah

I mean we've always been involved in in you know we live in a very like I said our our particular church location is very poor it's a sort of dying area of Phoenix but still we've gone out we've and we've you know the community around us knows that we're there it's primarily a

Hispanic Catholic community now it's changed over the years but certainly we've we've done that and we attempt to impact our community in many ways but we don't do that to the to the distraction or detraction of the proclamation of the word within the service so we try to train people within Bible study for example we've done

Packers evangelism the sovereignty of God in Bible study I've done numerous things in how to share with this situation that situation training going out as groups and things like that sure right you get a bunch of people together who've been saved they want to tell other people about it so that that I think becomes a natural thing you know look at what we do and going up to Salt Lake City or out to Mesa and things like that and people in our churches are involved in doing in doing that kind of work all the time but we don't feel our perspective is that the in the gathering of believers is not the primary focus not the primary time of attempting to reach lost people that's the primary time of worshipping

God yes sir I said one no no two that's an interesting way of putting it

I suppose if obviously that's how you define terms and there are many people would say

I'm a Calvinist without being reformed because there are certain views of other things I would say a person who intellectually confesses the five points but on a day -to -day basis and a living theology basis does not have a sovereign

God that would be a person who would be soteriologically a Calvinist but not reformed but don't worry

I won't my glucose levels crashing fast I mmm

Oh the last stinking question yes

Wow yeah I know

I know it I sort of started touching that a little bit when I talked about particular redemption because it's funny that that's normally the one point is is that because it really sums up like like I said the vast array of people that I know if we object to that one are actually objecting to unconditional election not particular particular atonement let me see if I can give you something that's worthwhile but isn't going to take the rest of the afternoon to to attempt to communicate one of the greatest let me back back up and take a different run at this

I think one of the reasons that the scriptures can say to Christians knowing as God knew the persecution that Christians would face down to the centuries the the fact that even to this day we have in Indonesia Muslims murdering

Christians right and left in the Sudan the hatred that would be faced by so many

Christians down through the years knowing what in God's providence was going to take place

I think one of the reasons the scriptures can still identify as one of the chief characteristics of believers is thanksgiving and thankfulness is this fact that every day the

Christian can open his eyes and step out of bed and know that I have peace with God because of what

Christ has done in my place and because he ever lives to make intercession for me he has not grown weary and no matter what

I face this day no matter how I stumble this day the one who took my place will still be in the presence of the

Father he is still for me not against me the truth of Romans 8 is still true of God before us who can be against us he intercedes for me and the grounds of his intercession is sufficient and perfect hence no matter what my external situation might be

I can be thankful I think the reason the scriptures can say that we're always to be thankful and not people just not laugh how can you look at what happens to Christians and the persecution the and yet the scriptures say that we're always to be thankful it's because we know that Christ intercedes in our behalf and that his work of intercession is not a separate work from the cross his work of intercession can never possibly fail to obtain the purpose of it remember what

Hebrews 7 says Hebrews 7 describes Jesus the one who ever he is able to save to the uttermost why because he ever lives to make intercession for them just think about what those words mean on a basic level he is able to save to the uttermost and what's the reason because he ever lives to make intercession where does man's works and merits ever sneak into that equation

I've never understood why man always wants to stick himself in there when the scriptures say we have a perfect Savior he's able to save forever why because he ever lives to make intercession

Christ's work of intercession before the Father can never fail it can never fail and yet so many want to make it just theoretical they just want to you know does does

Christ intercede and yet fail to save one that he intercedes for can you imagine it can you imagine the second person the

Trinity interceding for any individual and yet the Father fails to save or the

Spirit fails to apply or the Son fails to what what where does it break down I don't know the scriptures are very clear when

Christ intercedes in behalf of an individual that intercession is perfect well what is the basis of intercession the basis of intercession is the atonement it is his work of sacrificing himself on behalf of those individuals intercession and atonement are not separate distinct works intercession flows out of the atonement it is merely the presentation of the perfection of that atonement that is

I mean Hebrews is so clear on these things that that's why I really strongly emphasize it and it really is the antidote to the

Roman Catholic teaching on the mass it is it truly is a vitally important thing and I think that you know people say well you shouldn't talk about because it's controversial well

I don't care if it's controversial if you're stealing from people the very grounds of their confidence then let it be controversial so what speak the truth it's there